The case for Lithuania

[Siena]

Hi everybody, I am just reposting this from another forum, to see the opinion of this forum about Lithuania.

Today Lithuania is one of Baltic States (Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia) that are located on Eastern shore of Baltic See. Today it is just a small post Soviet republic, struggling to get its economy on the feet and become part of NATO and EU.

Nevertheless – in the Middle Ages – especially in XIV-XVI centuries Lithuania was a powerful state, that substantially influenced Eastern European history. In about 1400s it was one of the largest states in Europe extending from Baltic See to The Black See, and Eastward almost up to the Moscow.
You would be right to say: “hey man, territory does not mean much, military and political power is the most important when deciding importance of the state”.
OK then.

Lithuania vs. Teutonic Knights:
During its existence Teutonic Order spent most of its resources fighting who? – Lithuanians, of course.
Lithuanians were the ones to finally beat them too. Technically, it was an army made up mostly of Lithuanians, Poles and Russians (talking about Tannenberg-Griunvald battle now), but Lithuanians were in command.

Lithuania vs. Russia:
Hands down Russia here. Lithuanians easily ruled half of Russia. In XIV century, during negotiations with Holy Roman Emperor regarding their Christendom, Lithuanians stated to the emperor that – (and I am too lazy to lookup exact Latin phrase now) – “All Russia should belong to Lithuanians”. The context of that was - Lithuanians wanted to prove to Emperor, that Teutonic Order has no business fighting Lithuanians or Russians, but should be relocated to the East of Russia to fight Mongols.

Lithuania vs. Poland
He, he, he…
Enough is to say that Polish asked for a PAGAN Lithuanian Grand Duke to become Polish king, so that Lithuanians would defend Polish from Teutonic Knights. I think that says enough about how respectful Polish were of Lithuanians. If you consider what “pagan” meant in Middle Ages.

Lithuania vs. Mongols
The main Mongol invasion in XIII century passed Lithuania by. However, as Lithuanian Grand Duchy expanded - it inevitably had to match up against Mongols, especially, because Lithuania expanded to the East.
In 1362 Lithuanians beat Tartars (not real Mongols) for the control of Kiev.
In 1380 Lithuanians hurried to help Mongols in their fight against Russians.
In 1399 Lithuanian Grand Duke Vytautas the Great led a military campaign against Mongols, to put his own guy - Tochtamysh - in Mongol’s throne. Lithuanians lost the battle near Vorksla river. Nevertheless, I think that shows how far reaching their goals were.

Let me know what you think.

Would you like to see Lithuania as playable faction in Medieval Total War?
Do you think Lihuania should be ronin faction?
Do you think it should be "lumped" together with Poland or Russia?

I know that what we would like or not probably does not matter much at this stage of game development, but it is interesting to find out.


This is my reference site (although I was unlucky to find it after I researched all information myself http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif): http://www.lietuva-jums.lt/IMI/i_en.jsp?nr=istorija_04


[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-23-2002).]

[Jaguara]

Quote Originally posted by Siena:
Lithuania vs. Poland
He, he, he…
Enough is to say that Polish asked for a PAGAN Lithuanian Grand Duke to become Polish king, so that Lithuanians would defend Polish from Teutonic Knights. I think that says enough about how respectful Polish were of Lithuanians. If you consider what “pagan” meant in Middle Ages.
[/QUOTE]

Go Pagans go! Let's hear it for the Lithuanian Pagans! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

I wonder if pagan will be a religious option in the game? I doubt it...but it would be more interesting - You would certainly be at war a lot with all those Christians wanting to wipe you out. It could be like setting the 'I want everyone to hate me' flag in Alpha Centauri - guaranteed for a challenge. That would sure spice up the game over the dull Catholics and the Islamic folks...

[Siena]

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
did you know that maximum number of images per posting is 8?
did you know that there is "flood control activated" in this forum?
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Jaguara, actually, you would be surprised - Russian Duchies and Mongols actually preffered to deal (as in "make peace" or "be ruled by") with pagan state, than with Christian one.



[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-15-2002).]

[St Stephen]

Good luck with this post here Siena!

I really want to see how far you go here with this topic.I thing you should ask this guys about cheating on MP.Will see?!

Siena please let me know if you want to join the ONER ORDER OF OMISSIONS over the .com forum at Recruitment Center topic.

Greetings from King Stephen. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Cheating on MP!!! Never do it, it just drags yo further and further into a pit of deceit and you loose the respect others had for you.

------------------
Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"

[Siena]

Let me give you more "food for thought"

Better known encounters between Lithuanians and Teutonic Order

1219 - Lithuanians with help from Novgorod, were fighting against Livonian Order. Lithuanians would organize invasions into Livonia, Livonian Knights would organize invasions into Lithuania.
1236 – Big battle near Siauliai in Lithuania. Livonian Order badly beaten by Lithuanians. 1237 – Livonian Order asked for Teutonic Order’s leadership, because were worried that they would not survive alone.
1260 – Lithuanians beat armies of both Livonian Order and Teutonic Order near Durbe in Livonia. During battle, Kursiai – Latvian tribe changed sides to join Lithuanians.
Battle ignited revolt by Prussians against Teutonic Knights.
1262 – Lithuanian king Mindaugas invades Livonia, robs and burns then retreats.
1270 – 1316 – Lithuanians would rob and burn German and Polish territories, Germans would rob and burn Lithuanian lands and also build castles to protect themselves and encircle Lithuania.
1322 – Germans invaded Zemaitija (North – West Lithuania) and destroyed a castle. Same year Grand Duke Gediminas invaded Livonia in revenge.
1325 – Grand Duke of Lithuania Gediminas allied with Polish king Vladislav Lokietka.
Lithuanians would help Polish in a few marches against Teutonic Order, but Poles would never show up to help Lithuanians. Alliance ended with Gediminas death.
1336 – Teutonic Knights stormed castle of Pilenai in Lithuania. Lithuanians burned themselves refusing to surrender.
1345 – Teutonic Knights were preparing for a big invasion of Lithuania. Lithuanian army did not wait, but invaded Livonia, laid siege to Riga, but since Riga was usually friendly to Lithuanians, terminated siege and came back.
The Master of Teutonic Order was blamed for that – he was called a traitor, and removed from his post.
1345 – 1377 Teutonic Knights would not make big invasions. Instead they did small marches to quickly rob and burn, then retreat. It is estimated – Teutonic Knights made about 70 invasions in this period, while Livonian Order made about 30.
Lithuanians were preparing big invasions of Order’s lands, destroyed a few castles.
1348 – Battle of Streva in Lithuania. Teutonic Knights were able to defend themselves during one of invasions into Lithuania. Teutonic Knights declared it a big victory, claimed they had killed 10,000 Lithuanians. However, there is no way Lithuanians could have organized such an army on a few days notice.
1362 – Teutonic Knights destroyed castle of Kaunas in Lithuania.
Lithuanians rebuilt it.
Germans destroyed it again.
Germans started building their own castle there.
1369 – Lithuanians destroyed it.
1370 –Lithuanian Grand Duke Algirdas and his brother Kestutis invaded Teutonic Order’s lands. With two armies they marched towards Konighsberg.
Teutonic Knights called all their forces there.
Rudava battle occured – in which leadership of Teutonic Order was killed. Lithuanians retrieved from Teutonic Order’s territory.
Teutonic Knights declared it a victory, but could not do any invasions to Lithuania for a few years.
1377 – big Teutonic Army invaded Lithuania. Could not take castles, just robbed and burned. Lithuanian Duke Kestutis and his son Vytautas started guerilla war against them. Destroyed food supplies, killed Knights. Only small parts of Teutonic army made it out alive.
1380 – 1392 – Teutonic Order did not make any invasions on its own. It tried to ignite civil war among Lithuanians, by siding with one Duke against another.
1392 – Vytautas becomes factual ruler of all Lithuania. Teutonic Knights, being very angry that Vytautas had used them in his fight against Jogaila, invaded Lithuania, burned a few castles and retrieved.
1401 – 1402 Vytautas ignited revolt of Zemaiciai (North West Lithuania) against Teutonic Knights. Vytautas had given Zemaiciai to Teutonic Knights for their help against Jogaila. So Zemaiciai threw out all Teutonic Knights from their territory and invaded Teutonic Odrer’s lands.
1403 – Teutonic Knights started backing Svitrigaila (Jogaila’s brother) against Vytautas. Teutonic Knights invaded Lithuania.
Pope asked Teutonic Knights to stop attacking Lithuania (Christianized from 1387).
Vytautas again gave Zemaiciai to Teutons. He needed peace for his actions against some Russian Duchies.
1409 – after successful march against Smolensk, Vytautas again ignited revolt of Zemaiciai. This time he openly sent his army to help them. Teutonic Knights were removed from Lithuania.
1410 – battle of Tannenberg – Griunvald. Lithuanian army led by Vytautas and Polish army led by Jogaila defeated Teutonic Knights.
1422 – Lithuanian army led by Vytautas and Polish army led by Jogaila invaded Teutonic Order’s lands to force Teutonic Order give up some of its territories.

After peace of Meln in 1422, Teutonic Order was no longer a threat to Lithuania.

[St Stephen]

As I thought,you mention MP and cheating and they will come.

Sorry Siena,I'm not trying to steal your post here,just want to prove a point.

Again, good luck my friend!

[Siena]

thanks for the joke King Stephen.
I am not worrying about my luck. I just give information. It is up to people to read it and reply or not reply.


[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-17-2002).]

[Siena]

dead silence? no opinions?

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Well what would you like an opinion on?

They do seem to get into their fair share of scraps with the Teutonic Order, but then thats not too unusual. England and France were best mates from 1000 - 1400 weren't they...

But thanx for the time-line, it was very interesting to read http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Siena]

oh, sorry Toda Nebuchadnezzar,
as I was reposting, I forgot to add the question. The question is:

Would you like to see Lithuania as playable faction in MTW?

[Siena]

Please, look in top post, I added my questions.

[Choco]

It would be interesting to have Lithuania in the game but ....

The main factor IMO to justify if a small faction gets a place in MTW is territoriality:

-I mean how big was Lithuanian territory historically. If your territory was 10x 10 Kms that would look awfully small in the game map. I suppose the idea when you design a game map is to get all the factions having a fair size: not too small not too big.

-Other point: How continous or steady was Lithuania? Was its territory unified or it was fragmented and mingled with Russians, Theutonic Knights and Poles?. Just imagine how difficult it would be to play Lithuania if your territory is a bunch of isolated small pieces of land mixed with other factions.

So I think than in this case more than historical value the problem with Lithuania is its territoriality

[Leet Eriksson]

lithuania is big as seen in seinas post in the .com forums a united front covering eastern europe though i don't know if it was a big nation i think you'll have to see to judge.

[Siena]

It was quite big at the height of its power in 1430. The best thing - that it was rising through the period of MTW.
Here are some maps:

http://www.ukans.edu/kansas/medieval/graphics/maps/1270.gif http://www.ukans.edu/kansas/medieval/graphics/maps/1328.gif http://www.ukans.edu/kansas/medieval/graphics/maps/1382.gif http://www.ukans.edu/kansas/medieval/graphics/maps/1430.gif

Lithuania had a few civil wars, but in a whole it was very steady and united during the period.

Faisal, thanks for the help http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-17-2002).]

[St Stephen]

Quote Originally posted by Siena:
It was quite big at the height of its power in 1430. The best thing - that it was rising through the period of MTW.
Here are some maps:

http://www.ukans.edu/kansas/medieval/graphics/maps/1270.gif http://www.ukans.edu/kansas/medieval/graphics/maps/1328.gif http://www.ukans.edu/kansas/medieval/graphics/maps/1382.gif http://www.ukans.edu/kansas/medieval/graphics/maps/1430.gif

Lithuania had a few civil wars, but in a whole it was very steady and united during the period.

Faisal, thanks for the help http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-17-2002).][/QUOTE]


The Hungarian Empire 1382.HA-HA. Looks impressive.Thank you Siena.

If Hungary will be playable in MTW this will be the case and more. So good to dream sometimes. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Siena]

just keeping it going

Lithuanian encounters with Mongols to 1400

1258 - King of Lithuania Mindaugas, with help from Duchy of Volynia attacked Mongols.
In revenge Mongols sacked Eastern part of Lithuania.
No big battles.
1362 - Grand Duke of Lithuania Algirdas beat one of local Mongol rulers for the control of Kiev and Podole in battle of Blue Waters (name I translated from Russian).
1380 - Grand Duke of Lithuania Jogaila marched to help Mongols in their fight against Russians. Duke of Moscow attacked and beat Mongols at Kulikovo before Lithuanians came. Lithuanians just beat parts of Russian army that was marching home after difficult battle.
1399 - Grand Duke of Lithuania Vytautas the Great led a military campaign against Mongols to put his own guy - Tochtamysh - in Mongol's throne. Lithuanians lost the battle near Vorksla river.

[Grifman]

Sorry, you have to go with states that were powers in 1095. From the maps Lithuania was small and not significant at the late date of 1270. Only in the later Middle Ages does it become a power. Besides you have to draw the line somewhere - everyone can't get in, so who are you going to throw out?

Grifman

[Siena]

Grifman,
you are talking about 1270 map?

well, what about Italy?
I don't see Italy at all on that map.
I don't see Almohads either.
I don't see Russia.
Poland does not seem too significant.

I think there are very few states that were significant throughout the whole period.

I am not the one to decide who to throw out. I am just asking about Lithuania.

[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-18-2002).]

[Leet Eriksson]

its all up to CA to decide anyway i think they will only add the famous factions i dunno if lithuania is famous in the UK....don't lose hope though they might add them hopefully..

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

This is sort of like MI.

You have the choice to start at different times in the Sengoku Jidai era. Each different time has a different map (you know what I mean.) This could be the way they play it. If you start in 1095 Lithuania is in it but only one province. But say in 1300 they have 5 provinces and other factions have declined.

I think I remember Kuma saying they will split the game up into either 3 sections (like full campaign in MI) or the chance to play all 400 years.

So who knows.

------------------
Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Grifman]

Hey, you wanted my opinion - if you were afraid you might not get an answer you liked, then maybe you shouldn't have asked. A few comments though:

1) No one has said Italy was in the game and I don't think they will - just my guess.

2) The Almohads represent the North African Muslims - various groups controlled that area at the time, you could pick any of them as a representative group.

3) The Russians were a force for most of the time up until the Mongol invasions, then they became vassals.

4) I don't know whether Poland is in the game or not. However, they are a major power when the game begins - just see the series of maps below.

4) See this series of maps:
http://www.euratlas.com/summary.htm

a) In 1100 the Lithuanians just appear to be one of many tribes along the Baltic

b) In 1200 Lithuania is just one of a number of small states in the Baltic/Russian area.

c) In 1300 not much change

d) In 1400, ok you're a power, but the game is almost over http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

5) Lastly did you read what I said? I said you have to go with those who were powers in 1095 not 1278. Most if not all of the nations named were powers then. Your maps of Lithuania don't show them becoming a significant power until over 200 years after the start of the game, well into the 1300's. Sorry too late.

Making Lithuania a power in 1095 would be like making the US a power in 1776. Yeah, they were a power 200 years later, but not when if the game began in 1700! If I make a game starting in 1320 I'll be sure to put Lithuania in it - but until them, sorry, you don't make the cut.

I'm not trying to be rude, just state the facts.

Grifman

[Siena]

Grifman,
- your opinion is fine http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I am just discussing with you.
Actually, if you put if that way: that country has to be a power in 1095, then yes -Lithuania does not belong there.

But then Hungary must be a major power.
Also, how do you explain Turkey or Mongols?


Toda Nebuchadnezzar,
whay you are saying is interesting, do you have more information about it?

Just saw Kurma's reply. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Toda, you are right.

[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-18-2002).]

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

Correct Toda The player will have the choice to play one of the three period campaigns OR if he desires the whole campaign spanning 400 years.

As for what faction will be playable, in my case i don't really care. What's important to me is that there will be 5 more factions than in STW and those factions will have greater differences than STW (specific units and such). I'm more "is the game playable and fun type" than the historical accuracy in game type.

Then again, i don't live on the on that side of the ocean, so there is no "personnal" implication there for me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
Yes the camel sprites do look good, hope they sound good also...

[This message has been edited by Sir Kuma of The Org (edited 02-18-2002).]

[Grifman]

Well, first off, there is alot of speculation about who is in and who is out. Do we have a definitive list yet? I think we know this so far:

1) Almohads
2) Byzantines
3) English
4) Spanish/Castile
5) French
6) Holy Roman Empire (Germans)
7) Turks

So what of the others? I haven't seen anything definite - there are other nations mentioned - Russia, Mongols, Poland, etc. but it is unclear as to whether they can be controlled or are NPC territory. I think we just have to wait before making any judgements. If you have more definitive list, I'd love to see it.

I don't know if the Hungarians are in or out without such a list. As for the Turks, they were indeed a power at the time and went on to be a power for the next 600 years or so. The Seljuk Turks had just finished conquering most of Asia Minor, the Caucasus and parts of Mesoptamia from the Byzantines. As for the Mongols, they are a bit late, but hey, unfortunately, if you have to choose between Lithuania and the Mongols, any guess as to who is going to make it in? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Grifman

[Siena]

ok, Grifman, you've got me there.
So then this "Roman Sultanate" in the map are actually Seljuk Turks?

I still think it would be interesting if Lithuania was there (the only pagan power http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif)

But now - the only chance I see, if those 3 campaigns that Kurma mentioned have different playable nations.
It would be logical if playable nations would be different, but probably too much to ask for?

[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-19-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-19-2002).]

[Grifman]

Yes, the Byzantines called themselve "Romans" since in their mind that's what they were, descendants of the original Roman Empire. When the Seljuks conquered part of them, they called the piece they conquered the "Sultanate of Rum". The Ottomans continued the practice when they conquered the Byzantines, and indeed, considered themselves the new heirs of the Roman Empire.

Funny, just a note, the Byzantines never called themselves Byzantines and wouldn't know what you were talking about if you used theme term on them. They were always "Romans" in their minds.


Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing - if in the three campaigns the nations are different. I suspect they are different in that not all are available - but they have to be one of the original 12. This would be just like Shogun - you had different campaigns with different clans, but no clans that weren't in the grand campaign.

Grifman

[This message has been edited by Grifman (edited 02-19-2002).]

[Cheetah]

Quote But then Hungary must be a major power.[/QUOTE]

Yes, yes, it must be! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Quote Also, how do you explain Turkey or Mongols?[/QUOTE]

They are interesting enough to be included. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif


Quote I still think it would be interesting if Lithuania was there (the only pagan power http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

But now - the only chance I see, if those 3 campaigns that Kurma mentioned have different playable nations. It would be logical if playable nations would be different, but probably too much to ask for?[/QUOTE]

Yes, yes, too much http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Let's face it: Hungary and Lithuania are not interesting enough to be included as a playable faction. I think that the most important criteria of picking playable factions is that an average costumer (probably from US or western europe) should find it challanging and should be interested in playing with that faction. That is why Mongols and Turks will be playable factions but our little countries won't be. I think that for an average costumer Hungary or Lithuania is less interesting than the Turks or the Mongols, or even Russia or Poland.

"Average costumers" (from US and westen europe) please prove me wrong !!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by Cheetah (edited 02-19-2002).]

[Siena]

hey, I live in US. I am average consumer.
If Lithuania will be there as playable faction, I will buy 10 copies http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Maybe not...

But Lithuania was unique in that it was pagan thoughout the period.
Also it was probably fastest expanding country, excluding Mongols.

If they will have subsets of same original 12 states in smaller campaigns, then I guess Lithuania will not be there. But then how map will look in last campaign. Will there be LARGE and EXTREMELY STRONG ronin faction in Eastern Europe (I mean Lithuania)?

[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-20-2002).]

[Leet Eriksson]

the map is gonna be a bit smaller so no you will not see a big peice of the land in ronin hands instead the devs are gonna make them under certain factions control anyway the game is not supposed to be historically accurate so you'll never know what will happen in the span of 400 years(so it might be under mongol control for example or turkish you never know).

[Jaguara]

I have my fingers crossed for Lithuania. They do seem to be a rather major player through the period, and the role as the only pagan nation is an interesting dynamic.

I think there is a chance to be included, as one of the last 3-4 factions that everyone is guessing about.

[Siena]

If Lithuania was in,
you would have to take over Russia, when keeping careful alliances with Mongols, but sometimes taking a risk of attacking them to wrestle some more Russian lands.
At the same time you would have to keep German expansion at bay, and to check Poland in place.

You would have to deal with pravoslav, Christian and pagan religions, to jugle them accordingly, depending on political situation.

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

I reckon they should put Lithuania in just because of its pagan religion. STW has buudhist and then christian. MTW would have:
Islam
Catholic
Orthodox
Pagan - Lithuania (and possibly Mongols if in it)

Maybe you could change religion by making alliances or only make allainces with those of the same religion (denomination of the religion)

Therefore Lithuania (in an ideal game) could only ally with the mongols and then sweep across the map from East to West.

------------------
Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Siena]

Toda, now that would be cool, wouldn't it?
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Jaguara]

Agreed on the list of religions...but question...I forget when the reformation was...won't we have the Protestants come along somewhere in there?

I want to take England, and switch religion to Pagan so that the Druids can fight off the Christian oppressors http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Actually, I think that would be pretty funny.

[Leet Eriksson]

Wow i'll switch engnland to sunni to be even more redicoulous lol!Islamic longbowmen LOL!!!!

[Jaguara]

I don't think that England should be allowed to switch their weather from Raini to Sunni!

Switching religion is one thing, switching weather patterns is another...

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

He doesn't get replies eh http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.kenchi.cjb.net/).
evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif
Visit my resource site here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/)

[Leet Eriksson]

Do you know sunni is a lot different from sunny?I'll put it in more simpler words SWITCH BRITIAN TO ISLAMIC YEAH BABY ISLAMIC LONGBOWS KICK ASS!!!!ok jk but i'll porbably play britian without switiching relegion it sounds rediculous to attack the holy land while your muslim hehehehe...

[Leet Eriksson]

btw sunni is not prnounced sunny its pronounced soo-ni very simple eh?

[Jaguara]

Yes, faisal, I knew about the sunni (soo-nee).

I was just messin with ya... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Notice I also misspelled 'rainy' as 'raini'. It was just my strange sense of humour.

[Leet Eriksson]

keep it up buddy poeple with sense of humour prevent these forums from being dull http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Takeda Marko]

Well you Hungarians.
You would like to have Hungary in the game?
Well then we Croats will be included there too. After all you did exploit us for over 800 years!
About the Lithuanians: I think they too(like the Magyars) deserve to be in the game because they were maybe the strongest nation in the 13th and 14th century in Europe.

------------------
"Be swift as the wind, silent as the forest, fierce as fire, steady as a mountain"
= Takeda Shingen's Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan

[Leet Eriksson]

but lithuania came to power late 1400's the game starts 1100's but here is something very wiered some review said"not all factions are avaliable at one time"if so then i guess each 100 year is gonna sport its own set of factions so that makes a total of 48 factions!!!

[Jaguara]

Quote Originally posted by faisal:
but lithuania came to power late 1400's the game starts 1100's but here is something very wiered some review said"not all factions are avaliable at one time"if so then i guess each 100 year is gonna sport its own set of factions so that makes a total of 48 factions!!![/QUOTE]


I would say that you are being more than a little hasty in that assumption. I think that it is supposed to be twelve factions total. I could be mistaken, it has happened before, it will happen again.

[Siena]

what if Lithuania was the thirteenth country, just like "The 13th warrior", different from others, but the one to spice up the whole thing? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Comedy...

Lithuania could just be a non-playable ronin type faction. Or as stated earlier it could start off with one province in 1000, and then say you start in 1200 you start with three provinces. Then start in 1300 and have 7 provinces.

This is the more plausible idea i feel. Same could go for Hungary.

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Siena]

The story of first king of Lithuania becoming a Christian

The first king of Lithuania Mindaugas converted to Cristianity in 1251. However, 10 years later he was killed by other heathen Lithuanians.
However, it was not as simple as it sounds. When Mindaugas (by the way he was the only king of Lithuania, sanctioned by Pope) became christian, Teutonic Knights stopped invading his lands. However, parts of Lithuania did not belong to Mindaugas, so they were sort of not included in this Christian umbrella. So Teutons and Livonians waged an open war against them, just under the nose of Mindaugas. To make matters more complicated these heathen Lithuanians won a big battle of Durbe in 1260, inflicting very big losses on both Teutonic Order and Livonian Order. Just after the battle, Prussians (which were Balts just conquered by Teutonic Order) revolted.
So Mindaugas had to chose - to either stay friends with Teutonic Order and watch his nation and other Balts be slaughtered, or join them in the fight against Germans. He chose to join the fight.
However, soon he started to feel sorry that he turned agaist Teutonic Order, and refused to send an army to fight them. Then Lithuanians who felt betrayed by Mindaugas, assasinated him.

[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-23-2002).]

[Kurando]

Siena;

I was born and raised in southern Poland and I have no trouble with giving Lithuania it's just due and recognizing it as a homeland of Great Warriors and Leaders, but much of what you have put forth here regarding the Kingdom of Poland-and-Lithuania is very selective. You make it seem my ancestors up-and-said: "...we poor Poles need a Pagan Lithuanian to come and save us" when in fact it was the common practice of an alliance by way of a Royal Marriage that allowed Vladyslav Jogaila to ascend to the thrown + it is noteworthy that as part of the agreement Jogaila converted to Christianity and adopted a proper Christian name.

As far as the remarkable accomplishment of defeating the Teutonic Knights goes it was clearly a team effort all the way: you couldn't have possibly done it without our help and we couldn't have possibly done it without your help. As a Pole I have no problem accepting that, and as a Lithuanian I hope that you can too.

..

Beyond that I agree with you that Lithuania should not be overlooked, but rather that it should be recognized in M:TW in a similar fassion to the other deserving Nations of that period.

[Siena]

Kurando,

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

I am taking this “defending Poland from Teutonic Knights” idea from agreement that Grand Duke of Lithuania Jogaila made with Poles in 1385, when negotiating becoming a king of Poland. In that agreement he had to promise “to get lost Polish lands using his own money and army” (I am citing the meaning not exact words).

Of course, I am being selective, as you said, because that is NOT how it happened. In fact wars with Teutonic Order after Jogaila became king of Poland WERE in fact a team effort of Poles and Lithuanians.
(as a note – Poles are also often selective in citing Jogailas promise “to forever join Lithuania to Poland”, which of course also DID NOT happen).

So, although I agree that a final blow to Teutonic Order was a team effort of Poles and Lithuanians (you can add Russians, which were part of Lithuanian army), the continuous resistance against Teutonic Order was clearly mostly accomplished by Lithuanians. I mean even Poles participated in invasions of Lithuania as part of crusading Teutonic force.

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Thanx for the history lesson guys. I learned a lot about Lithuania & Poland back in the day. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Siena]

I hope you will like this http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif :

German chronicles describe Lithuanians as experienced and skilled soldiers, of whom all their neighbors were quite fearful. Also during XIII, XIV and part of XIV centuries ethnic Lithuania was a theater of continuous fighting. All Lithuanians were responsible for defense of the country - all society was war oriented. The rulers were also great warriors and politics otherwise they were quickly dethroned. That was a necessity, without which Lithuania could not have survived.

Lithuanian beliefs did not support "heroic death" in battle that would ensure place in paradise, as did Viking beliefs, or Moslem beliefs. Lithuanian beliefs also did not support a notion of fighting for God, as did Christian beliefs.
Nevertheless, Lithuanians viewed war as a necessary part of life, so every man was expected to participate in a war march. Old folk song says something like: "a man cannot be good farmer if he was not a soldier first".
Lithuanians viewed battle as an armed brawl - nothing more and nothing less. So they would only engage in battle, when they had a clear plan of it, or if there was no other way. Lithuanians were extremely practical in their war effort. They would use local forests to ambush Knights, would destroy invading enemies supplies, would harass and starve them. Also, they would often break "conventions" of war by not defending their land, but invading enemy land, to make enemy army withdraw to defend their homeland.
Also, because war was not something sacred to them, Lithuanians sought to acquire war skills by learning from their enemy. Lithuanians were quick to adopt their enemy's tactics and use them when occasion arose. So, they learned siege and castle building from Westerners, cavalry tactics from Mongols, and used Russian archers.

Lithuanians fought with Livonian Order to the North, Teutonic Order to the West, Russian Duchies and Mongols (occasionally) to the East, Poles (occasionally) and Hungarians (occasionally) to the Southeast.
Lithuania the height of its power (middle XIV - beginning XV centuries) included a vast territory stretching from Baltic Sea to the Black Sea. Although local forces did most of the fighting, Grand Dukes of Lithuania had to often organize big armies to invade enemy territory.
Marches to foreign lands must have been made by cavalry, simply because cavalry could have been able to march big distances fast. On the marches that involved taking enemy castle, supporting infantry was drawn from lands closest to enemy lands.

Lithuanian cavalry would be considered "light" when compared with Western Knights. They were lightly armored, and armed with swords and spears.
Infantry comprised of local population with the backing of professional Grand Duke's army handled foreign invasions into Lithuania. Lithuanian infantrymen - were armed with swords, axes and spears.
The ranged weapon of Lithuanians traditionally was a spear. Probably because Lithuania was a land of forests, Lithuanians did not use bows. Later, when they engaged in war in other terrains, they would use Russian archers.
Since Lithuanians did not produce metal weapons, all of them must have been traded or acquired in war.
Nevertheless, that does not mean that Lithuanians were poorly armed. If fact they had the latest weaponry, although probably not in the ample supply.
For example, when Teutonic Order used bombards against Lithuanians, a few years passed, and Lithuanians used bombards against Teutonic Knights.
Although Lithuanians were not mariners, they did used navy occasionally to surprise Germans.



[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-23-2002).]

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Again very interesting thank you Siena.

Is there no metal to be found in Lithuania then? Wonder who they beat first to get the weapons LOL those guys must have been pathetic!

------------------
Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Siena]

LOL
they must have traded their weapons.
Also, spear when used with skill, can be a very dangerous weapon. Good enough to hunt bears. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I don't want you to get an impression that Balts were some kind of stone age people. Balts lived there for thousands of years. There are even records that they had contact with Rome. There are some Roman coins found in Lithuania. Rome was crazy about Baltic amber.
So Balts were trading for thousands of years. They had weapons for a long time http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-23-2002).]

[Siena]

very interesting reading about formation of Lithuanian state (look at last paragraph - conclusions): http://www.geocities.com/imantas2/en/state.htm

This source actually says that Lithuanian state was formed in XI century.
Making it eligible for M:TW http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


However, this next site is by far best historic site on Lithuania (and probably any historic site on any country I have yet seen - prove me wrong, if you know better) http://www.lietuva-jums.lt/IMI/i_en.jsp?nr=istorija_04

[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-23-2002).]

[Siena]

To those interested in Lithuanian religion: http://www.geocities.com/imantas2/socium/pagonybe-en.htm

Have to warn, that it is a scientific article.

[Siena]

Lithuanian castles: http://www.geocities.com/imantas2/pilys/murines-en.htm

[Leet Eriksson]

incredible they used spears on cavalry just like the mamelukes!

[St Stephen]

Siena
I know a pretty girl from Lithuania,I know a great patriot(you) from there,I know the History of Lithuania now and I know I will defenetly visit your homeland in the future.

Thank you.

You do more service to your country than the Lithuanian Government.

[Siena]

faisal,
I know that usual and main weapon of Lithuanian cavalry was a sword. I also wrote spear, because I know that Lithuanian infatrymen sometimes used short spears as ranged weapons, so I assumed that some cavarlymen must have used them too.

Stephen,
I don't know what to say. Those are very nice words.
Thank you.

P.S. You must have very low opinion of Lithuanian Government http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-24-2002).]

[Siena]

Medieval Lithuanian society:
http://www.geocities.com/imantas2/socium/index-en.htm


[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-24-2002).]

[St Stephen]

Quote Originally posted by Siena:

Stephen,

P.S. You must have very low opinion of Lithuanian Government http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Siena (edited 02-24-2002).][/B][/QUOTE]

No my friend,other way around! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Siena]

well thanks, Stephen, I am really honored.

P.S. I should probably ask for Lithuanian Government to pay me then http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[St Stephen]

Quote Originally posted by Siena:
well thanks, Stephen, I am really honored.

P.S. I should probably ask for Lithuanian Government to pay me then http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif[/QUOTE]

If I speak any Lithuanian I would contact them for ya! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[NagatsukaShumi]

Wooohooo someone who thinks Lithuania is great! It is an awsome country I must agree, I wish I was Lithuanian, it is an awsome place, and now I am desperate for them to be in

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Give me your heart, and I'll break it.
Give me your virginity and you'll lose it.
Give me your money, and I'll keep it.
http://www.geocities.com/shumiclan//Sengoku6.jpg

[Dom]

all I got to say is that the only reason Lithuania could expand those land to 1400's was because of the blow that Rus has suffered from the Mongols, with nasty little scavengers like Tatars, Lithuanians and Poles picking up the free meal.

Your portrayal of Lithuania from the "as opposed to Russia" perspective is laughable. The state as such only existed as a result of Russia's weakness and therefore should be treated as an interim phenomenon, nothing more.

It had plently of interesting processes happening inside it. The fight for power is one thing that is VERY interesting to follow. It was a rather educated state, with some cutural achievment.

Yes it was big, yes it had an army, yes it fought Teutonic order, yes it existed in a period the Medieval TW is set. I wonder who else would fight Teutonic order (just look at its borders, Litvo-Polish coalition, Russia, Livon order and the Holy Roman Empire. They took on Russia as well as on Poland and Lithuania, so I wouldn't call that conflict a remarkable achievment.

Battles, in which rarely more that 300 khights died are probably not worth mentioning if you start comparing it to the mainstream Europe.

I am afraid that in spite of all its shiny appearance,medieval Lithuania as such was not going to last long in one form or another, and there was not a moment in history, imho, that it had a chance to carry on being a big power. Same can be said for many other Medieval states, that are not included in the coming game.

Regards, Ryurik.

[This message has been edited by Dom (edited 04-28-2002).]

[NagatsukaShumi]

Dom, whether Lithuania was a "scavenger" or not it still became an important nation later on, and saying that it only became like this because of the Mongols crushing Russia isn't exactally a fair decription.

And Lithuania had been around quite a while

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Give me your heart, and I'll break it.
Give me your virginity and you'll lose it.
Give me your money, and I'll keep it.
http://www.geocities.com/shumiclan//Sengoku6.jpg

[Dom]

Well... it is important to look at the reasons why it became a big territory, and why it stopped being such.

I would seriously question the imoprtance of Lithuania in Middle Ages because its fate didn't lie withing its borders. Never. It was given the "free reign" by the Fate. And it didn't capitalise on that chance. I'd call it a wasted opportunity, no nation has ever wasted such a chance (apart from Poland, perhaps). So if Lituania should appear on the M:TW map it should be in its true historical context. Somewhat as a local pain in the @$$ for 4 centuries or so. Not a side I would play for.

So I would only classify it as a "Russian problem", rather than a European force. Once the Mongols were gone, Lithuanians never stood a chance. Mind you that the land "controlled" by the Golden Whorde were never literally occupied by it, just paying anuual tax and getting a "Yarlik" - certificate to rule the land.

The local rulers of the land were doing as much damage to the land by internal wars as those from Lithuania were doing to their occupied territory.

Don't forget the internal struggles for power with that region.

Just to go off-topic, I'm Ukrainian and have long experience trying to draw a fine line between where nationalism must end and sound evaluation of the situation begin. All factors must be looked into, not just the size of the land and army, but their role as well.

Regards, Ryurik.

[NagatsukaShumi]

I'm not been a nationalist, infact I'm not even Lithuanian, I just think a side with that land at that time should be included in the game as a playable faction, I prefer playing as sides which I know less about, you can learn a bit while playing as them then. Though I can see your point.

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Give me your heart, and I'll break it.
Give me your virginity and you'll lose it.
Give me your money, and I'll keep it.
http://www.geocities.com/shumiclan//Sengoku6.jpg

[Orda Khan]

The Mongols played a huge part in history of this area from 1221, so should be included. Lithuania at the time may have been small but they were very resolute. Maybe it's the case that the more well known powers will be the ones included in MTW. All this waiting, very frustrating........Orda

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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."

[Dom]

Not to worry, Orda, the Golden Whorde is included http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif you'll get your chance to sweep through Europe.

[NagatsukaShumi]

Even if Lithuania aren't in, I will edit the files so they are in, maybe over a team I feel pointlessly included

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Give me your heart, and I'll break it.
Give me your virginity and you'll lose it.
Give me your money, and I'll keep it.
http://www.geocities.com/shumiclan//Sengoku6.jpg