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econ21
05-27-2007, 20:27
This thread is for all out of character discussion of the King of the Romans PBM - a HRE M2TW game. Please post in this thread if you have any queries or are unsure where to post.


*************KOTR FAQ (UPDATED)**********************

The following paragraphs are designed to provide a simple understanding of the KOTR game and how it works. If anything in these paragraphs conflicts with one of the Game Rules, the Rule takes precedent.

Introduction

The general idea of the King of the Romans (KOTR) game is to allow a large group of players to determine the fate and development of the Holy Roman Empire in M2TW.

All players are “Electors” and will belong to one of the four Ducal Houses, Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). Eventually all players will be represented by an in-game character known as an “avatar.” This will typically be a general, but agents such as spies, priests or diplomats can be used as well upon request. It is not advisable to use an assassin as an avatar, as they have short life expectancies. If a player’s avatar gets into a battle, the player is expected to download the savegame and fight the battle.

Collectively, the Electors form the Imperial Diet. This has two functions - to elect a Chancellor and to create Edicts. The Chancellor will be the “reigning player” and control the game during his term in office. He will move all the generals, authorize any buildings from the build queues and train any units/agents. “Edicts” are laws that require the Chancellor to take specific actions. These can be very wide ranging in scope, but typically include such things as declaring war against another nation, seeking an alliance with a neutral country, or making peace with an enemy nation.

How to Join the Game

In order to join the game and get started, all you need to do is post in the current OOC thread that you would like to join and select one of the four Ducal Houses. You can then start participating in as much or as little detail as you wish. You will always be able to find the location of the relevant game threads in the second post of the Imperial Library (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383644&postcount=2).

The Ranks

KOTR attempts to mimic the feudal political system of medieval Europe. There are several ranks which each player can obtain, all of which come with their own benefit and responsibilities. If you wish to be highly involved, you can take on roles that require more work and responsibility. If you wish to simply observe and cast votes during election times, you will have to do very little. The extent of your involvement is entirely up to you.

Electors

All players, except the Emperor, are Electors, even if they hold another rank. It is the lowest rank in the game and all new players begin at this level. As an Elector, you may speak in the Imperial Diet, propose one Edict per session, vote on Edicts, and vote for Chancellor. All Electors belong to one of the Ducal Houses. You are not required to follow the orders or suggestions of your Duke, but he has the ability to bestow and remove ranks and privileges. If you have ambitions to rise to a higher rank, carefully consider whether your Duke will approve of your actions or not.

It is important to remember that you can only freely propose one personal Edict per Diet session. Choose an issue that is important to you and think very carefully about how you word it. A poorly worded or unimportant Edict can easily be ignored and forgotten. The only way you can propose more than one Edict per Diet session is through the approval of your Duke.

Electors will be provided with avatars on the basis of seniority; first come, first served. Generals are the most popular avatars and there may be a waiting period to obtain one. Agent avatars can usually be obtained quickly, but are not as complex and are not really suited for players who wish to rise to a higher rank. If you take a general as an avatar, you will be expected to fight any battles the avatar gets into, assuming he commands the army. You will have 48 hours in which to fight the battle after you are notified about it. When that time expires, the battle will be autoresolved, which could result in the death of your avatar. If you do not want to fight battles and there is a shortage of generals for avatars, please do not accept one. If you want an avatar but do not wish to fight, please consider using an agent.

Counts

Counts are prominent nobles within their Houses. The title of Count can be bestowed upon an Elector by his Duke. The role of Count is identical to that of an Elector with a general avatar, with a few exceptions.

A Count rules over one of the settlements (city or castle) in his Ducal House. The Count may, at his discretion, determine the order in which buildings are created in that settlement (build queue). The Chancellor is not required to build anything in the settlement, but if something is built, it must be in the order determined by the Count. The Count can also set the tax rate in his settlement, if it is a city. Counts gain a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. Counts can name an heir to take over their lands when they die. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar who is not already a Count.

There are two kinds of Counts: Freehold Counts and Bonded Counts. The difference is simple. Freehold Counts are the natural born sons of a Duke. They cannot be removed from control of their settlement, though the Duke can still name another as his heir if a Freehold Count displeases him. Bonded Counts are non-blood sons of a Duke, such as adoptees, sons-in-law, or anyone else who is not a natural born son. Bonded Counts can be stripped of their titles and lands at any time and for any reason by the Duke.

Dukes

Dukes are the heads of the Houses. They are figures of authority and they wield a great deal of power. There is only one Duke per House and a player can only become Duke by being the Duke’s heir at the time of his death. The role of Duke has many more powers than that of Count and Dukes gain a significant influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

The Duke rules over the capital of his House and all provinces which do not have a Count. Just like with a Count, the Duke can determine the build queue and tax rate for these settlements, but he can give orders for as many of them as he wishes. Dukes are also responsible for promoting and demoting Bonded Counts. A Duke may give any Elector with a general avatar the rank of Count, making them a Bonded Count. He may take away their lands at any time or switch their lands as he sees fit. The Duke can name an heir to take over as head of his House when he dies. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar, and it is recommended (though not necessary) that the person already be a Count.

The Duke is responsible for managing the affairs of his House and will often be dealing directly with the Chancellor and the Kaiser in high-level political discussions. Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. These can be the Duke’s own Edicts, but it is recommended that the Duke pick at least some of them from amongst the ‘extras’ his Electors want to put forward. It would be entirely appropriate for the Duke to use incentives and threats to ensure that the policies he wants get put forward. However, remember that even these extra Edict proposals must come pre-seconded by two members of his House. Don’t anger too many of your Electors or they could prevent you from using your extra Edict proposals!

Finally, the Duke controls the Household Army. The Household Army is the House’s personal military force and it is largely independent of outside control. The Duke is responsible for determining where it is garrisoned, who commands it, and what orders it is given. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Stewards

Stewards are Electors who are temporarily acting as Dukes. KOTR originally started with two Stewards, but for the most part, the title of Steward is a temporary one bestowed on a House Elector for a short time when a Duke is unavailable to fulfill his duties. In reality, this happens when a player who is a Duke is going on vacation or is otherwise going to be out-of-touch with the game for a short period of time.

Stewards have all of the powers of Dukes for the duration of their term, except that they cannot name an heir.

Emperor (Kaiser)

The Holy Roman Emperor is the supreme head of the Empire. It is a hereditary position. (Note: This is not historical, but there’s no way to change this in-game.) While the Emperor is theoretically the most powerful man in the entire Empire, in the KOTR game he plays a more subtle role. The Emperor gains an influence bonus equal to his authority during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

First, the Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet. It is his job to maintain order in the Diet and ensure that it runs smoothly. If there is a dispute about the Game Rules, the Emperor will make the final decision about the proper manner to follow the Rules.

Second, the Emperor does not belong to any of the Ducal Houses. Upon inheriting the throne, they leave their old House for good and lose any other titles (Elector, Count, Duke) that they might have. The Emperor is expected to act for the good of the Empire, rather than an individual House. While Emperors are expected to be impartial, they will certainly have strong opinions about what is best for the Empire. This may in turn result in them siding with Houses that support their decisions and working against Houses that they believe are hurting the Empire.

Third, Emperors allocate newly captured provinces to the Ducal Houses. When a province is captured, it comes under the direct control of the Emperor, who can control them in the same manner that the Dukes and the Counts can control their own lands. The Emperor may allocate any of his lands to any of the Ducal Houses. Once allocated, they cannot ever be returned to the Emperor. House provinces where are re-taken after being occupied by an enemy do not count as being “captured.”

Fourth, Emperors decide which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.

Finally, Emperors can automatically assume the position of Chancellor for the first term after they are crowned. This power is not subject to Diet vote and no one can run against them. However, the Emperor still has the limitations of Chancellor while in office, which means he can be impeached by the Diet in exceptional circumstances. Any further attempts by the Emperor to be Chancellor must go through the normal election process.

Prince (Prinz)

The Prince is a largely unimportant role, significant mainly because he is the heir to the throne and will become the next Emperor. Unlike the title of Emperor, the title of Prince is added in addition to any other titles the player holds. This gives the player a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. The Prince’s only duty is to preside over the Diet when the Emperor is absent.

There is no control over who becomes the new Prince once the current one assumes the throne. Like with the Emperor, this is a limitation imposed on us by the game itself. With luck, the role will only fall on players who seek to be active in the game. (*cross your fingers!*)

In practical terms, players must always remember that the Prince will inherit the throne, thus gaining power over the Houses through his ability to allocate newly conquered provinces. If you make an enemy of the Prince, your House might find itself smaller than the others when he becomes Emperor.

Chancellor

The position of Chancellor is without a doubt the most important and powerful one in KOTR. In game terms, the Chancellor is the person who actually plays the M2TW game. Unlike the other positions, you shouldn’t think of the Chancellor in the sense of what he can do, but rather what he cannot do. He is essentially playing the single player M2TW campaign with the following restrictions:

The Chancellor must obey the Game Rules and Edicts that have been passed by the Diet. Failure to do so can lead to impeachment by the Diet.

The Chancellor decides whether buildings are to be constructed in all settlements. If a settlement has a build queue from a Count, Duke, or Emperor, then he must build the items on that list in the order listed. However, he does not have to build anything at all if he does not want to, he only has to follow the build queue if he does decide to build something. If a settlement has no build queue for whatever reason, the Chancellor can build whatever he likes.

The Chancellor moves the armies and hands out saved games to be played by the appropriate generals. He can fight battles that his avatar is commanding whenever he wants without pause, but must give other players 48 hours to fight their battles. If a player exceeds the time limit or if the battle is lead by a Captain or a general that is not represented by a player, the battle must be autoresolved. The only exception to the Chancellor’s control over the armies are the Household Armies. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Essentially everything else is free game. If there isn’t a Rule or Edict about it, the Chancellor can do whatever he wants. The Chancellor’s term last for 10 game turns (20 game years), but he can run for re-election if he wishes. In recognition for his contributions, the Chancellor gets a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor, even after he leaves office.


***************KOTR GAME RULES**************

Game settings

*MT2TW with the 1.2 patch
*Hard campaigns, very hard battles.
*Large unit size.
*Battle timer on. Show CPU Moves, Manage all Settlements
Standard victory conditions (45 provinces, including Rome).

Charter Amendment 6.2: Medifix will no longer be used and in its stead, FactionHeir's trait and ancillary fixes will be implemented. He will also take full responsibility of any issues regarding these files, however unlikely these may be after extensive testing.

The only mod we will use initially consists of the trait and ancillary files created by factionheir, available to download at:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix124.rar

The readme is in the spoiler tags.


KOTRfixREADME.txt
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START OF README
-
Version 1.24 (22-05-2007)


This package contains 2 folders and 6 files, one of which is the readme you are currently reading.
I have included folders as this will make it easier for you to figure where a file is to go and prevent errors.
As you can see, one folder is named "data" and another one inside this data folder is labelled "text"
To install the fixes, simply extract/move the data folder directly from the package into your root medieval directory.
This means that after doing so, you should find following files in your medieval/data folder:
export_descr_character_traits.txt
export_descr_ancillaries.txt
export_descr_vnvs_enums.txt

And a folder in your data folder named "text"
Inside that folder, you should find:
export_ancillaries.txt.string.bin
export_VnVs.txt.strings.bin


You do not need to extract the readme, as this is purely informational for this installation only.

In short (for the impatient and to quick check):

-Extract data folder directly into medieval game directory.
-Make sure your medieval directory now has a data folder (already present before extracting) and a text folder within (usually not present before)
-Make sure the following files are found inside the data folder:
export_descr_character_traits.txt
export_descr_ancillaries.txt
export_descr_vnvs_enums.txt
-Make sure the following files are found inside the text folder:
export_ancillaries.txt.string.bin
export_VnVs.txt.strings.bin


Now to apply those fixes, you will need to run your medieval game exe using a shortcut or a bat file.
The target of said file should read similar to this:

D:\Medieval\medieval2.exe --io.file_first

Where "D:\Medieval\" varies depending on your installation but medieval2.exe --io.file_first should be constant.

If you encounter any issues with my fixes, please let me know via any means you feel necessary and I will investigate.
As per current version, there are no errors showing up in the medieval error log that are from these fixes.

Also note that those fixes work retroactively in any savegame and at the same time also allow a savegame to continue working without the fixes installed.
As such, it is perfectly safe to use and will not necessitate its continued usage once a game is started.
However as per Charter Amendment 6.2 for the KOTR PBM, this fix is to be used by the chancellor currently running the game.

I hope you enjoy the fixes and if you have problems or suggestions, please let me know.

FactionHeir

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END OF README
-




At a later stage, we may use a mod to give the Forlorn Hope 2 hitpoints.

Charter Amendment CAE1.1: econ21 will be authorised to give AI factions extra florins; for example, by gifting them a lump sum every 10 turns or so.

To increase the difficulty, the AI will periodically be given money via the consol. Details in the spoil.

I plan to give 100000 gold to the AI each Diet (ie every 10 turns). The command for this is:

add_money hungary, 100000

The factions which will benefit initially are:

england
france
spain
venice
sicily
milan
scotland
byzantium
russia
moors
turks
egypt
denmark
portugal
poland
hungary

The Mongols, Timurids and Aztecs may be included at a later stage.



Hard restrictions on play: * only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.

How to play - detailed rules


1. The role of players.

1.1 Each player will roleplay an “elector” of the HRE. They must choose one of four noble houses to belong to. Players are born into a noble House. It is in their blood and cannot be changed. It is determined by which of the four lines on the family tree their avatar falls under (except for the three starter Generals, for whom it is determined by their initial geography). [Note - if avatars spawn disproportionately in certain Houses, Electors of one House may be offered an avatar of another, but then they effectively role-play a new character.]

*Charter Amendment 9.2: Add to article 1.1:
In view of exceptional circumstances, the von Mahren family is allowed to join the House of Austria.

1.2 Over time, all players will be assigned an avatar (typically a general) by econ21 to represent them. They should roleplay their traits.

1.3 Players whose avatars lead in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved.

1.4 Players whose avatars are Counts are entitled to set the taxes and build queue of that settlement. If anything is built in the settlement, it must be the first item on the build queue.
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 1: Amend 1.4 by adding: If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Chancellor can build what he likes. The Chancellor may upgrade a settlement at any time (ie upgrade the walls regardless of a build queue), unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the governor.

1.5 Each elector will periodically vote to elect a Chancellor (reigning player) of the HRE and on edicts to direct him.

1.6 Players are encouraged to stand for the post of Chancellor.

1.7 Players are encouraged to write in-character stories in the stories thread; to discuss matters of state in the Imperial Diet deliberations thread; to write-up battle reports; to PM each other in character for role-playing etc. [Note: when posting screenshots, we could keep them full size but put them under spoiler tags.]


2. The role of the Chancellor.

2.1 The Chancellor is much like the player of a solo M2TW campaign - he moves all the units and agents on the map; he decides all the buildings and which units/agents to be trained.

2.2 However, he delegates battles to the player whose general leads the HRE force. And he follows the build queues and tax policies of players with governors.

2.3 He also must obey Imperial edicts and the constitution (these rules) or face political consequences.

2.4 The Chancellor is elected every 10 turns. Incumbent Chancellors can run for re-election if they wish.

2.5 The Chancellor must appoint army commanders. He must maintain a list of who has what post and notify players if they are appointed or dismissed from a role.

2.6 Battles are only fought manually when commanded by a player controlled general who is an army commander. They are autoresolved in all other cases (e.g. captain-led armies).


3. The role of the Imperial Diet

3.1. The Imperial Diet will meet in session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each session lasts 3 days of real time.

3.2. At each session, nobles can propose edicts. These require two seconders to be put to the vote. Edicts are laws that direct what the Chancellor should do.

Charter Ammendment 5.2: Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose THREE House edicts per Diet provided that they have previously securing the backing of two other members of their House.

3.3. Any declaration of war must be authorised by an Imperial edict. The Chancellor or any Duke is empowered to declare war on a non-allied army entering its lands.

*3.4. The rules of the game can be changed by a Noble Charter Amendments (2/3 majority required) except those marked with a *.

3.5. Tied edicts fail. If contradictory edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority.

3.6. Edicts can only last for 10 turns.

3.7. Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

*3.8. The Chancellor can be impeached and removed from office by a 2/3 majority of the Imperial Diet.

3.9. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final. The Prince can preside in the absence of the Emperor. The Emperor can call an emergency session of the Imperial Diet - freeze the game - at will.
Charter Amendment 8.2: In addition to the Kaiser, an Emergency Session of the Diet may be called by the Prinz, or if three of the four House leaders (Dukes or Stewards) agree to do so.

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +5 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 3 points):
Duke: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.

Charter Amendment 6.7: Any decision that would lead to the excommunication of the Reich has to be authorized by a Diet vote, requiring a 2/3 majority. In the event of a conflict, this Amendment supercedes Rule 3.3 and Charter Amendment 5.1.


4. The role of the four houses - Dukes and Counts

4.1 There will be four houses representing the four main branches of the family tree: Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). At the start of the game, Prince Henry is Duke of Swabia and Leopold is Duke of Austria. The Dukes of Franconia and Bavaria have not yet been spawned (they will be the two males who take positions under the Emperor in the family tree).

4.2 Bavaria and Franconia have no Duke yet, so there are Stewards to act in their place until them. Until there is a Duke, they receive the +2 influence of a Duke.

Charter Amendment 3.1: Stewards may bestow the rank of Count on nobles of their House. This Amendment does not give Stewards any other Ducal power, it does not give Stewards additional Influence, nor does it allow Stewards to be Counts themselves.

The Stewards themselves are not Counts. Like Otto in Innsbruck, they are just soldiers, self-made men of lesser station [think Denethor in Lord of the Rings]. They could be rewarded by being made a Count by their Duke when he spawns, though. And they could marry into the Royal line, potentially becoming the Duke themselves.

4.3 The Emperor controls the initial allocation of settlements (e.g. upon conquest). At the start of the game, we have:

Frankfurt - capital of Franconia, home of the Duke (TBC)
Stafen - capital of Swabia, home of the Duke (Prince Henry)
Nuremburg - capital of Bavaria, home of the Duke (TBC)
Innsbruck - second city of Bavaria
Vienna - capital of Austria, home of the Duke (Leopold)
Bologna - is not assigned to any house

4.4 Dukes can then grant a settlement to a player, making him Count of that settlement. The settlements remain nominally within the relevant Duchy. There are no Counts at the start of the game. Capitals of a House need no Counts and cannot be given to them - they belong to the Duke (or his Steward). The Emperor could allocate Bologna to a House at any time, but after that, it will permanently belong to that House. There is an expectation that Franconia will extend north, Swabia west, Bavaria south and Austria east but this should not be followed too rigidly - e.g. the Emperor does not have to give Bologna to Bavaria.

[Note: It is expected that settlements will not be gifted lightly by the Emperor and by Dukes/Stewards - they should be regarded as precious rewards. There is no particular value to settlements in themselves, however. Avatars will be assigned according to the family tree, so more settlements does not mean more family members in a House - nor does it raise influence (beyond the one-off +1 for being a Count). A player cannot be the Count of more than one settlement. Dukes can have more than one settlement not dispersed to counts (and given the ratio of settlements to generals in a game, this is inevitable), but this provides no particular benefits.]

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

4.6 Counts who are not the natural sons of a Duke (e.g. adoptees and sons in law) may be lose their titles at the whim of the Duke. They are referred to as bonded Counts and are expected to act according to the wishes of their Duke. Natural sons of a Duke may not lose their settlements - they are referred to as freehold Counts.

4.7 Dukes and Counts should name a successor, who will take over their titles and settlements when they die. If no successor is named, the oldest natural son inherits, (if none, oldest adopted son; if none again, then the oldest son-in-law).
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 2: Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.

4.8 Dukes are expected to guide their families for the good for their Duchies. Members of a house do not have to follow their Dukes in terms of politics. However, the Duke can make players a Count by giving them a settlement (granting them +1 influence). Only the Duke of your House (not another Duke) can make you a Count. Houses will not be the only division in the Diet - chivalry, piety, strategy and other factors may also divide players.

Charter Amendment 6.3: Dukes may bestow the title of Count on Electors without avatars.


5 The role of the Emperor and Prince

5.1 The Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet as in 3.9. He is the "chairman" of the HRE, as opposed to the Chancellor who is the "chief executive". He will keep order in the Diet and try to make things run smoothly.

5.2 Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.

5.3 The Emperor can allocate settlements to one of the Four Houses.

5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes.

5.5 The Prince succeeds the Emperor and can deputise in his absence.

5.6 Emperors do not belong to factions - if crowned, they leave their House and - if Duke - are replaced by their chosen successor. They are expected to act for the good of the Empire and be impartial, above petty regional politics.

5.7 The Emperor decides which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.


6. Armies and Battles

Rules 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 have been removed.

6.4 For field armies of seven or more units (including the general), the Chancellor must appoint an “army commander”. The army commander must be a “knight”. Army commanders are appointed for the duration of the Imperial Diet session (10 turn intervals). The post is expected to be rotating. Army commanders can decide what to do with prisoners after battle. They can be dismissed by Chancellors, but must be informed of this.

6.5 Avatars who take part in battles may be promoted to “knights” by the army commander. Typically, this will involve the avatar’s bodyguard fighting honourably in a battle. The Emperor, Prince and four Dukes begin the game knighted.

6.6 The title of Field Marshall shall be given to the commanders of the Household Armies for the duration of their command.
Charter Amendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed.

Charter Amendment 5.1: Each Duchy shall have a Household Army with which to defend its territories. The Household Army will be governed by the following clauses:

1) The Household Army may not be removed from the House’s provinces without the permission of the Duke.
2) The Duke will determine where the Household Army is to be garrisoned. This location can be changed at any time, so long as the Duke informs the Chancellor of the move. The Chancellor will not remove the Household Army from the garrison without the Duke’s permission, except as required to fulfill Clause 4.
3) The Duke will determine who commands the Household Army.
4) At the beginning of each Diet session the Duke may assign general orders to the Household Army, which are to be carried out by the Chancellor. Between Diet sessions, any additional orders submitted by Dukes are to be implemented only at the Chancellor's discretion. The Duke may select one of the following Orders: (1) attack any rebel force in House territory, (2) attack any hostile force in House territory, including other factions, (3) attack any foreign or rebel army in House territory, including neutral (but not allied or crusading) factions, (4) temporary assignment to another House, (5) assignment to offensive duties. If Order (4) is chosen, the Duke may determine the time limit of the temporary assignment and the commanding general, but all other decisions are made by the Duke of the receiving house. When the time limit expires, the Household Army must be immediately returned to House lands, no matter what other circumstances occur, unless the Duke agrees otherwise. If Order (5) is chosen, the Duke may specify an enemy settlement or army as the objective and the commanding general. The settlement or army must be in a province that borders the House and the Reich must already be at war with the target. All other decisions are made by the Chancellor. The Duke may recall the Household Army from offensive duties at any time and for any reason.
5) The Household Army will consist of a minimum of 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. The Household Army will ideally consist of 4 infantry regiments, 3 ranged regiments, and 2 cavalry regiments. For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments. All regiments must be professional soldiers, not militia.
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
7) The Chancellor will attempt to maintain the Household Armies at full strength, with the highest quality regiments available.
8) In emergencies, the Chancellor may detach any units in excess of the minimum strength level for use elsewhere. The Chancellor may not reduce a Household Army below the minimum strength level without the permission of the Duke.
9) If the Imperial Treasury cannot support all Household Armies at minimum strength, the Chancellor must consult with the Dukes and receive their permission to reduce the Household Armies in such a way as to eliminate the deficit.
10) The Imperial Diet may temporarily remove any or all of these rules by a simple majority vote. The temporary period will last no longer than 10 turns.

7. Crusades and missions.

7.1 The Chancellor must endeavour to follow missions from the Pope and Council of Nobles, unless exempted by the Diet. Missions from guilds and foreign powers are optional.

7.2 Crusades must be authorised by the Diet, unless announced by another faction.

7.3 When a crusade is called, the Chancellor must ask all generals if they wish to join. He must include at least three volunteers who reply within 48 hours. If there are more than three, he must pick the three most pious. However, he can decline a volunteer if that would usurp his pick of army commander. If the AI calls a crusade, the Chancellor can choose not to follow it, even if generals wish to join - but he must still notify them immediately of the call and get their view on whether they would like to join (were he to follow the call).

*Charter Amendment 9.1:

The Charter of the Kingdom of Outremer

1. The Kingdom of Outremer will consist of Antioch, Acre, Adana, Aleppo, Edessa and Damascus.

2. The Kingdom of Outremer is an integral part of the Reich. It is not a fifth House.

3. The function of the Kingdom is defensive: to safeguard Jerusalem and protect the gateway to Christendom

4. The Kingdom will be overseen by a King of Outremer, who will be appointed by the Emperor at each full Diet session. The King will temporarily renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his appointment (e.g. if Duke, must appoint a Steward).

5. The King will command a Household Army, both acting according to Charter Amendment 5.2 (with the King assuming the role of “Duke”). He may delegate the day to day command of the Army (assign other generals to lead it in battle). However, contrary to CA5.2, to be in accordance with article (1), the Army may not be used to permanently conquer neighbouring provinces (recapturing Christian settlements taken by non-Christians and returning them to their original owners would be allowed).

6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count.

7. Both the King and Crusading Counts must be physically located outside Europe for the duration of their appointments.

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia. Antioch will be the capital of Outremer and an Imperial province governed by the King of Outremer. Edessa will also be an Imperial province, governed by a Count chosen by the King of Outremer. The Crusading Count for a settlement must come from the appropriate House. They will gain an additional +1 influence (over and above any influence for being a Count of a European settlement) but only for the Diet session that marks their appointment. The cap of 5 influence for all but the Emperor remains.


8. Historical armies

Only historical armies can fight battles (ahistorical stacks can be used for transport).

No more than half an army can be mercenary. Crusader mercenaries (crusader sergeants, crusader knights, pilgrims, fanatics) can count as natives.

Revised maxima for each unit type by number of units in stack

3^Type|1-5|6-10|11-15|16+
7^Generals|2|2|2|2
7^Knights|2|4|6|8
7^Cavalry|2|4|6|8
7^Missile inf|2|3|4|6
7^Elite inf|2|3|4|6
7^Other foot|Any|Any|Any|Any
7^Artillery|1|2|3|4


Crusades are exempt from restrictions on the number of generals.

Unit type definitions:
- Knights: Dismtd Feudal knights; Dismtd Imperial knights; Dismtd Gothic knights; Mailed knights; Feudal knights; Imperial knights; Teutonic knights; General’s bodyguard; Gothic knights; plus any mercenary knights or equivalent heavy cavalry.
- Cavalry: Any mounted knights plus non-knightly cavalry (Mounted crossbowmen ; Reiters; Merchant cavalry; Mounted sergeants, Turcomans etc)
-Foot missiles: Peasant archers; Peasant crossbowmen; Crossbow militia; Pavisse crossbowmen; Arquebusiers; Handgunners etc
-Elite infantry: Zweihander; Forlorn Hope; Landsknechts; dismounted knights and equivalent mercs - e.g. Galllowglass
-Other foot: Peasants; Town militia; Halberd militia; Spear militia; Sergeant spearmen; Armoured spearmen; Crusader sergeants; Pike militia

Old rules in spoil.

The following rules apply for field armies of 15+ or more units.

Generals - max 2 units
Knights - cavalry or foot, max 8 units inc. generals

Total cavalry - maximum 8 units, inc mounted knights and generals

Artillery - maximum 2 units (5 in a siege - if caught in a field battle immediately withdraw excess of over two)
Foot missiles - maximum 6 units including artillery

Total elite heavy infantry - max 6

Other spears & feudal foot - unlimited

For armies of size 7-14, the above limits are halved.


Here's the old german titles of nobility and our equivalents:

Political
Elector = Kurfurst
Count = Graf
Duke = Herzog
Prince = Prinz
Emperor = Kaiser

Military
Knight = Ritter
Field Marshal = Generalfeldmarshal

Warluster
05-27-2007, 23:13
How long d'you reckon this thread will last? :)

TinCow
05-28-2007, 00:45
From now on, can we have all Charter Amendments put straight into the rules? I've been keeping them in the Current Legislation section of the Library, but it's starting to overflow with them. For reference, here are all the ones that are in effect but are not in the rules:

Charter Amendment CAE1.1: econ21 will be authorised to give AI factions extra florins; for example, by gifting them a lump sum every 10 turns or so.

Charter Amendment 6.2: Medifix will no longer be used and in its stead, FactionHeir's trait and ancillary fixes will be implemented. He will also take full responsibility of any issues regarding these files, however unlikely these may be after extensive testing.

Charter Amendment 6.3: Dukes may bestow the title of Count on Electors without avatars.

Charter Amendment 6.7: Any decision that would lead to the excommunication of the Reich has to be authorized by a Diet vote, requiring a 2/3 majority. In the event of a conflict, this Amendment supercedes Rule 3.3 and Charter Amendment 5.1.

Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 1: Amend 1.4 by adding: If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Chancellor can build what he likes. The Chancellor may upgrade a settlement at any time (ie upgrade the walls regardless of a build queue), unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the governor.
Clause 2: Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.

Charter Amendment 8.2: In addition to the Kaiser, an Emergency Session of the Diet may be called by the Prinz, or if three of the four House leaders (Dukes or Stewards) agree to do so.

Cecil XIX
05-28-2007, 01:39
I would like to ask permission to join this PBEM in the service of House Austria.

Northnovas
05-28-2007, 03:10
I would like to ask permission to join this PBEM in the service of House Austria.

Welcome Cecil XIX, you are free to join the Austrian House we do not have a free avatar at this time there has been a wait for some with the Austrian House members but you can still participate.
However, if you wish there are some other free avatars in other Houses. If you haven't read up on some of the House threads do so and get a feel for what is going on. If you still want to join the Austrian House you are most welcome and can participate by being an Elector and have your say in the Diet and House thread.
econ21 will get you official signed up with the House of your choice.

FactionHeir
05-28-2007, 03:13
I think Franconia still has an avatar overload.

OverKnight
05-28-2007, 08:17
@TC, if they're passed and legal, I don't see why we can't put them into the Rules, earlier ones are already in there. I guess it's up to econ though because he's the one who'd have to edit his own posts.

No one has taken Lothar (of the Hill People) yet, so in summarizing the edicts, I put him in as your avatar. If that changes, I'll edit.

econ21
05-28-2007, 10:12
I would like to ask permission to join this PBEM in the service of House Austria.

Welcome - I suggest you take one of the von Mahren sons; there is an amendment to make that family Austrian which should pass.

Pick either Erhart and Sigismund von Mahren; you can see them listed in the table in this post:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383081&postcount=1

and they should be in the library.

Tincow - I've updated the rules, but only the amendments in the last Diet were not already incorporated.

TinCow
05-28-2007, 16:05
Ok, I think I've got every last thing in the library up-to-date. Please let me know if you see anything that is wrong. At a minimum, check your own Biography and the House info posted in the Family Tree area. I am particularly concerned with making sure I've got all the Titles right.

FYI: I have completely eliminated the Military Rank info from the Bios since it is largely obsolete. If someone has been Knighted, they now simply have an extra title: Knight.

As far as I can tell, the following avatars are currently unassigned:
Helmut von Hamburg (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383675&postcount=8)
Jan von Hamburg (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1557407&postcount=21)
Harold von Dassel (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1557410&postcount=22)
Fritz von Kastilien (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1557411&postcount=23)
Ehrhart von Mahren (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1557413&postcount=24)
Péter von Kastilien (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1558068&postcount=26)
Sigismund von Mahren (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1558071&postcount=27)

We will also have 4 more males come of age in the next Chancellorship (Siegfried von Kastilien, Markus Steffen, Matthias Steffen, Wolfgang Hümmel) and we will have no less than 6 daughters of marriage age.

Odds are that the following avatars will die in the next Chancellorship due to age: Henry, Leopold, Otto von Kassel

This means that we will have, at a minimum, 11 available avatars by the end of the next Chancellorship and we will only have need of 3 new ones. That leaves 8 extras. As a result, I think now is a good time to start recruiting more players for KOTR. I don't like the idea of having so many extra avatars sitting around doing nothing.

Stig
05-28-2007, 16:08
I think Franconia still has an avatar overload.
Aye, and we seriously lack the people playing them. Especially if the Von Mahren family moves to Austria.

GeneralHankerchief
05-28-2007, 19:36
Ah, now this is what I've been missing. There's nothing more fun than a good old-fashioned argument in the Diet.

AussieGiant
05-28-2007, 20:36
I know...I'm finding it amusing that your both from Bavaria.

I want Otto to bring down the hammer on you two bickering in public :laugh4:

FactionHeir
05-28-2007, 20:40
I think someone (Otto?) needs to propose an edict that reads along the lines of "Gerhard Steffen is relieved of command for the duration of the chancellorship and to be confined within a church to ponder his state of mind"

AussieGiant
05-28-2007, 20:42
I think someone (Otto?) needs to propose an edict that reads along the lines of "Gerhard Steffen is relieved of command for the duration of the chancellorship and to be confined within a church to ponder his state of mind"


That would probably be for the best. But he has just been promoted to Steward. How's that going to work:laugh4:

GeneralHankerchief
05-28-2007, 20:43
Actually, I don't think the promotion takes effect until the Diet session concludes. So there's still time. :laugh4:

AussieGiant
05-28-2007, 20:48
Actually, I don't think the promotion takes effect until the Diet session concludes. So there's still time. :laugh4:

Niiice GH very good point there. He's certainly doing a good job with the role playing after letting that witch tak him out behind the shed and make mad donkey love to him :laugh4:

Stuperman
05-28-2007, 20:49
well, Gerhard's loyalty is too high for him to do anything reckless, but he is a bit bitter that with all that's happened to him. Defend the church after it seems to have abandoned him in his time of need? only if he was ordered to.

FactionHeir
05-28-2007, 20:52
Niiice GH very good point there. He's certainly doing a good job with the role playing after letting that witch tak him out behind the shed and make mad donkey love to him :laugh4:

Is that why Steffen's wife has not been getting pregnant ever since? Must have been a nasty STD Steffen caught on Ajaccio :bounce:

Stuperman
05-28-2007, 20:56
well, there is/was actually a story in the works where Gerhard and his bodyguard go after the witch, and she has some cryptic message about kolar...but with that storyline ended it has kinda floundered.

AussieGiant
05-28-2007, 20:56
well, Gerhard's loyalty is too high for him to do anything reckless, but he is a bit bitter that with all that's happened to him. Defend the church after it seems to have abandoned him in his time of need? only if he was ordered to.


I know that is why Arnold is trying to talk reason.

I'd put the mentoring you did with him at about the same time you were on the island. It was also why the Count of Venice offered to have you stay at a house of his in Rome...where I think we have a high enough church to cure some of those issues.

Anyway, I certainly congratulate you on not asking for anything to be changed because of some bad traits. It's good for everyone to see the benefits.

FactionHeir
05-28-2007, 21:03
That story could still fit considering econ put Kolar up to the Danes. Maybe she had a warning about the future excomm? Stories are always good :)

Stuperman
05-28-2007, 21:04
yeah, I think Bavaria is gonna have a few man power issues in the near term, Otto is old, Conrad is needed in the East, the BHA is commanded by a guy who has 0 command stars and Lothar is not yet knighted.

I hope there's not much military action this next session (which seems unlikely) as from what FH said I'm gonna need to stay in the same region for a very long time to have some of these traits fixed (4 minimum to get rid of blighted IIRC).

FactionHeir
05-28-2007, 21:11
Mechanics:
Same region and in the best case ending in town with 100% movement remaining on turn 3+ (so you can move around freely inside the region on turn 1 and 2, 3rd you should end in settlement with less than 100%, 4th no movement) You don't have to though. You can still move around thereafter as long as you stay in the region (so the counter does not reset). You only have a chance for cure if you end in settlement with full moves though (after turn 3)

From what I see in terms of edicts, only Austria and Franconia seem interested in attacking (Franconia more so). Bavaria and Swabia did not propose any aggressive edicts.

Stuperman
05-28-2007, 21:21
Does going on crusade have any 'healing' effects?

FactionHeir
05-28-2007, 21:27
Nope, not on witch curses anyway. On some other worldly vices, yes.

Stuperman
05-28-2007, 21:35
Mechanics:
Same region and in the best case ending in town with 100% movement remaining on turn 3+ (so you can move around freely inside the region on turn 1 and 2, 3rd you should end in settlement with less than 100%, 4th no movement) You don't have to though. You can still move around thereafter as long as you stay in the region (so the counter does not reset). You only have a chance for cure if you end in settlement with full moves though (after turn 3)

From what I see in terms of edicts, only Austria and Franconia seem interested in attacking (Franconia more so). Bavaria and Swabia did not propose any aggressive edicts.


.....sounds like Lothar needs to be knighted ASAP.

Cecil XIX
05-28-2007, 21:52
Welcome - I suggest you take one of the von Mahren sons; there is an amendment to make that family Austrian which should pass.

Thank you. After careful consideration, I would like Sigismund to be my avatar.

FactionHeir
05-28-2007, 21:55
Talk to your new Duke and jump right into the running diet session then :)
Oh, reading what has gone on there and in the house thread might be useful before you do.

StoneCold
05-28-2007, 22:39
Stig, the storyline stuff are not suppose to be known to the general public, so you can't used that in the Diet. And also Warluster killed the wrong prince anyway resulting in the story not really logical.

StoneCold
05-28-2007, 22:42
Btw, just a question about the mechanics of the game. I thought the sons will spawn in a town near their father's location once they come of age, why are the franconian avatars all the way down in Italy. Or is this no longer the case for M2TW?

FactionHeir
05-28-2007, 22:52
Normally children spawn in the father's stack or in the town of the region he is in. If the father is dead, they tend to spawn at the capital. That mechanics is going a bit wacko in M2TW between patches.
And I still think you ought to really join this PBM :D

GeneralHankerchief
05-28-2007, 23:13
I swear, TinCow, you have got to stop switching sides on me. First, Heinrich loses an ally in Mandorf, and now when Conrad thinks he's going to get some support, old Max dies and is reincarnated in the form of his opponent's son. :wall:

FactionHeir
05-28-2007, 23:26
Haha, GH is doomed to getting backstabbed :)
I think TC's new avatar RP is like Mandorf in his younger days? Seems quite impulsive to me. Strong language no less and crude humor. Except his avatar does not have the Lewd/Feck/Rabblerouser traits. Well, not yet.

TinCow
05-28-2007, 23:27
ROFL, sorry. It's not personal. Lothar is 16, he's got a Mentor AND a Tutor, plus Chivalrous Father and Proper Morals. Seems like a kid who's grown up as a spoiled brat with a silver spoon up his butt. Add on Deep Pockets, Born Conqueror, and more command stars than most people end their lives with, and you've got the perfect recipe for a kid who hates schooling, loves swords and just wants to fight anything and everything. Now if only I could get him a drinking trait... The brothel line will have to be a priority in my province.

One of these days I'm going to get my hands on an avatar with an insanity trait. THAT will be fun.

Don't worry about him going Mandorf. I don't expect a religious awakening of any kind.

GeneralHankerchief
05-28-2007, 23:30
Actually, he sounds a lot like a young Heinrich. :hide:

FactionHeir
05-28-2007, 23:30
Well, for Drink just end in a town with brothel or higher. Or camp at near full MP in the wilderness. Sadly, Insane and Deranged can not be gotten post coming of age except by suffering a lot of assassination attempts... hm....that might actually be an avenue for more triggers....

FactionHeir
05-28-2007, 23:53
Btw TC:

On the word "hi" from etymology

greeting, 1862, Amer.Eng. (first recorded reference is to speech of a Kansas Indian), originally to attract attention, probably a variant of M.E. hy, hey (c.1475) also an exclamation to call attention. Extended form hiya attested from 1940.


I just found it kind of odd when you closed in the diet with the sentence "Hi, dad"

gibsonsg91921
05-29-2007, 01:51
hey

my character is maximillian von tyrolia, a merchant, right now, but i just installed patch 1.2. is there a general avatar that i can get, preferably in austria? if theres none in austria now but there's some coming soon i can wait and get one. if theres none coming soon at all in austria im not picky, ill take one from anywhere.

do i need a mod?

TinCow
05-29-2007, 03:41
Btw TC:

On the word "hi" from etymology

greeting, 1862, Amer.Eng. (first recorded reference is to speech of a Kansas Indian), originally to attract attention, probably a variant of M.E. hy, hey (c.1475) also an exclamation to call attention. Extended form hiya attested from 1940.


I just found it kind of odd when you closed in the diet with the sentence "Hi, dad"

I'm not trying to mimic early Middle Ages Germanic language, nor have I seen anyone else attempt to do so in any serious manner. Mentally translate "Hi" into whatever would be appropriate for the time period. Yes, it is odd, but that was the point. I thought I knew everything when I was 16, even though I was an ignoramus. Lothar struck me the same way, and I wanted to end the post with a reminder of just how much of a child he is. I simply can't see a 16 year old who needs a full time Mentor and Tutor spewing out some immense dissertation on global pan-religious politics. I'm going to do my best with Lothar to NOT argue like a lawyer in the Diet, since I know that pervades my posts even when I do not intend it to. If I could revise it, I would change it to "Hi Father" or perhaps "Greetings Father" if you prefer a different word.

AussieGiant
05-29-2007, 08:45
Fantastic TC. Otto's gotta be wondering what the hell is going to happen to Bavaria once he's gone!!!:laugh4:

OverKnight
05-29-2007, 09:26
If you've read the latest in the Bavaria thread, Otto is wondering just that.

Of course once he shuffles off that mortal coil, I'll be part of Bavaria's callow youth movement. This all depends, however, on my next avatar's attributes.

Though with Otto, I've got so many now, it's hard to keep track. I've sacrificed some accuracy for consistency in the character.

econ21
05-29-2007, 09:51
is there a general avatar that i can get, preferably in austria?

Yes, no problem - you can have Erhart von Mahren:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1557413&postcount=24


do i need a mod?

Just factionheir's traits files - check out the first post in this thread.

Ituralde
05-29-2007, 11:17
Yes gibson, go ahead, we need to get those von Mahrens assigned.

Also a warm welcome to Cecil XIX, you chose wisely to join the glorious House of Austria! :2thumbsup:

econ21
05-29-2007, 11:37
I've updated the playlist table to the best of my ability:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383081&postcount=1

Please let me know if you spot any errors, as I will be using the influence in that table to weight tomorrow's votes.

I will be moving Pharnakes to the inactive player list and freeing up Elberhard unless he votes tomorrow.

FactionHeir
05-29-2007, 12:13
Btw, that reminds me. Does the emperor only control princess marriages or also other marriages? So I know if I need to ask before accepting offers during the term (if noone stands against me that is...)
And shouldn't Warluster get +4 Inf? (2 from traits, 1 from count, 1 from prince)

[edit]
Oh, and TC, that quote was meant to be light hearted, not dead serious.

econ21
05-29-2007, 12:45
Does the emperor only control princess marriages or also other marriages?

Just princess marriages.


And shouldn't Warluster get +4 Inf? (2 from traits, 1 from count, 1 from prince.

I think that's what I've given him.

FactionHeir
05-29-2007, 12:55
:gah2: I keep mixing up Ignoramus and Warluster for some reason and can't seem to read today. Sorry

So who has the say on normal marriages? The parties involved or only the chancellor?

econ21
05-29-2007, 13:05
Basically, the way I see it, the Chancellor decides everything unless there are exceptions in the rules and imperatives in the edicts. That said, players are free to PM the Chancellor with ideas and instructions - nine times out of ten, I suspect the Chancellor would be happy to oblige. But players can't expect the Chancellor to stop play and consult them - they have to be proactive.

FactionHeir
05-29-2007, 13:11
Alright, cheers for the info ~:)

econ21
05-29-2007, 13:14
So that the next Chancellor can hit the ground running, governors should now post build queues for their settlements and Dukes provide standing orders for their household armies. If they aren't posted by the close of voting, the Chancellor will have a free hand...

Ituralde
05-29-2007, 13:19
@econ21:

Arnold is now Count of Budapest. There currently is no Count of Venice.

gibsonsg91921
05-29-2007, 13:29
sweet thx

but wouldnt that mod only really affect the chancellor? or can i not play if we're not on the same mod?

FactionHeir
05-29-2007, 13:45
When you play battles, the mod is important too so the correct trait effects are applied and you get the proper traits postbattle. Also sometimes you fight battles during the AI turn, and then the mod is even more important.

AussieGiant
05-29-2007, 13:46
Hi Econ,

How are you determining the position in the family tree for Austria?

Is marriage stronger than blood in this instance?

FactionHeir
05-29-2007, 13:51
Position in family tree is as in the library. Counting from left to right.

Btw, what's this thing about prince of antioch? I know that is Hümmel, but I don't understand the reaction of the diet to the latest report I just read?

Ituralde
05-29-2007, 14:03
It affects all Trait triggers. While it is most important for the Chancellor, if you fight battles and those battles would trigger Traits, this would not happen if you didn't have the mod installed. This could become extremely fatal, if a new turn started after your battle. Then it could also change the core game.
But why am I even writing this, FactionHeir can explain this ten times better!
Edit: And faster it seems...


I am really looking forward to the moment when Arnold will ascend to Duke of Austria. Will be interesting to see what will become of my precious Duchy. :sweatdrop:

OverKnight
05-29-2007, 14:09
Btw, what's this thing about prince of antioch? I know that is Hümmel, but I don't understand the reaction of the diet to the latest report I just read?

Kaiser Henry granted Ulrich the title for his bravery in the Battle of Antioch. It's part of the battle report near the end.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1547203&postcount=69

I don't think it was mentioned in the Chancellor's report. I assume it is an honorific, much as Otto's title as King. There are no lands attached to either yet. That would change for Otto if CA 9.1 passes, and judging by CA 9.5 I envision that Ulrich seeks to have his position made official as well with Adana thrown into the mix.

AussieGiant
05-29-2007, 14:12
I am really looking forward to the moment when Arnold will ascend to Duke of Austria. Will be interesting to see what will become of my precious Duchy. :sweatdrop:


Come on dad!! It'll be fine!! Unless Lothar distracts me with beer and women I'll take all that pent up dread and unleash it on the eastern kingdoms.

FactionHeir
05-29-2007, 14:35
Ahhh thanks for the tip OK I didn't see his post in the diet.

Stig
05-29-2007, 15:45
I do think Austria is getting a bit overcrowded when it gets it's 3 new electors. Compare it to Franconia, which only has 3, 1 of which is on Crusade.

I'd say everyone who signs up should sign up for a character instead of for a duchy. It's more important to fill the slots.

FactionHeir
05-29-2007, 15:57
Considering that Austria is the main force for expansion eastwards (although Franconia has been doing that so far mainly) and most of the world we can expand towards is in the east, you'd expect people to want to sign up for Austria :p

FactionHeir
05-29-2007, 22:26
I just had a look at the save and noticed something that also was the second piece of the puzzle I needed to confirm the exact origin of a hardcode trait bug. For details, check my latest post in the buglist.

As for what this means for this PBM, Peter von Kastilien came of age with a total negative piety that the game hardcode couldn't understand during creation and made it an overall positive permanently by giving +2 piety. As such, we can currently see the avatar with total 2 piety, which should be 0 (he does have ReligionStarter L1 and the tutor ancillary giving +4 piety total)
Now, since the hardcode gave him a permanent boost, we cannot remove it in any simple way. I can however recode a currently unused trait to subtract 2 piety as long as the trait is carried (which for him should be as long as he lives). Any objections?

TinCow
05-29-2007, 22:32
Does he have the default 3 piety that all avatars should get on spawn? We had a period of time when new avatars did not receive this default level of piety (see Gerhard Steffen). If Peter von Kastilien does not have the default 3 piety, I say leave him be.

FactionHeir
05-29-2007, 23:00
He does have the default piety. The only 2 who don't at the moment are Steffen and Günther I think.

[edit]
TC, I almost thought Günther had lost his somehow, but it seems the last few screens you took of him (since 1180) lack two traits: IndecisiveAttacker and PublicAtheism. In 1220 he has 1 level in either. Before 1220 he had 2 levels in the former and 1 in the latter.

Northnovas
05-30-2007, 02:27
I do think Austria is getting a bit overcrowded when it gets it's 3 new electors. Compare it to Franconia, which only has 3, 1 of which is on Crusade.

There is a bit of irony in that statement and I was wondering if it would ever be true with 4 Electors and 1 Avatar since the start. I am sure the house and avatar will balance out. I would think any new player would want an avatar to play and not be concern about the House. However, the House of Austria does rock!

TinCow
05-30-2007, 03:22
I am personally very pleased to see Austria as the new 'in' House. All the others have had their turn as the House of the moment and it's nice that Austria finally has the avatars to be able to reward their extremely patient players.

econ21
05-30-2007, 11:39
I have a dumb question about Edict 9.3: if we reinforce an AI faction in a land battle, do we get to fight the battle manually or is it an autoresolve? This is a technical question about how M2TW works, not a question about what we would choose if given the choice.

I'll vote yes to the Edict on the assumption that we get the chance to fight manually; if it is autoresolve, I'll change my vote to no as I don't trust the autoresolve with our precious avatars.

BTW: on Edict 9.4, we have a spy right outside Stockholm (I wanted to see what kind of son wants to kill his own father). If the edict passes, someone could write a spy story straight away.

StoneCold
05-30-2007, 11:59
I think it is still we are fighting it maually, but that is from RTW in the intro battle, with Juli reinforcing the Senate army. I think I fought one or two in SP campaign too. But no experience in M2TW.

TinCow
05-30-2007, 12:07
It is a manual battle. It's easiest to achieve by finding an allied army in enemy territory and ending your turn next to that army or a target you think that army will attack (riskier ending it away form the allied army, as you might get attacked instead without reinforcement). Another option is to sit next to an enemy army that is besieging an allied town (be adjacent to the town too). That way you become reinforcements to the ally on both a siege assault and a sally. I'm not sure if you get a reputation improvement if you start the battle to relieve a siege of an allied town, but for the purposes of that edict (which I wrote) I would say that would also qualify, even if it didn't result in a reputation improvement.

Ideally, I'd like to see this become a common thing for the Reich. Sending armies out to help our allies in their wars is a good way to have interesting battles, get generals traits, and induce roleplaying without further expanding the Empire.

AussieGiant
05-30-2007, 12:09
I whole heartedly agree TC

StoneCold
05-30-2007, 12:18
btw, should you guys be trying to get a Military access in order to help the ally? So as not to worsen relationship while helping them?

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 12:29
StoneCold has a point there. But with our reputation at some ~ -0.3, that will be quite difficult.
And we get to fight the battle whether it is captain-led or general-led, but according to our charter, we only fight it if it is general-led

Stig
05-30-2007, 13:15
Which is one of the reasons I voted against it. Not only do I think our own wars are far more important, I also think it's more or less impossible. What we can do is try to get an MA with our best ally and hope he has someone to fight.

If the Edict gets through tho I'll be first to volunteer for the job :charge:

TinCow
05-30-2007, 13:18
Military access is a boon, but it depends entirely on the circumstances. We don't need military access to help allied armies in enemy territory, such as the English army near Antwerp. Of course, military access with our allies should be a priority and it is actually achievable with 1.2. Aiding an ally in battle is actually easiest at sea. Just keep a ship or two next to an allied fleet near enemy waters.

Obviously it is still an autoresolve if it is a captain led army, but I can't imagine we'll have a lack of volunteers to lead any army.

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 13:20
Get yourself knighted and I'll send you somewhere ;)

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 13:30
Oh, btw. I just uploaded version 1.25 of KOTRfix:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix125.rar

Please update if you intend to fight battles/take screens :yes:

Stuperman
05-30-2007, 13:36
Hey Hey the org is back!

I couldn't get to it most of yesterday, going to vote now.

StoneCold
05-30-2007, 13:49
FH, I think Stig's avatar is knighted already at the multiple battle outside Krakow.

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 13:59
I know, I was referring to TC's avatar ;)

StoneCold
05-30-2007, 15:03
hhahah, ok. Btw, is there a list of the avatars joining the crusade somewhere out there?

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 15:08
Not that I can see. Might be a good idea for people to post that.

Btw OK you need to appoint counts for the various settlements in Outremer still and those do the build queues, no?

Also, I'm going to hope OK does not end up being besieged by Mongols within Aleppo.

Stuperman
05-30-2007, 15:12
as steward I believe those are my duties, no?

build ques will be up tonight (8-10 hours) and there's not many people in Bavaria to name count....Sailler is count of Nurmeburg...lothar isn't knighted yet, Gerhard is steward, and Otto is king of outremer.

OverKnight
05-30-2007, 15:13
Avatars are thin on the ground in Outremer at the moment.

I can't appoint the Kaiser to a position, Elberhard is currently quasi-unassigned, the possible Crusaders near Ragusa haven't left Europe yet (can't assign counties to avatars in Europe), I don't know if Hans is returning, and I offered Acre to Hummel, but he never wrote back and instead proposed his own legislation.

I'd love to assign the counties, but I currently have no candidates. I will fill the ranks once the new Crusade has hit Outremer.

Edit: Not to be cowardly, but I'd rather face mongols behind walls than in a flat desert landscape. Aleppo is a Citadel, it would be an interesting battle if they tried to take it. Remember, Otto is a night fighter he can cut the odds down a bit.

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 15:25
Thanks for the info OK, was just wondering.

Stuperman: was worried about the queues in Outremer, not Bavaria. You can take your time with those till say 9 hours after elections close. Won't get to play till then anyway since I'll be in a meeting before that. So basically 8pm UK time tomorrow.

Stuperman
05-30-2007, 15:45
OOPS! sorry, I mis-read your post.

econ21
05-30-2007, 17:13
On the crusade, I asked for volunteers towards the end of Henry's period in office and the following people stepped forward: Conrad Salier, Duke Leopold and Fredericus von Hamburg. So they should definitely go. I am not sure about AussieGiant, but his avatar is in the right place if he wants to crusade. Other interested players should declare asap - we are racing the Mongols to Damascus, AFAIK, and the main stack should not hang around.

There is also a gaggle of non-player avatars around Zagreb that I brought to be available in the east. It might be good to bring at least a couple as Otto and Henry will be gone soon, and Leopold is no spring chicken either.

I planned to launch the crusade within Zagreb province, as then we will get the option of recruiting crusader sergeants. Given the number of avatars and troops, it might be worth considering two separate crusading stacks. But Austria (esp. Budapest & Ragusa) also needs defending and its army is stuck far from home besieging Thessalonica.

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 17:35
Unless Pharnakes comes forward you'll be taking Elberhard then? Or Dassel?

So best would be to take along a spare Bavarian avatar and a spare Austrian one, yes?

TinCow
05-30-2007, 17:44
Unless the Crusade delays departure for several turns, there are no Bavarian avatars to spare. Not that big a deal though, since Conrad is still pretty young.

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 17:49
If Leopold's edict passes, I'll be sending it off right away and have the second stack follow with at most 1 turn delay. Actually I'll have to check on how many ships we got or the second stack will end up having to walk the landroute for a long while. Might even have to have a crusade with mainly generals and a few infantry if not enough ships are there.

I figure Austria will have to leave 2 or so knighted avatars behind to defend its borders against Hungary, or take Sofia. Are you going on crusade TC?

econ21
05-30-2007, 17:59
Unless Pharnakes comes forward you'll be taking Elberhard then? Or Dassel?

I am not sure. Dassel is too old and role-playing the lewd Elberhard may jeopardise my moderator position. :laugh4: I had been thinking about taking a Franconian avatar - that House seems the most stretched currently, but I'll see how things look when Henry dies.


So best would be to take along a spare Bavarian avatar and a spare Austrian one, yes?

Maybe a young von Hamburg and a young von Mahren?

TinCow
05-30-2007, 18:06
As much as I would love to write a battle report where I get destroyed by the Mongols in an open field assault, Lothar is staying at home.

econ21:
The von Hamburgs are Franconia.

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 18:11
And I thought Lothar wanted to fight something - not like I'd send you in alone. A few peasants would of course follow :laugh4:

But really. I don't think I'd send any small stack against a mongol horde. More like vast field battles if anything. Probably also going to train some assassins as backup (i.e. hiring hashashins)

econ21
05-30-2007, 18:18
econ21:
The von Hamburgs are Franconia.

I know, I was making a counter-proposal, Franconia instead of Bavaria. Franconia has a lot of spare avatars and without one of his sons to accompany him, FLYdude would be the only Franconian in Outremer.

Stig
05-30-2007, 18:20
Well, we should get more played Franconians in Franconia itself first imo. There are only 2 there now.

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 18:26
Franconia has a lot of spare avatars though, so I guess it depends on the Franconian duke to direct how many Franconians he wants to allow to partake in the crusade.

Kagemusha
05-30-2007, 18:30
How many nobles do we already have in levant or about to embark there? I dont think we should have too many so there would be an real threat of disaster there when the Mongols attack. I think that we need a anti crusade party in this game.~;)

Stuperman
05-30-2007, 18:31
like say perhaps a 0 piety, witch scarred Gerhard Steffen ?

Kagemusha
05-30-2007, 18:33
Yep.There should be also some slight changes on Jonas Von Mahrens character.Soon you guys will find out,when few stories will be released in the stories thread.:smash:

Stig
05-30-2007, 18:41
I think that we need a anti crusade party in this game.
I'd gladly volunteer ~D , as I've been banging about how more important the Heimat is.

Kagemusha
05-30-2007, 18:43
I'd gladly volunteer ~D , as I've been banging about how more important the Heimat is.

I think we can work on something inside character.:smash:

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 18:47
Maybe I ought to send Stig's avatar on a tour around the empire to build watchtowers so he can enjoy looking at all corners of the Heimat :laugh4:

Stig
05-30-2007, 18:50
Maybe I ought to send Stig's avatar on a tour around the empire to build watchtowers so he can enjoy looking at all corners of the Heimat :laugh4:
Aslong as you retake my city :whip:

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 18:54
I could be mean and say "meh, there is no edict for it and I could take it back on the last turn because you didn't believe I was able to take it back", but I (probably) won't ;)

TinCow
05-30-2007, 19:06
The Franconians could just order their Household Army to take it. I think it would still be technically legal for you to stall on that, but they would score points against you in the Diet if you did so.

StoneCold
05-30-2007, 19:08
Probably not a good idea given how advance Thorn is. The Russians might be churning out some super troops from there if you wait too long given the $$ we are pumping into the AI economy. :P Also the lack of a major fortress in the East Franconia will hurt resupply of new troops...

OverKnight
05-30-2007, 19:08
@TC and FH: Let's burn that bridge when we get to it. :laugh4:

(Yes, I'm intentionally mixing metaphors.)

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 19:10
Technically I could send the FHA to take it on turn 9, since there is no timespan in which you have to fulfill HA orders, but since its one of my own stated goals I'll probably send stuff there by turn 2.
Was just an OOC joke anyway.

[edit]
I don't quite understand what you mean OK A week of mindless data entry has numbed my senses

StoneCold
05-30-2007, 19:11
ahhah, and about the French fortress you bavarians guys are talking about, that would be a good base to help out the Portuguese from.

Stig
05-30-2007, 19:11
Also the lack of a major fortress in the East Franconia will hurt resupply of new troops...
Hence why I was count there, but the Russians attacked when I was out of town

StoneCold
05-30-2007, 19:14
But Stig, without being knighted you cannot fight the battle yourself, it will still be autoresolved as stated in the rules. Your Avatar would probably just have died there given how that battle turn out.

Stig
05-30-2007, 19:15
Well no, as the battle was about even. The appearance of a 2 star general would have turned it in our favour.

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 19:16
Wouldn't have been too bad, Franconia has spare avatars heh.

Stig
05-30-2007, 19:17
Wouldn't have been too bad, Franconia has spare avatars heh.
heheh ~D

TinCow
05-30-2007, 19:25
But Stig, without being knighted you cannot fight the battle yourself, it will still be autoresolved as stated in the rules. Your Avatar would probably just have died there given how that battle turn out.

Actually, the rules don't specifically state that. You have to be a Knight before you can be an Army Commander, but you only need to be an Army Commander if your army is 7 units or more. This means that even non-knighted avatars can lead armies that are 6 units or less. I would also argue that in the case of a non-knighted avatar being attacked while in a town, the units in the town are a garrison, not an army, and as such the 7 unit limit wouldn't apply. Even if people didn't agree with this interpretation, I can't imagine there would be much opposition in the Diet to allowing a guy to defend himself when he's the only avatar in the battle.

Ituralde
05-30-2007, 19:42
Just a quick note that the coop story between Leopold and von Mahren is up! The placeholder has been filled.

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 19:47
2.6 Battles are only fought manually when commanded by a player controlled general who is an army commander. They are autoresolved in all other cases (e.g. captain-led armies).

Considering we lost the title Army commander, this would either read knight or be open to interpretation.

Stig
05-30-2007, 19:48
That's a bug in the rules really, as this army wouldn't have been captain led.
Still I think the fact that a 2 star general was there would have tipped the balance.

TinCow
05-30-2007, 19:49
Sounds like we need another housekeeping amendment to clean that up next time. The original military scheme we planned for KOTR has been so butchered and ignored, it would be good to simply rewrite it.

Stuperman
05-30-2007, 20:24
I'd go for that, the Charter is starting to look a little hacked up as it is, re-doing a some of it would be a good Idea.

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 20:25
Kagemusha: Are you saying you want to abandon the siege of Thessalonica and leave it in Venetian hands?!

Kagemusha
05-30-2007, 20:27
Kagemusha: Are you saying you want to abandon the siege of Thessalonica and leave it in Venetian hands?!

Yes.And i have Ituralde´s blessing for that.:yes:

FactionHeir
05-30-2007, 20:41
Ok :fainting:
Guess you guys will get quite a few battles near Ragusa in that case then. I should also note that there is a large Hungarian army near Zagreb. If you got any specific orders for that let me know.

Looking at the election, unless someone pms econ to change their votes, please send me a PM if you want your own specific avatar to do something during the next term, like go on strike or something like that. Otherwise you'll be freely moved around. Also, if you got any specific story planned that needs you to be somewhere at a certain point, let me know.

I think I'll have to print all those queues and orders out tomorrow so I don't lose track :sweatdrop:

TinCow
05-30-2007, 20:43
Yeah, I found it very useful to print out the Build Queues, Household Army orders, and all the passed Edicts. It's a pain to have to pull up the Org to check something when you're in-game.

Stuperman
05-30-2007, 21:31
Gerhard, Lothar and the BHA can take care of the Hungarians if need be....

I'll post build ques, and orders, and offer the BHA's services to Austira IC when I get home, although I'm on dial up out there so it might be slow going.

edit: someone else might need to Knight lothar, as with more command stars than his father he'll automatically be in command, although that was the case for Conrad Sailler too.....

OverKnight
05-30-2007, 21:39
A possible solution is to have Lothar come in as a reinforcement. Detach him from the army before you move to attack, move main army into enemy ZOC, move Lothar into ZOC, and then have Gerhard attack. Gerhard commands, Lothar participates (retainers are cav so he can still get in the mix from the border) and everyone's happy.

Stuperman
05-31-2007, 00:54
that's a good Idea OK.

Also as I look over the save, does Fritz Von Kastilien(sp) have command of the BHA, and if so why?

not that it's a big deal, just something I noticed.

TevashSzat
05-31-2007, 01:38
Just to let you guys know, I haven't been that active recently and won't be more for another two weeks due to a hectic end of the school year. Expect me to be more active after June 15th

gibsonsg91921
05-31-2007, 01:44
who do i tell where i want my general character? cuz i want Ehrhart von Mahren in Ragusa to join the avatar party

Stuperman
05-31-2007, 02:23
faction Hier looks like the next chancellor so pm him.

gibsonsg91921
05-31-2007, 02:55
cool thx

StoneCold
05-31-2007, 02:59
Xdeathfire, I don't think your orders for the SHA is legal. The house army can only take one province by the house order. So unless the Chancellor wants to conquer France or there is a Diet edit, that order is illegal.

gibsonsg91921
05-31-2007, 03:47
yo dudes

i just realized that we say "kaiser" henry, "prinz" jobst, but we say "king" otto and stuff. king in german is "konig"

FactionHeir
05-31-2007, 11:25
gibson: True, but that's for everyone to choose themselves. I for one just use the English ones as typing the German titles compels me to type the entire story in German too.
Btw, here you got a present of 2 . to make it König :D

StoneCold: Hmm looks you are right. But then only Paris is really mentioned, so the SHA could roam French territory for targets of opportunity (and lay siege to stuff as long as it does not get captured, or intentionally captured?)


Change in plans: Please get all orders/builds in within 3 hours of this post. Meeting was cancelled :embarassed:

StoneCold
05-31-2007, 15:00
FH, think you really only need to capture Paris to fulfilled your part of the bargain, the house army are meant more as a defensive army from what I understand. This means that while it is roaming in France the entire western front is exposed and you need a secondary force to secure it. But maybe capturing Paris will force the french to try and recapture it.

btw, Ituralde, you Austrian house post is not making sense. Two capable commanders against our allies? :P

Stuperman
05-31-2007, 15:08
so, I take it that the Austrians have accepted Gerhards offer?

I'll update the BHA orders if I can get this confirmed.

Using arnold and lothar as re-enforcements/get them knighted...should be a good one.

Ituralde
05-31-2007, 15:45
It will be up to AussieGiant to confirm this to you.
He'll probably accept.

@StoneCold

Tanks mate.. probably a Freudian mistype there, hehe! :sweatdrop:

OverKnight
05-31-2007, 19:05
@TC, interesting story, very illuminating. :wink:

FactionHeir
05-31-2007, 19:26
I have just finished the first part of the 1220 chancellor report.
I have yet to find a good style, so I'm open to suggestions. Also, if there is anything else you would have liked to see let me know (i.e. the other spy pictures)

Right now I'm waiting for Xdeathfire to download the save and fight the battle. Then I'll likely end turn unless something crops up.

Stuperman
05-31-2007, 19:29
@FH

why does a non Bavarian have command of the BHA?

Stig
05-31-2007, 19:35
@FH

why does a non Bavarian have command of the BHA?
Because even my little brother is better than the best Bavarian general? :bounce:

Stuperman
05-31-2007, 19:38
Because even my little brother is better than the best Bavarian general? :bounce:

Otto?

FactionHeir
05-31-2007, 19:40
Because there is no Bavarian avatar save yourself in Europe who is allowed to lead an army and the only orders you gave for the BHA is to have it stationed in Milan.
Fritz is not leading the army per se. He only leads thee garrison of Florence at the moment where the BHA is resting.

OverKnight
05-31-2007, 20:07
Gerhard is fully capable of leading the BHA, in extremis command could be given to Lothar, father ill and such.

Stuperman, do you want to stay in Rome and get healed or do you want to lead the BHA?

I'm not sure why a Kastilien is in the same stack as the BHA, probably because he spawned in Rome.

Stuperman
05-31-2007, 20:13
Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear on my orders, when I said Garrisoned in milan I had assumed that Gerhard would be comming along. There's an abby in Milan and figured it was a relitively central place for Gerhard to heal. BUT don't worry about it at all, any military expiditions won't be for a few years at least, the whole region has paved roads so catching up won't be a problem, and then only if Austria wants/needs it.

TinCow
05-31-2007, 20:18
Lothar will be extremely pleased with whoever can get him knighted fastest.

StoneCold
05-31-2007, 20:29
FH, are you trying to get Henry to be a dread Kaiser? That's a lot of spying action you are doing there. :P

GeneralHankerchief
05-31-2007, 22:01
I'm having a hard time seeing these young whippersnappers in 40 years when they're the elder statesmen of the Diet.

FactionHeir
05-31-2007, 22:09
TC, if you want I can sent you towards Zagreb as well so Jonas can pick you up with the rest of the crew.

StoneCold: Spying is essential, for infiltration at least. And of course for armies that are close to our borders so we know what we are up against. Not like I go around spying on rebel captains :p

Stuperman: Reason I thought you wanted to stay in Rome was because there is a cathedral there and you were there since a turn or two already, speeding up your recovery as opposed to going to Milan which would start it all over. Your choice where you want to be stationed though.

[edit]
Nice story econ :)

StoneCold
05-31-2007, 23:11
GH, same here. But I think TC is probably going to come out with a story about his first battle and kill, and with it turns sober, or at least more mature.... :P

FactionHeir
05-31-2007, 23:13
That is, if he survives. <insert evil grin here>

StoneCold
05-31-2007, 23:18
btw, good story econ. Would like to see you reborn as your swearing lewd son... More good *#@&ing stories to come from him... hahah...

econ21
05-31-2007, 23:21
I don't know what the Bavarians have planned for their army, but I think Gerherd Steffen could afford some time off in Rome to get cured. The army can be led by a unknighted avatar, as long as it avoids battles.

GeneralHankerchief
05-31-2007, 23:21
Hmm, my preferred symbol order for swearing is *#%! It just seems so... right. :laugh4:

FactionHeir
05-31-2007, 23:26
Well, you could just write <censored> instead :p

TinCow
05-31-2007, 23:35
I don't know what the Bavarians have planned for their army, but I think Gerherd Steffen could afford some time off in Rome to get cured. The army can be led by a unknighted avatar, as long as it avoids battles.

Avoiding battle isn't in Lothar's nature at the moment. It would probably be best to give him command of the BHA only after he is knighted, unless you want another legal crisis in the Diet.

OverKnight
06-01-2007, 01:10
Judging by the Hungarian army near Zagreb, the Austrians might need the Bavarians sooner than we thought.


I'm having a hard time seeing these young whippersnappers in 40 years when they're the elder statesmen of the Diet.

Suffering breeds character. I'm sure TC has something up his sleave for Lothar.

Hell, I never imagined Otto would be an elder statesman. But somewhere in the middle of all the social climbing, prisoner executions, subversion of the charter and thumb taking, it happened.

GeneralHankerchief
06-01-2007, 01:35
Hell, I never imagined Otto would be an elder statesman. But somewhere in the middle of all the social climbing, prisoner executions, subversion of the charter and thumb taking, it happened.

Heh, yeah, but check out our introduction to Otto:


"Kaiser Heinrich, Prinz Henry and the Electors of the Reich, greetings from Innsbruck. I apologize that I was unable to attend the Diet this year, but my many duties as Castellan have kept me here. There is always something to repair, patrols to be made or some dispute between peasants to sort out. If I have to rule on another case about disputed pig ownership I fear I shall go mad. My patrols in the Brenner pass have been more fruitful. Our border with Venice seems quiet for now, but I have scouted several excellent locations for ambushes if they dare to march against us.

I have heard from the Kaiser that I am to go on Campaign! This is good news, I would much rather be on horseback than sitting behind walls. Innsbruck will need to be looked after however. I have asked Elector Gunther to keep things in order in my absence. I've already invited his wife Bertha and their children to the castle, so that they may be reunited when he returns. She says it has been too long since she has seen her husband and that there are several matters they must discuss. She is a formidable woman. Some wars are waged on the battlefield and others in the bedroom, good luck elector!"

The elector looks extremely uncomfortable reading that last part, but it seems he was instructed to. He continues reading:

"Preparations for the upcoming campaign continue in earnest. I hope the next time I write it will be from the field. I also hope you keep myself, and the elector, particularly the elector, in your prayers. Glory to the Kaiser! Glory to the Reich!

Otto von Kassel"

And then check out our introductions to Lothar and Elberhard:


*A teenager with a surprisingly bushy mustache stands, looking bored.*

After all the lecturing I have received from Godwine and Gottfried, my mentor and tutor... or is it Gottfried and Godwine? Hells, they're bloody identical except for those ridiculous hats...

*Lothar turns to a nearby servant.*

Tell Gottfried he must shave his beard immediately.

*The servant bows and turns to go.*

Wait! I'm not sure whether Gottfried is my mentor or my tutor, so that won't help at all. *Lothar scratches his head for a moment.* Nevermind, I shall deal with this later.

*Lothar sits down, seeming pleased with himself. It takes him a moment to realize the entire Diet is silent and looking at him.*

OH! Right, yes... the Imperial Diet... *Lothar gives a short chuckle. No one else seems amused. He rolls his eyes.* (By the hells this place is full stodgy old bastards. It's a wonder that half of them don't drop dead of sheer boredom every morning.)

POLITICS! DIPLOMACY! Yes, this is the wise and venerable council of the Holy Roman Empire. Let us discuss treaties and religion, certainly the watchwords of a successful life. Prinz Jobst may have violated Imperial law by his actions, but what damage has it really caused us? Excommunication? HAH! That didn't last bloody long at all! Poor relationships with our fellow Catholics? Half of them are at war with us already! Those who are not at war with us refrain from taking up arms simply because they know we would crush them. *Lothar slams his fist on a table and grins broadly.*

I forget most of what Godfriend and Gottwine (Gottfried and Godwine?) have droned on about, but two things I know well: war and money! The Reich thrives on both. One begets the other and vice versa in a never ending cycle. (Or was that virtue and piety?) It has always been this way and so it will always be. As a consequence of Prinz Jobst's actions, we are now at war with the Danes.

GOOD! Let's damned well crush them! They hold rich lands. If they are too weak to hold them, then that is their own fault. Oh yes, I suppose some of you will drone on and on about our reputation... *Lothar rolls his eyes.* Well the Danes are the enemies of our English allies! What will our oh so peaceful neighbors think if we don't come to the aid of our most afflicted friends? Surely aiding England by conquering the Danish provinces will make others think better of us.

*Lothar shrugs.* And if not, well, there's plenty of German steel to share with the rest of them! *He smiles and looks pleased with himself.* (Oh, summation! Hells, Gottwit... Godwit?... always said to do a summation at the end.)

WAR AND MONEY! YES! We need them... or want them... or something like that. Prinz Jobst's actions, right or wrong, provide us with the perfect opportunity. We should be thanking him, not scorning him. Right. That's it. I'm done.

*Lothar sits down. The Diet is still dead quiet and most of the Electors are looking at him quizzically. He leans over to the man sitting next to him.* (Is this almost over yet?) *The man clearly tries to ignore Lothar, who frowns and looks around the room. He smiles a bit when he sees Gerhard Steffen a few benches away.*

Hi, Dad!


Elberhard strode into the officer’s mess and clapped Kurt Altman on the shoulder:

“So, you old @#$%^&!!!, you’re finally going to get a chance to rip those @#$%^&!!!s at Edessa a new @#$%^&!!!, eh?!?”

Kurt looked round at the young prince with the pained expression of Ernest, Henry’s guard dog, being tormented by an irritatingly energetic young puppy.

“Master Elberhard,” Kurt touched his forehead in deference. “Your father has not confided his plans in me, you’d best be talking to him yourself.”

Elberhard turned round a chair and sat astride it, grabbing a leg of mutton from the table.

“Oh, @#$%^&!!! The old @#$%^&!!!’s not going all quiet and mysterious again is he?” Elberhard groaned, in an exaggerated world weary drawl.

Kurt gritted his teeth. “I am not sure as I rightly know to what you are referring to, young Master.”

Elberhard guffawed, spraying half digested mutton over the table. “Don’t @#$%^&!!! me, Kurt! You know what they say: you can’t @#$%^&!!! a @#$%^&!!!er! That @#$%^&!!! Kolar, that’s what I’m @#$%^&!!!ing referring to, as if you did not know."

Kurt stolidly munched on his food in silence, not giving anything away. Elberhard eyed him up carefully and continued:

"Man, he was one sly, smart son of a @#$%^&!!! Plans within plans, schemes and cons played out over decades. And yet, you know what the strange thing is? All he ever did, he did for the Reich. You may question his methods, but the old @#$%^&!!!er was our @#$%^&!!!er.”

Then, lightly, like a puppy tiring of a reluctant adult playmate, Elberhard sprang up and looked about, as if ready to leave:

“Got any women, here, Kurt?”

“What?” blurted out Kurt in shock, then quickly, “I am sorry, Sir, what did you say?”

“Oh, I forgot, you all think you are still on a @#$%^&!!!ing crusade to save Christendom, don’t you?” Elberhard laughed. “Pity you had to send Dirk away - he was the only one of you @#$%^&!!!ers who was any fun!”

With that, Elberhard threw the half-eaten leg of mutton on the table and strode off in search of his father.

Kurt looked gave a wry smile to the earnest Teuton sitting next to him: “Thank God they elected the other son.”

Get my point? :tongue:

gibsonsg91921
06-01-2007, 01:43
what about Ehrhart and Sigismund von Mahren - look at us in the Duchy of Austria, cuz we're pretty noble-sounding

OverKnight
06-01-2007, 01:49
Duly noted, it's not your father's Reich. I guess no matter what age he is, Otto is verbose. :laugh4:

Well, Lothar, as TC pointed out, is just 16 and played to be somewhat of an anti-Max just as Conrad is the anti-Heinrich. Elberhard has an interesting mix of traits besides being a foul-mouthed pervert. There's untapped potential in both. It will be interesting to see the transformations that will take place in all the new avatars.

StoneCold
06-01-2007, 02:02
Notice one thing that could spice up the IC gameplay... :P we are going to have a princess or 2 soon... Maybe let all the young avatars try and win the gal and the opinion of her father, grandfather? :P It would spice up the politics too as the opinions of the avatars on the Prince would push him to favor that particular avatar more or less...

This is the first time we had a princess that we didn't need to immediately marry her off to expand the avatar pool, l think we should play it out. Too bad we don't have a female roleplayer to play out the two gals. :P (probably going to have an explosion of love letters, secret meetings in the story thread if this is approve... :P)

FactionHeir
06-01-2007, 02:25
Anyone already starting to write the follow-up story to the Danish crusade dilemma? As noted in the report, both spies have reached their positions.

TinCow
06-01-2007, 03:53
Notice one thing that could spice up the IC gameplay... :P we are going to have a princess or 2 soon... Maybe let all the young avatars try and win the gal and the opinion of her father, grandfather? :P It would spice up the politics too as the opinions of the avatars on the Prince would push him to favor that particular avatar more or less...

This is the first time we had a princess that we didn't need to immediately marry her off to expand the avatar pool, l think we should play it out. Too bad we don't have a female roleplayer to play out the two gals. :P (probably going to have an explosion of love letters, secret meetings in the story thread if this is approve... :P)

An increase in station and nookie at the same time? You can count Lothar in.

Warluster
06-01-2007, 07:04
Jobst has all his favourites worked out, and a little story is developing...

As FactionHeir said, who is doing the followup? I volunteeer, since Jobst had the most to do with the whole stuff up, whatever you call it.

AussieGiant
06-01-2007, 08:15
Sorry guy's it's been a little hectic at work.

I'm staying in the Reich and wont be going on crusade.

Stuperman, Arnold will certainly accept the offer of caning the Hungarians with the BHA.

He needs to be knighted as soon as possible. TC could/should come along also.

The House's are link by quite a lot of background now and I'd like Lothar and Arnold to be knighted in the same battle for a few story board reasons.

FH,

I'm back home this evening and can give you a build queue for Budapest.

If Stuperman and TC are in agreement with the above idea then please make the necessary in game moves to accomplish this.

econ21
06-01-2007, 08:31
As FactionHeir said, who is doing the followup? I volunteeer, since Jobst had the most to do with the whole stuff up, whatever you call it.

You can take it - but please leave Dusan Kolar alone; he may have one more act to play.

AussieGiant
06-01-2007, 08:31
Notice one thing that could spice up the IC gameplay... :P we are going to have a princess or 2 soon... Maybe let all the young avatars try and win the gal and the opinion of her father, grandfather? :P It would spice up the politics too as the opinions of the avatars on the Prince would push him to favor that particular avatar more or less...

This is the first time we had a princess that we didn't need to immediately marry her off to expand the avatar pool, l think we should play it out. Too bad we don't have a female roleplayer to play out the two gals. :P (probably going to have an explosion of love letters, secret meetings in the story thread if this is approve... :P)


I'm in but only once I see her avatar face, if she's not my type then I'll find some other tart :laugh4:

Warluster
06-01-2007, 09:21
*shocked expression*

I don't meddle with other peoples stories or characters, wasn't even thinking of Dusan!
(Though maybe some other characters...wink,wink,nudge,nudge say no more.)

econ21
06-01-2007, 09:50
I've updated the playlist, including a marker for being a Duke's heir.

I know Gerherd Steffen is Otto's heir; by primo geniture, I am assuming Arnold is Leopold's and Ansehelm is Gunther's - the relevant Dukes can post if those assumptions are wrong.

Swabia does not seem to have an obvious heir, although Friedrich is young and could wait.

Ignoramus
06-01-2007, 09:55
Ulrich? :laugh4:

AussieGiant
06-01-2007, 10:04
Hi Econ,

You are correct about Austria. Leopold made his ascension plans clear in the Austrian House thread if you would like to check.

TinCow
06-01-2007, 11:54
Stuperman, Arnold will certainly accept the offer of caning the Hungarians with the BHA.

He needs to be knighted as soon as possible. TC could/should come along also.

The House's are link by quite a lot of background now and I'd like Lothar and Arnold to be knighted in the same battle for a few story board reasons.

If Stuperman and TC are in agreement with the above idea then please make the necessary in game moves to accomplish this.

I am in agreement, but I don't think the BHA is going eastwards. From what I've been reading, it's just heading north to garrison Milan. Regardless, Lothar is going east to be knighted however possible.

FactionHeir
06-01-2007, 13:01
AG: Stuperman said he wants to stay for cure, so the BHA won't be moving much it seems. Current orders that were received within the deadline are to have it garrison Milan.
Once a Bavarian (TC) is knighted though, I'll consider having to perform a few tasks if there are new orders.


And I bet Jobst will marry off Lyse to whoever supports him while he is emperor. Something like Heinrich.

AussieGiant
06-01-2007, 15:28
Hi All,

FH just confirmed that Kag (these nick names are just going great now), is bringing the AHA back to Ragusa to pick up me and whoever else is there and then go hunting Hungarian punetang!!

Maybe you need to get FH to move you over withm e and we can hang out until Kag arrives.

Kag is that ok with you?

Fantastics I just picked up foul language

gibsonsg91921
06-01-2007, 23:02
hey wheres the most recent save file?

TinCow
06-01-2007, 23:08
hey wheres the most recent save file?

Waiting for Xdeathfire to play his battle. He hasn't been on in a day and he previously said that he wasn't going to have much time for a while, so he might not make the time limit. I don't know exactly when FactionHeir sent him the save, but it looks like it will have to be autoresolved if he doesn't play it by sometime tomorrow.

OverKnight
06-01-2007, 23:08
I believe xdeathfire has it, Duke Scherer is assaulting Paris. The saves been out for over a day.

Go to:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/

click twice on last modified, and that should bring up the latest save:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1220-3.rar

FactionHeir
06-02-2007, 01:03
Xdeathfire says he'll play it today/tomorrow.

econ21
06-02-2007, 12:54
Xdeathfire says he'll play it today/tomorrow.

The savegame was uploaded on 31 May at 13.31 (no idea what time zone that is), so presumably the 48 hour deadline expires today. If it is a siege, I guess you could just hold rather than autoresolve.

It would be good if we could find a way of coordinating between Chancellors and generals to avoid this kind of delay. In WotS we had an upper house/lower house distinction. People who are going to be unavailable for more than 48 hours at a time probably should drop the Chancellor a PM or post here to say they won't be able to fight battles. I know GeneralHankerchief and Ignoramus found themselves in that position during my period as Chancellor.

FactionHeir
06-02-2007, 13:10
Xdeathfire has until 19:31 I think it is to fight the battle. (and upload it)

TevashSzat
06-02-2007, 19:31
Just finished battle. Sorry for the wait, schools a bit busy. I won and lost 260 men and killed around 1150 with about 300 captured. Battle report will be up and save is uploaded

FactionHeir
06-02-2007, 19:55
Great, exactly 48 hours, not a minute late :p

As for your post in the C&G reports, the build queues are late, but I did receive your previous build orders in time, which were "build what you like".
SHA legal orders have already been fulfilled and they will now be garrisoning Paris and defending the Swabian border. OOC rules prevent further invasion using the HA without edict.

TevashSzat
06-02-2007, 19:58
Battle report is up. The pics are a bit wierd though just to let you know. Couldn't resive the thing in paint so there is some white background on there.

So I can't invade more of France??? Thats a shame really seeing as how Caen and the city southwest of it are lightly defended and I can probably take bruges, caen, and that city before this term ends.

gibsonsg91921
06-02-2007, 20:41
just a warning - i dont have winRAR so if theres a battle involving Ehrhart von Mahren after he is knighted then itll have to be uploaded as a zip file.

ps i cant get winRAR either cuz i play on my moms work computer and she's never thrilled about downloading free software

FactionHeir
06-02-2007, 20:42
GAH wrong topic. delete this post.

AussieGiant
06-02-2007, 21:07
Well hell that is interesting.

Ragusa is full of enough troops to relieve Zagreb but none of the avatars are knighted to lead the attack. Doing an auto resolve would be too dangerous for 4 avatars I guess.

If the Budapest garrison is being besieged by the small two unit Hungarian army then auto resolve a sally if the attacking units are not too good.

The AHA details are for Jonas to decide.

FactionHeir
06-02-2007, 21:43
I don't want to risk losing Budapest to the Hungarians by trying to sally. If those are knight units, autoresolve would result in defeat.

I'm hoping the presence of the BHA will drive the Hungarians off from Zagreb, but we'll see. If necessary, I might send Lothar in for an autoresolve (either as attacker or standing next to Zagreb for defense) if Jonas cannot make it up quickly enough.

Currently, there are two battles to fight. Jonas von Mahren vs Venetian stack blocking his way (unless he wants to take a long route which might end up getting blocked anyway) and Günther von Kastilien against the Russians inside Thorn.
Save at: http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1222.rar

Rules are: First come first serve, if you take the save to play the battle, post here. If you do not upload a save of the battle within 3 hours of your posting, its up for grabs again. Also, if both battles are not fought within 50 hours from now, I will autoresolve the remainder.

Any comments on my unstructured preliminary report for 1222 so far?

Stig
06-02-2007, 21:54
mmmm I see Jonas von Mahren placed under the Austrian house, even tho Kage said he himself would stay a Franconian and that only his children would become Austrians.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1560538&postcount=77

AussieGiant
06-02-2007, 22:05
Good spot Stig.

That means as soon as Kag, knights me I will take over the AHA.

Now, how we do that is a problem. The Venetian's are blocking.

Maybe we can join en mass as reinforcements from the other side of the battle.

Kag are you there fella?

StoneCold
06-02-2007, 22:34
Stig, in the post and storyline, it was said that the AHA will be under Jonas until an Austrian can lead it, so nothing wrong with that. I agreed with AG, the troops and units from Ragusa can come in as reinforcement. Even if we follow the constitution of army should be lead by knights, we can just send in all the avatars bodyguard units. That way all could be knighted in one go.

AussieGiant
06-02-2007, 23:15
Stig, in the post and storyline, it was said that the AHA will be under Jonas until an Austrian can lead it, so nothing wrong with that. I agreed with AG, the troops and units from Ragusa can come in as reinforcement. Even if we follow the constitution of army should be lead by knights, we can just send in all the avatars bodyguard units. That way all could be knighted in one go.


That's a 10-4 rubber ducky!!

gibsonsg91921
06-02-2007, 23:54
hey OK nothing personal about arguing with u i just like to raise a ruckus.

StoneCold
06-03-2007, 00:02
The following is a list of the avatars and their location and status. Are those few unassigned avatars knighted yet? Also can everyone check if their locations are correct if it is not too much trouble. I do not have the game, so this is the only way I can keep track of pple. Thanks

Imperial House

Kaiser - Henry(k) - Econ
location - South of Damascus - Imperial army (IA)
Other titles - Ex-Chancellor, Crusader
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383666&postcount=6

Prinz - Jobst von Salza(k) - warluster
location - North of Staufen - IEA
Other titles - Count of Dijon, Elector of Swabia
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1455113&postcount=15

House of Swabia

Duke - Friedrich Scherer(k) - xdeathfire
location - West of Paris - SHA
Other titles - Elector of Swabia
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1558078&postcount=28

Count - Ulrich H&#252;mmel(k) - Ignoramus
location - Adana - garrison
Other titles - Count of Metz, Elector of Swabia, Crusader
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1489320&postcount=17

Count - Hans(k) - Factionheir
location - Near Constantinople - army?
Other titles - Count of Bern, Elector of Swabia, Crusader, Chancellor
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1489322&postcount=18

Count - Elberhard(k) - Pharnakes
location - Aleppo - garrison
Other titles - Elector of Swabia
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383665&postcount=5

Count - Harold von Dassel -
location - Dijon - garrison
Other titles - Elector of Swabia
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1557410&postcount=22

House of Austria

Duke - Leopold(k) - Ituralde
location - Aegean sea - 2nd Crusade Army
Other titles - Elector of Austria, Ex-Chancellor
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383669&postcount=7

Count - Arnold - AussieGiant
location - Ragusa - garrison
Other titles - Count of Budapest, Elector of Austria, Steward of Austria
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1557415&postcount=25

Count - Karl Zirn(k?) - Northnovas (knighted?)
location - Aegean sea - 2nd Crusade Army
Other titles - Count of Zagreb, Elector of Austria
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1557405&postcount=20

Count - Erhart von Mahren - gibsonsg91921
location - Ragusa - garrison
Other titles - Count of Prague, Elector of Austria
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1557413&postcount=24

Count - Sigismund von Mahren - CecilXIX
location - Ragusa - garrison
Other titles - Elector of Austria
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1558071&postcount=27

ArchdukeEvan - Fourth Elector of Austria

House of Franconia

Duke - Gunther von Kastilien(k) - Dutch_guy
location - sieging Thorn - FHA
Other titles - Elector of Franconia
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1425831&postcount=13

Count - Fredericus von Hamburg(k) - FLYdude
location - Aegean sea - 2nd Crusade Army
Other titles - Count of Hamburg, Elector of Franconia, Crusader
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1417046&postcount=12

Count - Jonas von Mahren(k) - Kagemusha
location - Near Ragusa - AHA (temp comander)
Other titles - Count of Magdeburg , Elector of Franconia, Crusader
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1440753&postcount=14

Count - Ansehelm von Kastilien(k) - Stig
location - Near Breslau - garrison ?
Other titles - Count of Thorn, Elector of Franconia
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1540300&postcount=19

Count - Helmut von Hamburg -
location - Aegean sea - 2nd Crusade Army
Other titles - Elector of Franconia, Crusader
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383675&postcount=8

Count - Jan von Hamburg -
location - Ragusa - garrison
Other titles - Elector of Franconia, Crusader
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1557407&postcount=21

Count - Fritz von Kastilien -
location - Florence - garrison
Other titles - Elector of Franconia
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1557411&postcount=23

Count - Peter von Kastilien -
location - northeast of Venice - BHA
Other titles - Elector of Franconia
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1558068&postcount=26

House of Bavaria

Duke - Otto von Kassel(k) - OverKnight
location - Adana - garrison
Other titles - Elector of Bavaria, Crusader, King of Outremer
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383683&postcount=10

Count - Gerhard Steffen(k) - Stuperman
location - Rome - garrison
Other titles - Count of Genoa, Elector of Bavaria, Steward
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1399326&postcount=11

Count - Conrad Salier(k) - GeneralHankerchief
location - Aegean sea - 2nd Crusade Army?
Other titles - Count of Milan, Elector of Bavaria
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1477551&postcount=16

Count - Lothar Steffen(k) - TinCow
location - northeast Venice - BHA
Other titles - Elector of Bavaria
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383680&postcount=9

OverKnight
06-03-2007, 00:15
The following is a list of the avatars and their location and status. Are those few unassigned avatars knighted yet? Also can everyone check if their locations are correct if it is not too much trouble. I do not have the game, so this is the only way I can keep track of pple. Thanks

Imperial House

Kaiser - Henry(k) - Econ
location - Outremer - Imperial army (IA)
Other titles - Ex-Chancellor, Crusader
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383666&postcount=6
South of Damascus, Imperial Army

Count - Ulrich Hümmel(k) - Ignoramus
location - Outremer (?) - army?
Other titles - Count of Metz, Elector of Swabia, Crusader
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1489320&postcount=17
Adana

Count - Elberhard(k) - Pharnakes? (knighted?)
location - Outremer, East of Aleppo - army?
Other titles - Elector of Swabia
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383665&postcount=5
Knighted by Hans, in Aleppo

Count - Fritz von Kastilien -
location - near Venice - BHA?
Other titles - Elector of Franconia
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1557411&postcount=23
Garrison Florence

Count - Peter von Kastilien -
location - ? - ?
Other titles - Elector of Franconia
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1558068&postcount=26
BHA Northeast of Venice

Duke - Otto von Kassel(k) - OverKnight
location - Outremer? - Army of Outremer?
Other titles - Elector of Bavaria, Crusader
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383683&postcount=10
King of Outremer, Acre

Count - Lothar Steffen(k) - TinCow
location - near Venice? - BHA
Other titles - Elector of Bavaria
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383680&postcount=9
Northeast of Venice, leading(?) BHA

StoneCold
06-03-2007, 00:18
Thanks alot OK.

FactionHeir
06-03-2007, 00:46
Also, there is only 1 crusade army with a lot of generals StoneCold.
Harald von Dassel is garrisoning Dijon and Jan von Hamburg is in Ragusa (unless I'm mixing the brothers up)
Peter von Kastilien and Lothar Steffen are travelling with the BHA (not commanding) and neither is knighted.
Jobst is north of Staufen with a medium-large force, that will grow to a full stack once he reaches the Danes.

StoneCold
06-03-2007, 00:59
I meant it as the 2nd Crusade. So one of the brothers von Hamburg stayed behind? I assumed both would have followed since they are so far south. :P

So what is the story behind Harald and Elberhard? You fought their battles? Elberhard is now a free avatar? I thought according to the rules they would have to be auto-resolved? And is Harald knighted?

FactionHeir
06-03-2007, 01:02
Elberhard is knighted, Harald (or was it Harold?) is not. Since the player for the former is inactive and there is no player for the latter, I did autoresolve both battles (otherwise that Egyptian noble would not have escaped ;) )

StoneCold
06-03-2007, 01:09
OIC.

My opinion regarding the commanding of the BHA is that the constitution is there to make the game harder for us. So I am a bit reluctant to see the BHA being lead by Lothar, a human controlled battle. I have no problem with auto-resolving that battle... :P if Lothar looses that battle, he will be more humble... :P assuming he doesn't die.

So what is the knighting process for a auto-resolve win? I assume the chancellor knight the commander as the army has no one of noble rank.

FactionHeir
06-03-2007, 01:17
I don't think there is a procedure for an autoresolve win, otherwise I would have needed to knight the unassigned von Dassel after the chased down the rebels.

To be honest though, I find it odd that we are knighting people after their first battle, regardless how small it is. Would be more fun to have 2 small battles or 1 large battle as a requirement. But of course we do lack knights in Europe currently, but considering Jonas will knight some 7 nobles in 1 battle...

Warluster
06-03-2007, 01:19
When I jobst was in Dijon, and someone needed knighting, I wouldn't just knight them. I used to send the requirements and what you have to achieve to be knighted.

gibsonsg91921
06-03-2007, 01:35
whose avatar is elberhard?

OverKnight
06-03-2007, 01:37
I agree that knighting should be merit based, I.E. rolling a few peasant bandits, unless the odds are against you, shouldn't be grounds for promotion. Still if there is a large or difficult battle and the bodyguard units for the avatars rack up some kills, they should be knighted.

If there's no senior commander present, knighting should be at the discretion of the Chancellor.

gibsonsg91921
06-03-2007, 01:43
hey stonecold ehrhart von mahren is the count of prague because archdukeevan is inactive

StoneCold
06-03-2007, 01:52
gibsonsg, ok updated on ehrhart. Elberhard was supposed to be Pharnakes, but I dun think he posted since he was assigned the avatar.

TinCow
06-03-2007, 02:16
If necessary, I might send Lothar in for an autoresolve (either as attacker or standing next to Zagreb for defense) if Jonas cannot make it up quickly enough.


My opinion regarding the commanding of the BHA is that the constitution is there to make the game harder for us. So I am a bit reluctant to see the BHA being lead by Lothar, a human controlled battle. I have no problem with auto-resolving that battle... :P if Lothar looses that battle, he will be more humble... :P assuming he doesn't die.

Ahem, I am a bit perturbed at this apparent joy of sending me into a battle for an autoresolve. Perhaps I should just have Lothar leave the army in fury at being denied command under the circumstances. I am not pleased with the idea of entrusting his fate to the computer.

econ21
06-03-2007, 02:19
Factionheir - please try to keep an eye on the historical army composition. I know it's hard to keep track of - I slipped up occasionally. But Prince Jobst's army has 6/10 knights when it should be 4/10 max and the BHA is one knight over too.

On the knights not commanding armies, I think it has got to be autoresolved - otherwise the whole business of knighting is meaningless. I agree knighting should only happen if the avatars do something valorous.

After an autoresolve, I guess the Chancellor should have discretion to knight surviving generals - but again, it should not be automatic (it should look like they actually fought - e.g. gained valour, a trait, lost a lot of men etc).

StoneCold
06-03-2007, 02:23
TC, nothing personal... but rules are rules... but I agree that it is a waste if she a good avatar dies in his first battle.

gibsonsg91921
06-03-2007, 02:25
i think it would be ok if lothar wasnt leading the BHA, but a squire leading the official forces of bavaria doesnt seem right.

econ21
06-03-2007, 02:25
Ahem, I am a bit perturbed at this apparent joy of sending me into a battle for an autoresolve. Perhaps I should just have Lothar leave the army in fury at being denied command under the circumstances. I am not pleased with the idea of entrusting his fate to the computer.

Well, you have that right - the Chancellor certainly should not send avatars into danger against the owning player's will.

But it is a tough choice both in and out of character. The autoresolve risks death, but is a fast route to promotion.

gibsonsg91921
06-03-2007, 02:26
if the odds are considerably in TC's favor i say autoresolve that biatch
otherwise, hold off.

TinCow
06-03-2007, 02:27
I've figured out a better solution, see the Diet. I get to command my own fate and the law isn't broken.

econ21
06-03-2007, 02:29
I've figured out a better solution, see the Diet. I get to command my own fate and the law isn't broken.

:2thumbsup:

OverKnight
06-03-2007, 02:33
In the same vein, Lothar could get his 6 units to command, and the other units in any prospective battle, the garrison and the rest of the BHA, could come in as reinforcements under AI command (IC the seperate commands of minor nobles). This way we have Lothar leading his portion of the battle legally, while still not having overall command.

Edit: Just imagine Lothar cursing the stupidity of the other Imperial commanders while bailing them out and seething about why, WHY didn't they give him overall command.

StoneCold
06-03-2007, 02:37
Good way round the rule TC. and will make for a great battle and definitely a Knighthood. :)

TinCow
06-03-2007, 02:39
Yes, the garrison as reinforcements under the AI is totally legit. What's in the garrison, btw?

gibsonsg91921
06-03-2007, 02:46
genius TC :book:

OverKnight
06-03-2007, 02:46
The Garrison is 5 units total:

Merchant Cavalry
Armoured Sergeants
Spear Militia
Town Militia x 2

gibsonsg91921
06-03-2007, 02:49
not a whole lot to work with - lets hope some of ol mandorfs skill isnt forgotten

Stuperman
06-03-2007, 05:27
hey, hey, BUSY weekend, and was out of town on fri so there has been limited updates form me, I'll be back sun night NA time.

AussieGiant
06-03-2007, 09:31
So what about my solution, I'm sitting picking my nose in Ragusa while TC is bending constitutional law as only he know's best :laugh4:

I NEED THIS GUY'S, I WANT THIS, I HAVE TO HAVE THIS :beam:

I'm off again in 1 week to Canada for 4 weeks. I wont be able to fight any battle's Arnold gets into myself in this time.

I have already received an agreement that Ituralde can fight for me...but I'm dying here. I've waited 5 months for an avatar and now I'm going to watching from the sidelines...:wall:

Ahh well, :yes:

AussieGiant
06-03-2007, 09:34
PS

I also would like to point out the army composition rule. With so many knights it is just unbalancing the already unbalanced situation further.

FH, I'm not saying this against you but just in general.

Maybe we need to pool all the avatars without people and plonk them somewhere as back ups.

FactionHeir
06-03-2007, 11:25
According to the rules travelling with unhistorical army composition is not a problem, only fighting battles is.
That said, my chancellor's report does state that Jobst is heading for Hamburg and bound to get reinforcements. When he does, he will have the proper number of knights as his overall army size increases.
As for the BHA, I was still considering how and if to let them fight. If Lothar's proposal is accepted, I'll split off a suitable composition of course.
Again, for the crusade, it was impossible to get more troops in time and they are on a ship currently. Composition will be changed once they land in Outremer.

Hope that clears it up.

Also, good note about the auto resolve knighting econ. Will keep that one in mind. Looks like we get to rewrite some charter at the next diet.

AussieGiant
06-03-2007, 12:23
I completely understand FH.

Cheers
AG

econ21
06-03-2007, 12:58
When I was Chancellor I was coming to the view that a full strength Household Army is a bit of overkill outside of full on war zones (ie outside of Rheims/Paris and Krakow). A smaller force such as Prinz Jobst's army is capable of handling most unexpected threats.

Where the enemy are less concentrated and we have to guard a larger area, it is probably a good idea to split up the Household Armies (ie the BHA and AHA), so that we have two half stack ones - they can draw on local militia where needed. They can guard twice as much territory (e.g. Bavaria could cover both Marseilles and Rome; Austria can cover both Budapest and Ragusa). As we knight more avatars that should be feasible and most players voted for two Household Armies a piece last Diet.

Stig
06-03-2007, 13:02
Stig, in the post and storyline, it was said that the AHA will be under Jonas until an Austrian can lead it, so nothing wrong with that. I agreed with AG, the troops and units from Ragusa can come in as reinforcement. Even if we follow the constitution of army should be lead by knights, we can just send in all the avatars bodyguard units. That way all could be knighted in one go.
I know, but Jonas was placed under the house of Austria, while he himself will always be a Franconian.

BTW didn't we vote against the small armies Franconia proposed in the last Diet. Would be strange to bring them back, wouldn't it?

And FH, shouldn't it be time to bring the young Franconian nobles to Franconia?

StoneCold
06-03-2007, 13:08
Stig, the vote was out because there was no maximum number of house army or imperial army the chancellor can make, only the minimum, at least one house army each.

The young franconian nobles are mostly down south, it will take a bit of time to move them north, I think FH was hoping to get Jonas to lead them north.

FactionHeir
06-03-2007, 13:22
What StoneCold said. Hopefully Jonas can get them all knighted or at least a few of them so those can get the rest knighted.
I'm not sure what to do about the unassigned Fritz von Kastilien yet. He's a good enough governor to keep one of the Italian cities from rioting and Bavaria lacks avatars on the west and south fronts. Having him there for even autoresolves would help at the moment. If the Duke of Franconia feels he wants Fritz to go north though, I can arrange that too.

FactionHeir
06-03-2007, 13:45
Due to the discovery of a major bug in CA's trait hardcode recently in the buglist, I have updated the fixes to version 1.25a. The only difference from 1.25 is that I disabled all NoGoingBackLevels for traits.

RAR format: http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix125a.rar
ZIP format [only for 7 days]: http://download.yousendit.com/A19F7CD3597F02BF

AussieGiant
06-03-2007, 13:56
I just hope it gets sorted out :help:

Once I'm knighted then Kag will be free to take those Franconian's nobles that are not part of Austria back up north.

I can then knight those that need to be using the AHA.

Then as econ suggests and something I realised previously (one of the reason's I voted for it) I will split the AHA in two and re-deploy with some of the knew knights.

Should I write this in the Diet FH or is this enough?

If I do, then Arnold's going to go banana's with all this bureaucracy :beam:

fix 125a installed!!

FactionHeir
06-03-2007, 14:03
You probably won't need to repost it. I was planning on splitting them anyway to cover south and east separately. Just need more knights for that.

FactionHeir
06-03-2007, 14:12
Hmmmm I just read the paragraph on household armies and noticed that contrary to popular belief, house armies actually are allowed to take more than 1 settlement per diet. It specifies in order 5 only the hostile action and that a settlement may be chosen as long as it borders the house and the empire is at war with the faction. Thus the SHA would be allowed to keep rolling through French territory in accordance to Xdeathfire's orders?

Dutch_guy
06-03-2007, 14:23
Hey guys, just a quick post to notify you all that I'll be fighting my battle some time today - probably around eight [20 00], as I've got some school work I really should be doing until then.

:balloon2:

Stig
06-03-2007, 14:31
The exams have finished haven't they?
Or aren't you that far yet?

Dutch_guy
06-03-2007, 14:46
The exams have finished haven't they?
Or aren't you that far yet?

I'm in my fifth year, meaning my CS isn't until next year. That said, had I actually finished my CS I wouldn't be in such a coherent state now would I ? :wink:

:balloon2:

Stig
06-03-2007, 14:53
heh good point ~:cheers:

Wait till yer at University

AussieGiant
06-03-2007, 15:03
Hmmmm I just read the paragraph on household armies and noticed that contrary to popular belief, house armies actually are allowed to take more than 1 settlement per diet. It specifies in order 5 only the hostile action and that a settlement may be chosen as long as it borders the house and the empire is at war with the faction. Thus the SHA would be allowed to keep rolling through French territory in accordance to Xdeathfire's orders?


I think the point FH was to prevent this type of thing happening. Even though you found another loop hole, it is a stated fact that HA are meant to defend and not go rampaging through foreign lands not matter what highly paid legal eagle has found. :)

If people want me to find loop holes then there are a tonne, and we don't want to go in that direction do we? :beam:

gibsonsg91921
06-03-2007, 15:07
dang i wanted ehrhart to get knighted so i could do some battling!

o well theres bigger duties to do around prague, like sititng around scratching my butt

Northnovas
06-03-2007, 15:50
My city might fall?? Being away from home just logged on and reading the post without seeing the game is like being on a Crusade and getting dispatches from home and not knowing how it is going to workout!
Will the reinforcements arrive, who will lead???
I guess it's best this way because if I was there I wouldn't be capable to lead because I haven't been knighted and would be on the same frustration level of AG.

FactionHeir
06-03-2007, 16:25
Check one of the screens in my report Northnovas. You'll find the situation there.

StoneCold
06-03-2007, 16:26
FH, originally the house army commands are only to be given at the start of your term, so at most each duke could only specify one city to be taken in each diet.

FactionHeir
06-03-2007, 16:32
Yes, that is right StoneCold, but the orders I got from Scherer during the diet via PM were to take Paris and then go and capture nearby French settlements. Before we took Paris, we already bordered Bruges, Angers and Toulouse as well, so those would be legit targets.

Now where's our resident lawyer to help us clear up what this CA actually means :tongue2: Not like I really want to go capture every French settlement in sight, but I would have to, if its legal.

StoneCold
06-03-2007, 16:41
hmm... maybe... Still dubious about that. Maybe TC can gives us his excellent ruling on that bit of law. But you can following it and see where it goes. With the western border undefended as such, the SHA on the attack, and the BHA in the east helping Austria, EIA heading north to the Danish threat and FHA in the northeast against the Russian... if any towns falls in the west, you can blame it all on the the swabians... :P Remember we are still pumping 10K a turn into their economy, I hope you are still doing that, so a full stack or two could appear out of nowhere any turn.

FactionHeir
06-03-2007, 16:56
Fun thing is that France has 4 Citadels and only 1 city left. With the huge cash injection they get each turn, it should get interesting.

TevashSzat
06-03-2007, 16:58
The French forces are basically all but destroyed in the area close to Paris due to the recent battles. Northwestern france is in shambles and last time I checked they barely got any garrisons. Only area where forces are present are southwestern France, but it would take them a while to assemble a large army again.

StoneCold
06-03-2007, 17:08
Not really. From what I read, the AI do not have a limited recruitment pool like us human players, so as long as they have the cash, they could get new troops. So there is not as much time as you think there is. Also, as you say, the north is in shambles, the french troops are in the southwest where the HRE do not have any armies, both swabians and bavarians are deployed elsewhere, only garrisons.

In the northeast, there are your SHA and the EIA, which will be there soon.

As a Duke, I think you should be more interested in protecting what lands you have, especially traditional swabian lands, than going on a conquering roll.

TinCow
06-03-2007, 17:23
The way the rule works, the Chancellor must obey (legal) Household Army orders that are submitted to him at the beginning of his term. Offensive operations can only target a single settlement. As the SHA instruction indicated Paris first, then Paris seems to be the single settlement target that the Chancellor had to let them take. The SHA orders about other settlements were invalid because they specified multiple settlements at the same time (plus they indicated territories which were not adjacent to Swabian lands at that time, which is also invalid). Therefore the initial SHA orders were fulfilled when Paris was taken.

The Duke of Swabia can give new orders for the SHA at any time and it is perfectly legal for him to specify further targets, so long as does it one at a time. However, any orders submitted after the start of the Chancellor's term are fulfilled at the Chancellor's discretion. So, whether the SHA continues to advance or not is totally up to FactionHeir. If he let's the Swabians do what they want, that is legal. If he makes them hold back, that is also legal.

FactionHeir
06-03-2007, 18:42
OK thanks for clearing that up TC. How much do we owe our lawyer? :D

StoneCold
06-03-2007, 18:52
I think just send his avatar soonest to the nearest battle and be knighted should be enough payment... hahaha

FactionHeir
06-03-2007, 19:05
econ: Good catch on the max 2 GB per stack. Totally forgot about that clause and was about to join the young boys with Jonas. Guess he'll have to pick up one at a time then or have them come in as AI or self controlled reinforcements.

[edit]
Reason I mention GB vs knight is that GBs counts as Knights, Cavalry AND GB in terms of army composition. Since we got a limit of 2 per stack, I thought making them not count as knight would be fair.
In RTW and MTW, GBs would destroy entire armies, but not really anymore in M2TW with shield fix etc. GBs are still strong against low grade units like town militia and peasant troops, but you normally won't see a single GB take down more than 3 high quality infantry unless you got unit support to get into their rear. GB also can at best kill 2 medium quality cavalry. Of course that's all speaking with 0 valor.

econ21
06-03-2007, 19:09
TinCow is right about the legalities regarding the Swabian Household Army - it is down to Factionheir but please, let's not rush France. Remember the Citadel thread from the HRE player who won the game by turn 14 or something? We don't want to go there. Without France, what's Swabia going to do? I think we should let the Swabians defend their new conquests for a while. At least let's put the conquest of France to a Diet vote - it did not even get a seconder at the last Diet.