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Bwian
05-01-2007, 21:24
Some tricky units here, since I am not 100% how best to handle ethereals. It may just be a case of giving htem a very high defence and no hit-points to speak of ... or it may just be too difficult to adapt things to use them effectively. time and playtesting will tell here!

Units:

1) Zombies

2) Skeletons

3) Skeleton Warriors

4) Grave Guard

5) Wights

6) Ghouls

7) Spirit Host ( issue as above )

8) Wraiths ( issue as above )

9) Dire Wolves

10) Nightmares and skeleton horses for mounts

11) Blood Dragons ( various )

Generals would be either Vampire single models or Necromancers

Bob the Spork
05-01-2007, 22:04
Right, a few points on this one.

Zombies and ghouls are fine.

I presume by warriors you mean skeletons with spears, and normal ones with swords/axes/whatever. Also good. I’d advise you include archers as well. Although they aren’t in the main army list, they are included in the army book, as a specific blood dragon army unit. I’m sure, for sake of balance and variation if nothing else, you could include them. They would have to be rubbish though. I mean, really poor quality troops, barely able to hit at ten foot, let alone normal shooting range.

Wrights and Grave Guard… well Grave Guard are wrights. They’re simply one type of unit of them. You could also split Grave Guard into two types if you wish; sword and shield (basic), or a halberd (elite?), as they use both. Black Knights, the other non-character variety of wright, are obviously the heavy cavalry here. Only the one type of them possible I think, though there are slight grounds in which you could split them into 'heavy cavalry' and 'very heavy cavalry' branches.

For ethereal units… not sure how you could do them. Very high defence could work, I guess, but it doesn’t really do them justice. Either way, is there a method of creating morale damage from a unit’s presence? I think there was in RTW, but not sure about this one. Either way, they should, as in the TT version they cause terror.

My Blood Dragons, do you mean the type of vampire? Surely units of vampires, considering even a weak vampire is a powerful hero, are a bit much? If this isn’t what you mean, please explain, because I’m not on the right page.

Meneldil
05-01-2007, 22:55
Hum, if you're planning to have Skeletons, Skeleton warriors and Grave guards, may I propose you to use those models (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060207096&orignav=13) as the Warriors, and those (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=9947020700606&orignav=301116) as the Grave Guards.

Simply because the first ones (current grave guards figures) really look like dead soldiers (actually, dead bretonnians knights), while the old Wight figures (second pic) have more of a grave guards "feeling". They're not simply dead soldiers raised to serve a new lord, but they have their own (undead-ish) equipement.
That would mean getting rid of the Wight unit, but from what I understood, Wight describe all kinds of not-totally-braindead-skeleton (and thus, include Grave Guards and Black Knights, aswell as the now discontinued Skeleton characters)

Overall, I think leaving out non- Blood Dragon Vampires themselves is a pity. I don't know what is the smallest unit size possible in MTW2, but wouldn't it be possible to have squads of like, 4 or 8 Lamhian, Strigoi or Nercrach vampires ? Yeah, that would be overpowered, but one could say they're newly born vampires, and give them a huge upkeep.

uanime5
05-02-2007, 02:57
Also good. I’d advise you include archers as well. Although they aren’t in the main army list, they are included in the army book, as a specific blood dragon army unit. I’m sure, for sake of balance and variation if nothing else, you could include them. They would have to be rubbish though. I mean, really poor quality troops, barely able to hit at ten foot, let alone normal shooting range.

I don't think you can change the range of the archers, though you can reduce the number of arrows they have and give them poor moral.



For ethereal units… not sure how you could do them. Very high defence could work, I guess, but it doesn’t really do them justice. Either way, is there a method of creating morale damage from a unit’s presence? I think there was in RTW, but not sure about this one. Either way, they should, as in the TT version they cause terror.

For the Wights you could increase their hit points to make them harder to kill (they would need to take more damage before they died). It is possible to make units that can fighten infantry and / or mounted units.

Bwian
05-02-2007, 08:53
Mounts have a 'fear' effect ... never tried it with footsoldier! anothe rtest fo rthe weekend!!!!

Casuir
05-02-2007, 09:42
Theres lots of units that cause fear isnt there?

Ciaran
05-02-2007, 10:30
In RTW it was possible to give any unit fear-causing ability, I´m not sure about M2TW, though.
But if you´re refering to "Vampire Counts", does that mean you´ll try and include all of the bloodlines, or will you emphazise the Carstein line? If the former, you´d probably need more factions in the Vampire "culture". However, I wouldn´t know how to simulate the Strigoi, Blood Dragons and Necrarchs adequately on a campaign map, they don´t hold territories, so the best I could imagine woud be rebel units.

alexader
05-02-2007, 15:52
Bwian,how will be the zombies?i think it would be best to make themin man size or from other races with ripped clothing and with full of blood(and also ripped faces).how will they be used in the game and how will they kill the enemy,i mean by eating him?will you include in the vampire counts the rule from the warhammer that if they are far away from the necromancer,they cannot be control?it is possible?:egypt:

uanime5
05-02-2007, 16:20
Zombies could fight with the weapons they had when they were alive, for example peasants would have crude weapons.

Though a unit can be made to run amok this will occur regardless of how close they are to their necromancer, so out of control zombies can be difficult to code.

Also how will this faction function. Since the Tomb Kings use soldiers made from the preserved dead they only have low levels of soldiers but since Vampire Counts use undead that are far more available they should have greater numbers. A possible handicap is to only allow this faction to start with weak undead units, with strong units available at the end of the tech tree (no middle level units). This would encourage early attrition until this faction has worked its way up the tech-tree.

DrZoidberg
05-03-2007, 09:24
We can play around with the tech tree as much as we want. The source books have no info at all on the technology they use to raise the dead. Or even how it works. We could have small squads early and larger later. We could also have their most elite units only available through guild houses. To keep down their number.

In Warhammer the undead army is charecterised by being a mix of total and complete crap and very strong elite units. By making skeletons and zombies easily available everywhere and making elite units hard to produce we can keep that dynamic. It's easy to do with the TW tech-tree and buildings.

Bob the Spork
05-04-2007, 15:57
They raise the dead using necromancy, which is a magic art the vampires have a near instinctive control over. It stems from death magic, so whenever the wind of death is strong, so is necromancy. Although only more powerful vampires can raise large amounts of the undead, as in units or armies (maybe only allow places with a general to recruit, if possible), the ones that are powerful can reanimate corpses basically at will, and as many as are available in an area. In the warhammer world, any given place is likely to have plenty of skeletons, even zombies, available.

What are these ‘source books’ that everyone keeps mentioning?

Casuir
05-04-2007, 16:26
The army books I guess, there a bit lacking in info though. Theres pretty good source books in the WFRP 2nd edition, they only cover a few area though.

DrZoidberg
05-05-2007, 11:04
What are these ‘source books’ that everyone keeps mentioning?

Yeah, Army books. I've got them all. Even some of the older ones. It was 15 years ago I played any of this so I'm having great fun looking through the books again. Even though, back in the day I played mostly WH40K and WHFRP. Anyhoo.

:book:

Bob the Spork
05-05-2007, 11:37
That's strange. You see, a second ago someone said there wasn't anything about how the raised the dead in them, yet the army book, which I also have, quite clearly explains that it is the power of necromancy, and where this magic originated from. So unless people are tearing out some of their pages, that doesn't make sense.

DrZoidberg
05-05-2007, 13:24
That's strange. You see, a second ago someone said there wasn't anything about how the raised the dead in them, yet the army book, which I also have, quite clearly explains that it is the power of necromancy, and where this magic originated from. So unless people are tearing out some of their pages, that doesn't make sense.

I suggest we focus on helping each other fill the gaps or fix errors and save on the smart comments aimed at making fellow modders look dumb. :thumbsdown:

I checked the books again. It really doesn't say how they do it. Only that they can do it. It says nothing of buildings, artifacts, books, discoveries or preparations needed. All I could find was fragments of dead raising spells. So I do think it's up to us to decide which buildings are required.

If somebody has read the Warhammer fiction book "Necromancer", it might give us some insights :)

ellydog
05-05-2007, 14:49
I suggest we focus on helping each other fill the gaps or fix errors and save on the smart comments aimed at making fellow modders look dumb. :thumbsdown:

I checked the books again. It really doesn't say how they do it. Only that they can do it. It says nothing of buildings, artifacts, books, discoveries or preparations needed. All I could find was fragments of dead raising spells. So I do think it's up to us to decide which buildings are required.

If somebody has read the Warhammer fiction book "Necromancer", it might give us some insights :)

Ha funny co-incidence i'm reading that book now.

Bwian
05-05-2007, 15:46
To be honest ... units like skeletons and zombies should, quite possibly, be considered to be 'mercenary' units recruitable by the leaders. This way, the troops can be 'raised' without the need for any kind of building. Only a faction 'general' would be able to raise them. If we can tie their availability to a hidden resource ( shallow graves? ) then that gives us all we need.

Incidentally....having been watching Shaun of the Dead again, I have been inspired to start work on a zombie model :skull:

uanime5
05-05-2007, 17:20
Could we give a General a Necromancer trait so that they could recruit the undead (traits are not my speciality)?

Bwian
05-05-2007, 20:10
They should all have the ability to raise undead troops. They are the 'peasants' and the basic levy troops for the faction. Special things may be needed to raise the more potent forces.... but not the cannon fodder....which, I suppose was cannon fodder before it was raised as cannon fodder .... poor devils. Sometimes life's a bitch :beam:

Myrddraal
05-07-2007, 11:53
I think Mercs sound like a good way to go for undead factions, have 0 or minimal population in their home countries, have their income come from special buildings etc. Is there a way to restrict mercs to one faction, or are they always available to all?

Perhaps a script could be used to add mercs to undead 'home' regions when an undead faction leader is present. Then the act of hiring them would be the act of raising them. The main problem would be other factions raising armies of zombies which weren't recruited by the undead factions...

uanime5
05-07-2007, 12:17
What Myrddraal said is possible and does occur in M2TW, for example the Welsh Spearmen can only be recruited by the English in England. This is because the export_descr_unit.txt can restrict which factions can recruit which units.

Casuir
05-07-2007, 12:55
Mercs can be limited by religion at least. Having a population of 0 though doesnt neccessarily mean you cant produce troops, recruitment doesnt decrease the population in mtw2. Theres other factors involved here though, giving them no populaion would limit income and you'd never be able to upgrade your cities, you'd need to balance the economy which would get thrown out as soon as they took a city with some population.

Bwian
05-07-2007, 13:27
You don't need to limit the population to zero... the idea of having Vampire Counts recruiting base units as mercs would make them able to raise armies in a different way. The other 'core' units would still be recruitable in the cities, but they would require special bildings or upgraded cities. You can't restrict the growth as such, since this would prevent expansion.

I saw this more as a way of making the recruitment for this faction a little different and unusual.

Jargon
05-08-2007, 08:18
I recently started a Russian Grand Campaign, and noticed that you can loosley interpret the characters' accents as a sort of sly transylvanian. I havn't tried many other factions, but does anyone else think this would be a good voice set for the Vampire Counts?

DrZoidberg
05-08-2007, 12:19
I recently started a Russian Grand Campaign, and noticed that you can loosley interpret the characters' accents as a sort of sly transylvanian. I havn't tried many other factions, but does anyone else think this would be a good voice set for the Vampire Counts?

Unless we've got some kick-ass voice actors on board, I'm assuming that the standard MTW2 are staying. I don't know of any other Warhammer computer game made that we can steal fitting sounds from.

Bwian
05-08-2007, 13:55
Voices will initially be the stock ones. If we can find people abtle and willing to record new ones, then I would love to have custom sounds.

This is something to think about for future releases.

Using someone elses sounds form a commercial game is a definite no. It is a breach of copyright, and if GW or the owner of the copyright material took offence, we would find ourselves closed down very quickly.

GamesWorkshop is very generous in it's policy towards use of it's IP for mods like ours, and I respect that. Use of material copyrighted by companies who had licensed to use GW's IP for a commercial game are far less likely to be forgiving! Safest to avoid any risk and do our own, or use the ones that shiiped with MTW2.

Casuir
05-08-2007, 13:55
Nobody will be stealing anything from any game.

DrZoidberg
05-09-2007, 08:18
I'm writing the unit descriptions for the Vampire counts and doing some research. There are distinct blood lines of vampires which all are completely different and above all they don't fight or even get along together, (except for the Blood Dragons occasionally). And they all count as Vampire Count armies.

I think we should decide which of the blood lines to make a faction for and stick to it. We've got the Von Carsteins, Nechrarchs, Blood Dragons, Strigoi and Lhamians.

All of them use the same kind of units.

Nechrarchs aren't really into empire building, they just want to kill everything living, so they aren't very suitable for a faction.

The Strigoi are insane creatures living in gutters and deep forrest with ghoul followers. Not really empire builders either.

Blood Dragons are only into it for the fighting. No empire either.

Next we've got Lhamians and Von Carsteins who both very much are into empire building and both would be very suitable for factions. Also they have living human subjects which makes them all the more suitable for the MTW2 engine. But Lhamians are from Khemri and will have quite a similar look to them as the Tomb Kings. We really don't need two factions that look the same.

I suggest that we only use the Von Carsteins as the vampire faction and have the Blood Dragons as an expensive mercenary unit that they can occasionally reqruit.

If we want the Lhamian vampire faction I suggest puting them in some future release, or replacing the Tomb Kings with them all together, and have the Tomb Kings as horde, (but that's allready been voted down:egypt: ).

Bwian
05-09-2007, 23:17
The Lhamians also do not fit on the map. There has been much juggling and thought about the map and what parts we can fit onto it, and Lhamian territory does not fit.

Additionally...there is no need to worry about whether a faction has human subjects ... it's not an issue.

Lastly ... as has already been stated ... the Tomb Kings are in. They are also STAYING in. They have a unique look, make an attractive spectacle, and offer some interesting challenges. They also have a significant proportion of their units complete and in game, and with what I know can be done with skeleton/animation routines, we can also do all the exotic units they need too.

On the faction front, I think you have pretty much covered the essentials there.

DrZoidberg
05-10-2007, 06:53
The Lhamians also do not fit on the map. There has been much juggling and thought about the map and what parts we can fit onto it, and Lhamian territory does not fit.


Lhamian vampires do not live in Lhamia any longer. They where expeled and queen Nefarata and her court resetled in Silver Pinnacle in the Worlds Edge mountains. She has built herself a palace and from there she sends out spies and vampire agents to infiltrate the courts of the Old World plotting her return. She has a vast army of Zombies that she uses for protection and all her generals are hot chicks. It's all on pages 6 and 7 in the Vampire Counts army book.

Unless the Worlds Edge mountains have been bumped from the map which would be a shame :) I maintain that they would work great as a seperate faction. If we want and need them that is. Just because we can use something doesn't mean we should. Off-course.

But I got the message. Lhamians will have to wait and the von Carsteins are included.

I've got a question. Shouldn't we have vampires as units? They're not in the army list now, but I think they should be. We can have them as super elite and one of those units with only 20 men in them. Since we are including the Blood Dragons units, it makes no sense not to include the regular von Carstein blood line vampires. In Warhammer Battle the vampires thralls do plenty of fighting. Not only the vampire lords.

Another unit which are central to the vampire counts are the necromancers that's been omitted. Could it be possible to make then use some sort of invisible cannon and make the projectile fired to be a huge skull or something. It's pretty much what they do.

Jargon
05-10-2007, 08:25
If you wanted to unify the vampires into a single faction, could you turn the bloodlines into traits? So, if they are 'born' from a faction leader, they have 100% chance of getting that trait, and if they are randomly spawned, they have equal chance of becoming one of the 4-5 clans ? Each could come with anti-traits of the other clans, preventing multiple bloodlines from appearing on one character. This way you would have a Kingdom comprised of multiuple vampire families, although i'm not sure if this makes sense Lore-wise.

Otherwise, the Von Carsteins do sound like the natural choice for the Vampire faction from what you ahve described.

Bwian
05-10-2007, 08:48
The Lords would be the general units. I don't really see them as a 'unit' in their own right, since they would be far too few in number to actually form up a large unit. It would also be the only way we can have a unque model for the Vampire leaders. to show up against the rank and file.

As far as the magic goes, I am also nervous about making units of magic throwing warriors. There is a minimum unit size, and this would be a problem. There would be a handful of Necromancers at most in a an army...more would look wrong. If I can find a way to mess about with things to get around this, then I will.

I managed to fool RTW into letting me use a human skeleton in an elephant unit ( with invisible riders due to the lack of a saddle bone ) and this worked well for me. It greatly reduced the size of the unit. There were some issues...and I could not make the archers on the back fire ... but it's an avenue I can explore for magic firing units.

Having a massed rank of these is out though... just looks silly and unrealistic.

Meneldil
05-10-2007, 08:58
Lhamian vampires do not live in Lhamia any longer. They where expeled and queen Nefarata and her court resetled in Silver Pinnacle in the Worlds Edge mountains. She has built herself a palace and from there she sends out spies and vampire agents to infiltrate the courts of the Old World plotting her return. She has a vast army of Zombies that she uses for protection and all her generals are hot chicks. It's all on pages 6 and 7 in the Vampire Counts army book.


Hence why they should be in IMO :D They could just have the same unit as the other Vampire faction (Von Carstein ?), but with female generals.

Casuir
05-10-2007, 10:51
Which would require their own culture, which are in short supply.

DrZoidberg
05-10-2007, 14:29
The Lords would be the general units. I don't really see them as a 'unit' in their own right, since they would be far too few in number to actually form up a large unit. It would also be the only way we can have a unque model for the Vampire leaders. to show up against the rank and file.

As far as the magic goes, I am also nervous about making units of magic throwing warriors. There is a minimum unit size, and this would be a problem. There would be a handful of Necromancers at most in a an army...more would look wrong. If I can find a way to mess about with things to get around this, then I will.

I managed to fool RTW into letting me use a human skeleton in an elephant unit ( with invisible riders due to the lack of a saddle bone ) and this worked well for me. It greatly reduced the size of the unit. There were some issues...and I could not make the archers on the back fire ... but it's an avenue I can explore for magic firing units.

Having a massed rank of these is out though... just looks silly and unrealistic.

Maybe I'm totaly wrong here, but isn't Vampire Thralls just plain vampires, but belonging to the bottom rungs of vampire society. But they're not core units so we could drop them without losing the WH feel. My only real beef here, (and it is minor) is that it would be nice with a vampire faction where we've actually got some vampire units in battles we can play with.

Otherwise we're in full agreement. If we can't make something in the Warhammer world work well in the MTW2 engine, we should drop it.

Casuir
05-10-2007, 15:16
Vampire thrall are single characters, theres no actual unit of vampires in the tabletop game, core or otherwise. The very most you could do without making stuff up is include them as officers but given the amount of unit models to be made that would be low priority.

DrZoidberg
05-10-2007, 15:34
Vampire thrall are single characters, theres no actual unit of vampires in the tabletop game, core or otherwise. The very most you could do without making stuff up is include them as officers

But Warhammer battles are as a rule skirmishes. Tiny encounters between small numbers of troops. I think you'll have to scale it up a bit for MTW2. I could very well imagine units of Thralls in major battles. A Thrall is worth 10 times more points, (80p) than the common foot soldier, (8p). So it wouldn't be such a stretch to put them in squads of 20 and jack up the price.

It all comes down to what play style we want to have for the undead. Me personally I'd like to see a combination of crap and gold. Where the job of the garbage is to make sure the powerful units aren't outflanked or ganged up upon. As it is now the only powerful units Vampire Counts have are Blood Dragons and the general Vampire Lord. I'd rather have Vampire Thralls included into a von Carstein army than Blood Dragon. Just by looking at the story of Warhammer, it makes more sense.

Yes, I agree Blood Dragons look cooler.



but given the amount of unit models to be made that would be low priority.

Ah, yes reality. What a nuisance it is :)

Casuir
05-10-2007, 17:00
Well I think its better to wait until the armies are done and playtested before we start deciding they need units because they're unbalanced. Adding special characters as units is imo a bad idea unless its absolutely needed, you do it for one particular model and theres no excuse for not doing it for the rest. As for the scale thing, warmaster doesnt include thralls as a unit so I'm guess gw doesnt feel theyre needed either.

@ bwian, I notice Black Knights arent on the list, this intentional or an oversight?

DrZoidberg
05-10-2007, 17:27
Well I think its better to wait until the armies are done and playtested before we start deciding they need units because they're unbalanced. Adding special characters as units is imo a bad idea unless its absolutely needed, you do it for one particular model and theres no excuse for not doing it for the rest. As for the scale thing, warmaster doesnt include thralls as a unit so I'm guess gw doesnt feel theyre needed either.

@ bwian, I notice Black Knights arent on the list, this intentional or an oversight?

Since we've got Wights in the list and Black knights simply are Wights on horses, (Nightmares) it does make sense to include them.

DrZoidberg
05-10-2007, 17:34
If by chance they will be included I threw together a Black Knight unit card description. I won't start crying if this doesn't get used.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

12) Black Knights

In the ancient times heroes where buried in mounds of earth and stone, in full battle gear and all their worldly wealth. These are raised with powerful magic and are called Wights. The spells to make them rise are so powerful that once they have risen they can last for many centuries. Even though they have more capacity of independent thought than skeleton warriors they are still the slaves of the vampires. Occasionally they are led by Wight lords.

The wealthiest of these ancient buried heroes where sometimes buried with their warhorses and together they are known as Black Knights.

They wear well crafted heavy bronze armor, as is their heavily armoured skeletal warhorse. They are armed with exquisite enchanted long swords and shields.

Bwian
05-10-2007, 23:35
What we must bear in mind is that the number of actual models we can have in the game is limited. As is the number of unit variations.

The stock MTW2 units, as in all the Ca games, use the same model with a different texture as often as possible. This allows them to get the maximum number of units for the minimum expenditure of PC resource.

We are more restricted in this approach. You can re-use an orc mesh for a few things, I can use the same chaos units for the different factions with different skins ....but we can't do what the stock game does, which is to use...for example .... the same peasant mesh for multiple factions.

We have to be economical with the units wherever possible if we are not to find ourselves restricted later on. Once we have a solid core for each faction, we can start adding in 'fancy' units!

Casuir
05-11-2007, 01:35
Theres 800+ odd variations in the _unit folder, even allowing half of these to be leftovers from the unit creation process you're still left with more than enough models. What worries me more is texture usage, 2 1024*1024 dxt5's take up a lot of memory. Not counting faction variants theres under 40 unit textures in the stock game, unless we're very careful with how textures are shared between units we could have resource problems.

Raz
05-11-2007, 05:32
Edit - *cough, cough*

Meneldil
05-11-2007, 16:47
Which would require their own culture, which are in short supply.

Aren't generals (both on the campaign and battle maps) defined by their factions and not culture ? Or do they have to share a single model for each culture ?

If that's so, well, that would be a shame, a female-oriented faction would have been trully great IMO. Let's hope CA allow us to mod more culture in a futur patch.

Casuir
05-11-2007, 16:52
Yes, portraits arent though.

DrZoidberg
05-11-2007, 18:10
Yes, portraits arent though.

We could have a drag king thing going. Would be a hoot to have a guy with a beard called Selena :)

uanime5
05-11-2007, 23:35
You could just replace the general's portrait with a princess' portrait and use the princess' strat map icon instead of the general's. However she would speak like a man on the map and in battle.

Casuir
05-12-2007, 00:03
Changing the protraits requires a seperate culture, theres a limit of 7 which isnt enough for the factions we have. Using one for a faction which is a bit player at best is not likely to happen.

Abokasee
05-12-2007, 15:16
I'm writing the unit descriptions for the Vampire counts and doing some research. There are distinct blood lines of vampires which all are completely different and above all they don't fight or even get along together, (except for the Blood Dragons occasionally). And they all count as Vampire Count armies.

I think we should decide which of the blood lines to make a faction for and stick to it. We've got the Von Carsteins, Nechrarchs, Blood Dragons, Strigoi and Lhamians.

All of them use the same kind of units.

Nechrarchs aren't really into empire building, they just want to kill everything living, so they aren't very suitable for a faction.

The Strigoi are insane creatures living in gutters and deep forrest with ghoul followers. Not really empire builders either.

Blood Dragons are only into it for the fighting. No empire either.

Next we've got Lhamians and Von Carsteins who both very much are into empire building and both would be very suitable for factions. Also they have living human subjects which makes them all the more suitable for the MTW2 engine. But Lhamians are from Khemri and will have quite a similar look to them as the Tomb Kings. We really don't need two factions that look the same.

I suggest that we only use the Von Carsteins as the vampire faction and have the Blood Dragons as an expensive mercenary unit that they can occasionally reqruit.

If we want the Lhamian vampire faction I suggest puting them in some future release, or replacing the Tomb Kings with them all together, and have the Tomb Kings as horde, (but that's allready been voted down:egypt: ).

Blood Dragons could be mercanaries as well as the occansion rebel war band here and there

Nechrachs could start off as some seriously nasty rebels in a certain terriortory, and then become a emergenant faction some point in the game (I wouldn't see why a large number of Nechrah lords would attemp to make a empire)

Strigoi will have to be seriously nasty rebels and just that, rebels

Lhamians we could have the units have some simularities, but not the same as tomb kings

Born in lust for blood
05-13-2007, 20:16
Um isnt the Lahmian faction suppose to seduce other humans into marring them and then taking over? So you could have a trait "pale wife or odd wife" or something and that will reduce the general's loyalty so that he would rebel against the faction. It is very common for Empire and Bretonian generals to bring home damsels of "undescribed pale beauty" and then go wrong.
I would suggest that you let the Wights go and introduce the Black Knights. They are far more tied to the Vampire counts theme. Also the idea of grouped necromancers isnt that bad. If you look at warmaster(the epic version of warhammer) there is a necromancer unit.

Casuir
05-14-2007, 09:13
Which is still a single character

Born in lust for blood
05-14-2007, 13:42
No not really. There are 12 of them in each unit. Concentrated. I think....

DrZoidberg
05-14-2007, 13:53
No not really. There are 12 of them in each unit. Concentrated. I think....

There are 20 men units in MTW2 so I think it's totaly doable. The problem is that there's a roof on how many models there can be in the game in total. Next problem is that we haven't found a way to make any form of wizardry look cool or be useful of the battlefield. This coupled to that we don't even know what kind of magic they should be able to do. Using the WH spell lists is naturally out of the question.

To sum it up. Wizards are not priority units, they will require more work than all other units and on top of that there still is problems that need to be solved before we could even begin to implement them.

But this doesn't stop small groups of Vampires or Bloor Dragons in the game. That would be smashing.

Casuir
05-14-2007, 14:26
No not really. There are 12 of them in each unit. Concentrated. I think....

No theres not, the army list entry is for a necromancer. Singular. Nor are there any minatures for a unit. I dont know where you're getting this info from, please source it.

DrZoidberg
05-14-2007, 14:44
No theres not, the army list entry is for a necromancer. Singular. Nor are there any minatures for a unit. I dont know where you're getting this info from, please source it.

Aren't you being a tad anal now? Just because in WH these units are deployed only one at a time mean we can't have to do it. If our choices are multiple units or not at all, then I'm all for bending the WH cannon.

Or we could deploy them as siege weapons. One necromancer, (the cannon) and a group of bodyguards, (the cannoneers). The siege weapons have hit points. The only silly thing is that they can't shoot unless the bodyguards are there, but that's a minor issue.

But this is all academic since we're still not sure if we even can have them in the mod.

Bwian
05-14-2007, 16:15
Siege units as people do not work. You have to use the siege weapon skeleton, cannot animate movements correctly, and you get a crew pushing them around....Also...if you get an infantry rush..the crew run off and fight, and the gun stops working.

Sorry...but I just don't see how this would be believable.

Also, when it comes to powerful single characters ( and I agree with Casuir here ) I cannot see how there would be a unit of them in the sort of size battles we would be having. It's like having an army of Chaos Lords. You might summon one to a battle... but not many. Units in MTW2 scale up..and 20 men is not 20 men on HUGE unit size.

You then have to cope with the other problems of massed missile firing:

1) Always volley fire.
2) Limits on targets. Infantry cannot fire at walls etc.

Necromancers would make potential general units for the Counts, able to raise armies ( literally ) and command troops in the field.... but not as a general combat unit. They are not listed as such in teh army books, and I don't feel comfortable trying to find a reason to fit them in.

Born in lust for blood
05-14-2007, 16:44
Maybe then a unit with skeletons and a necromancer(eg like captain) to look like that.
Speaking of the necromancer how do you expect to rise troops in battle?
Or are you not?

Bwian
05-14-2007, 18:15
Raising troops in battle is impossible. There is no provision for this in the game engine.

uanime5
05-14-2007, 23:40
I guess the only way to raise troops would be to convince the game that there was another army nearby and that it could enter the battle. However I have no idea how to do this or if it is even possible.

Hiring the undead as mercenaries would be a better way of 'raising' an army.

Casuir
05-15-2007, 00:27
I think officers have the same stats as the units they're with so dont see them being included that way, you'd either have a unit of skeletons or a unit of necromancers.

Meneldil
05-15-2007, 16:06
From what I understood, you're going with the Von Carstein as the VC faction. If that's so, I guess using Imperial names for the characters is the best thing we could come up with, no ?

Kesxex
05-19-2007, 14:30
As far as recruiting goes the idea of mercenary units for the basic troops is a good one. This covers also that there are graveyards/battlefields all over the map.
As for special units you could do these as buildings in a loose sense of association. Instead of building them it would mean that the burial mounds / graveyards where these units are normally recruited (re-animated would be a better word) are discovered by the faction.
Probably a good building for choice would be the church as it is razed if a region is conquered by a different faction.

ellydog
05-19-2007, 14:58
Just got an idea for these guys, would it be possible to recruit better units at the site of a famous battle. It would make sense due to the lose of lives there.

Bwian
05-19-2007, 17:24
Not sure to what extent you can control the mercenaries in a particular area ... but it is an idea.

uanime5
05-19-2007, 22:28
It is possible to control what mercenaries can be recruited in one area but this has to be set at the start of the game and cannot be changed during it (unless a mercenary needs a particular event to occur before it can exist, such as gunpowder discovered).

DrZoidberg
05-19-2007, 22:54
It is possible to control what mercenaries can be recruited in one area but this has to be set at the start of the game and cannot be changed during it (unless a mercenary needs a particular event to occur before it can exist, such as gunpowder discovered).

And I do think we should use this feature toward making the game more interesting rather than WH cannon correct. Just my personal opinion.

Bwian
05-19-2007, 23:15
Warhammer Canon is what we are aiming for, unless the game cannot function correctly with it applied. There is no reaosn to think Warhammer Canon won't be fun....and I certainly don't see why we should re-invent the Warhammer Universe when we don't need to. The intention is to make a Warhammer Mod, not a mod loosly based on Warhammer.

We will change what we have to, but we intend to stay as true as possible to the tabletop wargame.

Born in lust for blood
05-20-2007, 17:17
I think we should just limit them to factions. I mean a vampire can raise dead(which are virtualy everywhere) out of his territory.

Dogman55
05-21-2007, 02:09
I'm curious... what's warhammer canon..? Is it like normal gunpowder canons you guys are talking about?

Bwian
05-21-2007, 17:49
That had better be a joke Dogman .... or I'm going to climb on my soapbox and give a boring speech about the shocking state of education these days. Then I might resort to biting sarcasm and finish off with a suggestion that someone go out and buy a decent dictionary.

I'm turning into a grumpy old man .... and I'm not even that old!

Dogman55
05-21-2007, 23:43
Methinks you sound like an old man! :afro:

But lemme check... :book2:


Searching....:study:


Aha! :idea2:

Canon: A secular law, rule, or code of law.
Hmm... didn't help much! Oh well!

Jargon
05-22-2007, 00:29
Anything produced by Games Workshop staff is canon. There are different levels to it, for example all Warhammer Army Books may be the first level of canon, while website info, novels, and world wide campaigns are the next level down. The lowest form of canon would be things like a Warhammer computer game or MMORPG. These lower levels must have input by the creators of Warhammer, but in the end it wasnt actually made by them and so are less likely to be taken seriously.

Fanfiction is a perfect example of non-canon. It has no official relation to the official game world. I got in trouble in the Skaven section for using non-canon information, so it can be a problem.

Bwian
05-23-2007, 15:50
Dogman ..this old man keeps his soapbox handy at all times :clown:

Nice smilies .... and a fine dictionary definition! A dictionary is such a useful thing to own. Paperweight...fly-swatting ... levelling a rickety desk...myriad of possible uses. Now define secular....

Ahh...how I laughed at the Life of Brian 'romans go home' scene.

But..alas...I am digressing and I have precious little time to waste... I got Dwarves to build :whip:

Dogman55
05-24-2007, 02:00
Aye Aye Captain! And thanks for helping explain Canon, Jargon!

overkill1991
05-26-2007, 20:57
Hey everyone !

first post here. I was looking for a nice fansite because i just recently got MTW2 and i saw this post about a warhammer mod. I really like warhammer and i have a good suggestion, but i dont know if it can be done gamewise.


Instead of having necromancers as units, why not make a priest be a necromancer. This way you could send a necromancer(priest) to one of your areas and make it so that as long as the necromancer stays in that certain area or city,that at each end of the turn a city or cities in a region would receive a group of undead. Or an army spawns for your faction in that area consisting completely from undead soldiers.


i hope you guys understand what im trying to say, english isnt my original language. (im Dutch)


anyways awesome you make this mod and i hope my suggestion helps

DrZoidberg
05-27-2007, 10:06
Instead of having necromancers as units, why not make a priest be a necromancer. This way you could send a necromancer(priest) to one of your areas and make it so that as long as the necromancer stays in that certain area or city,that at each end of the turn a city or cities in a region would receive a group of undead. Or an army spawns for your faction in that area consisting completely from undead soldiers.


I hate to rain on your parade but I'm fairly sure this isn't possible to do in the MTW2 engine.

Bwian
05-27-2007, 11:15
The closest thing to that is generals being able to recruit mercenaries. This costs money but requires no population to form the pool. If we are to have undead troops raised, then the only way to do it would be to have them as mercenaries.

Now...the problem there, is making sure that only those factions that should be using them are able to recruit them. I cannot imagine having an Empire army using skeletons as troops....

uanime5
05-27-2007, 16:04
Mercenaries can be assigned to a particular religion. Therefore we just have to ensure that only the Vampire Counts, and possibly the Tomb Kings, belong to that religion while all other factions belong to a different religion.

alexader
06-14-2007, 11:54
Did anyone said something about Mordheim? I think that is a place that fits to a vampire city because it is ''cursed'' city so it is intersted to be(for the von carsteins right?).What do you think?......

Krazysigmarite
06-14-2007, 18:14
Mordheim was destroyed by a two-tailed comet during the Imperial Civil War after it became corrupted in many different ways. Most citizens in the Empire saw this as Sigmar smiting the city for its sins. Mordheim no longer exists and is not in anyone's memory, as the city's ruins were utterly razed and destroyed by Magnus the Pious's armies after the victorious Great War against Chaos. After the destruction of the ruins, Mordheim was removed from all Imperial history. 'Modern' Empire citizens would have never heard of Mordheim.

The city/province you are thinking of is Sylvania, the cursed lands where the Von Carsteins first made their rise. Castle Drakwald is the specific center of terror and shun.

alexader
06-14-2007, 18:45
the campaign that game workshop had realesed with the name mordheim city of the damned says that many warbands go their to search for treasures and for wyrdstone and in the city have been found many undead and stranger creatures wandering the streets.I think mordheim still exist and it's very common to be an undead city,it's only my opinion and Bwian decides (but many shops that i go and play say that mordheim still exist because GW tells):egypt:

Krazysigmarite
06-14-2007, 20:48
The game Mordheim takes place before Magnus the Pious razed the city. It's a pretty fun little skirmish game, you put together a warband and battle it out with other gangs, search for treasure, etc. The hunt is based around finding pieces of warpstone. The ruins of Mordheim were tainted by chaos because of the large amount of warpstone in the comet that leveled the city - hence why Magnus destroyed the ruins.

alexader
06-14-2007, 21:26
I know the story,i am playing this game recently,but the only thing i didn't know is that it takes place before magnus the pious razed the city beacuse i didn't find it anywhere in the sourcebooks or even the rulebook of mordhiem ,so have anyone alse an opinion about mordhiem? Ok if Bwain don't want mordheim i will not insist.The end:egypt:

Jargon
06-15-2007, 05:37
If the Vampire Counts faction are in desperate need of another city, then Mordheim seems like it could fit the bill. Make it a weak city with a few skeleton units as garrison, representing it rising from the ashes with the undead in control. If VC dont need a new city that badly then maybe its too much of a stretch.

Ciaran
06-17-2007, 11:42
the campaign that game workshop had realesed with the name mordheim city of the damned says that many warbands go their to search for treasures and for wyrdstone and in the city have been found many undead and stranger creatures wandering the streets.I think mordheim still exist and it's very common to be an undead city,it's only my opinion and Bwian decides (but many shops that i go and play say that mordheim still exist because GW tells):egypt:

The important thing is to look at the timeline. In some point of time, Mortheim did exist as a regular city, at another point as the ruined city and finally it didn´t exist anymore at all. And not all Warhammer universe scenarios are placed at the same point in time, it´s just an impression you tend to get because there´s not much in the way of technological progress in the Warhammer universe. Much like the Lord of the Rings, people there are rapping each other over the head with swords for three Ages, almost nine thousand years, and no progress at all. As a comparison t the real world, that´s somewhere in the Stone Age.

Dead Guy
07-13-2007, 10:29
I was thinking about Ghouls and their poisoned attacks. I guess it can't be mimicked in the engine like it works on the tabletop, where certain hits automatically wound or whatever it is, been too long since I played FB... If I remember correctly you're thinking of solving it by just increasing attack rating?

Would it be possible for poisoned attacks to induce the rotting cow effect? I have a feeling it's been discussed before so sorry if it's already been ruled out. I searched but didn't find it...

:skull:

Bwian
07-13-2007, 14:29
I don't think there is any way we can fairly recreate the poison effects, other than by upping the combat power, and giving them a 'dread' factor so they cause fear in other units.

Jubal_Barca
07-15-2007, 19:04
I managed to fool RTW into letting me use a human skeleton in an elephant unit ( with invisible riders due to the lack of a saddle bone ) and this worked well for me. It greatly reduced the size of the unit. There were some issues...and I could not make the archers on the back fire ... but it's an avenue I can explore for magic firing units.

How did you do this, out of interest?

Bwian
07-15-2007, 19:44
RTW animations used a system which I could mess about with...and M2TW is the same ..but far more obvious to play with!

Each 'movement' in the descr_skeleton text file is linked to an action. I found that RTW human skeletons had all the movements that an elephant did. Horses and camels lacked an attack set...but the elephant had this. As a result, you can put an elephant unit in but give it a human model. The human model uses a human animation set ... but you could put each corresponding human animation movement into a new folder, and make it a skeleton set for the elephant.

It's much easier in M2TW, since you can just edit the skeleton file to point a set at the animations you want.

The only thing I don't understand is how the link to the rider units actually works. I know what happened in that instance... but I don;t understand why the riders did not display! I figured the units must be positioned relative to a certain bone ... but I don't know how it happens.

Aspie
07-16-2007, 17:27
If you're going for a sylvanian vampire counts faction, what about adding something like a unit Sylvanian Levy and Sylvanian Levy Archers to villages as living units?

Bwian
07-17-2007, 11:32
It would be likely, I suppose, to have some form of basic conscript human troops units for the VC's. Not ( oops...lost hte end of my post! ) sure exactly how this would work, or if they would just be mercenaries.

Eufarius
07-19-2007, 04:11
sorry to interrupt but any VC screenies Bwian?:beam:

Aspie
07-19-2007, 16:20
It would be likely, I suppose, to have some form of basic conscript human troops units for the VC's. Not ( oops...lost hte end of my post! ) sure exactly how this would work, or if they would just be mercenaries.

It seems that the normal undead troops would be hired as mercenaries from what I've read from the previous posts, so perhaps the walls of villages/towns/cities would be able to produce them in low numbers?
At the back of the vampire counts book they give some alternate army lists for each bloodine, and for Von Cartseins they are able to hire the militia units of the empire's old army book(free company, archers and crossbowmen, just that the troops name are Sylvanian Levy). It says something about that the peaants still consider the von carsteins as their legitimate rulers, and therefore gladly fight for them.

Silaris
08-20-2007, 19:05
Had a couple of ideas, I doubt they are perfect and am unsure if they can be done, but ah well.

1) A trait for generals which allows them to recover more losses after a battle. Perhaps it would be abit imbalanced, but at least it would simulate the raising of freshly fallen enemy troops.

2) People seem to want Strigoi Vampires in the game in some shape or form, possibly make them the "champion" of a Ghoul unit. Though not totally fluffy, it is known that they do have 'fondness' for one another, and would satisfy those who wish to see it.

3) Concering Lhemian vampires (apologise if spelt wrong), they could possibly have that city mentioned earlier as a rebel undead city. Female models could always come later, but for the map it may be an idea to at least consider it.

4) Likely to have been mentioned, but perhaps make Sylvanian Archers, Levy etc as a Mercenary unit available to both Vampire Counts and the Empire. Only recruitable in Sylvania of course.

GabrielTam
08-22-2007, 10:44
Hello to all! You are making a great job, so - thanks from Russia Warhammer fans!!!
What about VC Siege weapons? I don't know about Wh Codec, but in M2TW VC will suffer greatly without such a weapon. It will require laying siege to every town instead of taking it by force. :dizzy2:
Recently i read a book of Steven Daville "Inheritance" about VC, there was such a weapon - a catapult made from some animated dead bodies and flesh parts.
Is it possible to add such weapon at army roster? :egypt:
PS. Sorry for my English... :inquisitive:

uanime5
08-22-2007, 11:49
Hello to all! You are making a great job, so - thanks from Russia Warhammer fans!!!
What about VC Siege weapons? I don't know about Wh Codec, but in M2TW VC will suffer greatly without such a weapon. It will require laying siege to every town instead of taking it by force. :dizzy2:
Recently i read a book of Steven Daville "Inheritance" about VC, there was such a weapon - a catapult made from some animated dead bodies and flesh parts.
Is it possible to add such weapon at army roster? :egypt:
PS. Sorry for my English... :inquisitive:

Since you can build catapults in M2TW the VC could have one. Whether Bwain makes one is his own decision.

A Norseman
08-22-2007, 14:58
Von chastein armies use more traditional style of warfare, only with undead soldiers, Giving them a trebuchet or somthing similar wuld be perfectly natural.
The tomb kings on the other hand use much more acane magic, so they shuld probably have a bonethrower or somthing like that..

That said, i wonder what units of the VC you are planning to add,
I suggest the folowing:

Core units:
Skeleton regiment,*
Zombie regiment*
Armoured Skeleton Halberdiers

Spesial units:
Grave Guard
Black Knights

Rare units:
Bashee**
Wright Band ***

*alreddy made
** I dont know if it is possioble to make those, but they wuld make for a fine High tech unit players culd build twowards.
***I am hoping you will find a way to include wrights, cause they are Unspeacably cool. (A minimal untis size of wrights maby?)

For command units i sugest
General -> Von Carstein Vampire
Captain -> Wright Lord

Dead Guy
08-22-2007, 16:32
By Wrights, I suspect you mean Wraiths? The grim reaper kind of specters with scythes and robes, and not the Wights which went on to become grave guard?
I think they'd make an awesome unit, but would definetly have to be few in numbers to follow the GW stuff, at least the old undead army book, later on they're heroes if I remember correctly.

Dead Guy
08-22-2007, 16:40
Sorry for the double post, but I guess the siege weapon you're refering to is the screaming skull catapult, also from the old undead army book. While VC doesn't have access to this weapon anymore (I think) I'd love to use it in the mod, and I think it would be a really cool addition if there's time to make it. Does Tomb Kings still have the screaming skull catapult by the way? Perhaps it's better suited for them...

Bwian
08-22-2007, 17:34
The screaming skull catapult is definitely going to be in the Tomb King lineup.

Also...the VC's already have a halberdier unit built for them:2thumbsup:

Enthes
08-23-2007, 04:36
The screaming skull catapult is definitely going to be in the Tomb King lineup.

Also...the VC's already have a halberdier unit built for them:2thumbsup:

you know, now you have said that you are gonna have to link us a pic :yes:

Eufarius
08-25-2007, 17:08
I agree with Enthes. Bwian by saying that you have (if you want ) to show us a picture.:yes:

DrZoidberg
08-26-2007, 13:08
He didn't say he'd made it yet. Only that it will be in the first release of this mod.

Bwian
08-26-2007, 15:41
Halberdier unit for hte VC's is made ... and I have made a first attempt mesh for the Tomb King catapult... screenshots will follow, but I haven't tidied up a few details on the Halberdiers yet .... or rigged up the catapult mesh. Screens WILL follow soon :skull:

Enthes
08-26-2007, 15:50
sweet looking forward to them

Dogman55
08-26-2007, 16:19
Yay Screens! Can't wait!

Eufarius
08-26-2007, 18:10
good.

I cant wait either.:2thumbsup:

A Norseman
08-26-2007, 18:26
Nice to see you are making progress... again, keep up the good work, you have our suport!

Taranaich
08-26-2007, 20:44
Wow, so have you cracked a way to do siege engines, or have you figured a sneaky way around it?

Either way, awesome!

ElCid
09-21-2007, 02:21
greetings to the warhammeros of other places of the world, I am a Spanish boy and I want to help in the subject of warhammer, understand little of English, so I send to the messages with the help of the translator google to you, therefore when you answer me not to clear letters to the words of the sort, like for example mountains > mntns and things please because if I do not understand what you to write.

an idea that has been happened to me when there are catastrophes in the populations is that the deads by the plague or the floods can become zombis, a percentage or all. that if it is that the populations are alive...

uanime5
09-21-2007, 11:52
I'm unsure if you can receive soldiers after a flood or a plague. But it is an interesting idea.

ElCid
09-21-2007, 14:29
now I put as they are the troops, an opinion mine:2thumbsup: :

(name unit, weapon and shield, armor; in this order).

Von Carstein troops:


Basic units:

Zombie peasants (simple weapon)(nothing)
Zombie warriors (swords or axes or maces and shields)(light)
Zombie lancers (lances and shields)(light)
Zombie halberdiers (halberds)(light)

Skeletons (swords,axes or maces)(nothing)
Skeleton warriors (swords or axes or maces and shields)(light)
Skeleton lancers (lances and shields)(light)
Skeleton halberdiers (halberds)(light)
Skeleton archers (bows and daggers)(light)
Skeleton crossbowmen (crossbows and daggers)(light)

Ghouls (of beat)(nothing) flee

Flock of bats (of cut)(nothing) flee

Spectral wolves (of cut)(nothing)

Free companies (of cut)(light) flee
Crossbowmens (crossbows and daggers)(light) flee
Archers (bows and daggers)(nothing) flee
Beaters (bows and daggers)(nothing) flee


Special Units:

Guard of the wrights (swords and shields)(heavy)
Halberdiers of the wrights (halberds)(heavy)
Guard of Drakenhof (great swords)(heavy)
Black knights (swords, cavalry lances and shields)(heavy)
Heavy black knights (swords, cavalry lances and shields)(heavy)
Templers of Drakenhof (swords, cavalry lances and shields)(heavy)

Vampire bats (of cut)(nothing)

Spectrall follower (swords?)(nothing) hetereal


Singular units:

Spectral lady (sword)(nothing) hetereal

Black carriage (scythe)(nothing)


mercenaries:

Free companies (of cut)(light) flee
Crossbowmens (crossbows and daggers)(light) flee
Archers (bows and daggers)(nothing) flee
Beaters (bows and daggers)(nothing) flee
Skeletons (all types of units)
Zombies (all types of units)


characters:

King > Vampire Lord
Prince > Vampire Prince
Generals > Vampire Counts (or and Necromance Masters)
Captains > Vampires (or and Necromances, Lords Wrights, Spectres)

ElCid
09-21-2007, 19:47
Bloody Dragoon troops:

Basic units:
Zombie peasants (simple weapon)(nothing)
Zombie warriors (swords or axes or maces and shields)(light)
Zombie lancers (lances and shields)(light)
Zombie pikemens (pikes)(light)
Skeleton archers (bows and daggers)(light)
Novice Black Knights (swords, cavalry lances and shields)(heavy)
Black Knights (swords, cavalry lances and shields)(heavy)
Guard of the wrights (swords and shields)(heavy)
Halberdiers of the wrights (halberds)(heavy)
Ghouls (of beat)(nothing) flee
Spectral wolves (of cut)(nothing) flee
Flock of bats (of cut)(nothing) flee


Special units:

Skeletons ()(nothing)
Skeleton warriors (swords or axes or maces and shields)(light)
Skeleton pikemen (pikes)(light)
Skeleton lancers (lances and shields)(light)
Walker Black Knights (Greatswords)(heavy) "cavalry"
Cavalry Skeleton Archers (bows and daggers or lances)(nothing)
Cavalry Skeleton (swords or lances and shields)(light)
Relic and Skeletons (swords and shields)(light)
Black Night of pegasus (swords, cavalry lances and shields)(heavy) fly
Vampire bats (of cut)(nothing)
Spectral follower (?)(nothing)


Singular units:

Black Grial Knights (swords, cavalry lances and shields)(heavy)
Trebuchet (equivalent to Bretonnia but whit skeletons)
Black Carriage (scythe)(nothing)
Spectral Lady

Mercenaries:
skeletons(all units)
zombies(all units)

Characters:

King > Vampire Lord
Prince > Vampire Prince
Generals > Vampire Counts (or and Necromance Masters)
Captains > Vampires (or and Necromances, Lords Wrights, Spectres)

DrZoidberg
09-22-2007, 11:29
El Cid, there's a practical limit on how many new units can go into this mod. It's totaly doable to add all those troops, but not really if we're ever expecting to play it. I think we'll just have to settle for a much more modest number initially and hope that Bwian would find it in his heart to add some of those in a later version.

ElCid
09-22-2007, 13:47
I do not say that she must do it already, but soon removes a new version I believe that he serves like idea, I think that to play continuously with the same units she can tire, to have but types of units can be but addictive and juiceable.

alexader
09-22-2007, 19:14
May,I ask something(bwian don't take it personally)but i must have been confused.you are a male or female?ok i don't want to make fun with you but we will have to solve this problem.if you want to tell me bad words just pm me,i don't have problem.but i want to solve it for future posts ^-_-^

Enthes
09-22-2007, 23:25
ok what are the chances of a of a women who likes warhammer, plays game and knows how to mod thats proberly 1 in a billion



btw i was thinking couldn't you represent raising the dead with hiring lots of undead mercs wherever you go (like when you buy mercs in the americas on MTW2 there are loads when you first go in but then as you buy more and more there as less which makes sense with the whole raising dead thing) although

you could make is so they are more expensive to buy but the same upkeep as standard units that way undead wont have money problems due to upkeep

lanky316
09-23-2007, 10:13
Mercenaries can be assigned to a particular religion. Therefore we just have to ensure that only the Vampire Counts, and possibly the Tomb Kings, belong to that religion while all other factions belong to a different religion.

IF this can be done right then maybe priests as Necros will work... The VC (and TK I guess) can recruit cheap undead mercenaries in regions with an undead religion of 50% (representing the level of dark magic) Of course, this should only be the basic troops but still not sure if that's possible. Forgive me, brainstorming out loud :quiet:

Silaris
09-23-2007, 11:24
ok what are the chances of a of a women who likes warhammer, plays game and knows how to mod thats proberly 1 in a billion


Not that rare, actually.

Enthes
09-23-2007, 12:38
Not that rare, actually.

i dunno there are loads that do each but all three thats rare :yes:

ElCid
09-23-2007, 13:50
sorry by the one of “she”, but is that the translator translates bad.

the undeads have religion?

uanime5
09-23-2007, 19:06
IF this can be done right then maybe priests as Necros will work... The VC (and TK I guess) can recruit cheap undead mercenaries in regions with an undead religion of 50% (representing the level of dark magic) Of course, this should only be the basic troops but still not sure if that's possible. Forgive me, brainstorming out loud :quiet:

I'd like to point out that in the vanillia M2TW you can set mercenaries to only be recruitable by factions that are a defined religion eg Catholic or Islam. Only in Kingdoms can you restrict recruitment by how religious certain areas are. Thus you could allow the VC or TK to recruit undead mercenaries in the Empire but you could not stop them from doing this.

Love Muscle
10-04-2007, 08:03
I'm new here been watching mod for a very long time also being playing warhammer tabletop as Vampire counts for a while. I just got a few suggestions that you can take or disregard as you see fit.

-First in the campaign i believe that vampire generals shouldnt die of old age and shouldnt age. I dont know if this is possible but it sorta makes sense IMO.

-Second generals should all have night fighting bonus traits once again sorta makes sense for vampirism...

-Third probably little bit more spun out idea is a different form of currency for VC and perhaps others. Like instead of cash something like sacrifices/magic/corpses/blood. Dunno if that is possible but...

-Fourth undead should definetly have no ranged units. As a tabletop VC player it has been a given that i had no ranged units except for banshee and to add skeleton archers would sorta reck the feel of them. Just my opinion but yeah.

-All units should cause fear as fear is a VERY big part of a VC army on TT game. Also all units maybe bar ghouls should be immune to morale. This may seem overpowered but the lack of range should maybe alsmot even this out. Once again this reflects the TT where this 2 was a big part of the game. I also seem to remember in the RTW release of warhammer the demons took damage from loss of morale or in TT terms "Instability". This may apply to undead as well.

-Just a question- can unit descriptions been taken from the army books or is that illegal?

-Although i play Strigio and blood dragon armies on the TT i believe that Von Carstein should be the only bloodline available. They are the only ones amibitious enough to try to "take over the world'. Maybe your starting leader should be manfred von carstein? Depends what time in the warhammer world you are basing this game on eg be4 or after Storm of CHaos..

-No diplomats/merchants unless you turn merchants into necromancers or
something with a change of currency it might make sense... dunno

-Somehow conjure storms/floods???????

-Immune to plague but spread it in regions their armies pass through.... As well as skaven...

-No generals body guard just stick him in a unit like in the TT....

-Oh and really looking forward to dire wolves they where one of my fav units um dunno how u could make but use RTW attack dog something like that without owners...

Thats just my suggestions most are probably stupid but anyways i signed up and put my 5 c in :) Wooo cant wait awesome mod!

Silaris
10-04-2007, 16:26
I completely disagree with the idea of giving Vampire Counts no ranged units, it makes no sense when we have seen Skeleton Archers in previous editions of Warhammer. I personally think they should be in, but should be very ineffective.

Anyway, I have an idea, not entirely sure how possible it is to do. But perhaps have Undead mercenaries appearing in a territory for a few turns after you defeat an enemy force. So you can raise more troops as you march to war, just as would happen.

Bwian
10-04-2007, 20:41
As far as missile units go, I had planned to give the VC's a very minimal missile ability. Some javelin throwing is all I had lined up. The Tomb Kings have extensive archer capability, and I saw the lack of missile troops as a major differential in terms of gameplay for this faction.

Von Carsteins were the planned focus for the faction. They have the right sort of structure and back story to work in a TW mod.

Age and death would, naturally, have to be avoided. There should be no ageing if htat is possible. If it isn't, then we need to look at ways of making them live for a really long time unless actually killed in battle. This would apply the the other undead factions too.

There are some flags to set for causing fear, and this would be something that would be needed to offset the relative weakness of quite a few of the undead units. Lots to balance...but important considerations for getting the 'feel' of a faction right.

Description wise, we cannot copy copyrighted material, but we can word it our own way based on accepted canon facts. This is what we have been doing so far.

Now...Dire Wolves....would love to have them....and they can be done. It would have to be a 'cavalry' unit and there is a slight side-effect problem, where a general model could end up riding on the thing if I am not very careful... I have got around these problems before, and will need to do so again for some other similar units, where a stock approach won't work ( so they don't carry siege ladders, or push towers etc ) and also to get them behaving like a wolf / swarm of insects / chaos hound etc. I can't make more than 2 units a wardogs/pigs ... and one of those is already assigned to Squigs!

Enthes
10-04-2007, 22:55
will TK and undead have morale? as i think fleeing should only happen when general flees / dies

uanime5
10-05-2007, 12:51
Age and death would, naturally, have to be avoided. There should be no ageing if htat is possible. If it isn't, then we need to look at ways of making them live for a really long time unless actually killed in battle. This would apply the the other undead factions too.

All factions have the same age limits and age at the same rate. Though it is possible to prolong the life of the generals this would affect all factions, not just the undead ones. I don't know of any trait or trigger that can extend lifespan, but it is possible to increase a general's hit points (making them harder to kill in battle).

Love Muscle
10-06-2007, 10:28
Just had a funny idea that would be fun in multiplayer :P.

With spirit hosts what if you didnt give them a model at all.... They are completely invisible but can still attack. They would need to be like a weak swarm but capable of holding a unit. I dunno where i am going with this but i reckon it would be fun having a couple of units of invisible dudes floating around annoying enemy archers and war machine crews. Just throwing it out there :) Probably wont work that well against AI but maybe you could set it so they are always hiding even when moving. Or down from that have them hide anwhere. Of course they can still be attacked and killed but... Perhaps even a small squad of Banshees and give them like the aztec war chant ability or something i dunno. Hmmm no1 has mentioned Banshees yet :-)

Enthes
10-06-2007, 13:40
i think that is a great idea, i can imagine now you looking at a battle field only to find your best uinit stuck at the back fighting something only they can see. would be great :yes:

locked_thread
10-27-2007, 04:02
For me, I'm mostly interested in seeing a working VC campaign up and running, even with a bare-bones unit/tech tree.

So I vote for starting with just 3 unit types to get the ball rolling: Zombies, Skeletons, and General's unit.

Once it's possible to play a VC campaign, then gradually add units and supporting improvements. If possible, give VC generals a unique set of VnVs such that they tend toward very powerful traits - making their presence on the battlefield vital toward beefing up their weak troops. (Mirroring the "crumbling" effect in Warhammer.)

Bwian
10-27-2007, 11:03
We have plenty of 'bare bones' units :skull: :clown:

A Norseman
10-27-2007, 11:45
yea cyan.. Bwians amazing team will make shure there is alot more for you to play with than the zombies and skeletons.. wights and grave guards are only a few of the more exiting units..

locked_thread
10-29-2007, 19:49
yea cyan.. Bwians amazing team will make shure there is alot more for you to play with than the zombies and skeletons.. wights and grave guards are only a few of the more exiting units..
The reason I proposed restricting the units.... given the history of other ambitious mods, I'm concerned we'll end up with playable battles but not a complete campaign game.

Edit: 8 months later and still no release.... I rest my case.....

Bwian
10-29-2007, 21:06
Don;t worry... we already have that many or more units for the Empire, Dwarves, Orcs, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts and Chaos factions. We only need add Skaven, Lizards and Elves up to a basic level to be there or there abouts.

I need the part finished campaign map from Casuir to finish off, and we are campaign worthy. Build tree is already being roughed out...and I can see a campaign taking shape.

A Norseman
10-29-2007, 21:09
To realy make this the best mod ever.. ask KK to use his SS data.. that man has realy figgured out how to make the ai work

Phats
10-30-2007, 08:06
Not sure how much use it will be to you but SS uses Lusted's Campaign and Battle AI

Bwian
10-30-2007, 18:15
When I get a minute, I will drop Lusted a PM and ask him what he changed.

locked_thread
11-06-2007, 00:30
Build tree is already being roughed out...and I can see a campaign taking shape.
Awesome.... can't wait!!

Revan-Shan
11-12-2007, 22:49
-The skelletons in this picture
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9660/new1ob0.jpg
I saw sth, It's a minor problem but... well, the shields, have a skull, they should have a skull, but not a skull surrounded by a gear, thats from wrahammer 40.000

A Norseman
11-13-2007, 10:48
Necrooons !!!

Well, i dont care much.. it looks medieval to me,. :P

Enthes
11-13-2007, 14:08
i have to agree with revan the gear does look a bit weird :clown:

Krazysigmarite
11-14-2007, 02:36
Can we have the battle of Hel Fen as a historical battle, where you play as the daring Ostermark and Stirland Halberdiers who hold off the legions of undead, until the Reiksguard land their decisive flank attack?

That'd be an awesome demo battle! :skull:

DrZoidberg
11-17-2007, 15:49
-The skelletons in this picture
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9660/new1ob0.jpg
I saw sth, It's a minor problem but... well, the shields, have a skull, they should have a skull, but not a skull surrounded by a gear, thats from wrahammer 40.000


Want some cheese with the whine. That's a minute detail it's hardly worth ones effort to mention. So this particular squad showed some creative licence. They have gears in Warhammer to.

Krazysigmarite
11-17-2007, 21:30
I donno, the gear-skull is the symbol of the Adeptus Mechanicus from Warhammer 40,000 and is easily recognizable to 40k fans, which might be confusing while playing a WFB mod.

Alletun
11-17-2007, 21:50
if you want something changed i suggest that you dont just say you dont like it, but also suggest what it should be changed into. Also provide ample and good references / concepts. Thats the only way a modder will know what to change the subject in to.

just my 2 cents :balloon2:

Myrddraal
11-20-2007, 12:19
I don't know what everyone's complaining about. Revan-shan is pointing out a minor error and has given an alternative. This = constructive criticism. So the rest of you can stop whining :wink:

DrZoidberg
11-25-2007, 12:27
I don't know what everyone's complaining about. Revan-shan is pointing out a minor error and has given an alternative. This = constructive criticism. So the rest of you can stop whining :wink:

You're absolutely right. Sorry Revan-shan.

Revan-Shan
11-25-2007, 13:26
Just take a look at them:

http://es.games-workshop.com/warhammer/condes_vampiro/images/bestiario/tumularios_g.jpg

alexader
11-25-2007, 16:18
And what?you think bwian creates his units straight from his mind?C'MON,Bwian knows to mod and knows what the right models sould be,he knows about warhammer and it isn't so difficult to open the GW webpage you know.that you don't know Revan-Shan is that it needs more time and more work.not the right photo that is truly to easy to find.ok?if we waited for you to give us the pictures we wouldn't even have started the mod.believe me the webpage is truly to easy to find......:egypt:

Silaris
11-25-2007, 20:33
Why are people bitching about someone making some criticisms? Trust me, if you want to make a good mod, you need someone there who will point out some mistakes, otherwise it will not be up to the standard that it could be.

alexader
11-25-2007, 21:42
my problem is that he is pointing the picture,you understand what i mean?the picture.bwian is not making the models from his mind,he knows about warhammer.it is easy to find GW webpage,i don't think that bwian or anyone of us needs a link or a guide to find GW webpage.
I think bwian needs more time and suggestions,not a link to a picture.bwian also stated that this models are NOT grave guards,but some kind of noble dead warriors,something that Revan-Shan propably didn't had the time to look up in the threads.you undarstand know Silaris?

Silaris
11-25-2007, 23:34
bwian is not making the models from his mind,

And


bwian also stated that this models are NOT grave guards,but some kind of noble dead warriors,

Are kind of contradictory, but anyway, I already knew what you were saying, and I still see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Reference pictures are fine as long as they are not spammed constantly, afterall, one reference picture can inspire to create and edit models. And who knows, maybe the reason the picture was referenced was purely because of the shields, to give an idea into how they could look.

Punishing someone for trying to help is just plain unfair.

Myrddraal
11-26-2007, 11:30
Punishing someone for trying to help is just plain unfair.

Exactly, lets try to stay respectful at the very least gents.

alexader
11-26-2007, 14:14
if these are not grave guard,why should the shields of the grave guard be used?i am not telling that he makes a flause pointing with the picture.but it is better to read the whole threads before posting.:egypt:

Revan-Shan
11-29-2007, 18:25
Two things:

-I once said that the Vampire Counts had no archers in Warhammer. Well, it's true, in the table game they don't, the thing is that in the warhammer world (Mark of Chaos and Warmaster) they do.

-The Vampire Counts could have (as cities) a new type of map. Graveyards.

I love to battle in this maps in Mark of Chaos.

http://www.aullidos.com/imagenes/videojuegos/warhammer-1.jpg

http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/article/727/727661/warhammer-mark-of-chaos-20060823030720520.jpg

alexader
11-29-2007, 19:01
yes i think bwian has included archers even for vapmire counts :egypt:

Enthes
11-29-2007, 19:31
didnt they use to have archers in the table top game aswell?

alexader
11-29-2007, 19:43
no they don't in the tabletop game,is strange yes,but they don't

Jubal_Barca
11-29-2007, 22:24
no they don't in the tabletop game,is strange yes,but they don't
Von Carstein's do I believe?

Silaris
11-29-2007, 23:28
I remember them having archers long long ago.

Krazysigmarite
11-30-2007, 07:00
"Undead" had archers in 5th edition.

6th edition introduced the Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings of Khemri as completely differentiated teams. Before, "Undead" were essentially the two teams merged, with less fluff fleshed out.

Vampire Counts have no ranged units other than necromancers and vampires who use magic.

Tomb kings, on the other hand, have archers, though they are very poor.

ellydog
12-01-2007, 04:03
I thought Bwain was only including javilen throwers to the vampire counts, but VC arcers would be cool.

A Norseman
12-01-2007, 13:11
nahh.. VC shuld be a all melee army..
If you include archers, the AI will use the whole army all wrong.. Melee i tell you, melee..

alexader
01-29-2008, 18:37
now that the time brought,the new vampire counts are going to be realesed.they are magnificient models and that will be the reason that i will start a new army.bwian,give them a check(they are trully perfect).and by the way,where are you so long????hhmmm,family's responsibilities?are you ok or something???but nevermind,if you have troubles,we can wait!!!!!!whenever you want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LONG LIVE BWIAN!!!!!!!!!(i never undestand if this is your real name:wall: ):egypt:

DrZoidberg
01-29-2008, 19:20
now that the time brought,the new vampire counts are going to be realesed.they are magnificient models and that will be the reason that i will start a new army.bwian,give them a check(they are trully perfect).and by the way,where are you so long????hhmmm,family's responsibilities?are you ok or something???but nevermind,if you have troubles,we can wait!!!!!!whenever you want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LONG LIVE BWIAN!!!!!!!!!(i never undestand if this is your real name:wall: ):egypt:

I'm assuming "Bwian", is his real name if pronounced by the governor of Judea. But that's just a wild guess.

alexader
01-29-2008, 19:24
yeah,i thought of that.LOL.you know.....Bwian ith thhat thou?(say it like the govenor.hahahahahha):egypt:

Born in lust for blood
01-31-2008, 17:50
Von Carstein's do I believe?


Yeap. In the storm of chaos von carstein army list the vampires had skeletons troops armed with crossbows. Check it out.

Taranaich
02-06-2008, 16:09
Some of the new Vampire Count models are awesome:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/vampirecounts/miniature-gallery/images/crypt_ghouls.jpg

Crypt Ghouls

Crypt Ghouls are ugly, stooping creatures with only a vestigial sense of reason. Their skin is dark and filthy, their eyes bestial and insane, and their snarling lips reveal sharp-pointed teeth in their slavering mouths. They dress only in the rags they pull from their victims and carry weapons they have picked up or have crudely fashioned from the remains of their unwholesome meals. They do not need such implements, however, as they have long claws sufficient for their needs. These natural weapons are encrusted with the filth of decay. Those that take even the lightest scratch from a Crypt Ghoul's swipe might die from their infected wounds.

Though not truly the living dead, Crypt Ghouls can unconsciously feel the Dark Magic that surrounds all of the most powerful Undead lords. They are drawn to Vampires like moths to a flame, and their newfound master quickly dominates their weak wills. Crypt Ghouls are cowardly, selfish creatures and will usually slink away from combat in small groups rather than retreat or rout en masse like a regiment. Though they cannot literally be raised like the living dead, Crypt Ghouls can be summoned through Dark Magic. Those who are fleeing are infused with the ire of their master and they unwillingly rejoin their packs. Crypt ghouls tend to follow the armies of the Undead, seeking to feast on the battlefield after the enemy has been defeated. These skulking onlookers can be gripped by the power of the Undead commander and dragged forth to bolster the numbers of their filthy kin.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/vampirecounts/miniature-gallery/images/corpse_cart.jpg

Corpse Cart

When Vlad unleashed the armies of Sylvania upon the Empire, between the trudging crowds of Zombies and the ranks of Skeletons could be seen the disgusting Corpse Carts. Driven by macabre, shrouded figures, these wagons are made of rotted wood, rusted metal and diseased flesh, heaped with writhing body parts. Clawed limbs reach out from the Corpse Cart's interior to grab at those close by. The Corpse Carts act like magnets to Dark Magic, drawing its power from the ground and air and animating the dead around them. Sometimes a Corpse Cart is hung with a great bell, with a clapper of pure warpstone. When Necromantic magic is cast upon the Corpse Cart the bell tolls menacingly and ripples of Dark Magic spread out from the Corpse Cart. Under the influence of this mystical knell, the dead are drawn back together and corpses stagger to their feet. Other times, Corpse Carts have been sighted with braziers burning with dark flames. The smoke from these balefires contains particles of warpstone, which interfere with the Winds of Magic and drive enemy wizards insane.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/vampirecounts/miniature-gallery/images/varghulf.jpg

Varghulf

Within every Vampire lurks a predatory creature, driven to feed on blood time and again. For many Vampires it is a curse, something to keep in check, an unavoidable price for their powers. These Vampires maintain the pretences of the living, moving amongst human society and concealing their nature. Yet not all Vampires care for the trappings of life or seek to control their inner urges. There are a few Vampires who embrace their thirst, who allow the bestial hunter within to take over.

These are the Varghulfs � blood-mad killers that exist only to feed. Like enraged, starved wolves, they run rampant, devouring whole villages and yet never sating their thirst. They slaughter without mercy, luxuriating in bloody carnage. As well as devouring the living, a Varghulf will ransack graves and feast upon the bodies of the dead. Other Vampires consider them disgusting scavengers, though nonetheless desirable and deadly fighters despite their uncivilised behaviour.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/vampirecounts/miniature-gallery/images/cairn_wraiths.jpg

Cairn Wraiths

Cairn Wraiths and Tomb Banshees are amongst the most powerful of the Undead. Though they lack physical form, their touch drains the life of a mortal. Their very presence fills the air with dread, and most who face them are driven mad with fear long before they are killed. Though possessed of their own will, there are rituals that a Vampire uses to call forth these unquiet spirits and bind them to his army. Filled with rage, the spirits fall upon the enemy. Only when released can they return to their dismal abodes.

Before the founding of the Colleges of Magic, men knew little about the magical arts. For thousands of years there were tribal wise men, gifted seers, healers, astrologers and others who were viewed with suspicion, awe or fear. Through a quirk of nature or mindset, these lucky few were able to use the Winds of Magic with relative safety. For most, the only magic that could be harnessed was sorcery � the use of magic in its undivided form. These sorcerers dabbled with magical energies, scribbling their sporadic findings into stone tablets, recording their crude knowledge on ancient vellum and crumbling parchments. Many did not realise the dangers of what they were doing, nor the harm their magic did to those around them. Slowly, the sorcery corrupted them. These sorcerers became steeped in Dark Magic and they learned to extend the span of their lives by decades, even centuries.

However, there were many who only preserved their spirits and not their bodies. Decay would take a sorcerer's mortal body, rotting it away even as he sought to sustain it. With no corporeal form to speak of, these sorcerers became wandering spirits � wraiths, spectres, ghosts. As their grip on the world of mortals weakened, these vagrant souls were drawn by Dark Magic to places of death, where they lingered, feeding on the sorrow of mourners. Not truly alive but unable to die, they became chilling shadows caught between this world and the next. Bound in the mortal realm to tombs and barrows, swathed in robes of shadow like visions of Death, these spirits became Cairn Wraiths.

Many sorceresses, enchantresses and witches have plagued Man over the centuries. The most bitter, restless spirits of these evil-hearted women become Tomb Banshees. Known as Grave Harridans in the southern Empire, The Wailing Hags in Bretonnia and the Freezing Shriek by Dwarfs, these shades cannot pass into the afterlife. They fear to cross the void and face whatever punishment awaits them for their evil deeds. Tomb Banshees constantly howl in remembrance of the pleasures of life that were theirs, and in bitterness for the peace of the grave that they cannot attain. Their wail can be lethal to mortals, and strikes terror into the hearts of all who hear it. Those who do not have hearts of iron can die of sheer fright upon hearing their mournful screams.

A Tomb Banshee's visage is skull-like, framed by tattered shadows of hair that writhe like a nest of serpents. She is swathed in flimsy shrouds and grave-robes, which swirl with a life of their own. A Tomb Banshee is surrounded by flickering ghostlights � the souls of the men she murdered whilst alive.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/vampirecounts/miniature-gallery/images/blood_knights.jpg

Blood Knights

Many years ago, the people of the Empire would have named the knights of the Order of the Blood Dragon amongst the noblest of warriors defending their lands. Their great fortress, Blood Keep, guarded the passes to Bretonnia and was famed for the strength of its walls and the valour of its defenders. As the Tome of Lamentations records, one night a man of great stature and noble bearing appeared before the gates and demanded entrance. He named himself as Walach of the Harkon family, and when the knights opened the gates, they sealed their doom.

Walach challenged the knights to combat. He slew them with ease, for he was a Vampire who had learned his war craft from the great Abhorash. Though no knight could hope to defeat the Undead monster, Walach spared those who fought bravely and with honour. To these knights he passed on his vampirism, the others he slew without pause and fed on their blood. Blood Keep became a Vampire lair, from which the deadly knights preyed upon those they once protected. Many decades later, the witch hunter Gunther van Hel discovered the truth and attacked Blood Keep with an army sent from Wissenland and Reikland, and supported by four Knightly Orders. The siege lasted for three years, during which the bloodshed was like nothing the men of the Empire had seen. Van Hel and his soldiers destroyed many Vampires when they finally stormed the castle, and hunted the survivors through the wilds for years to come. Blood Keep fell into ruin and its evil masters passed into myth.

The Blood Dragons may have been defeated, but some escaped, scattering across the Empire, Bretonnia, Tilea and further afield. Accomplished with lance and sword, these warriors became dark mercenaries, solitary duellists and fearsome raiders.

The Blood Knights are a macabre parody of the virtuous templars that Walach turned. Though they retain the dragon as their symbol, their armour is encrusted with images of death and slaughter. Their blades are fell weapons inscribed with dark runes, chased with precious metals and fashioned in the likeness of evil beasts. The blazons and crests of Blood Keep take the shape of dragons and dragon wings. The knights do not ride flesh-and-blood horses, but charge upon evil Nightmares with fiery eyes and foetid breath, clad in thick barding painted with disturbing icons of necromantic power.

Now, centuries after the demise of their order, there are whispers that Blood Keep is once again inhabited. Those who live near the mountains say nocturnal hunters perturb the folk of the Dwarf Holds. Gossipmongers claim that immortal knights once more feast on human blood in the ancient halls, and skeletal sentries patrol the ramparts. Some even say that dread Walach has returned, and that he is gathering his forces to wage war upon the lands of men that tried to destroy him.

They are the most fearsome knights in all of the Old World. Their training and discipline in life is married with the unnatural speed and strength of Undeath. The Blood Knights are nigh indestructible, and their bloodthirst makes them ferocious and implacable. Such is their honour that they will refuse no challenge, and will fight at the forefront of an army. It is said that even the fabled Grail Knights of Bretonnia cannot match the Blood Knights on the field of battle.

As well as these, there are spiffy new models for grave Guard, Skeletons, Bat Swarms etc.

Is modelling too far gone to include some of these units? The Varghulf in particular is awesome.

Jonlissla
02-07-2008, 14:28
It is said that even the fabled Grail Knights of Bretonnia cannot match the Blood Knights on the field of battle.

Bah! We'll see about that when King Leon finally unites whole Bretonnia by purging Mousillion! Then we can focus at other matters at hand... like bloodsuckers.... :knight:

Lady of the Lake FTW! :2thumbsup:




Is modelling too far gone to include some of these units? The Varghulf in particular is awesome.

I don't THINK it's possible, but Bwian/Alletun has surprised me plenty of times already.

A Norseman
02-07-2008, 15:57
Ghouls:
I don’t know enough about modelling to say if those are do able or not, but my bet goes to the “to much work to be worth it” option. Remember, Ghouls are cowardly creeping creatures; the upright human skeletons would not do them justice. If a own skeleton is made for skinks, there may be light at the end of the tunnel. But I don’t think so.

Corpse Chart:
This will never see the total war battlefield.
Bwian is constructing a model for chariots to be allowed in game; however, magic corpse collectors who raise slain soldiers are never going to happen. Vampire counts will get a Black Coach at best.

Varghulf:
Impossible, I say. Only humanoid and elephanthonid creatures are possible to make.


Cairn Wraiths: I wuld really hope for this one? I mean, witch vampire generals would NOT have a unit of scythe wielding black reapers at the tip of their tech tree to aspire to?
One note: Make them wear black robes, and add a head variation of one wearing hood.

Blood Knights:
One of the easiest to include, as Similar steeds and armour will still be used for mounted vampire lords. It would have to be really fun to have in game. Blood Knights, do – able and awesome.

Taranaich
02-07-2008, 18:04
I figured the Corpse Cart would be out, I just wanted to post a picture of it. :beam:

I can see the Ghouls using a Skaven/Skink skeleton. Varghulf could possibly use a large humanoid skeleton like the Troll one, but yeah it's probably out there too.

DrZoidberg
02-07-2008, 19:06
Ghouls:
I don’t know enough about modelling to say if those are do able or not, but my bet goes to the “to much work to be worth it” option. Remember, Ghouls are cowardly creeping creatures; the upright human skeletons would not do them justice. If a own skeleton is made for skinks, there may be light at the end of the tunnel. But I don’t think so.

Corpse Chart:
This will never see the total war battlefield.
Bwian is constructing a model for chariots to be allowed in game; however, magic corpse collectors who raise slain soldiers are never going to happen. Vampire counts will get a Black Coach at best.

Varghulf:
Impossible, I say. Only humanoid and elephanthonid creatures are possible to make.


Cairn Wraiths: I wuld really hope for this one? I mean, witch vampire generals would NOT have a unit of scythe wielding black reapers at the tip of their tech tree to aspire to?
One note: Make them wear black robes, and add a head variation of one wearing hood.

Blood Knights:
One of the easiest to include, as Similar steeds and armour will still be used for mounted vampire lords. It would have to be really fun to have in game. Blood Knights, do – able and awesome.

Since I'm writing the unit cards I've had a discussion with Bwian about this... It was almost a year ago. But Ghoul unit cards were requested, and have been written, so I'm pretty sure they'll be included. If nothing wonky happened along the way.

Blood Dragons are in just because Bwian thinks they're cool. It does require some creative thinking, since Blood Dragons are unaffiliated slayers of anything they deem a worthy opponent. Also champion units, rather than squads. But that said, they're still in the mod.

Wraiths are also planned to go in it. There was some transparency issue that still needs solving.

Dire wolves is one of those Bwian wants to add, but wasn't sure could.

All the funky ones were not included because it was too much work vs the pay off.

I hope I haven't said too much now.

ElCid
03-23-2008, 03:59
I think we should have skeletons archers, crossbowmen and javaliners because there are many bodies scattered throughout Sylvania with different weaponry.

I give reasons:

Bow: any army units with a projectile has archers (Bretonnia, Empire, Greenskins, Tomb Kings, High Elves, Elves Forest). It is a common weapon but that requires a minimum training to learn to use it.

Crossbow: easier to use than a bow, any farmer with a minimum training could use the crossbow (as the Empire currently uses the crossbow and armies fallen ancient pre-gunpowder used crossbows (or arches), it would be logical to put skeletons crossbowmen) .

Javelin: the ancient tribes that lived in the Empire and Bretonnia surely lead javelins.

The skeletons archebusiers is too strong for the vampire counts (mixing power harquebus with the fear of unity think it is too powerful), I think it is not a good idea.

Jonlissla
03-23-2008, 11:01
The skeletons archebusiers is too strong for the vampire counts (mixing power harquebus with the fear of unity think it is too powerful), I think it is not a good idea.

Not to mention the fact that the skeletons would break becuase of the recoil.
Hehe, like that suicide squad in "Life of Brian"..... :laugh4:


I think we should have skeletons archers, crossbowmen and javaliners because there are many bodies scattered throughout Sylvania with different weaponry.

I agree with this, but I'm not sure if Bwian is gonna make custom units, or if he's following the armybooks through and through.

fireblade
03-23-2008, 14:44
I oppose to the idea of skeleton archers, crossbows or whatever. Vampire counts are winning through numbers, fear and a few uber-units, not by firing volleys at them.

Javelins might do maybe, but make sure to turn the skirmish mode off, Their only charge reaction is hold in warhammer.

If you want undead archers, play tomb kings.

Fireblade

alexader
03-23-2008, 16:20
and i will oppose to this.vampire counts should't have any missile troops!!!archebusiers?????????????????why don't we give them even steam tanks???or snipers??????????no no,it's not very common to them,the only ranged attack the army has is the growl of the bannsee,and the one that i should think appropriate for use would be to include the ghouls to throw rocks before charge!!!:egypt:

Goncalou
03-24-2008, 00:36
Blood Dragons are in just because Bwian thinks they're cool. It does require some creative thinking, since Blood Dragons are unaffiliated slayers of anything they deem a worthy opponent. Also champion units, rather than squads. But that said, they're still in the mod.

Wraiths are also planned to go in it. There was some transparency issue that still needs solving.

Dire wolves is one of those Bwian wants to add, but wasn't sure could.

All the funky ones were not included because it was too much work vs the pay off.

I hope I haven't said too much now.

I think the dire wolves should be able to go in cause in RTW they had those dog and pig packs for some teams so if able you could use skeleton from them.:couch:

ElCid
03-31-2008, 14:24
Storm chaos in the army of silvania has skeletons with crossbows, impacting 6 and injuring 6 but forcefully 4. If the army is silvania you could add these. Do not going to put more troop types of men at arms of Bretonnia?, The counts vampire we have the right to take it more types of skeletons.

Skeletons with harquebus?, The setback would not be a problem, now remain with the warpstone said that the new book army. Just that I do not get much unbalanced because the game.

fireblade
04-02-2008, 07:49
Well, I don't expect to see every storm of chaos list present in the mod.

About the men at arms of bretonnia, I'm not sure if that has been decided already (Just the troops from the army books please :yes: )

Vampire counts are not supposed to have archers, it is not the vampire way, so to speak.

Fireblade

Goncalou
04-08-2008, 17:38
And



Are kind of contradictory, but anyway, I already knew what you were saying, and I still see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Reference pictures are fine as long as they are not spammed constantly, afterall, one reference picture can inspire to create and edit models. And who knows, maybe the reason the picture was referenced was purely because of the shields, to give an idea into how they could look.

Punishing someone for trying to help is just plain unfair.
No he's right they are still from some vc army list they're wights not grave guard.

Slanted
07-14-2008, 15:02
In rome total war there were some traits and retinue members that increased the chance that dead soldiers would be healed and ready for battle and some the casualties are still healed in Medieval 2 so you could mod those into the game so that almost all of the killed soldiers come back to emulate nocromancy.

Goncalou
03-10-2009, 23:41
Slanted that's the best suggestion ive seen on this page, but then again it's also the only one so i guess it's also, the worst suggestion i've seen on this page, and the shortest and the longest and blah blah blah blah blah.

Alucard
05-21-2009, 16:08
I've just found this mod page and has been reading through this thread. What i was thinking about is how you are going to set the upkeep for the "Mercenary" Zombies and skeletons aswell as the retraining. In my opinion the upkeep should be considered to be 0 or very low. And then balancing that out by setting a very high upkeep on the Elite units as some people mentioned before.

In M2TW you can't retrain merc units so that would need to be solved or just let the player recruit new ones instead as zombies can't get experience in the same way as units that aren't controlled by someone elses mind. But it would be a bit wierd if you couldn't replenish the units numbers as they are just cannon fodder and low upkeep, as a commander i would always want them at full numbers.

I was also thinking about the routing a bit. I think it would be pretty cool if the zombie/skeletons(Mindless units) weren't able to flee as long as the commander is alive. Concernings the other units in the faction they shouldn't be able to rout either as undead and vampires can't actually feel fear.

I dont really know what's possible to do with the game engine.

britzrules
10-11-2009, 12:19
putting my two cents in here....

having played many a battle against the undead it goes without saying that the general being alive bonus to the troops should be enormous, i.e. they wont flee but will fight to the death. therefore any body controlling the undead has to be careful as to whether they ever commit their general (who should be incredibly powerful), i think this method could incorporate the fear factor as the other side gets gradually worn down by always having to kill the opposition because they wont flee.

also, i have only flicked through this thread, but i dont think anybody mentioned black coachs which are the undeads mighty (pain in the arse) chariots.