View Full Version : EB2's armor
Ello.
It occured to me :idea2: that in M2TW, armor upgrades are represented on the battlefield by better armor on the unit models. Ex. Peasant archers with three armor upgrades wear chainmail, whereas freshly recruited ones without a blacksmith in the province simply wear factionally-colored tunics.
Has the EB team considered this feature, and how to utilize it? It comes to mind to have, perhaps, 'Classical Hoplites" upgrade from Linthorax to a leather cuirass, or something along those lines.
I think it'll not be used in EB2
BozosLiveHere
07-16-2007, 03:01
As it is, the armor upgrade effects are hardcoded, even though there are parameters in edu that should enable us to adjust them on a per-unit basis. Unfortunately they don't work in the current version. If this changes for the next version/expansion, we will probably make use of them.
How can you not use the cool feture of upgrading armour it would be perofect for EB.
I think it would expecially be a good way to represent the polybian and celtic reforms.
MarcusAureliusAntoninus
07-16-2007, 08:21
The problem is that in the EB system one type of armor would have 6 defense and the upgraded type of armor should provide 11 defense. But the M2TW blacksmiths will provide only 1 defense bonus for the upgrade.
Tellos Athenaios
07-16-2007, 12:23
However if we can get around that then we can start doing nice things with units such as Libyan Infantry, and Liby-Phoenician infantry. (Because they do have heavy counterparts.)
To do this in a way that makes sense, you'd need to be linking ability to upgrade at Armourer to Reforms wouldn't you?
Dunno if thats easy or hard though.
But yeah, that would be a really cool way to deal with upgraded units & backward provinces using old style warfare.
Would it be possible to get as drastic as to have Hoplites upgraded in Athens turn into Iphicratids? (assuming proper control of unit stat affect from upgrade)
Would it be possible to get as drastic as to have Hoplites upgraded in Athens turn into Iphicratids? (assuming proper control of unit stat affect from upgrade)
No, we cannot do this because this would require a change in animation. The only thing that can change, afaik, is the .cas and .dds files that the unit uses, but not the animation files. Unfortunately.
Foot
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
07-16-2007, 17:09
The problem is that in the EB system one type of armor would have 6 defense and the upgraded type of armor should provide 11 defense. But the M2TW blacksmiths will provide only 1 defense bonus for the upgrade.
Not exactly true, different armour upgrades provide different boni but they never go above 11 and given the fact that some of our units have armour in the high 20's that's obviously a problem.
MarcusAureliusAntoninus
07-16-2007, 22:24
I heard that even though some armor bonuses are supposed to go over 1 and be modable, that they are bugged and right now (in the current M2TW) each level of upgrade only gives +1 defense. I was probably misled by random rumors on a M2TW forum, though.
the_handsome_viking
07-16-2007, 23:13
Ello.
It occured to me :idea2: that in M2TW, armor upgrades are represented on the battlefield by better armor on the unit models. Ex. Peasant archers with three armor upgrades wear chainmail, whereas freshly recruited ones without a blacksmith in the province simply wear factionally-colored tunics.
Has the EB team considered this feature, and how to utilize it? It comes to mind to have, perhaps, 'Classical Hoplites" upgrade from Linthorax to a leather cuirass, or something along those lines.
Think of the impact its going to have on the game I mean, take the Celts for example, if you have a standard Celtic warrior, unarmored sword and shield, and then give him maybe leather armor or a basic bronse circular plate on his chest and then eventually give him chain mail armor, you bascially kill three birds with one stone, there will be so many spare unit slots.
ElectricEel
07-17-2007, 18:04
I heard that even though some armor bonuses are supposed to go over 1 and be modable, that they are bugged and right now (in the current M2TW) each level of upgrade only gives +1 defense. I was probably misled by random rumors on a M2TW forum, though. According to research in this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79784), while only +1 armour is displayed on the unit cards, the upgraded units do actually get more armour than that - but the exact amount is not clear, and tests indicate it differs from what a CA developer said it was supposed to be.
MarcusAureliusAntoninus
07-17-2007, 18:26
According to research in this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79784), while only +1 armour is displayed on the unit cards, the upgraded units do actually get more armour than that - but the exact amount is not clear, and tests indicate it differs from what a CA developer said it was supposed to be.
Cool. Thanks for the link.
Are you sure that the upgrade would be a good idea in the historical sense?
I don't want to have light troops who went unarmoured for some reasons wearing armour only because they are recruited in a certain town. Armour may serve the individual but perhaps made the unit perform worse; as long as this could not be simulated I would be very critical about armour upgrades.
And I foresee the nice discussions related to this. In the first post is a statement which I would dislike totally for example: why should leather be better than linen? Some people would say the opposite or that it depends on the circumstances. Is mail worse than plate? Mail with a soft backing worse than plate? Mail better than scale armour? A lot of questions. The questions occur of course also with a fixed armour (that is: now) but perhaps the solution here allows a few more diversity?
Or the Iphicratic "peltasts", probably being hoplites. I highly doubt the fact they were in any sense better than the classical hoplites. Considering armour alone they should be worse perhaps. I can imagine a lot more questions...
Maybe the EB team (who else) will solve the problems.
Leather is not better than linen. It is in fact worse.
We would only use this feature to reduce the total number of units (in order to add more). Doing things like Making Light and heavy libyans merge into one unit, and what not, would be what EB would do with this feature. So don't fear peasants armored in mail anytime soon :-)
I have found this in another forum, is about armor:
4 armors (1 normal and 3 upgrades)
as many variations as the modelers can put in xD
I just found out that I can make the crest independent from the helmet the unit is wearing...so now MY hoplites wear 2 different crests or none ^^ which aren't always on the same helmets...you might have noticed in the earlier pics that the smaller crest has always been on the helmet with the vanilla RTW texture...
and there can be variations in:
-Helmets
-Heads
-Primary weapons
-Primary upgraded weapons
-Secondary weapons
-Secondary upgraded weapons
-Arms
-Hands
-Legs
-Bodies
-Accessories
-Shields
gamegeek2
08-06-2007, 04:08
Not only is the armor upgrade useful (no more Libyan infantry and heavy, etc.) the variance is useful,too. for units such as hoplites, most celtic soldiers, and early roman units. EB is awesome, even the graphics, but since everyone's a clone it's not as good.
The M2TW cavalry overpower is a problem. How are we to get around that with charge of 37 ???
According to research in this thread, while only +1 armour is displayed on the unit cards, the upgraded units do actually get more armour than that - but the exact amount is not clear, and tests indicate it differs from what a CA developer said it was supposed to be.
Further tests showed thar armour upgrades give +2/2.5 irregardless of armour level.
Slim_Ghost
08-06-2007, 11:29
M2:TW style armor upgrades would be totally awesome. Plain-clothed frameas can be upgraded to wear simple leather and buttressed shields and then later to chain mail with helmet. And then the legionnaires would start at the chain mail and later upgrade to wear the muscled cuirass (lorica segmentata?).
But I fear that this would disturb the historical accuracy of the mod. I mean, it would be very unrealistic if a roman army marches to Swebia (Germania?) and see Germanic warbands clad in iron. Perhaps the armor upgrade buildings would be set at a high price, just like the mines and the ports? That way, the factions with low income (like Swebos) would not easily provide high-quality equipment to its soldiers, and vice versa for the richer factions such as the Selukids, Parthai and Romani.
And speaking of which, I wonder if EB team can implement having cheaper smiths at cities that have mines.
And then the legionnaires would start at the chain mail and later upgrade to wear the muscled cuirass (lorica segmentata?).
Lorica segmentata is the segmented armour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorica_segmentata) that was in use during the Imperial era. And before someone asks (because the question seems to crop up every two weeks these days): no, it won't be included in EB, because it wasn't in common use until after EB's time-frame. I am not sure how muscled cuirasses were called, but these would have been frightfully expensive, so they weren't used by the rank-and-file.
As for your suggestions: I think it is possible to restrict the upgrades to a certain faction (it was in R:TW, at least), so Roman troops will not be influenced by German blacksmiths. However, what bothers me more is that equiping troops with improved armour wouldn't cost you more than equiping them with normal armour. That is unrealistic.
However, what bothers me more is that equiping troops with improved armour wouldn't cost you more than equiping them with normal armour. That is unrealistic.
You can edit the cost of upgrades in the edu,
You can edit the cost of upgrades in the edu,
Yes, but is that cost added to the cost of units when you train them, or just used when re-training them, or for custom battles?
It's used for all 3 i believe.
Patriote
08-06-2007, 16:37
Why are so many people interested in seeing the Lorica segmentata implemented in EB ? :dizzy2:
It does look nice for sure, and maybe I'm missing a point here, but it's just an other type of armor, right ? :inquisitive:
It's used for all 3 i believe.
Thanks for the information.
Why are so many people interested in seeing the Lorica segmentata implemented in EB ? :dizzy2:
It does look nice for sure, and maybe I'm missing a point here, but it's just an other type of armor, right ? :inquisitive:
For many people it's the quintessential Roman armour, and a game about Romans wouldn't be complete without it. Sadly, some of them don't seem to realize that the EB team is familiar with popular culture as well, and must have had a reason for not including it.
Patriote
08-06-2007, 18:00
Well yeah, it is very "Gladiator" like, must be why they want it so badly :laugh4:
Slim_Ghost
08-06-2007, 18:54
Well EB is about you, the player, creating your own history right? I would like to see a "what if" scenario when the Romans are extremely rich, so rich that they can afford to over-equip their legions with the highest quality armor avaliable.
It would take like 80K of gold and 40 turns (not counting the previous blacksmiths) to build an armor factory, but for the super-duper-rich Romani player, this wouldn't be an obstacle. This armor factory enables the upgrade of legion armor to the muscled cuirass.
The team woudln't worry about seeing so many of these upgraded legionnaires, because as I said the armor factory would be so high up the tech tree, so expensive and takes so long to complete. Only deeply specialized cities (like Rome) will have the facilities. The AI won't be abusing the smiths despite teh money cheat because as I observe in EB1 they prefer to build other buildings instead.
It is historically inaccurate to see legions with the cuirass, because as you said that it is too expensive, but it doesn't mean that it is historially improbable if the Romans are a lot richer - as in the case of me, the player.
Well yeah, it is very "Gladiator" like, must be why they want it so badly :laugh4:
Assuredly. Although LS has been hyped long before that movie was even conceived. All Ridley Scott did was go along with popular culture.
Well EB is about you, the player, creating your own history right? I would like to see a "what if" scenario when the Romans are extremely rich, so rich that they can afford to over-equip their legions with the highest quality armor avaliable.
Historically, the Romans were very rich, yet if anything they downgraded their armour. EB is indeed about rewriting history, but not every possibility can be included. If you do that, you have to allow the Celts to create cataphracts, or the Saba to recruit a legion. Could have happened, but rather unlikely, and so I doubt they are going to include it.
Patriote
08-06-2007, 20:01
So basically, you're asking that one of the Romani team member spend time doing the new model of Lorica segmentata, because I presume it is not done so far because they've always refused to add it to the game, while knowing there's still is a lot of work to do with EB2. All this for what? Something that would cost 80K + 40 turns and that would be used by less than 1% of the players. Totally useless and time consuming in my opinion.
You Lorica segmentata fans should get together and start a mod that will give you the possibility of equipping your legionnaries with this armor:smash:
Slim_Ghost
08-06-2007, 20:24
Hmm yeah you guys are right. I'll learn to mod in due time.
....(but then again, I am such a lazy, procastinating bastard lol).
CrownOfSwords
08-11-2007, 04:37
No way I think this has to be implemented in the game, or perhaps it can be controlled by scripts to show the change in armor over time bronze -> iron cuirass -> chainmail -> lorica/other elite
I also think there is no way this has to be implemented.
Didn't antesignani use a muscle cuirass?
antisocialmunky
08-19-2007, 14:23
Like any great bureacracy, they inevitably decided to go on the cheap with everything.
maybe it has to do with the government changing to picking up the tab for the equipment? If your buying to save your own skin, you would want the best. If your buying for someone else...
Post marius the troop equipment received no love from the senate for sure as they knew legionaries could be turned against them and generals themselves had to run their legions like a business to avoid getting bankrupt...
Who knows, in the future we might find that some generals issued leather or linen armour to part of their legions for the sake of cost effectiveness (or... what was used under the scales in the lorica squamata to keep them together?)
In terms of armor, Lorica Segmentata is worse than mail. More expensive, harder to maintain, and not as protective.
Byzantine_Dragon
08-25-2007, 06:40
M2:TW style armor upgrades would be totally awesome. Plain-clothed frameas can be upgraded to wear simple leather and buttressed shields and then later to chain mail with helmet. And then the legionnaires would start at the chain mail and later upgrade to wear the muscled cuirass (lorica segmentata?).
But I fear that this would disturb the historical accuracy of the mod. I mean, it would be very unrealistic if a roman army marches to Swebia (Germania?) and see Germanic warbands clad in iron. Perhaps the armor upgrade buildings would be set at a high price, just like the mines and the ports? That way, the factions with low income (like Swebos) would not easily provide high-quality equipment to its soldiers, and vice versa for the richer factions such as the Selukids, Parthai and Romani.
And speaking of which, I wonder if EB team can implement having cheaper smiths at cities that have mines.
Or better yet armor (like ships) would only be available where wealth/iron ore or other metals are available.
I.E. No armor resources in deserts or steppes
antisocialmunky
08-25-2007, 14:17
That would be a cool wat to do it but somewhat hard. You'd need to get the script to check for what locations have your resource(in this example, I'll use Iberia) and have it recheck to figure out if you still own it. Then there are the logic issues of people importing the resources or rich people buying resources personally or having armour commisioned. I mean, you do get alot of fancy armours from the steppes. The only reason you don't see uber armour on desert units is the heat. Even then there are the exant specimens of Egyptian scale armour.
Grothaal
10-17-2007, 21:43
So basically, you're asking that one of the Romani team member spend time doing the new model of Lorica segmentata, because I presume it is not done so far because they've always refused to add it to the game, while knowing there's still is a lot of work to do with EB2. All this for what? Something that would cost 80K + 40 turns and that would be used by less than 1% of the players. Totally useless and time consuming in my opinion.
You Lorica segmentata fans should get together and start a mod that will give you the possibility of equipping your legionnaries with this armor:smash:
If a player wish he can replace a unit with other mod I guess, without a major dificulty.
I am thinking in replacing the spartan unit of my EB with a more good looking one (as historical as possible without the cone-bronze-heads and 'babylon' beards), will be my first modding contact i guess. :)
hellenes
10-21-2007, 05:54
If a player wish he can replace a unit with other mod I guess, without a major dificulty.
I am thinking in replacing the spartan unit of my EB with a more good looking one (as historical as possible without the cone-bronze-heads and 'babylon' beards), will be my first modding contact i guess. :)
As disturbing as it is its 100% historical...and this is a Greek guy telling you this...Ive seen dozens of vase paintings in museums here...
Grothaal
10-23-2007, 03:27
:) They are good models, but in this case i choose to go a little a-historical, and went lets say in a more 'romantic' way, lol
Replaced the unit with the ATG models of bronze spartans :) They look good, and MEAN!!!! hehehehe
Greeks are my favourite faction, eventough i am a italian-french-spanish descendant, lol
hellenes
10-25-2007, 05:09
:) They are good models, but in this case i choose to go a little a-historical, and went lets say in a more 'romantic' way, lol
Replaced the unit with the ATG models of bronze spartans :) They look good, and MEAN!!!! hehehehe
Greeks are my favourite faction, eventough i am a italian-french-spanish descendant, lol
If you like MEAN and COOL stuff here you go:
http://lotr-tw.net/
I like keeping fantasy separate from history... :2thumbsup:
Grothaal
10-25-2007, 20:05
Thats what I will install next, only didnt installed yet because of lack of HD Space, since it is made for use along with Alexander expansion, and i have installed both RTW+BI and M2tw+kingdoms, plus mods for them (EB and SS) :)
Now with Kingdoms in my rig will try the DLV mod, and have to make the needed changes to EB so its compatible with the BI.
hellenes
10-25-2007, 21:10
Thats what I will install next, only didnt installed yet because of lack of HD Space, since it is made for use along with Alexander expansion, and i have installed both RTW+BI and M2tw+kingdoms, plus mods for them (EB and SS) :)
Now with Kingdoms in my rig will try the DLV mod, and have to make the needed changes to EB so its compatible with the BI.
Install Alexander (none of this will affect EB I have EB Napoleonic2, Chivalry, LotrTW, BI, Alexander all running on same RTW base...) and then install LOTRTW after that install teh music pack...
gamegeek2
10-31-2007, 21:22
The M2TW blacksmiths appear to only give 1 point of upgrade, but its more than that. I modded the game, and it actually does change it to the base values, though it does not appear so. For example
I changed it to
Leather - 4
Light Mail - 6
Heavy Mail - 8
Partial Plate - 10
Full Plate - 11
Advanced Plate - 13
I'm sure you could do it, too...
No it doesn't, whilst appearing to only give +1 according to the unit card, it does infact give +2/2.5 per level for each upgrade. It does not follow the armour level progression. I was part of a group of people here who did extensive testing to find this out.
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