[II] Faction list draft

[alpaca]

Hey guys, as promised here's a first draft for a faction list for Italia Invictus (btw the [II] tag will signify anything that has to do with our Italy scenario)

The Katepanate of Italy (Byzantium)

The Sicilian Emirates <- these may be split up depending on how it plays
The Zirids

The Normans (emerging)
The Kingdom of Croatia
The Kingdom of Burgundy
The Principality of Salerno
The Patriarchate of Aquileia
The Principality of Capua
The Duchy of Benevento
The Patrimonium Petri
The Republic of Venice
The Republic of Pisa
The house of Luxemburg (will control Verona)
The house of Este (or the Welfs, will control the Tuscany)
The Ottonians (basically the Holy Roman Empire, they'll control a lot of land)
The house of Hohenstaufen (or the Waiblinger, if we put them in it'll be for a Guelphs and Ghibellines type of meta-game and they'd be emergent)


Note that this is both only a first draft and the names will probably change a bit.
There might be a few more factions that should be added, but we'll see about that later (the Pentapolis for example comes to mind)

We decided to adapt Re Berengario I's idea of representing dynasties instead of "countries" which is why you see factions like Este or Luxemburg here.
If you have any further suggestions, please post them, but only if you can back them up with good reasons for adding them (and "I like them" is not a good reason).

Until next time

alpaca

[Sahran]

Are you sure the Normans should be unplayable?

[alpaca]

I didn't say they are unplayable :inquisitive:

[fenir]

representing dynasties instead of "countries"


Hmmm quite difficult. As with the House of Welf, the Senior line became more powerful and of a higher rank than the Elder line.
Became moot when the elder line died out tho.

Generally, to represent accurately the house accesendancy, you would simply call the members by the senoir title of the oldest line.

Hence the Welf Este, elder line, Dukes of Bavaria.
Senoir line I think is Wolfenbuttel. Can't remember if they were grafen or herzog.

Still nice idea. be interested to see how you implement it.

fenir

[Warluster]

Pretty good faction line up, I shall be playng this one!

[aleh]

Depending on your starting date, have the Aghlabids as the actual Emirate of Sicily, with the Kalbid dynasty as an important emerging faction later on?

Edit: Ok, I checked the starting date. So, have the Kalbid Dynasty(you're going by dynasties instead of actual kingdoms right?). With the Zirids being the second Muslim faction and a strong rebel presence?

[alpaca]

Depending on your starting date, have the Aghlabids as the actual Emirate of Sicily, with the Kalbid dynasty as an important emerging faction later on?

Edit: Ok, I checked the starting date. So, have the Kalbid Dynasty(you're going by dynasties instead of actual kingdoms right?). With the Zirids being the second Muslim faction and a strong rebel presence?
Yes we're going with dynasties.
Since you seem to know a lot about the area: Would it be possible to get me a rough map of Sicily to see which faction should control which areas (can be hand-drawn ~;) )?

[aleh]

Val di Mazara(Kalbid Dynasty)
-----------------
Palermo(capital)(al-Akhal, ruler)
https://img257.imageshack.us/img257/856/kalbidterritoryyo3.th.jpg (https://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kalbidterritoryyo3.jpg)
https://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3264/divisionofsicilywu0.th.jpg (https://img404.imageshack.us/my.php?image=divisionofsicilywu0.jpg)
https://img501.imageshack.us/img501/5238/valdimazarademonenotoso3.th.png (https://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=valdimazarademonenotoso3.png)

Val di Noto(Rebels I'd recommend, or some sort of Muslim faction, like the Emirate of Syracuse perhaps?)
------------------
Syracuse(at-Tumnah family rules?)
https://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3264/divisionofsicilywu0.th.jpg (https://img404.imageshack.us/my.php?image=divisionofsicilywu0.jpg)
https://img501.imageshack.us/img501/5238/valdimazarademonenotoso3.th.png (https://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=valdimazarademonenotoso3.png)

Val Demone(Rebels)
------------------

https://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3264/divisionofsicilywu0.th.jpg (https://img404.imageshack.us/my.php?image=divisionofsicilywu0.jpg)
https://img501.imageshack.us/img501/5238/valdimazarademonenotoso3.th.png (https://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=valdimazarademonenotoso3.png)

Why are the Zirids included by the way, I thought by the last portion of the 900s, they'd lost actual control of Sicily? Also, if you want to go with a second Muslim faction, I'd recommend one based around Syracuse(Emirate of Syracuse/Tumnah Dynasty?). There isn't much evidence for there being one until later in the century, so it could be one that emerges later on in the 1030s-60s that centres around Syracuse and Catania(if it's possible code-wise?). If that's not possible, then I guess it depends on whether or not you want Sicily to have just one 'native' faction and be harder or what. In that case, make it a very weak Emirate? Would make sense given that around the first quarter of the 1000s, there was more and more conflict in that area.

Hope that helps, that's the best I could do, though I think it's pretty accurate.

P.S. Here's one image that (you probably checked, but still) might help you guys.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Italy_1000_AD.svg

Edit: Nevermind, I just saw that you included parts of Africa in your map.

2nd Edit: I can understand not having one specific faction controlling all of Sardinia. But, why not have one of the 4 kingdoms represented. Like for example the Giudicati of Arborea? I know they were for the most part under Genoese or Pisan influence, but if there's a faction slot to appear, might as well make that big of a place contain something, right?

[alpaca]

Thanks for the suggestions.
I don't know about a Sardinian faction, I'm not even sure how many provinces we should have on Sardinia and Corsica, so we'll probably have a look at that later.
For now we're not planning to have two muslim factions in Sicily, but it's possible one will be added at some stage.

[aleh]

Well, that's easy for Sardinia, just divide into the four historic giudicati(kingdoms), Cagliari, Loguduro, Agugliastri(yes, it'd be lated absorbed by Cagliari, but I don't think it was by the start date), Arborea and Gallura. As for actual coded provinces, well, I don't know, how many slots do you have to spare? Either way, I think Cagliari(town and province) would be under Pisan control given that they'd just reconquered the place from the Saracens and began to rebuild it/repopulate it, actually it happened in exactly 1017 I believe.

[alpaca]

Well, that's easy for Sardinia, just divide into the four historic giudicati(kingdoms), Cagliari, Loguduro, Agugliastri(yes, it'd be lated absorbed by Cagliari, but I don't think it was by the start date), Arborea and Gallura. As for actual coded provinces, well, I don't know, how many slots do you have to spare? Either way, I think Cagliari(town and province) would be under Pisan control given that they'd just reconquered the place from the Saracens and began to rebuild it/repopulate it, actually it happened in exactly 1017 I believe.
The slots aren't the problem, I just don't want to have too many provinces because more provinces means more work, and more pathfinding to be done which leads to longer AI turns.
For Sardinia I don't feel we should have more than two provinces or it'll be over-represented compared to other areas of the map.

[Hross af Guttenburg]

The problem with the faction list is, as with previous suggestions and other related mods, that the action is set around oone or two very concentrated areas. I admit that 'England' 'Yugoslavia' and 'Germany' do get a look in but without proper balance and dynamics, for the most part the game is based around the Mediterrenean and Italy as its heart. Scandinavia and Russia as well as the more eastern areas are completed left out.

I think the idea of rebels and dynasties as the playable factions is one good solution to all the arguing about faction slots that seems inevitable these days. The suggested fations are rather good in themselves, however the basic need for the TW game to enable the player to relive the rivalries of ancient kingdoms cannot be justly represented by grey rebel opponents, specific factions should be playable in specific areas to represent the empires of those areas. To have rebels represent a huge and powerful empire is frankly not fun. To be able to gain a coat of arms and power over a region or kingdom when that kingdom only existed as a grey faction is hardly what the TW engine is made for.

Unless you find a way to make your grey factions/rebels/minor factions a little more dynamic and interesting to meet on the campaign map (since they are unplayable) then this extraordinary and excellent mod will fall short of its aim.

[alpaca]

The problem with the faction list is, as with previous suggestions and other related mods, that the action is set around oone or two very concentrated areas. I admit that 'England' 'Yugoslavia' and 'Germany' do get a look in but without proper balance and dynamics, for the most part the game is based around the Mediterrenean and Italy as its heart. Scandinavia and Russia as well as the more eastern areas are completed left out.

I think the idea of rebels and dynasties as the playable factions is one good solution to all the arguing about faction slots that seems inevitable these days. The suggested fations are rather good in themselves, however the basic need for the TW game to enable the player to relive the rivalries of ancient kingdoms cannot be justly represented by grey rebel opponents, specific factions should be playable in specific areas to represent the empires of those areas. To have rebels represent a huge and powerful empire is frankly not fun. To be able to gain a coat of arms and power over a region or kingdom when that kingdom only existed as a grey faction is hardly what the TW engine is made for.

Unless you find a way to make your grey factions/rebels/minor factions a little more dynamic and interesting to meet on the campaign map (since they are unplayable) then this extraordinary and excellent mod will fall short of its aim.
Keep in mind that this is the faction list for Italia Invicta. The one for Anno Domini isn't decided upon yet (although the factions in 0.93 will probably be in the later versions, too)

[Vazul's Ghost]

Hi this mod looks great, I loved Anno Domini and would like to make a suggestion for II. I noticed you had the kingdom of croatia as a faction, and would like to know if you will choose to simulate Hungary's influence over the kingdom from the late 11th and early 12th century at all. I believe it is somethng you should consider for the sake of historical accuracy as Hungary held great sway over Croatia's affairs, and would have duristiction over the area until 1918. True, Croatia did enjoy a fluctuating level of autonamy, but the land was ruled by the Hungarian kings, and the power of the nobles of Croatia was often determined by the Hungarian royalty, as is evident in the Subic and Babonic princes. Perhaps you could include Hungary, or Arpadok forces, as an emerging faction, like a horde led by Prince Vilmos using byzantine troops in the late 11th century, or by the hungarian forces of Coloman in the early 12th century. If you wish to simulate dynastic factions you could call the horde faction the Arpads or Arpadhazi, and then repeat the process int the 14th century with Angevin forces. I believe this would not only add diversity to the flow of the game, (nothing stirs the political climate then the emergence of a new faction), keep historical accuracy, but still allow allow for a varied flow of history (let players simulate what would have happened if croatia remained independent).
Hope it attracts youre curiosity.

[alpaca]

Hi this mod looks great, I loved Anno Domini and would like to make a suggestion for II. I noticed you had the kingdom of croatia as a faction, and would like to know if you will choose to simulate Hungary's influence over the kingdom from the late 11th and early 12th century at all. I believe it is somethng you should consider for the sake of historical accuracy as Hungary held great sway over Croatia's affairs, and would have duristiction over the area until 1918. True, Croatia did enjoy a fluctuating level of autonamy, but the land was ruled by the Hungarian kings, and the power of the nobles of Croatia was often determined by the Hungarian royalty, as is evident in the Subic and Babonic princes. Perhaps you could include Hungary, or Arpadok forces, as an emerging faction, like a horde led by Prince Vilmos using byzantine troops in the late 11th century, or by the hungarian forces of Coloman in the early 12th century. If you wish to simulate dynastic factions you could call the horde faction the Arpads or Arpadhazi, and then repeat the process int the 14th century with Angevin forces. I believe this would not only add diversity to the flow of the game, (nothing stirs the political climate then the emergence of a new faction), keep historical accuracy, but still allow allow for a varied flow of history (let players simulate what would have happened if croatia remained independent).
Hope it attracts youre curiosity.
Thanks for the suggestion. We'll be considering it after the first release, together with a few other candidates for emerging factions.
For the first beta, we will concentrate on the factions which are on the map right from the start (and which are, therefore, playable).
Also keep in mind that the game starts in 1017 so you'll have some 85 years before the Hungarian influence really starts to factor in largely.

[Vazul's Ghost]

Great :2thumbsup: its good to know that its being taken into account for later versions.

[alpaca]

Great :2thumbsup: its good to know that its being taken into account for later versions.
Taking it into account does not necessarily mean they're in though, just that we'll consider things ~;)