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econ21
05-04-2007, 18:00
This thread is for all out of character discussion of the King of the Romans PBM - a HRE M2TW game. Please post in this thread if you have any queries or are unsure where to post.


*************KOTR FAQ (UPDATED)**********************

The following paragraphs are designed to provide a simple understanding of the KOTR game and how it works. If anything in these paragraphs conflicts with one of the Game Rules, the Rule takes precedent.

Introduction

The general idea of the King of the Romans (KOTR) game is to allow a large group of players to determine the fate and development of the Holy Roman Empire in M2TW.

All players are “Electors” and will belong to one of the four Ducal Houses, Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). Eventually all players will be represented by an in-game character known as an “avatar.” This will typically be a general, but agents such as spies, priests or diplomats can be used as well upon request. It is not advisable to use an assassin as an avatar, as they have short life expectancies. If a player’s avatar gets into a battle, the player is expected to download the savegame and fight the battle.

Collectively, the Electors form the Imperial Diet. This has two functions - to elect a Chancellor and to create Edicts. The Chancellor will be the “reigning player” and control the game during his term in office. He will move all the generals, authorize any buildings from the build queues and train any units/agents. “Edicts” are laws that require the Chancellor to take specific actions. These can be very wide ranging in scope, but typically include such things as declaring war against another nation, seeking an alliance with a neutral country, or making peace with an enemy nation.

How to Join the Game

In order to join the game and get started, all you need to do is post in the current OOC thread that you would like to join and select one of the four Ducal Houses. You can then start participating in as much or as little detail as you wish. You will always be able to find the location of the relevant game threads in the second post of the Imperial Library (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383644&postcount=2).

The Ranks

KOTR attempts to mimic the feudal political system of medieval Europe. There are several ranks which each player can obtain, all of which come with their own benefit and responsibilities. If you wish to be highly involved, you can take on roles that require more work and responsibility. If you wish to simply observe and cast votes during election times, you will have to do very little. The extent of your involvement is entirely up to you.

Electors

All players, except the Emperor, are Electors, even if they hold another rank. It is the lowest rank in the game and all new players begin at this level. As an Elector, you may speak in the Imperial Diet, propose one Edict per session, vote on Edicts, and vote for Chancellor. All Electors belong to one of the Ducal Houses. You are not required to follow the orders or suggestions of your Duke, but he has the ability to bestow and remove ranks and privileges. If you have ambitions to rise to a higher rank, carefully consider whether your Duke will approve of your actions or not.

It is important to remember that you can only freely propose one personal Edict per Diet session. Choose an issue that is important to you and think very carefully about how you word it. A poorly worded or unimportant Edict can easily be ignored and forgotten. The only way you can propose more than one Edict per Diet session is through the approval of your Duke.

Electors will be provided with avatars on the basis of seniority; first come, first served. Generals are the most popular avatars and there may be a waiting period to obtain one. Agent avatars can usually be obtained quickly, but are not as complex and are not really suited for players who wish to rise to a higher rank. If you take a general as an avatar, you will be expected to fight any battles the avatar gets into, assuming he commands the army. You will have 48 hours in which to fight the battle after you are notified about it. When that time expires, the battle will be autoresolved, which could result in the death of your avatar. If you do not want to fight battles and there is a shortage of generals for avatars, please do not accept one. If you want an avatar but do not wish to fight, please consider using an agent.

Counts

Counts are prominent nobles within their Houses. The title of Count can be bestowed upon an Elector by his Duke. The role of Count is identical to that of an Elector with a general avatar, with a few exceptions.

A Count rules over one of the settlements (city or castle) in his Ducal House. The Count may, at his discretion, determine the order in which buildings are created in that settlement (build queue). The Chancellor is not required to build anything in the settlement, but if something is built, it must be in the order determined by the Count. The Count can also set the tax rate in his settlement, if it is a city. Counts gain a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. Counts can name an heir to take over their lands when they die. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar who is not already a Count.

There are two kinds of Counts: Freehold Counts and Bonded Counts. The difference is simple. Freehold Counts are the natural born sons of a Duke. They cannot be removed from control of their settlement, though the Duke can still name another as his heir if a Freehold Count displeases him. Bonded Counts are non-blood sons of a Duke, such as adoptees, sons-in-law, or anyone else who is not a natural born son. Bonded Counts can be stripped of their titles and lands at any time and for any reason by the Duke.

Dukes

Dukes are the heads of the Houses. They are figures of authority and they wield a great deal of power. There is only one Duke per House and a player can only become Duke by being the Duke’s heir at the time of his death. The role of Duke has many more powers than that of Count and Dukes gain a significant influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

The Duke rules over the capital of his House and all provinces which do not have a Count. Just like with a Count, the Duke can determine the build queue and tax rate for these settlements, but he can give orders for as many of them as he wishes. Dukes are also responsible for promoting and demoting Bonded Counts. A Duke may give any Elector with a general avatar the rank of Count, making them a Bonded Count. He may take away their lands at any time or switch their lands as he sees fit. The Duke can name an heir to take over as head of his House when he dies. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar, and it is recommended (though not necessary) that the person already be a Count.

The Duke is responsible for managing the affairs of his House and will often be dealing directly with the Chancellor and the Kaiser in high-level political discussions. Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. These can be the Duke’s own Edicts, but it is recommended that the Duke pick at least some of them from amongst the ‘extras’ his Electors want to put forward. It would be entirely appropriate for the Duke to use incentives and threats to ensure that the policies he wants get put forward. However, remember that even these extra Edict proposals must come pre-seconded by two members of his House. Don’t anger too many of your Electors or they could prevent you from using your extra Edict proposals!

Finally, the Duke controls the Household Army. The Household Army is the House’s personal military force and it is largely independent of outside control. The Duke is responsible for determining where it is garrisoned, who commands it, and what orders it is given. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Stewards

Stewards are Electors who are temporarily acting as Dukes. KOTR originally started with two Stewards, but for the most part, the title of Steward is a temporary one bestowed on a House Elector for a short time when a Duke is unavailable to fulfill his duties. In reality, this happens when a player who is a Duke is going on vacation or is otherwise going to be out-of-touch with the game for a short period of time.

Stewards have all of the powers of Dukes for the duration of their term, except that they cannot name an heir.

Emperor (Kaiser)

The Holy Roman Emperor is the supreme head of the Empire. It is a hereditary position. (Note: This is not historical, but there’s no way to change this in-game.) While the Emperor is theoretically the most powerful man in the entire Empire, in the KOTR game he plays a more subtle role. The Emperor gains an influence bonus equal to his authority during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

First, the Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet. It is his job to maintain order in the Diet and ensure that it runs smoothly. If there is a dispute about the Game Rules, the Emperor will make the final decision about the proper manner to follow the Rules.

Second, the Emperor does not belong to any of the Ducal Houses. Upon inheriting the throne, they leave their old House for good and lose any other titles (Elector, Count, Duke) that they might have. The Emperor is expected to act for the good of the Empire, rather than an individual House. While Emperors are expected to be impartial, they will certainly have strong opinions about what is best for the Empire. This may in turn result in them siding with Houses that support their decisions and working against Houses that they believe are hurting the Empire.

Third, Emperors allocate newly captured provinces to the Ducal Houses. When a province is captured, it comes under the direct control of the Emperor, who can control them in the same manner that the Dukes and the Counts can control their own lands. The Emperor may allocate any of his lands to any of the Ducal Houses. Once allocated, they cannot ever be returned to the Emperor. House provinces where are re-taken after being occupied by an enemy do not count as being “captured.”

Fourth, Emperors decide which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.

Finally, Emperors can automatically assume the position of Chancellor for the first term after they are crowned. This power is not subject to Diet vote and no one can run against them. However, the Emperor still has the limitations of Chancellor while in office, which means he can be impeached by the Diet in exceptional circumstances. Any further attempts by the Emperor to be Chancellor must go through the normal election process.

Prince (Prinz)

The Prince is a largely unimportant role, significant mainly because he is the heir to the throne and will become the next Emperor. Unlike the title of Emperor, the title of Prince is added in addition to any other titles the player holds. This gives the player a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. The Prince’s only duty is to preside over the Diet when the Emperor is absent.

There is no control over who becomes the new Prince once the current one assumes the throne. Like with the Emperor, this is a limitation imposed on us by the game itself. With luck, the role will only fall on players who seek to be active in the game. (*cross your fingers!*)

In practical terms, players must always remember that the Prince will inherit the throne, thus gaining power over the Houses through his ability to allocate newly conquered provinces. If you make an enemy of the Prince, your House might find itself smaller than the others when he becomes Emperor.

Chancellor

The position of Chancellor is without a doubt the most important and powerful one in KOTR. In game terms, the Chancellor is the person who actually plays the M2TW game. Unlike the other positions, you shouldn’t think of the Chancellor in the sense of what he can do, but rather what he cannot do. He is essentially playing the single player M2TW campaign with the following restrictions:

The Chancellor must obey the Game Rules and Edicts that have been passed by the Diet. Failure to do so can lead to impeachment by the Diet.

The Chancellor decides whether buildings are to be constructed in all settlements. If a settlement has a build queue from a Count, Duke, or Emperor, then he must build the items on that list in the order listed. However, he does not have to build anything at all if he does not want to, he only has to follow the build queue if he does decide to build something. If a settlement has no build queue for whatever reason, the Chancellor can build whatever he likes.

The Chancellor moves the armies and hands out saved games to be played by the appropriate generals. He can fight battles that his avatar is commanding whenever he wants without pause, but must give other players 48 hours to fight their battles. If a player exceeds the time limit or if the battle is lead by a Captain or a general that is not represented by a player, the battle must be autoresolved. The only exception to the Chancellor’s control over the armies are the Household Armies. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Essentially everything else is free game. If there isn’t a Rule or Edict about it, the Chancellor can do whatever he wants. The Chancellor’s term last for 10 game turns (20 game years), but he can run for re-election if he wishes. In recognition for his contributions, the Chancellor gets a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor, even after he leaves office.


***************KOTR GAME RULES**************

Game settings

*MT2TW with the 1.2 patch
*Hard campaigns, very hard battles.
*Large unit size.
*Battle timer on. Show CPU Moves, Manage all Settlements
Standard victory conditions (45 provinces, including Rome).

The only mod we will use initially consists of the trait and ancillary files created by factionheir, available to download at:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix124.rar

The readme is in the spoiler tags.


KOTRfixREADME.txt
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START OF README
-
Version 1.24 (22-05-2007)


This package contains 2 folders and 6 files, one of which is the readme you are currently reading.
I have included folders as this will make it easier for you to figure where a file is to go and prevent errors.
As you can see, one folder is named "data" and another one inside this data folder is labelled "text"
To install the fixes, simply extract/move the data folder directly from the package into your root medieval directory.
This means that after doing so, you should find following files in your medieval/data folder:
export_descr_character_traits.txt
export_descr_ancillaries.txt
export_descr_vnvs_enums.txt

And a folder in your data folder named "text"
Inside that folder, you should find:
export_ancillaries.txt.string.bin
export_VnVs.txt.strings.bin


You do not need to extract the readme, as this is purely informational for this installation only.

In short (for the impatient and to quick check):

-Extract data folder directly into medieval game directory.
-Make sure your medieval directory now has a data folder (already present before extracting) and a text folder within (usually not present before)
-Make sure the following files are found inside the data folder:
export_descr_character_traits.txt
export_descr_ancillaries.txt
export_descr_vnvs_enums.txt
-Make sure the following files are found inside the text folder:
export_ancillaries.txt.string.bin
export_VnVs.txt.strings.bin


Now to apply those fixes, you will need to run your medieval game exe using a shortcut or a bat file.
The target of said file should read similar to this:

D:\Medieval\medieval2.exe --io.file_first

Where "D:\Medieval\" varies depending on your installation but medieval2.exe --io.file_first should be constant.

If you encounter any issues with my fixes, please let me know via any means you feel necessary and I will investigate.
As per current version, there are no errors showing up in the medieval error log that are from these fixes.

Also note that those fixes work retroactively in any savegame and at the same time also allow a savegame to continue working without the fixes installed.
As such, it is perfectly safe to use and will not necessitate its continued usage once a game is started.
However as per Charter Amendment 6.2 for the KOTR PBM, this fix is to be used by the chancellor currently running the game.

I hope you enjoy the fixes and if you have problems or suggestions, please let me know.

FactionHeir

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END OF README
-




At a later stage, we may use a mod to give the Forlorn Hope 2 hitpoints.

To increase the difficulty, the AI will periodically be given money via the consol. Details in the spoil.

I plan to give 100000 gold to the AI each Diet (ie every 10 turns). The command for this is:

add_money hungary, 100000

The factions which will benefit initially are:

england
france
spain
venice
sicily
milan
scotland
byzantium
russia
moors
turks
egypt
denmark
portugal
poland
hungary

The Mongols, Timurids and Aztecs may be included at a later stage.



Hard restrictions on play: * only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.

How to play - detailed rules


1. The role of players.

1.1 Each player will roleplay an “elector” of the HRE. They must choose one of four noble houses to belong to. Players are born into a noble House. It is in their blood and cannot be changed. It is determined by which of the four lines on the family tree their avatar falls under (except for the three starter Generals, for whom it is determined by their initial geography). [Note - if avatars spawn disproportionately in certain Houses, Electors of one House may be offered an avatar of another, but then they effectively role-play a new character.]
1.2 Over time, all players will be assigned an avatar (typically a general) by econ21 to represent them. They should roleplay their traits.
1.3 Players whose avatars lead in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved.
1.4 Players whose avatars are Counts are entitled to set the taxes and build queue of that settlement. If anything is built in the settlement, it must be the first item on the build queue.
1.5 Each elector will periodically vote to elect a Chancellor (reigning player) of the HRE and on edicts to direct him.
1.6 Players are encouraged to stand for the post of Chancellor.
1.7 Players are encouraged to write in-character stories in the stories thread; to discuss matters of state in the Imperial Diet deliberations thread; to write-up battle reports; to PM each other in character for role-playing etc. [Note: when posting screenshots, we could keep them full size but put them under spoiler tags.]


2. The role of the Chancellor.

2.1 The Chancellor is much like the player of a solo M2TW campaign - he moves all the units and agents on the map; he decides all the buildings and which units/agents to be trained.

2.2 However, he delegates battles to the player whose general leads the HRE force. And he follows the build queues and tax policies of players with governors.

2.3 He also must obey Imperial edicts and the constitution (these rules) or face political consequences.

2.4 The Chancellor is elected every 10 turns. Incumbent Chancellors can run for re-election if they wish.

2.5 The Chancellor must appoint army commanders. He must maintain a list of who has what post and notify players if they are appointed or dismissed from a role.

2.6 Battles are only fought manually when commanded by a player controlled general who is an army commander. They are autoresolved in all other cases (e.g. captain-led armies).

3. The role of the Imperial Diet

3.1. The Imperial Diet will meet in session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each session lasts 3 days of real time.

3.2. At each session, nobles can propose edicts. These require two seconders to be put to the vote. Edicts are laws that direct what the Chancellor should do.

Charter Ammendment 5.2: Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose THREE House edicts per Diet provided that they have previously securing the backing of two other members of their House.

3.3. Any declaration of war must be authorised by an Imperial edict. The Chancellor or any Duke is empowered to declare war on a non-allied army entering its lands.

*3.4. The rules of the game can be changed by a Noble Charter Amendments (2/3 majority required) except those marked with a *.

3.5. Tied edicts fail. If contradictory edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority.

3.6. Edicts can only last for 10 turns.

3.7. Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

*3.8. The Chancellor can be impeached and removed from office by a 2/3 majority of the Imperial Diet.

3.9. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final. The Prince can preside in the absence of the Emperor. The Emperor can call an emergency session of the Imperial Diet - freeze the game - at will.

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +5 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 3 points):
Duke: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.

Charter Amendment 6.7: Any decision that would lead to the excommunication of the Reich has to be authorized by a Diet vote, requiring a 2/3 majority. In the event of a conflict, this Amendment supercedes Rule 3.3 and Charter Amendment 5.1.


4. The role of the four houses - Dukes and Counts

4.1 There will be four houses representing the four main branches of the family tree: Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). At the start of the game, Prince Henry is Duke of Swabia and Leopold is Duke of Austria. The Dukes of Franconia and Bavaria have not yet been spawned (they will be the two males who take positions under the Emperor in the family tree).

4.2 Bavaria and Franconia have no Duke yet, so there are Stewards to act in their place until them. Until there is a Duke, they receive the +2 influence of a Duke.

Charter Amendment 3.1: Stewards may bestow the rank of Count on nobles of their House. This Amendment does not give Stewards any other Ducal power, it does not give Stewards additional Influence, nor does it allow Stewards to be Counts themselves.

The Stewards themselves are not Counts. Like Otto in Innsbruck, they are just soldiers, self-made men of lesser station [think Denethor in Lord of the Rings]. They could be rewarded by being made a Count by their Duke when he spawns, though. And they could marry into the Royal line, potentially becoming the Duke themselves.

4.3 The Emperor controls the initial allocation of settlements (e.g. upon conquest). At the start of the game, we have:

Frankfurt - capital of Franconia, home of the Duke (TBC)
Stafen - capital of Swabia, home of the Duke (Prince Henry)
Nuremburg - capital of Bavaria, home of the Duke (TBC)
Innsbruck - second city of Bavaria
Vienna - capital of Austria, home of the Duke (Leopold)
Bologna - is not assigned to any house

4.4 Dukes can then grant a settlement to a player, making him Count of that settlement. The settlements remain nominally within the relevant Duchy. There are no Counts at the start of the game. Capitals of a House need no Counts and cannot be given to them - they belong to the Duke (or his Steward). The Emperor could allocate Bologna to a House at any time, but after that, it will permanently belong to that House. There is an expectation that Franconia will extend north, Swabia west, Bavaria south and Austria east but this should not be followed too rigidly - e.g. the Emperor does not have to give Bologna to Bavaria.

[Note: It is expected that settlements will not be gifted lightly by the Emperor and by Dukes/Stewards - they should be regarded as precious rewards. There is no particular value to settlements in themselves, however. Avatars will be assigned according to the family tree, so more settlements does not mean more family members in a House - nor does it raise influence (beyond the one-off +1 for being a Count). A player cannot be the Count of more than one settlement. Dukes can have more than one settlement not dispersed to counts (and given the ratio of settlements to generals in a game, this is inevitable), but this provides no particular benefits.]

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

4.6 Counts who are not the natural sons of a Duke (e.g. adoptees and sons in law) may be lose their titles at the whim of the Duke. They are referred to as bonded Counts and are expected to act according to the wishes of their Duke. Natural sons of a Duke may not lose their settlements - they are referred to as freehold Counts.

4.7 Dukes and Counts should name a successor, who will take over their titles and settlements when they die. If no successor is named, the oldest natural son inherits, (if none, oldest adopted son; if none again, then the oldest son-in-law).

4.8 Dukes are expected to guide their families for the good for their Duchies. Members of a house do not have to follow their Dukes in terms of politics. However, the Duke can make players a Count by giving them a settlement (granting them +1 influence). Only the Duke of your House (not another Duke) can make you a Count. Houses will not be the only division in the Diet - chivalry, piety, strategy and other factors may also divide players.

Charter Amendment 6.3: Dukes may bestow the title of Count on Electors without avatars.


5 The role of the Emperor and Prince

5.1 The Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet as in 3.9. He is the "chairman" of the HRE, as opposed to the Chancellor who is the "chief executive". He will keep order in the Diet and try to make things run smoothly.

5.2 Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.

5.3 The Emperor can allocate settlements to one of the Four Houses.

5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes.

5.5 The Prince succeeds the Emperor and can deputise in his absence.

5.6 Emperors do not belong to factions - if crowned, they leave their House and - if Duke - are replaced by their chosen successor. They are expected to act for the good of the Empire and be impartial, above petty regional politics.

5.7 The Emperor decides which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.


6. Armies and Battles

Rules 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 have been removed.

6.4 For field armies of seven or more units (including the general), the Chancellor must appoint an “army commander”. The army commander must be a “knight”. Army commanders are appointed for the duration of the Imperial Diet session (10 turn intervals). The post is expected to be rotating. Army commanders can decide what to do with prisoners after battle. They can be dismissed by Chancellors, but must be informed of this.

6.5 Avatars who take part in battles may be promoted to “knights” by the army commander. Typically, this will involve the avatar’s bodyguard fighting honourably in a battle. The Emperor, Prince and four Dukes begin the game knighted.

6.6 The title of Field Marshall shall be given to the commanders of the Household Armies for the duration of their command.
Charter Amendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed.

Charter Amendment 5.1: Each Duchy shall have a Household Army with which to defend its territories. The Household Army will be governed by the following clauses:

1) The Household Army may not be removed from the House’s provinces without the permission of the Duke.
2) The Duke will determine where the Household Army is to be garrisoned. This location can be changed at any time, so long as the Duke informs the Chancellor of the move. The Chancellor will not remove the Household Army from the garrison without the Duke’s permission, except as required to fulfill Clause 4.
3) The Duke will determine who commands the Household Army.
4) At the beginning of each Diet session the Duke may assign general orders to the Household Army, which are to be carried out by the Chancellor. Between Diet sessions, any additional orders submitted by Dukes are to be implemented only at the Chancellor's discretion. The Duke may select one of the following Orders: (1) attack any rebel force in House territory, (2) attack any hostile force in House territory, including other factions, (3) attack any foreign or rebel army in House territory, including neutral (but not allied or crusading) factions, (4) temporary assignment to another House, (5) assignment to offensive duties. If Order (4) is chosen, the Duke may determine the time limit of the temporary assignment and the commanding general, but all other decisions are made by the Duke of the receiving house. When the time limit expires, the Household Army must be immediately returned to House lands, no matter what other circumstances occur, unless the Duke agrees otherwise. If Order (5) is chosen, the Duke may specify an enemy settlement or army as the objective and the commanding general. The settlement or army must be in a province that borders the House and the Reich must already be at war with the target. All other decisions are made by the Chancellor. The Duke may recall the Household Army from offensive duties at any time and for any reason.
5) The Household Army will consist of a minimum of 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. The Household Army will ideally consist of 4 infantry regiments, 3 ranged regiments, and 2 cavalry regiments. For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments. All regiments must be professional soldiers, not militia.
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
7) The Chancellor will attempt to maintain the Household Armies at full strength, with the highest quality regiments available.
8) In emergencies, the Chancellor may detach any units in excess of the minimum strength level for use elsewhere. The Chancellor may not reduce a Household Army below the minimum strength level without the permission of the Duke.
9) If the Imperial Treasury cannot support all Household Armies at minimum strength, the Chancellor must consult with the Dukes and receive their permission to reduce the Household Armies in such a way as to eliminate the deficit.
10) The Imperial Diet may temporarily remove any or all of these rules by a simple majority vote. The temporary period will last no longer than 10 turns.

7. Crusades and missions.

7.1 The Chancellor must endeavour to follow missions from the Pope and Council of Nobles, unless exempted by the Diet. Missions from guilds and foreign powers are optional.

7.2 Crusades must be authorised by the Diet, unless announced by another faction.

7.3 When a crusade is called, the Chancellor must ask all generals if they wish to join. He must include at least three volunteers who reply within 48 hours. If there are more than three, he must pick the three most pious. However, he can decline a volunteer if that would usurp his pick of army commander. If the AI calls a crusade, the Chancellor can choose not to follow it, even if generals wish to join - but he must still notify them immediately of the call and get their view on whether they would like to join (were he to follow the call).

8. Historical armies

Only historical armies can fight battles (ahistorical stacks can be used for transport).

No more than half an army can be mercenary. Crusader mercenaries (crusader sergeants, crusader knights, pilgrims, fanatics) can count as natives.

Revised maxima for each unit type by number of units in stack

3^Type|1-5|6-10|11-15|16+
7^Generals|2|2|2|2
7^Knights|2|4|6|8
7^Cavalry|2|4|6|8
7^Missile inf|2|3|4|6
7^Elite inf|2|3|4|6
7^Other foot|Any|Any|Any|Any
7^Artillery|1|2|3|4


Crusades are exempt from restrictions on the number of generals.

Unit type definitions:
- Knights: Dismtd Feudal knights; Dismtd Imperial knights; Dismtd Gothic knights; Mailed knights; Feudal knights; Imperial knights; Teutonic knights; General’s bodyguard; Gothic knights; plus any mercenary knights or equivalent heavy cavalry.
- Cavalry: Any mounted knights plus non-knightly cavalry (Mounted crossbowmen ; Reiters; Merchant cavalry; Mounted sergeants, Turcomans etc)
-Foot missiles: Peasant archers; Peasant crossbowmen; Crossbow militia; Pavisse crossbowmen; Arquebusiers; Handgunners etc
-Elite infantry: Zweihander; Forlorn Hope; Landsknechts; dismounted knights and equivalent mercs - e.g. Galllowglass
-Other foot: Peasants; Town militia; Halberd militia; Spear militia; Sergeant spearmen; Armoured spearmen; Crusader sergeants; Pike militia

Old rules in spoil.

The following rules apply for field armies of 15+ or more units.

Generals - max 2 units
Knights - cavalry or foot, max 8 units inc. generals

Total cavalry - maximum 8 units, inc mounted knights and generals

Artillery - maximum 2 units (5 in a siege - if caught in a field battle immediately withdraw excess of over two)
Foot missiles - maximum 6 units including artillery

Total elite heavy infantry - max 6

Other spears & feudal foot - unlimited

For armies of size 7-14, the above limits are halved.


Here's the old german titles of nobility and our equivalents:

Political
Elector = Kurfurst
Count = Graf
Duke = Herzog
Prince = Prinz
Emperor = Kaiser

Military
Knight = Ritter
Field Marshal = Generalfeldmarshal

econ21
05-04-2007, 18:08
Patch 1.2 has been officially released. What are our plans for switching to 1.2 with this game?

I think everyone would agree we want to switch to 1.2 provided we can do so without breaking the game.

With the unofficial 1.2 patch, I was able to load up old savegames and play without a problem. However, the new savegames were not backwards compatible: Overknight could not load them on 1.1. This leads me to suspect we might be able to switch to 1.2 and continue the campaign on the newly patched game (provided we all make the switch).

However, we might want to allow some time for people to learn about potential problems in upgrading before we make an irreversible decision. I suggest we put the issue on hold over the weekend. During that interval, players with the time can patch their game and see if they can play on with old KotR saves without a glitch. I suggest we don't use Factionheir's vices and virtues files for this test - just try the unmodded 1.2 game with KotR saves and see if there is a problem.

If there is no problem, we can decide on Monday or whenever whether to switch en masse.

OverKnight
05-04-2007, 18:20
My one concern, is that I downloaded the game from direct2drive. I get the game patch through them, so there might be a delay because of that. I know there was one when the first patch came out.

econ21
05-04-2007, 18:23
My one concern, is that I downloaded the game from direct2drive. I get the game patch through them, so there might be a delay because of that. I know there was one when the first patch came out.

We can wait for you before switching; as Chancellor, you are the one who is setting the pace. People who may have battles (ie almost everyone) should be willing either to keep a copy of 1.1 on their machine or reinstall to get a 1.1 if necessary.

OverKnight
05-04-2007, 18:35
Cool, the power of being Chancellor. :laugh4:

I'm going to bed, I hope I explained the battles situation clearly enough.

I will try to post pics before I go to work, Marseille has to be seen to be believed and the Jihad situation is interesting as well.

Edit: Pics are up.

FactionHeir
05-04-2007, 19:01
Meh, I was hoping the patch would take till next Friday when I get my new (or actually a few months old) laptop. Now to find some space on this old machine...

econ21
05-04-2007, 21:14
KOTR will maybe still last a month or so before its approx over

Just to respond to a remark in the closed thread: I've been implicitly working on the assumption that this PBM will last a year (ie up to Christmas), like Will of the Senate did. Maybe I am way out with this estimate. We have 22 provinces now, but it has taken about 4 months. The game will slow down as it goes on: more micromanagement, more battles/turn etc. I'm in no hurry to rush our conquests - I'd like us to fight the Mongols, the Timurids and go to America. Maybe we will burn out before then, if so, so be it. But so far, the level of interest and activity in the PBM seems excellent, so I am pretty confident we will last more than a month.

TinCow
05-04-2007, 22:48
I'm not sure if it will take until Christmas, but it definitely won't be done in a month. We'll be lucky if the next Chancellor's term has even begun a month from now.

Ignoramus
05-05-2007, 03:07
Good luck in defeating two Jihad armies.

flyd
05-05-2007, 05:25
I've fought my battle. Here's the save for the next in line:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1188-2.zip

OverKnight
05-05-2007, 06:12
Thanks FLYdude. :2thumbsup:

Dutch_guy you're up. Or is it still Kagemusha covering?

AussieGiant
05-05-2007, 07:19
Hey all,

Fantastic news about 1.2

I did not see any mention of the Shield Bug being fixed. Can anyone confirm?

I certainly don't get the impression it will be over in one month. Ideally until the end of the year would be great.

Without trying to dampen the Role-playing it would be a little disappointing not to play through all of the main aspects of the game as Econ mentioned.

I have a personal interest in seeing if we can actually lose a few battles and the Mongols and Timurids seem to be my only hope against you professionals :beam:

It's a fairly tight knit group here and that is hopefully more a positive than a negative over time.

On the various boards I visit, I always wonder how the groups I interact with would go having a beer together on a Sunday afternoon. I'd say we'd all have a pretty good time chatting and getting to know each other. I'd hope that would avoid any burn out issues that might crop up.

Back to the game. Those two Jihad armies are looking a little threatening...maybe a few thinking caps have to go on in order to get out of this scrap relatively unscathed.

AussieGiant
05-05-2007, 08:10
has anyone noticed that there is now no version stated in the start up screen now? Is that meant to be the case? Before I have ver 1.1 in the top right hand corner.

Ignore this post.

In the options screen it says ver. 1.02

OverKnight
05-05-2007, 11:05
It looks like Kagemusha has the save and will be fighting von Kastilien's battle in a 4-5 hours.

FactionHeir
05-05-2007, 11:41
I'd like to draw your attention to the promised 1.22b update for the fixes you can find here:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix122b.rar

Until I get my 1.02 to work (probably reinstall ...) or my hands on the 1.02 files which probably won't be any different from the leaked ones according to things posted by Lusted, 1.22b will be the most up-to-date version fixing anything I can think of.

OverKnight
05-05-2007, 21:29
Neat shot of the Portuguese prince getting flambeed in your AAR, econ21. Not a good death.

A very interesting read as well.

OverKnight
05-06-2007, 04:44
Change of plans, we're waiting for Dutch_guy to return from his vacation, should be within a day or two, so that he can fight the battle at Breslau.

While we're waiting for that, I'm taking back the save. I've got work I can do on it. We've still got a few battles to fight, so there's no rush on Breslau specifically, though I would like to keep momentum going in general.

TinCow
05-06-2007, 05:01
Are the Crusade/Jihad battles this year? If so, I can fight one any time tomorrow.

OverKnight
05-06-2007, 05:14
Yup, one of the reasons I took back the save. I'll set up you and econ21 and then you two can fight Jihadapalooza while I slumber.

Edit: The Chancellor's report has been updated:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1529590&postcount=116

AussieGiant
05-06-2007, 07:32
I'm excited!!!

FactionHeir
05-06-2007, 09:04
OK Are you still on 1.01 or 1.02? I think that may be important for the crusader battles as I think econ updated? (backwards incompatibility)

econ21
05-06-2007, 09:46
Given I'm on UK time and TC is on US, I'll go first. I've followed TCs example and set up a dual install of MTW, 1.1 for the PBM and 1.2 for me, so there won't be a problem of incompatibility.

AussieGiant
05-06-2007, 10:39
I've upgraded and had no problem finishing off the last 30 turns of my first and only Long English campaign.

There were no issues at all.

I've also down loaded the save from Friday and have taken a look around with no problems.

econ21
05-06-2007, 10:47
Yes, I am pretty confident we can upgrade with no problem. The issue is that we must all upgrade together, as apparently upgraded savegames don't work with 1.1. Overknight, do you have any more information about your situation and the availability of a directdownload update?

OverKnight
05-06-2007, 13:29
Overknight, do you have any more information about your situation and the availability of a directdownload update?

The patch is not listed on direct2drive yet. With 1.1 there was a few days between the official release and a d2d version being available. I expect the same delay here. I will, of course, chime in once I have 1.2 available to install.

TinCow
05-06-2007, 14:37
Am I fighting this with 1.1 or 1.2?

econ21
05-06-2007, 14:39
Am I fighting this with 1.1 or 1.2?

1.1. We will switch to 1.2 when Overknight has a direct2drive patch that he can use.

OverKnight
05-06-2007, 14:43
TC, after the Jihad battle, don't wander too far. If the spy can open up Adana's gates, I might send the save right back at you.

TinCow
05-06-2007, 15:00
K, downloading save and fighting it now.

TinCow
05-06-2007, 15:42
Battle won. For the record, enemy armies will large numbers of catapults + flaming projectiles + two generals you really don't want to die = tension on the battlefield

After the battle was done, I marched on Adana. The spy worked and opened the gates, so I took the liberty of taking the fortress as well. The save is now with us in possession of Adana. Enjoy the 8281 plunder from the sack.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1188-5.zip

OverKnight
05-06-2007, 15:56
Yeah, sorry about sending Otto, but I figured he could get the cav back to the 1st army the best. Also, it's a decent angle with the Bavarians fighting a battle before parting ways.

I'm grabbing the save.

TinCow
05-06-2007, 15:59
Actually, I was more terrified for Max for a while.

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/KOTR/crusade/turkboom.jpg

AussieGiant
05-06-2007, 16:06
Base this is Ghostrider!!

Ghostrider this is Base go ahead over.

Base this is Ghotrider...scratch two Jihad Muslim armies!!

...permission to buzz the tower over?!!

Ghostrider this is Base...that's a negative...the tower is full.

OverKnight
05-06-2007, 16:11
LOL AG.

Since were using catch phrases. . .

I love it when a plan comes together.

Can't wait for the battle reports. :2thumbsup:

econ21
05-06-2007, 17:45
Battle report up.

One thing I've found in my English AAR is that even though you fight endless battles, battles against full AI stacks are disappointingly rare and so should be savoured when you get the chance. Hence Henry's bellicose pushing that we attack both jihads.

AussieGiant
05-06-2007, 18:17
I'm glad someone thought it was funny OK

Yes...the juggernaut continues to roll on towards glory and a whole lot of heathen harem's.

econ I'm seeing a few more full stacks in my second long campaign as the Scottish. I'm now halfway through (going a little fast for my taste, but I have certainly given the AI time to upgrade) it and I'm still stuck at 16 provinces.

I don't think I will ever "win" without some steam rolling at the start.

FactionHeir
05-06-2007, 19:17
Hopefully we'll be able to take Jerusalem before too many of Mandorf's units desert. I think they still desert inside towns contrary to what the manual says. At least it used to happen to me.

Btw, I'm currently looking at the 1.02 traits/ancillaries and don't see any/many changes from the leaked version, so there won't be much in terms of changes for version 1.23. Mainly some reduced thresholds as I increased most bad trait tresholds to 2 (from 1) for the 1.1 game versions as otherwise good traits are immediately lost due to the anti trat bug which is fixed in 1.02 from what I hear (have yet to test though)
So yeah, for the time being continue using 1.22b (link on page 1 of this thread)

TinCow
05-06-2007, 19:26
My battle report will be done tomorrow morning, EST.

OverKnight
05-06-2007, 19:37
Edit: Dutch_guy has decided to push off the assault on Breslau to next turn. Warluster's battle is the only one left.

I am mostly done with the save for this year. We still have one battle pending.

Warluster, you've got some rebel scum to kill.

First come, first serve. Just post in this thread if you grab the save and post a link to the new uploaded save once the battle is fought.

I am sending PMs to you two as well.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1188-6.zip

TevashSzat
05-06-2007, 22:57
I'm probably gonna be out for around a week and a half guys since I got AP exams to take and gotta cram for them. If I have to fight any battles, I'll try to do it and get it to you guys as quickly as possible, but no promises so someone could fight it for me or you can auto.

OverKnight
05-06-2007, 23:02
Good luck on the exams, hope you get 5s. :2thumbsup: I wouldn't worry too much, we have to get Friedrich knighted before he can lead his own battles.

Thanks for the heads up.

GeneralHankerchief
05-06-2007, 23:59
Ditto with exams this week. I'm going to be a bit more inactive (more than I have been), sorry.

I'd also like to thank KotR for helping me out (indirectly) on the SATs. When I saw the essay question I couldn't help but laugh.

FactionHeir
05-07-2007, 01:03
What was it? "Write an essay on the investiture controversy"? :p

Warluster
05-07-2007, 07:34
I am back from my trip.

I am downloading save soon, and will play the battle.

Warluster
05-07-2007, 08:20
Okay, the battles done, am downloading the save as kotr1188-7

The battle was easy, I killed some 200 and captured some 190, easy battle, none left standing :)

AussieGiant
05-07-2007, 09:34
Okay, the battles done, am downloading the save as kotr1188-7

The battle was easy, I killed some 200 and captured some 190, easy battle, none left standing :)

Crush the rebel scum Warluster!! :)

Stuperman
05-07-2007, 15:50
just in looking over the reich, we have 3 merchants guildes, what do they do? and would a different one be better in Genoa?

FactionHeir
05-07-2007, 15:54
They increase trade returns and allow better merchants to be trained. At least in the newest KOTRfix version.

TinCow
05-07-2007, 16:33
My battle report is up.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1530952&postcount=58

AussieGiant
05-07-2007, 18:22
Econ, TC,

Excellent write ups. They made the battles seem far less crushing :)

TinCow
05-07-2007, 18:29
I wish we had played with the 1.2 AI, as I suspect the Turks would have held their excellent defensive position with that patch. As you can see, I only killed 1/4 of their army and lost about 1/4 of my own. The rest was all captured after a chain rout. If they had held their lines and showered my approach with even more artillery fire, I suspect I would have lost at least 50% before breaking them.

econ21
05-07-2007, 19:21
R.I.P. Dietrich von Saxony.

Kagemusha, do you want to pick up Jonas as your new avatar?

Kagemusha
05-07-2007, 20:43
I will still have to write the last wishes of old Dietrich,before letting him go.But Young Jonas could be an exellent choice.We cant leave him abandoned,now can we.~;)

econ21
05-07-2007, 20:59
That was a moving death scene for Dietrich, Kagemusha. I particularly liked the use of the "Lord is my shepherd". :bow:

And an excellent battle report, TC. I felt I was riding there with you.

OverKnight
05-07-2007, 21:06
1190 is nearly complete,

We have three battles to be fought before the year can conclude, all forces have been positioned but have not engaged yet:

First, Breslau needs to be assaulted by Dutch_guy. The large Polish force under Captain Zygmunt will now not be part of the battle, they went a short distance north to assault some Rebels. Still, once Breslau is taken if Dutch_guy wants to attack them too, he may do so. In fact I would encourage it, since we need a clear path to Thorn in case the Russkies decide to attack us.

Second, FLYdude you've got some rebels to fight north of Magdeburg.

Third, Warluster, Prinz Jobst and Friedrich Scherer have some rebels to face southwest of Nuremburg. This would be a good opportunity to get Scherer knighted so he can become an independent operator. I apologize for the small force under your command, but I didn't want the Rebels to flee. They could hop back and forth across the river to the south for turns while I tried to bring them to earth.

Here's the save:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1190.zip

Same routine as before. First come, first serve, whoever gets the save let the others know and then provide a link to the new uploaded save so the next person in line can continue.

PM me, or post here if you have questions.

Good luck! :2thumbsup:

Kagemusha
05-07-2007, 21:11
That was a moving death scene for Dietrich, Kagemusha. I particularly liked the use of the "Lord is my shepherd". :bow:

Thanks Econ.:bow: Now Dietrich´s final will is up in the Imperial Diet,so think its time for me to transform to Jonas Von Mahren.I will miss that old warhorse.:yes:

OverKnight
05-07-2007, 21:16
The recent writing has been very good TC, econ and Kagemusha. I particularly enjoyed the contrast in styles between Henry and Max.

TinCow
05-07-2007, 21:46
It might be worth holding off on the peace offers with other nations until you get 1.2 installed. The diplomatic AI seems far more rational in that patch and I think we would stand a much better chance of peace, especially with Milan, since we do not share a land border.

OverKnight
05-07-2007, 21:51
Understood.

direct2drive still does not have their version of the patch out. I will post when that happens.

So basically, everyone's set to upgrade, there's no problem, except the guy with the save has to wait. :wall:

Warluster
05-07-2007, 22:21
So can I download the save and play the battle?

econ21
05-07-2007, 22:31
Same routine as before. First come, first serve, whoever gets the save let the others know and then provide a link to the new uploaded save so the next person in line can continue.

Yes, Warluster: go ahead and play out your battle, but don't forget to load up the savegame promptly for those next on the scene.

Warluster
05-07-2007, 22:46
I have fought the battle, and killed the lot of 'em again. (sigh) but can't upload untill this afternoon due to work, sorry!

FactionHeir
05-07-2007, 22:58
It only take likes a minute to upload :inquisitive:

OverKnight
05-07-2007, 23:13
Since Dutch_guy will play his battle(s) "sometime tomorrow", Warluster's delay is not too bad. I would have liked the save to be available
for FLYdude, who's in Arizona I believe, but I don't have any confirmation he'll be able to play tonight anyway. Let's just keep going.

I would appreciate it in the future that before someone downloads and plays the save that they have means to upload promptly. Despite having a battle report and such, play can't continue until that save is uploaded.

Remember we're here to have fun, but efficient and timely fun. :laugh4:

Dutch_guy
05-07-2007, 23:50
Since Dutch_guy will play his battle(s) "sometime tomorrow", Warluster's delay is not too bad.


I decided to play the battle tomorrow because of Warluster not having the time to upload, which I assume will have happened when I wake up tomorrow.

:balloon2:

OverKnight
05-08-2007, 00:04
:wall:

I was unaware of this little wrinkle.

We stick to the originial plan. If we lose a day, that just means I have less time to wait for direct2drive to get its patch out.

FactionHeir
05-08-2007, 00:22
Maybe if Warluster doesn't mind fighting his battle again, Dutch_guy could fight his now? I think overall that would save time.
But then it depends on how time critical it is.

OverKnight
05-08-2007, 00:26
Alright, hypothetically, Dutch_guy and FLYdude, would you be able to you play your battles now?

flyd
05-08-2007, 00:40
Well, I may seem to be around, but I should be busy. So, while available now in an emergency, I would much rather get to it in a few hours' time.

OverKnight
05-08-2007, 01:10
Thanks for the offer, but let's stick with what we got. Warluster will upload the save, Dutch_guy will play it, and then I hope FLYdude has some time tomorrow night. This syncs up well with the time zone differences and I get the feeling that if I try to futz with this anymore, I'll just make things worse.

Ignoramus
05-08-2007, 03:49
You realise that we can't give Jerusalem to the Pope? He is still on that fleet, and as such contact is impossible.

TinCow
05-08-2007, 04:01
Not in the latest save. He's landed on Corsica.

OverKnight
05-08-2007, 04:17
Yup, the Pope's on Corsica. I mentioned it in the Chancellor's report when he made landfall. I've moved a diplomat right next to him this turn that will contact him when needed.

Now, the possibility exists with the wonky diplomacy AI that his Holiness could refuse our gift for some weird reason. Sometimes, the AI seems to get suspicious if you're too generous. I've got my fingers crossed.

Ignoramus
05-08-2007, 05:48
I still can't believe that we haven't captured Sardinia or Corsica yet. However, maybe that may happen soon.

Stuperman
05-08-2007, 05:53
I still can't believe that we haven't captured Sardinia or Corsica yet. However, maybe that may happen soon.

I'd second that

OverKnight
05-08-2007, 05:54
Hey, I was right there with you in 1140, but the majority of people didn't want to finish them off then. Until the Crusade is complete we can't move on them anyway. Even then, they're pretty high on Papal standing so it might not be the wisest thing to try to finish them off.

Ignoramus
05-08-2007, 06:30
I'm just worried about the relative ease with which the Crusade has marched through Palestine. Unless they get ambushed suddenly by an army of Turks like at Dorylaeum.

OverKnight
05-08-2007, 07:01
The Crusade did eviscerate forty Egyptian units on their way to Palestine. We've earned a turn's worth of peaceful travel. The units in Antioch, Jihad remnants and others could still march south.

Warluster
05-08-2007, 08:11
Okay, I am really really sorry for the delay, but I thought i'd have time but was rushed, sorry for causing all the fuss! Will be faster next time!

I am uploading now.

Warluster
05-08-2007, 08:39
Save is uploaded.

DO I have to do another Battle Report? Because the battle was a exact repeat of the last one, go behind them, slaughter the good cavalry and infantry with Jobst, then frontal charge with the rest and their all gone.

ANyway, here is the screen:

https://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s193/Warluster/medieval22007-05-0807-42-16-79.jpg

Pretty easy, I wanna deal with some better units now! lol.

OverKnight
05-08-2007, 08:48
Posting a battle report is completely optional. I enjoy doing them myself. Still, killing rebels is necessary but often boring task. Nice kill ratio by the way, it's not like you're fighting peasants, they had some good units.

I assume Friedrich is knighted?

Warluster
05-08-2007, 09:15
Yep, he shall be knighted.

Thinking on doing a co-op story with xdeathfire about it. What do you think xdeathfire?

The battle was pretty hard, as Jobst nearly got killed!

Anyway, how long untill the Crusaders reach Jerusalam? ANd if we suck anymore generals out of the Reich then it will be empty of leaders!

FactionHeir
05-08-2007, 11:34
Its actually scary how few troops the egyptians and turks have left. Egyptians do have another full stack but its hidden somewhere in the northern mountains...
Also checked on finances and turks and egyptians seem to be near 0. Happened in my SP campaign too, where I gave em 40k a turn and next turn they'd be broke again (because the AI doesn't seem restricted by unit pool, its pool is always full...bug or intended)

Dutch_guy
05-08-2007, 11:38
OK, I will be picking up the save in the next 5 minutes, and will fight the battle immediately after that.

:balloon2:

TinCow
05-08-2007, 12:05
Its actually scary how few troops the egyptians and turks have left. Egyptians do have another full stack but its hidden somewhere in the northern mountains...
Also checked on finances and turks and egyptians seem to be near 0. Happened in my SP campaign too, where I gave em 40k a turn and next turn they'd be broke again (because the AI doesn't seem restricted by unit pool, its pool is always full...bug or intended)

We've smashed two full Egyptian stacks and one full Turkish stack. That's bound to have some impact on them. There are still some large Egyptian armies around, but they are on their borders, where you would expect them to be. If you want a chance at the Egyptians summoning some reinforcements, you shouldn't be pushing to get into Acre by attacking the reinforcements that are adjacent to the settlement. Spend a few turns besieging the place, or better yet just take Jerusalem and then deal with Acre afterwards.

FactionHeir
05-08-2007, 12:17
Actually Gaza is a citadel so they have better chances of getting reinforcements there than in Acre where we already stand at the gates.
The main problem the turks and egyptians have right now is lack of funds anyway. Leaving them the castles won't make them train more as their current upkeep (especially after losing Jerusalem) will be too high with their full stack to the north to hire more.

TinCow
05-08-2007, 12:26
No, they won't train units there, but it will give them time to move armies from other places to help defend the places. Regardless, I don't see how you can complain about their weakness and then push to take more settlements from them as fast as possible.

FactionHeir
05-08-2007, 12:48
I would like to think so, and a human player would do that too, but experience and script files say otherwise.
If you have more than twice the frontline balance of military power (and we have ~4x or 5x) the AI will stay inside its cities and defend those instead of moving armies about to defend a city where you currently are, as they are aware the place is lost.

Right now, the only actual army they can move is north of Adana and that one will at best attack Adana or else just camp near Antioch. They have nothing south of Gaza that they can realistically send towards our position within 4 turns even. Plus even if they could, as I said above, they won't - they'll stay in the regions they currently are in due to "deep_defense"

As you may be aware, I am not complaining about their weakness at all but merely posting observations in terms of comparing to my SP campaigns. The OOC thread is to banter anyway. We have Mongols to worry about soon enough anyway.

TinCow
05-08-2007, 13:29
Yeah, I'm eager to see the Mongols as well, especially with a 1.2 campaign and battle AI. Hopefully we won't be so powerful in the region by then that they won't be a challenge. I would love to a see a crisis caused by the loss of settlements and generals to the Mongol hordes.

What year is it that they finally show up on the map? 1240? 1260?

FactionHeir
05-08-2007, 15:08
1224 the latest, 1208 the earliest I think. That's the warn. 4-8 years later the first wave.

TinCow
05-08-2007, 15:14
Wow, that means they could come in the next Chancellorship and definitely by the one following. I'm excited!

FactionHeir
05-08-2007, 16:11
Dutch_guy is still fighting that battle?

Dutch_guy
05-08-2007, 16:36
Dutch_guy is still fighting that battle?

Just finished, am currently uploading.

Here's the save:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1190-1-fin.rar

:balloon2:

AussieGiant
05-08-2007, 16:49
I'm playing 1.2 and 10 Full 9 star Mongol stacks turned up and took Adana off me.

I have a full stack fairly advanced Scottish stack in it. It was a castle second from the top. They attacked with three stacks and took it off me after losing about 1400 men.

I lost the lot plus a really good general in the process. I had Antioch, Adana and the city to the north and west of Adana. I “turtled down” and waited them out. They nailed Adana then set off for Constantinople. I can't imagine we can fight them off. In fact I hope we can't.

I think you all know that by now I'm far more interested in succeeding in the face of adversity rather than it all being too easy.

FactionHeir
05-08-2007, 17:32
I think we will have troubles withe Mongols too mainly because we lack high star generals. I mean the highest star general we got right now has like what? 4 or 5 stars?
Plus we are kind of behind on technology (the joys of PBMing :p )

We do get to hope though that the mongols behave like they do in my SP campaigns: sit around their spawning point doing absolutely nothing till Timurids invade. Of course we could jsut declare war on them for fun (by sending up an assassin) but yeah.

What is needed to kill mongols: highly experienced mt.sgt. or mailed knights + several long range missile units. Or just several full stacks of mailed knights + a few feudals. But our house rules prohibit that :D
Maybe eventually those rules might get changed as the event advisor says: "New tactics are needed for new foes"

I'd say though that we ought to only consider loosening those rules once we lost a battle or two against them to signify we noticing their tactics and the need to adapt and not before even engaging them. Maybe an emergency session even

AussieGiant
05-08-2007, 17:53
I think we will have troubles withe Mongols too mainly because we lack high star generals. I mean the highest star general we got right now has like what? 4 or 5 stars?
Plus we are kind of behind on technology (the joys of PBMing :p )

We do get to hope though that the mongols behave like they do in my SP campaigns: sit around their spawning point doing absolutely nothing till Timurids invade. Of course we could jsut declare war on them for fun (by sending up an assassin) but yeah.

What is needed to kill mongols: highly experienced mt.sgt. or mailed knights + several long range missile units. Or just several full stacks of mailed knights + a few feudals. But our house rules prohibit that :D
Maybe eventually those rules might get changed as the event advisor says: "New tactics are needed for new foes"

I'd say though that we ought to only consider loosening those rules once we lost a battle or two against them to signify we noticing their tactics and the need to adapt and not before even engaging them. Maybe an emergency session even

Leopold is an 8 or 9 star general.

They did hang around in my SP game on 1.2 for a while, but once they decided they wanted Constaninople they really went for it.

I'd say our parliamentary system will be quite a problem for creating Mongol killing armies, and I really don't know how we can afford serveral full stacks of heavy cavalry. Tactical change is certainly plausible but will it happen fast enough?

The only way to consider loosening the rules is to Role Play, and certainly I would expect the first few engagements to be ugly before an emergency session is called.

FactionHeir
05-08-2007, 18:10
Let the sign ups for the first person to assault a multi stack of mongols begin then haha

AussieGiant
05-08-2007, 18:16
Let the sign ups for the first person to assault a multi stack of mongols begin then haha

LOL!!

Yes that will surely be a "Folorn Hope"!!

TinCow
05-08-2007, 18:40
Let the sign ups for the first person to assault a multi stack of mongols begin then haha

Actually, I'll happily do it. I'd like to write a dramatic death scene. Avatar shortages are essentially over already and we'll probably have too few players for our generals by the time the Mongols arrive, so there's no real penalty to dying, unless you're REALLY attached to the guy.

StoneCold
05-08-2007, 19:40
But there is still the question of avatars available in the ME. Austrian are not represented, but relatively near. Franconian's will leave once von Mahren left. Bavarians are left to Max, Otto and once you 2 dies out, that's the end of the line too. Can Max and Otto still adopt? Only Swabians seems to be well represented in the family line, with Henry, Hans and soon Ulrich. They seems best able to absorb avatar casualties and still have a line in the ME.

Warluster
05-08-2007, 22:32
So the hordes are pretty close! Excellent!

Thye might also wipe out our enemies (Russia (not war though) Turkey etc) Even Better!

FactionHeir
05-08-2007, 22:42
If they land near Baghdad or anywhere else in the ME, they'll likely hit the Turks or us. If they land in Sarkel, they'll either go for Russians or down to Turkey.
After we patch to 1.2, same religion factions get relations boost, so its likely they might just skip those guys and head straight for us.

TinCow
05-08-2007, 23:59
What are the Baghdad/Sarkel odds? In a dozen campaigns, I have never seen them appear anywhere other than Baghdad.

FactionHeir
05-09-2007, 00:33
They can appear: Baghdad, Sarkel, Yerevan. So 1/3 each.
Usually appear near Yerevan for me.

Btw, who's supposed to have the save atm? Noticed nothing happening today after Dutch_guy's battle?

OverKnight
05-09-2007, 01:33
It turns out that we've got one more battle this year, as we have to crush that large Polish army NE of Breslau.

I swear this is the last one.

Dutch_guy
05-09-2007, 15:46
Just a quick note confirming I have the save, and will be fighting the pending battle ASAP.

:balloon2:

Ituralde
05-09-2007, 18:07
Speaking of Battles. I finally updated the last two battle report that were missing. I know that the text has been up for a few days now, but I finally have all the pictures in place. Enjoy! :beam:

Dutch_guy
05-09-2007, 18:33
This has been up the past to hours, but due to the fora being offline I didn't get the chance to provide a link. Here it is:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1190-3-fin.rar

:balloon2:

FactionHeir
05-09-2007, 18:45
Here goes me hoping our spy manages to open the gates of Acre or there is still an egyptian army outside of it when OK ends turn :D

Dutch_guy
05-09-2007, 18:53
Here goes me hoping our spy manages to open the gates of Acre or there is still an egyptian army outside of it when OK ends turn :D

Well, I ran into an unfortunate problem in the siege of Breslau last evening - a spy problem. You see the pre battle screen told me the spy had opened the gates, as a result of which I immediately ordered my siege carrying forces to drop their equipment, and moved them as close to the walls as I could. Sadly, it seemed my spy had supplied false information, as the gates were still shut...

:balloon2:

FactionHeir
05-09-2007, 18:57
That never happened to me. Sounds definitely like a bug though, unless there is an issue with a foreign spy being inside the settlement causing it to display the open gates icon (i.e. say a Hungarian/Danish spy in the Polish settlement). Pretty annoying too I bet!

FactionHeir
05-09-2007, 22:56
Version 1.22c is up.
A lot of fixes inside except for the threshold fixes which I will bring out once the chancellor has patched to M2TW 1.02.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix122c.rar

Please make sure you update.
1.23 is actually ready and 1.22c is just 1.23 minus the lower thresholds due to antitraits.

OverKnight
05-10-2007, 00:52
FactionHeir, when I click on your link to the save, I get redirected to atomicgamer. Also the save is not listed in the PBM files. While there might be a problem with the uploader, could you give another shot at uploading?

TinCow
05-10-2007, 00:58
FactionHeir, when I click on your link to the save, I get redirected to atomicgamer. Also the save is not listed in the PBM files. While there might be a problem with the uploader, could you give another shot at uploading?

It works for me. Atomic Gamer is where you get redirected sometimes when the forum goes down, so I'm guessing there was a temporary website problem when you tried to get the file. Try again.

OverKnight
05-10-2007, 01:00
Yup, you were right. Got the save. I will now update my fixes and then on to Jerusalem.

TinCow
05-10-2007, 02:03
Library Bios have been added for Elberhard and Helmut von Hamburg. AFAIK they have no yet been assigned to players.

OverKnight
05-10-2007, 08:16
My battle report is finished.

Ignoramus
05-10-2007, 08:24
OverKnight, where's Ulrich at the moment? I hope he doesn't get sunk by an Egyptian fleet.

OverKnight
05-10-2007, 09:07
Ulrich and the fleet are off the Greek coast south of Corinth. You'll be in the Holy Land in 3-4 turns. Before the Crusade ends, I'll make sure to move his fleet first.

As for getting sunk, due to the house rule of 2 units a ship, the fleet is 5 Holks. I doubt Ulrich is in danger.

econ21
05-10-2007, 09:18
On the unassigned avatars (one Franconian and one Swabian), my understanding is that there are only Austrian players who do not currently have avatars. If any such players wants to "borrow" one of the new avatars until an Austrian spawns, that would be fine.

Now would also be a good time for any lurkers who want to join the game to sign up - they should be able to get an avatar and jump right in.

Otherwise, we will just leave the two new generals unassigned, so that players whose avatars die will have a "resurrection hulk" to respawn into. (For sci-fi fans, yes, that revelation means GH is the last of the final five cylons - which might explain a lot, when you think about it. :laugh4: )

OverKnight
05-10-2007, 09:30
Ummm. . .we're already Vampires it seems, Heinrich's reign was 90 years, do we need to add psychotic robots to the mix?

Of course I have been tempted to have Otto say, "Sometimes you gotta roll a hard six" in a battle report.

To GH's credit, Conrad is hardly a clone of Heinrich, quite the opposite. When Otto kicks it, I'm not sure I'll be able to establish a different character as easily.

Edit: I am periodically checking direct2drive's site looking for their patch release, no joy yet. Very frustrating.

AussieGiant
05-10-2007, 10:21
Ummm. . .we're already Vampires it seems, Heinrich's reign was 90 years, do we need to add psychotic robots to the mix?

Of course I have been tempted to have Otto say, "Sometimes you gotta roll a hard six" in a battle report.

To GH's credit, Conrad is hardly a clone of Heinrich, quite the opposite. When Otto kicks it, I'm not sure I'll be able to establish a different character as easily.

Edit: I am periodically checking direct2drive's site looking for their patch release, no joy yet. Very frustrating.

LOL,

Roll a hard six...that's classic.

I'm sure you can use the avatar character traits to get a starting point for the next person you inhabit OK

Econ,

I'll still stand pat on the avatar issue. "Arnold of Austria: Governor of California" is around the corner, so I'll hang out until he's spawned.

Ignoramus
05-10-2007, 10:55
A people's governor? I can just see you running for Chancellor.

TinCow
05-10-2007, 11:58
Edict 8.1: The Chancellor must crush our enemies, see them driven before us, and hear the lamentation of their women.

Northnovas
05-10-2007, 12:24
On the unassigned avatars (one Franconian and one Swabian), my understanding is that there are only Austrian players who do not currently have avatars. If any such players wants to "borrow" one of the new avatars until an Austrian spawns, that would be fine.

I am still here and I have been patiently waiting. "Borrowing" one now would not feel right at this point. However, if Meckil heads towards being a spinster I may have to rethink my options.

OverKnight
05-10-2007, 13:15
Edict 8.1: The Chancellor must crush our enemies, see them driven before us, and hear the lamentation of their women.

Technically I think that would have to be an ammendment, since it would risk excommunication. :laugh4:

Still I would have loved to fulfill that edict.

Stuperman
05-10-2007, 13:42
Nice battles guys, really kicking egyptian ass. At this point is Antioch being left for later? or till after the crusades are over to avoid desertion? Any news on the french front?

TinCow
05-10-2007, 13:55
Yep, Antioch is being ignored for now. Keep in mind that all Crusade related legislation is about to expire, because the Crusade will be done. That means that the Council of Crusaders comes to an end and the Diet resumes decision making control over what goes on out there.

FactionHeir
05-10-2007, 13:58
And massive expansion in Europe is possible again too. Unless we call a new edict at the next session.
OK gets to call the shots till then though ~:)

OverKnight
05-10-2007, 14:03
The French haven't said boo since Ignoramus gutted them and we snuck into Marseille. It's not for lack of troops, but I think we have enough forces on their border that they're being cautious.

Edit: Remember, we now have to consider our papal standing. Many of the catholic nations are high in his favor. If we blitz, our rating will nosedive.

TinCow
05-10-2007, 14:09
I suspect that the next Diet Session will see a lot of debate over expansion vs internal development.

FactionHeir
05-10-2007, 14:11
How old is the current pope btw. I guess we might get an Imperial pope next, which means all factions at war with us get a nosedive in terms of papal standing.

OverKnight
05-10-2007, 14:13
The Chancellor's report has been updated:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1535686&postcount=124

I have sent the save out to Ituralde, once I get it back I can conclude the year and move to the next. I should resume playing this evening (Eastern).

Maybe it's just me, but we've fought a lot of battles recently.

Edit: Pope Pisanus is young for a Pope, 56.

Kagemusha
05-10-2007, 14:50
On the unassigned avatars (one Franconian and one Swabian), my understanding is that there are only Austrian players who do not currently have avatars. If any such players wants to "borrow" one of the new avatars until an Austrian spawns, that would be fine.

Now would also be a good time for any lurkers who want to join the game to sign up - they should be able to get an avatar and jump right in.

Otherwise, we will just leave the two new generals unassigned, so that players whose avatars die will have a "resurrection hulk" to respawn into. (For sci-fi fans, yes, that revelation means GH is the last of the final five cylons - which might explain a lot, when you think about it. :laugh4: )

I will have to ask Ichigo if he is still playing.If he is i think he should get the Franconian avatar.:yes:

GeneralHankerchief
05-11-2007, 02:45
To GH's credit, Conrad is hardly a clone of Heinrich, quite the opposite. When Otto kicks it, I'm not sure I'll be able to establish a different character as easily.

When you have characters as dynamic as Heinrich and Conrad, it's quite easy to switch between the two since they're polar opposites. When I try to think of an action that Conrad would do, I simply ask myself what Heinrich would do in the situation and then do precisely the opposite of that. I imagine that it would be much harder to transition to a character with only a moderate amount of differences, since gradually you'd have that character evolve in the direction of the previous one.

AussieGiant
05-11-2007, 09:10
Keep in mind if we expand further in Europe it'll all be over.

It's 1190 or something for godsake. There's centries to go, there will be no point playing if we are double the size of every other nation and have a win loss ration with avatar fought battles that remains above 99.9%.

Warluster
05-11-2007, 09:20
So are you saying... that we should start losing!?

Hm...I like your style!:grin3: :laugh4: .

econ21
05-11-2007, 10:18
Keep in mind if we expand further in Europe it'll all be over.

Well, we could always do this:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=85054

As Tincow said, it's likely the expansion vs internal development tension will come to fore when the limiting legislation surrounding the crusade expires. As Chancellor after OK, I will try to restrain the urge to conquer for the OOC reason AussieGiant gives but I will try to make it interesting for those who feel frustrated by this.

It would be useful to know if players feel they personally are not fighting enough battles (I assume all players love fighting battles, so this is the default sentiment), but also to hear from anyone who is sick of squashing rebels or fighting defensive border engagements. If you let me know, we should be able to work out ways of rotating postings and thinking up diversions to keep everyone happy while not making the game a cakewalk.

One idea I am toying with as Chancellor is to give the AI their 100k/Diet as usual. That should allow them to upgrade buildings, hire stuff etc. But then also to give them 10k/turn afterwards, to help pay the upkeep for whatever they have splurged on.


Maybe it's just me, but we've fought a lot of battles recently.

We are now in the mid-game period where multiple battles per turn may be the norm. The WotS slowed down a lot during this period because of it. But we've kept up a good pace so far.

Northnovas
05-11-2007, 12:38
One idea I am toying with as Chancellor is to give the AI their 100k/Diet as usual. That should allow them to upgrade buildings, hire stuff etc. But then also to give them 10k/turn afterwards, to help pay the upkeep for whatever they have splurged on.

Is this working the 100k? Does the AI make could use of the donation from what you can see in troops. Would the 10k/turn also be properly utilized by them? It's not like it's our money we are losing but I just wondered if this was helping to make the AI more challenging overall.

FactionHeir
05-11-2007, 12:44
I think only the factions we are actively at war with (i.e. we are invading their lands or planning to) ought to get the extra 10k/turn as they won't utilize it otherwise.
As we can see, Turks and Egypt used up their 100k very quickly (or nearly anyway), while other factions we are at war with but don't invade still have over 30k left at the end of 1 chancellorship

TinCow
05-11-2007, 14:38
I will be voting for a non-expansionist policy for the next Chancellorship for one reason: The Chancellorship after this one (and several beyond that) will have to deal with the Mongols. If we restrain ourselves a little now, we will have some very challenging battles before us in the near future.

OverKnight
05-11-2007, 14:51
My apologies for my absence, Verizon DSL went down in my area for about a day. Let me catch up, and then I will finish off the year and get started on the next.

Stuperman
05-11-2007, 15:27
I'm conflicted, OOC I want a non expansionist policy, because I think it will make for a richer overall gaming expierence. BUT then Gerhard (Most gerneals in the riech actually) will be looking at a lot of boring years ahead save for an invading army or 3, I say this cause at 0 piety he really has no IC reason to go on crusade, and I'll feel a little left out. Also I think Conrad Sailer should get the riens of the BHA sooner or later....This non-religeous yes man persona of his can get boring at times.

I've been thinking of an edict where we make one last large peace offering to Milan (5K florins + trade rights or something like that) and if they refuse invade.

I personally really liked the limited expansion edict (but I did propose it :D :D ). But writing a new one would be hard as we really only are fighting the French and Poles, AFIAK Hugary and Venice have calmed down a lot and denmark, sicily and england aren't at war with us...yet. meh, the next diet session is still a ways away *puts thinking cap on*

FactionHeir
05-11-2007, 15:43
I think for now a non expansionist rule would be quite OK, although I would still say we should fight our 'natural' foes: France and Poland. We should make peace with other factions where possible and start thinking of building up massive armies in the ME to prepare for the Mongols. Or instead of armies think of building the blacksmith buildings so we get better armour for trained troops. Actually the latter would make more sense IC as we don't know of Mongols just yet.

StoneCold
05-11-2007, 15:54
I tot the mongols activities were announced in game... Just that IC, you cannot know how strong they are, ie. look down on them as a bunch of barbarians from the steppe.

FactionHeir
05-11-2007, 15:56
Mongols get announced when its 4-8 years before their actual spawn/invasion. Up until then people knew very little if anything about them or if they did thought it was nothing to worry about.

StoneCold
05-11-2007, 16:09
my bad, I tot I remember seeing something about the mongols appearing soon in one of the reports.

Stuperman
05-11-2007, 16:33
desertion as we are besieging the target city........interesting.

OverKnight
05-11-2007, 16:58
The desertion was from the Cusade forces left in Adana. I guess the OOC thing to do would have been to have Maximillian and his army leave the crusade. But IC, Max is still very much part of the Crusade, and I wasn't going to do that.

TinCow
05-11-2007, 17:01
Holy crap that's a lot of desertion. I'm right in thinking that garrison units aren't supposed to desert, right?

OverKnight
05-11-2007, 17:07
I'm not too familiar with the desertion mechanic. The forces were garrisoned in Adana. I'm a bit peeved that the regular mercs we hired deserted, you'd think they'd want to get paid.

I have recruited a DisKnight, a Serg Spearman, and Fuedal Knight for next turn. I might have Max step outside Adana and see what's available for mercs.

TinCow
05-11-2007, 17:50
I don't think hiring mercs is necessary. Jerusalem will be taken this turn, so no more desertion will happen. Adana is more than capable of supplying its own garrison.

OverKnight
05-11-2007, 17:54
Adana is more than capable of supplying its own garrison.

Long term yes, short term. . .maybe. The manpower pool has to recharge a bit, I emptied it out again recruiting those men, unless you're a fan of peasants (ok for garrison, but I wouldn't put them in the field.)

Also there's a full stack Egyptian force off to the NE, not to mention random Turk forces. . .Things could get interesting.

FactionHeir
05-11-2007, 18:12
As I warned before, the garrisoned crusade troops would desert.
This is because some code CA planned was not implemented which would prevent garrisoned troops from deserting.

Well, we'll live. Will make our mission tougher too which is good.

Stuperman
05-11-2007, 18:40
This is because some code CA planned was not implemented which would prevent garrisoned troops from deserting.

off topic:

Sounds like the story of m2tw, do they plan on implementing it do you know?

on topic:

the teutons and spearmen really hurt, pilgrims are just like peasents, and it's the fanatics are like peasents with a good attack, correct?

OverKnight
05-11-2007, 18:49
That's about the size of it. Religious fanatics are good shock troops, high attack, but they won't last long in a fight.

As for desertion, meh, we've had a good Crusade, so I'm not going to complain (too much).

OverKnight
05-11-2007, 19:11
Still no joy on a direct2drive patch. . .I'm thinking that if one does not appear by the end of my term, the rest of the PBM should upgrade for the start of econ's term and I'll make do.

If thing's get too bad, I'll just go out and get a hard copy of the game. A waste of 50 bucks, but it'll solve the problem.

AussieGiant
05-11-2007, 20:53
We certainly can't prepare for the Mongol's.

IC we have no way of knowing what is really going to hit us until after the fact.

OOC I think limiting expansion in Europe and dealing with the Middle East invasions is going to provide the best game play. I appreciate Stuperman's point though. If your back in Europe it could be a bit dull.

I guess we are just going to have to find a middle ground through IC developments such as what Econ described for rotations.

I hope there is going to be substantial death rates when facing the Mongols. Some real "backs against the walls" stuff would be great.

AussieGiant
05-11-2007, 20:55
Still no joy on a direct2drive patch. . .I'm thinking that if one does not appear by the end of my term, the rest of the PBM should upgrade for the start of econ's term and I'll make do.

If thing's get too bad, I'll just go out and get a hard copy of the game. A waste of 50 bucks, but it'll solve the problem.

We should do a whip round...and rustle up the cash to help :2thumbsup:

TinCow
05-11-2007, 23:31
I see nothing wrong with limited expansion in Europe, as was legislated previously. Despite limiting conquests during the Crusade, we still took Venice, Budapest, Ragusa, Breslau, and Marsaille, as well as re-taking Metz. Not exactly shabby on European expansion.

AussieGiant
05-12-2007, 08:28
I see nothing wrong with limited expansion in Europe, as was legislated previously. Despite limiting conquests during the Crusade, we still took Venice, Budapest, Ragusa, Breslau, and Marsaille, as well as re-taking Metz. Not exactly shabby on European expansion.

And that's with "limiting" expansion. Can you imagine what would happen without it?

Still, as long as the excommunication mechanism is in place and we choose to remain "one of the flock" I assume it will be fairly self regulating.

econ21
05-12-2007, 10:15
Overknight, you might want to reschedule Ulrich's battle if at all possible. Ignoramus does not usually log on over the weekend, so at best we will have a 2 day hiatus and at worst, an autoresolve if the deadline expires.

Kagemusha
05-12-2007, 10:25
I think that if there should be limited expansion in Europe,that should apply to Middle East also.Europe shouldnt be a sideshow as many players concentrate on middle east.

TinCow
05-12-2007, 13:58
I agree.

Ituralde
05-12-2007, 16:39
I for one have a diametrically differen view. Those who want to fight should go to the Levant, and if that means that nearly everybody will go there, well it has just become quite interesting for the sole remaining defenders of the Reich.
But we'll see how the next Diet turns out.

I'm surprised that I am the first one though commenting on the capture of Jerusalem. It has been a little quiet there of late. I am already looking forward to the Mongol Invasion, will put Leopolds speech in a whole new light. Who could stop us indeed... :2thumbsup:

OverKnight
05-12-2007, 17:40
Overknight, you might want to reschedule Ulrich's battle if at all possible. Ignoramus does not usually log on over the weekend, so at best we will have a 2 day hiatus and at worst, an autoresolve if the deadline expires.

Yeah, I thought about that after I sent him the battle. Still, there's not much left to do in 1198, other than that. As it is already early Sunday there, I'm sure he'll have an oppurtunity to get to it.

Besides, this gives me more time to work on my farewell speech. . .

OverKnight
05-12-2007, 18:39
Well, I sent an inquiry to direct2drives support site asking about when the 1.2 patch will be available, here's what I got in reply:


Some Direct2Drive games are not patchable with patches made for cdroms. They are pre-patched when you download them. Unlike cdroms that come as the first version ever, our downloads are pre-patched saving you the hassle. If you are experiencing a problem with your game, a patch is not the answer. Please do not seek patches on other sites. Any patches made after your purchase will be available on Direct2Drive's website.

http://www.direct2drive.com/patches/index.aspx

Please check the game info page on Direct2Drive.com to see your download's version.

If a patch has been released, we will work expeditously to have it for you on Direct2Drive.

:furious3:

"Expeditiously" my ass.

As I suggested before, I think that the PBM should upgrade to 1.2 once the save goes to econ for his Chancellorship. I wouldn't want the other players to wait for a vague promise. I'll catch up when I can, if Otto gets involved in a battle, I'll buy a hardcopy. Though one of the reasons I left him in Acre was to avoid him doing so for the next few turns. Hopefully between that and the Diet session, I'll actually get a patch. Without a solid release date, however, I'm still playing it by ear.

econ21
05-12-2007, 22:06
Thanks OK - I agree that we should upgrade to 1.2 at the start of the next Diet.

Factionheir: do you have 1.2 working on your machine yet?

OverKnight
05-12-2007, 22:16
I have a question, we want Meckil, Leopold's daughter, to get married to provide a second Austrian avatar. What's the best way to ensure this happens? I would think refusing adoptions and marriages to other women in the family tree would increase the odds, but the family game mechanics still confound me.

Any thoughts?

StoneCold
05-12-2007, 23:02
Maybe you guys need to go on a small conquering spree with all the young avatars coming of age, the game might just decide that you have enough avatar as of the moment so no spawning a marriage?

Ituralde
05-13-2007, 01:02
I was afraid this could happen. Seems like Austria will be a one-man show for some more time. :thumbsdown:

OverKnight
05-13-2007, 01:15
Maybe. . .Meckil is of age, we just have to get her hitched. Another option is to use some of the surplus Avatars we currently have as loaners. . .not an ideal solution but a good stop gap. The avatarless Austrian electors could use them for battles and such, and they could even be moved to the Austrian front. Then they could move on to proper Austrian avatars when they become available.

I know there has been some resistance to this, but it's a decent way to get the Austrians besides Leopold involved in battles.

Marriage offers seem to be rare, or at least in this situation, my entire Chancellorship I don't think I've had any.

Ituralde
05-13-2007, 01:40
Well truth to be told, if there don't appear more Austrian character soon I'm gonna repropose some earlier thinking and try to get some other avatars to join the House. I had von Mahren's children in mind, considering that their father as at least once ruled over Prague, a Austrian settlement.

For now, I'm gonna sit tight though, but some fellow Austrian avatars would be nice. :2thumbsup:

FactionHeir
05-13-2007, 02:04
econ:

Yes, I ended up getting it to work on my old machine. Finally got my new one today though and got that running too. No more camp map lag or siege lags even under high settings, night battle, rain and half the city burning :2thumbsup:


As for the family tree, the game tends to favor adoptions from left to right, so its likely most adoptions will end up under Hans or Henry's second son. Marriages will still happen relatively frequently as we have a female non princess in the tree as opposed to a bachelor general.

econ21
05-13-2007, 02:19
Good news about you and 1.2, factionheir. What should we do about the traits under 1.2? Are you going to have files we should use or do we stick with the vanilla game? We probably will be switching to 1.2 around next weekend, given how things look now.

On the Austrian avatars, when Chancellor, I will refuse adoptions and marriages except for Austrians. I would like us to take a few more settlements in Outremer other than just Adana and Acre, so maybe that will help as well.

FactionHeir
05-13-2007, 13:12
I got version 1.23 for 1.02 already done and waiting for when you take over as chancellor. There have been no changes in the game files between 1.02 leaked and 1.02 official accroding to my compare program so most things will stay the same as they have been.

Stig
05-13-2007, 16:16
How to Join the Game

In order to join the game and get started, all you need to do is post in the current OOC thread that you would like to join and select one of the four Ducal Houses. You can then start participating in as much or as little detail as you wish. You will always be able to find the location of the relevant game threads in the second post of the Imperial Library.
mmmm I'd love to join this PBM, but I have no clue what to do. I've read through the threads, but I think it's better you guys tell me what to do.

Dutch_guy
05-13-2007, 16:47
Well, assuming you've got the game and are willing to play, you should join a house. Either, Franconia, Swabia, Austria or Bavaria. After having decided which house to join, an avatar will be assigned to you once there's one available. Then the Diet and inter house discussions will start in the earnest - if you even want to participate in them that is.

:balloon2:

GeneralHankerchief
05-13-2007, 17:00
What was it? "Write an essay on the investiture controversy"? :p

Heh, just saw this. It was on materialism. :laugh4:

Welcome, Stig!

Generally, Houses represent a geographic direction of the Empire. Franconia is north, Bavaria south, Swabia west, and Austria east. You should quickly get an avatar in any house you join aside from Austria.

TinCow
05-13-2007, 17:04
Swabia and Franconia currently have unassigned avatars available, so they might be good choices. Personally, I would recommend Franconia, as they only have 3 active players at the moment. Plus, the Swabians have some recent 'baggage' that they haven't quite shaken off yet. The currently unassigned avatars are:

Ansehelm von Kastilien (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1540300&postcount=19) (Franconia)
Helmut von Hamburg (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383675&postcount=8) (Fanconia)
Elberhard (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383665&postcount=5) (Swabia)

Dutch_guy
05-13-2007, 19:21
I'd suggest taking Ansehelm, he's a bit lazy, but he has also managed to aquire all his father's good traits :wink:

:balloon2:

Stig
05-13-2007, 20:26
I'll go for Franconia then

Pharnakes
05-13-2007, 23:22
Umm, can I join as well please?

As swabia if that is alright.


P.S. if you do let me join, where do I gwt the 1.2 patch
I looked on the offical mtw2 site, under downloads, but I coludn't see any patches or anything.


Thx

Northnovas
05-13-2007, 23:49
Umm, can I join as well please?

As swabia if that is alright.


P.S. if you do let me join, where do I gwt the 1.2 patch
I looked on the offical mtw2 site, under downloads, but I coludn't see any patches or anything.


Thx

http://www.totalwar.com/

Under support MTW 2 update it has the links to the mirror sites just pick the one you prefer to use.

econ21
05-14-2007, 01:06
Welcome, Stig and Pharnakes - I'll sign you up with Ansehelm and Elberhard respectively (see Tincow's last post for details).

Please keep checking in on a daily basis - we will be having a Diet session sometime this week and that's when there is the most PBM activity in terms of speeches, votes etc.

Feel free to speak in character in the Diet, in the relevant House thread and in PMs to other players; there's also a stories thread if you want to create a backstory for your role.

Your first priority should probably be getting your character involved in a battle under the command of another player so he can be knighted and thus eligible for an independent command.

Northnovas
05-14-2007, 03:00
As for the family tree, the game tends to favor adoptions from left to right, so its likely most adoptions will end up under Hans or Henry's second son. Marriages will still happen relatively frequently as we have a female non princess in the tree as opposed to a bachelor general.

I think that is what I have notice in other SP games. I skipped ahead the last save just to see what would come up and the first proposal went to the first princess on the left of the tree. The irony was the proposed general surname von Austria. I know it's all random from the save but thought I would share that as I wait... may have to look at other options from the Chancellor if something doesn't develop.

OverKnight
05-14-2007, 06:19
48 hours have passed since Ignoramus was notified that he had a battle to fight. If I have not received a completed battle and an uploaded save by the time I get home (approx 1200 GMT, ~7 hours from this post) I will auto-resolve the battle and proceed into the next year so that we may start the Diet session.

Ignoramus
05-14-2007, 06:20
Sorry about the long delay, guys.

The battle has been fought, and Ulrich was victorious. I will upload the save now.

OverKnight
05-14-2007, 07:39
I see that the new save has been uploaded. Thanks Ignoramus, :2thumbsup: , do you have a casualty report for me?

Once I'm home from work (~6 hours) I will take the save and finish up my term.

Ignoramus
05-14-2007, 07:44
The battle was actually quite fierce. Ulrich lost 350 men. The Egyptians were atop a hill and charged me, which was quite nasty. I lost an entire unit of Armoured Sergeants.

OverKnight
05-14-2007, 08:03
Ouch, I was thinking of having you proceed to the ford to Aleppo to hold it against the Egyptians, but I might have you fall back on the main army coming up from Acre.

Ignoramus
05-14-2007, 08:05
You might want to consider that if Maximillian Mandorf dies, then any assault on Adana would have to be autocalculated, and considering that Antioch blocks the way...

OverKnight
05-14-2007, 08:21
An interesting observation, but I'm sure God will look out for Max. . .:laugh4:

We all thought Dietrich was gonna kick it after Nicaea, but he lasted until the Levant.

Even if the Egyptians besiege Adana, we'll have some time to relieve it. We also have a fleet available to ferry 6 units at a time to bypass Antioch. It's not ideal but I don't want to spread out our forces too much. Local reinforcements are in short supply and the Reich is a long way away.

Pharnakes
05-14-2007, 17:07
Hi, i downloaded and installed the update, but when I try to run the game it ctds halfway through loading.

I stuck -show_err on the end of the traget, and now when I try the game it closes instantly, with the error medieval II suffered a fatal error and wil now exit.

Anyone got any idea why this might be?

thx.

Stig
05-14-2007, 17:26
Uninstall the game, install again and don't update to 1.1, directly install 1.2

Stig
05-14-2007, 18:49
Right I've looked at the current save (which was strange as I have an unmodded 1.2 version). But I must say it's interesting.


Tho could someone please update the opening post of the Duchy of Franconia thread ... might help me getting into the game

Kagemusha
05-14-2007, 18:53
Consider it done.:yes:

Stig
05-14-2007, 19:17
Consider it done.:yes:
ah thanks m8

that clears things up

FactionHeir
05-14-2007, 19:26
Hi, i downloaded and installed the update, but when I try to run the game it ctds halfway through loading.

I stuck -show_err on the end of the traget, and now when I try the game it closes instantly, with the error medieval II suffered a fatal error and wil now exit.

Anyone got any idea why this might be?

thx.

I learned a lot of this the hard way, so follow each instruction carefully below.

1. Uninstall M2TW
2. Delete M2TW folder and all subfolders
3. Delete any registry entry that contains "medieval" or "sega"
4. Delete all files in your temp folder and your Windows/prefetch folder
5. Reboot
6. Install M2TW in a folder that is NOT the default folder
7. Delete the temp folder contents and reboot
8. Install patch 1.02 making sure you have at least 4 GB free on your hard drive, more (5-6GB), if your temp folder is on the same drive as your M2TW installation folder.
9. Reboot
10. Install latest version of KOTRfix
11. Start M2TW. It should work.

12. If it does not, unpack the character_traits file and make sure its a 1.02 version and not a 1.01 or 1.00 version (check for presence of the GoodSaboteur trait) If that's not present, repeat all steps above but make even more hard drive space. Its unlikely, but the only way really. If still not working, post again.

econ21
05-14-2007, 20:05
Just to clarify: the returning Constantinople to Byzantium idea is for largely for fun, rather than to benefit the Reich. If we want this game to spin out until we get to America, as I do, then we need to set the Reich "glorious achievement" type goals. If we just think in terms of conquest, it will be over too quick while simply defending our borders may be a little dull (Mongols & Timurids aside). Feel free to conjure up some "glorious achievements" in character.


I got version 1.23 for 1.02 already done and waiting for when you take over as chancellor.

If it is done, please could you upload it? I'll update the FAQ so everyone can install it onto the patched 1.2 game.


EDIT: I am not up to speed on the current status of the Household Armies. Please could the 4 Dukes/Stewards tell me who will be commanding their Household Army in the next 10 turns and make sure it has standing orders in the Chancellor and Governor's thread? Cheers.

Ituralde
05-14-2007, 20:39
I haven't heard from ArchdukeEvan since the last Diet session. If you're reading this please let me know of your status. For now, I'm gonna put you down with the inactive Austrian players.

FactionHeir
05-14-2007, 20:49
KOTRfix 1.23 can now be found at:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix123.rar


Btw, let me know when we eventually get Forlorn Hope units if you want them to have the 2 hp they ought to have.

StoneCold
05-14-2007, 21:06
Btw, you guys intends to snuff out that iman just outside of Acre after you defeated that Egyptian army nearby right? Or are you going to assassinate him?

FactionHeir
05-14-2007, 23:54
I was thinking of that when I loaded up the save. Can't encircle him with that egyptian army nearby as he'd just get moved into it or bumped behind it. Will have to wait for a while. He's 54 though, so won't last too long.

Ignoramus
05-15-2007, 00:29
It looks frightening around Antioch.

Oh, and when we switch over to 1.2, do we still use Medifix?

TinCow
05-15-2007, 02:19
The Library is mostly updated. The only things left are the Family Tree section and the various titles. I may or may not get to those tonight.

[edit] OK, basic family tree and kids info stuff is done. Only title left. Interesting to note, we have FIVE daughters waiting for marriage and SEVEN TO NINE males will come of age during the next term.

Warluster
05-15-2007, 07:20
Well if any charcters hits the bucket, then at least they get straight back into the game!

TevashSzat
05-15-2007, 11:36
I am gonna take the AP Chem test in like 2 hours and its my last one so i will be more active afterwards

Ignoramus
05-15-2007, 11:39
Good luck, Xdeathfire.

It looks like you'll be the new Duke of Swabia, so you'll be busier now.

econ21
05-15-2007, 12:18
Oh, and when we switch over to 1.2, do we still use Medifix?

We have switched over to 1.2 and we are using kotrfix1.3; see the updated FAQ for the link.

TinCow
05-15-2007, 12:19
As a heads-up, I will be on vacation from May 19th to the 26th. During this time I will probably not be logging on to the forums and will definitely not be able to fight any battles. If Max is still alive and gets into a battle, please autoresolve him. I don't mind at all if he dies in battle, he's an old geezer anyway.

TevashSzat
05-15-2007, 23:38
Well, I am finished with my exam and from the looks of it, alot has happened and it will take me a while to catch up on stuff.

OverKnight
05-16-2007, 01:17
My latest finger painting project:

https://img178.imageshack.us/img178/4733/hremapdg1.jpg

Purple = Swabia
Green = Franconia
Blue = Austria
Red = Bavaria

Edit: Bavaria is starting to look like a Gerrymandered congressional district. :laugh4:

TinCow
05-16-2007, 01:52
The Fightin' Bavaria!

https://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h238/mikejonze/pantone292/colbert.jpg

OverKnight
05-16-2007, 02:01
LOL

Ah yes the 3rd installment of the 4 part "Better know a Duchy" series.

Tell me Duke Otto, Kaiser Henry, great Emperor or the greatest Emperor?

StoneCold
05-16-2007, 13:33
Econ, who were you referring to as Lord Manfred??? You are confusing me here... :P I didn't know we had a Manfred.

econ21
05-16-2007, 14:09
Econ, who were you referring to as Lord Manfred??? You are confusing me here... :P I didn't know we had a Manfred.

:embarassed:

Sorry, I just know him as Max.

TinCow
05-16-2007, 14:12
People have been calling Max "Manfred" for a long time now, easily a month or two. I have no idea where it came from and assumed it was some Germanic nickname.

Stuperman
05-16-2007, 14:41
Swabia needs more land, but I sympathize with econ, if mersaille was given to Swabia, Bavaria would only have a sliver of a boarder with Sicily, the rest would HRE.

Any Swabian electors out there, Propose some anti-french legislation and I'll support it.

econ21
05-16-2007, 15:08
Any Swabian electors out there, Propose some anti-french legislation and I'll support it.

Bare in mind that we are under a Papal mission not to attack the French (for 7 turns, IIRC). If we do want to attack an enemy Catholic power, a "judo" type defence is usually the best way to go about it - use the enemy's strength against them and let them get excommunicated before going onto the offensive. That's how we took down Milan and Venice.

xdeathfire should note that he can set a standing order for the Swabian household army to conquer one neighbouring province this Diet. I'll maneouvre so as to be able to accomplish that after the Papal mission expires (or earlier if France gets itself excomm'd). Rheims seems the most defensible target for Swabia and is also very close to Paris.

TinCow
05-16-2007, 15:20
The Swabians (and anyone else for that matter) can also propose edicts that specifically require the conquest of certain provinces. No one should complain about their lack of land if they don't push for more in the Diet.

FactionHeir
05-16-2007, 15:48
I'd say if we are to expand on our western border at all, it ought to be to take Toulouse. Its a Citadel and will significantly weaken the French and allow us to train our high end troops.

StoneCold
05-16-2007, 16:23
I don't think you want to weaken the French... what's the fun of it if they just throw in basic forces... soon swabian will be complaining of boring fights over and over again against the same basic troops :P

FactionHeir
05-16-2007, 16:32
They do have Angers and Bordeaux though, and something in Spain from an OOC perspective to throw things at us, especially as Toulouse borders all those regions, giving us more interesting fights.

From an IC perspective, any Duchy would want to expand and consolidate its borders. I think Swabia borders mainly with cities to the French border instead of castles, which makes it vulnerable. Besides, this way the Bavarians can focus on the Milanese and Moors to the south instead of worrying about the French to their west, which is Swabian expansion zone ~:)

TinCow
05-16-2007, 16:54
Yes, it definitely seems to make sense for the Bavarians to deal with the islands and any African wars. I'm actually pretty pleased with how well the geographic expansion of the Houses has worked. I was one of the ones pushing for non-geographic territorial allocations and I'm glad GH didn't listen to us.

TinCow
05-16-2007, 17:50
Ituralde's (excellent) story reminds me of the Austrian avatar situation. Even though Meckil is available for marriage, there are 4 other daughters available for marriage and they are all to the left of her on the family tree. I think it's possible Meckil could go a long, long time without being married. Since we're in a Diet Session now, perhaps it would be good to start formally considering other options for the Austrians. Arnold will be of age this coming term, so that's one avatar, but Leo's getting old himself and there are several other players who need them. I think we need to poach a few from the Swabians or Franconians. There are two Mahren boys, two Mahren girls, and three Kasilien boys who will come of age next term. I think one of those two 'families' should attach themselves to the Austrians for all future generations. That would keep the familiy tree relatively organized while solving the Austrian avatar problem.

FactionHeir
05-16-2007, 18:08
We could also accept any (yes, any) avatar that wants to marry into a branch of the tree which already has excess numbers of avatars to try and get the females married off before they turn into spinsters which is worse than not having a well rounded avatar. Btw, the older a female gets, the older her suitors become too, so that is a big problem (i.e. shortlived avatars) although it can be changed in the files.

Stuperman
05-16-2007, 18:33
considering how many we have, I'm not sure if short lived generals would be that huge of a problem, but I agree with you.

Ituralde
05-16-2007, 20:49
Hm, I must say that I'm glad that somebody else for one picked up the avatar problem of Austria. :beam: I would have to lie if I said this is not something I have thought about in the past.

I have mentioned before that something along the lines of TinCows thinking would have been to my liking. The von Mahren family would be suitable as they already had contact with the House of Austria in the past. Since econ21 stated that Henry will send generals from other Houses to assist in the defense of Austria, maybe the eldest von Mahren son could be assigned this task. If no other Franconian avatar comes forth and also if Kagemusha as the boys father has no objections one of the Austrian Electors could take that avatar. This is of course if Northnovas would be willing to do this. The rest of it should develop in character though. This should give a nice base from where to operate without transfering whole branches of the family tree somewhere else OOC.

What do you think about it, especially the parties involved?

I had hope that with Meckil and Arnold I would get at least enough avatars for my two Austrian comrade, but with it seems like the game deems the number of characters high enough, which even makes me fear for children for Arnold or Meckil. So the above would also have future developments in mind.

econ21
05-16-2007, 21:18
Anybody want to download the savegame and press end turn 10 times? Don't tell us anything that happens, just report what happens if you reject all new avatars except Austrians. I'd do it, but it is just I think as Chancellor it would really spoil my reign.

I've resisted deviating from the family tree branch = House idea in the past, but like most folk, I am getting frustrated by this long dry spell for Austria.

I think AussieGiant and Northnovas should have the final say in all this, as we are essentially looking for avatars for them.

TinCow
05-16-2007, 22:24
If no one else has, I will do it when I get home in about an hour.

econ21
05-16-2007, 23:34
Thanks, TinCow. :2thumbsup:

I want to crack on with my first turn once the Diet has finished tomorrow, as I don't think the voting will affect what happens in the first turn. If those players who have not already done so could post build queues/household army orders in the next 24 hours, it would be appreciated. :bow:

TevashSzat
05-16-2007, 23:58
I'll try to post orders relatively quickly, but can you remind me which cities am I responsible for the building order for??

Northnovas
05-17-2007, 00:00
Okay, I did it I went into the future. I will not divulge what I saw but the Austrian avatar does not look good. I have tried this a couple times this week with almost the same results.
This time I went 10 turns and it took awhile on turn 7 and 9 the offers went to Judda der Stoltze. The family tree is quirky and I think Meckil will end up a spinster.
It's with mix regret that I may have to go outside the family line if I want more involvement. AG will get Arnold so I think I may have to accept an avatar from another house.
There have been excellent stories and I was trying to think IC for a nice storyline. I think we can figure something out.
If TC want to try the 10 turns and see what he gets I know my game turns have been different from what ended up happening. I had econ done in by the Inquisitor he had in his storyline.
I am open to anything I was trying to keep it in the family but if that is not possible we will have to go with the other options available.

econ21
05-17-2007, 00:02
I'll try to post orders relatively quickly, but can you remind me which cities am I responsible for the building order for??

The capital of Swabia, Staufen, is yours by right of leading the House.

You should also post one for Metz unless you plan to make Ulrich or Elberhard its Count.

With the Household Army, I'd like to know its commander (currently you) and its rough location, as well as whether you want to use it to conquer a neighbouring province. The FAQ in the first post to this thread includes the ammendment that established household armies - it will have more details if you need them.

TevashSzat
05-17-2007, 00:05
I just posted some orders for the Swabian army and I guess I will make Ulrich the Count of Metz. I'll post build orders for Staufen in a little bit.

TinCow
05-17-2007, 00:11
I did the 10 turns thing too and I got the exact same results as Northnovas: two offers for Judda der Stoltze, who is also the farthest left of all the daughters on the family tree. I think that unless we massively expand our provinces in very short order (which I think none of us wants) Meckil will never get a marriage offer. I think we will have to give the Austrians some avatars from elsewhere on the family tree.

If the game plays out in reality like it did in my 10 turns, you're in for an interesting Chancellorship econ21.

econ21
05-17-2007, 00:20
This time I went 10 turns and it took awhile on turn 7 and 9 the offers went to Judda der Stoltze.

I think your taking Judda's husband might be the best way forward. He would be rather a blank slate and so could be an Austrian (as opposed to our current spare, young Hamburg, who is Franconian by blood). European custom is that the wife moves into the husband's family rather than vice versa, so there would be nothing odd about Judda's husband being an Austria.

Is AussieGiant content to wait for Arnold? I don't know off-hand how long that will be.


I had econ done in by the Inquisitor he had in his storyline.

:scared:

Don't start. Me and inquisitors is already like Captain Hook and crocodiles.

:croc:

AussieGiant
05-17-2007, 01:48
Hi Guy's,

The situation with the Austrian avatars seems grim for sure.

I'm certainly going to wait for Arnold econ. I'm about to ask Ituralde if I can start some "tie-ins" with my semi crazy Austrian Merchant character I've been using for the last few months.

Northnovas it seems your going to have to go and poach another avatar and bring him into the House.

TinCow
05-17-2007, 02:07
I've gotta say I don't think giving Judda der Stoltze's husband to Austria is going to solve the problem. Neither the new avatar nor Arnold will have thier own kids any time soon, and even when they do it will take a full 3 Chancellorship terms for them to come of age. If we just move Judda der Stoltze's husband over, we'll have to be revisting this problem every single month till the end of the game. Moving over an entire family is a far better solution as it will provide for more avatars down the line, so that we can take care of this problem for good and not have to revisit it again.

I still think the von Mahren family makes the most sense. They have 4 underage kids and they are also located directly next to the Austrians on the family tree. From an organizational standpoint, they are the best choice. I am not suggesting that Jonas von Mahren himself move over, just his kids and all of their descendants. That still leaves the von Hamburgs and the von Kastiliens in Franconia, two families that are similarly blessed with many children.

If it helps, I can even manually edit the image of the family tree in the Library so that it shows the von Mahrens coming from Leopold's line.

AussieGiant
05-17-2007, 02:24
Good call TC I agree.

Having to go back to it repeatedly is not a great idea.

FactionHeir
05-17-2007, 02:36
Has any of you tried accepting the husband for Judda and then checked whether any offers were made for Meckil as I suggested?

OverKnight
05-17-2007, 03:05
I agree with TC's and Ituralde's plan, this would give all the houses adequate replacement avatars. The von Mahrens do have a history of involvement with Austria and they are next to them on the tree. I think there are enough IC reasons to meet an OOC need.

It's about as an elegant a solution as we're going to get at this phase.

Northnovas
05-17-2007, 03:23
Has any of you tried accepting the husband for Judda and then checked whether any offers were made for Meckil as I suggested?

I did it again. Maybe I can set up a fortune teller booth for those that want to know the future. On turn 6 their was suitor for Judda and turn 7 a suitor for Meckil.

I would like to wait a few turns and see if this will play out for the Chancellor. If not then TC suggestion to move the one family over would make the most sense.

AussieGiant
05-17-2007, 05:04
So if what Northnovas says happens in our game then we can have Meckil take the turn 7 proposal. This could do the trick.

econ21
05-17-2007, 08:52
Based on what I'm hearing, I will accept any husband for Judda and keep my fingers crossed for Meckil. Northnovas can be in the driving seat on this - if he wants to, he can take Judda's husband or one of Jonas's kids at any time.

A related issue is whether we intend to recruit more players for this PBM as we get more avatars? If so, then the case for moving the von Mahren line to Austria, as TC suggested, is very strong. My inclination is to worry about that at the next Diet, when presumably we will have more than one spare avatar and thus can potentially meet the demand from new players.

EDIT: On other matters, I need to hear from Dutch_guy about his orders for the Franconian Household Army.

Kagemusha
05-17-2007, 09:10
Ituralde.I guess this means we have a little story line to build if you will adopt my "first born". I think this allows us to build a little IC twist.:yes:
EDIT: Wouldnt one possible scenario could be that someone of the Austrians takes Jonas Von Mahren from me,so that the whole line moves to Austria. We still have Hedewigis Von Saxony not married from the second Franconian generation and i could take the avatar,who ever marries her?

Ituralde
05-17-2007, 09:34
Either way I think it's best to at least attempt an IC explanation for all of this. Presumably with you Kagemusha or maybe even go with von Mahren all the way. After all, if you look at it from a geographical standpoint the country of Mahren should fall under the government of Austria, since we're in command of Prague.

I also have to agree with TinCow that in light of expanding the House of Austria to more than three players with avatars, a whole line would be needed to switch over.

As far as the Judda problem goes, this would still only net one avatar and I also like the neatness that the von Mahren line directly borders the House of Austria. :2thumbsup:

Kagemusha
05-17-2007, 09:40
I think you are right.Maybe i should just move to Austria along my whole "family". This would give Austria quickly lot of available avatars.I think you,me and Dutch_guy could create a twist to make that happend in coordination with the story.:smash:

StoneCold
05-17-2007, 10:01
If I remember correctly there was a brief period where Jonas was attached to Austria to guard her northern borders from the Poles, but no military exchange came out of that. Maybe use that as a first contact between him and Leopold?