Lonbows and Xbows

[vapd]

Whilst I've been a lover of STW since I first heard about it; I knew my old PC would not be able to cope with it and bought a new one almost solely to play STW (B4 the game was released!!) I am however a relative newcomer to this forum. But I have seen a few interesting posts about the Xbow and bow on the STW section. This is a little relevent to STW as well although I know nothing of the history of the Xbow/bow in Japan.

In England the Longbow was THE weapon for many years. Ever read ought about Agincourt?? We won that battle at least in part because of our longbow armed infantry. In England it was compolsory for youngsters to practice the Longbow from a quite early age (cant remember what). Every Sunday after Church: Longbow practice. For this reason many rueal churches in England still have Yew trees around em. Longbows made from Yew. You can still see scrape marks on the outside walls where people used to sharpen there arrows...

Now the moral is this: to get good with a longbow takes a lot of practice. Its a hard skill. To get good with a xbow.... dosnt. Thats why people equipped armys with xbows. Take a conscripted peasent and give him a xbow and he'll be alright with it. Give him a longbow and hell shoot himself in the kidneys. Now as to exactly what the comparative range, acuracy and firepower of the weapons are, I dont know for sure. But I am fairly certain that the lonbow is king overall. This is a quote from a historical work:
'English longbowmen were capable of putting up to a dozen arrows in the air in one minute. This kind of rapid shooting was reserved for ranges under 100yds (91m) and could stop a cavalry charge in its tracks. Pits or stakes protected the archers if an enemy did reach them.'
This is what happened at Agincourt. Unfortunatly it dosnt square with how archers work in STW, and probobly wont happen in MTW. Ah well.

[Mojo Jojo]

lol, vapd, you love refering to Agincourt. Maybe you can tell me about htis, as I'm not as much of a history buff http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif. However, I do know how effective the longbow was for England, and the crossbow for everybody. I've read that knights attempted to get the pope to ban the crossbow, because it nullified the effectiveness(as you said, point and shoot) of the knights, because they trained for years in the fighting arts, and a mere peasant with an hours training could kill them easily. As with longbows in MTW, i believe each clan will get some unigue unit, maybe more then one, and I have little doubt that if that is true, England will get the longbow http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Longbow usage in Europe is a bit different than in the Feudal Far East. The main reason - the English longbow was, literally, early artillery. Fired in a high arc, it was used to "rain fire" down upon the enemy. This was useful since most European infantry lacked sufficient armor to withstand such "support fire".

Samurai Archers, while fully capable of being used as a pure support element, were also more of a direct fire group. Each Samurai would pick a target, aim and fire. Arcing fire was used only at extreme range or when LOS was blocked by friendly men. Historically, European archers were screened with infantry and man-made obstacles - Japanese Archers were often out in the open, much like the European gun lines of the Napoleanic era. This is one reason why the Samurai who used a bow was also required to be proficient in the use of the Katana, or blade. European Archers relied on either a short sword or dagger for defense, and were not committed to H2H battle voluntarily. After the arrows were gone, so were the archers. Samurai Archers would often use their last arrow, pull their blade and close with the enemy. SA were also often used to assist in "mop up" action, while European Archers would be useless for such activity.

Each type of Archer was used in a manner best suited to its talents. The European longbowman had greater range than his far eastern counterpart. He was, on a shot per shot basis, more damaging than a Samurai Archer. His commanders (normally) understood his limitations, and did their utmost to protect him from enemy units who, should they get close enough to strike, would tear him to shreds. Samurai archers were more flexible, capable of defending themselves decently against most infantry threats, and able to be used as emergency reserves or exploiters as needed. However, this flexibility came at a price - the Samurai Archer was much more vulnerable to Cavalry charges since they often were left exposed without sufficient screening. In hand to hand combat, had they ever met, it is likely that the Samurai Archer would have killed a European Longbowman fairly quickly, due to the dual emphasis on bow and blade skill. At range, the Longbowman would have likely won easily, since he outranged the Samurai, and all he needed was one arrow in a vulnerable spot.

As for Xbowmen - your almost talking oranges and apples. Both European and Far Eastern bows had greater range than a Xbow. This is due to the fact that a Xbow is ALWAYS a "point and shoot" direct fire weapon. While it does have a much shorter range (due to its non-ballistic trajectory), it does have much greater penetrating factor inside its range. This is due to the weight of the bolt (literally - slug) and its rate of travel. An arrow, even fired in a ballistic arc and using gravity to increase its descent rate, does not carry near the energy of a Xbow bolt. Xbow bolts could easily penetrate the armor of the day and still do massive, usually fatal, damage to the target. Thus the reason why common peasants were given the weapon. However, peasant xbow units had a terrible rate of fire, and usually only got off one volley before they were hammered. A Xbow takes time to reload, much more so than a bow. An untrained commoner took much longer than a trained xbowman to prepare another round. Often, this delay was sufficient for a Cavalry charge or nearby enemy infantry to close and separate the peasant's head from his body.
Historically speaking, Xbows were used effectively only in defensive situations, where they could be screened with objects, terrain or infantry. Often, the most useful time for Xbows was when under siege assault, since Xbows could then fire into masses of troops from the protection of castle fortifications. At that range, with their superior penetration, they were truly a deadly force. Behind castle walls, the Xbowman was able to reload without fear of being overrun, resulting in the Xbow being a weapon of choice for many men under siege.

It was not until gunpowder units became prevalent that Japanese Warlords began understanding that missile units required adequate screening. The Arque and Musket Ashigura did not have the training and skill to face enemy infantry hand to hand, and with a much slower ROF than Samurai Archers, it became necessary to begin building screens to allow gunmen to fire without being pounced upon by the enemy.

The use of Xbows and Guns in Shogun TW is not realistic, due to the limits of the game engine. Still - tis a game and fun so all is well.
Qapla!

------------------
BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[vapd]

Hi, Mojo Jojo,
well Agincourt is the most obvious example. And I mean I'm not going to quote an English defeat am I?? Well I would actually but basically even most people in this country ahvnt heard of any European battles since WWII (and they probobly dont know when it was) so where does that leave the non Europeans....

[Mojo Jojo]

Hey, I'm not stupid when it comes to history, I know enough, it's just that I dont have much specific knowledge, so I usually can't cite battles, and know what they mean. I know about a decent amount of the wars, all of them that the U.S. was involved in, and some foriegn ones, and I know Europe better then Asia. But before Roman Times and before, I usually can't tell you of wars, my knowledge doesn't go that far back http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif.

[Mojo Jojo]

lol, i just looked up the battle of Agincourt, so now I know what you're talking about. It's not suprising the Enlgish won, I usually don't think of mid-eveil Eurepean leaders when I think of great generals. A lot of the battles back then, imo, had little strategy, until people started using the pike/archer formations. Also, the site where I read about Agincourt, http://home.earthlink.net/~cva/agincourt.htm brings up a little interesting thing. If I'm in England and hold up my index and pointer finger for whatever reason, is this the equivelant of saying F-you in America?

[This message has been edited by Mojo Jojo (edited 12-30-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Mojo Jojo (edited 12-30-2001).]

[Katama-san]

Like flipping the bird, only if the back of your hand is facing (whoever you're trying to insult). You won't believe how many people make this mistake-
[newly arrived american tourist] - can i have two big macs please?
[man at counter] - **punch**
By the way, I just read a decent fictionalised account of Agincourt by Bernard Cornwell in his book Harlequin. I don't know if he's accurate in his portrayal but it gives a good feel of the 'flavour' of the times.

[Mojo Jojo]

Thanks katama, that was a good laugh http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif.

[ShadesWolf]

Is that the correct URL address,

All I get from it is its invalid.

Does anybody else have this problem ?

[Mojo Jojo]

Ahhhh!!!! You're right shadeswolf, stupid link http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif. I'll try to ee whats wrong.