View Full Version : MTW/VI Vs MTW2
Gawain of Orkeny
06-12-2007, 04:11
I dont want this to become a battle over which game is better. I know it appears to be from the title but what I really want to know is what parts of VI would you like to see re introduced in MTW2 and what things did they actually improve in MTW2 over VI. Im sure many of these have been covered in other threads. So Ill just throw up a few.
Things better in VI that should be in MTW2
the chat system both in the lobby and in the game
Balanced hilly maps
Attack Defend
Weather option
Things that are better in MTW2
You dont have to wait to redirect your army and keep it in formation
Its easier to locate your army exactly as the cursor is now the middle of your front line, not the center of your army.
In deployment all you need do is click on you units in the order you want and thats they way they line up when you drag a line.
Needless to say HA are far better and more realistic.
Again lets try to make this constructive not destructive. I dont want to hear how MTW2 is messed up but what we can easily do to make it better.
This is for the mp community only plz. In that I only want to hear how to make that better.
Ghost of Rom
06-13-2007, 03:57
Hey Gawaine! Nice post.
Fatigue has been fixed.
Vi was a bit of pain with the excessive fatigue. Just sitting around for a while drops all you troops 2 bars after a while. Try hitting anything with your archers when they are fatigued! Mtw2 is quite nice, you can run around quite a bit before exhaustion hits your troops. I've seen em go back all the way to fresh with a bit of rest.
Muskets don't skirmish by default!
If you ever tried fighting an ai army consisting of muskets you know what I mean. :dizzy2: Stand and bloody fight!
Gawain of Orkeny
06-13-2007, 14:55
Other things from VI that should be in MTW2
The fatigue bar
Letting you know who has and has not deployed
A number rating for morale
Being able to move the annonying messages from the center of your screen in the in the deployment phase.
Get rid of the spy bug. You know the push down on the mouse wheel button.
F-1 should give you the same screen as in VI
Hold position hold formation
All these things were good in VI and for the life of me dont know why they removed them
All these things were good in VI and for the life of me dont know why they removed them
I told you why good features were removed, and you're going to be waiting until hell freezes over for them to come back.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-14-2007, 13:16
I told you why good features were removed, and you're going to be waiting until hell freezes over for them to come back.
There is no reason I can see that the new engine cant handle these things. Please tell me again. In fact it has nothing to do with the battle engine in most cases.
It's due to the market that Creative Assembly is now targeting. For instance, they flatly refused to fix the mouseover info with the reasoning that it would only be of interest to hardcore players. So, you can forget about making suggestions that are only of interest to the hardcore group. All of my suggestions fall into this category. I made some suggestions in the official multiplayer feedback thread at .com, but I know they won't be implemented.
Oh, now now Puzz, don't be so sad.
When you mouse over units you see loads of info, in RTW and in MTW2 ... when are you going to buy the game?
When you mouse over units you see loads of info, in RTW and in MTW2
The point i believe, is that the information was displayed in older titles in the unit cards - you could immediately see in what state the unit was without making a mouse over.
It was even more contradictory since the action in the newer games is generally faster leaving even less time for mouse overs during battle - effectively you are playing more on intuition and information from the battle screen in the new games.
I guess the rationale is to reach a graphical level that the graphics tell you all you need to know without knowing numbers, but the move was premature because in MP you play zoomed out generally and can't waste time looking at graphical details that tell you that your unit is "losing badly" for example.
There was also a comprehensive summary of all unit information including morale, displayed by pressing F1 - that was also taken out. That would have been very useful for SP modders and the like for figuring out engine workings in addition to MP players.
These would be really welcomed features if they are to return, i believe.
Many Thanks
Noir
Well no matter how far zoomed out you are you can always see some dirt on the men after long fighting (ie. you see less colour) and the more dirt the more fighting and the weaker the men are.
Well no matter how far zoomed out you are you can always see some dirt on the men after long fighting (ie. you see less colour) and the more dirt the more fighting and the weaker the men are.
Does that indicate morale, fatigue or any other parameter? What i mean to ask is can you tell in what respect precisely they are weaker?
Many Thanks
Noir
Well if you see some men that are dirty, and you see little of them are left you mouse over them to see the stats you want to know about? It just gives you one parameter, either dirty or not.
And unless you're some very hardcore player, who doesn't play this game for fun, that's all you need.
Well if you see some men that are dirty, and you see little of them are left you mouse over them to see the stats you want to know about? It just gives you one parameter, either dirty or not.
In other words it seems that you say that the mouse over is necessary rgardeless of graphics ie verify my initial point and also that you don't have a clue what parameter it affects and so what information the dirt gives. Thanks
And unless you're some very hardcore player, who doesn't play this game for fun, that's all you need.
I play entirely for fun - but losing or winning without knowing why ain't my definition of fun in any game, sport or other activity that remotely involves competition - it seems to be yours, and that's fine.
Many Thanks
Noir
Well no, when I see some dirty men I know they are weaker.
However I to see why I need to mouse over them. But I can expect them to be weaker, and for a professional noob like me that's enough.
I'll buy the game when Creative Assembly restores the multiplayer game to its former quality which, as far as I can see, will be when hell freezes over. Certainly, M2TW is a lost cause at this point, but there are also serious doubts concerning the next game after the expansion.
There is no requirement that I own the game to make comments about it. I can read what people who do own it and what CA says just fine. Unfortunately, the design of the engine limits network performance. Why would I want to purchase something like that when I currently play a Total War multiplayer game that is less limited in its network performance, and has better playbalance, tactical depth and unit visibility?
The mouse over info I'm talking about is the numerical info on upgraded units in the army purchase screen. It was wrong in RTW, and what I've read in the SP forum suggests it's still wrong in M2TW.
On the battlefield, distinguishing 4 states of fatigue and morale is sufficient if those are the transition levels where combat performance changes.
Why is this game so bad, if people are enjoying playing it?
CA isn't making this game for you.
They had these choices:
We make a game Puzz likes and earn 50,-
We make a game everyone but a couple of guys like and earn a couple of millions
We do both, but that takes so long (finding something that both like) that it can't be done
CA isn't making this game for you.
They had these choices:
We make a game Puzz likes and earn 50,-
We make a game everyone but a couple of guys like and earn a couple of millions
We do both, but that takes so long (finding something that both like) that it can't be done
An interesting perspective - i would gladly applaud it if you had a CA badge/avatar.
Unfortunately for you, and for those that read your repetitive posts, you haven't.
Many Thanks
Noir
Atleast I'm not as repetitive as someone who hasn't even got the game and still comments on it.
I know what I'm talking about.
Well if you see some men that are dirty, and you see little of them are left you mouse over them to see the stats you want to know about? It just gives you one parameter, either dirty or not.
And unless you're some very hardcore player, who doesn't play this game for fun, that's all you need.
This isnt dirt lol. Its blood. This indicates that this men beeng hit once at least, but was saved by his armor or shield. Next hit mean death for this men while may not be lethal for men in shiny new armor in the same unit.
And i agree, why CA removed great features? I think, with their humanity the next game will be for blind players or may be for animals? Why :daisy:?
Why is this game so bad, if people are enjoying playing it?
CA isn't making this game for you.
They had these choices:
We make a game Puzz likes and earn 50,-
We make a game everyone but a couple of guys like and earn a couple of millions
We do both, but that takes so long (finding something that both like) that it can't be done
If talking about MP vs SP (and not Puzz vs the-rest-of-the-world) I would take this one step further, and say it's theoretically impossible to do both. Why? Because MP and SP are conflicting concepts. One is social, the other one anti-social. It's not only about competing development resources (e.g. strenghtening AI vs networking). When designing a social game, you have to start out with the social aspects. The balance between skill and luck is vital, otherwise the game won't be fun. This is not even important for SP, because you are not comparing yourself with the AI in that respect. Moreover, for MP team battles, the key to winning the game is good communication. This is a function that's not even possible in SP. You also need to communicate to arrange games, and even more important, say thanks afterwards (if I'm not mistaken this is another feature that got worse with time). The list can be made long.
A thought, how come there are about 8.5 million people meeting online in WoW and only a few hundreds in TW?
how come there are about 8.5 million people meeting online in WoW and only a few hundreds in TW?
Because the game is made for SP, simple as that. It just also happens to have a MP option.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-14-2007, 22:53
Again I say if they really cared they would just make two seperate patches. One for Sp and one for Mp. But if they dont care what can we do? Im amazed they dont see the possibilities. They are so close.
Because the game is made for SP, simple as that. It just also happens to have a MP option.
Yup, i know, was being rhetoric. What I meant was, a target is 8.5 million players online is not impossible to achive. It's not that there isn't a market. The TW customer base is large enough to prove that, Blizzard clearly found out a way to make money, and although different genres both TW and WoW are games where you go out and fight with and against other people, how hard can it be... But I'm afraid I'm getting slightly off-topic...
Have you seen the results of the polls?
How many players care about MP?
And than you see why CA never bothers, they think it's not worth it.
No, you mean this one:
http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/91035c82553f8db49f7f0203d95e94c10fc171e.jpg
So it appears to be about 50% that are interested in MP.
Have you ever played online?
And I only take the 50+ as proper MP players (like the guys in this forum and myself). That's 15,8%.
44,8% even say they're not interested.
44,8% not interested => 55,2% are/would/could be interested
i.e a majority (ok subtracting the pacifists get about 50%)
Note that 1712 (37%) answered that they don't play online because of problems. Note how well it corresponds with those (34%) who say they played 2-49 times.
Yeah, I've played online, but was a long time ago now.
Why is this game so bad, if people are enjoying playing it?
CA isn't making this game for you.
They had these choices:
We make a game Puzz likes and earn 50,-
We make a game everyone but a couple of guys like and earn a couple of millions
We do both, but that takes so long (finding something that both like) that it can't be done
Ah come on.... U will find some people who enjoy eating sand from the sahara...what does it tell us?
Its nice too see some enjoy the current TW game, but dont tell us that the game is insane good, just coz u find some who enjoy it.
Its different maybe, but for sure the deepness how it was before is gone and u can easy find the weakness of the current game.
Already VI was dumped down from STW, alone the fatique problem was terrible.
I won most games not about great movement, i wont most games by tire out the enemy units = less skill needed, low movement and just push other to do what u want.
anyway, even if u can accept the "different" playing, what u cant accept is the insane lag...
mars
Aye agree about lag. But that's all due to the internet connections this game demands, but with the current engine that can't be solved.
Untill they finally decide to get away from the GameSpy Beta version they are using. :furious3:
Aye agree about lag. But that's all due to the internet connections this game demands, but with the current engine that can't be solved.
Untill they finally decide to get away from the GameSpy Beta version they are using. :furious3:
No, this has nothing to do with Gamespy. CA isnt able to create a game, like hundreds of other company, which is running without lag and problems from day one!
I mean, on what drugs u have to be, to not notice some lag while playtest it on average computer over internet?!?
This is the real problem with this company, i dont blame em for the gamemecanics, i blame em to know abotu the problems and dont do anything against.
They 100% did know about lag before release! But they decided to DONT do anything about it! This is a serious problem!
We have to split up stuff, the gamemecanics, were u will tons of player who like the current game and also the same amount, who dont like it. And than u need to see the basics for every game!
CA clearly fail to solve the basics, they always need months to get a patch out. Even with insane bugs, they need ages to solve it. Mostly they need at least 6 months to make the game playable at least for online.
Its all determind to the Singe Player and campaigns, majority of these customer dont notice the most bugs anyway, nor they ever will notice that there is lag if u play online.
CA should skip the online part of the TW serie. The 5% Mplayer cause 90% of the complains and trouble....
Mars
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
06-15-2007, 12:59
Aye agree about lag. But that's all due to the internet connections this game demands, but with the current engine that can't be solved.
Untill they finally decide to get away from the GameSpy Beta version they are using. :furious3:
The problem must be MTW2 and not gamespy. In MTW VI I can have 4vs4 with 10000 soldiers without lag and Gamespy. Why should I have lag with MTW2 and 2000 soldiers?:inquisitive: The engine of MTW2 isn't able to generate big battles lagfree. But the engine can render colorful panties and flowers on the meadow.
:shame:
You forget that this needs a far better computer and internet connection.
Someone from CA (not giving names) told me that you'll be fine if you have a 5mb internet connection and play at medium, everything under that and gone.
Or maybe just doesn't want to solve something is all people can do is complaining.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-15-2007, 16:37
You forget that this needs a far better computer and internet connection.
Like I keep saying in games where everyone has real good PCs and connections the game flies. A way of rating ones online performance once more would be nice. Whether the community does it themselves or CA does it. Ping just dont hack it anymore.
Aye, I think the lobby should be made bigger.
You should get buddy list.
You should be able to click player names to see their profile, in that you can see their settings, internet connection and computer specs, country they come from and some more.
You should be able to download things from ingame. Players can upload mappacks, mods (MP mods) and some more.
You can see more details from a game when clicking on it before joining
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-17-2007, 03:54
I'll buy the game when Creative Assembly restores the multiplayer game to its former quality which, as far as I can see, will be when hell freezes over. Certainly, M2TW is a lost cause at this point, but there are also serious doubts concerning the next game after the expansion.
There is no requirement that I own the game to make comments about it. I can read what people who do own it and what CA says just fine. Unfortunately, the design of the engine limits network performance. Why would I want to purchase something like that when I currently play a Total War multiplayer game that is less limited in its network performance, and has better playbalance, tactical depth and unit visibility?
The mouse over info I'm talking about is the numerical info on upgraded units in the army purchase screen. It was wrong in RTW, and what I've read in the SP forum suggests it's still wrong in M2TW.
On the battlefield, distinguishing 4 states of fatigue and morale is sufficient if those are the transition levels where combat performance changes.
I mean, I have to laugh at Puzz's post because, his post is right and makes sense while people here are always against him.:yes:
Gawain of Orkeny
06-17-2007, 06:06
while people here are always against him.
You mean certain people. :whip:
If you don't have something you're not allowed to critise.
His critisism is the same as me critisising the Peugeot 1007. Yes I've heard loads about it and that it is bad, but I can't voice my opinion untill I've driven it, can I?
His critisism is the same as me critisising the Peugeot 1007. Yes I've heard loads about it and that it is bad, but I can't voice my opinion untill I've driven it, can I?
This forum is not for the discussion of the Peugeot 1007, either the Front- or Backroom can be used for that.
Kom op Tosa, het was slechts een voorbeeld, dat weet jij best
If you don't have something you're not allowed to critise.
His critisism is the same as me critisising the Peugeot 1007. Yes I've heard loads about it and that it is bad, but I can't voice my opinion untill I've driven it, can I?
MizuYuuki has earned the right to criticise as he's one of the most respected Mutliplayer in the community. He explained why he thought the MP side of MTW2 was rubbish and wouldn't improve by using his knowledge of the games dynamics.......... maybe you can tell me why he's wrong?.
He doesnt need to own the game to know its limitations, just like I dont need to drive a Peugot 107 to know I'd hate it.
Judging by your statement you must have also played STW and VI in MP to allow you to be able to criticise Yuuki's opinion that their MP was better. What name did you play under as I don't remember an MP called Stig and I played 5 nights a week, and according to your profile you must have been 12yo when playing STW online............I'm impressed!.
Well if you see some men that are dirty, and you see little of them are left you mouse over them to see the stats you want to know about? It just gives you one parameter, either dirty or not.
And unless you're some very hardcore player, who doesn't play this game for fun, that's all you need.
How can you write that and expect to be taken seriously.
I know what I'm talking about.
:wall:
and for a professional noob like me that's enough.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum
I never played STW, and I don't need to play it to know MTW2 is a proper game. I can't help the self-proclaimed veterans don't like it.
You'll find me as UgliStig in the lobby if you wanna know
ArmaEtLorica_Mongoclint
06-18-2007, 07:45
As Gawain didn't want it seems to have become a bash/support this or that. Although, I think some great suggestions have come out about things that were in VI and should be added to MTW II.
I, for one would like to give props where they are due. We have all bashed CA (me included for that abomination that was RTW), but you know what, with the new patch, MTW II is a great game. As Gawain says, with all good comps, no lag issues. Gamespeed is good. You can win games by superior management of your troops on the field.
And frankly, although I never thought I'd say this, I think the MP is more fun than MTW VI. You can make good and unique armies out of almost every faction whereas, except for a creative and daring few in MTW, you were relegated to the same CMA/FMA/Chiv knights/Pavs. And I really don't miss the 10 minute pav war to start every game.
So I'm sorry MizuYuuki doesn't like the game and he has every right to his opinion (I quit RTW online fairly quickly), but I love it with the patch and my whole clan is coming back and enjoying it.
As for the original point of the thread, I agree with everything Gawain said about improving it with VI features he mentioned, but as for MTW II's biggest advantage, I think it is the ability to create competitive armies with so many different factions and different unit variety.
Mongo
Molded by time and shaped by experience, it's certainly no secret that in total war community there was a lot of varying ideas about what's what & who's who. In fact, to say that some tw members are opinionated would only be to state the obvious. Let's not forget that special interest groups and the old-boy network are just as much a part of this tradition as they are to politics. Amidst the workings of this wonderful tradition, woven firmly within its political fabric, there exists a particular mindset that not only impedes the learning process; it undermines MP community, at least what remained of the old and what we have in the new.
True Nem, yet Elmo also mentioned all there is needed to be mentioned and Koc on the other side. You either like MTW2 or you dislike it. Same goes for STW or MTW. For many best balanced serie of TW was VI and not STW. Different views and different opinions but arguing all the time and persuading new to TW series how great first series were (are) is wrong direction.
MizuYuuki has earned the right to criticise as he's one of the most respected Mutliplayer in the community. He explained why he thought the MP side of MTW2 was rubbish and wouldn't improve by using his knowledge of the games dynamics.......... maybe you can tell me why he's wrong?.
He doesnt need to own the game to know its limitations, just like I dont need to drive a Peugot 107 to know I'd hate it.
Nem,
How would you feel about a whole heap of dudes that didnt like CA, didnt own any CA games, turned up and started trolling the forums slagging TW games at every opportunity.
It one rule for all
if you want to talk about M2TW MP in the M2TWMP forum you should at least own a copy of M2TW and have played or attempted to play a game MP
otherwise your just another troll
even if the things you say are correct
I never played STW, and I don't need to play it to know MTW2 is a proper game. I can't help the self-proclaimed veterans don't like it.
It seems very strange to me that on one hand you say people that do not own or play MIITW do not have the right to speak against it while you preserve yourself the right to say that you dont need to have played any of the older titles to understand what this games potential is and how it is suppose to be and that any critiscism that is backed with how the old games worked is wrong. :juggle2:
I think maybe you need to have played some of the old games to be able to understand the critiscism that these "self-proclaimed vets" are making (as you prefer to call them, I wonder who you would call veterans of totalwar if not those who were around for so many years and started the clancommunity and competitions and so on).
How on earth do you otherways know what could have been done better with the new titles?? Of course if all you played was Rome and MIITW I can understand that you are amazed of the large armies on the field and morale aspects (such as they are) and so on. Well my guess is that you would be even more amazed if some of the points of the vets were implemented into the game.
Puzz was the leader of the betatest team for many of the games (correct me if im wrong Puzz), yet you do not think he has any clue of what he is talking about?? Kocmoc (mars) was one of the very best mp-players in mtw-vi yet you do not think he knows if the game gets worse or better??
Funniest thing of them all is the last post by Yun al-Din stating that even if the statements are correct they are only trolling. Comments like that makes you wanna cry or laugh, dunno which one to choose. But maybe comments like this is the confirmation of the games having been dumbed down :P
Tell you what though, I own all the new games unfortunatly, so I can confirm that development is nothing but backwards. (Kingdoms will be the first I do not buy, cause I wont get ripped off more money until they start to listen, you on the other want us to promote bad game making by enlarging the number of sold betaproducts, please explain how and why they ruined the game chatsystem for instance, it makes no sence what so ever!!!!). I tried them and it is totally obvious if you also played any of the older games that development is backwards not forwards, apart from you being able to see some blood and dirt on the soldiers of course. :no:
Kalle
Grey_Fox
06-18-2007, 11:48
If Stig said that STW was complete and utter crap without playing it he would be shouted down for his noob opinion. Puzz calls MTW2 crap without having played it once and is going on hearsay and biased opinion is lauded as a 'hero' (wrong word I know but I'm tired and pressed for time) and his word taken as gospel. Anyone see any double standards here?
Biased opinion? So you mean that we would not want MIITW to be a good game?? It is not like I, or most others posting here are working for some other computergame company trying to advocate some other competing gametitle.
It does however surprise me that some people here talks as if they were hired by a certain computergaming companies marketing division. :inquisitive:
There are people who wants improvement and there are people who are happy as it is and cant stand that some see faults where they see none.
Kalle
As pointed out in my previous post, this is double standard;
It seems very strange to me that on one hand you say people that do not own or play MIITW do not have the right to speak against it while you preserve yourself the right to say that you dont need to have played any of the older titles to understand what this games potential is and how it is suppose to be and that any critiscism that is backed with how the old games worked is wrong.
guyfawkes5
06-18-2007, 14:32
Stigglet said:
I never played STW, and I don't need to play it to know MTW2 is a proper game.
However, Stigglet did not say:
...you dont need to have played any of the older titles to understand what this games potential is and how it is suppose to be...
Stigglet said that ownership of previous TW titles is not necessary to enjoy the game and gain fulfillment from it, but Kalle makes out Stigglet said that ownership of previous TW titles is not necessary of ascertaining the potential of the TW series as a whole.
A false representation of an opponent's argument due to the weakness of the stance you have taken up, thus a strawman argument.
---------------------------------------------
Stigglet said:
...someone who hasn't even got the game and still comments on it.
However, Stigglet did not say:
...that any critiscism that is backed with how the old games worked is wrong.
Stigglet said that constantly expressing a 'qualified' opinion of a game without ownership of the actual product in question is deeply flawed, but Kalle makes out Stigglet said that any criticism of M2TW referring back to older titles is flawed.
Again, a false representation of an opponent's argument due to the weakness of the stance you have taken up, thus a strawman argument.
I like this thread :bounce:
Puzz calls MTW2 crap without having played it once and is going on hearsay and biased opinion is lauded as a 'hero' (wrong word I know but I'm tired and pressed for time) and his word taken as gospel. Anyone see any double standards here?
I never said MTW2 was crap. I said the battle engine is inferior to the old battle engine. This has been demontrated by people who have run tests on M2TW, and posted the results. All I have to do is compare their results with the results I got testing STW, STW/MI, MTW, MTW/VI, RTW and RTW/BI over that last 6 years.
The network performance of M2TW is definitely inferior to MTW. It's not just a little bit inferior. It's dramatically inferior, and there is no reason for it to be like that. Jamie Furgeson says it's due to limitations in the engine.
M2TW shouldn't require a much more powerful cpu than MTW, but for some unexplained reason it does. All RTW and M2TW should have required is a better video card and perhaps more memory and a slightly faster cpu. The memory leak in RTW required that I double the memory in my machine, and that cost me $200. Certainly between RTW and M2TW the system requirements shouldn't have jumped up. My machine runs RTW fine, and yet I need a new machine to run M2TW. Something is wrong with the way this game is coded.
MTW didn't have good playbalance. Cav/sword armies dominated multiplayer, xbows and arbs took too long to use their ammo, archers were not effective enough and the fatigue rate was not optimized for large maps that last point being confirmed by LongJohn. You can't access the full potential that the battle system is capable of providing unless the system is well balanced. The 25% imbalance that LongJohn contended was pretty good actually falls short of what is required. In STW, the warrior monk was imbalanced by 10% to 15%, and it caused problems. Playbalance in the Samurai Wars mod for MTW/VI is better than 10%, and the result is that no army purchase rules are required. Even the tax on more than 4 of a single unit type isn't necessary. There are 3 RPS systems operating simultaneously with multiple unit types represented in the 6 unit categories. The gameplay is highly complex, and it's achieved with the anti-cav bonus of spears being the only intrinsic melee combat bonus.
Morale level should be adjusted so that attrition and maneuver are dynamically balanced in the gameplay. From my experience, there is a narrow range of value over which the system works properly. LongJohn agreed with us that the optimal morale level is probably different for team games as opposed to 1v1. This can be considered to be a second order effect, and it's the kind of refinement you would have expected to be addressed at this stage of 6 years into the development of the Total War series. Instead, the primary optimal value is still ellusive, and Creative Assembly still refuses to provide independent settings on this parameter and the fatigue rate parameter in fine enough gradation that the players can determine the optimal values empirically.
Units should respond quickly and precisely to commands. If they don't then the game is hampering the player especially if he is trying to react to a situation. If the player understands the situation and knows the tactic to be employed to counter the situation, the game shouldn't hinder him from executing the manuever. The new battle engine is inferior to the old engine in this regard since it introduced delay in the response to orders, degraded unit cohesion, increased difficulty controling units and increased micromanagement of the cav charge.
Introducing more randomization into the gameplay also reduces the apparent skill difference between players. Some uncertainly is good, and the original game using 60 man units and a 1 second combat cycle provided a sufficient level of uncertainty. The 60 man unit size was the magic number that Palamedes was refering to in his blog, but it has to be coupled with a combat cycle length and probablity to kill to be meaningful. Slowing down the combat cycle, reducing the number of men in a unit and giving men multiple hitpoints increases the uncertainly which makes the simulation less robust. If the RPS is also reduced, then the uncertainty is an even larger factor in determining the outcome of an encounter. To some extend this is offset by giving special abilities to units to counter specific units, but this increases micromanagement and is an artificial bonus. It's not needed if the RPS is kept strong enough and the combat system is balanced.
Creative Assembly justified the choices it made in the design of the new battle engine by saying it was broadening the appeal of the Total War game. They are going to continue broadening the appeal of Total War in the future right?
The old commuity was dedicated to maintaining the quality of the multiplayer game in terms of tactical depth and performance. This old community has been replaced by people who accept substantially inferior quality in both areas, and they are even will to pay more for it.
This old community has been replaced by people who accept substantially inferior quality in both areas, and they are even will to pay more for it.
You don't have the game anyway, why care?
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-18-2007, 20:20
You don't have the game anyway, why care?
"MizuYuuki has earned the right to criticise as he's one of the most respected Mutliplayer in the community. He explained why he thought the MP side of MTW2 was rubbish and wouldn't improve by using his knowledge of the games dynamics.......... maybe you can tell me why he's wrong?."
Now if you saw that part of Nem's Post. that would answer you question. HE doesn't need to play the game to know how it is. He been here a hell of alot longer then myself or you or some other MP players here for that matter, so of course he puts up a better argument then you Stig.
I can't stand to play nethier RTW or MTW2 anymore due to the poor gameplay, and Hell, I played both games and the lobby in MTW2 is just the same as RTW. Half the time no one is speaking or I usallay see a flame War going on. Don't see that when I used to play Samurai Warlords Every Sunday months ago.
*points at posts made by Foxy and Guido*
You know we are right, pity you don't want to admit it
I don't like to see people disappointed with their purchase. My posts are intended for people who haven't purchased the game yet. I can understand that people who have purchased the game may want to justify their purchase, and not want to hear negative comments about it.
Well yeah, you don't want people to get disappointed, but not everyone thinks like you ... me for example, I like the game
Grey_Fox
06-18-2007, 21:19
I think Samurai Wars is rubbish and I am going to do the best to stop people from downloading it as it's a waste of time. Please ignore the fact that I've never played it and never even intend to play it as I am just so disillusioned with it's creator.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-18-2007, 21:43
People please. Didnt we have enough of this in the other thread? I want things here from VI that can easily be implemented into MTW2. Thats all I want. Certainly no one is more quailified than MizuYuuki . He was legend before I even got here. The Mizu clan has pretty much dissected STW and MTW/VI and put them back together. Put please gentlemen can we just have fixes here. This is sounding to much like congress. Can we please stay on topic. If you want to start a thread why MTW2 is inferior to whatever be my guest.
I want things here from VI that can easily be implemented into MTW2. Thats all I want.
Hello Gawain of Orkeny,
That's a bit of a catch with software.
What struck me in RTW was the limited set of maps (directly) available for MP, compared to VI. CA made a pretty nice system of real time battlemap generation out of the worldmap in SP. Of course, you could edit in the coordinates to make more MP maps, but it would be nice to have a display of the worldmap (or user made worldmaps) and select a location from that. Extend that with a favourite list and a xy box to type the coordinates and you have a solid and virtually unlimited source of maps to play on.
It seems the thing is already there, also for MP, just not the proper GUI.
I think it's important to have individual unitspeeds back, instead of just a few harder wired animationclasses. Another thing I like in VI is the individual def- and offensive anti cavalry bonusses.
Chaos Cornelius lucius
06-18-2007, 23:10
I would definitly agree with individual offensive and defensive anti cav bonuses. At the moment it seems almost impossible to kill heavy cav in any numbers with infantry.(at least to me anyway).
A unit that would carve its way through heavy cav something like chiv foot knights used to do in VI is needed IMO.
I think Samurai Wars is rubbish and I am going to do the best to stop people from downloading it as it's a waste of time. Please ignore the fact that I've never played it and never even intend to play it as I am just so disillusioned with it's creator.
I agree Samurai Wars is terrible - I havent played it and dont even have MTW installed on my machine - but I heard from others that it was rubbish so I just thought I better post on here to save people from downloading it. Because this is where people would come to find out if they should, and if I point out enough of its flaws maybe magically it will improve (although I will not help to improve it because I dont have it).
We are not arguing if Puzz is correct in his criticisms of the game - we all understand what wrong with the game (Puzz has told us all 100x). But is Puzz pointing out the floors in the game going to improve the game? Is it adding to the discussion of M2TW - or just taking away. And he doesnt own the game = trolling
I hardly think large numbers of people considering buying M2TW (at this late stage) are going to be finding their way to this subforum and reading 100s of posts - seems to me more like 'told you so' shadenfraud
And while I am trying to maintain a respectful attitude toward Puzz3d (and respect his opinions and hope to oneday play against he and Koc again) - Kalle - you couldnt resist taking a cheap personal shot at me and the other M2TW players as being 'dumbed down' :p
your name is noted - for the first time - not for being a player but yet another troll. With nothing to add other than bashing M2TW and its PLAYERS
congratulations whoever you are
we all understand the flaws of the game - we dont need to hear them daily in every M2TW thread
I was trying to be polite about this but I must request action from the Mods - people who arnt playing M2TWMP (by their own admission) should have their posts deleted from this forum and be given the appropriate warnings
My prior post has suggestions for improving the game:
1. Improve the network performance.
2. Reduce the cpu requirement.
3. Reduce imbalance to less than 15%.
4. Improve the RPS so that you don't need so many special bonues.
5. Optimize the morale level so that attrition and maneuver are dynamically balanced.
6. Optimize the fatigue rate to the map size.
7. Make the units more responsive and improve unit cohesion.
8. Reduce the uncertainty in the combat results.
and a few more:
9. Adjust the cost of the units so that each unit is worth what it costs.
10. Remove the battlefield upgrades from multiplayer.
11. Remove the multiple hitpoints from units.
12. Bring back the original ballistic model.
13. Lower the charge speed by the same ratio that running speeds were lowered relative to RTW.
Hosakawa Tito
06-19-2007, 18:15
Boy, leave town for a few days and the sleepy MP forum suddenly gets rather hot.
It seems we have yet another "Less Filling vs Tastes Great" argument going here. Some are taking it a bit personal. So, let us all take a breath and remember this is a game, the sun shall still rise tomorrow despite the differences of opinion over it. Every-ones opinion on what they find as enjoyable leisure time activity while playing this mp game is going to differ by varying degrees. Not a single person's opinion on "what's fun for me" is wrong. Comparing game performance issues between old game engine & new game engine, and claiming one is inferior to the other is okay too, when backed up with some pertinent info as it relates to game performance in MP. However, implying that one's preference to one or the other is inferior is not okay. Let's keep this distinction in mind please.
People please. Didn't we have enough of this in the other thread? I want things here from VI that can easily be implemented into MTW2. That's all I want. Certainly no one is more quailified than MizuYuuki . He was legend before I even got here. The Mizu clan has pretty much dissected STW and MTW/VI and put them back together. Put please gentlemen can we just have fixes here. This is sounding to much like congress. Can we please stay on topic. If you want to start a thread why MTW2 is inferior to whatever be my guest.
The author of this thread has made a simple and quite reasonable request. I'm asking that the sniping, name calling, and other soap opera drama stop. Right now.
My prior post has suggestions for improving the game:
1. Improve the network performance.
2. Reduce the cpu requirement.
3. Reduce imbalance to less than 15%.
4. Improve the RPS so that you don't need so many special bonuses.
5. Optimize the morale level so that attrition and maneuver are dynamically balanced.
6. Optimize the fatigue rate to the map size.
7. Make the units more responsive and improve unit cohesion.
8. Reduce the uncertainty in the combat results.
and a few more:
9. Adjust the cost of the units so that each unit is worth what it costs.
10. Remove the battlefield upgrades from multiplayer.
11. Remove the multiple hitpoints from units.
12. Bring back the original ballistic model.
13. Lower the charge speed by the same ratio that running speeds were lowered relative to RTW.
This is much better, without all the unnecessary negative baggage and veering off topic.
I've got some catching up to do reading posts. If I feel the need to pm some of you over any questionable posting etiquette I will at my descretion, though most of you know what your responsibilities are in that regard by now.
If you don't have something you're not allowed to critise.
His critisism is the same as me critisising the Peugeot 1007. Yes I've heard loads about it and that it is bad, but I can't voice my opinion untill I've driven it, can I?
Anyone can voice their opinion on the MTW2 MP game, whether they have it or not. The worth of that opinion to you; is up to you. Take it for what it is worth to you, and leave out the personal animosities. Not a difficult concept really (most were introduced to such inter-personal relationship skills training in kindergarten). It seems some people's perceptions of each other, negative or positive, hinder the flow and direction of threads such as this, and bog it down with personal irrelevant baggage. The PM function is the appropriate "sandbox" for one to discuss:scastle3: one's "personal problems" with another member; not the public forum. As my old drill sergeant used to say, "Remember this material people, you'll be seeing it again."
PutCashIn
06-19-2007, 22:34
I remember the Spectrum ZX81, 1Kb of RAM, no secondary storage, you had to program whatever game you wanted to play.
Things have changed since 1985, doom and quake popularised online gaming, c&c/red alert brought online RTS's to the masses.
Things have changed since then too, now we want to customise our paints scheme, play on international servers with comparitivley (compared to the modems of quake days) low lag, set teams, add AI players, have online stats.
I unfortunatly have to agree with some of the nay-sayers in this post, some somewhat bizzare marketing/coporate decisions to try sell single player focused game were made, strngley enough, things seemd to have been REMOVED from the game....after all that effort coding them up in the first place? have some faith in your creations CA!
But, to say you cant have a decent SP and MP experience from the same game?
I have a small LAN at home, I have watched (since the first amiga500's were connected with a serial cabe and nullmodem) people play, for example, Quake, Quake 2, HL, HL2, FarCry, Baldurs Gate, Freelancer, NWN, Sacred, Soldiers 2, Civ 4, DOW etc etc, all both single and multiplayer games.
Oops, forgot some amiga SP/MP duo examples, uhm, North and South, Stunt Car Racer, SWIV.
You dont need a different EXE, look at DOW.
Anyway, all this is redundant as CA/SEGA are coding the multiplayer into the next iteration as a primary step...so Puzzed can sleep happy knowing all of us that brought the game thinking CA HAD to have noticed the popularity of MP games but ended up getting fleeced into buying a RTW mod (minus half the MP code and options), the rest of us can smile happy in the knowledge that NEXT TIME, someone up stairs at CA/SEGA must realise that to realease two games in a row that fail to keep up with modern multiplayer developments is just a joke.
PutCashIn
06-19-2007, 22:40
P.S (from an anti piracy view, surely its best to have a MP capable game, as its much harder to get online with a copied game than with a brought one...case in point, all the M2TW games on the shelf in the store I work at are just sitting there...$NZ100 for a single player game?....now If that were $NZ100 for a multiplayer game, people would have to buy a copy each, yes?)
Guess what I'm really trying to say is EVEN COMPUTER GEEKS HAVE FRIENDS THESE DAYS!
t1master
06-20-2007, 01:55
It seems some people's perceptions of each other, negative or positive, hinder the flow and direction of threads such as this, and bog it down with personal irrelevant baggage.
this thread and every other thread like the above is basically the same general argument that's been going on here since rtw came out. these threads (long, soap opera drama; any sorta passionate or heated discussion/sticks and stones , poop flinging match) take on pretty much the same mo every time. this mo is not exclusive to the rtw/m2 crowd, and in my observation, and soemtiems shameful participation have roots and precedence in the tw community since day one
before we could take personal pot shots and poke each others eyes with sharpened, burned sticks, then go play the game.
Boy, leave town for a few days and the sleepy MP forum suddenly gets rather hot.
it seems there's not enough playing of the game at hand to warrant even three mp forum sections here, let alone the sharpening and poking with sticks.... :thumbsdown:
Orda Khan
06-20-2007, 10:17
My own opinion is that both lack the balance of STW.
I preferred the pace of VI but since I am fond of HA, M2TW has its appeal by feeling less static. However I still think there are too many things wrong with both. If pushed I suppose I'd say VI because at least back then a 4v4 was actually playable
.....Orda
Swoosh So
06-29-2007, 16:39
Shogun was chess, vi was chequers rome was tiddlywinks and mtw2 musical chairs.
FearofFucyMan
06-29-2007, 20:08
Well, as the old timers know. Stw in the beginning was so laggy, only the host with a fast conection was able to host a 4v4 game. Then after month waiting, CA came out with a patch and it was then a little better to play with, but still with bugs. As Puzz said, the stats in the game was still unbalance.
The same happend with MTW. After months waiting they finaly came out with a new patch (I believe we waited 6 month for that). But still game was unbalance (Spanish Lancers and other units) and buggy (Puzz remmember when you click on your cavs, and then click behind enemy line, the cavs just ran trough enemy and routed the enemy easy, without even fighting with them).
What I am trying to say is that Creative Assembly never was interested to fully fixing the game for the MP player.For them, SP was always more important then the MP.
We always wanted this game to be better, TW games are great games(Except RTW).
I agree with Puzz, but was Puzz should remember that every TW game wich came out, we always had problems with it, and CA never addressed the problems, we ask them to fix it.
http://204.155.67.203/med2/M2TWLauncher/news.php?Mode=Individual&StoryId=25
Words
Remember BI?
They said it would be balanced, yeah every faction had the same units, no that's hard to unbalance. And still they managed to do that with the Horse Archers.
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
06-29-2007, 23:59
We always wanted this game to be better, TW games are great games(Except RTW).
MTW2 is RTW2. I don't think, that they can fix that ;)
Well, as the old timers know. Stw in the beginning was so laggy, only the host with a fast conection was able to host a 4v4 game. Then after month waiting, CA came out with a patch and it was then a little better to play with, but still with bugs. As Puzz said, the stats in the game was still unbalance.
STW v1.0 came out in mid June 2000. A quick v1.01 patch was released to make the game work over AOL which was a popular internet dial-up service at the time. As I recall, the v1.12 patch was released in Sept 2000, and that improved the network performance of 4v4 battles, and also fixed a bug where routing units got a charge bonus which allowed them to get lots of kills on enemy units that they routed through. This had actually become a tactic used by some players where they would purposely rout a unit if it got behind an enemy unit.
I went online Oct 1, 2000 after the v1.12 patch was released, so I never experienced the lag in STW before the v1.12 patch. There didn't appear to be any serious bugs in STW v1.12 MP, but years later when ShingenKrypta and I were running online tests on STW v1.12 for the development of Samurai Wars for MTW/VI, we discovered that the charge bonus for cavalry didn't work. This charge bug is one reasons why heavy cav didn't work very well as a counterunit to warrior monks.
The v1.02 patch to STW/MI (Warlords Edition in the usa) improved the network performance by about 15% over what it had been in STW v1.12. This actually made it more difficult to control all the units because the game sped up by 15%.
The same happend with MTW. After months waiting they finaly came out with a new patch (I believe we waited 6 month for that). But still game was unbalance (Spanish Lancers and other units) and buggy (Puzz remmember when you click on your cavs, and then click behind enemy line, the cavs just ran trough enemy and routed the enemy easy, without even fighting with them).
As I recall, MTW v1.0 was released in Aug 2002, and it had severe network stability problems. This was corrected in the v1.1 patch that was released at the end on Nov 2002. So that would be about 3 months later. Some players left out of frustration during that time, and never came back. The infinite charge bug was fixed much later in the MTW/VI v2.01 patch which came out during the summer of 2003. LongJohn did address balance issues twice in the MTW v1.1 and the MTW/VI 2.0, but two attempts isn't nearly enough to get it right.
RTW v1.0 was released in Sept 2004, and had network stability problems in addition to only allowing 30 players online. The 30 player problem was fixed in the v1.1 patch released a few weeks later. The network stability problems were mostly fixed in the RTW v1.2 patch released in early Feb 2005. So that's about 4 months after the release of the game.
What I am trying to say is that Creative Assembly never was interested to fully fixing the game for the MP player.For them, SP was always more important then the MP.
I don't think they allow enough time in the development schedule for MP. At the same time, they won't drop MP because it generates about 5% additional sales.
I agree with Puzz, but was Puzz should remember that every TW game wich came out, we always had problems with it, and CA never addressed the problems, we ask them to fix it.
Network performance has been problematic in every Total War release, but they did correct it 3 to 4 months after release for every Total War game except M2TW. It doesn't make much sense to spend time on M2TW MP playbalance adjustments if the network performance can't be improved. According to CA the design of the battle engine limits network performance, and in my opinion it also limits the tactical depth that can be achieved compared to the older engine.
MTW2 is RTW2. I don't think, that they can fix that ;)
So not true.
RTW was utter rubbish, you would always win if you had Urbans and Prat Cav. It was so unbalanced that it wasn't fun anymore.
Cav was uber overpowered and far too fast.
MTW2 is far better when looking at that.
Yes it has some flaws, but I'll give you a crate of beer if you give me a flawless game that recently came out.
Swoosh So
06-30-2007, 16:49
The bottom line is totalwar will never be a great muliplayer game as CA are focussed more on the single player game, the only reason people bother with it online is because theres nothing better out there in the genre, i love the totalwar series but the simple fact is other online games are so more fun.
Shogun was a really good game i felt with great balance and maps where the maps really made a difference to the gameplay, i dont see that with the new totalwars, i dont care too much for terrain in my games. As an example the small hump in the middle of the tutomi map in shogun was a major defencive obsticle that had to be overcome - that same size hump in rome would be next to nothing in terms of the battle.
Imo in becoming 3d the battles have actually become more 2d somehow.
All that said its a great single player game but as soon as i logon you lose like 80% the playability, i wouldent even look at it twice online if i hadent been a member of this community since 2001.
The frustrating thing is that its soooo good offline, but when i logon it seems to become a different game where units are unresponsive and battles seems to take on weird shapes IE no battle line troops all over the place with about 20 flanks free, it just feels wrong!
Imo the game has just got worse and worse online just look at the foyer for example the older ones were great a visually appealing foyer that was nice to logon to each night, now this ugly badly designed thing that just feels cheap. Doesent even allow tournament rooms to be setup anymore, the player ladder removed etc etc. We whinged and whinged at ca for an old style foyer and they dident listen :| would it have been so hard to reimpliment? if they cant change a simple thing like the foyer for the fans i wouldent go getting your hopes up for much else.
Still this isent a call for CA to do anything i just dont expect they will do much despite all the discussions and community attempts at interaction which is a shame.
Im happy with it as a single player game and with great mods like the long road i can get quite alot out of my £30, its just a great shame a great online community fell apart because of the degrades in online play.
From what i saw so far shogun was best online mtw1 was second best rome was 3rd best or equal with mtw2, still i feel alot of the problems online could be due to my pc somehow an old 3ghz pentium with 9700 pro graphics card im not sure.
After years and years of seeing online play degrade in the totalwar series i accept it for what it is now a great single player game with mp just tacked on.
blah blah blah just my jumbled thoughs.
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
07-01-2007, 11:18
So not true.
RTW was utter rubbish, you would always win if you had Urbans and Prat Cav. It was so unbalanced that it wasn't fun anymore.
Cav was uber overpowered and far too fast.
MTW2 is far better when looking at that.
Yes it has some flaws, but I'll give you a crate of beer if you give me a flawless game that recently came out.
They have MTW VI. That is really a reference. They doesn't need to compare with other games. MTW VI is unique. And MTW 2 has more than some flaws. One of the most annoying thing are the missing features. My dream is a MTW VI with better graphics and some new tactical features. Better graphics doesn't mean 3D Graphics. It means better textures, better animations AND that the developer don't forget, that it is a BATTLE SIMULATOR with up to 10k Men on field. I don't need good graphics for a single soldier. I need a good graphics if I zoomed out!
Some features would be very nice: Maybe combo attacks or traps. A modifiable battlefield and more modifiable units. Not only armour 1,2,3. Nice would also be, if I could paint on the battlefield some moves to show my team mates my plans. Other game modes like King of the hill or capture the flag. I think there are still so many opportunities to make a very interesting ONLINE game. A RANK system. Clan ranking list, stats like in Battlefield 2. Wounded units, that maybe the general unit can heal. Or you can leave behind the wounded men of the unit. Nice would also if you could merge a 10men unit and a 18 men unit of same type to one unit.
But what have they done. Polished the strange RTW a little. :\
MTW and MTW2 use different engines, you can't compare them
Orda Khan
07-01-2007, 13:39
MTW and MTW2 use different engines, you can't compare them
???
The topic title suggests that people do just that
.......Orda
Well you can't for the simple fact that with RTW CA choose for a different engine, that didn't allow the same things as MTW.
That's why we call it different engine.
Orda Khan
07-01-2007, 21:00
MTW/VI Vs MTW2
Stig,
Above is a copy/paste of the topic title. Forget trying to be snide for a minute, I am well aware of why it is called a different engine.
It seems you choose to be argumentative for some reason only you are aware of
....Orda
MTW and MTW2 use different engines, you can't compare them
There is a certain amount of truth in this - however, what you can compare is the game it self, especially gameplaywise; it is essentially based on the same principles and having the same aim - the engine renders it one way or the other, but the results are comparable as in the overall gameplay impression they provide.
For example focusing on a close perspective visually and ignoring the overall perspective in the graphics - having units that obey without lag to commands - having good internet performance - providing the necessary hardcoded mechanics/parameters for tactical gameplay (for example blobbing penalty - fatigue rates relative to the maps used) are issues that affect the game regardless of the engine used. Of course the design and quality of the engine influences these parameters, and so one can draw his own conclusions as to which suits better the scope of the TW MP game.
Many Thanks
Noir
having units that obey without lag to commands
I actually like that, gives some realism. Men don't directly follow orders, it takes some time, nice realistic imo.
Can be irritating I agree.
It's important to have responsive units so that you can react to a dynamically changing battlefield situation. Also, non-responsive units detract from the ability to coordinate the units.
The order delay only seems to happen on H/VH difficulty so just setting MP difficulty to medium should prevent that.
CeltiberoMordred
07-02-2007, 13:58
The order delay only seems to happen on H/VH difficulty so just setting MP difficulty to medium should prevent that.
MP difficulty is bugged and battles only can be played at "Normal". It's not going to be fixed either. And there's a delay even at normal.
It's realistic but it benefits the attacker and therefore the defender have less time to react. Another advantage for a game that already favours rushes.
Well, about STW i played right from start, i already was hugged playing the demo...
I used a german version at start, the first patch was only english, so i couldnt play online anymore, well.... u needed someone without patch.
LAg was insane, worser than now, it was only play able if u got someone with cable or all had settings lowered massivly....
The problems i see here are, that some try to compare the pure stats. While other compare also feelings.
Its also hard to arque about many things, since some simply never made any experience in STW or MTW.
I really have problems to understand people, who constantly claim that CA/sega forget about the Onlineplay....since it is the "future" ...bla bla
For TW it isnt and never will be! TW has an own market and there are tons of player who dont want to play online. Some simply are too slow to run a clickfest, other have stuff to do and like to have many breaks while playing. Other simply dont like to play battles.... u can add many many more reasons...
Fact is, like 2-3% of the people who bought a TW copy played online or tried it at least once! Fact is that 1,5 million copies are sold, fact is they made some good cash.
Now, tell me, how on earth they can gain a good amount of new Mplayer with this kind of game? I mean, they need to get like 200.000 more to make it a different and worth to put some effort in it.
Yes, u get it, this kind of game isnt made to be a good online game. The system the basic mecanics are not made to pleassure 200.000 or more player.
The only way to attract more or lets say, enought...is to make it more arcae like and this would be something completly different from what most people want.
It doesnt matter, which TW game was best or what u like most, if u love STW, go and play STW, if u love RTW, go play RTW.... this is tiresome!
The current game (only this is supported by CA) is MTW2, play it or play it not, but to compare something is theorycraft and completly useless, apart from giving some old farts some base to repeat their phrases over and over again.
TW will always stay 95% Single player, unless is completly change. U must be ignorant or stupid to think that this battles will ever hugg more than a few hundred/thousend player.
The orginal TW game, which was the best for my liking, was surely the most skilled TW game, u could outplay people by maneuvering and win 1v2 or 1v3, by using the terrain. This kind of game is too complex to attract many player, especially younger people are not interested to "learn" a game, they want to log on, understand the basic and than get into the average phase in a short time.
Exactly this is, what the most successfull games provide, like WC3, SC, egoshooter....
And u can see, that this also understood CA, they dumbed down every version, in the end u had a game with MTW already, which was pretty simple compared to old STW. Inactivity was winning over activity in MTW, u could win by doin nothing.
I made longrun tests with amp, we made turtels and also did put all units in same spot, guess what..... (just in short)
In the end i had a 99:100 winratio in my games, i simply won any CWB or whatever game, it was tiresome since i was used to move quick and a lot.
Its a shame, i did end with moving 1 or 2 spears to tire out enemy units and than just roll it up... MTW was the first big step down the river...
Anyway, i dont expect anything from CA, they move on with what we are used to. I just come here check old guys and whine a bit myself....
Mars
PS: Susi u surely rember some of our epic battles, the CWB 2v2 ...wooot, it was 1v2 and this was almost impossible in MTW or the insane 1v3 played in STW....hell :P
People did fear skill back in STW, today they fear ur setup!
It's important to have responsive units so that you can react to a dynamically changing battlefield situation. Also, non-responsive units detract from the ability to coordinate the units.
:daisy: :daisy: :daisy:
Some simply are too slow to run a clickfest
Oh, pick me, pick me!!!
Go post Mars
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
07-02-2007, 16:41
@Mars
Do you remember, what they said in the developer blogs? "Balanced game, we will be all happy about the MP mode..." ;)
If they are not interested in the MP mode, why did they integrated that mode? In my opinion next TW game shouldn't have any MP part anymore. And they should develop for the XBOX and PS3. They can sell 10 MILLION copies :) They will have alot less complains and only few less fans. And games for console gamers can have ALOT less content. They want only "NEXT GEN" graphics.
@Mars
Do you remember, what they said in the developer blogs? "Balanced game, we will be all happy about the MP mode..." ;)
If they are not interested in the MP mode, why did they integrated that mode? In my opinion next TW game shouldn't have any MP part anymore. And they should develop for the XBOX and PS3. They can sell 10 MILLION copies :) They will have alot less complains and only few less fans. And games for console gamers can have ALOT less content. They want only "NEXT GEN" graphics.
Yes, ofc i remember that, i also remember the famous blog of pala...
U could read there what every Mplayer was dreaming about.
Now lets get it straight. He an ex-Mplayer who exactly know ( at least i assume that) was lieing or in the best case, he was left out and the devs did hold informations back. Whaterver, what he wrote was wrong, the blog did mislead people.
Yes, i agree, TW should have any MPlayer part at all, the few % they will lose are not mentionable. Still, it sounds much better if there is "....online epic multiplayer battle.." on the package.
I remember pretty well, how i wrote a few sides to pala, with many questions, exact questions, my post never made it into his "blog", he simply ignore it.
Exactly this was the point, where i was aware of what we was getting, it was also obvious that he knew most or at least many problems already.
Again, i gonna repeat me, the current lag was 100% known before they games hit the shops! All u did need was 4-6 computer and than test is via GS server.
The game was sold with the knowledge of this major problem, also pala knew it and he still did claim at this time that the game will fit our liking!
His blog isnt up anymore, the last i could read from him, was something like...
"...yes, im involved into CA and i had to realizie how "bussiness" work, i see now the big picture..."
Not the exact words, but it contains the words he used.
Mars
And u can see, that this also understood CA, they dumbed down every version, in the end u had a game with MTW already, which was pretty simple compared to old STW. Inactivity was winning over activity in MTW, u could win by doin nothing.
I made longrun tests with amp, we made turtels and also did put all units in same spot, guess what..... (just in short)
In the end i had a 99:100 winratio in my games, i simply won any CWB or whatever game, it was tiresome since i was used to move quick and a lot.
The fatigue rates in MTW are exactly the same as they are in STW with one exception. The exception is that the fatigue rate for running cavalry is 10% less than it is in STW. This was a suggestion I made to LongJohn to enable cav to pursue routers all the way to the edge of a large map. My original suggestion was to reduce the fatigue rates for all units, but he refused to do that. The problem with fatigue in MTW is that the maps got larger.
The battle engine in MTW is actually superior to the battle engine in STW, and you can recreate the gameplay of STW very well with the MTW engine. It's done by adjusting the parameters in MTW for better balance. The only things wrong with MTW/VI v2.01 are that the parameters are not adjusted as well as they could have been, and the discount on upgrades for ranged units is misguided. The specific request made was for more effective ranged weapons, but LongJohn implimented the discounts instead.
There is no way you can recreate the gameplay of STW with either the RTW or M2TW engines. These engines are inferior in their ability to create the depth of tactics and robust statistical modeling of the STW/MTW engine.
I think multiplayer participation would have continued to grow if all the features of the old STW/MTW battle engines had been retained and improved upon in the new RTW/M2TW engines, and if the network performance had been maintained. You can see this trend with the increase of something like a factor of 2x in multiplayer participation from STW to MTW.
possible puzz. I always was more a player who did trust his feeling.
While in STW i could easy outmaneuver people and flank pretty nice,
in MTW, i did end (vs good player) with some simply "tricks", i used it only in important games to avoid people make it a generall tactic.
The tactic ensured me an insane winratio, i did beat the elite in CWB 1v2 twice up and downhill. Most people considered it impossible to win 1v2 as mostly u just lost coz fatique to the second guy.
Anyway, using the different types ( elite and normal) move a spearunit with 2 rows in front of ur 4-5 elite in center and ensure, that the enemy fight exactly this unit. Its determind by the use of units and how people move.
The good guys ordered any unit and the less good guys just clicked behind, whatever u did, u run into the spear, the cheapest one ofc... u can imagin what happend, i stand compact and tired the enemy elite by sacre my useless spear.
2 row spears i used mostly 2 units and it worked perfectly, i also could close a whole side on flat maps in 1v1.... stupid mecanics.
The problem was that with time u lost fatique and that the moralsetting was crap in MTW, it was very hard to rout enemy player. So u had to wait to get 2 bars down, what made ur units shaky as well.
U can surely mod anything with that engin, but majority play with CA version online mostly.
And again, pure number of player.... the record i personal saw was as i hold my tourney, 326 on peak. We should get real, u need 50.000 or 100.000 player to make a it interesting for online play.
Even with a factor of 2x we could end with maybe 1000 or 2000 player online.
I dunno at what point it would become interesting for CA/SEGA, but even 5000 would be too less.
You, me and some other guys have the patience and the lust to learn a game and improve by playing it, we also can accept and even love that, that it takes a lot of time to get better and better. Find new tacs, try out stuff, work on different styles....
Sadly the majorty of the possible online player are not like this, i already wrote it some pots up.... Majority player like to buy a game and get to an average skillvl in a very short time.
While in STW, people came online and was rolled for some weeks, it took ages for new people to get to a certain skilllvl to at least not get spanked in a min or two. Most young player dont like this, but this is the majority. CA is aware of this fact and they did adjust their game.
Mars
The new engine was introduced to take full advantage of 3D.
Millions like it, Puzz3D doesn't like it.
It's a hard choice for CA, hard indeed.
TW's future isn't in the MP business, you can see that when you look at the amount of players. Most people can't be bothered with MP anyway, they prefer the campaign.
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
07-03-2007, 15:14
And again, pure number of player.... the record i personal saw was as i hold my tourney, 326 on peak. We should get real, u need 50.000 or 100.000 player to make a it interesting for online play.
Even with a factor of 2x we could end with maybe 1000 or 2000 player online.
I dunno at what point it would become interesting for CA/SEGA, but even 5000 would be too less.
But there was never a try to motivate 50k players. They never supported the MP mode right. 50000 players will play the game online only, if it is worth to get played. WC3, Starcraft ... strategy games, that massive played online, because they are supported and interesting. Look at the MTW2 lobby. No features, lags, inbalance... Sure, that nobody is interested in playing that game. And STW and MTW 1 came out in a time, where MP was not so popular.
You simply are not going to improve something if you don't know for sure would it give you any profit or not.
They can put millions into making a good and stable lobby, but if the same 1000 players keep playing MP, why bother?
There must be an indication that the MP crowd is growing, otherwise it's not profitable.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-03-2007, 16:51
Well you can't for the simple fact that with RTW CA choose for a different engine, that didn't allow the same things as MTW.
That's why we call it different engine.
then why is everyone posting here then?
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
07-03-2007, 17:07
You simply are not going to improve something if you don't know for sure would it give you any profit or not.
They can put millions into making a good and stable lobby, but if the same 1000 players keep playing MP, why bother?
There must be an indication that the MP crowd is growing, otherwise it's not profitable.
You cannot make profit with nothing. You need a good product to make profit. If you don't care for it e.g. MTW2 MP, you will not get new customers. And the MTW2 MP exists only because a marketing boss said, "I want that we can write MP on the DVD case!"
Really interesting would be the compare RTW vs MTW2 MP
Millions like it, Puzz3D doesn't like it.
but if the same 1000 players keep playing MP
Is it millions or 1,000?
Is it millions or 1,000?
Je weet heel goed wat ik bedoel
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-04-2007, 03:20
Je weet heel goed wat ik bedoel
and how about you translate that into English?:yes:
You simply are not going to improve something if you don't know for sure would it give you any profit or not.
They can put millions into making a good and stable lobby, but if the same 1000 players keep playing MP, why bother?
There must be an indication that the MP crowd is growing, otherwise it's not profitable.
Exactly! I repeat it again.
This game simply doesnt have the drive to make 50.000 player or more playing it online! This game isnt designed for this task!
They dumbed it down every version and still it is too complex to play the battles online and also on the other hand, it isnt enought to make it interesting to play.
People like different stuff.
TW is in his basics the same game like it was 7 years ago, while other games improved in style, ideas and fun, the TW kind of games kept same, the only thing what got imrpoved is grafix. But today every company did understand that longtime fun isnt based on grafix only.
Mars
Edit:
It is so tiresome to see the people repeat the same phrases over and over again. CA does the best they can do from a bussiness POV. MP never ever will give them enought player to make it worth to invest a lot of time and cash!
And how many realyl care here? 10 or 20?
How many did vote that they even tried the online game?
I mean, concerning ur understanding, there should be a lot more who at least tried the game once.
U see the point?
Orda Khan
07-04-2007, 09:46
Kocmoc,
You have raised some very valid points and I think everyone would agree with the sentiment, MP never has been a major concern or part of the TW series. Still there is no getting away from the fact that MP has deteriorated and I think all that anyone wanted was for it to at least remain constant. Certain things have been dumbed down as you say and whereas CA may not think it worthwhile investing too much into MP, on the same note, why would they make it worse?
I see your point about the 10 or 20 players but I am sure there are many more who do not even visit these boards, just as it is with SP
.....Orda
and how about you translate that into English?:yes:
Nope Tosa is supposed to be Dutch, so if this was the Tosa he can understand it.
Nope Tosa is supposed to be Dutch, so if this was the Tosa he can understand it.
I think it's the MP forum and the topic is MTW/VI Vs MTW2?
I repeat the question: Is it millions or 1,000?
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-04-2007, 15:20
I think it's the MP forum and the topic is MTW/VI Vs MTW2?
I repeat the question: Is it millions or 1,000?
I say 1,000?
Hosakawa Tito
07-04-2007, 16:00
Nope Tosa is supposed to be Dutch, so if this was the Tosa he can understand it.
But the rest of us who do not speak or understand Dutch cannot comprehend what you posted, your friendly neighborhood MP forum moderator included. That is a rude attitude to take in a forum peopled with multi-national participants with different language skills. Especially when someone asks for clarification. What's the big secret?
None, let Tosa read my posts.
I speak of a million people playing MTW2 and 1000 MP.
That was clear, and that wasn't the same Tosa as the on posting in the TYOLT
Hosakawa Tito
07-04-2007, 16:24
Ahhh, no secrets then. You just choose to be rude to the rest of us. Hopefully, after I translate this, I won't find anything objectionable enough to break forum rules.
What in my Dutch post? I simply told him he knew very well what I meant (unless he didn't read my posts)
Orda Khan
07-04-2007, 16:49
Mae Hosakawa Tito wedi gofyn i chi i siarad yn saesneg er mewn i bawb cael ddeall. Pam cario ymlaen yn y ffordd yma?
New forum rules.....let's all speak our mother tongue!!
Hosakawa Tito
07-04-2007, 17:10
What in my Dutch post? I simply told him he knew very well what I meant (unless he didn't read my posts)
Thank you, that's all I asked for so I can moderate this forum. I don't know if Tosa read your last post or not.
@ Orda Khan - Thanks to my handy dandy Welsh to English translation website (I took an educated guess it was Welsh and got lucky)
He is being Hosakawa Tito has asked I you I speak English for in I bawb have understand. Why carry on crookedly the way here?:laugh4: :laugh4:
New forum rules.....let's all speak our mother tongue!!
Maybe we should institute a "Native Language Only" day once a week.:gathering:
I suggest a babelfish only week, everything you post must have been translated by babelfish
Orda Khan
07-04-2007, 17:27
:inquisitive: :laugh4: :laugh4:
That Welsh to english translater could do with some work, though in fairness it does not always translate literally. It was close enough :thumbsup:
........Orda
...You have raised some very valid points and I think everyone would agree with the sentiment, MP never has been a major concern or part of the TW series. Still there is no getting away from the fact that MP has deteriorated and I think all that anyone wanted was for it to at least remain constant. Certain things have been dumbed down as you say and whereas CA may not think it worthwhile investing too much into MP, on the same note, why would they make it worse?
I see your point about the 10 or 20 players but I am sure there are many more who do not even visit these boards, just as it is with SP
.....Orda
Well, ...why would they make it worse?...
It is really easy to answer that. Back in STW, weere most oldtimer agree about, the skillvl was highest. U did need much time and many games to get to a good skilllvl.
Im pretty sure, that the STW game was pure luck, that it turned out like it was these days. It was obvious at the xmas party from CA, where 3 CA devs played vs AMP, mag and Koc. The devs got rolled so bad, that it was seen they have no clue whats goin on.
From that day on, i did know, that they are not aware of what their engin and game is capable of.
What i try to say is, they had different ideas abotu their game than we Mplayer. Im pretty sure, that many times they spoke with the betateam or mizugang, they didnt understand the whole message.
This leads to the idea, to create a game where the average player, thats what a CA-dev is, get easy used to the game and can win some games.
Their intentions was good and even smart at some point, they tried to make what we want.... a MPlayer part of the game which attract more player.
And ofc the different TW versions got more player at some point.
There were some votes goin on at org and other sites, so u can still see the outcome. There are like 2-3% of all who voted who did try the online play.
This is my mainconcern here.
Ofc, org is much more frequented by Splayer, so maybe a Mplayer portal would gather different votings...
Anyway, lets try something different.
Lets assume, we had a much better server, something stable liek we had with EA. We would get a quick patch after 1 month and than more patched which really work out bugs.
further lets assume, there never would be lag, there wouldnt be some silly SSE2 stuff. U could run it on less good computer.
The lobby would be insane good, there were tourneys every weekend
and we had some good working ladders.
And now with kinda a perfect game from the POV of people who visit this board, how many people u think would play the TW game online?
2000 or 5000?
Lets go even further, u could go and split the online battles from the original game and make it free for download and playable for everyone. Im sure u could imagin some other stuff to make the game avalaible for more player who like to play online.
Now again? How many u think?
We should sort out some basics imo. While i see people who liek to have "more" people playing it online, noone really clear out, how many are ment.
CA would away at like 50.000 player who play online, maybe even 25.000, but it would get interesting at 50k.
While player here would freak out with 5000 already.
Anyway, CA could do a lot more. The game could be much better.
without a question, but people here tend to see things out the proportion.
Mars
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
07-05-2007, 13:30
We should sort out some basics imo. While i see people who liek to have "more" people playing it online, noone really clear out, how many are ment.
CA would away at like 50.000 player who play online, maybe even 25.000, but it would get interesting at 50k.
While player here would freak out with 5000 already.
Anyway, CA could do a lot more. The game could be much better.
without a question, but people here tend to see things out the proportion.
Mars
For every problem is a solution. I would create many lobbies and a global chat system. The lobbies doesn't have to be static. There should be some lobbys with static size e.g. for 1000 players and customable lobbies for vets and people who know each other already. You can invite other to join this lobby. I think there are possibilities to avoid, that 10000 people are in one lobby ;) "Admins" of that custom lobby can manage the members of the lobby.
In my opinion, if they would create a new MP with new game modes, a ladder, statistic, clan system, a good chat system, balanced battles, an engine that also works on MID RANGE PCs, they could get new customers, that played Warcraft3 or Starcraft before. Very important would be a ladder system and different unique award. Or virtual money(florins) for the clans. I would take a look on MMORGs, on the EA Battlefield serie and other successful games. It is not only the game itself, why the people play the games. It is, that they can play together and the point/award system, why the people play the online games. They want awards and ranks. If you meet a LVL 50 character in LOTRO, you think wow, I wanna be also in that position. I must play more. :P And I need good team m8s to grow and become better. MTW is a team game already, but CA has to extend it a lot, as they never tried. The game is unique. I don't see a reason, why it should be a big success online.
Only some polls in a forum don't show the real potential. They have never really created a really good system, that animate masses to play.
Originally posted by Mars
Im pretty sure, that the STW game was pure luck, that it turned out like it was these days. It was obvious at the xmas party from CA, where 3 CA devs played vs AMP, mag and Koc. The devs got rolled so bad, that it was seen they have no clue whats goin on.
It may be true that top community players would be able to explore the depths a game has to offer but to say that a developer is coming up with it randomly sounds incorect.
People specialise in doing this or that however not practically doing one thing (playing) doesn't prevent understanding of a situation without being able to practically respond to it. Great coaches don't play necesarily as good as their players - great designers usually have nil manual/practical skills and are terrible builders.
The fact that CA staff lost to some of the best players of the community does not make them necessarily ignorant or lacking judgement in what design aspects/parameters may render a game deep or not.
I agree with you that a developer cannot fully explore the potentials of its creation which is why people are required giving feedback and helping out in those departments in a more detailed manner - Palamedes is a recent example. However saying that they came up with what they came up by pure luck sounds a bit wrong to me. Even the way they degraded the game if you want was done systematically and to the points that would make the game more succesful commercially to the SP people while maintaining the initial shell. I am pretty sure that they very well know what they are doing - perhaps not in the details - but in the broad picture.
Many Thanks
Noir
Im pretty sure, that the STW game was pure luck, that it turned out like it was these days.
STW/MTW has a well designed battle engine with a statistically robust mathematical model. STW has the better playbalance because it has fewer unit types, and all factions have the same unit set. The STW gameplay may well have exceeded expectations, but I don't think it was the result of luck. LongJohn did a great job designing the STW battle engine and playbalancing the STW battles. He wasn't with CA when they made the Mongol Invasion add-on for STW, and you remember how bad the STW/MI multiplayer gameplay was. The engine was exactly the same, but the new units were not balanced and the morale level was too high.
MTW is a team game already, but CA has to extend it a lot, as they never tried.
There may still is the issue of synchronising it, but the ingredients for a totally different teamgame are there (there have been discussions about this before). 64v64 teamgames are not an impossibility, I recall having seen 128v128. MMORPG allow even larger, but that's a different ballgame I think (number of players per map is what matters).
This mode would/could use the general view camera (but why make that a hardcoded limitation, unrestricted camera will be the way to go for others) and each unit is controlled by one player. Instead of a 3vs3 where each player has to control 20 units, a 64V64 could be played and each has only 1 unit (or a more down to earth 10vs10 and each having 6 units; either miniarmy of 6 per player or queued, hosts choice).
You can have a one unit only, meaning a harsh waiting if you lose it (other games have such modes too), or allow some sort of reinforcement/respawn mode (other games have that too). More options within basically the same game, allows the player to play that what he/she likes and draws more customers.
There would still be a large scale battle, but the accent would be even more on teamcoordination and even less on individual skills. Some would like that, others won't. But more options will mean there's something in it for many.
Orda Khan
07-06-2007, 14:50
Very true.
The ability to have large scale battles has always been the attraction for me and I have no real worry about the state of unit balance or a slight delay in commands reaching units, etc, etc. Above all else is the ability to get this game to run smoothly regardless of the numbers
....Orda
Swoosh So
07-06-2007, 20:02
Sigh the days of turning a battle round like my favourate battle ever in the online campaign v elites attacking bungo map are gone for totalwar, i agree with comments of we just want the same level of multiplayer as before.
Btw shogun looks better than mtw2 at times when your zoomed out as most muliplayers are :\
Shogun was an amazing game like chess and for the sake of the thread yes vi is 10x better than mtw2 online.
Btw shogun looks better than mtw2 at times when your zoomed out as most muliplayers are
I hope you don't mean better in the sense of graphics, but clearity.
Actually seeing where every unit is, as that is what MTW2 lacks ... luckely we have that nice button so when can highlight units.
Swoosh So
07-07-2007, 15:21
ofc
tibilicus
07-08-2007, 01:08
Shall I tell you whats annoyed me personally. The taking of "sides" earlier in this thread.
Drop the arguments for one thread!
Puzz can say what he pleases, it's freedom of speech, I personally don't agree with him but it's his opinion and I'm not going to try and cover that up.
Then there's people taking there sides just for the sake of good points if you may. Warman, Puzz does not need you to defend him, there's a certain way if you like to show weather you agree with some one or not, and that's in an orderly manner.
"MizuYuuki has earned the right to criticise as he's one of the most respected Mutliplayer in the community"
That's a bit irrelevant really. Just because he has been here longer doesn't mean he's superior to any one else. It's like me saying im richer than you so i can go around taking free stock from shops but you have to pay double the price as you don't earn as much money .
Sorry to intrude the thread but once again on topic people and lets drop the whole hostile business. Every man to his own and as always opinions are welcome and same for the healthy debate, flaming and posting personal vendettas are not.
I'm saying this as this forum is quiet as so many threads have ended recently because people have got bored of these sort of petty arguments. Lets make this forum what it could be please.
~:)
Tibilicus
FearofFucyMan
07-10-2007, 13:21
Is Mars Kocmo?
Warmaster Horus
07-10-2007, 13:27
Eh? Who's Kocmo? What's that got to do with the discussion?
Eh? Who's Kocmo? What's that got to do with the discussion?
These are so called veterans (they say so themselves), they are better than us, and will only respect you if you're a veteran ~D
CeltiberoMordred
07-10-2007, 14:15
Is Mars Kocmo?
Yes, he is Kocmoc.
Togakure
07-10-2007, 14:22
@Fucy: Based on observing his linguistic patterns over some time, and the poignancy of what he has to say, I believe Mars is Kocmoc.
@Husar: Kocmoc has been around since the beginning, and like Puzz3D, has invested a lot of time playing, studying--and to the benefit of the community--sharing his astute thoughts about TW games and how to play them well. He also walks his talk. He was a tester for Shogun, and was often found on the virtual battlefield playing as MagyarKhan's "wingmate."
I think he's more than earned an elevated level of respect. His opinion is valid in any discussion concerning TW games. Thus, his identity is pertinent to this discussion.
@Stig: It wouldn't matter if you were a "vet" or not. There are plenty of veteran players/community members who merit little respect because of the way they conduct themselves publicly. The same applies to you. The fact that you are not particularly respected has little to do with the relatively short time you've been around, and your limited breadth of TW experience. You have demonstrated little reason for anyone to accord you more than basic courtesy--the opposite, in fact.
Stay tuned folks, for the inevitable adolescent retort .... *smiles sardonically*
CeltiberoMordred
07-10-2007, 14:26
These are so called veterans (they say so themselves), they are better than us, and will only respect you if you're a veteran ~D
We are players that have been playing thousands battles against other humans, discussing and chatting together for seven years, and the most involved with the multiplayer part of the saga, trying for a long time to help the developers to make Total War a better game. We aren't better but more experienced. That's all.
We respect you. Do you respect us?
We respect you. Do you respect us?
That depends on it, if you can discuss normally (as in here, and yes even with Puzz) yes ... if you get kicked from a game because people think your not good enough because you're not in a clan, no.
Stay tuned folks, for the inevitable adolescent retort
If only I still were an adolescent, no?
Togakure
07-10-2007, 14:54
Perceptions of character extend beyond the foyer and the virtual battlefield, Stig. How you conduct yourself here and on other forums is observed and considered when your identity becomes known in game. Players who have been around for a long time have had to weather the attitudes and behaviors of so many younglings, and it gets tiresome. Sometimes it's nice to have focused games with solid players, without all the drama, inexperience (written without contempt), and attitude.
I behaved like a youngling too at first, and experienced the same frosty treatment. I then realized that "veteran" players and clans represented a valuable resource which could be tapped--if I played my cards right. I humbled myself, befriended them, and soon I had experienced players spending time working with me, teaching me, and eventually, wanting to team up with me. I made some great friends in the process too, many of whom I disliked at first, because I wasn't letting go of my petty jealousy and belief that I was just as good as them. I wasn't, but I am much better now ....
True true, but I don't want to play that often. I want to log in, play a quick game (hoping there's no bloody Nat Negotiation problem) and log out again. At max I play 1 game a week, with luck 2.
You can't expect me to get to know the people if all the TW forums I visit are this one, .com and Ugli ... not really the forums other people tend to visit.
Sides I'm not in the clanscene (and never want to be), so that doesn't really help me either.
Based on observing his linguistic patterns over some time, and the poignancy of what he has to say, I believe Mars is Kocmoc.
Yes, Mars definitely speaks the "kocmoc english" dialect, with spelling like "liek" for "like" etc. ;)
Togakure
07-10-2007, 15:49
It's true that I did spend quite a bit of time playing at first, which accelerated both my learning and acceptance in the community. As I mentioned, the key for me was finding people who were talented and willing to work with me. I wasn't in a clan. There was an Org member here, now a moderator, who helped a lot ( :bow: to Sasaki). I also got to know some in Aggony ( :bow: to Anskar, Betou, Shimmie, Kas), Shinkage ( :bow: to Gaijin) and one of the Wolves ( :bow: to Kansuke). They didn't care that I wasn't in their clans--but they did care about how I conducted and applied myself. When I adjusted, they not only played much more often with me, but took me aside, shared tactics and strategies, and played many 1v1s and 2v2s with me specifically to demonstrate and practice.
You can still do this, even though you don't play as often. It will just take a bit longer.
The most addicting and satisfying element of MP was finding the right team mates in 2v2, 3v3, and in MTW-VI, 4v4 games. I have never felt "higher" online than when I was working with players I knew so well that we rarely felt the need to communicate--no mind. Our armies flowed across the map, herding our opponents into a corner, or drew them in and enveloped them. Against similar teams, we were surprised again and again, and had to improvise, adapt, overcome. These kinds of games are what "experienced" team players crave. To reach this fleeting state, it requires an investment in time, study, practice, and especially, in people. People is what MP is all about!
Forgive my presumptuousness, but I encourage you to find a player or two or three that you both respect and enjoy--who are a lot "better" than you--and befriend them. Play with them when you can, and study both game mechanics and field dynamics. With diligence, you might experience the "two or three or four as one" game consistently, and I'd be willing to bet that over time it might change how you view TW games, and TW players. You may find that your current stance on what you will and won't do, and what you do and don't like, will likewise change. It sure did for me.
Swoosh So
07-10-2007, 19:45
Lol stiq you made more posts than i have in 6 years as a member here in your 1 year, is it any wonder you get to play 1-2 games a week.
"These are so called veterans (they say so themselves), they are better than us, and will only respect you if you're a veteran "
People have been saying this stuff for years usually the case of a newcomer trying to make a name for themselves.
Anyways hehe yes took me a few posts to realise it was kocy ;) can always tell by lots of !!!
Dunno if kocy would be happy described as magyars wingman :D
Magyarkhan: You can be my wingman any time.
Kocmoc: Bullshit! You can be mine.
Swoosh So
07-10-2007, 20:04
Back on topic i think the fact that most of the community left and havent returned after vi shows the old games were better, at least in my eyes.
Lol stiq you made more posts than i have in 6 years as a member here in your 1 year, is it any wonder you get to play 1-2 games a week.
Heheh, but my posts only take 10 secs to write ~D
Sides while viewing this forum I can talk to my friends on msn, watch videos on Youtube and work for study ... pitely the game goes too fast to do that at the same time (would be great if you would have a slow pased TW to play in desktop tho).
Back on topic i think the fact that most of the community left and havent returned after vi shows the old games were better, at least in my eyes.
Could be, or it's the fact that those people liked those games more, and the new people like the new game more (tho I must say, if you think RTW and MTW2 are masterpieces there's something wrong with ya ~D )
Or the simple fact that those people stopped playing video game.
Swoosh So
07-10-2007, 20:48
Actually most of those players are still on my msn and migrated to 1 wow guild, the majority 90% are waiting for a decent totalwar or totalwar like game.
Wolf_Kyolic
07-10-2007, 21:10
WoW does not lag. :)
Gawain of Orkeny
07-10-2007, 22:33
Could be, or it's the fact that those people liked those games more, and the new people like the new game more
ell have the new guys played the old ones? I doubt it. I play MTW2 now not because its better than VI but because its where the action is. If you had played as long as us(and Im not here as long as many) you would know that indeed there are many things that have gone down hill instead of getting better.No one claims to better than anyone but they do have more experience. It took me 3 days to realise that RTW was crap. Two years of waiting and expectations down the drain. Its a wonder so many came back to give MTW2 a try. Unfortunately most still found it so wanting they dont play. I can look past its short comings however and enjoy it for what it is.
I probably would have enjoyed RTW as well if given time. I just couldnt stand it.
Believe me, you wouldn't have enjoyed RTW ~D
Togakure
07-10-2007, 23:14
... Dunno if kocy would be happy described as magyars wingman :D
Magyarkhan: You can be my wingman any time.
Kocmoc: Bullshit! You can be mine.
~:) Hehe. No disrespect intended--hence the term "wing mates." I saw Shogun replays a long time ago that illustrated them working together, and they were real eye-openers.
OMG maybe the title of this thread should be renamed - past players of TW appreciation thread, where we can sit around gushing about veteran players of TW. What its relevance is in a M2TW forum - Ill be damned if I can figure since most dont even play the game and some dont even own it. Heres an idea lets start a threat bestowing the virtues of past TW titles and cr@pping on the the SIMS over at the SIMS forum - because it would be as relevant, and then we could all read the same drivel thats been posted for the past 6 years - one more time :balloon2:
All Ive seen so far is whole lot of people who used to play TW bullying and trolling people who are playing this game and calling them 'dumbed down' cause they like the game. Heres an idea rename the entire forum Medieval total war HATERS > multi-nonplayer > Told you so Field > Vetran appreciation thread.
Cause if what Ive read on here qualifys you as being respected in this forum - then Im glad Im not one.
and Gawain you were pretty quick to tell me to get back on topic in another thread - seems like its ok to hijack your threads as long as you agree with what the person is saying, or they are a vet buddy of yours cause this thread has been well and truley de-railed some pages ago. For a moment I thought this thread was about M2TW, I guess I was mistakenly thinking I was in a M2TW forum.
The 'VETS' are a ball and chain around the community of this game and they should :daisy: off
Togakure
07-11-2007, 07:13
I'm just as tired of your broken record drivel and inflexible, venomous attitude, Yun al whatever. Your point is different, but your methods are the same as those you criticize. You accuse others of "trolling" (again and again and again ... just like those who state their positions on these games again and again and again), when your behavior is no better. This is the pot calling the kettle black, hypocrisy at its finest. This doesn't merit respect, and obviously, provokes some to drop any pretenses of courtesy as well.
I for one still do play TW games, regularly. Not only have I invested a trifle of money and a huge amount of time in them personally, I have persuaded a number of others to try them also. And they have inspired others. I monitor these threads to gather information about the new game, which helps me to decide whether it's time to check it out, or not. So far, not so good. The newer folks who advocate M2TW have made a shallow argument in its favor. The opinions of those whom I've come to know, who've spent years playing and studying and playing and modifying and playing and communicating, carry a lot more weight than those who've come into the scene recently. The reason should be obvious, even to the denser craniums around here. This has nothing to do with petty distinctions like "vet" or not.
I appreciate the thoughtful input of all the players--experienced or not--who've graciously posted in this and similar threads.
People go off on tangents. They come back. This is a common occurence in face-to-face conversations, and of course it happens on discussion boards. Surely something more substantial is worth bitching about? This reminds me of the women in my family arguing, grabbing at every little thing they can to try and get under each others' skin, disrupting the entire family over something pointless. Bah.
The experienced players here are the heart and soul of this community. If you don't like it, there are other communities--off with you and don't let the door smack you on the way out. The majority of new players will quickly tire of the shallow game play and their inability to achieve significant skill or friendships, and flit off to another game in search of their quick fix. We've seen it before, again and again. Some of us have enjoyed TW games and care enough about the future of TW games to offer our honest opinions about it. Yep, sometimes we wax reflective and reminisce in these threads. So what? Do some feel left out? Do some feel insignificant? Awwww. It's unfortunate that some are so linear in their thinking that they cannot see how these "off topic" comments do indeed relate to the topic, but not in a simplistic, straighforward way.
Meh, enough. It's been a while since someone here managed to spark a little ire. Time to retire, before I get warmed up.
Oyasumi nasai. :bow: (effectively, "good night" in Japanese)
You know you absolutely right
for a moment I thought this was forum for Fans of the M2TW game
clearly as I own the game and play it online that is why I 'hang out here'
I was mistaken - thankyou for making that clear
I will go and frequent forums thats are not ANTI M2TW
although CA should really be made aware of this because I would hate to think of new players and members of the community being directed here and leaving because of the 'attitude' exhibited in this forum.
Im sure I dont need to remind you that STW and MTW have their own entire forums for fans of those games to comment and commenorate in
bye
|Heerbann|_Di3Hard
07-11-2007, 09:43
You know you absolutely right
for a moment I thought this was forum for Fans of the M2TW game
clearly as I own the game and play it online that is why I 'hang out here'
I was mistaken - thankyou for making that clear
I will go and frequent forums thats are not ANTI M2TW
although CA should really be made aware of this because I would hate to think of new players and members of the community being directed here and leaving because of the 'attitude' exhibited in this forum.
Im sure I dont need to remind you that STW and MTW have their own entire forums for fans of those games to comment and commenorate in
bye
This is a Total War forum. And here are Total War Fans. I wish I could say, that I am a M2TW Fan, but there are no reasons why I should it be. It is important to watch at the features and not to love a brand. And that the complains are repeated again and again, is because the patches, that CA releases, don't fix the problems. And there are some forum poster here, that play once a week ( :smash: in my best times, I played 5 hours per day weekdays mtw vi :) ) and they attack the "Vets" and defend MTW2 without understandable reasons.
Here is nobody who wants to "hate" MTW2, but there must be reasons, why some of the long term players don't like it.
Warmaster Horus
07-11-2007, 09:59
Surely you can't say Puzz wants to like M2, at least in its current state.
Surely you can't say Puzz wants to like M2, at least in its current state.
I'll buy it and play it when Creative Assembly brings the standard of play up to what it was with the old battle engine. In the meantime, I think people should know that the battle engine is not up to the previous standard.
NagaoKagetora
07-11-2007, 13:17
Actually most of those players are still on my msn and migrated to 1 wow guild, the majority 90% are waiting for a decent totalwar or totalwar like game.
Damn its been a long wait this far.
Last time I played a TW game online was RTW at release. Funnily enough it was against you Swoosh :beam: You either hammered me so bad or I was so disgusted with the game that I haven't been back since...
Gawain of Orkeny
07-11-2007, 15:46
and Gawain you were pretty quick to tell me to get back on topic in another thread - seems like its ok to hijack your threads as long as you agree with what the person is saying, or they are a vet buddy of yours cause this thread has been well and truley de-railed some pages ago. For a moment I thought this thread was about M2TW, I guess I was mistakenly thinking I was in a M2TW forum.
Look Im stating my opinion. I asked that people not bash MTW2 and I have not done so. I play it everyday. I enjoy it. But im not going to lie to myself and others and say its the best thing since sliced bread. And it looks to me as if most here are discussing MTW2. And as has been said this is a TW forum. All any of us want is the best game possible.
All any of us want is the best game possible.
M2TW is the best that Creative Assembly can make under the current circumstances.
Gawain of Orkeny
07-11-2007, 16:26
I doubt that.
Orda Khan
07-11-2007, 16:33
so many name changes......:dizzy2:
I agree with Gawain, if you play it for what it is you can still have fun.....that is provided others do the same. Unfortunately there are always going to be those who exploit flaws. This would not be so bad if the server was stable and we did not have the constant problems. Trying to replicate the kind of battles we enjoyed in old 4v4 games is not going to happen. Before we can do anything, we need a decent server and lobby, sadly, this too has deteriorated over the years. There is criticism of M2TW and it is quite understandable why there is
.....Orda
Jochi Khan
07-11-2007, 17:27
True true, but I don't want to play that often. I want to log in, play a quick game (hoping there's no bloody Nat Negotiation problem) and log out again. At max I play 1 game a week, with luck 2.
You can't expect me to get to know the people if all the TW forums I visit are this one, .com and Ugli ... not really the forums other people tend to visit.
Sides I'm not in the clanscene (and never want to be), so that doesn't really help me either.
With a post like this I wonder why you even bothered to buy the game.
It appears you don't even want to make friends with anyone in the community.
These are so called veterans (they say so themselves), they are better than us, and will only respect you if you're a veteran
There are veterans, there are regulars and there are newcomers. It is a fact of life that you will get this in all walks of life. To say that the 'vets' say they are better than others and have no respect for you is a load of rubbish.
I still remember when I started playing, how the 'older players' had the time and patience to assist me with learning how to play the game/s. Yes. I have played STW, MTW, MTW/VI, RTW, RTW/BI and now play M2TW. I have seen how the Lobby has deteriated along with the games.
if you play it for what it is you can still have fun.....that is provided others do the same. Unfortunately there are always going to be those who exploit flaws.
Very true. ^^
I have also spent time assisting newcomers to the game in M2TW MP. It is one way of ensuring that they will at least have a chance to enjoy playing and not 'go away' disheartened. That is what builds a community not this 'I can't be bothered' attitude.
It appears you don't even want to make friends with anyone in the community.
Do I need to?
Sides I know enough people with who I can play a proper game, problem is they are just as inactive as me.
t1master
07-12-2007, 01:29
the game's more fun and interesting if you know the folks you're playing with. and can get a nice level of chatter going. the heady days of shogun and mtw were more enjoyable imo, because the core group had been together for a long time, and the personalities were unique and varied. the authors put a lot of effort into the roles that were created. aside from the better mechanics, the game was more enjoyable because of sense of friendship and even rivalries.
Gawain of Orkeny
07-12-2007, 04:38
because the core group had been together for a long time, and the personalities were unique and varied. the authors put a lot of effort into the roles that were created. aside from the better mechanics, the game was more enjoyable because of sense of friendship and even rivalries.
And do you remember the air of Chivalry and honor that was a given? It was amazing. Each clan seemed to have its own personality. You miss behaved you were locked out of games and put on ignore. There will never be a time like that again Im afraid weve had our little Camelot here. It was great to be a part of it.
Well, many oldtimer here or how some like to say "vets".
This isnt about who is better, at least i hope so, some people know how we did play and what we did, but thats past and i rather look at the current game and the future.
Someone said, he play where the action is, yes thats right. Even i did like STW more than mtw, we did move to mtw, since there was the majority.
Like i said, i tested any of the games, allthough i cant say much about the current "teamspirit". So i dunno how clans get people invited. Again here comes the ladder in...
In MTW u could already notice, that there were tons of "closed" games, new people had a real hard time to get into the inner circle. This ofc make many new people leave, since they couldnt learn anything.
With a ladder u had always good or average player looking for new and easy kills, this gave em rating but also the new player learnt a lot by losing.
If 2 new player play each other, the learning curve is a lot slower than if a new player play vs a good player.
Back in STW/MI i had "traincamps" at weekends to show real new player some basics. There were always many ready and we trained some easy movements and also i did show em the mecanics of the game, this lead to a faster learning from these guys and u could see some outcome.
They came much quicker to a point where they could enjoy the game and didnt got rolled only.
About Mag and me, we won most games while i had quicker fingers and moved a lot more. He started attack and i did react and supported the hot spots. There are movies where u can see me with a clickrate of 100-110.
If i did start first, we had a higher loss ratio.
The only person who was at the quality of mag in a team was without a doubt swoosh. We did play 2 games after we came back from a long break and just did roll paolai team these days a few times in a row.
Anyway, there was a lot of excellent player. I have the deepest respect to many of them, the moves we made these days was awesome and u cant compare that with the current stuff. Since STW the movement and the quality of the generall maneuver did drop more and more.
In STW and maybe in MTW u could completly outplay other teams by just moving, while later the setup and the fatique was just too important.
I made many examples of the weak points of the game and also where u could find insane exploits.
Mars
Back to Topic.
From my feeling the MTW orginal is ofc better.
I think i already explained why and what i do like and what not. I dont mind grafix at all, good grafic is nice for some hours, but it doesnt keep u hugged to a game for months.
The lag alone is a reason to not play it. I got a good computer, i got a good connection, it works just like a sharm in many other games. So why on earth i should accept this crazy lag in the current TW game?
If u can enjoy the current mtw2, great, good for u. I think most people here show a lot respect to new people. Its simply a fact, that new player who never played the old games cant really compare. Nothing bad about this, just dont make us look like fools, if we come along and share opinions within old friends.
STW was my first online game and call it luck, the community we had was crazy, i never again found something simliar. Im sure it was coz there were not many young player with internet connection these times.
The fact that noone said "fu", "STFU" or similiar shit, made the community something special. Respectful and if u can remember honourable playstlye we had. 3v3 and 1 droped, what happend was, that 1 of us did rout army and they played a 2v2.
Just to call one example.... but this brought some deepness to the game, this was also shown at the forum, where people spoke in 3rd person, where we had roleplaying.... that was amazing. Imo it was the community which made this game something special. 7 years are gone from this days, i played a lot of other games and even i did meet nice people and a good teamspirit, what we had in the STW times i never ever saw or experienced again.
I think this memories is what make me coming back here and check boards from time to time.
If u follow some people here and how the act, u understand why things are different today, many are pretty agressiv, show low or no manners. Show respect and u will get respect in return.
It was a pleassure to play with all these people and there are so many games and epic battles in my mind, i never will forget. Thats something i cant say about other games i played!
Mars
Swoosh So
07-12-2007, 16:18
I totally agree mike, the shogun community was great and i havent had that repeated again in another online game such as wow and others where people just worry about themselves really.
As to the person who moaned old vets are talking off topic, hey its an opportunity to catch up and share views the topic title is already discussed in depth, who cares if we stray off topic a little to chit chat about the totalwar series.
What pleases me most is that there are many old faces still on these boards :)
Personally i will play mtw2 online and maybe enter a few tournaments if kanuni and enough clanmates come back, ill also look at joining you old farts in samwars sunday if i can be bothered to buy mtw/vi again as i lost my copy :D
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-12-2007, 16:39
I totally agree mike, the shogun community was great and i havent had that repeated again in another online game such as wow and others where people just worry about themselves really.
As to the person who moaned old vets are talking off topic, hey its an opportunity to catch up and share views the topic title is already discussed in depth, who cares if we stray off topic a little to chit chat about the totalwar series.
What pleases me most is that there are many old faces still on these boards :)
Personally i will play mtw2 online and maybe enter a few tournaments if kanuni and enough clanmates come back, ill also look at joining you old farts in samwars sunday if i can be bothered to buy mtw/vi again as i lost my copy :D
you lost your VI copy! oh nos! I shall send my Swiss Armouded Pikemen to get it for you!!
Personally i will play mtw2 online and maybe enter a few tournaments if kanuni and enough clanmates come back, ill also look at joining you old farts in samwars sunday if i can be bothered to buy mtw/vi again as i lost my copy :D
A word of warning: MTW/VI multiplayer doesn't work with the ATI X series video cards and the nVidia 8800 and 8900 video cards.
Orda Khan
07-12-2007, 22:00
Back to Topic.
From my feeling the MTW orginal is ofc better.
I think i already explained why and what i do like and what not. I dont mind grafix at all, good grafic is nice for some hours, but it doesnt keep u hugged to a game for months.
The lag alone is a reason to not play it. I got a good computer, i got a good connection, it works just like a sharm in many other games. So why on earth i should accept this crazy lag in the current TW game?
If u can enjoy the current mtw2, great, good for u. I think most people here show a lot respect to new people. Its simply a fact, that new player who never played the old games cant really compare. Nothing bad about this, just dont make us look like fools, if we come along and share opinions within old friends.
STW was my first online game and call it luck, the community we had was crazy, i never again found something simliar. Im sure it was coz there were not many young player with internet connection these times.
The fact that noone said "fu", "STFU" or similiar shit, made the community something special. Respectful and if u can remember honourable playstlye we had. 3v3 and 1 droped, what happend was, that 1 of us did rout army and they played a 2v2.
Just to call one example.... but this brought some deepness to the game, this was also shown at the forum, where people spoke in 3rd person, where we had roleplaying.... that was amazing. Imo it was the community which made this game something special. 7 years are gone from this days, i played a lot of other games and even i did meet nice people and a good teamspirit, what we had in the STW times i never ever saw or experienced again.
I think this memories is what make me coming back here and check boards from time to time.
If u follow some people here and how the act, u understand why things are different today, many are pretty agressiv, show low or no manners. Show respect and u will get respect in return.
It was a pleassure to play with all these people and there are so many games and epic battles in my mind, i never will forget. Thats something i cant say about other games i played!
Mars
You said it all in this post.
There is a view that what is in the past is over and that we should look forward and not back. This view works for some but I have never been able to forget bygone days so easily, memories are what life is made of. Reflection, nostalgia very often can make you sigh and I find myself doing this quite a lot these days
.......Orda
Gawain of Orkeny
07-12-2007, 22:24
Yup like I said I was fortunate to have the pleasure of joining the community at the very start of MTW. It was my first online experience. I guess I got spoiled and thought it would always be that way. Two days in the RTW lobby showed me how wrong I was. To all those before me who played STW and those I faced in MTW/VI I salute you. Ill never forget those days.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
07-13-2007, 01:32
Yup like I said I was fortunate to have the pleasure of joining the community at the very start of MTW. It was my first online experience. I guess I got spoiled and thought it would always be that way. Two days in the RTW lobby showed me how wrong I was. To all those before me who played STW and those I faced in MTW/VI I salute you. Ill never forget those days.
yea. I started in March 2004 on VI, little while before RTW was out. I was justl ike you Gawain lol, thinking it going to be the same, but, yea, I was dead wrong also. always think back.but hey, have to move on I guess :sweatdrop: :yes:
I totally agree mike, the shogun community was great and i havent had that repeated again in another online game such as wow and others where people just worry about themselves really.
As to the person who moaned old vets are talking off topic, hey its an opportunity to catch up and share views the topic title is already discussed in depth, who cares if we stray off topic a little to chit chat about the totalwar series.
What pleases me most is that there are many old faces still on these boards :)
Personally i will play mtw2 online and maybe enter a few tournaments if kanuni and enough clanmates come back, ill also look at joining you old farts in samwars sunday if i can be bothered to buy mtw/vi again as i lost my copy :D
Susie, catch me on msn, i got 3 or 4 copies of MTW/VI.
R'as al Ghul
07-13-2007, 11:35
A word of warning: MTW/VI multiplayer doesn't work with the ATI X series video cards and the nVidia 8800 and 8900 video cards.
My Powercolor ATI x1600 Pro runs MTW/VI fine.
FearofFucy
07-23-2007, 15:50
Mike, next time you see me on MSN, say hello. Havent talked to you for a long time.
Mike, next time you see me on MSN, say hello. Havent talked to you for a long time.
Hey Jörg, hab eine neue MSN, add mich mal:
mike at Kocmoc.de
Bis dann.
Mars
uff, in case different languages arent allowed.... sorry for that, fucy and me are both germans and used to speak german.
I jsut told him my new MSN addy, nothing serious anyway.
Airwreck
08-03-2007, 05:31
Well I can really see there needs some things brought from MTW/VI and the most important..is think about peeps in the 3rd world I have been playing this game from the beginning shogun till now..and ever since RTW and now MTW2 the MP game is too much of a burden on dial up disease..In other words.. KISS.. for the peeps who don't know (Keep it simple stupid) I am really disapointed.. I really like this game.. but i just can't paly it.. Cuz U first worlders.. have DSL CABLE etc.. and have no patients.. SIGH
Swoosh So
08-03-2007, 17:24
Well I can really see there needs some things brought from MTW/VI and the most important..is think about peeps in the 3rd world I have been playing this game from the beginning shogun till now..and ever since RTW and now MTW2 the MP game is too much of a burden on dial up disease..In other words.. KISS.. for the peeps who don't know (Keep it simple stupid) I am really disapointed.. I really like this game.. but i just can't paly it.. Cuz U first worlders.. have DSL CABLE etc.. and have no patients.. SIGH
:dizzy2:
Airwreck
08-04-2007, 03:43
Oh I am not unsure about what needs to be moved to MTW2. I guess I was at level you couldn't follow.. let me be more clear.. Bring back the simpler graphics.. the simpler MP mode, the Simpler lobby, the simpler in game chat.
and what good does is it in saving a game when folks KICK you cuz your to laggy???
Bring back the simpler graphics.. the simpler MP mode, the Simpler lobby, the simpler in game chat.
You must be an engineer. I agree with your suggestion, but you will no longer see such things implemented in Creative Assembly games.
and what good does is it in saving a game when folks KICK you cuz your to laggy???
Save your money and play Samurai Wars. It works over modem.
Bring back the simpler graphics.. the simpler MP mode, the Simpler lobby, the simpler in game chat.
and what good does is it in saving a game when folks KICK you cuz your to laggy???
Hello Airwreck,
It should help when you change the graphic settings.
I'm not sure that M2TW using sprites like MTW would increase performance. The idea of 3D graphics is that the 3D card is put to work.
Disable as much of the other programs and services to free CPU and RAM for M2TW.
Cannot compare the two games, when I cannot even play decent lagless games on M2TW, at the same epic size.. do not ask me to command a lesser army when i had been pampered to command much more.
Do not tell me to spend more on getting a better machine.. M2TW had broken my history when I upgraded specifically just for this game to the best available one, yet I cannot play a decent 4v4 with the rest of the world like last time .. blah.. its seems like 3rd class citizen living in this part of the world.. but hey.. how come other online games do not treat us so.. :furious3:
Hack care about imbalances.. hack care about pretty 3D graphics.. all meaningless to me.. when I cannot even play..
I used to maintain my pc at the medium end, year in year out.. since it meets my needs to work, and played TW since 2000. But now, I have a super duper machine, over-spec for surfing, movies, and msoffice.. cb
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
08-06-2007, 18:39
Like I said. SW Beta 8 and Pike & Musket 1.5/2.0 all the way.
Orda Khan
08-06-2007, 22:09
Even the MTW/VI server seems to encounter its own share of problems, so touting SamWars is hardly the answer. Since the Mod is made using MTW/VI it has its own share of MTW related problems also, it is far from perfect.
M2TW asks for broadband connection so unless you have broadband you should really not complain about being kicked from games and 'having a go' at people who do is not particularly constructive either, since it is not their fault
Cannot compare the two games, when I cannot even play decent lagless games on M2TW, at the same epic size.. do not ask me to command a lesser army when i had been pampered to command much more.
Do not tell me to spend more on getting a better machine.. M2TW had broken my history when I upgraded specifically just for this game to the best available one, yet I cannot play a decent 4v4 with the rest of the world like last time .. blah.. its seems like 3rd class citizen living in this part of the world.. but hey.. how come other online games do not treat us so.. :furious3:
Hack care about imbalances.. hack care about pretty 3D graphics.. all meaningless to me.. when I cannot even play..
I used to maintain my pc at the medium end, year in year out.. since it meets my needs to work, and played TW since 2000. But now, I have a super duper machine, over-spec for surfing, movies, and msoffice.. cb
That's quite a cold shower Tootee, to upgrade like that and still not being able to play. You do have some sort of broadband? Is it also an issue when you play people from Asia only?
I do not quite understand the BB requirement (it's more than just broadband). The graphics, missile and melee models may have been upgraded and I can see that that requires a tougher computer to calculate it all, but the basic of the network is still the same as STW? 'Just' copy the issued commands from all players to every PC. There are max 160 units now, instead of 128 (but also less formation options per unit). If STW played well on 256 k, shouldn't M2TW do with 512 k?
wow it took me this long to find a post by my clannie, althou that could be that ive just installed mtw2 after building my new pc, and so have looked into the section of the forum.
nice thread Gawain,
after playing a few sp games in mtw2 i can see its gonna be hard for me as im used to mtw/vi
i played rtw a couple times mp and put it away to collect dust, same with Bi,
i guess what i would like to see is the same as Heerbann Diehard has said,
1. better graphics for vi
2. mouse controls same as vi
That's quite a cold shower Tootee, to upgrade like that and still not being able to play. You do have some sort of broadband? Is it also an issue when you play people from Asia only?
I do not quite understand the BB requirement (it's more than just broadband). The graphics, missile and melee models may have been upgraded and I can see that that requires a tougher computer to calculate it all, but the basic of the network is still the same as STW? 'Just' copy the issued commands from all players to every PC. There are max 160 units now, instead of 128 (but also less formation options per unit). If STW played well on 256 k, shouldn't M2TW do with 512 k?
Yes it really was Tosa-sama :bow: I thought the patch would resolve the lag issue, so in anticipation, upgraded my rig with whatever bonus I had left over..
playing with fellow clanm8s in SG seems ok, but the largest I had was 2v2.. the few 3v3 I had, had players from US or Europe.. and these weren't pretty.. the fps was ugly. Hey, isnt TW abt epic battles? we should be talking 4v4 :shame:
i think its a a combination of high computing requirement, and good bandwidth.. I assume in MP each PC will take care of the computing of each army, so literally it sort of like distributed computing.. 4v4.. 8 cpu doing the calculation? So dont tell me my machine isnt good enough for the job.. maybe CA should start coding in assembly...
oh ya.. am always on cable, about 6Mbps downlink and 256kbps uplink i think.. is the uplink the bottleneck?
I assume in MP each PC will take care of the computing of each army, so literally it sort of like distributed computing.. 4v4.. 8 cpu doing the calculation? So dont tell me my machine isnt good enough for the job..
Each machine has to calculate all 8 armies in a 4v4. So, the computing power of the distributed machines is used up duplicating the same calculations 8 times. In addition, each computer has to wait for the unit commands to come in from the other machines. The game can't go faster than the slowest machine in the game.
maybe CA should start coding in assembly...
CA switched to fast track design when they hired Jerome. Fast track design minimizes development time not memory usage or cpu usage. It appears to me that there are more calculations being done per man in the new engine (with no improvement in tactical depth) or the code is accessing multi-dimensional data arrays inefficiently. Accessing data arrays inefficiently can have a huge impact on performance, and it's an easy mistake for a programmer to make.
oh ya.. am always on cable, about 6Mbps downlink and 256kbps uplink i think.. is the uplink the bottleneck?
The 265kbps should not be a bottleneck. If it is, it's bad network code design because most broadband cable users are limited to 256kbps upload.
Even the MTW/VI server seems to encounter its own share of problems, so touting SamWars is hardly the answer. Since the Mod is made using MTW/VI it has its own share of MTW related problems also, it is far from perfect.
Two players had problems with their machines on Sunday, but after those problems were corrected we played several Samurai Wars 3v3 battles with no lag. Three of the players were in the USA and the other three were in Europe.
playing with fellow clanm8s in SG seems ok, but the largest I had was 2v2.. the few 3v3 I had, had players from US or Europe.. and these weren't pretty.. the fps was ugly. Hey, isnt TW abt epic battles? we should be talking 4v4 :shame:
How does a custom (SP) 4v4 work for you Tootee?
A 4vs4 MP should actually run smoother than that, as the computer no longer has to be used for 7 AI factions, 7 brains take care of that now. Of course there may be other bottlenecks (graphics, unitAI).
Abokasee
08-12-2007, 13:07
https://img104.imageshack.us/img104/4220/flamewaroe8.jpg
Please stop
:sad2:
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