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Bwian
05-20-2007, 21:18
Not at all sure what we need here, and what's available! The armybooks are no help here, since there was no Naval combat going on here.

I trust there is something in the wider texts and RPG stuff that we can use. I know we will need ships, and that they are a simple thing to make ( needing no real modelling work ) but I need some guidelines for how to move on this.

Some races .. Dwarves for example... just wouldn't have ships in my opinion. Can't imagine a dwarf taking to the sea... so there would have to be some way to recruit mercenary ships for use.

Also...I need to get an idea of what races use what ships. Orcs and Elves wouldn't have the same boats!

quadrille
05-20-2007, 22:03
Games Workshop used to make a game that was called Man o' War that dealt with naval combat much like battlefleet gothic deals with space battles in the WH40k universe.

Although I never played it myself, I'm quite sure both the dwarves and Chaos dwarves were represented. The ship designs were, similarly to the miniature designs of the time, quite over the top but should maybe give some ideas of the different types of ships used by the different races.

Casuir
05-20-2007, 22:12
Umm, never heard of Man O' War? Theres fleets for most of the races bar the undead and lizardmen. The game is due for a re-release this or next year I think so might be best to leave this until we know when that will happen and if we're able to base the fleets on it.

Heres somne dwarf ships:
http://www.chaosorc.com/images/Dwarf%20Ironclad%20lot.jpg

Meneldil
05-20-2007, 22:52
Here (http://www.stephane.info/show.php?code=manowar&lg=fr) are some pics of the High Elves and Dark Elves Man O' War Fleet, from a french website.

I'll try and find more infos, but from what I remember, Elves had superior but more expensive fleets. Oddly, Bretonia had 17th century-like ships (and was described as a major sea power), while the Empire had medieval-looking ones.
The Norses (who were probably part of Chaos) had various kind of longships, the Dwarves got Steamships.
Rules were made for the undeads, but no figures were released (though I guess VC should get Empire ships with an undead look, and TK egyptian-like ships).

Edit : And here (http://dougram.battletechnology.org/TableTopGaming/GamesWorkshop/ManOWar/ManOWar.htm) is another site with loads of info, and a few other pics.

Dogman55
05-21-2007, 02:04
The Lizardmen, if you're giving them ships, would probably have nothing more then basic rafts. This would probably be because of the immense magical prowess of the slann, the lizardmen could be magically transported to alot of places in the warhammer world. Don't think there really is a way to replicate that, so rafts (weak but numerous) might be a just option.

Jargon
05-21-2007, 04:05
Surely the offspring of the Slann would be more sophisticated than to only use rafts? They would not be able to use their magical abilities to transport lizardmen all the time, and that doesnt fit into the game mechanics. Some floating aztec juggernaughts would look awesome.

captphill666
05-21-2007, 09:08
have been following this mod for a few weeks now and its looks very good, just to let you know i was a Beta tester on another Warhammer mod for Rome and i collected GW miniatures so will post any ideas i have.

have got a link for a Man`of`war web site but i have to make 1 post before i can attach a link :) post to follow

captphill666
05-21-2007, 09:19
As above link to website

http://dougram.battletechnology.org/TableTopGaming/GamesWorkshop/ManOWar/ManOWar.htm

Bwian
05-21-2007, 11:48
That gives me something to go on. Looks as though it never made it to the UK ... which is why I never ran across it. Also...it looks like it's long out of print. Not a problem for the Mod though. ... the website lists the ships, and the templates give me an idea of what the ships look like. They are easy enough to re-create.

I want to give each race 3 levels of ship ...which is a bit of a pain, really, since they can't be used across multiple races. For balance purposes, each race has a basic ship, a mid-range ship, and a top rate battlewagon. Some are more powerful ( especially the Bretonnians ) and some are faster .. so some will get more movement than others, and some will be more combat effective. Manouverability will also be a factor. That should suffice for the basic needs of the game for naval combat.

Dave1984
05-21-2007, 12:11
That gives me something to go on. Looks as though it never made it to the UK ... which is why I never ran across it.


It certainly did make it over here, it was my favourite game of the lot! The rickety Orc ships were absolutely spot on! Ah, memories... :D I'll see if I can dig out my old fleet books.

Bwian
05-21-2007, 12:53
If you have a copy, that would be great! I need to get enough reference data for balancing, and enough pics of the ships to make some models for rendering and for the strat map models. Don't have to be all that detailed...vut I wantthem to look as good as we can make them

Born in lust for blood
05-21-2007, 13:09
Surely the offspring of the Slann would be more sophisticated than to only use rafts? They would not be able to use their magical abilities to transport lizardmen all the time, and that doesnt fit into the game mechanics. Some floating aztec juggernaughts would look awesome.


Actualy in the General's compendium there are a lot of rules on naval combat and on ships and the Lizardmen use aquatic lizards(crocs etc) as ships.

Bwian
05-21-2007, 13:59
I've seen stuff on the GW website about the use of 'living ships' by the Lizards. Fits more with their general ethos than relying on rafts to cover large oceans!

alexader
05-21-2007, 15:21
tell me now that brettonia has advandaged technology in ships of 17th century with cannons and the empire has stayed back with old medieval ship with no cannons.and then why the brettonians don't use the cannons in land(they are tired to disembark them all the time)and the opposite to the empire.this would change the whole culture of the game.Aaa ok i got it now,brettonia has ships run by knights as crew,right??????:egypt:

Meneldil
05-21-2007, 16:17
Dude, that's the way GW wanted it to be. I guess if they ever make a new version of the game, things might change, but in Man O' War, Bretonia had a better and more modern fleet than the Empire.

It's not as weird as it seem at first sight. The Empire has little coasts, while Bretonia is constantly raided by Dark Elves, norse and undead pirates.

Bwian
05-21-2007, 17:52
Whichever way we work it, though, for a mod build tree, we would have to limit cannon armed ships to production once the faction actually has gunpowder and cannons. Don't intend to limit it to the very end as MTW2 does... but I will need to tie it to the building of a suitable buildin to making cannons as well as a shipyard.

Dogman55
05-21-2007, 23:57
Surely the offspring of the Slann would be more sophisticated than to only use rafts? They would not be able to use their magical abilities to transport lizardmen all the time, and that doesnt fit into the game mechanics. Some floating aztec juggernaughts would look awesome.

I guess that the warhammer fleet books were a bit before my time, heh... But from what I had read in the lizardmen army book, I had picked up a few things:

1) The Slann are Very skilled. The most powerful can topple mountains and create oceans. It's not hard to imagine a few of them being able to pool their magic together and transport an army.

2) From what I understood, the Lizardmen rarely venture out from Lustria. The rare occasions they do, it is because a sacred artefact had been stolen by raiders and they were sent to get it back. If it was on the continent of Lustria, The army would trudge it out on foot, not get transported.

3) But people are right, it wouldn't fit into game mechanics, and these things I hear of giant sea monsters sounds like fun!

Casuir
05-22-2007, 00:54
tell me now that brettonia has advandaged technology in ships of 17th century with cannons and the empire has stayed back with old medieval ship with no cannons.

Bretonnians dont have cannons on land because they choose not use them, not because they dont have the technology. Empire ships are equipped with cannon, right down to the lowest level. So do a couple of other races so limiting ships too a gunpowder event trigger is going to hurt some people.

Dave1984
05-22-2007, 09:40
and these things I hear of giant sea monsters sounds like fun!


In Man O'War, most of the Dark Elves' ships were basically huge sea monsters with towers strapped to their backs, so the idea certainly isn't inconceivable.

quadrille
05-22-2007, 23:03
Couldn't all human factions use the same types of ships, really? It does sound confusing and counter-intuitive that the bretonnians would have a more modern fleet than the empire IMO. I'm guessing naval combat won't be a major focus in this mod, anyway (save for the high elves and dark elves perhaps).

Just my :2cents:

DrZoidberg
05-23-2007, 16:45
I've seen pictures of the Slann ships back in the day. I've no idea if it's WH canon or not but they all looked like huge turtles with spikes around the shell. I doubt they where suposed to be used as transports but anyhoo.

baldemar
05-23-2007, 19:01
Hello guys i have been following this mod for some time now but never posted anything, but since i can give a little bit of help on this subject i made an account.

Man 'o war is outdated. there is some interesting art in the dark elves army book.
its at the first page of: a slave's tale. :book: page 56 of the rulebook. i dont know if i can post it here.
I've read a book about malus darkblade in this book he is on a dark elf corsair ship. it describes a kind of cannonball (some magic thing) so i suggest you give them a kind of gunpowder.

It also describes a encounter with coastal guard of Bretonnia, they use catapults to shoot down the corsair ship. its dicribed as a cog(dont know if this is spelled correct).

and last they encounter a nurgle ship, its a rotten cog and its almost worthless at range but when they try to board the ship the dark elves suffer much casualties. (maybe this is something you can use in your mod but doubt it).

I hope i can help you with this post
(srry for faults in my english)

greetings baldemar.

Bwian
05-23-2007, 21:07
Welcome aboard :beam:

Cog is the correct spelling ... it's a medieval ship, and not a fantasy vessel at all. We could use the same ships, or re-use stock MTW2 ships ... but there are also some quite individual and interesting ships to think about.

Ultimately, MTW2..same as the other TW games, do not go into depth with naval combat...so it's not a vital part of the mod. It is, however, something we can do well and add another feature. Thats what I would like to do.

Eufarius
05-23-2007, 22:11
this mod is going to be so awesome i can't wait to DL it:juggle2:

overkill1991
05-26-2007, 22:54
i have some images for ships but i dont know how to post them, i can just add the url, cant i put in an image from my images directory on my computer ?

but nevertheless, dwarfs use a ship called ironclad, empire uses a galleon, chaos uses a longship and orcs use a battle barge

if someone could tell me exactly how to post images ill add them asap

Casuir
05-27-2007, 09:11
You can find images of all man o war ships using google.

Pantsalot
07-06-2007, 22:47
Some races .. Dwarves for example... just wouldn't have ships in my opinion. Can't imagine a dwarf taking to the sea... so there would have to be some way to recruit mercenary ships for use.



http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99110214010&orignav=13

If u haven't found out yet about these then this might show that there
is some form of Dwarven dogs of war ship
but nevertheless, dwarfs use a ship called ironclad, empire uses a galleon, chaos uses a longship and orcs use a battle barge


I found this on a warhammer online of what I think was a fan club
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/zoneOverviews/BarakVarr/images/DwarfIronclad.jpg

Is this what we r needing?

http://warhammer.tentonhammer.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album16&id=DwarfPortofBarakVarr&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

This is it in-game

http://warhammer.tentonhammer.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album16&id=Pdwarf_007small&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

& this is apparently the port Barak Varr

& Good work :2thumbsup:
Would be nice to know on a clue on what date this will come
out for dl on (at least a season plz)

Spankfurt
07-06-2007, 23:16
In the slayer novels it rfers to a large dwarves steam ship that was once built, but then sank or something, so dwarves do use ships......I think you should make them look like floating tanks :idea2:

Lordy
07-06-2007, 23:37
Here, elf and lizardmen ships might help ya.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/highelves/getting-started/images/high-elf-ship.jpg

http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/painting/sails/images/mark_wback.jpg

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/gaming/boats/living_ship/images/angle.jpg&imgrefurl=http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/gaming/boats/living_ship/default.htm&h=362&w=580&sz=62&hl=en&start=107&um=1&tbnid=-ypMW4pSEMQu5M:&tbnh=84&tbnw=134&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhigh%2Belves%2Bship%26start%3D100%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

Lordy
07-06-2007, 23:46
Also, in the game Mark of chaos, it has some ships and buildings on that if u need something to work off.

To be honest though ships should be the last thing on the list, get all the races out first!

CMON U ELVES!

keravnos
07-07-2007, 00:57
and of course there is the civ3 mod which has ships and many of them, and all sorts of units... It has been going on for years, so it has most of its roster filled up.

DrZoidberg
07-07-2007, 13:15
and of course there is the civ3 mod which has ships and many of them, and all sorts of units... It has been going on for years, so it has most of its roster filled up.

I was on the team making that. Most models are far too low in detail to be used. And when zoomed in on, they're really crappy. But then again. If we don't care, but just want something. Sea battles aren't animated anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

Taranaich
07-08-2007, 00:51
Archelons for the Lizardmen! If we're not using the Arcanodon for the Engine of the Gods (presumably Arcanodon is just too rare and large a unit to bother with), perhaps we could have a seagoing Arcanodon for the Lizardmen?

I personally think it would be really neat for the Lizardmen trade boats to be rafts, and the "ships" to be big reptilian things on the campaign map. It would look awesome to invade shores or blockade a port with giant plesiosaurs.

Ciaran
07-08-2007, 10:11
Here (http://www.stephane.info/show.php?code=manowar&lg=fr) are some pics of the High Elves and Dark Elves Man O' War Fleet, from a french website.

I'll try and find more infos, but from what I remember, Elves had superior but more expensive fleets. Oddly, Bretonia had 17th century-like ships (and was described as a major sea power), while the Empire had medieval-looking ones.
The Norses (who were probably part of Chaos) had various kind of longships, the Dwarves got Steamships.
Rules were made for the undeads, but no figures were released (though I guess VC should get Empire ships with an undead look, and TK egyptian-like ships).

Edit : And here (http://dougram.battletechnology.org/TableTopGaming/GamesWorkshop/ManOWar/ManOWar.htm) is another site with loads of info, and a few other pics.

When was Man o´War published? That could explain a lot about inconsistent background, because of all races/factions, the Bretonians underwent the greatest changes in the different editions of Warhammer. They even started out, I believe, more or less as a copy of the Empire.

Phats
07-09-2007, 10:48
It would be great if you could spawn some rebel sea monsters.

Behemoth, Black Leviathan, Gargantuan, Kraken, Megaladon, Promethean, Sea Dragon, Sea Elemental, Triton

Bwian
07-09-2007, 19:58
Hmmm...sort of an alternative to pirates :laugh4:

Bwian
07-09-2007, 21:27
OK ...here are some of hte prospective lineups.

MTW2 seems to have 3 classes of ships, so each race will get 3 ships. You have 'light warships', 'heavy warships' and 'flagships'. There is only one actual model used on the stratmap, and it is basically an unmasted ship that gets the nation banner imposed on it as a flag/sail. There is no way to have multiple ships actually displaying on the map, since they are effectively 'admiral markers' rather than unit markers.

The actual ships are just the icons and used for combat resolution.

Dwarves:
Monitor ( light )
Ironclad ( heavy )
Dreadnought ( flag )

Chaos: ...er...really not sure here! Probably warped versions of the Empire ships. Nurgle plaguefleets are mentioned, but nothing for the other chaos factions.

Empire:
Wargalley ( light)
Wolfship ( heavy )
Greatship ( flag )

Bretonnia:
Buccaneer ( light)
Corsair ( heavy)
Galleon (flag )

High Elf:
Hawkship ( light )
Eagleship ( heavy )
Dragonship ( flag )

Dark Elf:
Doomreaver ( light )
???? (heavy )
Black Ark ( flag )

Orc:
Drillakilla ( light )
Bigchuka ( heavy )
Hulk (flag )

Skaven:
Warpraider (light )
Deathburner (heavy )
Doombringer (flag )

Lizardmen:
some swimming lizard things ????

Vampire Counts:
corrupted versions of the Empire fleets. Same ships, wrecked and crewed by the dead

Tomb Kings:
Some basic ships based on old styled Dhows, with a battle-barge for the Flag. Nothing canon, so best guess will be used based on old Egyptian ship designs.

Have I missed anyone ?

Lordy
07-09-2007, 21:55
Lizardmen use Sea Drakes, i posted a picture already in this thread but here it is again for you.

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/gaming/boats/living_ship/images/approach.jpg

Maybe you could just use 3 different ages of Sea Drake for the lizardmens ships.

Dogman55
07-10-2007, 06:34
Imo Lizardmen should only get one ship version... sailing isnt really there strong point... lol it could be there main weakness, besides slow movesments?

Bwian
07-10-2007, 08:54
There is no need for any race to have 'good' ships, but every race has to have some kind of sea travel to reach every part of the map. The Lizard' ssea drakes would provide transport and some combat power. The flagship could easily be a 'Venerable Sea drake' with increased stats. Easy to do.

DrZoidberg
07-10-2007, 10:59
Norse are chaos and they use longships and dragonships.

Casuir
07-11-2007, 17:42
Elves use dragonships, norse use kingships. Chaos had a full fleet lineup for each of the major powers in man o war, basic unit was a death galley and specialised units on top.

DrZoidberg
07-11-2007, 21:29
Elves use dragonships, norse use kingships. Chaos had a full fleet lineup for each of the major powers in man o war, basic unit was a death galley and specialised units on top.

Sorry, I used real world terminology. Bad mistake in this crowd :)

Bwian
07-11-2007, 23:32
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8104/ship1xo6.jpg

One Dwarf Ironclad for the strat map :beam:

Still got some serious issues with the strat map models..but specifically the textures. I could not get the thing to use the mod-folder for the textures AT ALL. Soon as I did, the game crashed. Took a bit of fiddling, but it did turn out to be the mod folder not working for strat map models.

I might need to add in the mod-path to find the textures... or I might just have to live with the problem :wall: At least I got them working!

DaCrAzYmOfO
07-12-2007, 03:13
Archelons for the Lizardmen! If we're not using the Arcanodon for the Engine of the Gods (presumably Arcanodon is just too rare and large a unit to bother with

Whats that? :jawdrop:

Arcanodons and the engine of the gods....SOUNDS NIFTY :clown:

:turtle:

Dogman55
07-12-2007, 04:41
as long as the lizardmen can get the basic big bad guys (Stegadons n the flame spitters, hell maybe even a carnosaur) i wont miss an engine of the gods >.>

Taranaich
07-12-2007, 12:15
The Engine of the Gods is basically a one-off unit for a Red Host of Tehenhauin, which consists of a massive stone gyroscope mounted on the back of an Arcanodon that summons comets to devastated the battlefield. An Arcanodon is the Lustrian equivalent of an Apatosaurus.

This is Neil Langdon's model, generally considered the archetypal EotG:
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5760/insanearcanodonsmallro2.jpg

A couple of other EotGs are seen in higher quality here (it's in French, but look at the pics!!! (http://fr.games-workshop.com/warhammer/lezards/modelisme/machine_dieux/index.asp)

I would miss the Arcanodon, the Lizardmen could do with the heavy artillery, but I think Lizardmen resources would be better spent on the regular units. Besides, the mighty Stegodon's more than enough for crushing and maiming hotblood infidels!

Bwian
07-12-2007, 23:11
Well ... now that I have sorted out the issues with the strat-map models, I have put all the ship units into the necessary sections, and removed the original entries for the unwanted vessels.

Just need to render up some unit cards for them now :2thumbsup:

Eufarius
07-13-2007, 03:39
Bwian that ship looks cool. you cant add smoke to it ?

like coming off its exhaust?

Bwian
07-13-2007, 09:26
I could add some static smoke through an alpha texture, but it isn't as easy as it sounds to make it look good. I will give it a try and see how it looks. No way to animate it though... the strat map skeleton doesn't have that much detail to play animation games with!

My next job, though, is to make the unit cards up for these units. I plan to make some basic meshes and just render up some icons for the unit cards. I have diagrams of most to work from, so it shouldn't be too hard!

Pantsalot
07-13-2007, 22:16
Maybe it would be a good idea to continue with more important projects
on this mod then the ships right now. Do u guys even have a warhammer map
made yet?

Detlef
07-13-2007, 22:54
yup, they do... Check out "A world to play in"

Jargon
07-14-2007, 01:34
Maybe Bwian doesnt want to burn himself out on just doing unit models and textures. If he wants to release the professional looking campaign he has planned then faction specfic ships will have to be done eventually anyway.

Bwian
07-14-2007, 11:43
Chill out Pantsalot .... everything needs to be made at some point, and I have been churning out new units on a pretty regular basis.

Casuir is working on the map, and we have all the major landmasses in place, the territories laid out, and just need to finish off the detail of the terrain textures. It's not something I am working on, so me doing this is no holdup.

Likewise, all the unit cards need doing, the text for the unit descriptions needs assembling, and the work is ready to start on the building trees ...

Ships have to be built .... so why NOT do them?

Gives me a break from making more soldiers :whip: :whip:

Jubal_Barca
07-14-2007, 14:28
Are you adding Araby as a faction, becuase they were good sailors and merchants, think arabic (well duh) ships. Also I feel the need to demand slayer pirate ships...

I don't yet have M2TW, but is ther any way the skaven could have, like, tunnels rather than ships? They'd be naff sailors and I believe they get around by tunnels in the fluff...

Bwian
07-14-2007, 16:01
Man O War rules gave the Skaven ships ... so there does seem to be a precedent for rats at sea. Sort of traditional! I presume they jump overboard before the ship actually sinks :beam:

Taranaich
07-14-2007, 17:34
MTW2 seems to have 3 classes of ships, so each race will get 3 ships. You have 'light warships', 'heavy warships' and 'flagships'. There is only one actual model used on the stratmap, and it is basically an unmasted ship that gets the nation banner imposed on it as a flag/sail. There is no way to have multiple ships actually displaying on the map, since they are effectively 'admiral markers' rather than unit markers.

So, this means that there's only one ship model for each race? Is there enough room for each faction to have a ship suitable for them, or will some have to "double up" like in the culture slots?

Also, awesome ironclad! Is this the first M2 mod to have modded ships in it?

Bwian
07-14-2007, 18:29
None of the ships actually have 'models' as such, just one model to represent an admiral on the stratmap. I think there can be only one model, so I am choosing the mid-range one each time.

Each vessel will have a unit card, as per stock ships. I will make some simple meshes for them and render up the pictures for the cards. Won't take long to do, and then I am back to the units proper :clown:

DrZoidberg
01-28-2008, 19:50
After what has been close to a six months hiatus from adding texts, I've picked up the baton once again.

Bwian gave me the great honour of not only writing the descriptions of the various ships, but also to do some research, and if necessary make shit up to fit the bill. Since Warhammer is such a rich universe, I'd rather stick to canon than my own fantasy. This has served me well since Man O'War has most races covered and give tactical and cultural explanations which will make a fun, and possibly educational read. All went well until I got to Lizardmen and Undead.

Sometimes research can backfire. The ships for the Undead look and sound like they've been pulled out of somebodies ass. They don't really fit in. Rather than ignore them and set it straight, I thought I'd turn to you guys to offer me your opinions.

What we need as far as Total War is concerned is three ships for each faction.
Light, heavy and flagship. All with corresponding dockyard buildings in cities.

Lizardmen

Official canon gives Lizardmen one "ship" and that's the Dragon Turtle. As far as I can tell from pictures I've found, it is also known, (back in the Old World) as a Sea Drake. If these are different, they sure look the same. It's basically a big turtle that can take about 15 Sauruses a pop. A bunch of Dragon Turtles and we have a Lizardman invasion fleet.

Anybody know of any more boats or creatures Lizardmen use? We could use small, large and huge Dragon Turtle...but that isn't supported by what I've read about them. My suggestion is that they only have one type of "ship". Just as in Total War some factions simply have a useless navy. If they want a powerful navy, they'll just have to have lots of turtles.

Thoughts on this?

Von Carsteins and Tomb Kings

In Man O'War they have together a fleet consisting of:

Specter
A small ship that causes fear. Seems pretty useless and hard to see it having any practical use other than a minor support role.

Skullrammer
A ship with a ram. A common type of ship in Man O'War and seems to be in it, not because it makes any sense, but because it made Man O'War more fun to play.

Floating Necropolis
So, who's idea is this? Sounds cool, but for fucks sake? Necropolis... floating? Is it just me or is this simply a really dumb idea?

Skullchukka
This is a wee bit more interesting, even though it has a silly and Orcish name. A ship build out of bones with a huge bone catapult. Why bones? Why not build it out of wood? For Tomb Kings this would make sense, since there's nothing living there at all. But Von Carsteins live in the woods.

Boneripper
Also a all bone ship with some heinous murderous contraption that I've failed to identify.

Ghostship
A non-ethereal ship that floats around and terrifies people. Not really useful in TW since it can't transport troops.

Deathship
These are galleys made out of bones with undead sailors.

Worth pointing out is that these don't come from any official rules, but from a magazine called Citadel Journal. But it's Games Workshop, so it's semi-canon.

Needless to say, we need completely different fleets for Tomb Kings and Von Carsteins.

So guys, thoughts on this?

I have a suggestion:

In Von Carstein history there's a Black Ship mentioned, which is a galleon. We can make that into a type, if we want to. But that ship was manned by very much alive sailors. I think we should aim for old European ships, like galleons. I think it fits the Dracula mood?

Caravel (light), Carack, (heavy), Galleon, (flag). Of course it would be crewed by zombie sailors, the sails would be ripped, and constantly enveloped in mist and propelled by ghostly magical winds. How about that suggestions?

Now for the Tomb Kings.

I like the Deathship from Man O'War. A galley is of course a great way to propel a ship where the oarsmen will never get tired. Also I like the idea of having a ship with a huge bone catapult, but to rename it. Tomb Kings call their catapults, Screaming Skulls, so why not keep to the nomenclature?

Bonegalley, (light)
A small galley.

Deathgalley, (heavy)
A large galley with an archer contingency to pelt their opponents.

Screaming skull galley, (flag).
The biggest galley featuring a large screaming skull catapult?

So how about this suggestion? Anybody else have a better idea. When there is a Warhammer canon, I think it should have precedence, but in this case the info is flimsy.

[IMG]http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7533/pic144938mdvz0.jpg
[URL="http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/gaming/boats/living_ship/default.htm"]
dragon turtle picture
(http://imageshack.us)

Taranaich
01-29-2008, 00:56
Anybody know of any more boats or creatures Lizardmen use? We could use small, large and huge Dragon Turtle...but that isn't supported by what I've read about them.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me. Reptiles tend to keep growing throughout their lives, and so some very old individuals could reach huge sizes, so dragon turtles of different ages could be used in different roles: juvenile turtles with, say, 7 saurus crew could function as light attack craft, the 15-saurus crew could be the archetype Dragon Turtle, but there could also be rare, ancient Dragon Turtles with perhaps 30 saurus capacity.

Some of the ships look quite nasty (seen those Slaanesh blade things? Crazy!), but some do seem rather daft, like the floating necropolis. Just go with what you think's most suitable.

DrZoidberg
01-29-2008, 18:57
It seems perfectly reasonable to me. Reptiles tend to keep growing throughout their lives, and so some very old individuals could reach huge sizes, so dragon turtles of different ages could be used in different roles: juvenile turtles with, say, 7 saurus crew could function as light attack craft, the 15-saurus crew could be the archetype Dragon Turtle, but there could also be rare, ancient Dragon Turtles with perhaps 30 saurus capacity.

Some of the ships look quite nasty (seen those Slaanesh blade things? Crazy!), but some do seem rather daft, like the floating necropolis. Just go with what you think's most suitable.

ok, I'll buy that. According to Warhammer lore the sea is jam packed with nastyness and nothing gets ancient in it. But still, they're rare, so I guess it could work.

How about names? "Small", "medium" and "large" doesn't work for me. These are menacing sea monsters and not an order of fries. I want the name to convey what they are. Some poetic licence.

How about. Snapping Dragon Turtle, (young/light) Bull Dragon Turtle, (mature/heavy) and Ancient Dragon Turtle, (ancient/flag)?


Yeah, chaos is covered as far as ships are concearned, and they're pretty cool. The Khorne shark is a bit silly, but all the other ones I think will work great. I love the Slaanesh perfume censer ship seducing enemy crews. Looks great to. The Chaos ships are official Warhammer canon so I'm keeping them as they are.

Taranaich
01-29-2008, 23:22
ok, I'll buy that. According to Warhammer lore the sea is jam packed with nastyness and nothing gets ancient in it. But still, they're rare, so I guess it could work.

If any sea creature could have a chance at a free bus pass, I'd put my money on the one with the inbuilt armour. :turtle:


How about names? "Small", "medium" and "large" doesn't work for me. These are menacing sea monsters and not an order of fries. I want the name to convey what they are. Some poetic licence.

How about. Snapping Dragon Turtle, (young/light) Bull Dragon Turtle, (mature/heavy) and Ancient Dragon Turtle, (ancient/flag)?

Sounds good. :2thumbsup:


Yeah, chaos is covered as far as ships are concearned, and they're pretty cool. The Khorne shark is a bit silly, but all the other ones I think will work great. I love the Slaanesh perfume censer ship seducing enemy crews. Looks great to. The Chaos ships are official Warhammer canon so I'm keeping them as they are.

Bwahahah, eeexcellent. *steeples fingers*

DrZoidberg
01-31-2008, 18:43
Considering the masses of posts regarding this the last couple of days, I'm overwhelmed by the huge interest of these obscure little details of the game, as ships.

Ok, I get it. Nobody cares and I can do what I want to with the WH fleets. But now I know at least. :clown:

DrZoidberg
01-31-2008, 19:33
I even found a handy Man O'War ship comparison to help us with making the stats for it.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/allender/cccmanow.htm

Emblemseeker
02-01-2008, 06:58
I'm forced to make my opinion heard here....

High Elves should have the fastest ships (if thats possible) and some nice sea trade, what with being the dominant seagoing civilization. (its true, in the army book anyways) They were the first to map the oceans and have been doing so for millenniums. They also have very powerful ships, crewed by the highly skilled Lothern seaguard who use both spear and bow (not sure if that means anything in m2tw) and are equipped with the eagles claw bolt thrower, which is really good. Although other sides may have massive steel plates and unpredictable cannons no other nation has crew/navigators close to as good as the high elves (save perhaps the dark elves)

conclusion: High elves should have quick/powerful/cost effective ships, maybe slightly less defense to represent less crew/no thick armor plates, maybe on average best ships IMO (I have NO idea what numbers the m2tw uses tho)

Also, Dark Elve's Black Arcs should be
THE MOST POWERFUL SHIPS IN THE GAME.
According to the descriptions I have heard of them (accounts given at the end of the sundering and in the wars to follow) black arcs are ENTIRE CITY FORTRESSES enchanted to float upon the water. So they should be super tough (its got a freaking city wall for armor! and in the books they mention that its a big deal when one gets destroyed), Super powerful (lots of witches and dozens/hundred of bolt throwers), un-godly expensive and take forever before new ones become available (making a new one requires either building a new castle or re-enchanting a grounded one, storyline-wise), and slow as thick molasses on an Alaskan winter night (well actually I have no proof on that, but you have to make them fair somehow) but because of their rarity I don't think they should be the star map icon for the dark elves, they have way more corsair ships and are primarily piratical seafarers

(wow, didn't expect my "black arcs should be really good" thing to be bigger than my "High Elves should get among the best ships" thing)
(In case you didn't notice, I am a firm believer of the supremacy of the elves over all. Be they Dark, Wood or the Supreme Asur)
(I have also been watching this mod for a while in the hopes that it would own, turns out I was right, you guys rock :yes: :yes: )

Myrddraal
02-01-2008, 17:13
Welcome Emblemseeker! :bow:

DrZoidberg
02-01-2008, 18:32
I'm forced to make my opinion heard here....

High Elves should have the fastest ships (if thats possible) and some nice sea trade, what with being the dominant seagoing civilization. (its true, in the army book anyways) They were the first to map the oceans and have been doing so for millenniums. They also have very powerful ships, crewed by the highly skilled Lothern seaguard who use both spear and bow (not sure if that means anything in m2tw) and are equipped with the eagles claw bolt thrower, which is really good. Although other sides may have massive steel plates and unpredictable cannons no other nation has crew/navigators close to as good as the high elves (save perhaps the dark elves)

conclusion: High elves should have quick/powerful/cost effective ships, maybe slightly less defense to represent less crew/no thick armor plates, maybe on average best ships IMO (I have NO idea what numbers the m2tw uses tho)

Also, Dark Elve's Black Arcs should be
THE MOST POWERFUL SHIPS IN THE GAME.
According to the descriptions I have heard of them (accounts given at the end of the sundering and in the wars to follow) black arcs are ENTIRE CITY FORTRESSES enchanted to float upon the water. So they should be super tough (its got a freaking city wall for armor! and in the books they mention that its a big deal when one gets destroyed), Super powerful (lots of witches and dozens/hundred of bolt throwers), un-godly expensive and take forever before new ones become available (making a new one requires either building a new castle or re-enchanting a grounded one, storyline-wise), and slow as thick molasses on an Alaskan winter night (well actually I have no proof on that, but you have to make them fair somehow) but because of their rarity I don't think they should be the star map icon for the dark elves, they have way more corsair ships and are primarily piratical seafarers

(wow, didn't expect my "black arcs should be really good" thing to be bigger than my "High Elves should get among the best ships" thing)
(In case you didn't notice, I am a firm believer of the supremacy of the elves over all. Be they Dark, Wood or the Supreme Asur)
(I have also been watching this mod for a while in the hopes that it would own, turns out I was right, you guys rock :yes: :yes: )

My job is simply to write the little descriptions of the ships. The unit cards. So as far as stats are concerned I'm a humble advisor. But I'm compiling a list of recommendations if there is information to be found. Man O'War spells out each factions strength and weaknesses in detail. Eleven ships are cost effective and fast. But also have low firepower and are fairly frail. But they do have long range. So they can beat a stronger opponent by just continuously peppering them with their swivel mounted repeating bolt throwers, as they keep their distance. But it's not much of an advantage when they meet a ship like the Dwarf Drednaught, Orc Hulk or much faster flying ship of Tzeentch.

The Black Arc, is actually just one specific fortress, (but I've interpreted it as a type) which because of an elven magical flood caused a large part of land to break free. Dark Elf wizards thought fast and kept it magically afloat, with such strong magic that it became permanent. But if you know anything about how magic "leaks" in Warhammer, they do best in keeping it away from anything civilized for any length of time.

Jonlissla
02-02-2008, 17:38
and slow as thick molasses on an Alaskan winter night

No offense, but that wouldn't really be an effective ship. I mean, sure, they would be very powerful, but it won't really matter if you can't catch the enemy ships. :laugh4:

Using it as an immovable blockade ship might work though.....:idea2:

Underway
02-03-2008, 17:39
The Black Arc, is actually just one specific fortress, (but I've interpreted it as a type) which because of an elven magical flood caused a large part of land to break free. Dark Elf wizards thought fast and kept it magically afloat, with such strong magic that it became permanent. But if you know anything about how magic "leaks" in Warhammer, they do best in keeping it away from anything civilized for any length of time.


As a long time player of Man-o-war and a Dark Elf fleet efficianado this is only partially correct.

When the Sundering took place and the massive waves smashed into the Nagrathe citadels, many citadels were created that became Black Arcs. The largest of which formed the cores of Naggarond, and Clar Karond.

If you read the history of the Dark Elves you will notice there are a large number of different Black Arcs. A few names for fun..

-Jade Palace of Pain - Used to create the reborn Anlec (Malekith's ancient capital) in Ulthuanan during the latest invasion of Ulthuan
-Palace of Oblivion
-The Kraken Spire
-Obsidian Demise
-Talon of Agony (sunk by HE Dragonship using a Starblade Ram)
-Poison Palace
-Naggor (of Malus Darkblade comic's fame, renamed Nagor after the Mast Rebellion)

Man-o-war Dark elf fleet consists of

Doomreavers - sea chariots pulled by Seadrakes, they have no shooting ability but can be goaded into a ship destroying frenzy

Deathfortresses - small keeps or towers built upon the back of seadragons (don't breath fire). They shoot the dreaded Reaper Bolt thrower from the numerous towers.

Black Arc - Massive floating castles and keeps. Deadly in boarding actions, protected by sorcerous mists to foil aiming attempts, have a beastgate to hold the rest of the DE fleet inside (they are like iceburgs underneath). Protected by a maze of traps to foil enemy boarding actions.

Other DE ships in the Warhammer canon:

-Slave powered galley's. From the 6th ed DE book pg 57, fast and powered by slave oarsmen these are designed to go and assist in raiding enemy settlements as they carry more storage space than the Hydra ships.

-Hydra Ship. From Generals compendium and Black Gobbo online magazine. Fast catamaran that carries Corsairs. Not very sturdy in combat and no warmachines but excellent for closing quickly and initiating boarding actions.

Dark Elves are also known for ensorcelling other types of sea monsters to guard their oceanic approaches.

Underway
02-03-2008, 17:49
No offense, but that wouldn't really be an effective ship. I mean, sure, they would be very powerful, but it won't really matter if you can't catch the enemy ships. :laugh4:

Using it as an immovable blockade ship might work though.....:idea2:


Actually in the MoW game they are fairly quick, massive bank of sails have them move 9" with the wind (fairly fast, only HE ships move faster at 6" in move phase and 6" in shoot phase for a 12" total) and without the wind they always move 6" by magical propulsion. With the wind they can actually outpace their seamonster escorts!!

They are also able to push enemy ships out of the way without colliding, very effective way to barge into an enemy formation and give them broadsides/boarding actions from every direction. The Black Arc is by far the most dangerous ship in Man-o-war. Their support ships however leave something to be desired in a number of circumstances.

DrZoidberg
02-03-2008, 18:01
As a long time player of Man-o-war and a Dark Elf fleet efficianado this is only partially correct.

When the Sundering took place and the massive waves smashed into the Nagrathe citadels, many citadels were created that became Black Arcs. The largest of which formed the cores of Naggarond, and Clar Karond.

If you read the history of the Dark Elves you will notice there are a large number of different Black Arcs. A few names for fun..

-Jade Palace of Pain - Used to create the reborn Anlec (Malekith's ancient capital) in Ulthuanan during the latest invasion of Ulthuan
-Palace of Oblivion
-The Kraken Spire
-Obsidian Demise
-Talon of Agony (sunk by HE Dragonship using a Starblade Ram)
-Poison Palace
-Naggor (of Malus Darkblade comic's fame, renamed Nagor after the Mast Rebellion)

Man-o-war Dark elf fleet consists of

Doomreavers - sea chariots pulled by Seadrakes, they have no shooting ability but can be goaded into a ship destroying frenzy

Deathfortresses - small keeps or towers built upon the back of seadragons (don't breath fire). They shoot the dreaded Reaper Bolt thrower from the numerous towers.

Black Arc - Massive floating castles and keeps. Deadly in boarding actions, protected by sorcerous mists to foil aiming attempts, have a beastgate to hold the rest of the DE fleet inside (they are like iceburgs underneath). Protected by a maze of traps to foil enemy boarding actions.

Other DE ships in the Warhammer canon:

-Slave powered galley's. From the 6th ed DE book pg 57, fast and powered by slave oarsmen these are designed to go and assist in raiding enemy settlements as they carry more storage space than the Hydra ships.

-Hydra Ship. From Generals compendium and Black Gobbo online magazine. Fast catamaran that carries Corsairs. Not very sturdy in combat and no warmachines but excellent for closing quickly and initiating boarding actions.

Dark Elves are also known for ensorcelling other types of sea monsters to guard their oceanic approaches.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

Jonlissla
02-03-2008, 21:44
Actually in the MoW game they are fairly quick, massive bank of sails have them move 9" with the wind (fairly fast, only HE ships move faster at 6" in move phase and 6" in shoot phase for a 12" total) and without the wind they always move 6" by magical propulsion. With the wind they can actually outpace their seamonster escorts!!

They are also able to push enemy ships out of the way without colliding, very effective way to barge into an enemy formation and give them broadsides/boarding actions from every direction. The Black Arc is by far the most dangerous ship in Man-o-war. Their support ships however leave something to be desired in a number of circumstances.

I feel beaten.... :shame:



Right, so you mean that DE got a huge 5-Star hotel with wheels and sniper positions, and a big-ass engine to outrun a Ferrari? That's it, I'm gonna stick to land skirmishes instead! :laugh4:

corvion
02-04-2008, 03:28
hello everyone i've been following this mod for several months now and i am incredibly impressed with both the quality and quantity of work done, you guys are awesome

although it looks like you've got some names for all the ships i recently read the defenders of ulthuan and the DE use a ship called a Raven (appears to be similar the the HE eagleships) anyways just thought i would put that out there for you i have quite a few fluff novels and army books (not all up to date but...) so let me know if there is any info you need and i can try to dig it up

keep up the great work

DrZoidberg
02-04-2008, 18:55
hello everyone i've been following this mod for several months now and i am incredibly impressed with both the quality and quantity of work done, you guys are awesome

although it looks like you've got some names for all the ships i recently read the defenders of ulthuan and the DE use a ship called a Raven (appears to be similar the the HE eagleships) anyways just thought i would put that out there for you i have quite a few fluff novels and army books (not all up to date but...) so let me know if there is any info you need and i can try to dig it up

keep up the great work

FYI, we're not doing all the ships. Just three for each faction. It's a question of practicality and usefulness in the game. Naval warfare isn't exactly a huge feature in TW.