Suggestion Box

[Bwian]

Trawling through the various popular threads in teh forum, there are lots of people making suggestions, having ideas, and generally thinking up things they would like to see in the mod.

Some are good ideas, some are nice if we could do them ideas, and some are pie in the sky impossible ideas. But...they are all ideas!

Trouble is, things tend to get lost as a forum grows. Lots of suggestions are in the Eye Candy thread, others are in the faction threads ...but all run the risk of vanishing!

Thats what this thread is for:

Post your ideas here.... but DO NOT POST COMMENTS ON OTHER PEOPLES IDEAS. This is not a discussion thread..just a place to drop ideas that we may or may not be able to use. I will edit the threads to comment if an idea is possible or could never be done, and I will remove any posts that are not ideas....but are merely comments on someone else's idea.

This is purely for Brainstorming ... and you never know when a crazy of the wall idea might just end up possible!

Suggestion Summary:

Ellydog: Strong generals.
Possible, and something that will be worked in as our way of representing heroes and champions.

Bloodclaw: Building names.
Probably Possible. We are somewhat limited in terms of cultures as to how much building variation we can have. We will try to make buildings as unique as possible in terms of names, but there may be some generic naming forced upon us.

Jargon: a few suggestions!
Possible. A light missile unit for the mounted marauders is already made. This is listed under the armybook units as an allowable variation. Axes will be the weapon of choice, with a throwing spear to open the battle. Unit names are working titles, and will probably be fluffed up a little

Dr Zoidberg : Thread to collect names for characters.
Possible. Feel free to start one!

Taranaich: Lots of Lizardman ideas!
Need to research a little more before I can say how much of tis we can do. Whatever, the ideas you outlined will be helpful when we plan the makeup of hte Lizards armies. Lots of units suggestions which we will make use of!
The animated mouths may or may not be possible in the way you outlined...but I have done lots of things like that before.

KrazySigmarite: Officers as Heroes.
Possbile...and almost certainly the way we are going to approach this for the campaign play.

Dead Guy: Traits idea.
Meneldil has answered this one for you..and he is the guy whi is working on this element for us :D. This will be in there.

[ellydog]

Well just sopmething I would like to see; very strong army generals.

[Blood Claw]

Well, I am sure I will probably have more suggestions but for now there is really only one that I can think of.

If it is possible, to go and rename the buildings in the towns so instead of the barracks or similar thing, you could rename it to something that fits in with the army such as "Spawning Pool" for the Lizardmen or something like that.

[Jargon]

Some good ideas from the Chaos Thread:

A Chaos faction that kills the other three factions (or just stays alive the longest) gets the title Everchosen. Somehow link to getting access to all Chaos factions troops, such as by an event.

Add Run Amok ability to units with Frenzy.

Possibly make a light skirmishing mounted unit similar to Jinetes using Marauder graphics. Could act as a scout and light support. Be careful that they cannot be abused too much, as they could take away from Chaos’s heavy assault doctrine.

Think about renaming Veteran or Experienced units to something more interesting and with more flavour. Chosen, Battle Hardend, etc.

[DrZoidberg]

We should start a thread/document where we start collecting existing peoples names from WH. Any and all that have featured in any Warhammer publication or White Dwarf. It will always add to the ambience to recognise famous peoples names from the game in the mod.

...and sort them by faction. Minor rebel factions are also factions.

This isn't a major job but takes lots of time. Anybody with access to Warhammer stuff can do it and is a good thing to get going as soon as possible. Idealy we'd need some sort of wiki or common document we can all update together.

edit: Not only people but also creatures....duh..

[Taranaich]

A few ideas I had on Lizardmen, not high priority at the moment but I thought I'd just post them here:

Since there is a lot of variations in the Lizardman army when Blessed Spawnings are introduced, perhaps each lizardmen unit could be based on these for variety and aesthetics. They could be based on luck, or perhaps even choices for the player, or upgrades of the common-or-garden Lizardmen.

Saurus Warriors: Sotek (red skin/scales/crests. Strong, ferocious warriors)
Temple Guard: Tlazcotl (yellow skin/scales/crests. Patient and disciplined)
Saurus Cavalry: Itzl (Large bony crests. They release a musk that calms Cold ones, making them more controllable than normal)
Skinks: Chotec the Sun God (vibrant orange skin/scales/crests. Much more energy than other lizardmen, so would make great skirmishers and mobile infantry)
Chameleon Skinks: Haunchi (since they're so successful no markings have been reported, perhaps just shadows or black markings. Can pass through undergrowth and thick foliage with ease, making great ambushers.)
Skink Priests: Tepok (purple skin/scales/crest. Resistant to magic, don't know how that could translate to game: perhaps higher morale or resistance to fire)
Kroxigor: Quetzl (Bony growths and pointy bits. Hardier than other lizardmen)

Chameleon Skinks: to make them blend in, perhaps using alpha channels to make them semi-transparent, just for the aesthetic. Since there isn't a way to make units less accurate when shooting them, perhaps have them spaced out further than other units so arrows have a smaller chance of hitting. The gun animation could be used as a base for the blowpipe.

Cold Ones: it would be strange to hear Cold Ones neigh like horses, so perhaps use the camel setup since camels sound a bit more like big reptiles. I don't know if you can swap the skeletons to change the mount's sound effects, but it's worth a try. Would cause fear to infantry and mounted as a predator.

Salamander: can be implemented using War Dogs, but they probably couldn't breath fire, so unless some way could be found to do that perhaps should be left out. Would cause fear to infantry and mounted as a predator.

Stegadon: pretty much essential for a Lizardmen army, could just use the elephant. Someone made a pretty decent Triceratops for RTW, so just add spikes and a thagomizer. Interestingly the Stegadon is Immune to Panic, so perhaps they have higher morale than elephants, though I guess they'd be likely to run amok. They'd have four skink skirmishers on their howdahs, though a variant with a ballista could be made too. Would cause fear to infantry and mounted as a predator.

Carnosaur: not essential, but could also use the elephant skeleton. Perhaps not weighting the arms to make it bipedal, and fiddling about with the trunk bones might give the impression of its mouth chomping. Unless a specific mount can be added to a captain, or a one-person unit can be made it might not be worth it, but since a single siege engine has been seen (Monster Bombard) perhaps a single mount can be done. Would cause fear to infantry and mounted as a predator.

Generals/Captains: I think a Slaan Mage-Priest would be most suitable for a family member, and a Saurus Oldblood for a captain. Don't know how best the Mage-Priest would be represented, since he's largely immobile perhaps having him stuck on a big mechanical unit like the Carroccio or Great Cross, or a unique siege unit like the Monster Bombard. The bodyguard would be a beefed-up Temple Guard. Alternatively, Oldbloods could be family members and Scar-Veterans captains, with the Mage-Priest as a siege unit. Scar-Veterans, Skink Chiefs and Skink Priests could be officers, or very small elite units.

Other

Swimming: if the can_swim ability can be used, then the skinks, kroxigors and salamanders could have it to represent their Aquatic rule. If they could also somehow swim faster and not lose as much fatigue as human units, it could be a viable and interesting tactical option.

Poison: I don't know how poison could be represented, perhaps reduced moral would be easiest. Alternatively, if we base it on the flaming missile attack but change it so that they only "combust" after a few minutes, it could represent the poison taking effect and eventually killing the victim. Could also be used for Skaven and Nurgle disease units.

Drain Magic: Again, unsure, but could be a missile attack used by Skink Priests, and while the attack power could be negligible, would have a strong effect on morale or possibly energy to make the target unit more fatigued.

[Taranaich]

Darn it, I forgot to add this in the previous post but hopefully someone will merge these two posts:

To nab an idea from Blue Lotus' Koijin mercenaries, you could weight the upper part of a Saurus/Skink/Kroxigor etc's head to the head bone, but the lower jaw to the neck/torso bone. This could give a neat impression of the model opening/closing its jaws when in combat, looks particularly good when charging with two-handed weapons. It isn't perfect, as sometimes it can look a little dislocated and slack-jawed, but I personally think it's better than having immobile faces either open or closed all the time. A similar process could be used for other models with big nasty jaws like Skaven or Khorne Flesh Hounds.

[Krazysigmarite]

Something I've been thinking about as a way to implement hero units. Basically the idea is that the actual "Hero" will be an Officer model. The unit will be his bodyguard, hopefully the smallest possible unit size (20?). I understand officers for units simply use the unit's stats. Therefore, the bodyguard could be fairly powerful in combat, but small and very expensive.

For example, a Vampire Thrall could be surrounded by a unit of grave guard. The benefit of having the hero in the army would be firstly to give morale bonuses to surrounding troops (not that it would make a difference with undead...), and secondly to have a solid infantry (or cavalry, depending on the hero type) unit that will hold it's ground and be reliable.

The same would go for other standard 'leader-type' units - Empire Warrior Priests, Bretonnian Paladins... In fact, for game purposes, to represent "Leader-types" in Warhammer: Total War, we could simply give each team a "Morale" unit. For example, Black Orcs boost morale of surrounding orcs because they are disciplined, and the other orcs understand that failure to behave could lead to being on the receiving end of a face-bashin'.

Just some ideas and brainstorming, a bit scattered I realise. I just wish there was a nice way to implement hero units, as they play a very large role in Warhammer, and are very cool aesthetically.

[Dead Guy]

Hi!

I've been reading a lot of the posts here over the last few days and I'm very excited about this mod. I'm an old undead player, later Vampire Counts.

So from what I understand it's completely impossible to implement any kind of rarising the dead during combat, which I guess is no that surprising. People have been discussing letting undead hire cheap mercenaries to represent raising 'core' troops like skeletons. Would it be possible to give undead generals some kind of necromancy trait/ancillary that dramatically raised their casualty recovery? Sort of like how you gain troops in heroes of might and magic as a necromoancer, but probably it will be hard to make it dependent upon enemies slain... This may not be entirely WH-canon since it would affect the recovery of more powerful creatures like black knights etc, but might be an ok way to represent a winning undead army raising the fallen to fight for them again. Sorry if this was better suited for the VC-specific forum.

Keep up the outstanding work, looking forward to what may be the best representation of WHFB on the PC to date!

Cheers!
:skull:

[Meneldil]

It has already been suggested in the Trait and ancillaries thread, and yeah, it will be done ;)

[FerrusTheBlack]

I joined this forum because I am quite excited about this mod and have been monitoring it (or to be more accurate, lurking) since it first popped up. Seeing how everyone seem to have opened up new topics instead of placing them here for ideas... I decided to be a good boy and post mine here seeing how neglected this topic looked =p

Not that I am sure if what I am suggesting applies to M2TW (i am still playin RTW)as I have as yet to buy the game (i am waiting for this mod to be finished....) but considering the aging of generals and leaders... What happens to all the elven factions, dwarfs, and the undead? My understanding is that the warhammer elves are immortal unless killed in battle (I need to reread the elven codex to be sure though), the undead and vampires are...well 'undying' and the dwarfs are a longed lived race though not immortal.

So if it is possible, can you make the elves immortal(as in long lived)? To offset this, you can have negative 2 or more to fertility as the elves were/are infamously infertile. All that goody/evil/neutral, uppity/sadistic/disinterest, civilised/fetish crazed/barbaric way of life tends to stunt ones sex drive.... Most of their armies are led by nobility and if you are elves, youre only meant to have a few armies anyway, not a stack horde.

The undead should not be able to reproduce since the tomb kings have more than likely, have their 'very vital organs' for reproducing stacked in a jar somewhere in the middle tier of the pyramid... However this is pretty bad if he gets killed so a bodyguard general unit should be made recruitable in their capital with the ability to gain traits but is briefly 'animated' for several decades before dying. (seen such units before though only in rtw mods). The tomb kings tend to boss around their dead subordinates so i dont see a problem with this though the general unit should be suitably priced. Likewise, the tombking should get massive command and administrative benefits to offset this and will tempt the player to use their king in important battles (i cant see a tombking patrolling the frontiers of his undead empire, can you?)

Vampires cannot have offspring but they can 'turn' people. This can be represented by placing generals on the wider map (sparingly of course and without an army) who are neutral to all sides and be bribed into the faction. If M2TW follows RTW in this then the character will be part of your family and can receive the trait 'undying' or whatever you want to call it the following turn, which mean they can never grow old but be killed in battle(though they should be tough). The carstein family can start off with a limited amount of 'old' nobility but most of them have been turned already or are VERY dead from their wars against the empire. Which means no offspring at all. However do you have 'man of the hour' events or something similar? In that case, a human vassal has shown his worthiness to become part of the bloodline and can easily represent him being 'turned'.

Dwarfs can live to several hundred years but must also suffer from infertility. All you have to do is make it very low enough not to be impossible but is goin to take a while before the dwarf gets a twinkle in the eye saying, 'its time to breed...' Or even better, if you can make him suddenly fertile with a 100% chance of having children in a very small time frame of his life, like when he is 300 yrs of age and becomes infertile when he is 320 yrs of age... (too much ale..) I believe 260 yrs of age is when he is still a beardling so that could be the starting age for the main dwarf king or some of his family members.... need to read up on Grudgebearer for that though. The king should be older than 260 though so the closer he is to producing an heir the better. Infact this idea can also be applied to the elves but altered slightly to make it more race specific and unique... but I cant elaborate at the moment because it is 5am in the morning and I am wondering what the hell am i doing up so late..

Of course the coming of age for both dwarfs and elves should be affected though not too long. 80-100 years should be enough for both although it won't be strictly fluff wise. few people could wait beyond or even to the 80-100 yr benchmark unless they were true warhammer fluff addicts.

Well thats about it because I am very brain dead at the moment. I have more ideas but i reckon its time for a nap.

[Bwian]

Good ideas :D, and a subject we will need to give thought to before we are done

[FerrusTheBlack]

Just checked up on "Grudgebearer" And it seemed 50 yrs of age is considered a beardling by the dwarfs, but the first time (i believe) that the holding's prince fought in a battle... bah this is a headache. Need more research...

Reading "Gilead's Blood", an elven novel, and 27yrs of age was the first time that gilead's brother fought.

So yea... it seems that i confused the dwarfs and elves of warhammer with some other fantasy novels. Oh well =p

[Anarion]

More armour to the people! :smash:

[Casuir]

Aging and all factors involving it are global, they cant be set by faction or culture.

[Rogu3granny]

Hi i was just wondering will you be altering the speeches for the factions as well, giving them their own persona ?

[DrZoidberg]

Hi i was just wondering will you be altering the speeches for the factions as well, giving them their own persona ?

I'm sure that if you would take it on yourself it would be more than welcome. So far we don't have a person doing custom sounds on board. It would be greatly appreciated if somebody would take the challenge.

[Dave1984]

Has it been possible to change the sounds and voices in M2TW so far then?

I'd be up for auditioning as well then ;)

[Rogu3granny]

i havent got a clue about modding but if you point me in the right direction i would give it a stab

[ellydog]

Well would it possible to make this mod as challenging as possible? I hate in medieval toalwar how its just winning... Mabye make the evil forces more aggressive in battle and on the campaign map.

[DrZoidberg]

Well would it possible to make this mod as challenging as possible? I hate in medieval toalwar how its just winning... Mabye make the evil forces more aggressive in battle and on the campaign map.

Making it harder is a wonderful suggestion. I'm all for that. But since the evil forces are playable it isn't much of an improvement. But harder is good.

[Bwian]

That's really doen to the game balancing. It's too easy to build up a large army stack that the AI cannot counter and rampage across the map. We plan to make things a bit more balanced, with powerful units being expensive to maintain to try and force tactical decisions on the player.

[uanime5]

Give all factions large but basic armies at the start of the game (especially the rebels), to make it difficult to conquer large amounts of land early on (like in the Long Road 2.0). The cost of the armies can be offset by the value of the King's purse.

Alternatively we could ask Byg if we can incorporate his 'Byg's Grim Reality 2 - Supply and Command' mod into our mod (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=108335). This mod penalises the player for being away from their own lands and requires that they maintain supplies or face troop desertion.

[DrZoidberg]

Since we have a good selection of Empire and a fair selection of Tomb Kings. Why not start making a historical battle? It can be a small one. Like a taster of things to come.

Would be nice having a small powerful army of Empire troops, against a vast but weak skeleton army spreading fear, backed up by a bone giant.

[Gnashfang]

Okay I have a few, probably already been mentioned by others somewhere on the forum but oh well, and I mentioned some of the Orc ones on a different thread

-- A crusade for Orcs, a WAAAGH!!

-- I personally think the Orcs should start out small, representing one tribe of them *Because I think the orcs starting out one big united green thing on the map is very difficult* and you give all the other orc regions to Orc rebels that you could conquer and basically absorb.

-- For Orcs, make more settlements prone to riot because they're orcs, they like to fight, and don't tend to have many big cities besides what they conquer anyway.

-- Animosity between the greenskins if possible.

-- Night Goblin berserkers, basically just add an ability button or something that triggers them to Run Amock, when they're doing so they're harder to kill than they are when they're not running amock, but of course can turn around and smash your own lines in.

-- Maybe a morale decrease when Night Goblins are fighting during the day, and a morale increase for them during Night Battles.

-- Make it so that Orcs have very high morale when in combat *How often does an orc want to run off?* and I assume Undead shouldn't have Morale at all. Perhaps if the Undead general dies all the troops should suddenly get terrible morale, which gives more of an incentive to take out the undead leader. Also, maybe, if you don't have a leader for your larger undead hordes, they would all start dying again? *In the form of Desertion*

-- I would love you forever if you can make all the Orcs scream "WAAAGH!!" when they charge.

[Enthes]

i agree with makking it hard for the good guys to win as such but dont wanna make it to easy when you play as the bad guys aswell:no:

also i dont want an epic grind to build building that allow more advanced units like knights and swordmasters and such in your home cities it should take a while in other cities but i think you should start with most of the buildings.

[Gnashfang]

Yeah maybe make the Orcs start with small towns, but a big army. So basically, you either need to conquer bigger towns or disband... And who in their right minds would rather disband their big army than go take Altdorf? It also sort of makes you start off with a Waaagh! and give you more incentive to be offensive from the start.

[alexader]

i want to make a suggestion about the elves.in the new rules,all the infantry of the high elves fights first(always strike first rule).would you plan to include that?maybe the will fight more fast,or something like that.:egypt:

[A Norseman]

Some suggestinons..

Vampire counts obiouly does not make children, they bite people.
In kingdoms Teotonic campain, teotonics only get new generals through adoption..
I think that "a canidate for undeath" (with a picture of a vampire delivering the bite) will be the best option.

The Elven general must be a powerfull but rare commander. In the warhammer world, its a utter disaster when a high elf prince dies.

[Jubal_Barca]

Can tunneling be done for miners and rats?

[Enthes]

My only suggestion is crusades. Every single race in warhammer has a form of crusade and it would be a shame to miss out on alot of fun.

[Gnashfang]

When you get around to doing the voice over for Dwarves, make them Welsh *This is being discussed in another thread so I guess I should mention :D*

[Born in lust for blood]

Blood dragons should also be a part of this. A lot of lot of blood dragons have been known for their attempts to build up empires in Brettonia. Just make the knights very rare(knights of the blood keep) and very powerful and add to that the men at arms and the zombies and skeletons units and voila! Blood dragons.

[overkill1991]

I have an idea for VC princesses. Instead of just marying a foreign general they could seduce them and turn them into a vampire, bite them. (would be awesome if we had artwork resembling an attractive vampire female getting ready to bite someone)



And another thing. I think you guys should limit how far some settlements can develop if that's possible. It wouldn't be realistic if all the provinces in the Chaos Wastes (which I assume are all towns except maybe a few strongholds) will develop into big cities or whatever, same goes for the empire etc..

The empire has a few big cities and a lot of small towns, having a big city in every province would be unrealistic imo so I think limiting some settlements to certain levels of advancement, for example a mottle & baily.

This would also mean that you can't just make your best troop at every city but that your best troops have to come from your ''real'' famous/big cities, something that is a good thing imo.


So what do you guys think ?

[DrZoidberg]

Can tunneling be done for miners and rats?

Just what I was thinking. It is in practice a teleport function. Is it possible to make a unit disappear in one place, (disband) and re-appear, (creation) in another place. Having a turn isn't a problem. I'm I totally off in fantasy land now?

[Gnashfang]

Just what I was thinking. It is in practice a teleport function. Is it possible to make a unit disappear in one place, (disband) and re-appear, (creation) in another place. Having a turn isn't a problem. I'm I totally off in fantasy land now?

For the battlefield, couldn't you basically use the sapper effect from RTW as an ability? Maybe take away a bit of the cracks *But leave a few, and leave the sound, so sometimes you detect it and sometimes you don't*

[DrZoidberg]

For the battlefield, couldn't you basically use the sapper effect from RTW as an ability? Maybe take away a bit of the cracks *But leave a few, and leave the sound, so sometimes you detect it and sometimes you don't*

I think it should be more of a strategic thing on the main map. It's for moving troops clandestinely. Maybe they can hide/ambush anywhere and have free movement, ie not effected by zone of control?

[ellydog]

It would be cool if skaven could tunnel into cities and start inside the walls.

[Gnashfang]

It would be cool if skaven could tunnel into cities and start inside the walls.

Yeah that would be cool, but I think during sieges Skaven should get a morale decrease or something, just to even the odds. And it's semi-realistic since the Skaven aren't the bravest creatures known to the Old World.

[messenger]

Make a year about 8 or so turns so that characters don't die of old age very often, not to mention alot happens in just one year in Warhammer.

[Silly Knicket]

How about using the Jihad code for Greenskin Waaghs? A bit easier to implement than the crusade code (with all the pope and cardinals etc)

[Revan-Shan]

It would be cool if skaven could tunnel into cities and start inside the walls.

I have a better idea, prepare...
Catacombs.

A new type of battle map. With four types: tombs (vampire counts), skaven settlement, dwarf mine/palace, lizardmen's subway.

[Gnashfang]

Catacombs would be really cool, but possible? Not sure. If it were, it'd be freakin' epic I'm sure.

[Dogman55]

Lizardmen Subways? Only thing underground for the lizardmen I know of is the spawning pools. (Which would be bad @$$)

[Revan-Shan]

Forum: make a music thread
Mod: use music from the teutonic campaign (kingdoms)

[alexader]

"Forum: make a music thread
Mod: use music from the teutonic campaign (kingdoms)"

i think it's better to suggest and not to order something..........:egypt:

[messenger]

Forum: make a music thread
Mod: use music from the teutonic campaign (kingdoms)
I don't think they would do that unless it was on Kingdoms.
What with legalities and what not.
Don't take this the wrong way but you don't have to demand everything you know, you could always suggest rather than try and tell the team what to do.
This is their mod.

About the Vampire Princess's biting to add more members, isn't that a Lahemian thing?

[Revan-Shan]

Don't take this the wrong way but you don't have to demand everything you know, you could always suggest rather than try and tell the team what to do.
This is their mod.


WTF! Hey men I'm not demanding. This is the suggestion box so every idea or phrase I post is a suggestion. I'm very polite when it comes to suggest or ask. I'm very aware of the fact that this is their mod. Not mine, their's.
So, from now on every phrase here or in any other thread is a suggestion, no confusion from no on ok?, a suggestion, a suggestion.
:2thumbsup:

Message for the team: excellent work! (And everything I say is always a suggestion)

[alexader]

"WTF!"
firstly this is inpolite,if you want to be polite!!!:beam:

"Hey men I'm not demanding. This is the suggestion box so every idea or phrase I post is a suggestion."
secondly,we don't required to know that from you.lol

"I'm very polite when it comes to suggest or ask. I'm very aware of the fact that this is their mod. Not mine, their's."
thirdly,we are already know that this is their's mod,and for that thing we are told you that:egypt:

"So, from now on every phrase here or in any other thread is a suggestion, no confusion from no on ok?, a suggestion, a suggestion."
and lastly,don't give us orders or demand and demand and demand something from the people that pointed your wrong statements.this is inpolite.if you want to be polite,try to accept are suggestions,and carry on:beam:

and if you are not part of the modding team,try to SUGGEST(with all the meaning of word)and don't demand things from the team or even from us.
we are here before you,and we all know things about warhammer,as you do
(and try not to use GW copyright,in your "ideas"):egypt:

[Revan-Shan]

:inquisitive:
Totally off topic
:egypt::whip:

[alexader]

hahaahahhaha,nice nice,this is the way you answer.i didn't expect that,but it's most welcome.i am off topic,because i am pointing your wrong statements?ahhaaaaa?ok i am not going to continue that disgusion,because i know where are the limits and where i have to stop,keep up the good suggestions.......:egypt:

[alexader]

messenger i think all vampires bite to add more members but i don't know for sure:book:

[Revan-Shan]

messenger i think all vampires bite to add more members but i don't know for sure:book:

Yes, they do. Totally sure, there's no other way.

[messenger]

I dunno, I think most of the time the Vampires bite and drain blood to feed.
Hell it says in the Vampire Counts book that the Lahemians giving a blood kiss to someone to make them a Vampire is extremely rare.
But anyway, maybe that's just the Lahemians who are very choosy.

[Gnashfang]

Yeah vampires are like that, but occasionally they'll find someone worthy to expand the bloodline to.

[MangyElf]

I was wondering, since characters can be infected and spread disease, would it be possible to give this as an attribute to a small few of the relevant chaos worshippers, say on a spy that can spread disease to an enemy town? Not to suggest every 'spy' gets it but maybe an attribute can be gained that gives disease carrier status. Even as I say it, it seems like a tall order but I won't know unless I ask ;)

It also begs the question of how disease will work in general or even if it's possible to alter it from the original at all. Maybe it can be turned off as a random effect or maybe the best that can be done is the wording of the random effect is changed to relate to something more warhammer-esque. I'm thinking that from a RP perspective, an outbreak of disease inside a Skaven town, for example, wouldn't exactly be legit, at least not in the same way it would inside an Empire town.

[messenger]

Skaven towns probably would have to be coded to always have high public health as they are used to squalor.

[MangyElf]

Doesn't public health also affect growth rate though? That'd make it tricky to provide high public health as standard. I guess farms could be removed and perhaps character traits that increase growth could be removed from Skaven but there's only so much leeway doing that. Would it be enough?

[messenger]

If you read what I said, I was suggesting the Skaven have super high public health as even the most squalid...squalor is not squalorous to a squalor loving Skaven.
That means lots of mutant rat babies!

[MangyElf]

I did read it and knew exactly what you were suggesting. Obviously I didn't make myself clear when I pointed out the side effect of public health - higher population growth so yeah, lots of mutant rat babies. That's going to give Skaven an advantage in both cash and getting more advanced units (if they plan such a thing) out the door quicker. Coupled with no disease outbreaks it is almost certainly too much of a strategic advantage.

While on the subject, how is population growth and technological advances planned in this mod? Will we see higher population cities already in existance or will we experience an emerging state? It doesn't really make sense to have emerging civs starting as small towns and building up, not considering how long some have been around. Then again, it probably won't be as much fun to skip this bit of TW or the mod may as well be played via the custom/quick game option. The campaign game is more than half the fun for me so I hope it's not the latter.

Is it possible to limit population growth and base advances on a timeline of events instead? Or maybe building dependancies can be changed so that rather than wall upgrades being dependant on population they are dependant on buildings x, y and z in the previous tech queue? Bleh, I dunno what's possible or when it is possible, what's doable, I'm just thinking out loud.

[messenger]

I did read it and knew exactly what you were suggesting. Obviously I didn't make myself clear when I pointed out the side effect of public health - higher population growth so yeah, lots of mutant rat babies. That's going to give Skaven an advantage in both cash and getting more advanced units (if they plan such a thing) out the door quicker. Coupled with no disease outbreaks it is almost certainly too much of a strategic advantage.

While on the subject, how is population growth and technological advances planned in this mod? Will we see higher population cities already in existance or will we experience an emerging state? It doesn't really make sense to have emerging civs starting as small towns and building up, not considering how long some have been around. Then again, it probably won't be as much fun to skip this bit of TW or the mod may as well be played via the custom/quick game option. The campaign game is more than half the fun for me so I hope it's not the latter.

Is it possible to limit population growth and base advances on a timeline of events instead? Or maybe building dependancies can be changed so that rather than wall upgrades being dependant on population they are dependant on buildings x, y and z in the previous tech queue? Bleh, I dunno what's possible or when it is possible, what's doable, I'm just thinking out loud.
Can't you vary what causes buildings to become available, so in swarmy armies like Orcs and Skaven, it could take double the amount of population to get anywhere but they have high growth anyhow.
On the Skaven disease note, only Nurgle could be more resistant to disease...

[Revan-Shan]

-Technically there should be no technological advances, everything is already known.


-Perhaps make at a certain time the Empire and some other factions appear in the "warhammer america", that land ant the west.


-Not just make heroes stronger but with faster attack movements.

[messenger]

-Technically there should be no technological advances, everything is already known.


-Perhaps make at a certain time the Empire and some other factions appear in the "warhammer america", that land ant the west.


-Not just make heroes stronger but with faster attack movements.
Technically you just cancelled out points 1 and 2, if there is no Empire, they can't exist at all because if there is no technological advance and you want to Empire to appear, it won't happen.
Otherwise that means no blackpowder units, no Empire really.

I think it would be quite good to start off fairly near normal Warhammer times and make the years really long.

[Revan-Shan]

Technically you just cancelled out points 1 and 2, if there is no Empire, they can't exist at all because if there is no technological advance and you want to Empire to appear, it won't happen.
Otherwise that means no blackpowder units, no Empire really.

I think it would be quite good to start off fairly near normal Warhammer times and make the years really long.

I didn't meant to mean that. What I wanted to say is let them not discover more units. For example the Empire should start with steam tanks and canons of all type with no need to discover anything new.

[alexader]

yes,i think it's better to begin the game in what stage warhammer is today.if we have to discover everything from the start we lose the feeling of warhammer:egypt:

[MangyElf]

yes,i think it's better to begin the game in what stage warhammer is today.if we have to discover everything from the start we lose the feeling of warhammer:egypt:
It's a dilema. On the one hand an evolving WH world (as presented in a TW campaign) doesn't exist in the WH game.

On the other hand, the problem with starting off with everything prebuilt is unless they have something cool planned then the only campaign aspect is conquering territories. Boring. The strategic elements of 'base building' are part and parcel of this game so should not be ignored or it risks feeling bland.

If all you have to do is move armies around the map then how bored would you be after a game or two? Sure, we can fight on the battle map too but we can do that without a world map, just by starting a custom battle. I'd still play this mod, still look forward to it, but I doubt it'd hold my attention as long as it would with city building and unit development included, at least to some degree.

Besides, even with everything pre-built and static, it still will be a TW mod for WH, ie it won't ever feel exactly like WH unless they can prevent the Empire swarming across the Chaos Wastes, or whatever, just because that doesn't happen in WH. The opposite perhaps but Chaos hasn't taken over the Empire either. You think that won't happen in this mod, grabbing territories that go against the official WH canon? It happens in the vanilla game where it didn't historically cuz that's part and parcel of the game. If it doesn't then it'll definately be better served as a custom battle mod and not a campaign mod so no, we will lose some 'official' feel to it, by design.

For that reason, and because of preference, I have to disagree. It'd be better to build up a faction if the only other choice is being handed everything ready-made.

[Enthes]

yes,i think it's better to begin the game in what stage warhammer is today.if we have to discover everything from the start we lose the feeling of warhammer:egypt:

i agree with this although only for the territories you start off with. it should take a long time to build units in newly captured territories this brings back all the excitements of city management as you need to have the right units in the right places.

[MangyElf]

i agree with this although only for the territories you start off with. it should take a long time to build units in newly captured territories this brings back all the excitements of city management as you need to have the right units in the right places.
That's a compromise but also has it's problems.

If you've got no choice on what to spend your cash (which is usually, infrastructure, 'research', build units or buy them) then it'd need some good balancing in the early game. With nothing but units to spend your money on your only options are offense or defence. Since you have access to every unit you will ever get with this proposal then it's like playing the end-game of a campaign, only with less territories. Those factions who start with more territories will be at an advantage as well, though a further compromise could be only allowing one or two cities to be fully built.

I'm not saying it couldn't work, just that it'd need to be well balanced. Still, I can't help but feel any move toward pre-building is going to add an element of blandness to the mod, at least to start with. Cheat in a game and you'll get the exact same effect because it amounts to basically the same thing.

[messenger]

I have to say, I would prefer it if most places had some upgrading still to do, otherwise it is pretty pointless having a campaign as it would essentially be a glorified custom battle.

[Faenaris]

Suggestion:

Do not overdo yourselves. While we all want to play the mod desperately (I'm gonna faint the day I see "Mod available!"), that doesn't mean you are our slaves. When you feel the need to slow down for a few weeks, take a break! Modding when you are "burned-out" isn't fun.

Now, don't take too long breaks! We don't want you running off on us, slav... erhm, modders! Yes, modders! That's it ...

*blinks before vanishing in the lurking shadows*

[messenger]

Suggestion:

Do not overdo yourselves. While we all want to play the mod desperately (I'm gonna faint the day I see "Mod available!"), that doesn't mean you are our slaves. When you feel the need to slow down for a few weeks, take a break! Modding when you are "burned-out" isn't fun.

Now, don't take too long breaks! We don't want you running off on us, slav... erhm, modders! Yes, modders! That's it ...

*blinks before vanishing in the lurking shadows*
Bwian seems wise enough to handle modding sensibly enough...

[Faenaris]

Bwian seems wise enough to handle modding sensibly enough...

I'm not doubting his sensibility nor the team's. But they have produced a lot of stuff already in quite a fast timeperiod. Just look at all the hours that went into creating the chariot animations. I was just saying that taking a break isn't considered heresy. ~:)

[Gnashfang]

I was just saying that taking a break isn't considered heresy. ~:)
Oh, I can change that. :whip:

[messenger]

I'm not doubting his sensibility nor the team's. But they have produced a lot of stuff already in quite a fast timeperiod. Just look at all the hours that went into creating the chariot animations. I was just saying that taking a break isn't considered heresy. ~:)
Well Bwian even posted he took a holiday from modding a couple of weeks or so again, so in theory he has a good idea of pacing himself.

I suggest making the Orcs and Goblins unit sizes quite different, perhaps with Orc units being only abit bigger than their Empire equivalent, with the Gobbos having a maximum unit size.

[Bwian]

My serious modding time is pretty much nil until after Christmas, but I still have time to think, plan and organise ... and these are tasks I can get out of the way.

Campaign wise, there needs to be axpansion and development of settlements. Without this, there is no variety to a campaign. How we do this is open to some debate, since I plan to have a mixture of 'faction dedicated' buildings and 'generic' buildings.

The construction conditionals will require both for certain units, and will vary according to race. Here's a few examples:

Tomb Kings.
Require a 'pyramid' for basic recruitment. This is a core type building, and will be something only that faction has. If they took over a sttlement, they could not build any units until they had one.

Once they have that, they can produce militia type units.

To make warriors, they would also need a metalworking building. IF the settlement they took hado ne, then as soon as they build there 'base' they have warriors available too. Same would apply for archers. A fletcher building would allow archers.

Certain key units will be more restricted, since they are more 'exotic'. These will be tied to hidden resources to ensure they are a tactical special, not a common unit. I do NOT want armies of Bone Giants all across the map. They are rare and precious objects.

Cavalry for this faction will require a cavalry building, not because of the actual units...they still need to come form the basic troop recruitment building, but more from the tack and gear side of things.

The build trees will not be overly complex this way, but will be 'jigsaws' that allow some re-use of a buildig, but not all.

If the Empire re-took the settlement after the Tomb Kings changed it, they would have to destroy the Pyramid to build their own 'core' building. Not sure if this would be a Temple to Sigmar, or just an Imperial Barracks... but that again would throw out the 'basic warrior' with the other units needed to make them special units. A higer level 'metalworking' building ( swordsmithy) would be needed for Great Swords for example, but a basic one would give you spearmen.

The remainder of the buildings will be about generation of wealth to support troops, and to fund further expansion of the settlement. Growth and development has to be a tactical option, weighed against your ability to recruit and train troops to hold what you have taken.

[fireblade]

maybe you could give some settlements some sort of specialisation, such as, in Nuln, most of the artillery buildings are already built, while at Altdorf, none of them exist. This will make sure every major city has a strategic importance, and thus should be defended well. Just an idea.

Fireblade

[messenger]

Generic buildings would include things like Taverns/Inns right?
I am sure even Necromancer's have to take a night off and drink a couple of pints of minced virgin or essence of beetles or whatever the hell they drink.

[Revan-Shan]

I've just had an idea for the mod.

What if, apart from the historical and custom battles, the mod had a special type of game: Inside Building Kirmish.

This would let you play with a little number of units but in cool places. Imagine:

A tavern where two groups of dwarves get drunk and fight each other.

It would look like a rol game, you could use heroes without guard (if they are created) and perhaps smaller number of soldiers per squad.
The outside of the building would be black and nobody could get out of the place.

http://www.dragonworld.de/catalog/images/DRW/SQW30014.jpg

This skirmish type of battle is sometimes given whith the White Dwarf, the Warhammer magazine.

There's even a whole book dedicated to warhammer skirmishes.

[messenger]

1: Total War is about massive battles. 2: Even on the smallest battle size you can't have 1 man units or the game crashes.
3: Can't say I like the idea anyway.

[Silaris]

I expect you know this already, but I might as well suggest it on the vague chance that you don't. Total War requires alot of neutral, or rather, rebel villages and towns to conquer at the beginning of the game. This allows expansion early on, and keeps you growing at a slower pace so you don't gain hold of the strongest units from the start (which is only a good thing in my mind).

Warhammer lends wonderfully to 'rebels' at the start, since the world is flexible enough on the tabletop to allow the same faction to fight each other. And since we rarely ever hear of such minor rebellions, or disputes, we can legitimately allow rebels by each of the lands. Empire, Brettonians, Chaos, Skaven, and Orcs can easily have numerous rebel states beside them or within the territories shown on the tabletop maps. Even High Elves and Dark Elves could have that.

So my suggestion is to have a good deal of rebels for you to conquer, especially in places that I mentioned. It would slow down the pace of the game, which people have already discussed, make it feel more like Total War, and lets you get to grips with conquering without having to be forced to start a conflict at the beginning with another faction.


But I'm sure you all thought that already.

[messenger]

The Rebels idea has kinda already been thought of, not so much in the Empire though but say for instance the Chaos factions will be knocking the snot out of each other as all but your race of Norse is rebel.

[Silly Knicket]

Even the Empire could be part rebel, making the player uniting the different counts and princes under his banner, before turning his attention towards the other factions.

[messenger]

Even the Empire could be part rebel, making the player uniting the different counts and princes under his banner, before turning his attention towards the other factions.
I am pretty sure only Sylvania had Counts crazy enough to go to war with the Empire.
Not to mention the whole point of the Empire is that it is meant to stand as one, against all the foes that your pretty sure to be attacked by pretty quickly into the game.

[Revan-Shan]

Marienburg is independent but it was before part of the Empire. That city and Mordheim are the only imperial rebel cities.

[messenger]

Marienburg is independent but it was before part of the Empire. That city and Mordheim are the only imperial rebel cities.
I am pretty sure I heard someone say on another topic that Mordhiem doesn't exist in the current Warhammer timeframe.

[fireblade]

It doesn't, it's ruins were completely destroyed by Magnus the Pious and his army after defeating the chaos incursion.

Under the reign of Karl Franz, the empire is a fairly stable realm, but nothing suggest the lords wouldn't rebel if they think they can get away with it. So maybe give a number of generals low loyalty, but that's it.

fireblade

[Enthes]

there will always be rebels and bandits in the empire the forest is full of them and the cities full of skaven so there is nothing to stop skaven and things taking a few settlements :clown:

[A Norseman]

Suggestion to overall campaign theme:

The one thing I really dislike about the campaign map of medieval: Total war 2. Is that Once you have gotten out of the internal stages, acquired some elite units and have a stable economy, it is really no challenge left, no enemy worthy to challenge you or threaten you in any way. From that point on, the game is all about invading smaller, weaker factions, witch can be fun, but lacks the thrill of fighting for your life.

The games have gotten more and more like this, From Medieval, where the campaign map AI where excellent. I remember well the campaign I had with the Danish, where I took all lands east of Denmark, (Russia, turkey, holy lands, Egypt, parts of HRE, Poland ect) But while I did this in the east, England took all of western Europe. There was 2 equal factions left on the campaign map! Boy what a campaign that was, and the best part was, I actually lost! I have never lost before of after. I was defeated when I first had about 40 provinces, because I was not the only one expanding my empire on the map.

In Rome, this was not the case, the only faction worth playing against were the Egyptians and the Romans, but mostly, when you had taken a few provinces, gotten the armoured hoplites or legionaries or war elephants, you were completely out of danger. No one could hope to kill you. In Barbarian invasion, the campaign map was much better, because it offered a challenge. I first won with the eastern empire, witch played a lot like the Romans had done in ROME. But it was not until I played the Franks, I understood the genius of the map, I was constantly fighting for my life, I actually had to retreat from Europe to Britain to avoid being crushed, and then fight for my life to Stay in Britain, but after that, with the powerhouse witch is Britain in my back, taking France was relatively easy, and the campaign got much less exiting.

In Medieval II, things have gotten to an all time low. Remembering my exceptional campaign as Denmark in medieval, I took my first campaign as them on VH/H. However I was disappointed to see that when I was building up my empire, no England or any other faction was there to challenge me, the other factions in the campaign was roughly on the spot they began in. What a boring campaign, I won with ease.

The reason why I am saying this is because I hope that Warhammer total war will not be like this. Not make the mod such that when you have established yourself as an empire, the challenge of the game is basically over, only hundreds of siege battles remain, as no faction have any hope of invading your lands.

I Think the best goal to do this in the Warhammer world, is to make Chaos a bit overpowered.
Have it like this, if the Player does not interferes, Chaos will take over the entire new and old world. It fits well with the overall theme of the Warhammer World, AND. It makes for an exiting campaign from the beginning to the end.

The upset will be like this: First you start as High Elfs/The Empire/Dwarfs/Brettonia or Orcs/VC/Tomb Kings or Dark Elfs/Lizardmen You fight with your neighbours and carve yourself an empire. While you do this, Chaos is invading the Strong rebel stacks of Norsca. So when You as The dwarfs have taken all the surrounding Orc lands, you will start to see Empire town after Empire town falling to Chaos. You as a Player must stop Chaos and help the Empire before there is only you left!

[Enthes]

i completly agree norsmen though it would mean it would be boring to be chaos hopefully this mod will get it just right with sevral super factions emerging to beat it out at end game :yes:

[MangyElf]

A major consideration is individual playing style. You or I might play more, or less, aggressively than the next guy so why force people to alter personal playing style with an overly aggressive AI? The answer is that the playstyle this mod is most aimed at should be the main consideration. Maybe that's you, maybe it's me, maybe neither of us or perhaps both of us. Who knows. Point being that not everyone will like every mod to the same extent so to quote the old adage, one man's drink is another man's poison. Why try to make it anything but what it is so we get to decide if it fits our style or not. Sure, I realise it's only a suggestion but it has to keep this in mind too.

What can be considered 'neutrally' is that part of the problem is due to variety in AI tactics. It'd be pretty boring to have every AI-controlled faction act in the same way but there is also a problem in having them too varied. That is to say, a faction which conentrates on turtling and economy is not going to be all that agressive. Not so the player, who will want control over a larger empire and therefore will act more aggresively than most or even all AI factions. I can't really see how it can change so while it's all well and good suggesting Chaos is the aggressor in every game, that lasts right up until we choose to play as Chaos and then it's back to square one.

There have been attempts to correct AI behavior by modders but while much better than vanilla they still won't cope with the aggressive player that manages to establish an empire early on, perhaps in a good defensive position and couple maybe with good diplomacy to control the number of threats at any one time. It;s not that hard to determine who hates who, even keeping a bordering province alive so your ally stays focused on someone else. It does buy time.

There may well be one but I have still to see a modded AI that sufficiently makes use of sea attack either so anything on an island (you illustrate nicely by quoting England as an example) has an advantage too. The Stainless Steel mod I play does force the AI to attack by sea, with various factions attempting to take over islands/attack via sea travel or even invade England but never early enough or with enough force in my experience. An established town or castle can easily repel the invaders and invariably they seige you, even if they have several siege engines along for the ride. That means even if you were suprised you usually have enough time to go relieve a siege or if worst comes to worst, take back a settlement.

Here's an example of supposedly improved AI at work, in which I hope to show up that while it's way better than vanilla it also has flaws. Anyways, in my most recent campaign game, playing HRE, England is the richest faction. It doesn't control all of the British Isles because it made Scotland it's vassel so doesn't have to. When that happened Scotland stopped 'playing'. Scotland had just landed an army of sufficient size to gain a foothold in Scandinavia but the moment England diplomacied them into submission they just stood there for about 30 turns, ignoring the rebel settlement they were presumably about to attack (they've took it in all my previous campaigns so no reason to suspect they would not this time, except for the vassel status).

Meanwhile, France, after allying itself with non-catholic factions, took Caen from England. Despite having the second largest army next to mine and being consistently the richest faction around, England ignored them. It parked an army in Bruges (my province now it no longer had any continental provinces of it's own) and waited, content to remain at war with France. France itself trickle fed units to come stand next to Genoa (also my province), presumably with an aim toward grouping enough of them to attack me. I kept bribing the stacks of 2 or 3 units it kept sending, to stop them being in a strong position to attack me, but other than that I ignored them while I destroyed the Byzantines. As soon as I had accomplished that, Turkey (who were my allies) and Russia (allied with France) attacked me. A couple of turns later France decided to try it's luck, at last. That's when England jumped in, taking one French province but even though it had numerical advantage at Caen and did siege it, it stopped and went away. The moment France lost two provinces (I took Caen since England wouldn't) they were excommunicated. They were only on 3 dots with the pope anyway but after reducing them down to 3 provinces and even calling a crusade on one of their towns they are still excommunicated. I don't think that would happen in Vanilla, where they'd have been redeemed in the eyes of the pope by now I reckon or maybe not even excommunicated to start with because they lost provinces. Their only 'crime' was to attack me and maybe have non-catholic allies *shrug*

Point being that even improved AI could use some work, if it's possible. For example:

The actions of a faction that can well afford to lose a battle need to follow through for starters. England could have taken Caen easily but refrained after sieging for a turn, and for no apparent reason (France had 4 units inside Caen and 4 more arrived at turn 1 of the siege, 'forcing' England's stack of 15 units to break off). Similarly, Scotland could have gained a foothold in Scandinavia but stopped as soon as England made a vassel of them, almost as if they got the English AI, one that wasn't interested in Scandinavia. Then again, it could simply be that they lost any ideas of expansion at all since they did not reinforce English troops either, they just stayed home. Actually, with the exception of the army they took back home after a couple of dozen turns they stayed exactly where they were (I play with FOW off btw, since I realised after a dozen games that I hate rebel-attracting watchtower building).

The AI needs to get it's act together when planning to attack as well. France could have built up a stack in one of it's own provinces, leaving me guessing as to where it was headed, and then come for me. Sending a small stack to stand next to my town was a dead giveaway when we had no alliance and especially no military access. Sending in more small stacks one at a time couldn't have made it any clearer as to their intentions. By doing that I was easily able to bribe them and prevent them from building up a siege force. I could not easily done that on a larger stack but I didn't have to find out if it was possible when they made it too convenient to spread the bribery costs over several turns.

Use of sea travel needs to be done more extensively and logically, especially since water will seperate more factions in this mod (I'm betting it's covered or at least considered). The AI shows it's hand by first blockading a port and doesn't send sufficient troops to take out a well defended island. What troops it does load on a ship are often just that, on one ship. Pretty easy to sink if you have even a small navy yourself, made easier by their attack being flagged by a port blockade, which if nothing else is going to make you at least scrutinize any of their ships you see headed your way.

Now I dare say better AIs could exist, I haven't played every mod and the one in my example does have some quirks that the AI could be accounting for to make it that bit dumber than necessary but the points still stand since vanilla is even worse.

One thing that I will point out is that war isn't just hell, it costs money too. AFAIK this game doesn't have a war status depletion of resources, general tightening of belts or heavy taxes to simulate the 'reality' of the situation. Basically, the only expense is more units to expand and defend your empire with and that is a constant whether you are at war with no one through to everyone. Free garrison units plus the addded income of a new settlement makes keeping sufficient forces to work with relatively easy. Perhaps that needs looking at, although the plans to make certain units uncommon will likely help a lot in this regard. Thing is, it'll also put brakes on the AI too, who will also be under the same constraints. If nothing else then by the time an army reaches it's 2nd or 3rd attack it's quite likely to have units depleted so much that they are all but useless and can't be replaced except way back there, in uniqueunitsville. We players could very well be at an advantage because of this. If we auto test battles we place the precious units in back, making them less likely to take casualties where we outnumber the enemy. If we go to the battle map we can be more reserved in our use of said units, letting the cannon fodder take the brunt. Not always but I'm betting it's not possible to make the AI use this trick so score one for us.

[alexader]

the final darth mod has awesome AI(just my opinion)but the vanilia is trully bad

[Jubal_Barca]

I think the game should become less rewrding ov overly aggressiv behaviour, depnding oon the faction. Dwarfs should not have an objective of world domintion becuase the Dwwarfs don't WANT to dominate the world, thay'd like thie rold holds and wealth back but that's about it. Dwarfs should realy have a monetary traget, coupled with getting thier old holds back, as the objective.

Land's fine for Chaos, Empire, Rats, or Brets, Orcs should require an agressive but no necessarily landgrab style of play, and so on.

[MangyElf]

I think the game should become less rewrding ov overly aggressiv behaviour, depnding oon the faction. Dwarfs should not have an objective of world domintion becuase the Dwwarfs don't WANT to dominate the world, thay'd like thie rold holds and wealth back but that's about it. Dwarfs should realy have a monetary traget, coupled with getting thier old holds back, as the objective.

Land's fine for Chaos, Empire, Rats, or Brets, Orcs should require an agressive but no necessarily landgrab style of play, and so on.
So the suggestion would be to limit, for example, the Dwarven ability to build happiness inducing buildings? The further away a province from the capital, the more effect the penalty will have on it if it can't create as many or as powerful mood enhancing buildings.

Or are you suggesting something else? If it's done only via the AI then it certainly won't limit players of that faction and as an AI faction it will create the associated problems A Norseman mentioned above. Perhaps the answer to aggressive expansionism is to limit such buildings but I'm no font of wisdom on such things. As a substitute or even a supplement to the AI in this regard it's reasonable to assume more testing needs to be done, to decide whether to increase build times, increase costs, reduce effectiveness, ban them altogether or some combination. I imagine that if distance to capital penalties can be changed then it is universal so is not a solution, or is it impossible to tune individual factions this way?

[fireblade]

Is it possible to give every faction something special? some ideas here.

-High elfs have extra free militia troops in their core provinces

-Dark elfs have a cheap navy

-Orcs have low upkeep.

-Dwarfs have mining advantages

-Vampire counts have a higher casualty recovery rate.

-Skaven can get sometimes free stacks, such as the spanish in Kingdoms, representing small sewerempires joining your cause.

Can't think of anything for dwarfs, empire, brettonnia, chaos, lizardmen and tomb kings right now.

fireblade

[Revan-Shan]

[QUOTE=fireblade]Is it possible to give every faction something special? some ideas here.

-High elfs have extra free militia troops in their core provinces

-Dark elfs have a cheap navy

-Orcs have low upkeep.

-Dwarfs have mining advantages

-Vampire counts have a higher casualty recovery rate.

-Skaven can get sometimes free stacks, such as the spanish in Kingdoms, representing small sewerempires joining your cause.

Can't think of anything for dwarves, empire, brettonnia, chaos, lizardmen and tomb kings right now.


I can...

Well, the list again:

-Empire has extra free militia troops in its core provinces.

-High Elves, cheap mages (they are suposed to have some of the best mages and built the magic schools in the Empire).

-Dark Elves have a cheap navy (I agree)

-Orks have low upkeep (I agree, they live for fighting)

-Dwarves have mining advantages (ok, but it seems little advantage)

-Vampire Counts have a higher casuality recovery rate (yeah)

-Khemri (Nehekhara funerary kingdoms, tomb kings): The same as the VCs

-Brettonnia's knights are given experience when recluted.

-Chaos, enemy watch towers cannot see chaos land.

-Lizardmen can move quicker through jungle terrain.

[Jubee]

I agree with Revan-Shan, But as told many times before by Bwian, mages can't be done properly to the mod.

1) Because you can't have single characters.

2) It would look weird.

[Revan-Shan]

I agree with Revan-Shan, But as told many times before by Bwian, mages can't be done properly to the mod.

1) Because you can't have single characters.

2) It would look weird.


No sigle characters? I doubt that's impossible and if I'm not mistaken that has already been done.

Look weird? No if they have quicker movements than the rest.


And if not high lelves could have a cheap navy too



One comment: I will hung myself if i don't see sigmarit monks crushing badies. It doesn't matter if they are single units or form part of a squad. Sigmarit monks rule!



And another suggestion: Griffons and dragons could be added, the thing is, single units or with generals riding them?

[Jubee]

No sigle characters? I doubt that's impossible.

Look weird? No if they have quicker movements than the rest.


And if not high lelves could have a cheap nay too

Off course there is heroes, but they have to have retinue, single characters will crash the game.

Looking weird I meant that spells will be hard to look "realistic" and to work properly. Bwian could explain better. I don't remember whole thing.

Even that High Elves have the best navy in the old world, it is small. I suggest that they have normal/expensive navy, but it is the best navy in the game.

[fireblade]

Maybe for high elfs, at the start of the campaign, they can see the location of all settlements, i mean, they sailed around the globe before men even existed.

I know a mining advantage looks like a small advantage for dwarfs, but there real strenght lies in their well equiped armies, and every form of money helps in fielding a larger army, so...
I think dwarfs should be able to defeat every army when facing them in equal numbers, but they are attacked from all sides and will most likely be outnumbered, so...

Fireblade

[A Norseman]

I agree that factions should have advantages over each other, as is the nature of Warhammer. I don’t think however, that the advantages should limit to one each, the factions would have lots of differences and would probably be hard to put all of them on a list. For example: Orcs, as you say: have low upkeep. I agree, the low tier orcs should come almost free. But orcs should have lots more to them than that. For example, Orcs, there are lots of them, but they easily begin to fight among themselves. To illustrate this, Orcs should have a ridiculously low loyalty both on the campaign and battle map to counterbalance the amount of orcs you get, also, the orc settlements should have horrible happiness almost all the time. The Orc leader will have to have a high authority to prevent his whole force outside his own personal army to rebel.

The things I have explained above is only some of the characteristics that would have to be put into the mod to create a satisfactory image for the Orc faction, and at the same time, the Orc AI must not be crippled by drawbacks there to restrain human players.

The same issue with the Elf’s really. The elf factions are the opposite of the orcs. They should be overly expensive to represent the dwindling population of the elven realms, but the units and cities will hardly ever rebel. The big splits in elven history have already happen, and it’s extremely unlikely that a province of Ulthuan or Naggaroth should even consider to rebel against their great lords. Furthermore, I think both the High Elfs and the Dark Elfs should start with negative income, to force the player to conquer foreign lands to bring income and (for the Dark Elfs) slaves to their lands. Then again, this would have to be balanced with the AI.

[Jubee]

I think dwarfs should be able to defeat every army when facing them in equal numbers, but they are attacked from all sides and will most likely be outnumbered, so...

Hmm.. the elite units from the dwarfs should be able to defeat or hold them againts all but the strongest enemies. In my mind I'll put an Elven warrior and a dwarf warrior to same line. They have their own advances but they are still pretty balanced each other. Also chaos warriors are in the same line than elves and dwarfs.

Dwarfs are not especially good at striking but slaying a dwarf is really hard thing to do. So logically dwarfs won't have extremely good attack but the best armour and one of the best defending abilities.

Is there code to make elite dwarf units less vulnerable in flank/rear charges?

[fireblade]

I agree with a norsemen, orcs (chaos and skaven as well) should be more prone to rebellion, while elfs and dwarfs would almost never revolt. But I don't think high elfs should start with a negative income. For the last milennia in the warhammer world, the high elf realm has remained unchanged and the high elfs never needed to expand their realm. Maybe a large portion of their income should be generated by lothern and it's port, due to the human merchants that are allowed to trade there.

The dark elfs do indeed need to pillage in order to survive, but we should find a way the AI doesn't suffer to much and get's sandwiched between chaos and lizardmen.

Fireblade

Edit: The elite warriors of elves, dwarfs and chaos should be each others match, but an ordinary dwarf vs. an elf militia or a marauder should end up in favor of the dwarf (but the elfs can outrun them and chaos outnumber)

[Jubal_Barca]

I'm suggesting something more radical than that; a redesign of the Campaign Objectives!

[overkill1991]

I'm not sure if this is possible but I was thinking of the following for Dark Elves.

When a Dark Elf navy attacks a port they should get multiple options like an army attacks a town.

They should be blockade port, or raid port. And maybe some other options if anyone knows any.

This would make sure the Dark Elves make use of their excellent navy much more and a cool way for them to get income.


Oh and another thing, when a Dark Elf army kills off all the defending troops in a town perhaps they could get an extra option, now we have exterminate settlement etc.. perhaps they should get an option that says destroy settlement and take slaves (lot's of money)

IMO it would be awesome if you get a new option to actually destroy a town instead of being forced to take it. And I really do mean destroy, maybe have some rubble on the place where the town was and have a little bit of text with it like epic battles have, maybe something like ''destroyed by xxx in the year xxxx''

[Silly Knicket]

Each faction can have an AI "personality"; mao, napoleon, ceasar, smith, stalin etc, which seems to influence how they expand and wage war quite a lot. The "napoleon" AI style, as an example is very aggressive and expands a lot, whereas "smith" is more of a defensive/hoarding style AI.
I haven´t done much reading about this descr_strat.txt code, but I've seen the effects from playing another mod (TLR) multiple times.

[Jubee]

Each faction can have an AI "personality"; mao, napoleon, ceasar, smith, stalin etc, which seems to influence how they expand and wage war quite a lot. The "napoleon" AI style, as an example is very aggressive and expands a lot, whereas "smith" is more of a defensive/hoarding style AI.
I haven´t done much reading about this descr_strat.txt code, but I've seen the effects from playing another mod (TLR) multiple times.

Can you tell me the difference between Napoleon, Cesar and Stalin? And how many types of personality there is?

[Silly Knicket]

Can you tell me the difference between Napoleon, Cesar and Stalin? And how many types of personality there is?

No, I can´t do that actually :beam:

The difference between "napoleon" and "smith" is very obvious, but I can´t really tell the difference between the others...
My guess is that the AI personality influences diplomacy, building priorities, agressiveness etc... but I can´t say much more from just playing.

I suppose I should browse around some forums, and see if I can find some more information about it.

[MangyElf]

No, I can´t do that actually :beam:

The difference between "napoleon" and "smith" is very obvious, but I can´t really tell the difference between the others...
My guess is that the AI personality influences diplomacy, building priorities, agressiveness etc... but I can´t say much more from just playing.

I suppose I should browse around some forums, and see if I can find some more information about it.

I found this link to a post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=37581) by Spino about RTW AI settings. Shouldn;t be too different, maybe it;s exactly the same. According to that post, the differences between "Smith" and "Napoleon", while definately there, are not really that obvious because Smith isn't a trade, it's a person like Napoleon was *shrug*

[DrZoidberg]

I think Orcs should be cheap abundant troops with high up-keep. That way an Orc player has an incentive to be a lot more aggressive.

I think we should focus on how we want the factions to be played rather than what is the most logical in the world.

[messenger]

Zoidberg raises a valid point, the way factions work financially can make all the difference in giving them some character and a good representation of the world.

[DrZoidberg]

Zoidberg raises a valid point, the way factions work financially can make all the difference in giving them some character and a good representation of the world.

plus that I also think Orcs being high up-keep is logical. Orcs fight a lot and break stuff, so having them around will be expensive. Just not in salaries.

[MangyElf]

Asking for development around how you want a faction to play is not a consistent starting point, not least because everyone has different ideas but due to the fact that some will be playing with and others against a particular faction. Invariably preference will enter the equation, someone's preference at any rate, but as a starting point it provides a vision only, not a means to make that vision work. It's too vague, though you could pin it down some more.

That in mind, I can't help trying to look at both sides of the coin, even if it turns out to be nothing so at a glance there are potentially two 'bad' possibilities for cheap to produce, expensive to keep orcs as far as the AI is concerned:

1. the AI makes lots based on cost and either goes bankrupt or otherwise can't build effectively due to the upkeep; or

2. the AI makes fewer units, based on upkeep, resulting in a pretty small orc horde.

For a player of the orc faction it could be interesting but the AI would need to handle it too. I presume that AI tactics can be ammended to account for something like this (if not then moot subject I guess) but it's still worth considering the possible downsides because if any exist they need to be negated or the 'technique' used, at best, more sparingly on selected units only. I'm doubtful that sparing use would have a noticeable effect along the lines of the suggestion because in theory there is a big difference between one or two high maintenance units in a faction and a whole faction comprising of disproportionately high maintenance units with cheap production costs. Has anyone seen a mod that does this, to help answer these concerns?

I'm also very doubtful that that this can be balanced effectively. I presume no one would want orcs to become more powerful, just to account for their high upkeep. Similarly, I presume no one would want orcs to get an upkeep penalty compensated for by nothing other than low cost to create because that's not a compensation - why create something that'll cost you too much to keep? It wouldn't matter if a unit cost 1 to create, not if it cost 1000 in upkeep because the 1000 would be what counts. Far better to stick to a pricing scheme based on a more discernable theme, like how good the unit is and how common you want it to be. Besides, dividing this and multiplying with no frame of reference is, I imagine, quite difficult to achieve with any degree of reliability or consitency.


plus that I also think Orcs being high up-keep is logical. Orcs fight a lot and break stuff, so having them around will be expensive. Just not in salaries.

You could just as confidently say that because orcs are not known for comeraderie and solidarity they cost more to create, in this instance the price representing the difficulty in banding a unit to together under your banner. Point being that rationalisation doesn't really matter, not at this stage and perhaps never, depending on whether it's desirable to contextualise what decisions will be made.

[fireblade]

I have an idea for using the dwarf tunnel networks connecting their holds. What about roads that go between 2 dwarf holds, flanked by mountains so that they are inaccessible for other troops. Using this, you will have to capture one dwarf hold to gain acces to their road system, thus making them more vulnerable.
^^^^/^^^^
^^^^/^^^^
hold////^^^^^^
^^^^/^^^^
hold ///^^^^^^
^^^^/^^^^^
^^^^/^^^^
Hold//// hold
^^^^^^^

something like this: / represents roads, ^represents mountains

What do you guys think.

Fireblade

[Revan-Shan]

I have an idea for using the dwarf tunnel networks connecting their holds. What about roads that go between 2 dwarf holds, flanked by mountains so that they are inaccessible for other troops. Using this, you will have to capture one dwarf hold to gain acces to their road system, thus making them more vulnerable.
Fireblade

Well, perhaps not for dwarf tunnel networks exactly, but this roads between dwarf holds located between mountains do exist (so they could be added) in the warhammen world and are defended by both Imperials and Dwarves.

Maybe, a thing that could be done to represent the tunnel networks (for dwarves, lizardmen, skaven and perhaps the VCs) is to make BLACK roads, why black? Because tunnels are not terrain and usually they are dark, so: dark/black roads.

And this is a very good thing, as it could be used to include the underground maps, if there's a battle in this roads the map for the battle would be a simple cave/tunel, catcomb, dwarf palace mine or sthg skaven or lizardmen (settlement and so).

[Love Muscle]

just got an interesting idea for mages...

I know its been suggested before but if you made the war machine model a mage but sorta make him like a hunched over old man and have the men on eitehr side of him suporting him... Magic is supposed to be physically draining or something right? Then as the guys die more blokes run up to support him. A firebolt such as the ones shown in another post somewhere by a dwarf warmachine shud look quite good as a spell. Of course for lizardmen they could have the big toad thingy being carried by guys on a platform. might be a bit uncanonny(?) but you could have most mages sitting on platforms being carried around.

[Silly Knicket]

Pushing fireball throwing mages, and big toad thingies (Slann) around on carts should be easily doable (Great cross, Italian standards etc), but having them walking around should be harder, because of some hardcoded (=not at all easily moddable) things when it comes to the original MTW2 artillery files.
Dot know though, Bwian has obviously created chariots from basically nothing, so perhaps it is doable.
I don´t think it is a must-have in a first release though, and I would rather see other things being finished first.

[Revan-Shan]

It would be wonederful to have heros (as units, not the typical noble with bodyguard), it would bring the warhammer feeling.
I heard some of you saying that it would look a little bit weird but I don't think so. The hero should walk and fight as any other unit. The only thing is that he should be quicker, have more hitpoints and attack, and have a special power.
I don't see any problem.

[fireblade]

The problem is the possibility of spawning armies filled with heroes, even if the player agrees to himself to only make realistic armies, there is the problem of the AI creating heroes in thousands.

Also, why would a group of 80 commanders ever assemble for a battle? They will spread amongst the line, not band together on one flank.

Also, about the artillery/mage, i think the problem is that the crew abandons the artillery piece once attacked in close combat, and I think we don't want to see our mage standing idle without his retinue, unable to fire at the same moment.

Fireblade

[Love Muscle]

Ahh very true. Squashed that idea then :smash:

[Revan-Shan]

The problem is the possibility of spawning armies filled with heroes, even if the player agrees to himself to only make realistic armies, there is the problem of the AI creating heroes in thousands.

Also, why would a group of 80 commanders ever assemble for a battle? They will spread amongst the line, not band together on one flank.


Yeah but that's your option, in Warhammer you can choose between making an entire army of catapults, cavalry, swordmen, archers or heroes.

And about the AI... The enemy has no need to make armies of heroes, he would make basic armies.

And believe me, in Warhammer players use a lot of heroes. In the Empire for example, you have sargents in every regiment and it's very common to add a Sigmar priest to it or put it near. And of course you have THE Commander (if you only want one). And you add an ingeneer and a mage to your army.
In total you end up with about 3/4 minor heroes and one commander, without counting the sargents.

[MangyElf]

Maybe this has already been discussed but such heroic attachments to units could possibly be done via the traits and followers system. For example, a priest might provide more casulaty healing after the fight perhaps? It's not ideal but it could be the best we get.

As for what happens in individual WH games I don't think it's relevant because it goes against the spirit of the game. It doesn't matter if the AI can handle it either, not when it shouldn't have to. Stuff like that is for the individual to 'cheat' in if they so desire, ie do it yourself by modding the mod. The basics should keep to the spirit of the game, both WH and TW.

[fireblade]

Yeah but that's your option, in Warhammer you can choose between making an entire army of catapults, cavalry, swordmen, archers or heroes.

No, you can not, as you most likely know, there are limitations to the amount of heroes, special and rare units.


And about the AI... The enemy has no need to make armies of heroes, he would make basic armies.

Not sure if I get your point here, will you please clarify?


In the Empire for example, you have sargents in every regiment and it's very common to add a Sigmar priest to it or put it near. And of course you have THE Commander (if you only want one). And you add an ingeneer and a mage to your army.
In total you end up with about 3/4 minor heroes and one commander, without counting the sargents.

Unit champions will probably be officers of units, but they have the same stats as the unit, just a different look in MTW2.

3 to 4 minor heroes and a commander is still a little less than a group of 20 (i think that is the minimum for units in MTW2). Off course, heroes play an important role in warhammer, but i've never fought a battle against a player who decides to band together his heroes in a single unit, even though it's is allowed by the rules. (It is also allowed to deploy your units with their back towards the enemy, but I don't see anyone doing that either)

Fireblade

[Revan-Shan]

I've been thinking for a minute... is it possible to create sargents? like minor Captains.

If so each unit could have a special sargent, Flagellants could be commanded by a Sigmar priest, Spearmens by a Sargent, a cannon by a Ingenieer... This command units would be much more weak than the Captain and have a different skin.

And to make this aspect more special this could be done: Make each minor command unit special. For example, a Sargent would just have more attack, a Shooter (handguners) would be more precise, and a Sigmar priest would be as good as a Captain (more attack, defence and hitpoints than other minor command units).

And just one point: Flagellants don't flee. Never.

[Alletun]

I've been thinking for a minute... is it possible to create sargents? like minor Captains.

yes it's possible to attach as many as 3 Officers to a unit. Already the Black Orcs have a standardbearer (see the greenskin thread).

[Revan-Shan]

Coooooooooooool

[Myrddraal]

Remember that officers share the stats of the unit they are attached to.


And this is a very good thing, as it could be used to include the underground maps, if there's a battle in this roads the map for the battle would be a simple cave/tunel, catcomb, dwarf palace mine or sthg skaven or lizardmen (settlement and so).

You must understand the limitations of modding. The maps are generated from the campaign map, so if you put a road between mountains then the map will be a road between mountains. You can add special maps to areas using the custom tiles method, however the custom tile is limited to the playable area so if you do use this method the distant objects will still be generated from the campaign map. It might be possible to make a three or so underground maps and repeat them along the road.

However, if it's like RTW, black roads are impossible unless you sacrifice a road type to tunnels, which is a bit much to ask. However, you can place 3D objects on the map (there are a couple of different ways of doing this) to add fake mountains to cover the valley, hence creating a tunnel effect.

I think it could be done, but not as well as some of you I'm sure hope, and it would be a lot of work.

I think if the team are going to do something like this, it's definately on their "To do if we have time" list.

[Makanyane]

You can add special maps to areas using the custom tiles method, however the custom tile is limited to the playable area so if you do use this method the distant objects will still be generated from the campaign map. It might be possible to make a three or so underground maps and repeat them along the road. you still won't see one from the other though so if you artificially narrow the tunnel on the custom tile it will still open out where it starts viewing distance. The advantages with M2 might be it does seem to block really stupidly steep slopes more than RTW did which would help.

Also skies are a bit more flexible (you're not stuck with 3 cloud types) if you can sacrifice a climate to this area - which you'd need to for strat map textures probably anyway - you should be able to give it a unique weather condition so it always has sky that looks like rock, and possibly a permanent haze/fog to stop you seeing the non-working distant views.

[fireblade]

The maps are generated from the campaign map, so if you put a road between mountains then the map will be a road between mountains.

This is in fact what I suggested, It will give the dwarf holds a connection between them, making it easier to reinforce each other and making it easier to attack the other holds when you've captured a first one.

In warhammer the dwarfs frequently travel through mountain passes anyway, as a large section of the tunnel network has been overrun by skaven/goblins. Just adding some roads would, in my opinion, add the flavour of the mountain empire, while not taking a great deal of time from the modding team.

fireblade

[Eufarius]

I most definetly agree fireblade.

[Revan-Shan]

This is in fact what I suggested, It will give the dwarf holds a connection between them, making it easier to reinforce each other and making it easier to attack the other holds when you've captured a first one.

In warhammer the dwarfs frequently travel through mountain passes anyway, as a large section of the tunnel network has been overrun by skaven/goblins. Just adding some roads would, in my opinion, add the flavour of the mountain empire, while not taking a great deal of time from the modding team.

fireblade

Yes and no. I agree with you in that the WHTW should have roads between mountains. But I also suggested to make black roads that would represent tunels. And every battle in a tunel would have its map: catacombs, mines...

And dont think the map would be so difficult to make. The only thing you need is:

-A black sky, not dark, totally black. This is done in all strategy and roll games when they need to see the entire battlefield. Mark of Chaos for example.

-Black horizon. Just the same explanation.

-As there is no sun the light would come from candles and torches all over the place. Or maybe just from the soldiers torches, as if it was a night battle.

-Anything to make the underground feeling. Tombs and skelletons, mine stuff, skaven settlement stuff, lizardmen tunel stuff or just cave stuff.

-A thing that would add more feeling is several objects tall enough so that you observe that all missiles don't go further than the cave's limits. For this there are two types of objects: columns and tall corridors and walls , and stalagtites and stalagmites.
-Note: The top part of this objects should be flat and black, as they represent the top of the cave.

-Doors in the walls would be just perfect, that way rooms could be created. Do you imagine a totalwar battle inside a Moria style map?

-No tunel walls surrounding the map. When the army's morale drops and they scape they should be able to run in any direction.
-And I quote myself: black horizon

To serve as an example:

http://moria.es.games-workshop.com/terrain/box_lid/images/box_final.jpg

http://moria.es.games-workshop.com/terrain/dwarfhall/images/13.jpg

Games Workshop has better pics of Moria in the White Dwarf but this is all I could find in Internet.

[Enthes]

the only problem is that buildings in METW are crap and the AI dosent know how to handle them (once had an entire battle of me following there army around a city hide and seek style :thumbsdown: )

[A Norseman]

To me, this sounds like extreme amounts of work for small benefit; it will most likely never be realized.
I think we should stop this discussion now and try to keep it real in future suggestions.

[Eufarius]

To me, this sounds like extreme amounts of work for small benefit; it will most likely never be realized.
I think we should stop this discussion now and try to keep it real in future suggestions.
I agree with A Norseman, it is simply too much work, at later stages possibly but I think all of us want to see the mod finished and then more work being added onto it.

[Alletun]

And dont think the map would be so difficult to make.

Revan-Shan ... how much do you know about modding?

First 3 points are do-able, to an extent. The rest: all night-battles, light from torches and candles all over the place, tunnel walls, doors etc. are not do-able. The settlement format havn't been cracked yet, so we can't even change how the cities look like (except the textures ...).

Ofcourse, since you think it is so easy to make, i suggest you head over to this thread and give your contributions and start modding in this tunnel/cave:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=89573

I actually find this post by Mirage to be quite fitting here. His mod Broken Crescent has a good change of being voted the most promising mod for m2tw, so i think it's a good idea to listen to what he has to say:



Also if you want to develop a new mod there is one key thing that separates success from instant failure: feasibilty and technical thinking.

My process of thinking has alway been in the order of:
Technicalities of TW -> New Ideas

That is you first think about what are the optimal areas that the game's engines can be exploited for and then you think of a mod idea. Far too often I see kid's dreaming up the theoretical idea first and then thinking about details only to become dissapointed that they discover that their most basic ideas will not be implemented. Seems like a basic idea, but its not really considered by a lot.

A good example are rookies that choose to do a mod in a different eras from a given engine that would in effect require settlement changes. Now lets face facts here - anyone with even minor technical knowledge of RTW/M2TW knows making new settlement templates is a goliath of a task.

From: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115780

So, suggestions are fine, but please do a minimum of research into the technicalities.

regards,
Alletun

[Revan-Shan]

So there can be no innovation.

Then all we can suggest for the future are new factions and units.

But lets dream a little bit more: Air units! I'm almost shure it's impossible, but doesn't matter, it's just a suggestion.:2thumbsup:

[alexader]

then we can put tanks inside,or we can include deep strikes for assassins and spaceships landing at the battlefield bringing more regiments of knights and swordsmen to die.or even super teleporter cannons,transfering the dwarves from their hold to another hold or even in the outer space.whatever,i think it's impossible,get to work modding team,(did i forgot anything?):book: :egypt:

[fireblade]

As to the suggestions:

Can some factions be given faction wide population growth bonuses? If this isn't possible, what about giving their buildings a growth bonus. For example, an orc barrack will also have a 0.5% growth bonus.

This way, some factions will be able to tech up newly captured settlements faster. Skaven will populate a new city a lot faster than elves, for example.

Will we still have to possibility to capture enemy settlements, or will there only be exterminate left? I don't think a human general will want a settlement still filled with orcs or undead. Off course, they will be less likely to kill an entire elf or dwarf population, but for the sake of simplicity, let's always exterminate them all. This way, you have to repopulate the settlements before they can be of any use, making population growth more important.

Fireblade

[Alletun]

So there can be no innovation.

please re-read my post

You will find that this is what im saying:
Suggestions are fine, wish-thinking is rather pointless.

[Revan-Shan]

I don't think a human general will want a settlement still filled with orcs or undead.Fireblade

The vampire counts have human servants, they are like imperial counts, just that they are vampires.
But the Tomb Kings I think they don't have humans. They kill every living thing.

[Jubal_Barca]

No, if you look at the TK armybook there is one Tomb King city where the living and the dead live in peace, the desert tribes fight alongside the Tomb Kings and they work toghether, the tribesmen provide scouts and help protect the Tombs while the dead attack anyone trying to destroy the tribesmen's livelihood.

[Eufarius]

I think for the orcs,skaven, the population boon that Fireblade suggested should be the most noticable.
For humans and chaos it should be less.
And so it should get lower for the older races on for the elves, dwarves,and lizardmen.
Just a thought.

[Myrddraal]

Revan-Shan, I'd suggest you have a play with the map editor...

[Revan-Shan]

I used a lot of time in map editors in the past and I don't want to continue with that.
continuous headaches :wall:
I preffer comments and waiting. :yes:

[Myrddraal]

Have you tried the RTW map editor? I'm just suggesting because perhaps it would help you to understand what can and can't be done.

[alexader]

i have came up with some special units for the empire.something like sea men,like marines or free companies sailors,the first armed with musket and swords(with both skills high)and the seconds armed with pistols(if it is possible like pistoliers)and swords,or just swords.those would be good,like high elves who have also marines.and to make it a little realistic,we can put very high upkeep if we put them in cities so we have to put them in the ships all the time.so we can raid all the time,with a small experienced army whenever we want.i think empire has units of marines(i remember them)so would be usefull to include them,available only in the near costal cities

[Eufarius]

Lets see what Bwian says

[Thalion]

Forgive me if it has already been mentioned but I have not yet read all of the threads and posts here ...

If it is possible, I think it would be a good idea to not allow the recruitment of troops from the other faction when you have captured one of their castles.
If the Empire captures a Chaos-Stronghold it should not be able to recruit Marauders etc ...

Maybe in certain cases the only option you get after conquering a city/castle should be "Kill all the inhabitants" or "Enslave population" ...

I can see the Empire taking over an Elven city (maybe), but I don't think Orcs would simply occupy a Dwarven stronghold and don't do anything to the population ...

[ellydog]

Forgive me if it has already been mentioned but I have not yet read all of the threads and posts here ...

If it is possible, I think it would be a good idea to not allow the recruitment of troops from the other faction when you have captured one of their castles.
If the Empire captures a Chaos-Stronghold it should not be able to recruit Marauders etc ...

Maybe in certain cases the only option you get after conquering a city/castle should be "Kill all the inhabitants" or "Enslave population" ...

I can see the Empire taking over an Elven city (maybe), but I don't think Orcs would simply occupy a Dwarven stronghold and don't do anything to the population ...

I think thats in stock build MTW2, as I remember as england i couldn't build french units.

[MangyElf]

I'll go out on a limb here and state categorically that it's a given you won't be able to recruit conquered units. If you could it'd be very lame, with balance out the window and situations where you're fielding a hodge podge army made up of anything and everything. If a faction can recruit units of another race there's always the mercenary option, which I think is the only way this can be done 'tastefully'.

[Eufarius]

Imagine this you've taken your the Empire ( HELL YEAH!!!!) and youve taken a orc settlement you wouldn't go recruiting orcs for the empire. Common sense, i think.

[Enthes]

Imagine this you've taken your the Empire ( HELL YEAH!!!!) and youve taken a orc settlement you wouldn't go recruiting orcs for the empire. Common sense, i think.

Imagine this your the Empire ( HELL YEAH!!!!) and youve taken a britonian settlement you would go recruiting britonians or high elves or kislev and even maurauders for the empire. Common sense, i think :laugh4:

[alexader]

i think i've noticed that you wrote a kind of same words.but nevermind.yes common sense i think:egypt:

[Eufarius]

Imagine this your the Empire ( HELL YEAH!!!!) and youve taken a britonian settlement you would go recruiting britonians or high elves or kislev and even maurauders for the empire. Common sense, i think :laugh4:
No need to be defensive. Maybe as mercenaries but, think about it High elves having dark elves as part of their troops

[MangyElf]

Imagine this your the Empire ( HELL YEAH!!!!) and youve taken a britonian settlement you would go recruiting britonians or high elves or kislev and even maurauders for the empire. Common sense, i think :laugh4:
In WH I don't remember seeing Empire armies made up different factions, unless you count mercenaries. In M2TW I don't recall seeing HRE armies made up of different factions either. Not really much sense, common or otherwise, to allowing it in this mod then, not if it doesn't fit with either the original game or the game that's it's being modelled on.

[Dogman55]

It could be cool if certain factions could have a 'special' unit from certain factions as long as it's in game/cannon parameters.

The only one I could think of is the Empire having one special Elf (Archery prob) or Dwarf (Axe thrower/warrior) unit to represent the elder races willingness to fight alongside the Men. I don't know other than those three if any other races are on good terms with one another. I do know that the Lizardmen would not, however. (Unless you take a special unit from the Southlands and put them in)

[Eufarius]

In WH I don't remember seeing Empire armies made up different factions, unless you count mercenaries. In M2TW I don't recall seeing HRE armies made up of different factions either. Not really much sense, common or otherwise, to allowing it in this mod then, not if it doesn't fit with either the original game or the game that's it's being modelled on.
Thats what I meant, i just could'n find the words for it. Thanks Mangy Elf:2thumbsup:

[Di Asturien]

Bretonnians could maybe have acess to one unit of Wood Elves, its not unheard of and the Dukedom of Quenelles is in very good terms with them.
Also bretonnia as a good longstanding relationship with the dwarves as well as a great trading relationship with the High elves.
This could compensate for Bretonnians not being able to take mercenaries.

[alexader]

i want to make a suggestion about the generals and the captens or officers of the units.i think it would be more better to include them in the middle of the front line of the unit and not in the flank,even the general would be better to fit him in the middle.with that we can get the fealling of the unit(like in the tabletop game)protecting their officers and also a better protection for them,like the slanns,they have to be in the centre of the regiment.they are more exposed in the flanks and they can die easily if the enemy charge them from there.what do you think about that Bwian,can it be modded?:book: .i believe that this results to a more carefully formations of the battle(even the feeling of warhammer)!!!!!!!!!!!!:egypt:

[Dreq-Kai]

I would like to make a suggestion;

Would it be possible for immortal races character to not die of old age? For example Saurus have never been known to die of old-age. I beleive there are traits already in the game that make the characters live longer, would tweaking these make the lifetime much much longer?

[MangyElf]

Thats what I meant, i just could'n find the words for it. Thanks Mangy Elf:2thumbsup:
Hey np, visit anytime for all your replying needs. We have a wide selection, from unnecessarily wordy on through to the house speciality, excessively mangy. Right now there's a discount on succinct replies and we're throwing in a free "wibble!" with every purchase! :p

wibble!

[Eufarius]

Yes! free wibbles.

[essi2]

I'll go out on a limb here and state categorically that it's a given you won't be able to recruit conquered units. If you could it'd be very lame, with balance out the window and situations where you're fielding a hodge podge army made up of anything and everything. If a faction can recruit units of another race there's always the mercenary option, which I think is the only way this can be done 'tastefully'.

It's the only way it can be done. you can't make a Warhammer mod that is
over the top unfluffy, the closer to the fluff the game is the better.

btw is it possible to restrict a faction from being able to recruit spesific units, or is the mercenary system only restricted by region?

it wouldn't be too "tasteful" to have Empire armies running around with orc mercenaries either:book:

[Thalion]

How is the terrain the battle is fought on decided on?

Does the original game have a battle map for every region (I only got my copy a couple of days ago, so I can't tell for sure) or are maps randomly generated?

If the first is true, will the modding team also generate battle maps for each region of the Warhammer world?

[Enthes]

How is the terrain the battle is fought on decided on?

Does the original game have a battle map for every region (I only got my copy a couple of days ago, so I can't tell for sure) or are maps randomly generated?

If the first is true, will the modding team also generate battle maps for each region of the Warhammer world?

the battle maps are randomly generated based on what type of tyle the battle is fought on

[Underway]

In WFB as far as mercenaries are concerned there are a few types any army can purchase from the "Dogs of War" list. They consist of:

Light Cav with shortbows or spears
Heavy cav with lances
Pikemen
Crossbowmen
Duelists (skirmishers with dueling swords and throwing daggers)
Dwarves with different types of weapons
Marauders
Halfling archers
Cannons
Halfling hot pot ( aka shoots hot soup in an iron pot at people)
Halberdiers
and the most important mercenary troops in the entire world

OGRES!!!! And different kinds as well.

Finally there are specialist troops like pivaise crossbowmen, undead, megil manhides manflayers etc.. etc.. but these are called regiments of renown and are connected to a special character and usually specific armies they can work with (aka HE mercenaries will not work with DE army).

[Raz]

I had a quick skim through this thread but couldn't find anything like it.

I'd like to bring up an idea that's been preying on my mind, with skeleton units shouldn't they have a high armour rating and low defense. This way, it shows that they are resistant to missiles whilst not making them invincible in melee.

You'd assume if you tried to fire an arrow into a skeleton, it'd probably pass right through it. :beam:

[Underway]

The problem with skelli stats is that they will require careful balancing. The won't run from a fight, cause fear but the basic ones are horrible in a fight in warhammer. They use characters to do their damage and mass numbers to win. If you get the edge on a skelli unit it falls apart. Also undead never tire out so will always be "fresh"

I don't think there is an option for skellis to disolve in the game. If they never run away then you have to kill every single skelli in order to win the battle. That means very long battles. If they never run they should be easier to kill.

See the difficulty? Besides warhammer makes no distinction between missile defence and melee defence.

[MangyElf]

It's the only way it can be done. you can't make a Warhammer mod that is
over the top unfluffy, the closer to the fluff the game is the better.
Yes, I think you'll find that was my point. I don't for one moment think that the mod team would consider making factions inconsistent with the basics of WH.

-------------------------------
Why should I spam a seperate reply when one post will do... ;)


Besides warhammer makes no distinction between missile defence and melee defence.

True but M2TW does and that makes it a definate consideration to make ranged attacks work according to the system on which the mod will be played. There are certain things to ponder about ranged attacks, such as range vs movement and the fact that in M2TW, ranged attacks will bypass the defensive component of armour while melee attacks will not. It's inescapable unless defensive factors are not used and yet, if they aren't, how would you convert the effect of WS vs WS on to hit chances in WH? Defense is the logical stat to use for this because it's a similar mechanism, even if the forumlas used in each game differ.

[Silaris]

My suggestion concerns how the mod will be released. At the moment, you are working towards numerous races, and a campaign map. Not easily done, as you well know. So my suggestion is about reducing your workload for the time being, or rather streamlining your workload.

On Roman Total War, a mod was made for it called Fourth Age Total War (I believe that is the one I have thinking of), another mod based on a fantasy world, namely Tolkien's Middle-Earth. Now, they were clever in their approach to releases, since they would only make a small portion of the map and two or three races to do with that section -then- release the mod. It allowed their scope to be smaller meaning they could focus more upon those 2-3 races. It also meant that releases were swifter, keeping the playerbase more keen and excited about having all the races.

So my suggestion is to select two popular races whom start close together, terrain the map for those two areas. Get them finished, release, then add one more race at a time, giving a slightly extended map and an extra race to play in campaign and skirmish mode. This would make your workload far far easier.

[Silly Knicket]

Perhaps this thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=147398
could be informative for creating faction specific cities and such?

[Eufarius]

Bwian said he would release all the factions that he has set his mind to do. So no provincial campaigns.

[Solus]

Make units if one guy (yup thats pretty small), then, make them super strong, and you've got yourself heroes that can move independently from the rest of the units. There will only be one problem, you have to make sure that players will not be able to make more then one hero.

[Myrddraal]

Well that would be easy, just make them unbuildable and have them start on the map. The problem is making one man units :smile:

[Eufarius]

Yup its called hardcoded, positively can't do it.

[Myrddraal]

Well, there are workarounds. It is possible, but hard work.

[Dead Guy]

the battle maps are randomly generated based on what type of tyle the battle is fought on

That's strange, I could have sworn I've fought on exactly the same map several times the same turn, and several different turns on the same tile... Two examples are a bridge I like to camp on, and also the tile north east of Milan. At least if I'm attacked from the same direction, I thought it was exactly the same map.
Sorry btw for being a little off-topic

[Decker]

That's strange, I could have sworn I've fought on exactly the same map several times the same turn, and several different turns on the same tile... Two examples are a bridge I like to camp on, and also the tile north east of Milan. At least if I'm attacked from the same direction, I thought it was exactly the same map.
Sorry btw for being a little off-topic
Umm... maybe because you've been camping on the same tile the whole time??

[Myrddraal]

To clarify a bit, the maps are not random. They are generated from a seed and campaign map info. If there's a river on the campaign map, there'll be a river on the battlemap, same with forests/mountains etc.

[Dead Guy]

I guess what I'm wondering is if the map for a tile is randomly generated but then stays the same throughout the campaing, or if it's re-generated each time there's a battle on it.

[Makanyane]

The battle map is formed from the same information that makes up the campaign map. Unless you physically alter the map files by modding you will always get the same battlemap for the same spot on the campaign map. Though you get a slight difference of army positioning according to which direction you're attacked from.

The only random elements relate to weather and lighting (time of day it uses), but the terrain will stay the same unless you mod the files.....

[Eufarius]

All hail Mak for the perfect explanation.

[Raz]

I don't really want to make another thread for this question since I'm not sure if it's already been answered, so I'll post it here:
This modification is for M2TW or M2TW+Kingdoms?

[fireblade]

Medieval 2 I think, not kingdoms.

Fireblade

[Goncalou]

Is this a good dark elf name: Kazimir Asur-Slayer, cause i remember reading it somewhere and i think it sounds cool so it would sweet if you could make a general named that.:spain: :knight:

[Eufarius]

Random^ it's for m2tw.

[Silly Knicket]

Are you sure? One of the dwarven units posted as a screenshot earlier seemed to use the fire effects from Kingdoms.

[Severe]

Are you sure? One of the dwarven units posted as a screenshot earlier seemed to use the fire effects from Kingdoms.

From what I understand, the fire effect is not actually the one from Kingdoms. Or it is, but does not require Kingdoms. Either way, you won't need Kingsoms to play this mod.

[Eufarius]

The fire effect IS from Kindoms but you don't need it to play you just copy the MESH and the ANI files and voila.:2thumbsup:

[Cambyses]

Quick suggestion: All races should have be able to build a "Bloodbowl Stadium". Suitably renamed of course in order not to infringe copyright etc.

Family members who live in a city with the stadium can randomly gain ancillaries like Chaos Cup etc to indicate they own a winning team and gain some kind of income/influence bonus :2thumbsup:

You can also have "[former] bloodbowl star player" as a trait giving +x hitpoints.

Then, really if this is a popular idea it can be taken a lot further with all sorts of different possibilities depending on positions played giving different + or - bonuses, whether likes a running or passing game etc etc

[Myrddraal]

Suitably renamed of course in order not to infringe copyright etc.

I believe GW have a very leanient CR policy when it comes to mods. So long as the mod is only Warhammer, and you don't include Warhammer idea's into your own fantasy, it's ok to use.

[Severe]

Quick suggestion: All races should have be able to build a "Bloodbowl Stadium". Suitably renamed of course in order not to infringe copyright etc.

Family members who live in a city with the stadium can randomly gain ancillaries like Chaos Cup etc to indicate they own a winning team and gain some kind of income/influence bonus :2thumbsup:

You can also have "[former] bloodbowl star player" as a trait giving +x hitpoints.

Then, really if this is a popular idea it can be taken a lot further with all sorts of different possibilities depending on positions played giving different + or - bonuses, whether likes a running or passing game etc etc

At most, I think Bloodbowl should make a cameo appearance. Relating it to game effects should be limited, as Blood Bowl is a bit of a parallel universe to Warhammer. Having a stadium of some sort makes sense for some races but not all.

[DrZoidberg]

I think having Bloodbowl related traits and even buildings in cities, I think is a great idea. It isn't a major thing in the WH universe so I don't think it should be more than simply referenced

[Jubal_Barca]

Blood bowl is set 1000s of years after WHFB, they have bloody chainsaws and maniac stuff, i would be aginst incuding it in the mod.

[pike master]

please leave magic and role playing out. Leave it purely tactical and strategic.

[Goncalou]

It doesn't, it's ruins were completely destroyed by Magnus the Pious and his army after defeating the chaos incursion.

Under the reign of Karl Franz, the empire is a fairly stable realm, but nothing suggest the lords wouldn't rebel if they think they can get away with it. So maybe give a number of generals low loyalty, but that's it.

fireblade
Really, i thought that was the city that had a piece of warpstone crash into, but if it;s not please tell me which one got annihilated by warpstone so i dont have to go looking in my books.:thinking2:
Oh and i have idea for magic, if it's not already tooken i think it really good idea i came up with, so here it is. Make the mage guarded by good but not elite infantry like siege engine then make them have 2 or 3 long range attacks like siege engine's normal and flaming missiles, please tell me if it can be done cause then it would be more like real warhammer when a mage joins a group, thanks.

[fireblade]

If you are talking about mordheim, yes, the city was hit by a meteor a.k.a twin-tailed comet a.k.a Sigmar's righteous fury. After that it became a dark place, with numerous warbands fighting in the ruins. Be'Lakor resided there for some time as well. After the defeat of asavar kul near kislev, the new emperor of the empire (duh!) destroyed every remnant of the city.

From what i have heard, the problem with war machine wizards is that their 'bodyguard' tends to abandon them when they are attacked.

Fireblade

[Spankfurt]

please leave magic and role playing out. Leave it purely tactical and strategic.

Please leave useless spam out. Leave it purely what Warhammer is all about.

[Goncalou]

you got it pretty much right but since i have book handy i can tell all.
Units Champion
Spearmen (recruited at barracks) Lordling
Crossbowmen (recruited at archery range) Lordling
Shades (i have no idea. they live in mountains) Blood Shades
cold one knights (recruited at stables) Dread knight
cold one chariots (recruited at stables) none
reaper bolt thrower (recruited at ballista maker) none
dark riders (recruited at stables) Herald
witch elves (recruited at temple, like norse war clerics) Hag
corsairs (recruited at port kind of like merchant cavalry militia) Reaver
executioners (recruited at barracks) Draich-Master
cauldron of blood (increases morale, decreases enemy morale) none
harpies (undoable, they have flying) none
black guard (high morale, pikes)
War hydra (pretty sure it's undoable)

Major Heroes

Malekith (king)
Morathi (mother of malekith/ maybe queen, maybe family member)
Malus Darkbalde (great general, maybe decreases morale of allies and enemies, general or family member)
Hellebron (leader of witch elves)
Shadowblade (really good assassin)
Rakarth (good general, bonus when commanding cavalry, general)
Tullaris of Har Ganeth(inspires fear to enemy units, general)
Kouran captain of the Black Guard(same as cauldron of blood, general)

Minor heroes

Highborn (family member)
High Sorceress (dont no how magic will work)
Noble (general)
Sorceress (same as high sorceress)
Assassin (he's an assassin)
Beastmaster (i have no idea)

Special Abilities
More gold from sacking settlements
Ships have more movement points
Assassin start out with at least 3 agents skill
More income from mines

:idea2:

[Caradrayan]

This has probably been discussed before, but I haven't seen it. Medieval II has the religion stat, which alot of traits and such are based on. (bonus command vrs muslims and such) In Warhammer, religion plays a part, but every faction has its own beliefs, with a little overlap among elves.

I suggest that this stat should be used, but more like it's used in the Brittania campaign in Kingdoms than religion. I would call it 'ethnicity' or some such, and it would make sudden sweeps of conquest difficult. Every faction would have ethnicity, and conquering a faction of a different ethnicity would be difficult, especially without purges. Then, you could add traits or buildings that make it easier for some races to convert. Chaos should have a corrupting effect just from bordering another faction, and swiftly convert anything they conquer. Orcs and Goblins would also have high conversion rates, coupled with high growth rates. Empire and Brettonia would be average, of course. Elves, and Dwarves should take a while. I'm not sure how Vamps and khemri should be treated, but I would leave them in the middle. probably skaven as well.

[Flying Pig]

There are some characters in Warhammer so powerful that they can kill whole armies (Greater Daemons of Khorne spring to mind) so do you think a bloodthirster could be made with a ton of health and the power to tear down walls?

Also magic: Is there a way to convince it that your wizard is a trebuchet? Because with work on the missile image it could be a fireball or wierd chaos wotzit of doom.

[Raz]

The Blue Lotus mod for RTW has monks that cast fireballs... it's been a while since I played that mod or dropped by their forums so I don't know how it's coming along... But a new projectile that explodes on contact with the ground should do the trick. :2thumbsup:

Bwian should know all the specifics though. I'll wait patiently to see what he has to say. Wait, he does come by here, right?