PDA

View Full Version : Death Fields of Totomi - Successor of the 4th Kawa???



Shimazu Tokugawa
10-30-2000, 23:01
Totomi , Totomi above everything.....!
Away from the historical battles culminating in the 4th Kawa we now have the 234th Totomi, well that is how it seems when you go online these days, worsening after the rankings reset. Everybody plays Totomi-Comp!
The other alternatives seem to be defenders on high hills (Kaga, Echizen, Mino). I do not want to talk about these, we did already in the camping issue at the community forum.

I want to talk about Totomi! Yes, I cannot stand this map, I cannot handle this map very well and I certainly did not win a lot on this map. I guess I am just a too defensive player for Totomi...(lots of whining in one post).

It always felt to me that army selection is a key to success in Totomi, whoever has more guns is more likely to win (if he uses them smart..!). I feel, winning an attack in MGH uphill is far more challenging so why does everybody love Totomi????? Maybe I am doing something wrong here.
You tell me!
Humbley,
ST

------------------
"Strength and Honor for Clan Kenchikuka"

[This message has been edited by Shimazu Tokugawa (edited 10-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Shimazu Tokugawa (edited 10-30-2000).]

Obake
10-30-2000, 23:34
OK Tokugawa, here's the deal (at least my take on it).

Totomi is the flattest of all the maps, thereby providing the most level playing field. For competitive battles having a level playing field seems the most fair. Many competitive players are not going to subject themselves to the potential loss of honor by attacking on Mikata-Ga-Hara, Shinano or Kaga. Personal satisfaction of emerging victorious from one of those maps is relegated to playing a friendly game.

There are of course many other "relatively" flat maps (Harima for example) that could be used, but I don't think the majority of players are familiar with them. Most comps will take place on Totomi, 4th Kawa or Nagashima, it's just human nature to not walk into a potential trap. Of course since I'm inhuman http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif I'm more than happy to play on others like Harima, Yamato, Chikuzen, Noto and so on either attacking or defending.

Obake

10-30-2000, 23:45
I personally leave Totomi for practicing. I don't like it much. I love a few forests and hills.

I like Hitachi and the new YamaTosa map patricularly.

------------------
Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa

The Black Ship
10-30-2000, 23:57
Aha!

So it's whoever has the most guns wins on Totomi http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Now I know the secret!

I "feel" better playing on a level map. What I mean is I don't have to worry about a unit of Yari dangling off a precipice, or running my Nagi's to the point of exhaustion uphill. I just have to deploy competently and I know I'll have a reasonable chance at winning (or at least inflicting some damage http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif)

Give us a good map editor and I'm sure the "new Totomi" can be created. Why just look at what Tosa's accomplished by himself http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Gregoshi
10-31-2000, 04:26
The "new Totomi" - 50% flatter than the old one... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Once we achieve "Flatland", then we can start worrying about wind direction. Sun Tzu says "Never attack up wind." http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Gregoshi

The Black Ship
10-31-2000, 04:35
Let's see... a few trees here, a little koi pond there, a few pagodas to the right, a peasant hovel to the left... OK run it all over with a steam shovel http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/cool.gif

Isn't progress wonderful?

Shimazu Tokugawa
10-31-2000, 06:19
I just posted this reply by mistake as a new topic - getting older and older....

Anyway I believe that another excellent map is Harima with advantages for defender and attacker. I started playing there after reading a post of one of the Links who liked it and had nothing but good battles on this ground. Also never had a problem finding another player for a game there.
So there are still alternatives to Totomi.
Humbley,
ST

------------------
"Strength and Honor for Clan Kenchikuka"

Didz
10-31-2000, 11:52
I agree with Shimazu Tokugawa. TOTOMI is dominating the online game at the minute.

Not only do I find this map boring but I also find it unlucky so I tend to avoid it now.

I appreciate the desire for fairness in competitive play but there are at least 25 to 30 maps that offer reasonable tactical options for both defence and attack that could be used instead.

And [engaging broken record mode] if hosts are prepared to select the attacker role for themselves then I don't see why the challenger should complain if the map has a few hills and woods to make life interesting.

[This message has been edited by Didz (edited 10-31-2000).]

Shimazu Tokugawa
10-31-2000, 16:27
Thanks Didz for the support and for removing my wrong placed topic, it was close to 1 AM here.....

Again, for me the top player is the one who can beat any other player on any map in any weather attacking and defending!!

I also know we will never find that one so I will stick to playing as many maps as I can but still returning to my most favorite. I agree there are rediculous landscapes but, hey we won't loose our lives (it is a game, remember!!!!
Humbley,
ST

------------------
"Strength and Honor for Clan Kenchikuka"

[This message has been edited by Shimazu Tokugawa (edited 10-31-2000).]

Zen Blade
10-31-2000, 17:30
personally, I won't play on any map with a significant hill (with a few exceptions) b/c there are too many ***************** who will just camp up on the top of the hill. They are not impossible to beat, but it is rather time consuming and I must be in a good mood. I used to all the time at the beginning, but it gets tiresome to have to charge up a hill time after time and your opponent never being honorable enough to then change roles and charge up a hill while you sit there.
BUT, there are some "good" players who play on these hilly maps..... You know, they just choose defense, and sit on the top and say "come and get it".
OPINION: Anyone will win more than they lose by sitting on top of a hill, if they are a half-way decent player. (and if they are ever in danger of losing.... they can even hit the "ESC" button.... not saying any player in particular, who is ranked kind of high in the rankings does this, but you never know.... unless you check their battle history of course and see that they only play battles that they host on a particular map and always as defense... but I digress)

The only times I would play on, let's say Echizen or something is if I knew the other person and we had come to some sort of agreement ahead of time. Or, if I felt up to a challenge.

As for strategy on Totomi, there is a lot more than most ppl think. Especially with 2v2 or 3v3. These games can be very fun if playing with someone you know/ communicate with.
and the strategy is not limited to who has the most guns... although this does have a significant role. : ) (I dislike smily faces)

thanks for reading my rant,
-Zen Blade

------------------
Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil

Tachikaze
10-31-2000, 19:51
I use Totomi to test my skills when I want to minimize the effects of terrain. Sometimes I don't want terrain to be a factor in the outcome.

When I play a human, we sometimes agree to "just meet on the field of honor", so to speak. A direct, head-to-head clash to determine who has developed the best armies, formations, and movements.

But, I play a variety; I don't stick to Totomi. I like rolling hills and occasional slopes. I'm not as fond of trees, though.

I don't think the defender necessarily has a big advantage on a steep hill, especially if the crown is small. It seems like I can stay below and pick off my opponent's units one-by-one. I can sometimes concentrate three ranged units on one of his because of his restricted space and movement.

I did this in a recent game (I can't recall the map). My opponent scrapped with me a little, then camped on a steep hill. My first charge was thwarted, but I circled around the other side, and concentrated fire. I kept my melee units close to him in a forest. I was weakening his units, and he could only hit my force with a single group of arquebusiers. When he tried to rearrange his force, his units were not firing, and I was getting free shots. The damage I was doing was more psychological than destructive. Frustrated, he made a charge at me, which eventually led to his route.

A wide, steep slope along one side of the map with no access to the flanks is a bigger challenge.

Shimazu Tokugawa
10-31-2000, 21:08
A good battle story and it just shows again that patience is the key to winning these battles. I used to play Echizen and Satsuma a lot because I could use some surprise tactics there but it was not that the better player won just the better positioned one. In Totomi I believe that the host has an advantage because nowhere is weather etc so important. There is no difference between attacker and defender there but I had several battles where my musks where rendered useless by heavy rain or I had to march across the map to one right corner, arrived "quite tired" and then of course everybody routed soon...
Humbley,
ST

------------------
"Strength and Honor for Clan Kenchikuka"

Tachikaze
10-31-2000, 22:01
A lot of you seem to like forests. I should practice using them. I haven't figured out how to use them to my advantage (the story above is the one exception).

The AI loves them.

"Hey, AI, get out of there and fight!"

Is there any way to start a forest fire in this game?

------------------
A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

OUT4BLOOD
10-31-2000, 22:07
ok here r the maps i always use :-)

nagashima
totomi
yamato
saggymagy (magyaorsag)

out of these i prefer naga and yamato coz although they look hard 2 attack if u know how 2 it's easy!

now something 2 really annoy u!

heheh tosa is making a map flatter than totomi (yes it Is possible!) 4 the new tourny lol
if totomi gets u mad i would hate 2 c what this does lol!!!!

------------------
O4B

Dwimmerlaik
11-01-2000, 00:06
For those not too intimidated by a little height try Harima, it has a reasonable amount of elevation but is approachable from both wings if one is attacking, the defender has the choice of a little wooded cover or standard slope defense...'tis my favourite.

------------------
To be happy it is necessary not to be too intelligent

- Flaubert-

Shimazu Tokugawa
11-01-2000, 01:30
Yup I like Harima, good map for attacker and defender alike. Lately my favorite.
I also won many attacks in MGH uphill but this is very difficult and a vabanque game at best - nothing if you want to keep you 200-0 ranking, then stick with Totomi!
Humbley,
ST

------------------
"Strength and Honor for Clan Kenchikuka"

Methabaron
11-01-2000, 13:55
Ya OUT4,

Totomi is indeed FAR from flat. Those of us who like it know that the map has lots of small low profile hills around the map. This little hills can make a big difference and mean victory or defeat believe it or not. A defender aware of this fact will probably always have some degree of advantage.

Hopefully this new edited map you talk about is REALLY flat.

I also like Yamato a lot because uts full of bigger hills than Totomi and also forests cover some. The tide of battle moves away groups of units back and forth making the unit control extremely critical to ensure you remain on high ground, attackers have a very good chance here because you can easily displace the defender onto a valley in a short/quick turn of combat.

Metha


------------------
"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent...

Zen Blade
11-01-2000, 16:42
I agree with you about yamato metha. It does take a lot of unit control, plus you can often get a few smaller battles going instead of one large one, which is a huge plus to me. However, because of these facts... and the fact that there is often a decent amount of choppiness when playing online, I find it really annoying to play a decent-sized army on this particular battlefield.
-but, one of the best games I ever had was on this map. (a 3v3) unfortunately, 1 or 2 of the players on the other side were from France, and at least my side was all American (I think). We had a good deal of lag, and it took forever, but it was fun (most of the time, lag games just really annoy me).

-btw, what is this new tournament thing that Tosa is working on??? (excuse my ignorance, I have not been around or online much lately).

-Zen Blade

------------------
Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil

OUT4BLOOD
11-01-2000, 19:43
ah yes well i just spoke 2 tosa and the new map is up to download and is not as flat as totomi but flatter than saggymagy (magyarorsag)!

DragonCat
11-02-2000, 03:17
I once won a totally lost battle on totomi in the following way.

My men had routed and I had managed to finally rally a few beat up units. We were near the back edge near the little hill.

My opponent still had gun units left and every time I tried to attack him, my men would run from the guns.

I rallied about six times, and things were looking VERY bad for me.

Then I decided to hide my men BEHIND the little bitty hill. With his guns unable to shoot (they need line of sight and that hill was just enough) I was able to surprise him and attack his general from behind that little hill. Ended up his men routed and I chased them off the board.

I love Totomi - and you better know every nook and cranny if you want to beat me on it!!


------------------
DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

TosaInu
11-02-2000, 12:28
Konnichiwa,

My new map for multi/custom/onlineplay is for download at http://www.boy-co.demon.nl section scenarios/maps.

Tami Kochi is lowland with many trees.




------------------
Ja mata
Toda TosaInu

hachiman
11-02-2000, 20:02
anytime dragoncat and i'll even let you defend.

hach

clairobscur
11-03-2000, 00:31
Just wondering...If the tourney you're refering to is the one which is being organised on the official board by the fear clan...

What the point in using a flat map, since there will be no timer, and for that reason no specific advantage for the defender??

Zen Blade
11-03-2000, 01:16
I have to disagree with you on that clairobscur. There is always an advantage when you get to start at the top of the hill. If two players of equal ability play one another, then the person with the better terrain will win... since they are of equal ability. If you don't believe me clairobscur, play against someone on Echizen (a friendly if you prefer) There are ways to take down the person on the hill, but if they are decent--good, they will win.
However, the advantage of hilly maps can be negated if you fight against someone who will actually rematch you and let you fight on the hill the next round, but those ppl are as plentiful as they once were.

-Zen Blade

------------------
Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil

The Black Ship
11-03-2000, 09:09
For a hilly map if I can get near parity in kills, as an attacker, I consider it a moral victory at least http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif The "high" guy has all the fatigue advantages, and the attack bonuses too!

The Daimyo
11-03-2000, 09:26
My favorite victories are the ones I got from pushing 2 different armies off of a Mountain at a time. Beware. It will not be to your benefit to camp on a hill.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

clairobscur
11-03-2000, 13:57
I clearly understand that a good terrain is a major advantage,zen, but in a game without timer, nothing prevent the attacker from camping on the top of a hill too...That's why I said a flat map wasn't necessary in a tourney without timer.

Link Shumeisan
11-03-2000, 17:16
I agree with you Zen, the key to fair games is the rematch. I liked to see a rematch button on a screen when you just ended a battle.

For the maps, Yamato is my favourite when played in the middle 2v2 or more.
Totomi is fun too because it offers a lot of possibilities.
Harima is fine too but the battles tend to be always the same...

Shimazu Tokugawa
11-05-2000, 07:58
Zen is right with Echizen, but depending where your opponent camps, ont he woody hill he is in my opinion unbeatable unless he acts really stupid, and I hve played many games on that map when I started out.

On the other side of the map the odds are pretty open for both attacker and defender.
Humbley,
ST

------------------
"Strength and Honor for Clan Kenchikuka"

ShaiHulud
11-11-2000, 09:50
Would you say that Muskets are necessary for
countering a hill defender's advantages? (I've played only against the AI and usually don't get or need muskets to finish. {especially if I'm losing! hehe)

------------------
Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

solypsist
11-11-2000, 12:10
oh yeah. multi-player is all aboutwho has the most guns, unless its raining, and then its still all about who has the most guns, only in that case its not a position you want to be in.

The Black Ship
11-11-2000, 13:19
Guns are a must for online, they're cheap!

If it doesn't rain they're great, but man they sure run if engaged http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif Maybe I'll try upping their honor above 2 sometime. Anyone use high honor guns? Is it worth it?

ShadowKill
11-14-2000, 21:24
i just wanted to say somthing http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I like Aki and i had no idea Mikata-Ga-Hara had a giant hill in it untill i fought heavenlysword on it and he was up there on a hill i did not know was even there i wondered why people would not fight me on that map http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Fear not the sword to your front, but the blade at your back.

Obake
11-14-2000, 22:54
Guns are good, and can control the flow of battle, but if you know your opponent's style, they (guns) can be beat!

What I really wanted to discuss was the general direction of this thread, hilly terrain. Anyone who has competed against myself and the Fears in recent days knows that we are currently having a lot of fun playing king-of-the-hill on Tosa, either 3x3 or 4x4 http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/icw/019.gif . To date we have only lost once and have only defended Tosa once (just ask Rob heh heh)!

For those of you who don't know the map, Tosa is dominated by a rather large hill in the center of the map. There is also a stand of trees that flank the crest on the right side (attackers perspective) and protect that approach. There is also a long up slope on the opposite side of the map in addition to the direct frontal approach to the hill. Defenders on this map most definitely have the high ground!

There is an art to attacking uphill that is very difficult to master, even moreso in 1x1 but it can be done and this really is the point of my post! Certainly there are maps that I won't touch in Comp games (Shinano, Kaga and MGH for example) but most I am willing to give a shot.

Yamato is still my favorite standard map though although my overall favorites right now are Magyarorsag and Tami Kotchi, both by Tosa Inu! Everyone who hasn't gone and downloaded those maps is really missing out!



------------------
Obake http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net8/laghost.gif

We are but shadows of our former selves and the sons and daughters of lions have become sheep. I am the ghost of our past.

Dwimmerlaik
11-15-2000, 00:07
Attacking uphill.....still gives me the shivers, it is indeed difficult to do, especially when you must do it against massed musket ranks protecting the approaches and the inevitable rank-breaking charge when your tired troops have struggled up the slope against withering fire and their own fatigue...does anyone have any tips for making a forced frontal assault? Hehe, I know you really shouldn't but if you must, how do you do it and was it ever successful?

Ah, well, if I must die again and again I may as well do it with honour...strap on my kabuto, raise my gumbai and end the dream of life. http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net4/lifeup.gif

------------------
To be happy it is necessary not to be too intelligent

- Flaubert-

The Black Ship
11-15-2000, 05:49
You never walk stright up the damn hill Dwimms! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif Always take an oblique approach, you can gain height on most slopes on the edges where the opponent is thinnest. Keep melee together climbing, but have ranged units firing at responding enemy units. He's still gonna be higher than you, but he's not charging directly down upon you http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Sorry I can't be clearer, need to talk with my hands to be truly understood http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Dwimmerlaik
11-15-2000, 06:10
Of course you don't! I'm referring to situations in which he has closed off all other angles of approach apart from one close to being full frontal...hehe this is hard to explain...let's just say you make a suicidal frontal assault to occupy his front line while you take the oblique approach with your main force, how do you make your brave gunnery fodder last as long as possible, that would be the closest approximation to my question...i think..

------------------
To be happy it is necessary not to be too intelligent
- Flaubert-

http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/ff4summon/indra.gif

The Black Ship
11-15-2000, 06:48
See what I mean Dwimms... if we could only use our hands( much like pilots describing an aerial engagement)!

I am by no means an expert, but I do well enuff. What I do is keep ranged units to the flanks-in spread formation- within charging distance- but far enuff away to be enticing http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

I'm hoping he comes barreling down on my ranged units, leaves him less on the hill, and often I can charge down on his flank with a h-t-h unit or two as I retreat my ranged units back a bit.

Dwimmerlaik
11-15-2000, 07:37
Yeah, I see what you're saying BlackShip, however if he must be rooted out then it becomes much more difficult..kinda like this... http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net4/headshot.gif

------------------
To be happy it is necessary not to be too intelligent
- Flaubert-

http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/ff4summon/indra.gif