Dilemma ...

[Bwian]

or rather...two dilemmas.

1) The Dwarf. I have a model I was happy with...but now I am not so sure. I think the legs are a little long, and I am not sure about the beard. It's a bit small compared to the Citadel miniatures ...but then, they never had ot animate the models. So...do I need shorter legs and fluffier beards to go with the models .... or do I reduce the beards so you can actually see the mesh.....

Also...the shorter you make the legs, the slower they will move on the battlefields. You have to scale the distance covered in the animations to prevent 'sliding' when they walk.

2) The Orks. I think the necks are too long and the arms a bit too bulky. The head is a little over-small too. I want to change the body anyway to model in a sleeveless jacket ...since most of the models show them like that. I have to re-do the mesh to modify the hands anyway...so I will be forced to re model and rig the mesh...thats only a few minutes work anyway.

Just not sure ....

I have hit a bit of a block with these, and I need to get some feedback from the guys to see which direction to take. It's stalled me and it's frustrating!!!

[Dave1984]

I agree that the Orc's necks seem just a tad too long.

How much would shortening the Dwarf's legs and adjusting to avoid sliding affect their speed on the field, bearing in mind that they are meant to move a little slower anyway? Is it way too much, or would it fit? If it works, then stumpy legs are definitely the way to go!

[Born in lust for blood]

Care for some pics?
I think dwarves were meant to move shorter so go for that. The ork thing too.

[Dogman55]

Like everyone else, I think dwarves being slow is fine! But I have no opinion on the orcs heh.

[Eufarius]

HEY Bwian can you show us some pics of the dilemmas you have reached?

[Blood Claw]

To me, I would rather them have a bit smaller beards so that we can see the textures and the models well. Also, I think the legs should be fairly proportionate to the body, even if they are slow. I see dwarves as being slow anyone and thta is what warhammer tells us as well. I mean, I don't want them so slow that a battle takes hours to commence but they should be a good but slow speed. I am sure you know what I am getting at. The leg length should look fairly proportionate in my opinion too.

Now, onto the orcs, I agree that the necks should be shorter and the heads a little larger. Also, like you said, the hands are going to be fixed so that is good. I personally think the arms look pretty good but a bit smaller wouldn't be bad because now that I think about it, we want the black orcs for instance, to have much larger arms than regular orcs but no too crazy.

Good luck, I can't wait to see some models with textures soon hopefully.

[DrZoidberg]

Ok, guys. I think what Bwian has been trying to tell us is that the Dwarfs will move just as fast as other units no matter what. The problem when the leg is too short is that it won't look like they're walking on the ground. It'll look like they're just pumping their legs and glide across the ground.


1) The fluffiness of the beard isn't the problem, (even though it wouldn't hurt to make them fluffier!). It's the length. On the miniatures and pictures it never ends above the belt. Longbeard beards finnish at the floor.

Dwarfs are longer and less bulky in the sourcebook drawings rather than the miniatures. The legs are a tad too long, but not so much that I'd call it a problem. Just as you said, the legs on the Citadell miniatures are tiny. It's hard to see how they can walk anywhere with those. I think that once you have the beard length sorted out they'll look great.

I also wouldn't mind seeing the Dwarfs fatter. They're all basically sopused to look like they're grossly over weight.

2) Bulky arms on an Orc is no problem. They should be bulky. The Warcraft Orc is a rip-off from Warhammer anyway, so why not aim toward that. They're bulky as a mofo.

Yep, neck is a bit too long. Not much, but it looks a bit funny in the still picture.

[Casuir]

They look more like lotr dwarfs than warhammer dwarfs i think. On the beard I think sticking with gws long beards is the best way to go, all the minatures and artwork have had them and changing it would significantly detract from the overall look imo, animating its a different story, not well up on multiple vertex weighting but would it be useful here? As for the legs, slow dwarfs is I think acceptable, how slows another thing though. The only dwarfs whose legs are really visible though are slayers, the rest of them including miners btw wear armour to near the tops of their boots. The models you have arent too bad for them though I'd maybe make them 10% smaller and a bit more of a pot belly. Legs could be a bit thicker maybe if it doesnt mess with anims. Pulled a few vertexs around and added a dodgy mohawk to give you a rough idea of what I mean:
https://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1993/dwarfsfb8.th.png (https://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dwarfsfb8.png)
Its not as apparent there but the pot belly takes away from the legs without them being much shorter physically

As for the orcs from what I can see on the pic I think you might be right on all three points, hard to tell with this monitor bolloxed though.

[Bwian]

Ok...so the general consensus so far is that I was right to be concerned.

Going through things:

1) Movement. Movement is a function of the animation, not the mesh itself. You need to scale the horizontal element of each animations root to suit any changes in the mesh. If you didn't do this, the figure would appear to skate across the land, not walk. You also have to adjust the vertical position so the feet touch the ground...not disappear into it or float above it. This, again, is an animation driven function. With KnightErrant's tools, you can take a root basepose skeleton, mess about with it, and then re-scale the animations to fit the mesh. Some trial and error is needed to get the co-ordinates correct ...but it is a simple enough process. Whatever I do in the mesh will result in a complete re-arrangement of the skeleton and a re-arrangement of the animations to suit. Shorten the legs, and you MUST reduce the horizontal scaling of the movement in proportion to the change. The less htey move...the slower they actually cover the ground, because you have, in real terms, shortened their stride! Shoirter legs are better. I won't go as far as the miniatures did, though. Those guys never had to be animated!

2) Beards. Longer is needed. Bushier is probably also needed to keep things looking right. Will play with that some. More braidking of hte beards will also help to make the model underneath visible.

3) Armour. I usually make an unarmoured version as a base model, but in this case, I don't think I should have. Chainmail all round...with a hauberk running down below the knees..with heavier armour for the warriors.

4) Orcs need shorter necks. Bigger heads and slightly toned down arms are also required for average units. It is easy enough to make them more extreme later on for special units, but these are the baseline models. Hands are already on the 'fix' list.

OK..time to get back to work!

[DrZoidberg]

2) Beards. Longer is needed. Bushier is probably also needed to keep things looking right. Will play with that some. More braidking of hte beards will also help to make the model underneath visible.

3) Armour. I usually make an unarmoured version as a base model, but in this case, I don't think I should have. Chainmail all round...with a hauberk running down below the knees..with heavier armour for the warriors.



I don't think we really need to be able to see the dwarven armour. The trick is to be able to tell them apart on the battlefield easily.

According to plan, here's the various Dwarfs that we'll have:

Dwarven Warrior
Dwarven Miners
Long Beards
Quarrellers
Thunderers

These all have chain mail armour. The basic warrior has an axe and a shield. Quarellers and thunderers have lighter armour and don't carry shields and set apart by their equipment. Miners doesn't have a shield either and have a lamp on their helmet and pick axes, and longbears have massive beards and a shield.

Ironbreakers

An Ironbreaker is basically a cast iron barrel with decoration and a huge rediculously extravagantly ornamented helmet.

Slayers, (troll/giant/dragon/daemon)

No armour and freaky hair do's

So my point is that it doesn't really matter if we can see their body armour. It's the helmet and weapon that counts. There's not a whole lot of visible body anyway on a dwarf.

If we're having trouble seperating them we can have all the Quarellers with pillbox helmets, Thunderers with conquistador style with a feather in it and Warriors and long beards in Norse helmets.

[alexader]

As I had seen many orcs miniatures,particularly the black orcs if you can see their neck you will notice that they have long necks but more wide so I think it's a good idea if you can make the neck a little wide.I'm telling only what I have seen:egypt:

[McIwoo]

for futur references and inspiration there are games workshop's validated animated 3d models of dwarves, orcs, chaos, human and perhaps soon elves
http://www.warhammeronline.com

hope that helps...

edit: this may have been already mentioned

[DrZoidberg]

Why not let chainmail hang down a bit like a skirt. It will create the illusion of shorter legs.

[Eufarius]

I don't think we really need to be able to see the dwarven armour. The trick is to be able to tell them apart on the battlefield easily.

According to plan, here's the various Dwarfs that we'll have:

Dwarven Warrior
Dwarven Miners
Long Beards
Quarrellers
Thunderers

These all have chain mail armour. The basic warrior has an axe and a shield. Quarellers and thunderers have lighter armour and don't carry shields and set apart by their equipment. Miners doesn't have a shield either and have a lamp on their helmet and pick axes, and longbears have massive beards and a shield.

Ironbreakers

An Ironbreaker is basically a cast iron barrel with decoration and a huge rediculously extravagantly ornamented helmet.

Slayers, (troll/giant/dragon/daemon)

No armour and freaky hair do's

So my point is that it doesn't really matter if we can see their body armour. It's the helmet and weapon that counts. There's not a whole lot of visible body anyway on a dwarf.

If we're having trouble seperating them we can have all the Quarellers with pillbox helmets, Thunderers with conquistador style with a feather in it and Warriors and long beards in Norse helmets.


WHATTT!!!

[DrZoidberg]

WHATTT!!!

Either you missunderstood me or you've missed one of the most loved features of the Warhammer universe.

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n4/n22660.jpg

[Bwian]

so...er...did someone finalise the Dwarf unit list and not tell me.....

I don't think so.

The unit list is most certanly not finalised, and isn't set in stone. That is my decision to make...and I haven't made it.

[DrZoidberg]

so...er...did someone finalise the Dwarf unit list and not tell me.....

I don't think so.

The unit list is most certanly not finalised, and isn't set in stone. That is my decision to make...and I haven't made it.

ok. missunderstanding.

[Eufarius]

Either you missunderstood me or you've missed one of the most loved features of the Warhammer universe.

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n4/n22660.jpg


whoops i messed up. i though tyou said no freaky hair-do's:oops:

[Bwian]

No armour , freaky hair do's! .... very important comma in there :beam:

The ginger bearded, mohawked, tattooed madmen ( mad-dwarves? ) are most definitely there. I already made the model. We couldn't do a Dwarf faction without those guys!

[Eufarius]

ahhhhh. Im so sorry but does their mohawk move in the wind?

[Spankfurt]

Man, the slayer series was so awsome.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian

I've been caught up with real life lately, so haven't had much of a chance to do anything. Got a chance now but the last thing I feel like doing is going through lines of code. Thought I'd drop by and see what's happening around the various mod forums.




1) The Dwarf. I have a model I was happy with...but now I am not so sure. I think the legs are a little long, and I am not sure about the beard. It's a bit small compared to the Citadel miniatures ...but then, they never had ot animate the models. So...do I need shorter legs and fluffier beards to go with the models .... or do I reduce the beards so you can actually see the mesh.....

Also...the shorter you make the legs, the slower they will move on the battlefields. You have to scale the distance covered in the animations to prevent 'sliding' when they walk.


There might be a way around your concerns on the slow movement rate of dwarves. Because you have to shorten the distance moved within the anim, they will move slower if left as is. However if we retime the movement loop anims, they'll cover the same modified distance in shorter time. Example - the normal walk anim is say 21 frames, because of the shortened legs the distance covered drops from 2 metres to 1.6 metres, if we retime the anim to 16 or 17 frames they will move at the same ground rate as their taller cousins - of course their little legs will also be moving faster. It wouldn't be too hard, just a bit tedious for the six basic movement loops.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

I am not overly concerned over the speed of movement, mainly because it would be correct in proportion to the actual length of leg in the model. Making the Dwarf legs even shorter would, in real terms, make them move slower. I was more concerned over the anatomical possibility of having virtually no legs at all .... which the Citadel Miniatures range seems to show.

I want to reach a compromise between the figures ( which are slightly stylised and never actually have to be animated ) and what could really be made to work.

Other than that, we are busy making full use of the toys that you and KE have made available for modding!

[Bwian]

Well... one of my two dilemmas are now solved!

I bring you...the Dwarf base unit.

https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/959/dwa2wu5.jpg

The old unit was a bit taller, had longer legs, less of a beard....and was..well...not DWARVISH .... here's the pic:

https://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8874/dwa1ec1.jpg

He looks thinner because he is taller and less plump!

Anyway...this is the base 'crew' model, and the warriors will be worked using the same base model but with added armour, longer chain-mail hauberks and added plate armour etc. I am also working on a thunderer, crossbowman etc. Once you have the base model, these variants are easy to do. This took far longer than I wanted to get pinned down..I just spent ages mucking about getting nowhere until I hit on a re-shape that felt right!

Now to sort out the Orc model

[Dave1984]

The new Dwarf model certainly does look more 'right'. How big and broad is it in comparison to, say, a basic M2TW human model?

[Bwian]

The top of his head is just below shoulder height .... or, to put it another way, you could comfortably rest your pint on his head. He would then, of course, cut you down to his height with a very sharp axe by removing your legs just below the knees.

Some in-game screenshots will be appearing shortly in the eye-candy thread!

[DrZoidberg]

I'm happy. Looks smashing.

[Eufarius]

looking good. the dwarves are going to be amazing

[Casuir]

Looking much better

[Blood Claw]

I agree, the dwarf looks much better now, in all ways. Great job on the adjustments.

[Taranaich]

I kind of prefer the moustache on the earlier model, but in every other way the new one is much, much better. Good job!

[Abokasee]

No height comparison with a human height model?

[Bwian]

I am trying to get some good screenshots to show the heoght difference.

Been a bit tied up with real life and real work, plus I managed to break the transmission on my commute to work bike....have had to do a fair bit of spannering to get mobile again. All sorted now!

[Eufarius]

thats some good stuff but i think to compare we do need to see a dwarf model next to a human one. if its possible.