History of the crusade

[Grim]

In my wanderings, I have come upon a religious group of people with an amazing memory for anything historical. This is one of their story:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm

Note: I did not know where to put this historical link here or in the Japanese history one. It is one of the best link that I found in relation with the Crusades.

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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes canons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my canons)
-Trad. libre

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

For the time being (until further notice), you are more than welcome to post historical links concerning the medieval period here (though this policy might change).

[WarlordJacquesMolay]

Here it is an other interesting history link
http://www.kwtelecom/chivalry/eohs.html

[WarlordJacquesMolay]

Sorry the real link is:
http://www.kwtelecom.com/chivalry/eohs.html

[Grifman]

Actually the first link posted above is a bunch of crap. No offense meant to my Catholic brothers, but this is a Catholic site that credits the Crusades with saving Europe from Islam and characterizes them as "defensive wars", among other historical distortions.

HAR, HAR, HAR!!! It was the 4th Crusade that ripped the heart out of Byzantium, that lead to the fall of the Empire, and allowed the Turks easy entrance into Europe, where they conquered Serbia and Hungry and eventually reached the gates of Vienna, threatening the very heart of Europe. Had the 4th Crusade never taken Constatinople, the Empire would have remained a force and surely have not fallen as soon as 1453. It was the Crusades that ensured Turkish domination of the Balkans, not prevented it! Any Easter Orthodox Christian (of which I am not one) would be offended at this Catholic twist on history.

And anyone reading history has to admit, the Crusades were offensive in nature. The Arabs had controlled the Holy Land for 300-400 years - it was the Crusaders who invaded this time, not the Arabs.

Sorry, though most of what is on the site is factual, their interpretation and historical conclusions are fallacious at best, a distortion of the truth at the worst.

Grifman

[Grim]

Grifman, we know that this site is a bit "on one side". When I read it, I focused on the Facts (and you said yourself that at least it is factual) and I drew my own conclusion, not the conclusion that "they were holy warriors sent to liberate all of the fertile crescent".
Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly with what you said the crusades were and I would love to see a link showing the crusades from the other point of view. I tried to find one but failed, so... I'm sending YOU on a quest: find me the holy link so that we may drink from it's infinite wisdom (in other word, please find a crusade link that you think will balance it all... the more pro-muslim you can, the better )

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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes canons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my canons)
-Trad. libre

[Dark Phoenix]

Thats why I hope you can go the Turks in the Crusades to fend off the invaders.

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"DP is correct" - Shiro

[BakaGaijin]

It will be possible. The defenders of Islam even get nice camels to ride on. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

Yes the camel sprites do look Good http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Grifman]

Calm down, Grim, don't get your panties in a wad http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I'm not pro-Islam with respect to the Crusades either. Muslims seem to forget that the Crusades would have never happened if they had not invaded Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, Egypt and North Africa in the 600's AD, all of which had been Christian for several hundred years.

I wasn't looking for a site "from the other point of view" just one with a balanced point of view. In fact what bugged me the most was the claim that the Crusades saved Europe from Islam, when it only accelerated the Turkish invasions of the 14th - 17th centuries by severely weakening the Christian Byzantine Empire.

As for another source, surely you've heard of web search engines, right? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Google just gave me dozens of sites, including this one which looks fairly decent:
http://www.medievalcrusades.com/

And here is a page with a number of crusades links:
http://historymedren.about.com/cs/generalcrusades/

Enjoy,

Grifman

[Grim]

Thanks for the link.

Quote As for another source, surely you've heard of web search engines, right? [/QUOTE]

(sigh!) yes I do, but I have to do my searching at work because I don't have internet at home wich limits my searching time. I usually print what I find to read and keep at home. Awesome link btw, more
"in-depth" in regard to characters involved. I will need a lot of paper. Thanx.

Quote don't get your panties in a wad [/QUOTE] if you still want to make another childish comment like that, please note that I'm a "he".

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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes canons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my canons)
-Trad. libre

[This message has been edited by Grim (edited 12-13-2001).]

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

Carefull no flaming please.

I am an intolerant Mod dictator when it comes to unfriendly words adressed to a patron.

The nice "smilies" after these words are only "disguises" in my view.

Thanks in advance guys.

[Grim]

Sorry Kuma,

I apologize Grifman if you felt wronged in any way.

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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes canons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my canons)
-Trad. libre

[This message has been edited by Grim (edited 12-13-2001).]

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

It's OK Grim thanks, i hope that Grifman gets the message also http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Grifman]

Messages noted, no offense meant nor taken. I just wish the moderator would #$#@!&#!

(And yes, this really is a joke, ok, guys? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif )

Grifman

[Shiro]

Quote Originally posted by Sir Kuma of The Org:
I am an intolerant Mod dictator when it comes to unfriendly words adressed to a patron. [/QUOTE]

I need to adopt that name. Intolerant Mod Dictator might be good for my signature. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Ottoman]

Hello people,
I've read from several christian historians that the real reason of the first crusade is the help request from Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenius from Pope Urban III (I think it was Urban III) against the Turks invading asia minor. These Turks though weren't Ottoman turks, they were Seldjuq Turks. It seems quite accurate if you consider the Malazgirt War (May be Malzigert in english) in 1071 with which the invasion of minor asia has begun.


Ottoman

[Ottoman]

I was mistaken. The Pope was Urban II.
Sorry about that.

Ottoman

[Katama-san]

Fabulous site for source documents on medieval history (and others!). Includes stuff from both sides on the Crusades.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html

[Grim]

*reattach jaw to jawbone*

Well, you've hit the motherload. There is everything in this link... even the fall of the Roman Empire.

Can't talk...must read...

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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes canons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my canons)
-Trad. libre

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

Originally posted by Grim:
*reattach jaw to jawbone*

Well, you've hit the motherload. There is everything in this link... even the fall of the Roman Empire.

Can't talk...must read...

_____________________________________________


Grim is right, what a site!!! Thanks Katama-san. This is front page material.



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Yes the camel sprites do look good

[Grifman]

Ottoman,

You are partially correct. There were a lot of reasons for the Crusades, and the request for assistance by the Emperor Alexius is one of them - but I don't think you could say any one reason dominated.

With respect to the Empire, it is a sad story, but you are correct there. In 1025 AD under Basil II the Eastern Roman Empire was at its height of power, controlling all the Balkans south of the Danube, southern Italy, all of Asia Minor, northern Syria, northern Mesopotamia, Armenia, and the Caucasus, along with several Arab emirates as its protectorates (they paid tribute and supplied troops to fight against their fellow Muslims).

However, Basil II died in 1025 and his descendants were not nearly as warlike or competent. They thought his large armies too expensive (they didn't want any more offensive wars, happy with what they had) so they disbanded some armies - unfortunately, they disbanded the experienced armies! Also, the concern had always been on the SE frontier in Syria, that is where the threats had always come from.

However, in the 1070's the Seljuk Turks became a threat - in the NE, or Armenia - there were no experienced armies there on the frontier. The Seljuks were really more interested in fighting the Arabs rather than the Empire, but the Empire was weak, and when the main army was defeated at Manzikert in 1075 AD, the gates were opened. In a few years much of Armenia and Asia Minor (eastern and central) were occupied, and northern Syria and Mesopotamia fell soon afterwards. The heart of the empire was lost, and it never recovered, to finally fall to the Ottomans in 1453, reduced by that time to the city of Constantinople, and a few pieces of Greece and Asia Minor.

Alexius and his sons did much to stablize the situation, even recovering some territories from the Turks, but in the end it was too little too late.

Grifman

[vapd]

Lets face it everybody, the whole aim of the crusades, just like every war, is to gain money and power... or to secure what money and power you already have. Nothing more mothing less. The Crusades wouldnt have happened if the knights hadnt stood to gain from em.