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Bwian
05-01-2007, 21:30
Some problems here with these units until we are able to vary the scale of units. Clanrats and slaves need to be smaller than human normal, whilst Rat Ogres would be larger. I am assuming we will be able to accomplish this with the work currentl ongoing on animations looking very promising.

Unit:

1) Clanrat Slaves

2) Clanrats

3) Storm Vermin

4) Night Runner

5) Poisoned Wind Globadiers

6) Gutter Runner

7) Warplock Jezzails

8) Plague Monk

9) Rat Ogre

10) Warp Lightning Cannon

These guys, as with quite afew of the Warhammer factions seem quite light in the missile weapon department. I am not sure why, but there is no mention of simple missile weapons here of the bow and arrow type! Cause of much discussion in my wargaming days.....

Bob the Spork
05-01-2007, 21:49
If you can do the dire wolves you mention in the Vampire Counts thread, then you can do the skaven's giant rats. Can't have a skaven army without a few giant rats.

Bwian
05-01-2007, 21:58
Scaling of skeletons and new animations are needed for both...but yes. They can be done!

I also thought of doing ordinary rat swarms in the same way as the tomb swarms. I have been experimenting with these by just putting a bunch of really small models onto a unit. They actually look quite good. They could be improved with careful animation :yes:

Meneldil
05-01-2007, 23:00
I know this isn't doable with MTW2 engine, but having Screaming Bells on a battlefield would have been great :yes:

As for the Warplock Jezzails, how do you plan to make them ? Have them working as regular handgunners ?

uanime5
05-02-2007, 03:04
I'm guessing the Skaven will use large numbers of weak troops to overwhelm their opponents.

Also will they have more powerful / cheaper agents, such as spys and assassins; and should the generals all have the night fighter trait (assuming it can be coded)?

Bob the Spork
05-02-2007, 07:59
Screaming bell could possibly be done. Maybe something along the lines of the big Standard thing that Milan has? I think it's Milan, but maybe Venice? One of them. As in, it has a bodyguard of stormvermin and a morale boost effect around it to represent a Gray Seer being there.

Casuir
05-02-2007, 08:15
They're not in the 6th edition so thats probably why Bwian hasnt got them in there, they are possible though if he wants to include them. Warpfire throwers could also be possible looking at the kingdoms expansion, not sure about the doomwheel.

Bwian
05-02-2007, 09:01
Flamethrowers were extremely possible in RTW, just by changing properties on the missile and generating a particle trail. Unless they have really changed things, I don;t think there is a need to have the expansion just to do this :laugh4:

I can look at the possibility of things like the Screaming Bell ... it would make an impressive sight on the battlefield.

Also...as to unit 'balance' I envisage the Skaven as having large numbers of cheap units early on, which would make them a dangerous force in the early game. they lack quantities of heavy troops....so as the other factions develop, they will find themselves increasingly pressured. Development of firearms and heavy weapons will be their necessary survival strategy, along with the reliance on assasins and spies to undermine the enemy. Storm out, fight hard early on, and hang on! They would also have to rely on multiple waves of armies to wear down enemy troops who would take longer to replace losses. Battles of attrition would be the key. I think they could be a very interesting faction to play!

uanime5
05-02-2007, 18:58
The Skaven may also need to develop something to combat heavy cavelry, which can tear through non-spear infantry with ease.

Bwian
05-02-2007, 19:40
Storm Vermin armed with spears to hold up cavalry, and Rat Ogres to tear them into mincemeat. When they run, pick off the survivors with warplock fire.

Bob the Spork
05-02-2007, 23:03
Yes. I think Stormvermin, Rat Ogres and Jezzails should be the anti heavy cavalry ones. All of them can take them on in the game.

uanime5
05-07-2007, 14:53
Will there be one Skaven faction or will there be four (representing the 4 great clans)?

Bwian
05-07-2007, 15:21
Just the one faction. I don't thikn there is enough variation in the clans to make it worth the effort, and it would congest the map some more!

Chaos is only getting multiple factions because there is room up there on the map, and the different Gods bring different units and play-styles.

alexader
05-07-2007, 15:59
Bwian ,what do you think about the Empire,how you will me her?I'm talking about the coulors,will be one faction with individual colours from region to region,is this possible?:egypt:

Casuir
05-07-2007, 16:00
Skaven settlements are pretty spread out, it'll probably end up like you're playing seperate factions with a central economy.

DrZoidberg
05-07-2007, 16:02
Will there be one Skaven faction or will there be four (representing the 4 great clans)?

In the Warhammer world they are ruled by the Council of Thirteen, (but in practice eleven). Even though the union is pretty fragile and marred by constant rivalry and in-fighting, it would be more true to both Warhammer and playability if they wheren't seperate. They are seperate both culturally and politically, but not in such a way as to effect the game in any way.

Meneldil
05-07-2007, 16:04
Just the one faction. I don't thikn there is enough variation in the clans to make it worth the effort, and it would congest the map some more!

Chaos is only getting multiple factions because there is room up there on the map, and the different Gods bring different units and play-styles.

Hum, speaking of that, how are you going to handle Skavens' cities ? From what I know, apart Skavenblight, they mainly live under human cities. I think it could be a nice addition to play as a given skaven clan, and to have to unify the clans. Other clans could be represented as rebel factions.

DrZoidberg
05-07-2007, 16:12
Hum, speaking of that, how are you going to handle Skavens' cities ? From what I know, apart Skavenblight, they mainly live under human cities. I think it could be a nice addition to play as a given skaven clan, and to have to unify the clans. Other clans could be represented as rebel factions.

It shouldn't be a problem. If the Skavens conquer another races city then it's their's no matter if they chose to live under it. It's who ever controls the above ground who is the ruler, right? Even in Warhammer.

Casuir
05-07-2007, 17:28
They have other settlements, Hell pit, foul peak, black chasm are a few, theres probably more.

Detlef
05-08-2007, 19:29
Just a thought, but isn't it better to save Skaven for the add-on? Because of the Greek Firethrower? You know, M2TW: Kingdoms (of which I haven't seen any news article on this site (?)

Bwian
05-08-2007, 20:06
Unless they took something fundamental out for the game from RTW, flamethrowers are already possible. Made 'em for RTW.

The ballistas and catapults can still fire flaming projectiles, and troops still burn if they hit ... and this burn code is what the thing uses to work. Add in a simple projectile to make the 'hit' part, add a suitable particle trail ... and you have a flame gun. The add-on may make this prettier....but it isn't essential.

I am dubious about making a mod specifically for the add-on, sine not everyone buys the add-ons. BI gave graphical improvements, scorpion carts ( which I turned into tanks ) and these were good. IF hte add-on brings more things we can use ....like..say...chariots, then I would consider migrating the mod over. Otherwise...we will carry on, and see what the add-on brings us.

Detlef
05-08-2007, 20:47
oke, well good luck with the mod ^^

Jargon
05-13-2007, 00:49
Anyone thought about who the starting generals for Skaven should be? From the meager material iv’e read up on, I think there are three possibilities:

Option One: Council Rule

You actually play selected members of the Council of Thirteen. It is run by the Seerlord, and all the major clans are represented. I am against this idea, as the Council doesn’t do the actual military work, they send other people out to do it for them. They should remain in the shadows.

Faction Leader: Lord Kritslik the Seerlord
Lord Paskrit, Warlord-General of all Skavendom
Lord Sneek, Lord of Decay, Nightlord of Clan Eshin
Arch Plaguelord Nurglitch of Clan Pestilens
Lord Verminkin, Packlord of Clan Moulder
Lord Morskittar-Lord Warlock of Clan Skryre

Option Two: Skaven Characters Rule

The characters from the table top game become the generals. I think this is the preferred option as the characters are much more fleshed out and will be recognizable to Skaven players. I used Lord Paskrit to tie the characters together because he has the title of Warlord-General of all Skavendom, and at least is a member of the Council.

I would like to say that this option will allow them to receive noble/guild missions addressed from the Council Of Thirteen, but how missions will be implemented is still being debated.

Faction Leader: Lord Paskrit, Warlord-General of all Skavendom
Ikit Claw, Chief Warlock Clan Skryre
Lord Skrolk, Plaguelord of Clans Pestilens
Warlord Queek Head Taker
Throt the Unclean
Grey Seer Thanquol & Boneripper (if not used as an agent)

Option Three: One Clan Rule

Following the discussion taking place in Vampire Counts, another possibility is to have your generals from just one clan. Clan Skyre seems the strongest and most interesting option. Personally I would go for Option 2.

Faction Leader: Lord Morskittar-Lord Warlock of Clan Skryre
Ikit Claw, Chief Warlock Clan Skryre
Grey Seer Thanquol & Boneripper
Other Skyre characters here…

DrZoidberg
05-13-2007, 07:57
We could have a combination. The council of thirteen is a govorning body of extreme intrigues and backstabbing politics. One member is likely to be more dominant than the others.

We could have the council of thirteen but have the "faction leader" as the "most dominant council member". We could have have "council member" as a generals trait, "This character sits on the council of thirteen who together rule all Skavendom. This gives him immense power and authority +3 to authority +2 to dread".

This solution would be pretty sweet because 11 members of the council is warlords and we have no Warhammer story conflicts in having them run around leading armies. It's members are not permanently in Skavenblight, all they do is attend meetings at intervals, or send emissaries in their place if they're tied up.

Jargon
05-13-2007, 11:26
It will be difficult to have a combination, as there only so many generals each faction will start with. Would you select the council members as generals over characters which can actually be fielded in a Skaven table top game? I assume each faction wouldn't have more than five-six starting generals, but I may be wrong on this, and maybe Bwian is willing to add 7-10 characters per faction. There certainly isnt a lack of characters to use in the Warhammer world.

The Council of Thirteen list:

Seat One- Lord Kritslik the Seerlord
Seat Two- Greylord Skrisnik-Warlord and Seer of Clan Skrisnik
Seat Three-Lord Sneek, Lord of Decay, Nightlord of Clan Eshin
Seat Four- Lord Paskrit, Warlord-General of all Skavendom
Seat Five- Lord Kratch Doomclaw-Clan Warlord of Clan Rictus
Seat Six- Lord Gnawdwell-Clan Warlord of Clan Mors
Seat Seven-Lord Vittrik
Seat Eight- Arch Plaguelord Nurglitch of Clan Pestilens
Seat Nine- Lord Verminkin, Packlord of Clan Moulder
Seat Ten- Lord Azarskittar-Greylord of the Southlands
Seat Eleven-Lord Burr-Keeper of the Temple
Seat Twelve-Lord Morskittar-Lord Warlock of Clan Skryre

Lord Kritslik and Lord Morskittar both have veto powers, and I think are the two most powerful Council members. Maybe combine the two of them with normal generals like Ikit Claw, Lord Skrolk, Warlord Queek Head Taker and Throt the Unclean. You would therefore be the 'head' of the Skaven as the Seerlord, with famous generals under you. But that would mean only one major clan leader would be represented, which is a bit strange.

Maybe, get rid of Throt the Unclean, and have the Seerlord, the four clan leaders, Ikit Claw, Lord Skrolk and Warlord Queek Head Taker as the starting generals, for a total of 8 characters. Five Council members and three of their most famous generals. Is that too many, or just right? Any new generals spawned would be at the same level as Ikit, Skrolk and Queek, and have to work their way up the food chain.

Having Council Member is a great idea for a trait. There are lots of other interesting titles that can be used, such as Seer, Seerlord, Plaguelord, Packlord, Lord Warlock, Warlord, Nightlord, Lord of Decay. Is there a way that only one person can have a trait like Nightlord or Plaguelord at any one time, and once they die the trait goes back onto the market for someone else to pick up? Lots of interesting stats and options to play with here :laugh4:

Jargon
05-13-2007, 11:57
Visit here for a biography of each of the council members: http://underempire.net/index.php?showtopic=19404&st=15

I just read this:


The members of the Council are known as the Lords of Decay.

Lord of Decay sounds a much cooler trait than "council member", with the description and bonuses you posted above DrZoidberg.

DrZoidberg
05-13-2007, 12:16
Membership on the council is nothing permanent and they come and go regularly and suddenly. It's only the represantative of the Grey Seers that stick around but the army books hint on that even they get knocked off now and again if they start meddling too much in the politics.

So I don't really see any problems. The only problem as I see it is the heritage and the family tree. It's more like the Soviet Kremlin or Peoples Congress of China where heritage means nothing. Only contacts.

We could simply rename it, ("political affiliations" or something) but would that work for only one faction?

Cavalyn
05-13-2007, 17:55
Heya, just noticed your mod here and thought id offer any help I can. Not sure, you may already be in control of this. But I have the army books for High Elves and Skaven (More useful at this point). So if there is anything you would like to know, feel free to email me. Please actually email me lol, much easier than me checking this every now and then.

Please dont email for silly reasons or to annoy me lol.

Cavartiash@hotmail.co.uk

Jargon
05-14-2007, 08:15
Hey Cavalyn, thanks for the offer. What would be more useful for the discussion is for people like yourself to read what has already been brought up and make corrections or contribute new ideas. We can't email you questions for areas or ideas we havn't even thought to think of. The main issue is trying to bottle the Warhammer world into the MTW2 system.

Dr Zoidberg, I understand the heritage problem you are talking about, and was thinking of the possibilites today. It will be a problem for a lot of factions that dont give birth normally or have normal family lines, like Chaos and Tomb Kings, and so i'm sure a more neutral message will take the place of "Your New Son is Born." Your idea of 'political affiliation' sounds appropriate.

For Skaven, could all the starting generals who are Lords of Decay be the children of the Lord Seer? I think there is a max of 4 male children per faction leader, which works out nicely for the four clans. That way, the Seer can make any one of the clan leaders his heir, which I suppose makes sense.

What happens in MTW2 when every member of the royal family dies? Does it switch to a general, or does the game end?

DrZoidberg
05-14-2007, 10:04
What happens in MTW2 when every member of the royal family dies? Does it switch to a general, or does the game end?

It is also known as "having your ass handed to you". In MTW2, (and all the TW games if I'm not mistaken) you are always playing a family and not a country. Even if you've lost all your territories. As long as you have family members still alive you can still play.

Casuir
05-14-2007, 10:54
Visit here for a biography of each of the council members: http://underempire.net/index.php?showtopic=19404&st=15


Thats not an official gw site so anything from it should be taken with a pinch of salt. It also openly discuss's and has members offering pirating gw material which is an area we should be steering well clear of.

Jargon
05-14-2007, 10:55
Hey Cavalyn, thanks for the offer. What would be more useful for the discussion is for people like yourself to read what has already been brought up and make corrections or contribute new ideas. We can't email you questions for areas or ideas we havn't even thought to think of. The main issue is trying to bottle the Warhammer world into the MTW2 system.

Dr Zoidberg, I understand the heritage problem you are talking about, and was thinking of the possibilites today. It will be a problem for a lot of factions that dont give birth normally or have normal family lines, like Chaos and Tomb Kings, and so i'm sure a more neutral message will take the place of "Your New Son is Born." Your idea of 'political affiliation' sounds appropriate.

For Skaven, could all the starting generals who are Lords of Decay be the children of the Lord Seer? I think there is a max of 4 male children per faction leader, which works out nicely for the four clans. That way, the Seer can make any one of the clan leaders his heir, which I suppose makes sense.

What happens in MTW2 when every member of the royal family dies? Does it switch to a general, or does the game end?

Jargon
05-14-2007, 11:07
Sorry for the double post.

I would edit out the link for you Casuir but I can't. One of the books they use is meant to be have been uploaded legally online, I just assumed the information was from that. I thught I had found a treasure trove of information, but i'll now leave it to other people who can confrim it before making any more sugestions.

Casuir
05-14-2007, 11:32
Had a look and it looks like the book is actually a fan-made piece for the first edition of wfrp. So no worries about it being pirated material, its usefulness as a source of background info though is nil. Theres a lot of fan-made stuff for the first edition of wfrp, some of its way off the bat.

Far as official sources go theres children of the horned rat for wfrp second edition and the black librarys loathsome ratmen. First one has info on the council which doesnt match up with whats posted here.

uanime5
05-14-2007, 12:25
Dr Zoidberg, I understand the heritage problem you are talking about, and was thinking of the possibilites today. It will be a problem for a lot of factions that dont give birth normally or have normal family lines, like Chaos and Tomb Kings, and so i'm sure a more neutral message will take the place of "Your New Son is Born." Your idea of 'political affiliation' sounds appropriate.

It is possible to change the name of events for different cultures. Perhaps it should be 'a new member of your clan has joined the council'. However the fact that a character has to be married to produce children will require a lot of creativity to change.


For Skaven, could all the starting generals who are Lords of Decay be the children of the Lord Seer? I think there is a max of 4 male children per faction leader, which works out nicely for the four clans. That way, the Seer can make any one of the clan leaders his heir, which I suppose makes sense.

This could easily be done. There is no limit to how extended the starting family can be, though the ages must be correct (so a son cannot be 3 years older than his father).


What happens in MTW2 when every member of the royal family dies? Does it switch to a general, or does the game end?

By Royal family do you mean the ruling family or every single family member? Only in the case of the latter is the facton wiped out (though I've heard that the HRE can elect a new faction leader, thus survive).

Jargon
05-15-2007, 13:20
Cavalyn was nice enough to mail me some Skaven info and ideas. Thanks for the help mate. I asked him to paraphrase the rule book rather than copy it word for word, hopefully no rules have been broken.
Cavalyn' email:
The Skaven structure is hundreds of clans, most are warlord clans with
slaves and clanrats and stormvermin ruled over by a warlord. There are four
major clans. Clans Pestilens, clan Eshin, Clan Moulder and clan Skyre. These
clans although allied, are by no means friendly. Might I suggest a system
where each makor city can choose to (or castle) dedicate itself to one of
them? So that most places are warlord Burrows, and make normal units. Where
one or two can be Pestilen cities that can make normal and plague, then one
for skyre etc.. and you choose and buy stuff for them. Like a guild in MTW2.
I realise this may be really complex and you may want the basics done before
all this complicated stuff, so fine. :)

These clans are ruled over by the council of 13. Known as the "Thirteen
Lords of Decay". Now in reality there are only 12 of them. 11 from major
clans, so one from pestilens, eshin etc. then loads of normal warlord clans.
The main Grey seer. And it is "symbolically" finished by the horned rat
himself, the 13th member. I think this seat is probably left empty, maybe a
grey seer interprets the horned rats ideas. :-P. It might be of interest to
note, that it says the Grey seers and the council can declare a "sacred" war
on a city or a skaven burrow... like a crusade. :-)

Hmm titles and such. Im guessing you mean like "Good commander" but for
skaven? Well I can suggest some ones lol.

Packmaster - Morale bonus to Moulder troops / % decrease cost to Moulder
beasts.
Eshin Adept - % decrease costs on Agents
Skyre Engineer (retinue) - Morale bonus or discount to skyre troops.
Plague Priest (retinue) - decrease to population growth, but +5 to
General hitpoints, and strength bonus too?, decrease chance of children
maybe?
Grey Seer advisor (retinue) - increase public order, +1 command. +1
managment.
Warpstone armour - (retinue/item) + to health.
Warpstone blade (retinue) + to attack
Favour of the Horned Rat - +1 command, increase chance of children,
hitpoints?
Favour of the council of 13 - " " "
Emnity of Council - (maybe mission based like papacy?) Bad stuff, low
public order, etc..
StormVermin guard (retinue) - personal safety increase.

All i can think of at the moment.

As for agents. In the book "Skaven Slayer" by umm.. forget author name.
But anyway. The skaven Greey seer Thanqual has dealings with humans
directly, and says that many do so, to worm their way into society. Often
draped in robes and such. Some rulers see the need to ally with them, for
the good of their people. So Skaven could use diplomats that way. But they
would look like cowled rats lol. This is all I can think of for you at the
moment, there is little on extreme figures, like Snitch and other high grey
seers... Also the doom wheel doesnt exist anymore. :-P, i think someone
mentioned that somewhere.

//finish

The Sacred War sounds interesting, but I dare not touch the Crusades topic again. His ideas for traits, retinues, magic weapons and items all sound good to me.

Casuir
05-15-2007, 14:57
Skaven clans regularly hire their troops out to other clans so I dont think limiting them to one city is good, their settlements are pretty spread out anyways. They are connected by the under-empire which we cant reproduce ingame.

The crusade thing sorta matchs how the game works but we'd need to sort out how we're going to handle religion first. Priests primary function is to spread religion, callng jihad/crusades are a secondary ability. Besides it looks like an intra-skaven crusade, not sure how we'd handle that with one skaven faction.

Kesxex
05-19-2007, 14:51
Not sure how feasible it is to use guilds to represent the various clans but it struck me as an idea.

In essence the building of a guild in one town stops other guilds to be build there as well. This could be used to allow particular factions to be represented.
It should be possible to restrict the recruitment of specific units to specific buildings (like the Merchant Cavalry in M2TW).
So in effect an Assassin's Guild for Skaven allows them to recruit Gutter Runners. Assassins are always present but the best and efficient ones are of Clan Eshin, this is represented by the bonus recruited assassins gain when built in a town that has an Assassin's Guild.

In a similar way an Alchemist Guild will allow the recruitment of Warpflame Throwers and maybe Jezzails and Ratling Guns.

The same theme could be applied to all other factions just that the recruitment is applied to other buildings.
The biggest problem I see is that it requires more buildings (more like a subset for each faction) to restrict availability of certain units.

As for Skaven family integrity I suggest you use HRE dynamics as its basic. In effect as long as one warlord exists he is the defacto leader. As often happens in M2TW generals are promoted to the faction itself so the pool of possible leaders is nearly endless.

Jargon
05-23-2007, 11:16
Kesxex, the Guild buildings could even have a second purpose besides giving missions. According to the Heraldry modification over at TW Center, buildings, provinces and titles can all be linked together.


http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=84462
PRIVY COUNCIL
Each faction have its own privy council, the symbol of the charge is the same
(shown in retinues) but the color and the name varies for every faction.
This charges are transferrable to a character to another, but there are only
one of the same type at a time, so cannot happen that you see 2 army general, or two first councillor. Like provincial titles they return available when the owner die.

In general they are six, and they are:

Faction Leader : Obviously titles given to the current faction leader

Army Councillor : Given to a general (not faction leader) that remain in a castle
without moving for 2 or more turns and the castle have a "garrison_quarters"

First Councillor: Given to a general (not faction leader) that remain in a city
without moving for 2 or more turns and the city have a "city hall"

Treasure Concllr: Given to a general (not faction leader) that remain in a city
without moving for 2 or more turns and the city have a "fairground"

Security Concllr: Given to a general (not faction leader) that remain in a city
without moving for 2 or more turns and the city have a "tavern"

Kingdom Concllor: Given to a general (not faction leader) that remain in a city
without moving for 2 or more turns and the city have reached
and build the "farms+1"

Each of these titles give the general various bonuses, depending on the role.
A Councillor can even got a provincial title

Now imagine instead of a Privy Council you have Lords of Decay. So Army Councilor, First Councilor, Security Councilor etc. become members of the Council of 13, with titles like Seerlord, Nightlord, Plaguelord, Lord Warlock, Grey lord etc.

Notice that each Privy title is granted by a type of building? So the four clan titles could be linked to special clan buildings, such as the four guild buildings you described.

Lets say you have an Eshin Assassin Hole guild building in a city. Lord Sneek, the Skaven general who starts the game with the title of Nightlord, eventually dies, and the Nightlord title becomes available. You move an untitled general to the city witht he Eshin building, and after three turns he gains the title Nightlord. Bonuses for him would be decreased cost for training agents, ambushing, night fighting, and maybe increased personal security. The benefits of being a Lord of Decay.

Dogman55
05-24-2007, 20:28
I was wondering about tying the heraldy mod's layout with this as well. If you guys will be implementing, that'll just make it more awesome!

DaCrAzYmOfO
05-30-2007, 19:42
I know this isn't doable with MTW2 engine, but having Screaming Bells on a battlefield would have been great :yes:

As for the Warplock Jezzails, how do you plan to make them ? Have them working as regular handgunners ?


Screaming bells= The Holy Cross unit; a big cross on a cart with a retinue of armoured sergeant spearmen.

Gives morale boost....Idk if it matters if you playing against muslim or orthodox faction, which would eventually tie in to religion, which is already a jumpy topic on this mod.

Awesome mod btw, I was waiting for a long time to see someone put this one out, especially cause of The Holy Roman Empire already provides ALOT of units for The Empire...which just have to be recolored...:sweatdrop:

But thats not for me to comment on :beam:

Either way awesome work and hopefully I can play this soon! har har warhammer MOC...thank sigmar I didnt buy you ;P

Taranaich
05-31-2007, 13:25
Surely Venice & Milan's Carroccio standard would be more appropriate for the Screaming Bell? Considering it has a bell and all...

DrZoidberg
05-31-2007, 13:33
Surely Venice & Milan's Carroccio standard would be more appropriate for the Screaming Bell? Considering it has a bell and all...

Just so you know. I lobied pretty hard for just this solution at the beginning of making this mod. But that said, it's a funky unit and not really all that core, and if I remember correctly Bwian moved it off the list for which units will be included in the first release. I totally understand and agree. Step one should be to have anything playable, later we can do the wierd units.

It's not just a bell, it's a bell with a grey seer at the top. So it'll need some work more than just a simple reskinning.

Bwian
05-31-2007, 14:58
And also ... for those who don't actually have to make these things work ... we do not have a completely reliable way of changing EVERY model. GOM's tool only works on human skeletons.

KE has made a tool that does horse sand siege weapons .... which I have not had success adding new models from scratch with...

And ultimately, the odd-ball stuff like this is waiting on KE and GOM finalising their toolsets and expanding them to cover more diverse skeletons and options. There is no point in expending the considerable effort needed to make the meshes and textures until we know there is a reliable process for getting them in game. Right noiw, I would rather focus on what we CAN do and make the vast bulk of achievable units that we need to make a playable game. After all.... this is not something that will see as much in game use as the average troops will ...so we build the units first that will get the most use. Then we fill in the gaps with the exotics as add-on releases and patches.

Taranaich
06-01-2007, 21:55
It wasn't so much a campaign for the Screaming Bell to be included, just an observation that we have a bell tower in the game, though for the reasons stated I certainly understand why it's not on the current to-do list.

dancingthemantaray
06-06-2007, 17:51
Hey, what about rat swarms?

Eufarius
06-06-2007, 21:11
Hey Bwian do you have any screens of the Skaven?:juggle2:

Bwian
06-07-2007, 06:47
Not yet ...I am working on teh Greenskins at the moment, along with the Dwarves.

Skaven are next on the list :2thumbsup:

Eufarius
06-08-2007, 04:45
oh cool hey post some teh greenskins :yes:

Blood Claw
06-08-2007, 05:33
Ya, I can't wait to see some orcs or goblins or wolf riders. Oh geez, this is going to be awesome. :yes:

Bwian
06-08-2007, 17:17
As everyone knows, 'teh greenskins' are ten times more vicious due to their innate inability to type accurately. Apparantly they have overly large fingers :clown:

Eufarius
06-09-2007, 05:43
thanks mate :clown:

Phats
07-09-2007, 14:52
Dr Zoidberg, I understand the heritage problem you are talking about, and was thinking of the possibilites today. It will be a problem for a lot of factions that dont give birth normally or have normal family lines, like Chaos and Tomb Kings, and so i'm sure a more neutral message will take the place of "Your New Son is Born." Your idea of 'political affiliation' sounds appropriate.

If the faction doesnt have natural succession through family you could just make them infertile to remove this aspect and then make use of repackaged "man of the hour" and "adoption" type triggers to recruit generals/heros more appropriately?

weeman
07-21-2007, 21:38
I don't know if you've already discounted this, and i couldn't see it earlier in the thread.

Perhaps adapting the college of cardinals & the papacy to represent the council of 13?

Bwian
07-22-2007, 12:36
#unfortunately, the behaviour and influence of the Papacy is too great, and too hardcoded to really be usable. IT would interfere too much with the game and give Skavens the wrong sort of power.

There would have to be no other Christian factions at all, or you could end up with Orcs and High Elves sitting on the Skaven council....

essi2
07-22-2007, 14:00
lol that wouldn't be very nice at all:laugh4:

weeman
07-26-2007, 18:38
Sorry, dont think i was clear. I meant just taking the papacy model and applying it only to the skaven, although not sure if possible?

Horned One at the head issuing missions etc. anyway, just an idea :)

Bwian
07-28-2007, 14:52
The Papacy thing is too hardcoded to be useful here. It only exists in one form, an that's too entrenched. You can't even use it as an outline I am afraid.

Munchkin
08-29-2007, 10:09
Just liked to add a unit to possibly be added...

Ratswarms.
I saw your beautiful work on the Tomb Swarms so it should be easy to replace the insects with slightly bigger rats. I think..? :)

They are known as "Tar pit" units.
Their main job is to engage and hold elite units in place while you try to do away with the rest of your enemys army.
These rats don't really do any significant amount of damage, but are unbreakable as in they'll fight to the rast man umm... rat.

El-Wrongo
09-06-2007, 11:40
I must say that I personally think that having all of Skavendom in one faction is a Idea I don't like, it would end up being a poor presentation of Skaven. I would think that it would be better to have a relative obscure Skaven clan. Let me outline my idea of Skaven:

Faction Leader: Warlord
Faction Hair: Lord
Ancillary characters: Grey Seer (+1 command +1 spotting distance -5 chance to assassinate character -5% cost of recruiting units), Warplock Engineer (+1 command during sieges +30 siege construction points -10% cost of recruiting siege equipment), Plague Priest (+1 piety +3 dread), Assassin (-15% chance to assassinate character -10% cost of recruiting Spy's and Assassins +3 Spotting distance), Trustworthy Bodyguard (+1 hit points -10% chance to assassinate character), Untrustworthy Bodyguard (+25% chance to assassinate character),

Units:

Tiny Burrow: Clanrat Slaves
Burrow: Clanrat Slaves, Clanrats
Large Burrow: Clanrat Slaves, Clanrats, Storm Vermin
Tunnel Network: Clanrat Slaves, Clanrats +1, Storm Vermin, Generals Bodyguard
Huge Tunnel Network: Clanrat Slaves, Clanrats +2, Storm Vermin +1, Generals Bodyguard,

Beast Cages: Rat Swarms
Small Laboratory: Rat Swarms, Giant Rats
Mortuary: Rat Swarms, Giant Rats, Rat Ogres

Eshin Den 1: Spy
Eshin Den 2: Spy, Assassin, Night Runners
Eshin Den 3: Spy, Assassin, Night Runners, Gutter Runners

Workshop: Poisoned Wind Globadiers
Skyre Laboratory: Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Warplock Jezzails
Skyre Siege Works: Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Warplock Jezzails, Warp Lightning Cannon

Shrine of the Horned Rat: Plague Priest,
Altar of the Horned Rat: Plague Priest,
Church of the Horned Rat: Plague Priest,
Cathedral of the Horned Rat: Plague Priest, Plague Monks

Anyways, this is how I vision Skaven would be best represented.

Enthes
09-06-2007, 23:08
personally i dont really see how you can do Skaven very easily, as alot of there "under empire" is below empire cities and this would be imposable to do on a campaign map. Although you could have them as rebel armies for the empire and have the main Skaven faction based somewhere else.

aeow
09-08-2007, 18:51
Well although the skaven all live in the under empire most of the citys are based under swamps and the like. So just make the skaven towns all swampy and the buildings in ruins.

lanky316
10-20-2007, 17:53
I've been thinking about the clan structure... How are we going to show the strongholds of the various clans? I know on MTW you could give + valour in certain regions for certain units but isn't that impossible in the current game? I guess you could start the regions under a certain set-up but once the game progresses how will we show the difference between Pestilence in the West and Eshin in the East?

Come to think of it... I'm sure the distance the empire covers will probably lead to the civil war type scenarios anyway...

Sarathos
10-23-2007, 02:23
Or just use the various clan banners....Skaven dont generally have different structures but they are seperated by Warloads and symbols

Bwian
10-23-2007, 18:57
I was considering an approach similar to the 'temple' approach in RTW. IF you have a 'clan Eshin' building in a settlement it allows you to build Eshin units. It would also prevent building of a Skyre or Pestilens building. Conditionals would mean that the buildings could not co-exist.

Skyre building allows building of Skyre units and so on. If you don;t have ANY of those, all you get is basic Clanrat units. That way, each town could 'specialise' in a particular sort of unit.

the other option is to use the town/castle thing....but that only gives 2 options.

lanky316
10-23-2007, 19:19
Actually... I sort of had that idea this morning thinking about this at work (Our accountants son is in for the holidays and we were talking during my lunch break, I'm not that obsessed!) and that was the kind of thing I thought of. The way the families all had unique temples and bonuses. Is there a trigger for only one type per city? THough you'd think "Old 'Blighty" (C)Lankywords 2007 would have access to the lot. Oh well, it's definately a way I'd work it I think. Town and castle is too restrictive in it's way.

Sarathos
10-23-2007, 23:38
Well you could keep to the clan specialty, such as Clan Eshin could only produce assassins. Or let them have assassins as special units. So all clans can build the same units in their various structures but specialize in their clan fields.

Silly Knicket
10-23-2007, 23:45
I was considering an approach similar to the 'temple' approach in RTW. IF you have a 'clan Eshin' building in a settlement it allows you to build Eshin units. It would also prevent building of a Skyre or Pestilens building. Conditionals would mean that the buildings could not co-exist.

Skyre building allows building of Skyre units and so on. If you don;t have ANY of those, all you get is basic Clanrat units. That way, each town could 'specialise' in a particular sort of unit.

the other option is to use the town/castle thing....but that only gives 2 options.

I think this will work out great. It adds to the immersion aswell, having a different clan in each town.

Sarathos
10-28-2007, 04:57
So is anything happening here....?

DrZoidberg
10-28-2007, 10:38
So is anything happening here....?

Considering that Bwian is just starting to make the units now...then...yeah. Plenty is happening right now. But maybe you were talking about metaphysical ramblings on forums concerning the Skaven place in the cosmic reality of fantasy life? Or something.

Bwian
10-28-2007, 10:53
So is anything happening here....?
Nah...I just sit around on my backside doing nothing all day, waiting for the ungrateful to go away.

Perhaps you would like to make the scratch built skeleton, complete animation set to give moving tails and then make the skin and mesh. Shouldn't take you more than a few minutes......

A Norseman
10-28-2007, 11:36
Nah...I just sit around on my backside doing nothing all day, waiting for the ungrateful to go away.

Perhaps you would like to make the scratch built skeleton, complete animation set to give moving tails and then make the skin and mesh. Shouldn't take you more than a few minutes......

Keep up the good work!:2thumbsup:

Moving tails will be in then?

Bwian
10-28-2007, 13:50
Got the skeleton built, and am now struggling with the MS3D animation keyframer, which is nowher near as user friendly as a Max one :furious3:

Enthes
10-28-2007, 17:28
moving tails :smash:

whats MS3D?

Alletun
10-28-2007, 19:12
Got the skeleton built, and am now struggling with the MS3D animation keyframer, which is nowher near as user friendly as a Max one :furious3:

Bwain, you can get animations from ms3d into 3dsmax. I've written how to in my guide. it's not a complete perfect solution and it's not very tested through but it might be worth a shot.
I think it's on page 60 or something.
remember to take "sequence" instead of "reference".,


@enthes: ms3d = MilkShape3D

Taranaich
10-28-2007, 19:28
You'd think moving tails would just be superficial prettiness, but it adds tremendously to the life and personality of a character, I'm glad you're doing this for the Skaven!

Will you use this set for the Lizardmen too, to save skeleton/animation space?

Bwian
10-28-2007, 21:12
Thanks Alletun.... I'll give it another read. Currently KE is writing a script to get both animations and MS3D files imported into Max to make life a lot easier for all concerned. ANYTHING that allows me to do animation work in Max rather than MS3D would be great.... I just don't get on with the MS3D keyframer!

Taranaich ... yes...I plan to re-use the skeleton for Lizardmen so their tails move too.

Sarathos
10-30-2007, 02:58
Woah guys settle down. All I meant was there was not talk, I wasn't calling anyone lazy or not doing anything. I just want a chat....

Bwian
10-30-2007, 09:39
Sarathos, chat is fine .... but do read your post before hitting 'submit'. Something more like 'How's progress' ... or 'got any screenshots for us' ... that sort of thing. Sounds a lot more positive than your comment did. Which really does sound like a comment regarding lack of progress.

Still..we ARE making progress in some areas, and less progress in others. There is really no precedent for some of hte things we are doing, and the level of knowledge and the niumber of mod-teams actually making new skeletons and animations is pretty small. This means we hit more technical hold-ups than most. If all we had to do was make new models and juggle the stats, we would be a lot further along .... but the mod would be a hole lot poorer for it!

The Dwarves...for example ... were the first models being built using a wholly new skeleton with the animations grafted back on. They served as a testbed for KE's tools and thrashed out the process.

We are also working to get chariots in game, and that WILL happen thanks to mare hard work and research, coupled to the technical support of KE and GOM. Again...no-one else has tried this, and we found a whole load of new problems and issues that were hidden in the stock game. The stock horse animations were based on a non-zeroed skeleton...which should not have happened...but has slipped past the CA devs! That's how cutting edge we are!

KE has made a tool that allows extra bones to be made...and we are using that. I don;t hink there are many mod teams planning to use these features... but we are.

Making the Skaven faction will bring together ALL these features and extra's and will be a major factor in making this mod do the things we only dreamt of in RTW. It WILL be worth the waiting!

Sarathos
10-30-2007, 11:21
So guys, hows progress? Got any screenshots of the great work you guys are doing?

Phats
10-30-2007, 12:09
Gratuitous Eye Candy Thread (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=84255)

Eye Candy continues (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=86820)

Latest Eye Candy Shots (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=92575)

Yeah! 2000 Post Landmark (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93929)

As for skaven progress I think that is clear from the rest of this thread, Bwain is making custom skeltons and animations for the skaven models so that they can have moving tails.

Bwian
10-30-2007, 18:12
Initial Skaven model is done, but I am not happy with a few details. I built the head using a rat head as a template, and I made the eye too big! I need to re-scale that, and work on the shaping of the shoulder/upper back area. It needs to be more sloping.

I have built the rough skeleton, but will need to tweak that as well to fit the planned changes to the mesh.

Skin is just a placeholder right now.

Animation work has begun ... in order to get a working tail. I can easily use KE's tools to adjust the animations to fit the new animations, so I am not worried.

Hope to have some pictures of the Rodents by the weekend.

I would have got more done, but we had some major breakthroughs in the chariot department... and I made some Khorne Knights ...

Enthes
10-30-2007, 18:58
ahh milkshake never used it myself.

are u doing all different models for chaos knights or just different skins for each knight?

A Norseman
10-31-2007, 13:02
Love to see the progress of the unbelivable things you people are doing.. I mean.. wow.
New sige engines, swarms, Giants, skeleton horses, chariots, Skaven and more!..
Groundbraking.. absolutly.

Jonlissla
01-09-2008, 13:10
I have a question about the Skaven: will you add Poison Wind Globadiers (sp?)? You could use the Naffatun units, but is it possible to add a area attack instead of just attacking single units?

WereVrock
01-23-2008, 16:21
Clans sometimes fight with each other. I think you should make 4 skaven faction and allow them to hire clan's uniqe units as mercenary. :beam:

Enthes
01-24-2008, 02:45
4 scaven factions is a bit much i do hope however they will divide the faction with temples giving access to different clans units and blocking others.

Dreq-Kai
01-24-2008, 04:25
I agree. If you divide Skaven, then you might as well divide the Empire into city states, etcetera, etcetera.

By the way, I though I heard mention of skaven screenshots? Is that true? Or am I mistaken?

Eufarius
01-24-2008, 04:49
Not mistaken, it's not the full model with skin but it's the model without it (that made no sense) but if you browse you'll find it.

Dreq-Kai
01-24-2008, 05:00
Ah, found it. That looks pretty good... from what I can tell from a 3dS max screenshot.

Eufarius
01-24-2008, 05:09
Are sure? It looks more like milkshape.

Dreq-Kai
01-24-2008, 06:52
Well, I looked at a screen grab from 3DS Max.Perhaps we're talking about different pics?

Alletun
01-24-2008, 14:52
The only picture that have been released of the skaven is a screenshot from 3dsmax.

Eufarius
01-25-2008, 00:18
Ah. thanks Alletun and you too Dreq-Kai.

Goncalou
02-10-2008, 19:04
I know this isn't doable with MTW2 engine, but having Screaming Bells on a battlefield would have been great :yes:

As for the Warplock Jezzails, how do you plan to make them ? Have them working as regular handgunners ?

Wouldnt u be able to make the screaming bells like the giant cross in mtw2, so they inspire morale or something like that.:thinking2:

DrZoidberg
02-14-2008, 19:07
Wouldnt u be able to make the screaming bells like the giant cross in mtw2, so they inspire morale or something like that.:thinking2:

This has already been covered. Read through this thread and you'll have your answer.

Caradrayan
04-11-2008, 19:23
I'd like to suggest that keeping Skaven as one faction is the right way to go. They don't have all that many independant settlements in the beginning, so I think splitting them is just too much.

slave slingers could be included. Very, very cheap unit, lowest moral possible, does little more than take up space.

The idea to make clan buildings an exclusive temple line is great.

Santini
07-16-2008, 17:45
Ratswarms would be sick too, along with warpfire throwers and ratling guns

Having them seperate factions would realistic represent the Skaven political situation (AKA, united they could conquer the world, but they'd rather infight)
Therefore a skaven player's goal would be to first unite or conquer all skaven clans, and then set about world domination

The_Reckoning
07-22-2008, 15:38
When you're making the names list for the Skaven "family members", this might come in handy:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/skaven/name-generator/1/

Casuir
07-23-2008, 06:47
As Caradrayan pointed out skaven don't have that many settlements to begin with and the ones they do are fairly spread out so separating them into different factions would probably mean an early death. Don't like the idea of separate temples for clans, there's no problem with fielding different clans in the same army in the tabletop. Also we don't have a way to accurately represent the network of underground tunnels which connect skaven settlements, allowing them to move troops around. limiting troop types by settlement would put a skaven player at a serious disadvantage given the distances between some of their settlements.

Caradrayan
10-22-2008, 02:54
Cuiser makes a good point, but I'm so wedded to the idea of temple lines for clan troops, I will suggest a comprimise: basic clan troops like globadiers, night runners, and giant rats should be recruited generally, and 1 elite unit from each clan can be temple (clan building) specific. Rat ogres, jezzails, and censer bearers would be my suggestion for exclusive access.

Goncalou
03-10-2009, 23:31
Yeah rat ogres, they'll crush the normal ones cause rats have claws and teeth.