Glorious Cities!!!

[Sandouras]

Hello to everyone!
I would like to suggest two things for MTR.

1) Wouldnt it be more interesting if cities where not identical to each other? As i think it is impossible to make every one of them, why not make the most important cities in Medieval history? Wouldn't it be awesome if you could assault the triple walls of Constantinople (pic related), Jerusalem, the eternal city (Rome), or fight on both sides of the river Seine (Paris).....etc?
I am just tired of besieging those bland cities that they have made for us!
Anyone who has played the game "Imperial Glory" will remember how cool it was to fight in the others capital (it had Paris,Bradenburg,Moscow and London)!
It would make those particular sieges so interesting, tactical and different! GLORIOUS! Besieging Constantinople for example (the city that didnt fall for a thousand years) would be something to behold and would not be just another bland siege on the battle map!
And on the tactical side, i think that there should be some "spice" in those sieges, like for example capturing specific points of the city or outside of it that would help you defend or capture the city. If we search at the real sieges of those cities, we could find the right and realistic "spice" to add!

Is it possible? I have no modding skills but i am so frustrated with sieges that i am willing to try it myself if someone can give me any directions.

2) I think that Huge Cathedrals should be allowed only at capitals and have an effect on public order and religion on the whole kingdom.
Also, and adding to the personalisation and awesomeness of the above cities, i think that it would be great to personalise the Huge Cathedrals of those cities on both the campaign map (name and image) and the battle map (building). Imagine St Peter's basilica in Rome, Hagia Sophia in Constantinople and Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem!

I hope you read this post and respond. I might be asking too much, but i think that things like that would add so much to the game. You would really feel the medieval air and glory!!!

[CaesarAugustus]

Having unique cities would really be great, I was disgusted by M2TW's depictions of Rome and Constantinople as small, square-walled little towns in the middle of a flat, green field. Not a domed roof or block of marble to be seen.......:no:

[Sandouras]

Yeah! It should have been obvious to them that those cities should be modeled differently! And at the exact size the actually were! IT WOULD HAVE BEEN GLORIOUS!

[Aracnid]

It would be a complete nightmare to mod, I don' think you could make the cities uniue without basically redesigning in the game and while you could add in special buildings (St. Peters, Dome of the Rock) as one off you would have real problems with footprinting, for example St Peter's (to scale) is far larger than any of the buildings (including the Huge Cathedrals) in the vannilla game, lovely idea but very very difficult, and most people wouldn't notice/wouldn't care, that's probably why there aren't in the vannilla game.

[Sandouras]

Basically the cities are that matter, not the cathedrals. Go here:
http://homepage.mac.com/paulstephenson/madison/byzantium/images/constantinople_map1.jpg
Wouldnt it be awesome to besiege a city like that! Three rows of walls! THREE! No other city was that big and well fortified as Constantinople!

As for the cathedrals.... Yeah they are relatively small in the vanilla. Even though they are called "huge" in the game they are tiny compared to the real cathedrals in real world!
The modded ones would have to be modeled from scratch and added to the modded cities so as to fit. I tihnk that people care. Thats why we play this game and not another with orks and stuff. We want realism and accuracy. But its not just for that! Its about the feel of the thing! Those cities look sterile and bland! They are lame! If i besiege the damn Rome, i wanna feel like it!

[Vazul's Ghost]

I tihnk that people care. Thats why we play this game and not another with orks and stuff. We want realism and accuracy.

I care. I absolutly care. I care allot. And it shouldnt be that hard... For example, if france builds a huge cathedral then it should be a model of notre dam instead of the generic northern european cathedral.

Another great addition in the mod would be cities divided by rivers, it would not only be harder to capture the city as you would need to take the bridge, but it would be so much more accurate. Same with coastel cities. Though these probably would be modding nightmares.

About the three wall thing, citadels have three walls in the game, and they are almost as big as cities as it is. It shouldnt be too much work to modifie a citadel to look a bit more like a city, and call it constantinople. then again i too dont know much about modding so dont rely on what i say.

[Lusted]

Modding unique cities in RTW was a nightmare that took many months to do just 1. I doubt it will be any easier in M2TW.

[Sandouras]

Its not going to be easy, but it would be great if it could be done! I am willing to contribute any way that i can. If any modder sees this, please let us know if and how it could be done.
And about the three rows of walls of Constantinople, take a look here (3 rows and ditch):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Walls_of_Constantinople.JPG/800px-Walls_of_Constantinople.JPG
and
http://www.turkeyvision.com/turkeyinformation-en/images/remparts.jpg
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Car_bed_kap_deu2.jpg
and the best one:
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Medieval/war/TheodosianWalls03.html

Basically the first and smallest row was low and was right at the edge of the ditch. Look here:
http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01955/html/cd2a/kepek/preview/to195fm90102.jpg
and here:
http://templiers.info/cross_and_demilune/crusades/images/crusades_04_walls_of_constantinople_00.jpg

It was the largest,richest and most magnificent city of the Middle Ages and stood for a thousand years before it fell. Besieging it or defending it, should be special!

[alpaca]

We can't edit the settlements at all unless somebody cracks the format.

[Sandouras]

How can we do this?

[AnthoniusII]

How about if some cities are huge from the begining of the mod produsing atleast royal garisons but with less than the half population they can host...In this case the city design could stay the same but force the player to constuct all the other buildings a city needs as even a minor one.For example we could have Konstantinople with the imperial pallase and those three line impresive wall structure with a population of a small city..:idea2:

[Vazul's Ghost]

Does the hard part of modding cities include unique buildings in the construction list? Because unique buildings on their own would give cities a better feel.

[Sandouras]

I think the important thing is for us to feel the difference of Jerusalem for example, in contrast to any other huge city. Jerusalem was the jem that every king would like in his crown! It should be special.
So maybe changing the arrangement of the walls to match the original city, and adding just a single new building (Dome of the Rock) would make all the difference. Rome could be easily done as well.
But the most difficult one, and the most wonderful, challenging and fortified would be Constantinople. Cause apart from the 3 rows on the east side, every other side was coastal and had one huge wall to protect from naval assaults. Hagia Sophia should also be added. Pics: (minarets are turkish additions)
http://www.math.umn.edu/~alayont/turkiye/marmara/ayasofya.jpg
http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/06/adem/personal/turkiye/images/inside%20hagia%20sophia.jpg

So.... any modders, please tell us if any of the above is possible and if any of you has any interest.
Because i personally am not so interested in super historical accuracy (the historical role of the smallest kingdom in the middle ages) rather than the feel of the thing. I wanna feel like i felt in that movie, the Kingdom of Heaven. Yeah, i know it was not that great a movie.

[Sandouras]

How about if some cities are huge from the begining of the mod produsing atleast royal garisons but with less than the half population they can host...In this case the city design could stay the same but force the player to constuct all the other buildings a city needs as even a minor one.For example we could have Konstantinople with the imperial pallase and those three line impresive wall structure with a population of a small city...

I forgot to answer to that. I believe that this is great. Cause it is imposible to make those "special" cities in minor, large and huge forms. Just make them huge and have their population and tech increase like the rest. Besides, they were huge in size at the year the game starts.

[Vazul's Ghost]

Yeah and maybe that way CONSTANTINOPLE WOULDNT GET SACKED IN THE 1200'S!!!! It would actually be a city that is particularly hard to take until gunpowder is invented.

[Lusted]

So.... any modders, please tell us if any of the above is possible and if any of you has any interest.

As alpaca said above, we can't edit settlement layouts.

[Sandouras]

Shit then!!! :no: :no: :no: :help:

[il-principe]

Yeah and maybe that way CONSTANTINOPLE WOULDNT GET SACKED IN THE 1200'S!!!! It would actually be a city that is particularly hard to take until gunpowder is invented.

Constantinople was sacked in 1204 by the crusaders...

[AnthoniusII]

Constantinople was sacked in 1204 by the crusaders...
Yes you are correct but even then the 10 greater cities of the west could fit in the city!!"Alexiad" Yuge cities existed all over east but Konstantinople was the biggest!!Western urban centers(cities)where in the same size with the eastern small towns.:book:

[Sandouras]

Maybe the battle editor would help. Here:

http://totalwarcommunity.blogspot.com/2006/11/modding-medieval-ii.html

[Sandouras]

I begun working on the battle editor, and while you can put any building on the map (even some i had never seen before, like fortified estate), i cant put walls. Therefore, building your own city is impossible. I will try more and maybe find a way.:dizzy2:
For now, the only way to put walls is to put a whole settlement on the map. :wall:
Any ideas anyone?

[AnthoniusII]

Can you create costantinople?Then create a huge city from the begining!!! This whould not be unrealistic...The problem i think may be a huge population ready to revolte...How can you or anoyher of the dev team manage a city's population?Leaving it to revolt and then to recapture it?:laugh4: I am sure you will find a solution...I have faith in the team's abilities...Unfortunatly i have no idea in programing and I haven't a PC of my own to make experiments in the map editor...The only way I can help for now is by my historical knowlege in forts,cities,tactics,weapons and armors...:embarassed:

[Sandouras]

This is a BATTLE EDITOR. Meaning that you can make your own historical battles, and maybe maps for the campaign game. It is a very hard tool to use. It needs a lot of time to get to know it.
I started making the map look like the peninsula of Constantinople (kinda....cause you cant really make it look like the original, nor have the same, gargantuan size) and now i am about to make the ditch and the bridges. You have every possible building at your disposal, but no walls! This is stupid! You can only have walls if you place a whole settlement, which you cannot edit. Meaning that it acts as a whole and you cannot erase buildings in it and put your own.
So, please try too, so that we could find a solution. If i find a way to place walls, i can make the whole city!!! It would be great!
PLEASE HELP.
Info about the editor and the way to open it are above, at a link i gave you. Just remember that every time you want to use the editor you have to replace the text, cause it returns to its original format. So save a copy of both the original and the edited, so that you can simply paste the 2 when you want to use the editor.

[Casuir]

The settlements are essentially one big model, theres no way to place individual parts without cracking the format

[Sandouras]

Yeah i kinda unsterstood that. But why does the editor have every concievable building for me to put on my map, when i cannot put walls? I mean.... COME ON! :wall:
How am i supposed to make my own custom map, when the most important part is unavailable?
So i can make my own fields and forests and place a church or blacksmith in the middle of nowhere! Am i supposed to be satisfied?
I am soooo frustrated!

Anyone else that has given it a try?

PS. Breaking the code will probably allow you to erase buildings in the settlement and place your own. You will still have to make do with the circular format of the walls. So... i dont see any light in the tunnel....
Why didnt they make it like the editor in Age of Empires? Is it so difficult?

Sorry about the rage....Its just that i have spent so much time in it! :inquisitive:

[AnthoniusII]

My dear friend sadournas don't force yourself so hard.Any way i'm happy to see people trying so hard for something all of us to enjoy.

[Casuir]

Yeah i kinda unsterstood that. But why does the editor have every concievable building for me to put on my map, when i cannot put walls? I mean.... COME ON! :wall:

This is because the walls, gatehouse, generic buildings etc are all the same model, the individual buildings that feature in the tech tree are seperate models which are included based on whats in the actual strat map settlement. You cant place walls because there are no individual wall pieces, just the settlement as a whole.


PS. Breaking the code will probably allow you to erase buildings in the settlement and place your own. You will still have to make do with the circular format of the walls.

The file structure for both the tech tree buildings and the settlements themselves look to be pretty much the same, if one gets cracked the other should be too. They're more complex though than units so its not going to be done overnght.

[AnthoniusII]

How about placing all the buildings and the population and when the mod begins the player must build huge walls

[Sandouras]

How about placing all the buildings and the population and when the mod begins the player must build huge walls
I didnt get that.

They're more complex though than units so its not going to be done overnght.
So can anyone have a go at it?

[Casuir]

Course, I suggest starting with something fairly simple like one of the rocks in the ambient_settlements folder. Work out the structure of the files there and move on to something more complex. The .world file looks to contain the actual geometry, the names of the other files are self explanatory as to whats in them, just a matter of figuring out how the info is stored.

[Shigawire]

I care a great deal about the way siege warfare works in this game. In fact it's the one aspect I've dedicated my studying to. Except I have studied ancient siege warfare, not mediæval. Artillery was such a tiny aspect of ancient siege warfare, of little consequence compared to the vast array of other siege-related articles. Just as you'd love to have the 3 concentric walls of Konstantinople, I'd love to have the 3 progressively taller concentric walls of Qarthadast and Thapsus. The coastal walls of Syrakousoi. Every city unique. This is a very important thing. Sieging becomes bland when every city looks the same. I'd love to have the ability to invest a city with a periteichismos (greek 400s BC, encirclement of a city using a stone wall), or simply surrounding a city with ditches and palisades like at Lilybaeum in the 1st punic war. Or a double-encircling wall circumunnitus as engineered by Vitruvius for Cæsar at Alesia. Also, sapping would be carried out in a turnbased manner, not as little molemen from some cartoon series. Logistics would also be a crucial aspect, with great ramifications for siege warfare. I had an idea which involved a timer. The moment you moved an army into an arid or desert area, a timer would start where the army's supplies would be counted down. You could essentially lose your entire army if you didn't move your army from waterhole to waterhole. Crassus made this mistake, but his army was spared the horrible fate of dying of thirst, as the Parthians attacked them at Carrhae.

Unfortunately most of my aspirations fall short of the technical limitations imposed by this otherwise great 3d engine.

But I do think it will be possible eventually. Gotta be optimistic.

Certainly, unique cities - many for which we still have maps! Though Mediæval cities are far easier to acquire maps for, we even have some accurate maps for ancient settlements! :smash:

[Sandouras]

First of all, having every city made unique in this game would be a GARGANTUAN task. Maybe "Medieval 7:TW" will have them. Thats why i said that we could at least find a way to do this with the most important ones. If a pattern is found, then we could all contribute and do them all!
But some of the cities that you refer to werent so important in the middle ages, and maybe didnt have the fortification you say, cause they would probably have moved forward for the antiquity. So lets stick to Medieval 2 and not to Antiquity TW.

I had an idea which involved a timer. The moment you moved an army into an arid or desert area, a timer would start where the army's supplies would be counted down. You could essentially lose your entire army if you didn't move your army from waterhole to waterhole.
Excellent. Now thats what i call realism. The thing is, that a waterhole could be a well, or a fountain, too small to put on a map. And the huge,dence forests in Germany for example arent considered friendly either. I think that this is getting it too far. At least the way TW games are layed nowadays.

[Crusader Invasion]

I remember someone making a custom Rome in RTW but untill the modding geniuses crack the code of M2, these ideas are just ideas. I would love to fight a river battle in a city like Paris (OR VENICE!!!) or see the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.

[SimonB1er]

I remember someone making a custom Rome in RTW but untill the modding geniuses crack the code of M2, these ideas are just ideas. I would love to fight a river battle in a city like Paris (OR VENICE!!!) or see the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.

Do you know where I can find that custom rome??

[D. Afonso Henriques]

This may be a litle out of the main topic. I noticed that the settlements that have castle, fortresses (and so on) do have a huge "thing" planted on them that is supposed to represent the castle. Though you can't use it, its complytely useless. Wouldn't it be a great addition to the game to make it possible to have soldiers running around the outside of the castles, theres a lot of space and it would be very realistic as well as awsome to play.
Is it possible? Is it a good idea?

[Sandouras]

If i get you right, you mean the main inner building of the fortresses. I totally concur, it would be great if you could use that!

[D. Afonso Henriques]

Precicely that:yes: . You could even the city centre somewere in the inner fortress, it would be awsome to use it. I hope some of the modders see this thread.
Still, is it possible or not?

[King Orko]

Hello to everyone!
I would like to suggest two things for MTR.

1) Wouldnt it be more interesting if cities where not identical to each other? As i think it is impossible to make every one of them, why not make the most important cities in Medieval history? Wouldn't it be awesome if you could assault the triple walls of Constantinople (pic related), Jerusalem, the eternal city (Rome), or fight on both sides of the river Seine (Paris).....etc?
I am just tired of besieging those bland cities that they have made for us!
Anyone who has played the game "Imperial Glory" will remember how cool it was to fight in the others capital (it had Paris,Bradenburg,Moscow and London)!
It would make those particular sieges so interesting, tactical and different! GLORIOUS! Besieging Constantinople for example (the city that didnt fall for a thousand years) would be something to behold and would not be just another bland siege on the battle map!
And on the tactical side, i think that there should be some "spice" in those sieges, like for example capturing specific points of the city or outside of it that would help you defend or capture the city. If we search at the real sieges of those cities, we could find the right and realistic "spice" to add!

Is it possible? I have no modding skills but i am so frustrated with sieges that i am willing to try it myself if someone can give me any directions.

2) I think that Huge Cathedrals should be allowed only at capitals and have an effect on public order and religion on the whole kingdom.
Also, and adding to the personalisation and awesomeness of the above cities, i think that it would be great to personalise the Huge Cathedrals of those cities on both the campaign map (name and image) and the battle map (building). Imagine St Peter's basilica in Rome, Hagia Sophia in Constantinople and Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem!

I hope you read this post and respond. I might be asking too much, but i think that things like that would add so much to the game. You would really feel the medieval air and glory!!!
1. Surely I agree
2. I think that it will be the best that you will be able to build huge cathedrals anywgere.
the Dome of the Rock is actually a mosque and it is not so magbificant, believe me

[Sandouras]

It was magnificent at the time. Its not that big, but it is gorgeous. Maybe for us now its nothing, but for an average man back then....
Anyway, the point was customization. Its not just seeing Dome of the Rock, but believing this is Jerusalem, because it has the same shape, topography, main buildings and such. All we see now is a city in the middle of a desert with a GARGANTUAN mosque in it! Lame....

[King Orko]

It was magnificent at the time. Its not that big, but it is gorgeous. Maybe for us now its nothing, but for an average man back then....
Anyway, the point was customization. Its not just seeing Dome of the Rock, but believing this is Jerusalem, because it has the same shape, topography, main buildings and such. All we see now is a city in the middle of a desert with a GARGANTUAN mosque in it! Lame....
Believe me, I live in Israel and I know how the Dom looks like

[Sandouras]

Yeah, and as i said, admiring a monument is not the point!

[King Orko]

Yeah, and as i said, admiring a monument is not the point!
Wait a second! what you said about that Jerusalem is in the middle of the desert is not true! its a huge metropolitan area with a lot of trees and grass in it

[Sandouras]

Just how old are you orko? I bet less than 15.

[Milovan]

God damn it, Orko...:wall: It's surrounded by a desert in the game, not in real life.


It's okay for most settlements to be square-lookin' towns, but Jerusalem, Rome and Constantinople should have been made unique... This way, it's just lame...

[King Orko]

God damn it, Orko...:wall: It's surrounded by a desert in the game, not in real life.


It's okay for most settlements to be square-lookin' towns, but Jerusalem, Rome and Constantinople should have been made unique... This way, it's just lame...
He talked about the real city that will be copied to the games, but in real life there is not any desert!

[Milovan]

He talked about the real city that will be copied to the games, but in real life there is not any desert!

I don't think that there is anyone who actually believes that Jerusalem is surrounded by a desert and nothing else. His exact words were "All we see now is a city in the middle of a desert with a GARGANTUAN mosque in it! Lame...."
It's obvious to everyone that the city in question is the vanilla city of M2TW. Don't get so easily aggravated...

[nurizeko]

In a perfect world every city would be unique and you could actually fight sea battles/amphibious landings.

[The Badger]

Well if we're discussing what could be;

I htink the make a settlement a castle or a town was a good idea in theory -
good options from a gameplay point of view

In actuality; i think they should rescind this.
for one it makes disloyal populations too easy to pacify...

BUT IDEALLY

what you would have is that FORTS get upgraded into castles -
and the acstles can be IN a city - or anywhere else

Just about every medieval town in addition to being walled; had (usually several; but one would do for game purposes) private strongholds within it.
(google champagne fairs - troyes town map for a nice example)


this would go towards making the cities more unique AND give the player more flexibility...

addressing what was said earlier about putting those 'dead spaces' to work

I have been told in seperate; previous modding conversations that such changes are not possible - too hard-coded - to mod into m2tw -

Perhaps next time?

keep expressing what you want to see; maybe so.:yes:

[Sandouras]

God damn you Badger, are you dyslexic or something? I cant make out a word you say!

[The Badger]

This is what happened when i tried to use my spell check:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Am_ID61Zs