Battle during the night?

[Raf]

In shogun, you can't have a fight during the night.
But i think this could have a good meaning during war
(ambush, camp attack, vicious and cruel warlord, etc).

I know that almost every battle begin and finish when the sun is still shining.
But it is a good idea to incorporate, don't you think(only for campagn mode)?

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Impossible n'est pas français.
Napoleon Bonaparte

[theforce]

I raised that up some months ago. It would be very cool if there was a dynamic time and real reflections just like Ground Control with day and night cycle. It would be very cool for battles to last a long time and offourse during the night.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.

[evilc]

doesnt it get quite dark at night?

[james]

there actually should be night battles IMO.
think about it,engaging under the cover of darkness*hint hint*!!

[theforce]

Well yes but the moon could offer some nice lighting effects. Also imagine the tactical flexibility. I mean someone makes the battle to last long and last until night when his BN gain the upper hand or how about a cav rush at night. It would be so cool http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.

[Leet Eriksson]

the moon shining on an oasis is gonna rock!Arabian Nights!but not every battle have ensued in the morning one battle of the muslims against the byz ensued in the night:Khalid bin alWaleed who never lost a battle in his life was going to confront the byzantine when he discovered they outnumber him 2-20(muslims 20000-byz(with allies) 200000)khalid thought if he fought during day he wold probably lose so he waited during night at night he made every solider light up a torch and march towards the camp the byz general saw the torchs and feared that a HUGE islamic army is advancing so he called for his troops to retreat after khalid took over the territory he returned but not as a hero!but as a coward!!of course the prophet mohammed cleared it up bu saying any clever general that did the same is not a coward(or something like that it was really different in arabic).

[theforce]

Hmmm the Byzantines had no allies to speak of. They had a shitload of enemies though since they all wanted their provinces. Anyway l know that the Arabs outnumbered the Byzantines almost all the time and the Arabs lost most of the times.
The moon on the oasis surely will look amazing. But since Shogun graphics aren't so nice maybe they will have problems http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.

[Leet Eriksson]

mind you we pushed the byzantines back many times how did we lose many times particularily?the byzantines usually outnumber the arabs or i presume our historians are wrong?

[theforce]

Hmmmm. As far as l know the Arabs were the ones who attacked and at first got a lot of provinces and they were attacking each year against Byzantium. They were defeated by emperor Leo III.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

interesting. West vs East coming up everyone take cover.

Batten down the hatches and launch those torpedoes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

yes we are defeated many times when attacking constantinople becuase of its heavy defnces but a lot of battles were won by arabs the only time they did defeat the arabs when they took over halab from the hamdans but later the arabs retrieved it back.

[theforce]

Mind faisal that at the same time Byzantines had to protect their provinces against Bulgarians and other barbarian tribes.
Not Nebu this ain't a West-East flame war. We are just saying history http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.

[Leet Eriksson]

i see...

[Hirosito]

i would hardly describe bulgarians as barbarians thank you very much

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[theforce]

"I see" is copywrited by me mate http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Anyway mind me mate l will just do anythign for a flame war to begin http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif...not that is not true!!!
Anyway the Arabs should had drawn the Byzantines deep in their provinces where they had the upper hand. Arabs did the mistake to attack the very well fortifed city Constantinople. Also add that the Byzantines had liquid fire a primite form of flame thrower made by "Kalinikos", don't know the name in English though.
Arabs lost many men at those attempts. The Turks adopted a wiser tactic but then again the Byzantium by then was badly ruled after the Crusaders took the city so they were very weak.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.


[This message has been edited by theforce (edited 03-04-2002).]

[theforce]

Bulgarians and other barbaric tribes.
NOT barbaric tribes like Bulgarians.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif


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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.

[Kraellin]

the reason night attacks are a bad idea is that the enemy isnt the only one handicapped. no sane general is going to try a massive night battle for the simple reason of confusion to HIS forces. remember, this is feudal japan, not WWIII. there arent any radios to coordinate attacks, no flares, no night vision goggles, etc. a general trying to signal or communicate or even see so as to direct is going to have a very difficult time, not to mention trying to ride a horse at night and having it fall into a gully or something. it just wasnt done.

now, a night raid by a small force, like one bn unit, shld be possible. there is only a small unit to keep track of and the unit commander is directly with his men, so this is much more do-able and believable. hit and run. night raids. sure, why not.

K.


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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

[Mojo Jojo]

Maybe, instead of having everyone doing night raids, you should be able to create unconventional units that are trained to fight at night, and so they would have an advantage over enemy day fighters, but in turn the night fighters would have a penalty in daytime fighting. This way you could have some huge nighttime battles,as going in with only one unit would probably get you slaughtered.

[spiffy_scimitar]

Well, even small night raids would be awkward. Think about it; at night a large army isn't standing in ranks; it's slumbering in tents, with a guarded perimiter with bonfires. Now unless the developpers are willing to spend time modelling tents, programming units scurrying naked out of them, collecting weapons and swords and rallying into formation (which I'm sure they're not), then we won't get night raids.

Next, if you say that you only wish to sneak in to assasinate someone or a certain unit, well, that's exactly what was calculated with ninjas and geisha's in the original Shogun.

[Leet Eriksson]

night raids might not work very well when talking about pitched battles but is good for guerrilla wars just like Ibn Taimia who fought the mongols he first fought them in a pitched war both sides were heavy on casualties but mongols won't stop their advance even when they are defeated so he adopt night raids he raids camps with Flamers(thunderbombers if you play the mongol invasion)it heavily injured the mongols and drived them outta the holy land.still they returned after his death!

[theforce]

How about key buildings having a limited amount of men that is in them like key food storage of a distnace province. How about sending your ninja or other elite unit in medieval destroying the key building making all enemy troops die (not all) by starvation. Also that would cause revolts. What do u think?

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.

[spiffy_scimitar]

I would think that the last people to die of starvation in the province would be the army. Although it's true destroying a supply line reduces an armies' effectiveness, armies will simply take what they need from the populance, when they need it, causing the peasants to starve first.

Also, I hardly think a whole province's food supply would be in one building; perhaps there could be an option once leaving a province to burn the fields and villages, reducing the next season's output (to be used when you know retreat is inevitable.)


Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not basing this on historical knowledge, but logic http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Hirosito]

spiffy i think you're right not only that but the current maps are not suited to this infiltration type business.the whole engine would have to be adapted. i don't want to go into my vision of the ultimate game right now but that's where your ideas are going

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[Khan7]

Hear this-- the current command and control model is way too primitive to be even thinking about night battles. Even sparing the fact that you WOULD have to model "tents and people scurrying out of them naked to grab their weapons", there is currently no C&C simulation element in the game that you could build off of, in order to render nighttime conditions.

If you were going to attack the enemy camp at night, the most you would really be able to do is *try* to set up your guys in decent formation some distance back, light torches, and go forward. Basically it's a huge gamble, only to be undertaken when there are few good alternatives. And it's not as if the enemy isn't going to see you coming, and get all up on the fortifications they have constructed to protect against just exactly this. Not only would you be running the risk of some critical miscalculation or confusion that could get you into big trouble, it would be practically impossible to control or adapt your army, even to tell them to retreat, should this occur. After the order to advance it's pretty much every man for himself. Plus as I said the enemy, though disorganized, is going to be on their fortications so I'd say in most cases the advantage this way or that would pretty much be a wash. Something only a desperate general would attempt.

Matt

[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 03-06-2002).]

[KukriKhan]

I can see a "night" option that would limit unit size (if attacking). Seems like it would play much like STW in heavy fog. Trouble would be how to define the winner? Last Man Standing seems improbable, tho' not impossible. Capture the Flag or Kill the General might work OK.

Would definitely be fun to play. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Hirosito]

the return of the matt!!!!!!!

the engine is suited to large scale battles. and yes historically there were a few night attacks but is it worth it to adapt the whole thing for just a couple of occurences. no! there other things that be made more reralistic without changes to the engine

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[Leet Eriksson]

not really worth it to integrate night attacks btw how would night attack occur?

[ELITEofGAZOZ]

I second the idea of night battles

And Kensais argumentss against night battles miss the point, cause the problems about disorganized armies occured in fog battles also.

For example he wrote:

Quote Basically it's a huge gamble, only to be undertaken when there are few good alternatives. And it's not as if the enemy isn't going to see you coming, and get all up on the fortifications they have constructed to protect against just exactly this. Not only would you be running the risk of some critical miscalculation or confusion that could get you into big trouble, it would be practically impossible to control or adapt your army, even to tell them to retreat, should this occur. After the order to advance it's pretty much every man for himself.[/QUOTE]


For me it makes the game more interesting to have night battles. Every player should consider for himself wether he wants to attack at night or with daylight.

[Dark Phoenix]

They have gotta have something better to do with there time than include a pretty unimportant feature like this.

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"DP is correct" - Shiro

[Sword_Monkey]

The problem with night battles is that it's outside of the scope of history and this game. The reason there weren't many night battles fought is that without really good weather conditions, you can't f'in see well enough to have more than a passing idea what's going on. Plus, there's this logistical problem of sneaking 5,000 men in full war gear up to a camped/entrenched enemy.

There are about four rough sketches of how night battles could be implemented:

One is realistically, occasionally, you get the jump on the sleeping enemy camps/forts and there is a one sided battle and you slaughter naked men running about in a panic. But, the majority of the time they would know you were coming and set ambushes and, with the night visibility and combat penalties that would exist, decimate your forces. Occasionally, neither side would have a decided advantage because of the timing and due to the inevitable chaos, you might as well flip a coin.

Two, they could unrealistically choose to implement it as a tactic such that there was a way to "do a night battle right". Then, the sneaky human would find ways to abuse it and then we'd see the posts about how someone was upset that he just won the second Crusades on Expert with a series of 42 night battles where the opposition barely got a kill in.

Three, they could go all out on the "let's screw realism" angle and simply implement it a scenery change. Sure they'd have to redo the skyboxes and probably the lighting portion of the engine, but, hey, the battles would look different.

Fourth, you go back to realism but the right way in that "night battles" would consist of a small, stealthy force on a guerilla raid to assassinate someone or destroy a critical depot or something similar.

Now, why are these bad ideas? One doesn't fly because if that's how it went, the intelligent human would realise just like military leaders of old, you don't fight at night unless you simply don't have any other alternative - and the situations that make this necessary are, again, outside the scope of the game. E.g., local military force gets word that enemy reinforcements are travelling north of them, if those enemy reinforcements reach the front lines a day away, it could make the difference between defeat or victory so they mount up and attack the larger enemy's camp by night. That's a cool idea but not within the broad strokes of the Total War's seasonal turns. If the AI was left making night attacks while we chose not to, one more strike against the AI.

Two won't work for the reasons already outlined. Once you implement a way to automatically gain a huge advantage in battle, people are going to exploit it. If anyone's ever played Jagged Alliance 2, they implemented night battles and many people will play the game without ever fighting by day because it's so much easier to win against the AI at night. It actually is a cool option when used sparingly, but it's also a very abusable option.

Three, why bother? If you're not going to implement night battles, don't.

Four, as has been pointed out elsewhere, this is already covered by the espionage/infiltration aspect of the strategy game. Implementing it is completely outside the capabilities of the current game engine and would require a third game engine to be coded on top of the two they already have.

[Hirosito]

thank you sword_monkey for taking thwe time to lay it out in this detail. i absolutely agree with you. if you had a deus ex engine for sneaking into the camp and then when you meet the enemy general the engine switches to virtua fighter then it would be worth it. don't say the idea isn't cool cos it is.

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[BomilkarDate]

Do you know "the first knight" with Richard Gere, Sean Connery, and Julia Ormond. Well I think the film is not to good, its just Hollywood trying to create medieval atmosphare using its strange, limited imagination.
But in the film there is a night battle (there is even a special song called night struggle, btw. the soundtrack is really good. [Jerry Goldsmith shows his skills]) Well this battle is amazing, because you cannot see the troops at first but then you can see the moonlight reflected on the knights armour. As they charge you just see some light reflections in the black. I think night battles would be good, but I tink, it should be dusk or dawn and not really night, because night is pretty black, isn't it? (Although it must be really funny klicking in the dark)

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Strength and honour

Bomilkar Date

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Ther she blows cap'n. Targ't thee 'ull an' blow 'er to king'om come me boys!

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Khan7]

Well, really it wasn't all that rare. For instance, David attacked the Phillistines or someone'r another at night and scared them off, much in the way that Arab dude did. And before the Battle of Gaugamela, when Alexander was outnumbered something like 40k to 300k, his generals wanted him to attack at night (he chose not to, probably as much for political/ethical reasons as practical concerns, and won a stunning victory the next day).

I don't think it would really be a bad option, it's just that the game technology is too far away from being able to implement it in an acceptable fashion.

Matt

[Whitey]

I for one wouldn't like to see it, night attacks were so confused as to be almost un-commandable once set in motion. In that sence the engine could not handle it, also they tend to be more of a roll-of-the-die than daytime battles and as such wouldn't add much to the game anyway...

[Nelson]

I don't see how it could be done. Battles in Shogun begin with both armies facing one another in the field. That's hardly the scenario for a night action, where typically one force is trying to get the drop on the enemy while he sleeps. There are no camps in the game, no pickets. Maybe a choice on the strategy map could allow for night attacks in the same way you can try to open castle gates with ninjas from the map screen. That's as close to a night battle as we get. I don't object to night actions per se but I don't know how they could fit into the tactical game as it stands.

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

We've bin 'it cap'n wat'll we do?

man the loife boats and prepar to aban'on ship m8y

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Hirosito]

love it Toda but slightly off topic

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[Khan7]

Exactly. The game technology simply isn't there. And probably won't be for the next few sequels, if then.

Matt

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

they're fir'ng on us cap'n!!!

Prepar to go unda men

Yeah I know Hiro but still fun. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Mojo Jojo]

Here is the perfect solution to not being able to see at night. Night vision goggles! This way, in unit creation, you could pay a lot more and have your unit equipped with nvg's. No, but really, how bout a primitive form of that? Well, actually a whole other method. Does anyone remember in gladiator's opening battle, when Maximus and his cav unit was charging through the woods, and dogs were following them? Well, maybe you could get dogs for your units, and since they have better vision, they could guide your troops. How bout it? (and about the nvg's, i think if another shogun game is made, they should put it in the modern age, that would be really cool)

[Leet Eriksson]

forget about putting a new shogun in the modern age this game is about MASSIVE battles not guerrilla wars btw i think shogun suits the napleonic wars much better MASSIVE battles and of course worldwide conquest!check out gamespot there is a new modern age game being made by westwood(also known for making C&C series)its looks cool if your interested in Modern age combat(btw the infantry designs are originally taken from Renegade wich will look cool hehehe yummy 700 polys).

[Mojo Jojo]

Yeah, I know all about C&C, but what is the title of the game they are making? I've always been partial to modern weapons and strategies, which is why ghost recon is so cool, but i got shogun cause it was the most realistic game out there, strategy wise.

[Leet Eriksson]

C&C generals!

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

"Ther waz ne'er a brav'r crew th'n them on the HMS TODA. Sleepin' in Davey Jones' Lock'r"


THE END


http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Hirosito]

tell me another story grandpa

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Um maybe another time Hiro m8 tis ur bedtime.


P.S. im not ur grandpa sorry! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Try Tera or Vanya!

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif