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econ21
06-25-2007, 23:35
This thread is for all out of character discussion of the King of the Romans PBM - a HRE M2TW game. Please post in this thread if you have any queries or are unsure where to post.

The list of players and description of their avatars is maintained in the first post of the Chancellor and Governors thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383081&postcount=1



*************KOTR FAQ (UPDATED)**********************

The following paragraphs are designed to provide a simple understanding of the KOTR game and how it works. If anything in these paragraphs conflicts with one of the Game Rules, the Rule takes precedent.

Introduction

The general idea of the King of the Romans (KOTR) game is to allow a large group of players to determine the fate and development of the Holy Roman Empire in M2TW.

All players are “Electors” and will belong to one of the four Ducal Houses, Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). Eventually all players will be represented by an in-game character known as an “avatar.” This will typically be a general, but agents such as spies, priests or diplomats can be used as well upon request. It is not advisable to use an assassin as an avatar, as they have short life expectancies. If a player’s avatar gets into a battle, the player is expected to download the savegame and fight the battle.

Collectively, the Electors form the Imperial Diet. This has two functions - to elect a Chancellor and to create Edicts. The Chancellor will be the “reigning player” and control the game during his term in office. He will move all the generals, authorize any buildings from the build queues and train any units/agents. “Edicts” are laws that require the Chancellor to take specific actions. These can be very wide ranging in scope, but typically include such things as declaring war against another nation, seeking an alliance with a neutral country, or making peace with an enemy nation.

How to Join the Game

In order to join the game and get started, all you need to do is post in the current OOC thread that you would like to join and select one of the four Ducal Houses. You can then start participating in as much or as little detail as you wish. You will always be able to find the location of the relevant game threads in the second post of the Imperial Library (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383644&postcount=2).

The Ranks

KOTR attempts to mimic the feudal political system of medieval Europe. There are several ranks which each player can obtain, all of which come with their own benefit and responsibilities. If you wish to be highly involved, you can take on roles that require more work and responsibility. If you wish to simply observe and cast votes during election times, you will have to do very little. The extent of your involvement is entirely up to you.

Electors

All players, except the Emperor, are Electors, even if they hold another rank. It is the lowest rank in the game and all new players begin at this level. As an Elector, you may speak in the Imperial Diet, propose one Edict per session, vote on Edicts, and vote for Chancellor. All Electors belong to one of the Ducal Houses. You are not required to follow the orders or suggestions of your Duke, but he has the ability to bestow and remove ranks and privileges. If you have ambitions to rise to a higher rank, carefully consider whether your Duke will approve of your actions or not.

It is important to remember that you can only freely propose one personal Edict per Diet session. Choose an issue that is important to you and think very carefully about how you word it. A poorly worded or unimportant Edict can easily be ignored and forgotten. The only way you can propose more than one Edict per Diet session is through the approval of your Duke.

Electors will be provided with avatars on the basis of seniority; first come, first served. Generals are the most popular avatars and there may be a waiting period to obtain one. Agent avatars can usually be obtained quickly, but are not as complex and are not really suited for players who wish to rise to a higher rank. If you take a general as an avatar, you will be expected to fight any battles the avatar gets into, assuming he commands the army. You will have 48 hours in which to fight the battle after you are notified about it. When that time expires, the battle will be autoresolved, which could result in the death of your avatar. If you do not want to fight battles and there is a shortage of generals for avatars, please do not accept one. If you want an avatar but do not wish to fight, please consider using an agent.

Counts

Counts are prominent nobles within their Houses. The title of Count can be bestowed upon an Elector by his Duke. The role of Count is identical to that of an Elector with a general avatar, with a few exceptions.

A Count rules over one of the settlements (city or castle) in his Ducal House. The Count may, at his discretion, determine the order in which buildings are created in that settlement (build queue). The Chancellor is not required to build anything in the settlement, but if something is built, it must be in the order determined by the Count. The Count can also set the tax rate in his settlement, if it is a city. Counts gain a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. Counts can name an heir to take over their lands when they die. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar who is not already a Count.

There are two kinds of Counts: Freehold Counts and Bonded Counts. The difference is simple. Freehold Counts are the natural born sons of a Duke. They cannot be removed from control of their settlement, though the Duke can still name another as his heir if a Freehold Count displeases him. Bonded Counts are non-blood sons of a Duke, such as adoptees, sons-in-law, or anyone else who is not a natural born son. Bonded Counts can be stripped of their titles and lands at any time and for any reason by the Duke.

Dukes

Dukes are the heads of the Houses. They are figures of authority and they wield a great deal of power. There is only one Duke per House and a player can only become Duke by being the Duke’s heir at the time of his death. The role of Duke has many more powers than that of Count and Dukes gain a significant influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

The Duke rules over the capital of his House and all provinces which do not have a Count. Just like with a Count, the Duke can determine the build queue and tax rate for these settlements, but he can give orders for as many of them as he wishes. Dukes are also responsible for promoting and demoting Bonded Counts. A Duke may give any Elector with a general avatar the rank of Count, making them a Bonded Count. He may take away their lands at any time or switch their lands as he sees fit. The Duke can name an heir to take over as head of his House when he dies. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar, and it is recommended (though not necessary) that the person already be a Count.

The Duke is responsible for managing the affairs of his House and will often be dealing directly with the Chancellor and the Kaiser in high-level political discussions. Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. These can be the Duke’s own Edicts, but it is recommended that the Duke pick at least some of them from amongst the ‘extras’ his Electors want to put forward. It would be entirely appropriate for the Duke to use incentives and threats to ensure that the policies he wants get put forward. However, remember that even these extra Edict proposals must come pre-seconded by two members of his House. Don’t anger too many of your Electors or they could prevent you from using your extra Edict proposals!

Finally, the Duke controls the Household Army. The Household Army is the House’s personal military force and it is largely independent of outside control. The Duke is responsible for determining where it is garrisoned, who commands it, and what orders it is given. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Stewards

Stewards are Electors who are temporarily acting as Dukes. KOTR originally started with two Stewards, but for the most part, the title of Steward is a temporary one bestowed on a House Elector for a short time when a Duke is unavailable to fulfill his duties. In reality, this happens when a player who is a Duke is going on vacation or is otherwise going to be out-of-touch with the game for a short period of time.

Stewards have all of the powers of Dukes for the duration of their term, except that they cannot name an heir.

Emperor (Kaiser)

The Holy Roman Emperor is the supreme head of the Empire. It is a hereditary position. (Note: This is not historical, but there’s no way to change this in-game.) While the Emperor is theoretically the most powerful man in the entire Empire, in the KOTR game he plays a more subtle role. The Emperor gains an influence bonus equal to his authority during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

First, the Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet. It is his job to maintain order in the Diet and ensure that it runs smoothly. If there is a dispute about the Game Rules, the Emperor will make the final decision about the proper manner to follow the Rules.

Second, the Emperor does not belong to any of the Ducal Houses. Upon inheriting the throne, they leave their old House for good and lose any other titles (Elector, Count, Duke) that they might have. The Emperor is expected to act for the good of the Empire, rather than an individual House. While Emperors are expected to be impartial, they will certainly have strong opinions about what is best for the Empire. This may in turn result in them siding with Houses that support their decisions and working against Houses that they believe are hurting the Empire.

Third, Emperors allocate newly captured provinces to the Ducal Houses. When a province is captured, it comes under the direct control of the Emperor, who can control them in the same manner that the Dukes and the Counts can control their own lands. The Emperor may allocate any of his lands to any of the Ducal Houses. Once allocated, they cannot ever be returned to the Emperor. House provinces where are re-taken after being occupied by an enemy do not count as being “captured.”

Fourth, Emperors decide which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.

Finally, Emperors can automatically assume the position of Chancellor for the first term after they are crowned. This power is not subject to Diet vote and no one can run against them. However, the Emperor still has the limitations of Chancellor while in office, which means he can be impeached by the Diet in exceptional circumstances. Any further attempts by the Emperor to be Chancellor must go through the normal election process.

Prince (Prinz)

The Prince is a largely unimportant role, significant mainly because he is the heir to the throne and will become the next Emperor. Unlike the title of Emperor, the title of Prince is added in addition to any other titles the player holds. This gives the player a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. The Prince’s only duty is to preside over the Diet when the Emperor is absent.

There is no control over who becomes the new Prince once the current one assumes the throne. Like with the Emperor, this is a limitation imposed on us by the game itself. With luck, the role will only fall on players who seek to be active in the game. (*cross your fingers!*)

In practical terms, players must always remember that the Prince will inherit the throne, thus gaining power over the Houses through his ability to allocate newly conquered provinces. If you make an enemy of the Prince, your House might find itself smaller than the others when he becomes Emperor.

Chancellor

The position of Chancellor is without a doubt the most important and powerful one in KOTR. In game terms, the Chancellor is the person who actually plays the M2TW game. Unlike the other positions, you shouldn’t think of the Chancellor in the sense of what he can do, but rather what he cannot do. He is essentially playing the single player M2TW campaign with the following restrictions:

The Chancellor must obey the Game Rules and Edicts that have been passed by the Diet. Failure to do so can lead to impeachment by the Diet.

The Chancellor decides whether buildings are to be constructed in all settlements. If a settlement has a build queue from a Count, Duke, or Emperor, then he must build the items on that list in the order listed. However, he does not have to build anything at all if he does not want to, he only has to follow the build queue if he does decide to build something. If a settlement has no build queue for whatever reason, the Chancellor can build whatever he likes.

The Chancellor moves the armies and hands out saved games to be played by the appropriate generals. He can fight battles that his avatar is commanding whenever he wants without pause, but must give other players 48 hours to fight their battles. If a player exceeds the time limit or if the battle is lead by a Captain or a general that is not represented by a player, the battle must be autoresolved. The only exception to the Chancellor’s control over the armies are the Household Armies. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Essentially everything else is free game. If there isn’t a Rule or Edict about it, the Chancellor can do whatever he wants. The Chancellor’s term last for 10 game turns (20 game years), but he can run for re-election if he wishes. In recognition for his contributions, the Chancellor gets a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor, even after he leaves office.


***************KOTR GAME RULES**************

Game settings

*MT2TW with the 1.2 patch
*Hard campaigns, very hard battles.
*Large unit size.
*Battle timer on. Show CPU Moves, Manage all Settlements
Standard victory conditions (45 provinces, including Rome).

Charter Amendment 6.2: Medifix will no longer be used and in its stead, FactionHeir's trait and ancillary fixes will be implemented. He will also take full responsibility of any issues regarding these files, however unlikely these may be after extensive testing.

The only mod we will use initially consists of the trait and ancillary files created by factionheir, available to download at:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix124.rar

The readme is in the spoiler tags.


KOTRfixREADME.txt
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START OF README
-
Version 1.24 (22-05-2007)


This package contains 2 folders and 6 files, one of which is the readme you are currently reading.
I have included folders as this will make it easier for you to figure where a file is to go and prevent errors.
As you can see, one folder is named "data" and another one inside this data folder is labelled "text"
To install the fixes, simply extract/move the data folder directly from the package into your root medieval directory.
This means that after doing so, you should find following files in your medieval/data folder:
export_descr_character_traits.txt
export_descr_ancillaries.txt
export_descr_vnvs_enums.txt

And a folder in your data folder named "text"
Inside that folder, you should find:
export_ancillaries.txt.string.bin
export_VnVs.txt.strings.bin


You do not need to extract the readme, as this is purely informational for this installation only.

In short (for the impatient and to quick check):

-Extract data folder directly into medieval game directory.
-Make sure your medieval directory now has a data folder (already present before extracting) and a text folder within (usually not present before)
-Make sure the following files are found inside the data folder:
export_descr_character_traits.txt
export_descr_ancillaries.txt
export_descr_vnvs_enums.txt
-Make sure the following files are found inside the text folder:
export_ancillaries.txt.string.bin
export_VnVs.txt.strings.bin


Now to apply those fixes, you will need to run your medieval game exe using a shortcut or a bat file.
The target of said file should read similar to this:

D:\Medieval\medieval2.exe --io.file_first

Where "D:\Medieval\" varies depending on your installation but medieval2.exe --io.file_first should be constant.

If you encounter any issues with my fixes, please let me know via any means you feel necessary and I will investigate.
As per current version, there are no errors showing up in the medieval error log that are from these fixes.

Also note that those fixes work retroactively in any savegame and at the same time also allow a savegame to continue working without the fixes installed.
As such, it is perfectly safe to use and will not necessitate its continued usage once a game is started.
However as per Charter Amendment 6.2 for the KOTR PBM, this fix is to be used by the chancellor currently running the game.

I hope you enjoy the fixes and if you have problems or suggestions, please let me know.

FactionHeir

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END OF README
-




At a later stage, we may use a mod to give the Forlorn Hope 2 hitpoints.

Charter Amendment CAE1.1: econ21 will be authorised to give AI factions extra florins; for example, by gifting them a lump sum every 10 turns or so.

To increase the difficulty, the AI will periodically be given money via the consol. Details in the spoil.

I plan to give 100000 gold to the AI each Diet (ie every 10 turns). The command for this is:

add_money hungary, 100000

The factions which will benefit initially are:

england
france
spain
venice
sicily
milan
scotland
byzantium
russia
moors
turks
egypt
denmark
portugal
poland
hungary

The Mongols, Timurids and Aztecs may be included at a later stage.



Hard restrictions on play: * only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.

How to play - detailed rules


1. The role of players.

1.1 Each player will roleplay an “elector” of the HRE. They must choose one of four noble houses to belong to. Players are born into a noble House. It is in their blood and cannot be changed. It is determined by which of the four lines on the family tree their avatar falls under (except for the three starter Generals, for whom it is determined by their initial geography). [Note - if avatars spawn disproportionately in certain Houses, Electors of one House may be offered an avatar of another, but then they effectively role-play a new character.]

*Charter Amendment 9.2: Add to article 1.1:
In view of exceptional circumstances, the von Mahren family is allowed to join the House of Austria.

1.2 Over time, all players will be assigned an avatar (typically a general) by econ21 to represent them. They should roleplay their traits.

1.3 Players whose avatars lead in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved.

1.4 Players whose avatars are Counts are entitled to set the taxes and build queue of that settlement. If anything is built in the settlement, it must be the first item on the build queue.
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 1: Amend 1.4 by adding: If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Chancellor can build what he likes. The Chancellor may upgrade a settlement at any time (ie upgrade the walls regardless of a build queue), unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the governor.

1.5 Each elector will periodically vote to elect a Chancellor (reigning player) of the HRE and on edicts to direct him.

1.6 Players are encouraged to stand for the post of Chancellor.

1.7 Players are encouraged to write in-character stories in the stories thread; to discuss matters of state in the Imperial Diet deliberations thread; to write-up battle reports; to PM each other in character for role-playing etc. [Note: when posting screenshots, we could keep them full size but put them under spoiler tags.]


2. The role of the Chancellor.

2.1 The Chancellor is much like the player of a solo M2TW campaign - he moves all the units and agents on the map; he decides all the buildings and which units/agents to be trained.

2.2 However, he delegates battles to the player whose general leads the HRE force. And he follows the build queues and tax policies of players with governors.

2.3 He also must obey Imperial edicts and the constitution (these rules) or face political consequences.

2.4 The Chancellor is elected every 10 turns. Incumbent Chancellors can run for re-election if they wish.

2.5 The Chancellor must appoint army commanders. He must maintain a list of who has what post and notify players if they are appointed or dismissed from a role.

2.6 Battles are only fought manually when commanded by a player controlled general who is an army commander. They are autoresolved in all other cases (e.g. captain-led armies).

Charter Amendment E2.1:
(a) If an Edict to impeach the Chancellor is passed with a 2/3 majority, he is removed from office immediately.
(b) After impeachment, a fresh election is held to elect a new Chancellor, although a Kaiser may also exercise his perogative to be Chancellor at that point.
(c) The Chancellor replacing an impeached Chancellor serves out the remainder of the impeached Chancellor's term.
(d) All edicts passed in the Diet that elected the impeached Chancellor remain valid, unless overturned by new Edicts at the Emergency Session that impeached him.
(e) An impeached chancellor is not granted the additional bonus to influence that an ex-chancellor would normally be given.


3. The role of the Imperial Diet

3.1. The Imperial Diet will meet in session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each session lasts 3 days of real time.

3.2. At each session, nobles can propose edicts. These require two seconders to be put to the vote. Edicts are laws that direct what the Chancellor should do.

Charter Ammendment 5.2: Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose THREE House edicts per Diet provided that they have previously securing the backing of two other members of their House.

3.3. Any declaration of war must be authorised by an Imperial edict. The Chancellor or any Duke is empowered to declare war on a non-allied army entering its lands.

Charter Amendment 10.2:
(a) No settlement will be captured without an Edict authorising its acquisition in advance.
(b) Captured settlements will be abandoned or given away unless, at the next Diet session, a Charter Amendment incorporates them formally as part of the Reich.
(c) The 33 existing provinces of the Reich are exempt from (a) and (b).
(d) This amendment overrides the constitutional right of Household Armies to conquer one neighbouring province.
Proposed: Kaiser Henry
Seconded: Conrad Salier, Ansehelm von Kastilien

*3.4. The rules of the game can be changed by a Noble Charter Amendments (2/3 majority required) except those marked with a *.

3.5. Tied edicts fail. If contradictory edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority.

3.6. Edicts can only last for 10 turns.

3.7. Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

*3.8. The Chancellor can be impeached and removed from office by a 2/3 majority of the Imperial Diet.

3.9. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final. The Prince can preside in the absence of the Emperor. The Emperor can call an emergency session of the Imperial Diet - freeze the game - at will.
Charter Amendment 8.2: In addition to the Kaiser, an Emergency Session of the Diet may be called by the Prinz, or if three of the four House leaders (Dukes or Stewards) agree to do so.

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +5 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 3 points):
Duke: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.

Charter Amendment 6.7: Any decision that would lead to the excommunication of the Reich has to be authorized by a Diet vote, requiring a 2/3 majority. In the event of a conflict, this Amendment supercedes Rule 3.3 and Charter Amendment 5.1.


4. The role of the four houses - Dukes and Counts

4.1 There will be four houses representing the four main branches of the family tree: Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). At the start of the game, Prince Henry is Duke of Swabia and Leopold is Duke of Austria. The Dukes of Franconia and Bavaria have not yet been spawned (they will be the two males who take positions under the Emperor in the family tree).

4.2 Bavaria and Franconia have no Duke yet, so there are Stewards to act in their place until them. Until there is a Duke, they receive the +2 influence of a Duke.

Charter Amendment 3.1: Stewards may bestow the rank of Count on nobles of their House. This Amendment does not give Stewards any other Ducal power, it does not give Stewards additional Influence, nor does it allow Stewards to be Counts themselves.

The Stewards themselves are not Counts. Like Otto in Innsbruck, they are just soldiers, self-made men of lesser station [think Denethor in Lord of the Rings]. They could be rewarded by being made a Count by their Duke when he spawns, though. And they could marry into the Royal line, potentially becoming the Duke themselves.

4.3 The Emperor controls the initial allocation of settlements (e.g. upon conquest). At the start of the game, we have:

Frankfurt - capital of Franconia, home of the Duke (TBC)
Stafen - capital of Swabia, home of the Duke (Prince Henry)
Nuremburg - capital of Bavaria, home of the Duke (TBC)
Innsbruck - second city of Bavaria
Vienna - capital of Austria, home of the Duke (Leopold)
Bologna - is not assigned to any house

4.4 Dukes can then grant a settlement to a player, making him Count of that settlement. The settlements remain nominally within the relevant Duchy. There are no Counts at the start of the game. Capitals of a House need no Counts and cannot be given to them - they belong to the Duke (or his Steward). The Emperor could allocate Bologna to a House at any time, but after that, it will permanently belong to that House. There is an expectation that Franconia will extend north, Swabia west, Bavaria south and Austria east but this should not be followed too rigidly - e.g. the Emperor does not have to give Bologna to Bavaria.

[Note: It is expected that settlements will not be gifted lightly by the Emperor and by Dukes/Stewards - they should be regarded as precious rewards. There is no particular value to settlements in themselves, however. Avatars will be assigned according to the family tree, so more settlements does not mean more family members in a House - nor does it raise influence (beyond the one-off +1 for being a Count). A player cannot be the Count of more than one settlement. Dukes can have more than one settlement not dispersed to counts (and given the ratio of settlements to generals in a game, this is inevitable), but this provides no particular benefits.]

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

4.6 Counts who are not the natural sons of a Duke (e.g. adoptees and sons in law) may be lose their titles at the whim of the Duke. They are referred to as bonded Counts and are expected to act according to the wishes of their Duke. Natural sons of a Duke may not lose their settlements - they are referred to as freehold Counts.

4.7 Dukes and Counts should name a successor, who will take over their titles and settlements when they die. If no successor is named, the oldest natural son inherits, (if none, oldest adopted son; if none again, then the oldest son-in-law).
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 2: Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.

4.8 Dukes are expected to guide their families for the good for their Duchies. Members of a house do not have to follow their Dukes in terms of politics. However, the Duke can make players a Count by giving them a settlement (granting them +1 influence). Only the Duke of your House (not another Duke) can make you a Count. Houses will not be the only division in the Diet - chivalry, piety, strategy and other factors may also divide players.

Charter Amendment 6.3: Dukes may bestow the title of Count on Electors without avatars.


5 The role of the Emperor and Prince

5.1 The Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet as in 3.9. He is the "chairman" of the HRE, as opposed to the Chancellor who is the "chief executive". He will keep order in the Diet and try to make things run smoothly.

5.2 Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.

5.3 The Emperor can allocate settlements to one of the Four Houses.

5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes.

5.5 The Prince succeeds the Emperor and can deputise in his absence.

5.6 Emperors do not belong to factions - if crowned, they leave their House and - if Duke - are replaced by their chosen successor. They are expected to act for the good of the Empire and be impartial, above petty regional politics.

5.7 The Emperor decides which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.


6. Armies and Battles

Rules 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 have been removed.

6.4 For field armies of seven or more units (including the general), the Chancellor must appoint an “army commander”. The army commander must be a “knight”. Army commanders are appointed for the duration of the Imperial Diet session (10 turn intervals). The post is expected to be rotating. Army commanders can decide what to do with prisoners after battle. They can be dismissed by Chancellors, but must be informed of this.

6.5 Avatars who take part in battles may be promoted to “knights” by the army commander. Typically, this will involve the avatar’s bodyguard fighting honourably in a battle. The Emperor, Prince and four Dukes begin the game knighted.

6.6 The title of Field Marshall shall be given to the commanders of the Household Armies for the duration of their command.
Charter Amendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed.

Charter Amendment 5.1: Each Duchy shall have a Household Army with which to defend its territories. The Household Army will be governed by the following clauses:

1) The Household Army may not be removed from the House’s provinces without the permission of the Duke.
2) The Duke will determine where the Household Army is to be garrisoned. This location can be changed at any time, so long as the Duke informs the Chancellor of the move. The Chancellor will not remove the Household Army from the garrison without the Duke’s permission, except as required to fulfill Clause 4.
3) The Duke will determine who commands the Household Army.
4) At the beginning of each Diet session the Duke may assign general orders to the Household Army, which are to be carried out by the Chancellor. Between Diet sessions, any additional orders submitted by Dukes are to be implemented only at the Chancellor's discretion. The Duke may select one of the following Orders: (1) attack any rebel force in House territory, (2) attack any hostile force in House territory, including other factions, (3) attack any foreign or rebel army in House territory, including neutral (but not allied or crusading) factions, (4) temporary assignment to another House, (5) assignment to offensive duties. If Order (4) is chosen, the Duke may determine the time limit of the temporary assignment and the commanding general, but all other decisions are made by the Duke of the receiving house. When the time limit expires, the Household Army must be immediately returned to House lands, no matter what other circumstances occur, unless the Duke agrees otherwise. If Order (5) is chosen, the Duke may specify an enemy settlement or army as the objective and the commanding general. The settlement or army must be in a province that borders the House and the Reich must already be at war with the target. All other decisions are made by the Chancellor. The Duke may recall the Household Army from offensive duties at any time and for any reason.
5) The Household Army will consist of a minimum of 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. The Household Army will ideally consist of 4 infantry regiments, 3 ranged regiments, and 2 cavalry regiments. For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments. All regiments must be professional soldiers, not militia.
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
7) The Chancellor will attempt to maintain the Household Armies at full strength, with the highest quality regiments available.
8) In emergencies, the Chancellor may detach any units in excess of the minimum strength level for use elsewhere. The Chancellor may not reduce a Household Army below the minimum strength level without the permission of the Duke.
9) If the Imperial Treasury cannot support all Household Armies at minimum strength, the Chancellor must consult with the Dukes and receive their permission to reduce the Household Armies in such a way as to eliminate the deficit.
10) The Imperial Diet may temporarily remove any or all of these rules by a simple majority vote. The temporary period will last no longer than 10 turns.

7. Crusades and missions.

7.1 The Chancellor must endeavour to follow missions from the Pope and Council of Nobles, unless exempted by the Diet. Missions from guilds and foreign powers are optional.

7.2 Crusades must be authorised by the Diet, unless announced by another faction.

7.3 When a crusade is called, the Chancellor must ask all generals if they wish to join. He must include at least three volunteers who reply within 48 hours. If there are more than three, he must pick the three most pious. However, he can decline a volunteer if that would usurp his pick of army commander. If the AI calls a crusade, the Chancellor can choose not to follow it, even if generals wish to join - but he must still notify them immediately of the call and get their view on whether they would like to join (were he to follow the call).

*Charter Amendment 9.1:

The Charter of the Kingdom of Outremer

1. The Kingdom of Outremer will consist of Antioch, Acre, Adana, Aleppo, Edessa and Damascus.

2. The Kingdom of Outremer is an integral part of the Reich. It is not a fifth House.

3. The function of the Kingdom is defensive: to safeguard Jerusalem and protect the gateway to Christendom

4. The Kingdom will be overseen by a King of Outremer, who will be appointed by the Emperor at each full Diet session. The King will temporarily renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his appointment (e.g. if Duke, must appoint a Steward).

5. The King will command a Household Army, both acting according to Charter Amendment 5.2 (with the King assuming the role of “Duke”). He may delegate the day to day command of the Army (assign other generals to lead it in battle). However, contrary to CA5.2, to be in accordance with article (1), the Army may not be used to permanently conquer neighbouring provinces (recapturing Christian settlements taken by non-Christians and returning them to their original owners would be allowed).

6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count.

7. Both the King and Crusading Counts must be physically located outside Europe for the duration of their appointments.

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia. Antioch will be the capital of Outremer and an Imperial province governed by the King of Outremer. Edessa will also be an Imperial province, governed by a Count chosen by the King of Outremer. The Crusading Count for a settlement must come from the appropriate House. They will gain an additional +1 influence (over and above any influence for being a Count of a European settlement) but only for the Diet session that marks their appointment. The cap of 5 influence for all but the Emperor remains.


8. Historical armies

Only historical armies can fight battles (ahistorical stacks can be used for transport).

No more than half an army can be mercenary. Crusader mercenaries (crusader sergeants, crusader knights, pilgrims, fanatics) can count as natives.

Revised maxima for each unit type by number of units in stack

3^Type|1-5|6-10|11-15|16+
7^Generals|2|2|2|2
7^Knights|2|4|6|8
7^Cavalry|2|4|6|8
7^Missile inf|2|3|4|6
7^Elite inf|2|3|4|6
7^Other foot|Any|Any|Any|Any
7^Artillery|1|2|3|4


Crusades are exempt from restrictions on the number of generals.

Unit type definitions:
- Knights: Dismtd Feudal knights; Dismtd Imperial knights; Dismtd Gothic knights; Mailed knights; Feudal knights; Imperial knights; Teutonic knights; General’s bodyguard; Gothic knights; plus any mercenary knights or equivalent heavy cavalry.
- Cavalry: Any mounted knights plus non-knightly cavalry (Mounted crossbowmen ; Reiters; Merchant cavalry; Mounted sergeants, Turcomans etc)
-Foot missiles: Peasant archers; Peasant crossbowmen; Crossbow militia; Pavisse crossbowmen; Arquebusiers; Handgunners etc
-Elite infantry: Zweihander; Forlorn Hope; Landsknechts; dismounted knights and equivalent mercs - e.g. Galllowglass
-Other foot: Peasants; Town militia; Halberd militia; Spear militia; Sergeant spearmen; Armoured spearmen; Crusader sergeants; Pike militia

Here's the old german titles of nobility and our equivalents:

Political
Elector = Kurfurst
Count = Graf
Duke = Herzog
Prince = Prinz
Emperor = Kaiser

Military
Knight = Ritter
Field Marshal = Generalfeldmarshal

GeneralHankerchief
06-25-2007, 23:53
*anxiously awaits Chancellor's Report regarding the new Prinz of the Reich*

OverKnight
06-26-2007, 01:01
*anxiously awaits Chancellor's Report regarding the new Prinz of the Reich*

Second! The court historian needs fodder, also a current save would be nice too.

Speaking of which. . .thanks for the praise TC and econ21. :2thumbsup:

I'm currently revising the history to a more narrative format and including links in the text. I grew lazy during my term as chancellor and just started to put up links to reports and such without much context. Hopefully the revision will provide the casual reader with an overview while still giving the option of going more in depth if they want.

GeneralHankerchief
06-26-2007, 01:32
I can only say "good luck." From experience, revisions of that magnitude take time and require a lot of effort to maintain future entries of the same quality. It is much appreciated.

OverKnight
06-26-2007, 02:19
I'm already halfway through :wink: check the first entries in the history.

gibsonsg91921
06-26-2007, 03:10
nice job OK

i wanna know who the new prince is - im pretty sure its siegfried but hey i can dream

Ituralde
06-26-2007, 10:28
By the way, if it really should be Siegfried, I'd like the IC status of the next Prince to be unknown. That way Warluster and I can better work on an IC reason for this strangest of new heirs.

I mean, come on, who goes around and says the youngest son of my nephew will be my new heir. :no:

Stig
06-26-2007, 10:41
Maybe we can let it be unknown IC so that you are made heir to the throne after you have gone on crusade.
Jobst is so stunned by the achievements of Siegfried that he makes him his heir.

FactionHeir
06-26-2007, 11:52
Only way I can see Jobst making Siegfried heir is by marrying his daughter to him or Siegfried somehow performing a very valuable task and showing loyalty to Jobst.

TinCow
06-26-2007, 11:57
I mean, come on, who goes around and says the youngest son of my nephew will be my new heir. :no:

Every faction leader in M2TW. Hey, look on the bright side, at least you're not insane.

Ignoramus
06-26-2007, 12:03
Sorry about the delay with the Chancellor's report. It's being compiled now.

OverKnight
06-26-2007, 14:10
The History is now fully revised with a better narrative flow and split into Chancellor Terms (thanks for the suggestion econ21) rather than 90 and 10 year chunks.

As always, if you have any additions to suggest, memorable arguments in the Diet, a battle I missed, that Pope's name I forgot, etc., let me know.

Stig
06-26-2007, 14:27
http://www.multiplayerhub.com/board/images/smiles/icon_stock2.gif

Igno?

Could you atleast upload the save, that only takes 30 seconds

TinCow
06-26-2007, 14:37
The History is now fully revised with a better narrative flow and split into Chancellor Terms (thanks for the suggestion econ21) rather than 90 and 10 year chunks.

Very well done. It's an incredibly useful thread and will be essential for anyone re-reading the PBM at a later date. Unfortunately, it's pretty much impossible for people to re-read WOTS due to the many threads and the lack of any overall organization. That won't be the case with KOTR because of your work.

AussieGiant
06-26-2007, 16:50
Right on TC!! OK impressive stuff there mate.

Really a great job.

GeneralHankerchief
06-26-2007, 19:59
I've just had a look at the latest save. Why are so many settlements on auto-manage?

TinCow
06-26-2007, 20:10
I haven't looked at the save myself, but I have noticed in other games (PBM and SP) that sometimes a save loads up with cities on automanage even when they weren't when the game was saved. From experience, this seems to be due to patching/modding differences between the game version that saved it and the game version that loaded it.

Just speculation, of course. FactionHeir can probably shed more light on the matter.

econ21
06-26-2007, 20:23
I was surprised by the automanaging too. It leads to some poor outcomes - IIRC, if you end the turn, Aleppo, with its military build automanage, will crank out 3 Dismounted Imperial Knights - which are inferior to DFKs (and neither a priority for fighting Mongols).


Igno?

Could you atleast upload the save, that only takes 30 seconds

Seconded.

FactionHeir
06-26-2007, 20:23
I wouldn't know why really, in terms of automanage. If TC is right though, the most likely cuplrit file for that would be the buildings files (export_descr_building) that differs between players, so it would be prudent to check whether you currently have said file in your data folder while loading up the save game or not. I'm guessing it might be due to something else though.

So far, I haven't seen any automanage in the other savegames I got from people except one from TC (where Paris was on automanage) and Ignoramus, where half the empire is on automanage.

TinCow
06-26-2007, 20:35
Paris was on after one of my saves? I know I've been negligent in installing the VnV patch for a few of the Library updates, but I make sure to get the right one before fighting any battles. Hmm....

FactionHeir
06-26-2007, 20:38
The save where you fought at Zagreb was fine, but the one after you took out the army near Budapest had the problem. Didn't think much of it though, as everything else was in order after checking.

I'd be surprised if not installing the vnvs properly would cause this, but can't hurt to confirm with Ignoramus whether he is using it/has it properly installed.
So: Ignoramus :feedback:

TinCow
06-26-2007, 20:59
Was there a VnV update between the time when I fought those two battles?

FactionHeir
06-26-2007, 21:02
Nope, last update was before my chancellorship.
I'm currently thinking whether there is anything left that needs fixing without going too far away from vanilla traits and ancs.

GeneralHankerchief
06-26-2007, 21:10
Could it have anything to do with one player (the majority of us) turning off automanaging via Game Options and another (Ignoramus) leaving it on?

Also, off-topic, but I'm playing a game as Venice and I see good old Otto von Kassel as a lone unit in my territory - but he's the Milanese faction heir! :laugh4: Still deciding what to do with him.

gibsonsg91921
06-26-2007, 21:14
wow i thought otto was more noble than to accept a bribe

TinCow
06-26-2007, 21:14
Well, Otto does have a history of serving the highest bidder...

Bribes, perhaps not. Brides...

Stig
06-26-2007, 22:27
*slaps Igno with a wet fish*

I know earlier chancellors were a bit quick but you're really overdoing it ~D


Why are so many settlements on auto-manage?
Hence my addition to the Thorn building queue

OverKnight
06-27-2007, 00:38
Also, off-topic, but I'm playing a game as Venice and I see good old Otto von Kassel as a lone unit in my territory - but he's the Milanese faction heir! :laugh4: Still deciding what to do with him.

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!. . .wait faction heir? Hmmmmmm. Could be worse.

As TC pointed out, a Milanese Princess most likely picked him off. He starts out in Innsbruck and is the closest unmarried HRE avatar to Milan. Since he's just a starter general and not in the family tree he makes a good target, because he never gets married unless MoH or a Princess makes it possible.

Still the Milanese must be in a bad way if he's heir, but I can never tell with the crack headed selection mechanics.

Still good for Alternate Universe Otto, he's a social climber anywhere. :2thumbsup:

GH, if you're at war with Milan, well. . .you know what to do. Otherwise it might be amusing to see if you can bribe him to your side, but his loyalty is probably sky high at this point, and he is faction heir.

TevashSzat
06-27-2007, 00:56
I say we surround him with military units to prevent him from moving and then use him as training for our new assasins :2thumbsup:

GeneralHankerchief
06-27-2007, 01:37
I'm currently allied with the HRE - too bad there's no "send prisoner to City X" option. I wonder if they would have paid me to take care of him for them. Oh well.

Northnovas
06-27-2007, 03:25
I would like to throw in my two cents for the work done in the KotR PBEM. As I wait for a Chancellor report I am glad that I can surf through the threads and read the good work done by Overnight for the history thread and Tin Cow with the library thread.
This PBEM also got started with a good base from econ21. The contributions in the stories and battle reports by everyone have been excellent and it sure helps keep the interest when things are quiet.
It's been very enjoyable and addictive to log in and see what is happening. My last SP campaign was finished just as this PBEM started. I haven't been able to be attentive enough for another SP game while this is going on.

Okay that is the commercial break for this PBEM for anyone lurking and thinking of joining.
Still waiting for some report..............:inquisitive:

GeneralHankerchief
06-27-2007, 04:26
Sorry for not putting up the Conrad finale in the meantime. Dealing with wired 7-10 year-olds does not leave me in a state conductive to good writing.

-edit- Seems as if Ignoramus is enjoying the .Org Arcade instead of posting a report... :no:

Ignoramus
06-27-2007, 06:04
I really am sorry guys. I can only play MTW2 on my older brother's computer(the one I'm using at the moment can't handle it), and he's been really busy lately, so I haven't had a chance to upload the save game. I will try and get both report and save up within the next 3 hours. Once again, I apologise for the long delay.

econ21
06-27-2007, 10:06
I will try and get both report and save up within the next 3 hours.

Three hours have passed. It's not clear to me why you need to use your brother's computer for any significant period of time in order to write a report or upload a save.

You could write an annual Chancellor’s report for 1240 without loading up the game - just tell us what happened. You don’t need to go into the detailed itemisation that Factionheir did; you could just write a broad brush speech to the Diet highlighting the big events and issues - as I did with Henry. I actually prefer that approach - it's more in character; people who want the nitty gritty could upload the save.

And on the save, just upload the start of 1241 savegame. You don’t need to use your brother’s computer for more than 30 seconds; just copy the relevant file off it. A savegame and a report would keep other players’ happy while waiting for you to have some serious gaming time on your brother’s computer.


I really am sorry guys. I can only play MTW2 on my older brother's computer(the one I'm using at the moment can't handle it), and he's been really busy lately, so I haven't had a chance to upload the save game.

There's no need to apologise, but we do need to find a work around this problem.

The ideal thing for you to do is negotiate with your brother to have some access to his computer - say one hour every two days. If that is not possible, we may have to think of a more drastic solution - an emergency Diet to change the Chancellor or perhaps you sending me orders, and I implementing them for you.

What kills most PBMs is people who are supposed to be playing the game realising they can’t find the time and not making alternative arrangements. To deal with that problem in one of the most successful MTW PBMs (an Almohad one), Kukrikhan imposed a 48 hour reporting requirement on Kings.

I propose we do something like that here. Chancellors should post their progress within 48 hours being given the savegame - specifically, either uploading a new save for another player to fight or posting a start of new turn save for players to inspect. The penalty for not making such progress is an Emergency Diet session (which, if nothing else, buys the Chancellor more time to sort out whatever is stopping them making progress).

This might be a bit draconian but I think it is reasonable - what do people think?

Warluster
06-27-2007, 10:16
I reckon its fine, the 48 hour rule sounds good.

Like you said econ, if you have a USB stick Ignoramus, maybe you could copy the save from it to another computer with internet (If you don't have your own internet usable computer, maybe a library one?)

I also think, that once you've played the turn, straight away you should write up the report unless you have a urgent matter (like cooking dinner :P)

Good thinking, 99.

OverKnight
06-27-2007, 10:19
Considering it has taken a week to advance one turn in the game and we still don't have a summary of what has occured, something needs to be done. OOC concerns can also be grounds for an Emegency Diet Session.

Ignoramus
06-27-2007, 10:20
The save's uploaded. It's been up for almost 2 hours.

econ21
06-27-2007, 10:25
The save's uploaded. It's been up for almost 2 hours.

Thanks. Please post a link when you upload a save (in the uploader, go to view files, right click, save short cut and then paste here). E.g.:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1242.zip

Let's start the clock on the next savegame - please can we have one either for a battle or for 1244 within 48 hours of this post?

I've just uploaded the savegame and Xdeathfire has been ambushed by the French. Have you PMd him about this Ignoramus? He has 48 hours to fight the battle.

FactionHeir
06-27-2007, 11:41
I agree with the limit econ. I have been starting to lose interest with nothing happening at all.

Stig
06-27-2007, 12:14
I agree with the limit econ. I have been starting to lose interest with nothing happening at all.
Aye same here, the reason Ansehelm won't run for chancellor in the upcoming months is because I simply don't have the time.

Stig
06-27-2007, 12:27
Igno!!! :furious3: :furious3: :furious3:

I asked you to retreat Ansehelm to Thorn so that he could build an army, and now he's even further from Thorn than before.

YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THAT EDICT, REMEMBER!!!

I know that a chancellor can do as he wants, but you can atleast listen to the nobles.
Thus: I want you to move Ansehelm to Thorn immediatly (he can fight that army in front of him and then retreat in the direction of Thorn) and as I said, take Thorn of Automanage.

:furious3: :furious3: :furious3:

econ21
06-27-2007, 12:39
Stig: it would be best to save the :furious3: for the Diet.


We should keep things friendly OOC. ~:grouphug:


Also, if we have the OOC threat of an Emergency Diet session for slow progress by the Chancellor, it would be good to have some in-character :furious3: to justify such a session, if it were to come about.

FactionHeir
06-27-2007, 12:46
I can see econ is enjoying the role of Elberhard and has taken some of it OOC too :grin2:

StoneCold
06-27-2007, 12:53
econ, your handle is still Kaiser Henry... :P Still can't give up your Kaiser seat? :P

TevashSzat
06-27-2007, 13:01
Got the save, will most likely fight it tonight

OverKnight
06-27-2007, 13:22
Having looked at the latest save, we need a report to explain what is going on :dizzy2: .

Did we just crossover into Didz's Scottish Blog?

I am very confused.

StoneCold
06-27-2007, 13:35
OK, why did you say that?

Stuperman
06-27-2007, 13:37
Cause there is some business with scotland? econ seems to have 'accidently' announce something to that effect in the diet.

Stig
06-27-2007, 14:15
Stig: it would be best to save the :furious3: for the Diet.
Only when Ansehelm is pissed off. Now I'm pissed off, how hard is it to do what people ask?


Also, if we have the OOC threat of an Emergency Diet session for slow progress by the Chancellor
No need for an Emergency Diet, we don't need new Edicts, just a new chancellor in that case.

StoneCold
06-27-2007, 14:18
I think the bavarians are also pissed off, maybe you could just get enough pple to call an emergency session to change the chancellor.

econ21
06-27-2007, 15:30
Only when Ansehelm is pissed off. Now I'm pissed off, how hard is it to do what people ask?

Please don't take game events personally. I know it's frustrating, but by the rules, the Chancellor is perfectly at liberty not to do what people ask him to do with their character. He's kind of like the football player with the ball and you are asking him to pass it to you; he does not have to.

He can even disobey edicts - the consequences should be played out in character.

Ansehelm can be pissed off; Stig should chalk it up to part of PBMing's rich tapestry.

McIwoo
06-27-2007, 16:25
tackle the ball carrier even if he is your team mate I say :smash:

I find it spices up the game and I think we need a lile :furious3: IC anyway !

Ituralde
06-27-2007, 17:07
So I guess, the consent is that we wait for the Chancellor's Report, before reacting to the current save?

econ21
06-27-2007, 17:12
So I guess, the consent is that we wait for the Chancellor's Report, before reacting to the current save?

That's the norm, but given the lack of feedback, I did not feel constrained to have Elberhard honour it.

Bear in mind that it seems to be a mid-1242 save - I guess taxes may be adjusted to avoid some of the red faces (in game and out of game) later on.

Stig
06-27-2007, 17:32
Well, we already are mid 1242 but still lack a chancellor report for 1240 and 1242.
I give Igno 24 hours before Ansehelm returns to Rome to start shouting in the Diet.

Ituralde
06-27-2007, 17:43
I already noticed that red face in the 1240 save, while fighting Arnold's battle, and said to myself, I will mention that should it be in a later savegame.
Just a displeased Austrian Elector! :2thumbsup:

GeneralHankerchief
06-27-2007, 19:13
Re: Stig's latest post in the Diet

Okay, I'll edit it out. You do yours too.

Stig
06-27-2007, 19:17
Heh, I wanted to post here, but I have to much tabs open


*blames Firefox*
:furious3:

AussieGiant
06-27-2007, 19:41
Guy's,

OOC you can't get annoyed as Igno actions. What Econ states is very good advise.


This is what I see;

Here we are steam rolling the AI, and looking for ways to limit our total domination of the game, and at the first sign of some IC role play issues that are knocking us of our total domination plan, we all go bonkers.

Come on fella's...role play it...this is what it's all about.

Keep in mind that OOC it's just a game.

If you want to be Power Players who have all the good gear and get to be invicible then you've missed the point by a long shot.

Let Igno do what he's doing...it's certainly generated the most excitment I've seen in quite some time.

Personally I'd like us all to feel a set back or two, just so we know what it's like.

GeneralHankerchief
06-27-2007, 19:43
My reasons for impeaching him are strictly IC. He violated the Charter on multiple occasions and Conrad believes that his sort of behavior should not be allowed to stand.

FactionHeir
06-27-2007, 19:45
Erm so you want to explain to me how buying off 2 english settlements and laying siege to 4 additional settlements is stopping our steamroll and helping our game?

Stuperman
06-27-2007, 19:46
IC, I'm furious, the damned witch still haunts us.

OOC, I'd just like to know what's going on, maybe have some IC reasoning presented. but AG makes a good point, we wanted contorversy and problems, it now looks like we have that now.

edit: laying siege to 4 settlements!?! all I know about was Gaza and Corsica (which we have 'clearance to')

Stig
06-27-2007, 20:07
OOC I simply think that Igno's is ruining the game with what he's doing.
He's atleast ruining it for me. Much more of this and the fun is over for me.

AussieGiant
06-27-2007, 20:18
My reasons for impeaching him are strictly IC. He violated the Charter on multiple occasions and Conrad believes that his sort of behavior should not be allowed to stand.

Ok then...away we go GH, but IC.

Nothing like a few set backs to realise how much we like playing the game :)

gibsonsg91921
06-27-2007, 20:20
i think once igno comes back itll be fine and fun - a little controversy never hurt anyone. it takes controversy to get the Diet started. heinrich attacking the pope, peter mad about durazzo, lothar insulting henry, and now a seemingly incompetent chancellor. all these are getting activity going and its fun.

Stuperman
06-27-2007, 20:21
OOC I simply think that Igno's is ruining the game with what he's doing.
He's atleast ruining it for me. Much more of this and the fun is over for me.

be like a snowflake and chill.

I think the biggest problem is that while the game hasn't advanced in the last 12 hours (AFAIK) there has been a TON of IC and OOC speculation, and all that does is wind people up. Keep in mind that if we get REALLY REALLY desperate wou could revert ot an older save (like incredibly desperate).

I understand though, many people have a lot invested in this PBM (almost all my posts are in this PBM alone), it'd be crappy to see it die this far in.

AussieGiant
06-27-2007, 20:56
I agree Stups, but I think we could go through a hell of a lot of downs before it was irreversible in the actual game. It's 1242 or something, we are about half way through the total time alotment.

Even if we pullled out all the stops I'd say we'd be back dominating the game in 50 to 100 years even if we lost half of everything right now.

Stig
06-27-2007, 20:59
Even if we pullled out all the stops I'd say we'd be back dominating the game in 50 to 100 years even if we lost half of everything right now.
We could try ~D

AussieGiant
06-27-2007, 21:01
We could try ~D

See Stiggy, now you're talking!! :laugh4:

Stig
06-27-2007, 21:03
*Hands over Austria to Venice*

like that? :bounce:

StoneCold
06-27-2007, 21:07
Ya, that would definitely put AG into the Emergency Diet now camp... :D

TevashSzat
06-27-2007, 23:52
I just finished battle and won with a heroic victory. Ignoramus has some explaining to do, but I suppose we can just give away or abandon any settlement that ends up being taken this chancellorship.

AussieGiant
06-27-2007, 23:53
We can certainly do a whole lot of things IC to correct any issues that are left over.

personally I think this is great fun :laugh4:

GeneralHankerchief
06-28-2007, 00:29
Ignoramus, I have to ask: Were you aware of this problem regarding your brother's computer when you were running for Chancellor?

FactionHeir
06-28-2007, 01:38
He is, as far as I know, as he did not fight his battles due to the same reason during my chancellorship.

TevashSzat
06-28-2007, 02:51
I just posted a rant IC. This may pose a porblem for us, not that he is not following some of the edicts in terms of what it meant in the minds of their creators, but by the length of time for him to get chancellor reports up and answer our questions

Ignoramus
06-28-2007, 03:20
I did not know that I would have problems when I ran for Chancellor. However, I shall make sure that there any never any delays as long as this again.

gibsonsg91921
06-28-2007, 03:31
its not the delays that bother me IC so much, its the disregard for edicts that are gonna kill ya.

Northnovas
06-28-2007, 03:38
The Chancellor has free rein and a lot of discretion I just want to know what is going on. It's not what is done; that makes for good drama. It's the let me know when it gets done.

Ignoramus
06-28-2007, 04:12
I doubt Ulrich will get killed by the Diet. His honour won't allow that.

Ignoramus
06-28-2007, 04:41
gibsonsons, you've got a battle against the Russians.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1242-3.zip

Cecil XIX
06-28-2007, 05:01
Nope, last update was before my chancellorship.
I'm currently thinking whether there is anything left that needs fixing without going too far away from vanilla traits and ancs.

This is just a thought, but is it possible make certain acillaries requirements for certain traits?

If it is, then you could create a Count/Duke ancillary that would allow us to get traits without having to actually be in the settlement, making our avatars the governor of a settlement both in the game and the PBEM. There could even be a 'Chancellor' ancillary that would avoid the problem of certain Emperors taking the blame for the assassination that certain Chancellors order. *wink wink*.

If it isn't, then forget I said anything.

Stig
06-28-2007, 07:58
Why has Gibson got a battle to fight, the last time I looked he was totally on the free.
It is I who has some Poles to fight because I want to get Ansehelm back to Thorn.


I must also say that I more or less had it with this game, the fun is almost over. Maybe Igno likes it, I don't, grow up kid.

Ignoramus
06-28-2007, 08:07
Peter's expedition met a rather large army of Russians, they couldn't retreat as they had no movement points left.

Oh, and Stig, there's an IC reason why Ulrich couldn't send Ansehelm on the expedition.

Warluster
06-28-2007, 08:09
Ignoramus, is Siegfred the new prince?

Stig
06-28-2007, 08:11
Peter's expedition met a rather large army of Russians, they couldn't retreat as they had no movement points left.
So you killed him, geez no people will like you

Oh, and Stig, there's an IC reason why Ulrich couldn't send Ansehelm on the expedition.
Which is?

Ignoramus
06-28-2007, 08:17
I didn't send Peter to his death. Look, I was the one who lost an avatar in the most annoying way possible - by assasination. I know how annoying it is to suddenly lose your avatar. I do not send generals deliberately to their deaths.

It concerned the election.

Warluster: Yes.

econ21
06-28-2007, 09:23
all I know about was Gaza and Corsica (which we have 'clearance to')

Why do we have clearance to take Gaza? CA10.2 implies we need an edict to take a new province - we have one for the two Milanese islands and Moscow; I don't think we have one for anywhere else.

Stig
06-28-2007, 09:55
He doesn't seem to care and ruins the game with it.

We agreed OOC on less expansion, why break something like that? Unless you wish to ruin the game for others.

And he still needs to answer me on that Crusade. I've asked the question multiple times. Not answering is simply rude and shows no respect (hence why I don't give anything to you).

econ21
06-28-2007, 10:06
Stig, please cool down. Ignoramus has told you that Anselhelm is not leading the crusade because of the election. If he has made a secret deal in character, he does not have to reveal the details to you out of character.

Stig
06-28-2007, 10:19
And where did he do that, all he said was is:

Oh, and Stig, there's an IC reason why Ulrich couldn't send Ansehelm on the expedition.

He still needs to give the reason

Ituralde
06-28-2007, 10:40
It really is important to relax a little here. We have every right to be angry with Ulrich Hümmel, but we clearly should not be angry with Ignoramus.

I don't mind a Chancellor once in a while that is not afraid of making enemies. None the less the rate of it is astounding. :beam:


Edit: Oh and yes, it seems like I'm the new Prince. Wanted to let this evolve later on, but I'm not afraid to use my Princehood should the Dukes decide to not act.

Stig
06-28-2007, 10:49
Gibson still needs to fight a battle, so I say to him: take your time before you get your character killed. (and in 48 hours refuse to fight the battle (they might not even attack you afterall))

Than the dukes have a change to act, or the Prinz.

And I have nothing against Igno, I think it's just rude that he doesn't answer my question. He doesn't need to give an entire explanation, but he can say more than:

Oh, and Stig, there's an IC reason why Ulrich couldn't send Ansehelm on the expedition.

The only thing I have against him OOC is that he very well knows that he's killing the Franconian House. He send Peter to death and mostlikely Ansehelm will die in a few turns.

Ignoramus
06-28-2007, 11:43
How many times do I need to tell you that I am "not" trying to kill off anyone. I didn't order Peter to attack the Russians, they attacked him. I tried to retreat, but I found there were no movement points remaining. I was genuinely suprised when that Russian army appeared. I don't have "grudges" against Houses, I try and play the game by three measures:

1). How I would play normally in a campaign.
2). How my character would run the empire.
3.) According to the Diet(can be overriden by 2, if the character has disloyal traits).

I am sorry if you are annoyed by the fact that Ansehelm isn't going on the expedition. I'm not happy at destroying someone's fun, but "nameless people" required that of me before they would vote for me. Why, I don't know, but in order to win the election I had to agree. It would be unfair for me to reveal who the people were, and so that's all I can say. I hope that answers your question.

Please don't attack me OOC; attack Ulrich Hummel IC all you like, but I don't have a grudge or malice against anyone. If some of my actions are taking some of the fun out of the game, I apologise. But you never know, I might get impeached and someone else might be Chancellor(hopefully not).

Stig
06-28-2007, 11:48
Yup that answer my question

And I think those people are pretty sad indeed

But the least you could do is allow me to attack the Poles Ansehelm is stuck to and retreat to Thorn

BTW I do know who asked not to send me on that crusade. It's someone with his special secret order, and he knows I'm right

And you have the choice: ignoring an edict or ignoring some voters, one is worse than the other

FactionHeir
06-28-2007, 12:00
This is just a thought, but is it possible make certain acillaries requirements for certain traits?

If it is, then you could create a Count/Duke ancillary that would allow us to get traits without having to actually be in the settlement, making our avatars the governor of a settlement both in the game and the PBEM. There could even be a 'Chancellor' ancillary that would avoid the problem of certain Emperors taking the blame for the assassination that certain Chancellors order. *wink wink*.

If it isn't, then forget I said anything.

The current limitations in the system require that you are inside a settlement to receive its benefits or change the system every turn to account for changes in the settlement. Also, stuff like assassination works by LeaderOrderedAssassination, so it will automatically give it to the factionleader and cannot give it to another avatar. I can think of a small workaround for this but you would need to change the files every diet at the very least and only works if a trait has enough points to show up on the sheet, not for minor points. Also won't work if the leader has an antitrait to the trait.

In other news, looks like Franconia and Austria are up for calling the emergency diet. If Swabia or Bavaria join, it is up to the Prince to confirm it.

econ21
06-28-2007, 12:41
In other news, looks like Franconia and Austria are up for calling the emergency diet. If Swabia or Bavaria join, it is up to the Prince to confirm it.

We only need the 3 Dukes. The amendment was that EITHER the Prince OR the 3 Dukes can call an Emergency session.

EDIT: As far as I can make out, only the Duke of Franconia has explicitly called for an Emergency session.

Ignoramus
06-28-2007, 12:44
I guess it doesn't look good for Ulrich.:laugh4:

FactionHeir
06-28-2007, 12:49
Thanks for the clarification econ, must have missed the or part.
What would Henry say to this? :grin:

Stig
06-28-2007, 12:55
What would Henry say to this?
He would turn in his grave


I guess it doesn't look good for Ulrich
You could have expected it


BTW who becomes chancellor if it comes to an emergency session, does Warluster get it as Kaiser, or will we have a normal vote?

FactionHeir
06-28-2007, 13:01
Good question. Dunno if Warluister can exercise it during an emergency session or not though.

Stig
06-28-2007, 13:06
If he gets the choice I would advice him to wait.
If we get a Emergency Session now the next chancellor will have 18 years instead of 20 I take it, so 1 turn less, tho that doesn't matter ofcourse. But still.

And btw, if we get this Session it will be purely about a new chancellor, do we also need new edicts, and an edict to keep all the taken edicts in Diet 10, etc?

FactionHeir
06-28-2007, 13:23
Normal edicts stay in place, additional edicts can be added.
New chancellor would have 16 years really as 1242 is about over.

Stig
06-28-2007, 13:32
Well the turn still needs to be finished (that can also mean tax adjustments and the like)


Normal edicts stay in place, additional edicts can be added.
Ah danke :bow:

Stuperman
06-28-2007, 13:58
@econ, I only ment that we had 'clearace to ' take Corsica, I should have said "besieging 4 settlements? I only know of 2, Gaza and Corsica and we only have clearance to attack Corsica"

What's the policy on marrying daughters off, I'm a little annoyed that as her father I wasn't even notified that my daughter had been asked, I understand why I wasn't told for OOC reasons though, having the game hang while I mull potential sutors would be tedious.

IC the Von Kassel Name is an interesting twist.

Ituralde
06-28-2007, 14:45
Well acutally an Emergency Session with the impeachment of a Chancellor would be unchartered territory.


3.7. Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.


That is the only ruling I could find that even mentions impeachment.


2.3 He also must obey Imperial edicts and the constitution (these rules) or face political consequences.

This is the part which even points to the existence of this impeachment process being an option. Everything else has so far not been written down.
So maybe this would be a good time to think OOC about how an impeachment should be handled.

I guess it would be a vote that needs a 2/3rd majority to pass? More? Less?
Also considering the Chancellor, since 3.7 mentions that upon impeachment of the Chancellor a regular Election takes place, this would mean that the elected Chancellor would govern for a complete new 10 turns!

This would mean a shift of the future Diet sessions. But more importantly older Edicts would expire after 10 turns, from their original point of passing. Maybe something should be incorporated that an impeached Chancellor must follow the Edicts passed in the Diet before the impeachment?

Also, since an impeachment would probably occur at the end of an Emergency Diet, shouldn't there be a regular Diet session right after it? After all, we would need candidates and everything to get an election going.

Just the things I thought of right now. This clearly needs clarification, otherwise everything is up to the Emperor. Although that's not a too bad thought in itself. :beam:

AussieGiant
06-28-2007, 15:00
Hell this is fun guys!! :laugh4:

Stigs gone :furious3:

While everyone else is swinging between :wall: :whip: :smash: and :thumbsdown:

Stig
06-28-2007, 15:13
I'm not gone yet

AussieGiant
06-28-2007, 15:23
But Stiggy, can I call you Stiggy:2thumbsup:

You do seem to have been the most annoyed at all this. I know your character is going in a different direction than you wanted, and I know that would also annoy me a lot, but you can't say it's boring now can you?:yes:

Stig
06-28-2007, 15:26
It's not boring no.
But my definition of a game means it's fun, and as it goes now it's not everything but fun.

Hell I don't care if some don't want me to go on crusade, but I do care if he just throws away a reinforcement army (because I might be able to use that for a crusade). Send Peter on a suicide mission, and ignores Ansehelm so he can be attacked next turn and die.
And I'm even more pissed that the dukes don't want to call an Emergency Session yet, maybe the Prinz should do it afterall.


2.3 He also must obey Imperial edicts and the constitution (these rules) or face political consequences.
Now, where are the consequences?

FactionHeir
06-28-2007, 15:28
Would be up to econ as gamemaster to lay out I suppose.

econ21
06-28-2007, 15:29
So maybe this would be a good time to think OOC about how an impeachment should be handled.

IIRC, I think there was something about impeachment in the draft charter, but it got taken out after people queried it.

I'd be inclined to keep the procedure simple: 2/3 majority to impeach; if majority achieved, fresh election to replace the Chancellor (Kaiser could use perogative to rule); new Chancellor serves out old one's remaining term and is bound by pre-existing Edicts. We could propose all that as a Charter Amendment if we do get as far as an Emergency Session.

Personally, I'd favour making an Emergency Session fast n furious - one day's debate; one's day vote.

Stig
06-28-2007, 15:36
Would be up to econ as gamemaster to lay out I suppose.
Nope, what I mean is Hummel (Igno) is ignoring Edicts and he is not getting punished for it. The punishment should be impeachment.

econ21
06-28-2007, 15:44
2.3 He also must obey Imperial edicts and the constitution (these rules) or face political consequences.

Now, where are the consequences?

On the "political consequences", the key word is "political" - ie "in character".

The Diet has to take a view on how to deal with breaking the edicts or Charter. We have the Emergency Session safeguard. I admit the impeachment process is vague to non-existent, but we can use the session to introduce a Charter Amendment to rectify that.

That's the nice thing about the "democratic" nature of WotS PBMs - they have a flexible mechanism for dealing with this kind of in game (or even out of game) crisis.


Nope, what I mean is Hummel (Igno) is ignoring Edicts and he is not getting punished for it. The punishment should be impeachment.

That's your view. So far, you have not been able to persuade the Kaiser or the Dukes.

Stig
06-28-2007, 15:47
So far, you have not been able to persuade the Kaiser or the Dukes.
Because their characters are not in danger of getting destroyed.
How would you feel if you've spend over an hour writing something and later on it isn't needed anymore?

Ituralde
06-28-2007, 15:48
Would be up to econ as gamemaster to lay out I suppose.

Actually it would be up to the current Emperor. After all he presides over all disputes concerning the rules of the game.

This makes the Kaiser extremely powerful, especially concerning stuff not governed by the Charter. Right now, as Prince I'd be inclined to vote against anything that might impede me once, I'm Kaiser. :2thumbsup:

gibsonsg91921
06-28-2007, 15:53
hey stiggy im not worried about peter - if the battle turns south ill withdraw him and fight with my other schmucks.

gibsonsg91921
06-28-2007, 16:32
hey about gaza - if he doesnt assault and just maintains the siege, the garrison army is reduced. in iggy's defense, thats what he meant by reduction of gaza

FactionHeir
06-28-2007, 16:36
And if the Egyptians sally or send a reinforcement army to attack Fredericus we automatically capture Gaza by winning the battle....
And why are knights being sent to besiege Caesarea.

McIwoo
06-28-2007, 16:41
c'mon guys, I understand Stig if he had put some efforts into something that cannot be used anymore, but some political conspiracy of some sort can only bring fun into the game.

Perhaps it's time we find a system to play civil wars...after all as far as I know (prolly the end of my nose though) that's what frequently happened in the hre at that time anyway.

If your char dies (let's hope they don't!) pick up another one...it's just a game. Okay now I can run fast to the exit before I get slaughtered :furious3:

econ21
06-28-2007, 17:10
hey stiggy im not worried about peter - if the battle turns south ill withdraw him and fight with my other schmucks.

The battle looks hopeless to me. How are you set in terms of real life playing time? Do you think you'll be able to deal with it tonight?

It looks like Stig will also be attacked by the AI, so let the AI carry on it's move after you are done. If I am right, and Anselhelm is attacked, upload the save and post here, so Stig can pick it up without any further delay.

AussieGiant
06-28-2007, 17:17
There is more than enough spare avatars.

I'd prefer a few deaths in a battle. That would be great and far more interesting than every avatar dying of old age.

Pick a new character and move on I say.

gibsonsg91921
06-28-2007, 17:27
yeah, it probably is hopeless - im not a great battler anyways. im gonna give it a good shot, maybe have like a glorious defeat that still kicks them to the curb.

but im kinda attached to ol' pétey, so i dont want to just throw him away.

Dutch_guy
06-28-2007, 17:31
We only need the 3 Dukes. The amendment was that EITHER the Prince OR the 3 Dukes can call an Emergency session.

EDIT: As far as I can make out, only the Duke of Franconia has explicitly called for an Emergency session.

Just so I don't have to edit my IC post, that's very true. Currently, if this session is to take off, we need two more.

:balloon2:

Stuperman
06-28-2007, 17:31
@ stig, political sacrifice now (holding thron against huge odds) can translate into political gain later. Just keep that in mind ~;)

FactionHeir
06-28-2007, 17:31
Maybe you are as lucky as Hans and rout with only yourself or at most 1 GB remaining :grin2:

AussieGiant
06-28-2007, 17:37
yeah, it probably is hopeless - im not a great battler anyways. im gonna give it a good shot, maybe have like a glorious defeat that still kicks them to the curb.

but im kinda attached to ol' pétey, so i dont want to just throw him away.


That's the spirit Gibbo!! Give em hell. Great men making great sacrifices is what will get talked about at the end of the day OOC.

Sigismunds murder will never be forgotten, neither will Leopold last hurrah with the Mongols.

With avatars to spare I would have thought a few people would have worked that out by now.

Dutch_guy
06-28-2007, 17:41
yeah, it probably is hopeless - im not a great battler anyways. im gonna give it a good shot, maybe have like a glorious defeat that still kicks them to the curb.

but im kinda attached to ol' pétey, so i dont want to just throw him away.

Well, your death will certainly be cause for a heated debate in the Diet.

Considering the circumstances...

:balloon2:

Stig
06-28-2007, 17:49
There is more than enough spare avatars.
3 old Franconians are going to die, they are going to take those.

Sides as I said, I put a couple of hours into Ansehelm, I don't want to throw that away because Igno wants to play a childish game.


@ stig, political sacrifice now (holding thron against huge odds) can translate into political gain later. Just keep that in mind
Sacrifice as in dying?
I'd rather survive.

I don't see why I'm not allowed to attack this turn and retreat in the direction of Thorn.
The only thing that stops me from that is Igno's complete ignorance and game ruining.

econ21
06-28-2007, 17:49
yeah, it probably is hopeless - im not a great battler anyways. im gonna give it a good shot, maybe have like a glorious defeat that still kicks them to the curb.

but im kinda attached to ol' pétey, so i dont want to just throw him away.

I can understand that - this would be a pretty meaningless death IMO. IIRC, you have about three spears against a full stack of cavalry and artillery. If you do want to survive, be careful. The Russian horses will probably be faster that your BG and will catch you if you rout (or flee) some distance from the edge of the map. Time your exit carefully.

Good luck. :sweatdrop:

gibsonsg91921
06-28-2007, 18:03
geez why bother even fighting lol im just gonna run for it with pete and have the spears raise hell

Stig
06-28-2007, 18:19
You can't run if you can't retreat

Dutch_guy
06-28-2007, 18:29
You can't run if you can't retreat

That's right.

It's pretty much a fight to the death, by the sound of it.

:balloon2:

Stig
06-28-2007, 18:31
He does not have to fight, he can also let himself be attacked next turn and retreat, with a bit of luck he'll make it to Thorn

Stig
06-28-2007, 19:13
Right Econ and I had some discussion (with Gibson as the CC)

After Peter gets under attack I get attacked, so would Gibson allow me to autoresolve I could go on directly.
Waiting on his reaction I already did that just to try: and the following happened:
Peter autoresolves and survives
Ansehelm retreats
Ansehelm fights anyway

All nobles survive

Here's the save if Gibson agrees to it:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1244.zip

econ21
06-28-2007, 20:00
OK, we'll wait for Gibson to post yay or nay here. He can unpick things if he is unhappy with what Stig has done and work from the save Ignoramus posted instead.

Stig
06-28-2007, 20:03
Which I doubt

AussieGiant
06-28-2007, 20:26
Well guy's let me know when you want the Emergency Session called.

I can pull the trigger when ever you want now.

There's been some back room action.

Stig
06-28-2007, 20:27
Wait for Gibson to agree with the save or not.

A new year is a good place to start

OverKnight
06-28-2007, 20:36
I'd go ahead and announce it, but just say that the session will officially start after we "hear news" (get the save back) from Peter's Battle. That way we guarantee that no further progress will be made with the save, even if you or the other Dukes are offline, until we've sorted this whole thing out.

Stig
06-28-2007, 20:45
Well when Peter fights his battle I have to fight mine immediatly afterwards (both of us get attacked).

So it all comes down to Gibson

I'm putting no presure on you what so ever m8, no presure :bounce:

AussieGiant
06-28-2007, 20:49
Stups and I have made the call.

Start your engines gentlemen!! It's gonna be huge!! :laugh4:

econ21
06-28-2007, 20:52
Well guy's let me know when you want the Emergency Session called.

I can pull the trigger when ever you want now.

I would go for it. The Diet is pretty lively this time of day. If you wait until tomorrow, it could get off to a quiet start.

Stig
06-28-2007, 20:53
Come to think of it, it doesn't matter if we wait for Gibson or not. It doesn't matter if he agrees, those battles need to be fought.

We can start the Emergency Session, Gibson can decide later on.

Stig
06-28-2007, 20:58
Econ I suggest you make it two days. If I suggest something some players might miss it due to time zones or work or something. If you have one day for Edicts, one day for seconding we don't have this problem.

btw do we need an Edict to overthrow the Chancellor or has that already happened.

Sides we also need people to stand candidate, which might take a while.

I suggest you make it 48, or atleast 36 hours.

Ituralde
06-28-2007, 21:01
As said before in this thread an now IC in the Diet, I have honestly no clue what will happen now. We can solve this OOC or IC, I don't care, maybe IC would be more interesting. Precedence in the making! :laugh4:

I belive there should be discussion, then there should be a proposal of impeachement, which after seconding can be voted upon. If it is successful, there will be another Diet session where new Edicts could be proposed and of course the next Chancellor would make his speech and afterwards stand for election.

Stig
06-28-2007, 21:04
I belive there should be discussion, then there should be a proposal of impeachement, which after seconding can be voted upon. If it is successful, there will be another Diet session where new Edicts could be proposed and of course the next Chancellor would make his speech and afterwards stand for election.
Hey I said that IC

*chases Ituralde round the house with a wet fish*

thief!!! :whip:


EDIT: @Econ, I just saw that you miss Jobst influence in the table: it's 4 as he has 4 authoriy

Ituralde
06-28-2007, 21:06
Great minds think alike! :yes:

Stig
06-28-2007, 21:41
Just as a reminder, someone still has to come with an Edict so that we can vote for a new chancellor I think. Now nothing happens apart from a couple of edicts, we also need to get a new chancellor.

OverKnight
06-28-2007, 21:44
I will keep track of the proposed legislation of the session and the charges against Chancellor Hummel in the History. If people have grievances and Charter violations in mind, PM me or post in the Diet or OCC and they will be listed as well.

econ21
06-28-2007, 22:16
I think someone should propose an Edict to impeach Hummel. It can be a one line job - the catalogue of grievances does not need to be part of the wording. Elberhard and Anselhelm can't do it as there is the one law per person rule. Who is going to wield the knife?

I'm open to extending the session for another day, but would prefer not to. We've recently had a full Diet session and quite a lot of Edicts & other work needs carrying out (Moscow, the Milanese islands, the Mongols are coming, the Poles and Russians seems uber etc); undoing some of what has been done since that Diet will also take time. To me, the Emergency Session is really one issue: impeach or not. If we close the session in 24 hours, everyone will have a chance to vote before they disappear for the weekend - notably Ignoramus, who seems to lack internet access over weekends.

Stig
06-28-2007, 22:31
Right:
From saturday (or should I say friday late afternoon) I'll be lacking a pc with MTW2 for about a month (I might get to my flat one week or weekend or so, but not more). I however still wish Ansehelm to go on his crusade (as it will come now). DG, Kage, Ituralde, hell more or less anyone can fight my battles. If the odds are clearly in Ansehelms favour (that's anything more then 10:9 really) I'm also happy with an autoresolve.

I'll have a computer with MTW2 again on the 5th of August, as then I need to be in my flat as the next day we begin excavations (archaeology and the like).

OverKnight
06-28-2007, 22:59
Stig and everyone else, it says in the Charter already that we need a 2/3 majority to impeach:


*3.8. The Chancellor can be impeached and removed from office by a 2/3 majority of the Imperial Diet.

I believe econ21's amendment addresses some of the results after a succesful impeachment.

Edit: We're also on page 20 of the current Diet thread, we might want to move now, before we get too far in.

GeneralHankerchief
06-28-2007, 23:10
*prays that Ignoramus doesn't pull a Servius*


Edit: We're also on page 20 of the current Diet thread, we might want to move now, before we get too far in.

I disagree, we're too far in already. Let the Session run its course and we can start a new thread with either a new Chancellor or after the Session expires. Best not to split up official meetings in the Diet.

flyd
06-28-2007, 23:37
Ignoramus can't really pull a complete Servius. The existence of a civil war and its mechanics in WOTS were decided OOC because we wanted to end the PBM then, and do so in an interesting way. The Impeachment poll of 261 BC included OOC voting for PBM end.

Hummel might yet make it through the session ok, even Servius wasn't impeached the first time. He had to also attack Thrace before losing the support of... a certain person, in order to get himself impeached in the second vote. Funny thing I noticed today when I looked back over the threads, the only motion that passed in the first impeachment vote was one prohibiting standing armies in Italy; that one passed because unlike the other motions, Servius Aemilius voted for it. :laugh4:

TinCow
06-28-2007, 23:50
Dear god, I'm out of town for 36 hours and I've got 14 PMs. Time to start reading...

econ21
06-28-2007, 23:56
Dear god, I'm out of town for 36 hours and I've got 14 PMs. Time to start reading...

I thought you were strangely quiet. It was nearly 15 PMs - earlier in the present crisis, I was thinking of contacting you OOC to ask you to help sort things out.

Gibson: what's your verdict on Stig's save - are you happy with it or do you want to try your luck?

Stig
06-29-2007, 00:00
Gibson: what's your verdict on Stig's save - are you happy with it or do you want to try your luck?
He agrees ... said so in a PM

econ21
06-29-2007, 00:03
OK, then whatever the outcome of the impeachment, the official save is the one Stig uploaded:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1244.zip

gibsonsg91921
06-29-2007, 00:09
wow, i never expected péter would get this bloodthirsty - thats what 0 piety and feeling unappreciated while disrespecting prisoners and being a powerful tournament knight does to you, i guess.

edit: just confirming - what stiggy said is true.

Dutch_guy
06-29-2007, 00:13
wow, i never expected péter would get this bloodthirsty - thats what 0 piety and feeling unappreciated while disrespecting prisoners and being a powerful tournament knight does to you, i guess.

edit: just confirming - what stiggy said is true.

So does this mean you're still alive then, did you win ? The last exchange between you and Stig confused me a bit...

:balloon2:

Stig
06-29-2007, 00:19
I autoresolved Peter's battle
He lost but survived and retreated on Thorn
Ansehelm got to fight and retreated
Ansehelm got to fight again and I retreated everything to Thorn.

gibsonsg91921
06-29-2007, 00:19
i didnt win - peter autoresolved and he was able to escape, just not his army.

TinCow
06-29-2007, 00:41
econ21, I would like to say that it gives me endless joy to see you RPing Elberhard. One of these days we need to get you an insane avatar.

gibsonsg91921
06-29-2007, 04:04
a "shameful" avatar could be funny too.

Ituralde
06-29-2007, 11:17
Oh man! I've just about had it with the insanity of the Medieval 2 family tree. That must be the strangest feature of the whole game! :furious3:

Can anyone else please confirm that it is NOT possible to marry Lyse von Salza off to Siegfried von Kastillien? It seems there is some mechanic preventing Princesses from marrying Princes, even if they are on opposite sides of the family tree! Well so much for trying to come up with an explanation for why Siegfried is suddenly the heir, might as well go on the Eastern Crusade after all! :furious3:

Just gotta take it, as it is, I guess... :thumbsdown:

econ21
06-29-2007, 11:24
From saturday (or should I say friday late afternoon) I'll be lacking a pc with MTW2 for about a month (I might get to my flat one week or weekend or so, but not more). I however still wish Ansehelm to go on his crusade (as it will come now). DG, Kage, Ituralde, hell more or less anyone can fight my battles. If the odds are clearly in Ansehelms favour (that's anything more then 10:9 really) I'm also happy with an autoresolve.

I'll have a computer with MTW2 again on the 5th of August, as then I need to be in my flat as the next day we begin excavations (archaeology and the like).

Um, I suspect the crusade will be over by August. Generally I am leery about players without computer access being given lots of battles. I think players who can't fight battles should find quieter assignments. In WotS, we had an "Upper House" and "Lower House" distinction that institutionalised that. If players were going away or had tech problems, they went to the Upper House and the Consul ensured they were not put in danger. If we start having lots of proxies, it starts to break the link between the player and the avatar. And giving key commands to avatars whose owners can fight them personally seems as good a way as any of rationing out the battles.

However, there are good in character reasons for Anselhelm leading the crusade and there's also been some bad blood OOC on the issue, so I won't push the point. I do think Anselhelm should have a second player controlled general accompanying him though and perhaps alternate battles between them (with Anselhelm being moved out of the stack for those battles, if he has the higher command, so the second general can benefit from some of the trait bonuses from victories).

On the question of who fights Anselhelm's battles in Stig's absence, I am inclined to say the first Franconian who picks up the savegame. That keeps it "in house", but should ensure the fastest turn around.

Ituralde: If the marrying the Princess part does not work, how about Siegfried winning glory on the Moscow crusade as the rationale for his adoption? That might also help deal with the problem of Stig not being able to fight the crusade battles.

Stig
06-29-2007, 11:45
Well the only nobles available for the crusade will be Franconian nobles I think, and since some old Franconians might die in future one of them can come.
Fritz von Kastillien will be a good choice, as he's close, all others are in the Outremer afaik.
I'm pretty sure either Gunther, Jonas or Fredericus will die of old age before 1260 so Kage, DG or Flydude can take Fritz.
I will have a computer tho, simply no MTW2, I'll keep posting.

Tho maybe I can play the game, but that requires taking it to my parents (as I will be there) and installing it on the PC there, but that depends on the System Requirements.

EDIT: Ah I can maybe fight the battles, but seeing the game is so big and all I'll only install it once I really need to battle (ie. once Ansehelm is really on crusade). Thorn will come under siege, but DG or Gibson can fight those battles.

I've set the department date for the crusade in about 6 turns. It'll be 12 days before we get there.

Sides I'm happy to autoresolve if the battle is in Ansehelms favour.

Ituralde
06-29-2007, 11:55
econ21: Yeah, I'll manage to work something out with Warluster. Just had to vent my frustration there. :beam:

TinCow
06-29-2007, 11:58
FYI, I will be out of town again for about 2 days from this evening until Sunday. I will probably be able to check the forums, but I have no guarantees. Fortunately, it appears that the Emergency Session will delay the attack on Milan for at least a few days.

Stig
06-29-2007, 11:59
Ituralde: If the marrying the Princess part does not work, how about Siegfried winning glory on the Moscow crusade as the rationale for his adoption? That might also help deal with the problem of Stig not being able to fight the crusade battles.
Actually that was the plan I had in mind myself.
But now Warluster wants to bring his Imperial Army after me some time (with an edict ofcourse, as by then it will be 1260), and mostlikely that would give Siegfried the title Prinz.

I think it's a great plan to let Siegfried and Ansehelm go as was the original plan.
That means I won't have to fight battles on a uber slow computer (it gets to the minimum requirements (my little brother uses it to play BF2142) but I doubt it will be quick).

Stuperman
06-29-2007, 14:11
I wouldn't mind if Gerhard went on the crusade as well, he's been in italy for too long, and the riegns of the BHA should be transfered IMHO. The russians bribed part of the BHA, so there's plenty of IC reasons to.

I have internet access daily, and usually on the weekend it's more a matter of making time than not having time on the weekends. Perhaps a relieveing force behind the main crusade? I'll give it some thought.

Edit: If the Kaiser decides to take the rest of the Chancellorship for himself, does that count as his 'birthright chancellorship'? I only ask cause IF it's open season, I'm considering a run (emphasis on considering) for chancellor and a reduced term kinda appeals to me.

Edit 2: No offence stig or Swabians for my IC comments, I'm just stirring the pot.

econ21
06-29-2007, 14:54
If the Kaiser decides to take the rest of the Chancellorship for himself, does that count as his 'birthright chancellorship'?

The Kaiser could contest the election openly and reserve his "birthright" for a full term later. But if he uses his perogative, then yes, that's his birthright Chancellorship used up.

AussieGiant
06-29-2007, 15:23
hey Ituralde,

does that mean Warluster doesn't regarding my request to marry Lyse at all?

TinCow
06-29-2007, 15:30
Actually, keeping Siegfried unmarried is a good thing. We can use his marriage for alliance diplomacy. As for justifying it in-game... just make something up. We didn't really bother with any real reason for Jobst inheriting the throne, simply because it's so random and ridiculous. I'm sure everyone will accept whatever RP reason you choose to give.

econ21
06-29-2007, 15:55
Just a reminder - voting will open for one day at 9am pm UK time tonight. I understand Kaiser Jobst will exercise his perogative to be Chancellor so we won't need a Chancellorship election if Hummel is impeached. In that event, Warluster can pick up the 1244 save on 9am Saturday UK time.

FactionHeir
06-29-2007, 16:00
I think you meant 9pm for either econ ~:)

Stuperman
06-29-2007, 16:15
Well, someone (Stig maybe?) was asking for 36 hours hours of debate, so 9am might be right.

so that's like 4am NA time?

FactionHeir
06-29-2007, 16:19
Yeah, but econ said "9am UK time tonight" which doesn't make a lot of sense :grin:

gibsonsg91921
06-29-2007, 16:53
hey guys if lyse von salza spawns (or already has) less than 3 charm, i think we oughta send her on some diplomacy and dont marry her until shes three. then we wont get wife is a wretch traits and we'll continue making babies. same for meinburg..

Ituralde
06-29-2007, 16:58
Lyse von Salza has spawned and currently has a Charm of 3, although the Tool Tips of her two traits suggest that she should have a rating of 4, since both are supposed to give +2 each. I also haven't seen any ancilliary or trait that reduces her charm. Any insights FactionHeir?

gibsonsg91921
06-29-2007, 16:59
thats weird. well, in that case marry away! i wanna be in the tourney for her heart! lol. we should totally do what that one person said we should and have a multiplayer tournament for her hand.

Stig
06-29-2007, 17:06
Stuperman, no offence but I'd rather go on that crusade with some undeveloped characters. Preferably young, characters that need work so they get some good traits. When I got Ansehelm he already had some good traits, but characters as: Siegfried von Kastillien, Dieter Bresch, Wolfgang Hummel (he could do with some) or Helmut von Hamburg.

I can fight the battles now so that's no problem, sides I have no problem with autoresolving, stat wise I'm bringing superior troops.


have a multiplayer tournament for her hand.
An MP tourney for 4 players takes about 2 weeks to set up, arrange and fight, with luck.
I've been in multiple tourneys, and for tourneys you can fight about 1 person per week. Different schedules, timezones, GameSpy, etc.

gibsonsg91921
06-29-2007, 17:13
yeah, thats true, but we should do some cool way instead of just arbitrarily dropping her off.

Ituralde
06-29-2007, 17:20
Not sure about Helmut von Hamburg, but Dieter Bresch and Wolfgang Hümmel are definetly in Outremer. Dieter is running around with Conrad Salier, while Wolfgang is with his father in Adana.

gibsonsg91921
06-29-2007, 17:32
helmut's in ragusa last i checked - that would take a while too. maybe a reinforcement army coming from the black sea?

Stig
06-29-2007, 17:49
Yeah all the young characters seem to be far away. We still have Fritz tho, he can come, or Ansehelm could simply go on his own.
Tho if Helmut is in Ragusa he has enough time to head north, it will take about 5 turns for the army to finish I guess. And Dieter can get his experience with Conrad.

Helmut should head north anyway as he's needed when Gunther and Jonas die (withing 10 turns is my guess)

Ituralde
06-29-2007, 17:53
Yeah I belive one of the first jobs of the future Chancellor would be to sort out the character mess we have. With a lot of unassigned avatars coming up, they seem to appear every which way. I think it would be good to start moving them towards their respective Duchies or their Crusader Countys in Outremere to get some sort of organization going.

TinCow
06-29-2007, 18:01
Yep. Unless you're in or on your way to Outremer, avatars should remain in their Duchies. Especially unassigned ones.

Stig
06-29-2007, 18:06
The problem is is that all avatars who's fathers are outside cities spawn in Rome. That's 4 turns away from Franconia and 6 from the Outremer, atleast.

gibsonsg91921
06-29-2007, 18:09
yeah, thats where peter popped up.

TinCow
06-29-2007, 18:15
Right, which means it should be a high priority to get them on their way to their Duchies. We've had several cases of avatars lingering around in strange places for much longer than they needed to. I think unassigned avatars should be stuck in cities and used as governors to build good traits so that they will eventually be appealing to players who need avatars. If you're a Franconian and you pop up in Rome, you should be making a bee-line north to help manage Franconian cities.

AussieGiant
06-29-2007, 18:18
I agree entirely TC.

Stig
06-29-2007, 18:24
Actually it might be better to put them in the Italian cities and in the settlement with a young character you should than take down the tax so that happiness will grow to over 100% (green face), this will quickly give good governor traits in my experience.

TinCow
06-29-2007, 18:27
Yeah, but who says us Bavarians want any of your filthy Franconians stealing our women? :laugh4:

Stig
06-29-2007, 18:31
Yeah, but who says us Bavarians want any of your filthy Franconians stealing our women? :laugh4:
Don't worry, you can keep your witch

OverKnight
06-29-2007, 18:36
Actually a Jens von Kassel married Meinburg von Hamburg, so it's Bavarians, if you go by the randomly assigned last name of the suitor, stealing Franconian women. :beam:

Stuperman
06-29-2007, 19:11
Stuperman, no offence but I'd rather go on that crusade with some undeveloped characters. Preferably young, characters that need work so they get some good traits. When I got Ansehelm he already had some good traits, but characters as: Siegfried von Kastillien, Dieter Bresch, Wolfgang Hummel (he could do with some) or Helmut von Hamburg.

OK, but Since joining this PBM, I've fought 3 battles (in as many months) only 2 of which counted for Gerhard, (one battle Conrad was technically the commander, but I was the battle fighter for IC reason) So Gerhard had few good traits, then those few were destroyed by the witch. Gerhard Has never fought a siege battle (Mersaille was taken when there was no garrison), hell he's never even been outside his dutchy. As much as I contribute IC and OOC on the forums, I've done almost nothing IN GAME, and would like to have a more active role. This northen crusade is probable the last time Gerhard will get a chance to activle contribute as he's getting older (he's 50 now) and besides, IC it doesn;t make much sence to have a Grand Northern Crusade run by a bunch of 20 something generals.

edit: OK, I'm confused, who married Gerhard's Daughter?

Stig
06-29-2007, 22:05
OK, but Since joining this PBM, I've fought 3 battles (in as many months) only 2 of which counted for Gerhard, (one battle Conrad was technically the commander, but I was the battle fighter for IC reason) So Gerhard had few good traits, then those few were destroyed by the witch. Gerhard Has never fought a siege battle (Mersaille was taken when there was no garrison), hell he's never even been outside his dutchy. As much as I contribute IC and OOC on the forums, I've done almost nothing IN GAME, and would like to have a more active role. This northen crusade is probable the last time Gerhard will get a chance to activle contribute as he's getting older (he's 50 now) and besides, IC it doesn;t make much sence to have a Grand Northern Crusade run by a bunch of 20 something generals.

Aye true, but what I mean is that yes Gerhard hasn't done much (he has 10! loyalty tho, if I'm correct). But since he's 50 (mostlikely 53 when the crusade starts). Whatever he gains is little, and I think such is better done for the young characters, as they can use it in future.

Would be great to have someone old and experienced as Gerhard along for IC reasons tho. Bavaria isn't in much danger and can easely defended by Markus and Lothar, the only thing you might lack is governors for the Italian cities.

gibsonsg91921
06-29-2007, 22:07
im more worried he'd die before we get going...

Stig
06-29-2007, 22:08
Nah, most characters get to 58

GeneralHankerchief
06-29-2007, 22:10
So far the savegame's been pretty nice with our character ages. Heinrich and Henry both made it to 62 before croaking, and Leopold was going strong in his late 50s until he died in battle.

Gerhard does have that witch's blight on him but he should still have enough time to at least start the Crusade before he bites it.

Stig
06-29-2007, 22:20
Aye once he is near Thorn Ansehelm and the crusading army should be ready so they could go together near 1255 (either turn 1254 or 1256).
That's in 5-6 turns so Gerhard will be 53 then.

In 10 turns it should be possible to be in Moscow ... if it would be fully up to me. ~D
We could ofcourse grant him an heroic death at his old age ~D, or he could pass away sieging Moscow.

Cecil XIX
06-30-2007, 00:18
An MP tourney for 4 players takes about 2 weeks to set up, arrange and fight, with luck.
I've been in multiple tourneys, and for tourneys you can fight about 1 person per week. Different schedules, timezones, GameSpy, etc.

That's a good point, but it might be okay if don't stop the campaign. Does anyone know how long Princesses last?

FactionHeir
06-30-2007, 00:22
Until age 40, just as any other female avatar.

FactionHeir
06-30-2007, 00:30
Lyse von Salza has spawned and currently has a Charm of 3, although the Tool Tips of her two traits suggest that she should have a rating of 4, since both are supposed to give +2 each. I also haven't seen any ancilliary or trait that reduces her charm. Any insights FactionHeir?

The only way this can happen is if the person under whose "guidance" the princess spawned did not have the fixes installed.
In vanilla M2TW, EducatedWoman level 2 gives only 1 point, thus total 3. This does not update until she gains/loses another point in said trait or is fixed via console. This is why its so important to have the fixes properly installed when you are playing the game!

Warluster
06-30-2007, 01:01
btw, happy birthday Ignoramus and Xdeathfire!

FactionHeir
06-30-2007, 01:02
Hmm just noticed that down there too.

Happy 15th birthday both of you. Getting older hehe :grin2:

AussieGiant
06-30-2007, 01:48
Happy Birthday guy's.

gibsonsg91921
06-30-2007, 03:31
hows it feel to be 15? im there too dudes. cept i turn 16 in september. u gonna be sophomores? im an uppaclassman now!

Ignoramus
06-30-2007, 06:42
Thanks guys.

It's currently school holidays here in Victoria, so that's very nice.

Cecil XIX
06-30-2007, 06:59
Happy belated birthday, Ignoramus and Xdeathfire. Boy, it really feels weird knowing that I'm older than three of the people here at the age of 18. :beam:

flyd
06-30-2007, 07:42
You know, the game is not supposed to progress while the Diet is in session.

Ignoramus
06-30-2007, 07:49
I followed GH's precedent. If Ulrich hadn't died, then yes, he would be literally flayed alive, but as my sole purpose was to kill off Ulrich(the Turkish army only consisted of 90 men) I am sure it is alright.

OverKnight
06-30-2007, 08:21
FLYdude has a point, Ignoramus could have arranged to do this with the knowledge of Warluster just as easily once he took possesion of the save. I'm sure he wouldn't have minded arranging a Viking funeral for Ulrich.

I would suggest we let Warluster take a look at the save, and if he's alright with it, we'll go from there. It's still dirty pool however. Using GH's actions as Heinrich for precedent puts Ignoramus on shaky ground to begin with. :laugh4:

Please, please, please no more shenanigans with a save. It's a very slippery slope. We've frayed the PBM enough around the edges in the past few days and we don't need to be pulling out more threads.

Stig
06-30-2007, 09:15
*quickly steals save and murders everyone but Ansehelm*
*uploads it again without any noticing*


Wasn't me ~D

OverKnight
06-30-2007, 09:23
I'm sorry Stig, but political assasinations are only allowed by a two thirds majority vote of the Diet, as I believe it would require a Charter Amendment. :P

TevashSzat
06-30-2007, 11:51
Sigh...Looks like a Swabian edict for taking a settlement is gonna fail once again. Its basically Swabia versus every1 else

Stig
06-30-2007, 12:01
Well you're kinda using this Emergency Session to get it through again, it failed once, so you could expect this.

Sides I voted against it because Ansehelm will need some resources for his crusade, would he have to share that with Swabia it would mostlikely take longer ~D

FactionHeir
06-30-2007, 12:08
Still need more people to support E.3 here. Where are all the Bavarians that are supposed to follow their Duke's vote? :grin:

Btw, E.4 ought to pass: as a bday present for Xdeathfire heh!

econ21
06-30-2007, 12:56
If Ulrich hadn't died, then yes, he would be literally flayed alive, but as my sole purpose was to kill off Ulrich(the Turkish army only consisted of 90 men) I am sure it is alright.

Unless you upload a savegame, Ulrich hasn't died. We won't delay Warluster's start waiting for a savegame, although he may be amenable to mimicing your move if there is not one.

I understand that Ulrich may have reached the end of the road as a playable character and am happy to assign you another one. Do you want his son, Wolfgang Hummel, or another avatar?

I suggest people don't react in character to the rumours of Hummel's death until we see if they are exagerated.

Ignoramus
06-30-2007, 13:09
I'll upload it straight away. I'll consider which avatar I'll have next, but I'm leaning towards Wolfgang.

Edit: Save's uploaded - kotr1244-2.

I think I will take Wolfgang.

Dutch_guy
06-30-2007, 13:14
Ah, shame Hümmel had to go though. Kind of makes these emergency session edicts just plain old boring edicts, with the 'cause' of the problems gone.

That said, happy birthday Ignoramus and Xdeathfire !

Have a good one guys ~:cheers:

:balloon2:

econ21
06-30-2007, 13:44
I've updated the playlist with people's stats.

I think we accept Ulrich's death - it makes sense both in character and out of character - and just play on from:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1244-2.zip

The save is pretty interesting - I think Warluster is going to have a fun time as Chancellor. Perhaps one of his first jobs will be to rescue Wolfgang Hummel from the nearby Turks!

Northnovas
06-30-2007, 14:43
Karl Zirn Count of Zagreb and Governor of Damascus to the rescue!!!!
He's the only one out there.

GeneralHankerchief
06-30-2007, 21:53
Happy birthday guys! :cake:

The conclusion of the Conrad/hashish storyline is finally up.

TevashSzat
06-30-2007, 22:10
Thank you, and I think I may have to just take a French city and then abandon it just to weaken the French.

Warluster
06-30-2007, 22:18
lso, I had a brainwave. With the whole weird problem of Siegfred being Prince, we could get the 1242 save, the one before Henry was dead, and marry Lyse to Siegfred then, then upload?

Then the DIet tournaments could be for Meinburg.

Stig
06-30-2007, 22:34
Thank you, and I think I may have to just take a French city and then abandon it just to weaken the French.
Not allowed to attack cities ... Gaza for example.


and happy birthday and stuff ~:cheers:

econ21
06-30-2007, 22:48
lso, I had a brainwave. With the whole weird problem of Siegfred being Prince, we could get the 1242 save, the one before Henry was dead, and marry Lyse to Siegfred then, then upload?

Then the DIet tournaments could be for Meinburg.

I think that's unpicking history too much (Henry may not even die, let alone redoing all the stuff that Ulrich did). I think it is best to just play on from 1244. As Tincow said, I don't think anyone is going to bat an eyelid at whatever in-character story is used to justify Siegfried being prince. (We did not with Sigismund and Jobst.)

Stig
06-30-2007, 23:11
Wait a minute, as Hummel is dead before the voting ended, shouldn't his votes become undone, somehow seems unright to me.

FactionHeir
06-30-2007, 23:13
:gah2: Why do tied edicts fail? I shall propose a CA next diet to make tied edicts depend on the Emperor's will!

I'm not sure whether online tournaments will work out, considering what Stig said. Also, I won't have any good connection from tomorrow until october, so I can only fight SP battles, but no MP.

What Stig said also makes sense actually. Dead people's votes normally don't count?

Stig
06-30-2007, 23:23
I'm not sure whether online tournaments will work out, considering what Stig said.
If you want to marry a 40 year old woman no problem, but it takes time time and more time.
I can't fight on tuesdays, wednesdays and weekends (no I really can't), you can't fight on thursdays (for example). When we try we get a GS problem, try again some other day. Something more important comes inbetween so we have to fight another day.
I still have to fight 5 others, etc etc.

You should take about one week of time for every player in it.


Dead people's votes normally don't count?
Not in real, how do you vote?

econ21
07-01-2007, 02:44
Not in real, how do you vote?

Ever heard of postal votes? There must be a lot of postal voting going on in the Reich, given the geographic dispersion of its generals. Seriously, Ignoramus voted before he announced Hummel's death. I don't see a problem.

OverKnight
07-01-2007, 07:53
There's a fine tradition in American politics of dead people voting. Usually it involeved Political Machines like Tammany Hall and crooked voter registration lists.

McIwoo
07-01-2007, 10:42
I won't have any good connection from tomorrow until october, so I can only fight SP battles, but no MP.

No connection, no wife! :skull:

:clown:

AussieGiant
07-01-2007, 15:20
:gah2: Why do tied edicts fail? I shall propose a CA next diet to make tied edicts depend on the Emperor's will!


Maybe if and edict loses by less than 5% it should pass as well :inquisitive:

Stig
07-01-2007, 15:25
Ever heard of postal votes?
Not when one is dead.
During the Diet session the game is stalled, so it doesn't matter when Igno killed Hummel. He's dead.
(heh, I want E2.3 through)

AussieGiant
07-01-2007, 15:31
It's all semantic.

He had time to come to the Diet so could have left his wishes to some administrator. There is a million possible ways to have his wishes fulfilled.

2.3 failed as it was a tie.

StoneCold
07-01-2007, 15:33
ya, as you say, he saw that the impeachment will pass so he decide to go out in a blaze of glory. So, the vote happened while he was alive. :P

GeneralHankerchief
07-01-2007, 16:41
Not when one is dead.

Oh please, a few years ago we actually had a dead woman winning a Senatorial election.

AussieGiant
07-01-2007, 16:48
ya, as you say, he saw that the impeachment will pass so he decide to go out in a blaze of glory. So, the vote happened while he was alive. :P

See that's certainly the most dramatic and preferable one for me SC :2thumbsup:

GeneralHankerchief
07-01-2007, 19:55
So, what's happening now? Is Warluster okay to go with the save?

econ21
07-01-2007, 22:17
Is Warluster okay to go with the save?

Hopefully. By the 48 hour rule I mentioned, we should expect some progress - ideally a savegame - by 9pm UK time Monday.

Stig
07-01-2007, 22:37
Right who will call for another Emergency Session?

GeneralHankerchief
07-01-2007, 23:44
Right who will call for another Emergency Session?

Gah, not that quick! Let's give the man some time here.

Although an Emergency Session would be interesting strictly in the terms of all the precedents we'd be setting. Can we impeach the Kaiser when he's using his prerogative? If the Kaiser doesn't finish out his session is his prerogative returned to him? Would the Kaiser use his ability to end the Session early if the votes weren't going his way (this last bit I was thinking of doing a few times as Heinrich)?

Warluster
07-02-2007, 00:31
Everyone, keep your socks on! I only just woke up!

I shall do the turn 'bout 10 GMT+10 time, I need a bit more sleep :P

TinCow
07-02-2007, 01:15
Try to avoid giving me any battles for 48 hours, if possible. My computer has been acting up a lot lately, making gameplay difficult at best. I am planning on formatting to solve the problem tomorrow night. I know I'm supposed to attack a Milanese city sometime soon, so if things can somehow be arranged to delay that until Tuesday night at the earliest, it will be easier for me.

Warluster
07-02-2007, 01:48
Is can't find the list of all valid CA's and Edicts, anyone know where they are?

Don't worry, I found them.

Warluster
07-02-2007, 02:43
I am uploading save now.

I have writeen the Chancellors Report, am posting now. (Though I'll work on it a bit more, tell me if it sucks or not)