View Full Version : why aren\'t other games like shogun? when?
why don't other companies make similar games to shogun, using wars like napoleon,etc? it's such a great engine, and no one seems to be doing anything like it! i get tired of waiting forever for one company to come out with its one product (like medieval total war). there should be several companies competing for my dollar!
also if they have finished most of the medieval engine and graphics, why do we have to wait forever? i don't know much about tech stuff pls enlighten me what is likelihood of getting this game before august? thanks
also will this game be fully mod-able to do different wars, unlike shogun? if not why the heck not? does this mean we will have to wait another year for the next sequel???
Quote Originally posted by ket222:
why don't other companies make similar games to shogun, it's such a great engine[/QUOTE]
read inside box of MI, says patent pending, no-one can copy the engine for 20 years or something.
spiffy_scimitar
02-27-2002, 02:06
Also note that, although not using the same engine, other games play somewhat similar.
I was hooked on the Myth (the Fallen Lords and Soulblighter) series, which offers tactical medieval RTS at a squad level. Wanting to find another game of this type is what led me to buy Shogun.
Also, very soon, Warrior Lords will be released (still in the fantasy vein), and late this year, Praetorian, featuring tactical roman army combat.
None of these games offers stategy or economical aspects, but several games exist along these lines (civ3, etc).
All this to say that you do have alternatives, albeit not any as well rounded as the Total War series.
Sword_Monkey
02-27-2002, 03:43
The engine is great and CA could very well license it to other developers. That still doesn't mean the games would be good, though.
I noticed spiffy_scimitar's comparison to Myth. I noticed the same similarity but in a different way. I always felt Myth was such a missed opportunity because of a lousy interface that only let you remap a fraction of the controls. The interface was further aggravated in that the bounding boxes for units were much larger than the unit itself leading to all kinds of insanity trying to select a unit in a group. Consequently, I never got into the game no matter how good it was in theory. My point: Design is everything.
Although they have yet to prove themselves as consistently great developers, Shogun really is a standout title. Hopefully, MTW will be more of the same. Just because you've got a great engine and even a cool idea doesn't mean it translates into a good game.
Secondarily, I just don't know that the market supports a deluge of high calibre war games. I suspect that most people who are playing games like Shogun are the same sorts of guys who were palying PnP Battletech in the early 90s long before computers could do much interesting. There weren't that many people playing these sorts of games then, probably not any more of them today, proportionally speaking.
It's better to get a handful of top quality titles from a few designers who really love what they're doing then suffer a deluge of derivative titles trying to cash in on a perceived gaming trend (e.g. the countless standard RTS games that been published in the past five years even though you can count the quality ones on your fingers).
because shogun is to good
Because demand isnt so high on games that require more thought than click bang click bang, not that they are still fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif.
spiffy_scimitar
02-27-2002, 05:34
sword_monkey: PnP Battletech rules! I can't count the summers we spent playing that game. Imagine my excitement when I heard the announcement for Mech Commander (1 and 2). Picture my dissapointment when it resembled starcraft more than Battletech.
I also agree that a few quality games are preferable to a quantity of shoddily made wannabes, catering to the masses.
It's a shame really.
Shogun was given great reviews but unfortunately wasn't a best selling game for sure...
Mags say it's one of the best strategy games ever, many say it IS the best...but...just go to strategy-gaming.com or any strategy gamez site...Shogun won't be even named.
Dang it.
------------------
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evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif
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Sword_Monkey
02-27-2002, 07:08
Quote Originally posted by spiffy_scimitar:
[B]sword_monkey: PnP Battletech rules! I can't count the summers we spent playing that game. Imagine my excitement when I heard the announcement for Mech Commander (1 and 2). Picture my dissapointment when it resembled starcraft more than Battletech.
[/QUOTE]
I would figuratively kill if someone would just give me a good sprite based, turn based game of Battletech.
Somewhere between the subject matter, back story, and game mechanics was just sheer brilliance. From about 1988 until 1992 I don't know how many days and nights were lost playing that game. I still remember fondly one session that went from about 11AM til 3AM. I'd gotten extremely lucky that day and managed to kill off 2/3 of my roommate's stable of pilots with headshots http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif He was so mad when we finished the first game he demanded a rematch and I proceeded to kill even more of his pilots off - he couldn't even speak in sentences after that http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
High Voltage
02-27-2002, 11:32
Quote Shogun was given great reviews but unfortunately wasn't a best selling game for sure...
Mags say it's one of the best strategy games ever, many say it IS the best...but...just go to strategy-gaming.com or any strategy gamez site...Shogun won't be even named[/QUOTE]
Just goes to show how marketing strategies affect game sales, not necessarily the game itself.
Though I'm not that dissapointed that Shogun was pretty quiet in the gaming industry. Even though not many players online, 99% of them are honorable, unlike the bnet community.
Sword_Monkey
02-27-2002, 11:51
Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
It's a shame really.
Shogun was given great reviews but unfortunately wasn't a best selling game for sure...
Mags say it's one of the best strategy games ever, many say it IS the best...but...just go to strategy-gaming.com or any strategy gamez site...Shogun won't be even named.
Dang it.
[/QUOTE]
This is true. The reason I got the game in the first place is it was such an editor's darling. Just about every site and magazine wrote positive reviews of the game, giving it far more coverage than its final sales would necessarily warrant. I liked what people had to say, I liked the subject matter, so I bought it...
... the Warlord edition, that is. One thing that I think hurt Shogun was, if I remember correctly, the WE was announced 4th quarter 2000 based on very good initial sales. I know I decided then and there to wait for the 1st quarter 2001 release of the WE since it was going to include the original game plus a new campaign. Why buy the original if an improved version was going to be out in two months?
That 1st quarter turned to late 3rd quarter, and while I purchased the week of its release, I'm sure many others put off buying the original game and lost interest in buying the WE by the time it came out. Not to mention that WE didn't get the same sort of media attention as the original to refresh people's interests.
Since I played "Genghis Khan 2" and "Romance of the Three Kingdoms 3" by KOEI in the early '90, I was dreaming about a game that could bring a large scale battle which involve thousands of troops into my PC. It took ten years for the dream to come true. Shogun Total War. Since I got STW, I lost enterest in the game like AOE.
Other titles that I'd like to play, beside MTW, is either Genghis Khan period or the Romance of the three kingdoms period. They are great wartime period (eventhough they are a bit novel-like or may be frictional). Huge battle like the battle of Chibi (or The Red Wall) in R of 3 Kingdoms, there were almost one million troops from all three sides engage in the battle.
[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 03-23-2002).]
Bohemond
03-24-2002, 19:20
Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
It's a shame really.
...just go to strategy-gaming.com or any strategy gamez site...Shogun won't be even named.
Dang it.
[/QUOTE]
Your are at least a bit unfair here
"Best Strategy Game of 2000: Shogun"
http://www.strategy-gaming.com/features/best_and_worst_of_2000/overall.shtml
Remember SGO is just like an online mag.
See the forums of SGO and see yourself how popular is Shogun...
Tera.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.kenchi.cjb.net/).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Visit my resource site here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/)
[This message has been edited by Terazawa Tokugawa (edited 03-24-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
It's a shame really.
Shogun was given great reviews but unfortunately wasn't a best selling game for sure...
Mags say it's one of the best strategy games ever, many say it IS the best...but...just go to strategy-gaming.com or any strategy gamez site...Shogun won't be even named.
Dang it.
[/QUOTE]
This is true. Wanna know why? Because when they played... they got their arses whooped badly. So, they ran away like humiliated sissies to a mindless click-fest game.
So... what can we do? Do what I do! When you royally spank a newbie, afterwards in the foyer go up to him, and say: "Thank you, suh! May I have another?"
He will feel obliged and you can slaughter him a second time. BY the end of the second massacre, the shock of his performance (or lack thereof) will have already passed... and he will accept his newbie-ness. Then... he will be receptive to learning the way of the bush... er...
You know what I mean... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif
Sir Kuma of The Org
03-25-2002, 22:55
STW was the best selling strategy game of that year. It was not a blocbuster but was a commercial success.
It did not do well with your average 12 to 15 year old teen though, too difficult, too demanding strategy wise, needing patience to learn.
They largely seem to prefer slash, shoot, blood, click and point etc... (simpler games!!!)
For example the average age of the posters on this forum, must be 20 something or more...
Now why did the game did not do well with on-line player vs player ? The list is long, but to make it short, i can say the amazing lack of support.....
Now with Med TW, they will add some RPG feel and lots and lots of units and other stuff tring to appeal to an even wider audience. I am sure thay are aiming for a blockbuster commercial success.
This game will be huge in scope and quite fun to play BUT IT WILL BE DIFFERENT THAN STW.
I am not at all sure that this one will appeal too our resident STW experts (and historical experts also) though.
STW wasn't a hyped game by the publishers.
Man, just look at Black & White - hyped heavily for years. And ultimately noone really liked it.
I just hope MTW will be a different marketing story than STW. And the support of Gamespy et al will be good.
Tera.
------------------
Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Visit my resource site here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/)
Vlad_The_Impaler
03-26-2002, 00:56
for me , is the best strategy game i ever seen; hope in better for M:TW; and maybe and STW:2 with more options ..why not? ;maybe i am subjectif cause japanese history and culture amaze me .
Off-topic for not open another thread..is there any irc channel were i can chat with STW players ?
Papewaio
03-26-2002, 05:11
Quote Originally posted by High Voltage:
Just goes to show how marketing strategies affect game sales, not necessarily the game itself.
Though I'm not that dissapointed that Shogun was pretty quiet in the gaming industry. Even though not many players online, 99% of them are honorable, unlike the bnet community.[/QUOTE]
Ironic isn't it. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/cool.gif
The best strategy game had poor marketing strategy.
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Victory First, Battle Last
Because Shogun is a great game, but a great game not sold as it should be !!!
This game has all to be the leader, every man liking strategy, turn by turn or in real time likes Shogun. But a lot of them don'have knowledge of Shogun total war and i'm serious, i'm not lying.
I discovered Shogun with a magasine of military strategic games(Vae Victis) and i had to fight to have this game in a "cybercafé"(site to play in local network).
In france, this game is not enough knew by people.
Conclusion: better marketing = more sold = a bigger community = more market = more developments of games
Shogun requires more learning than the usual RTSG. It appeals to war gamers so that about tells it all. This is harmfully (for sales) unlike other RTS's. I don't think marketing would change this.
Imagine what must happen to some people considering what their expectations might be. When you are accustomed to starting other games like AoK, you want to quickly build buildings with workers and prepare for a rush. Shogun must seem very restricting because creating infrastructure takes a while. And turns? Why turns? That’s weird. So then you move what armies you have into enemy territory. You see the enemy on the hillside across the map and CHARGE! Why not! That’s what you do in an RTS. Of course, the men are tired when they arrive and soon break. ROUT mind you! Run away! Run out of arrows! Why won't the army fight? What’s going on here! This is ridiculous! You KNOW you had him outnumbered so what the hell happened? How could you lose? There’s only one explanation. The game is screwed up.
I think this happened a lot, sad to say.
the Count of Flanders
03-27-2002, 06:16
Yep Nelson, it got plenty of attention from all the big gaming mags/sites. It was just a bit too difficult for the average 15-year old gamer that normally buys RTS's with "Mickey Mouse" combat.
I just hope they don't make the mistake of making MTW "easier" as in a lot less options.
Outlawstar15a2
03-28-2002, 09:42
As for the U.S. Patent shit it stays in effect for bout 75 years at most after that the rights go to the rest of humanity (anyone can have it).
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I turned to the lord and asked why and he said,"We lived to die."
Sir Kuma of The Org
03-28-2002, 10:37
Quote Originally posted by the Count of Flanders:
Yep Nelson, it got plenty of attention from all the big gaming mags/sites. It was just a bit too difficult for the average 15-year old gamer that normally buys RTS's with "Mickey Mouse" combat.
I just hope they don't make the mistake of making MTW "easier" as in a lot less options.[/QUOTE]
A lot of options that can be toggled on or off seems a good answer for this type of problem, it let's the patron choose the way HE (or she) wants to play the game.
Some people just don't know what they are talking about.
1) Shogun was very highly rated by any number of sites. Go to this page which basically summarizes all the scores by site:
http://www.gonegold.com/gguide/shogun.shtml
If you go there, out of over 40 (!) reviews, you find one 68%, one or two in the 70's, all the rest in the 80's or 90's.
2) For a non RTS game Shogun sold very well. I remember it debuting in the top ten PC games in sales, and it stayed there for several weeks.
3) In addition, it's got an expansion pack and a sequel - if it did so poorly saleswise, then why any one of these, much less both of them?
Grifman
What I can say is just that we're never over 70 in the MP foyer, which is crap for the besr strategy game ever, don't you think?
Tera.
------------------
Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Visit my resource site here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/)
just cos it's the best doesn't mean people know it is. u may well find that red alert 2 is top of most peoples stratgey game lists, just laugh at them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Quote Originally posted by evilc:
just cos it's the best doesn't mean people know it is. [/QUOTE]
There it is...that's it. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Visit my resource site here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/)
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