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Whitey
02-11-2002, 17:26
Quote So if you've just got some peasants there might be 200 of them, just a big mob. But if you've got some super tough elite knights, there might be only 40 of them. [/QUOTE]

I like this a lot, more like what we wanted in STW...its all good!

Nelson
02-11-2002, 22:42
Sometimes there were large groups of knights though. This seems like a very artificial way to achieve balance if the small size is imposed across the board all of the time. Just because a unit type was powerful is no reason for it to always be small. Various unit sizes for each faction would be good but not likely.

I am of course talking about the campaign.

Hirosito
02-12-2002, 02:18
i think the pricing structure should be moe flexible. say a unit costs 200 florins and one season to make. you should be able to say i'll wait 2 seasons and only pay 100 florins. also what i'd like is that not all units take one season to train. some should take longer. you could then have a unit that costs 800 florins and 2 seasons to train. which could be tained in 1 season at a cost of 1600 florins.

blablabla

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

Nelson
02-12-2002, 02:44
Use large unit sizes and they take two seasons to train. I know you mean something else Hirosito and I agree. Training could be different among troop types. But it makes no sense for longer training to be cheaper. Longer would mean more expense not less. Nor does it follow that the skills could be imparted in less time at ANY price. This isn't like rush charges from a modern business. The longer men were in service the more upkeep they needed.

The current campaign is different with 120 man units though. The game is longer because you can't rely on one turn build times. And the battles look much better too with more men in the field.

Jaguara
02-12-2002, 03:35
I would like to see an option where you could train an extra season to gain an extra honour point - at extra cost, of course.

Papewaio
02-12-2002, 05:53
Quote Originally posted by Jaguara:
I would like to see an option where you could train an extra season to gain an extra honour point - at extra cost, of course.[/QUOTE]

That is an excellent idea. And realistic. Longer training better unit cohesion. If not honour then at least discipline should go up.

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Never start a land war in Asia
Never bet with a Sicilian when death is on the line
Never expect anything more then sarcasm from an Australian

Nelson
02-12-2002, 06:50
Good idea Jaguara!

Whitey
02-12-2002, 07:02
isn't thhat what the drill dojo was meant to be for?

Papewaio
02-12-2002, 08:12
Quote Originally posted by Whitey:
isn't thhat what the drill dojo was meant to be for?[/QUOTE]

Yep, but you could easily have multiple levels of discipline.

Why else is a mob a mob. Its just a butch of people shoved together typically on the spur of the moment. When people talk of highly disciplined units or organisations it tends to come from time and intensity of training together (exta season for time, dojo for intensity).

So instead of honour going magically up you could have discipline as the variable... how easy is it to control units. Mobs could have a negative discipline and need a strong leader to make them effective... also strong units nearby might be good at field policing (one reason knights sat behind the peasants).

Also the longer armies stay together there discipline could go up. And you could limit the formations available to the rank of discipline (no hold formations for mobs, just a rough square you can't resize... a mob is unlikely to spread out into a single line). Make the maximum discipline be dependent on unit type... professional units have had years to train (of course actual years in the field should be added to this...an undisciplined mob after 4 or so years in the trenches can be pretty formidable ie ANZACs WW I). And make the maximum bonus from formations discipline dependent... no more wet gunny wedges of doom.

It would also then make sense to link (not equate) discipline with morale ie +2 discipline = +1 morale, or they break at higher casuality rates.

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Never start a land war in Asia
Never bet with a Sicilian when death is on the line
Never expect anything more then sarcasm from an Australian

Toda Nebuchadnezzar
02-12-2002, 17:46
I do like where this thread is going... The idea that more time training gave you higher discipline and skill. This would quickly lead to more honour during the battles fought. Very good idea. Not too hard to impliment either.

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"

Nelson
02-12-2002, 19:11
My only concern would be training troops way beyond whatever historic capacities they might have had. We shouldn't be able to make silk purses from sow's ears. Some troops should be trainable to a higher degree than others. There also needs to be a limit beyond which only combat experience can improve the men. Perhaps one more honor is all extra training should provide with some units unqualified for even that.

Rath
02-12-2002, 19:33
Going on with what Nelson said i think that is one of the weaknesses of STW and MI. Ashi Units should have been restricted to a maximum of say 5honour or less.

Jaguara
02-12-2002, 22:58
Quote Originally posted by Nelson:
My only concern would be training troops way beyond whatever historic capacities they might have had. We shouldn't be able to make silk purses from sow's ears. Some troops should be trainable to a higher degree than others. There also needs to be a limit beyond which only combat experience can improve the men. Perhaps one more honor is all extra training should provide with some units unqualified for even that.[/QUOTE]

I agree with Nelson here.

This was actually my intent. I thought, +1 honour for an extra season - this could apply to any unit type though. After that, there are modifications based upon training facilities available.

This means that anyone can produce honour 1 troops by training longer. But even with Legendary trining grounds, the max honour at end of training would be 3 (or 4 in provinces with bonuses for that unit type)

After that, only combat would improve the unit further.

Whitey
02-13-2002, 07:06
and remember, at the moment it is very difficult for most units to get upgraded by combat...I think this should be made easier...maybe honour upgrades for having fought in a winning army ?

Nelson
02-13-2002, 20:23
An honor bonus for winning is already accrued to units via successful commanders so I think this base is covered.

I'm satisfied with the rate at which units gain honor in combat. It is one of the best features of the game IMO. Averaging the experience (kills) of each soldier is a great way to do it. If you get your guys into a position where they can really slaughter the enemy their honor will climb quickly. It is difficult to maintain a veteran unit near full strength with high honor but c'est la guerre! You can combine veteran cadres to do it or you can choose to reinforce the unit and allow the vets to stiffen the recruits.

Whitey
02-14-2002, 07:44
personally I think casualties are way too high anyway (a different issue however)

Flame of Udun
02-14-2002, 08:50
Quote Originally posted by Whitey:
personally I think casualties are way too high anyway (a different issue however)[/QUOTE]

You mean you dont like it when your enemies fight with your troops to the bitter end and by the end of the battle the pile of bodies is so high that you can only see the tops of your soldiers heads? (hey im not crazy but this game really shines in the 'big huge massacre' category)

Leet Eriksson
02-14-2002, 12:08
too much complication and it would only appeal to limited audience so the only solution is to remove any complication(limiting peasants and what not)so it would be easier to use by the wider audience you know that games are made so the company gets the green stuff they are also made to appeal to wider audience so we gotta cut down from too much complicated matters and leave it as it is(the honour system is already great so i don't think adding a few more things are gonna work)btw the game is not for expert strategy players there are times when a newbie can beat an expert!its all about planning carefully and being a bit patient and using tactics!

Whitey
02-14-2002, 17:12
Yep, I would prefer it if my units and their enemies didn't fight down to the bitter end, I would prefer to at least have the possibility of keeping units of troops long enough to get them to a superior level...

but thats not to most peoples tastes so I'll leave off :-)

Leet Eriksson
02-14-2002, 17:21
the most impressive part of stw is the pile of bodies just seeing the aftermath of a battle is so cool(cept when your troops are the dead pile of bodies http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Papewaio
02-14-2002, 17:58
It would be cool if the bodies actually piled up like men not leaves... think of the possiblities;

Defender.
Flat terrain, no hills to camp on.

Hmm I'll but 4 units of minimal Ashi.

Set them up in front and kill them with my muskets. And then set up my 3 row musket/ashi gold on the hills of the now dead ashi. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

All I'd need to complete it is a special unit of samurai who come with their own cauldron to eat Gah! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

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Never start a land war in Asia
Never bet with a Sicilian when death is on the line
Never expect anything more then sarcasm from an Australian