castle siege

[yeahme]

I have some questions I think that are important to castle siege.

The defenders: Is it possible to have men (archers) on top of towers or walk around on top of the wall? And of course have special soliders pour hot oil (or whatever they use) on the enemy below?

The attackers: besides the siege weapon we see in the screen shots are there any other way to get inside the castle. What about ladders, and battering rams?

Overall: I have yet seen a castle with a gate. What about surrounding water and the bridge gate. Ok forget about the water... maybe for the expansion pack... but there are gotta be gates right?

Am I asking too much?

[Kraellin]

from what little we can ascertain, rumors, previews, screenshots, and so forth, it doesnt look like it's going to have full scale castle sieges and defense. thus, no men on the walls. someone posted something, (i think it came from an interview), about men in towers, but it didnt say how they got there. maybe you just buy a tower and the men are already in it.

i can sorta see why they're not doing, (if i'm correct), men on the walls. with the way the engine works and the sprites and all those men in a group, it would be difficult getting a 60 man unit to climb some stairs and man the battlements. you'd most likely end up with men scattered all over the place from that one unit.

but, CA has surprised me before, so maybe they will have something. i wouldnt get my hopes up for a full scale Stronghold type castle defense and attack though. i dont think this is where they're going to concentrate their current efforts.

K.


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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

[Grim]

I've read exactle what Kraellin said and your point about the men in the tower makes sense.

I think that castle assault will be most basic; defender inside castle waiting for the attacker to smash a wall so he can get in. It will be a race against the clock to see if you can destroy enough of a wall so you can kill all of what's inside in the time alloted.
The more upgrade on a castle the more impregnable it is (Le Krac). The same with all the siege engine upgrades.

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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes canons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my canons)
-Trad. libre

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

I wonder if they will make the castles in certain provinces look like the ones that were actually there. Like Crac de Chevaliers. That would be tough to get inside.

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"

[Hirosito]

well the defensive ranged weapons will be manned i think. also i heard something about platforms so maybe 60 archers can go up on those

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[Leet Eriksson]

i hope them CA add flamers that throw balls of greek fire into enemy encampents and can seriously damage wooden fortifcation especially good for grouped units too!one more thing i hope they add siege ships they kick ass!

[ShadesWolf]

This part of the game really interests me

As an attacker the use of siege weapons catapults and then cannons later.

As an defender the ability to be able to mod the castle, put defensive items up (hopefully)

Proper siege warfare will be great, Shogun was totally cr** at this.

Medieval should be great.

[Choco]

Well I have been playing Stronghold and I don't see why MTW shoudln't be at least as good in this game handling sieges.

More than a technical problem the question here is how to manage sieges such that they will be a balanced attacker-defender feature with no loopholes.

[Leet Eriksson]

look gere is a simple way to succefully kick the crap outta an islamic and crusader castle(i dunno about byzantine though):

First attacking an Islamic castle:Just make sure your seige weaposn are relatively in a safe area and guard them properly after the saracens can't wait any longer send in your cavalry to trample them and do damage and keep those archers firing just incase.when all are dead send in some cavalry or troops and let them polish the castle.

attacking a crusader(european castle):Wait for the enemy and put siege in a relatively safe area just as above and when the crusaders can't wait any longer let them have it with camels plus archer support once the castle is breached let the cavalry do the mopping.

when attacking an english castle:tough luck there is no chance since longbowmen are plain anti everything seige ain't working cuase them bricks won't fall.

when attacking a french castle:the easiest one just wait until the french knights kill everyone in their army by trampling them and unleash some longbows to finish em.

when going against a mohad battle mosque:just unmount your soldiers from their cavalry wipe their feet and politely enter and greet and you'll wonder why is the mosque spitting infantry with white skin poeple but arabic uniform...

when goin against turkish castles:tch no chance again you gotta recruit lawrence of arabia he alone can wipe out the turkish single handedly.

ok thats all for now my next post will be about how to kill french knights with longbowmen.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Do not expect a LotR2 type castle seige in 3d/isometric view. The game engine is not designed to handle such a thing. Most likely, expect to see EXTREMELY slow siege units (with very long range) vs a besieged castle and its defenders. Current Shogun castle sieges are lacking due to the single point of entry and no ability to tear down the remaining walls. The siege machinery will take out walls, thus enabling some troops to avoid fortified access routes. This will cause the defender to sortie when siege machinery is on the field, in an attempt to cause havoc and disruption long enough to destroy the danger. Then its a quick sprint back to the castle.

The major questions are going to be things like moats, wall building design, construction material, and the types of siege engines available. Towers, catapults, battering rams, bridgers, tunnelers, etc?

Also - a note about english longbowmen - take a look at the historical size and range of the Samurai great bow - its comparable in range, rate of fire and penetration power to the Longbow. I truly hope they remember this, and don't give it too great a range. To be honest though, I have seen what CA can do - and overall they are very good at keeping unit balance.

Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"ARG when I'm Happy, ARG when I'm Sad, ARG when I'm good or bad. ARG!"
"ARG to port! ARG to starboard! Arg from stem to stern! ARG!"

[Nelson]

Choco, in Stronghold men quickly tear down walls all by themselves. You never need engines or mines to breach a wall. Unlike an American Express card, you can leave the siege train at home. I certainly hope M:TW doesn't handles sieges like THAT!

[Siena]

I hope, that castle siege will not become just another routine chore:
"bring catapults to range, fire at the fall until it breaks, attack the gap with army"

That would be excactly same siege like in STW, except that you will have to wait till you brake the wall.

I hope, that defenders will be able to do some damage while walls are being broken.

BSM_Skkzarg, usually you attack castle when you have many more troops, so defenders attempt to destroy siege engines would be suicide.

[Leet Eriksson]

its all about the sige weapons just keep guarding them until the enemy walls are crap then attack so simple.

[Tenchimuyo]

A interesting question is that in case an defending army leaves their castle to fight the invaders. Will the general be able to decide to keep some men in defence or bring out all soldiers? Therefore, this would offer the invaders a choice to whether go around the defenders to take an undefended castle as so to cause the defenders' a dramatic decrease in morale, or just fight the defenders in the open.

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A great warrior rarely reveal his true skills....

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

If i read the previews correctly:

1) Defenders will be able to use their own siege/anti-siege weapons/units from towers built (upgrades)(but no mention from walls).

2) Upgraded you will have inner walls of the castle itself AND outer walls ringing around the village (wooden palissade or rock/brick).

3)Siege machines will work their destruction in some cases quite slowly (against Rock) giving time for the defender to bring re-inforcements to break the siege.

4) Because of the Advantages of building (and most of all-upgrading) castles at strategic chokepoints, they will be quite costly and time consuming.

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Yes the camel sprites do look good, hope they sound good also...

[yeahme]

I just hope that CA will do a good job on this. Unlike Shogun, which I think it's the worst part of the game, a good and castle siege can really add a new dimension to the realtime battles.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Sienna,

I disagree. Realize, you can't just line up all your catapults next to each other and bombard. You have to remain spread, or else you increase your chances of becoming the target of anti-siege weaponry. And since a single catapult isnt going to be sufficient to create a breach in time (before a siege battle would end), your going to need multiple units. So, your gonna have to spread them out. This means that your army is going to have to spread to cover them. Guess what - that manpower advantage you just had - went to nothing...
The defender can concentrate his forces, sortie and hit a small group of your units, thrash them and the siege engine they guard, and escape back to the safety of the walls before you can pin and crush them - if your not careful. Its not a simple thing to siege and enemy. In fact - I would like to see sieges set up like the one historical battle against the Ikko-Ikki - where if too many escape you lose. Change it a bit to where if a unit escapes, they can bring in the entire army from a neighboring province.....

Its an idea. I don't know exactly how this(sieges) will be done - but I have confidence enough in CA to trust that it will not be boring. If it was - they would not make the deal out of it they have.

And I have to disagree on your assesment that castle sieges are the "most boring" part of S:TW/WE/MI. That title I personally reserve for the diplomacy model....

Qapla!


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BSM_Skkzarg
"ARG when I'm Happy, ARG when I'm Sad, ARG when I'm good or bad. ARG!"
"ARG to port! ARG to starboard! Arg from stem to stern! ARG!"

[Siena]

ok, I did not know about existence of "anti-siege" weapons.

[Leet Eriksson]

did you wonder why constantinople did'nt fall even though the arabs mounted a big organised army with naval ships and sieges!All was for nothing when we relized constantinople had another wall just behind the original!btw we retreated due to greek fire the best antisiege weapon in the byznatines arsenal(it wrecked all the mongonels and siege towers and battering rams were useless becuase the arabs can't reach the walls in time they would be burnt under this spectacular weapon).Ships did'nt do any good harpoons seemed useless against the walls too.

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

So how did Byzantium/Constantinople finally fall then, if they had a near impregnable city. Didnt one of the crusades go horribly wrong, and the crusaders ended up sacking the city? Or am i talking rubbish again http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

keep in mind that the turks brought with them grand cannons and a bigger than usual fleet and a biiiiig force of janisseries and cavalry and don't forget the wall was crumbling and the empire was no more than a small peaice of land and disorganised and etc etc etc.also the crusaders did do something stupid like sacking the city and no your not talking rubbish and if constantinople had survived i doubt the USA would ahve existed and i doubt the spanish would beat al mohad and i doubt the turks can conquer the mamelukes and i doubt the machine gun will be ever created and so on and i think i'm the one talking rubbish so i gotta stop hehehe http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[sunray]

Hi,

I'm new around here, but I have been playing Shogun for some time now, and very keenly following the development of Medieval since we first got word about it.

Regarding Castle seiges. I am really looking forward to them. CA have done a really good job with the Total War series, but to have effective and realistic castle seiges they really do need to have troops able to be stationed on the walls. Otherwise we are missing out on half the tactical fun of assaulting a castle.

And besides, to compete with other similar games they need to include this feature. I have also been following the development of "Praetorians" (by Pyro Studios)as well. Their screenshots feature many battles being carried out on the walls of fortresses. If one can do it, the others better make sure that they do it also.

[yeahme]

Wow! Those screen shots of Praetorians' sieges sure look fun! Graphic wise, I prefer MTW, but the fun factor of sieges look like Praetorians has it. Let's keep our hopes up and let the free market add some heat to CA!

[Leet Eriksson]

preatorians definitly look good but does not inetrest me as much as MTW does.btw i think i got promoted at least a samurai is better than an ashigaru.that helmet looks goofy hehehe http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Siena]

Lithuanian castles:
http://www.geocities.com/imantas2/pilys/murines-en.htm

[Leet Eriksson]

Here is a good link aout islamic castles(of local handmade castles not the ones the scummy crusaders left we removed them stone after stone heheheh):
http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Architecture/Architecture_Castles_&_Hom.html

Look at the greatness of castles made out of mud and bricks they defenitly hold off any attacks made by infantry but seige weaponry would be a threat hehehehe http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif btw i suggest to visit shadewolf's site for more info on european castles.