PDA

View Full Version : KotR King of the Romans OOC thread IX



Pages : [1] 2 3

econ21
07-23-2007, 01:34
This thread is for all out of character discussion of the King of the Romans PBM - a HRE M2TW game. Please post in this thread if you have any queries or are unsure where to post.

The list of players and description of their avatars is maintained in the first post of the Chancellor and Governors thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383081&postcount=1



*************KOTR FAQ (UPDATED)**********************

The following paragraphs are designed to provide a simple understanding of the KOTR game and how it works. If anything in these paragraphs conflicts with one of the Game Rules, the Rule takes precedent.

Introduction

The general idea of the King of the Romans (KOTR) game is to allow a large group of players to determine the fate and development of the Holy Roman Empire in M2TW.

All players are “Electors” and will belong to one of the four Ducal Houses, Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). Eventually all players will be represented by an in-game character known as an “avatar.” This will typically be a general, but agents such as spies, priests or diplomats can be used as well upon request. It is not advisable to use an assassin as an avatar, as they have short life expectancies. If a player’s avatar gets into a battle, the player is expected to download the savegame and fight the battle.

Collectively, the Electors form the Imperial Diet. This has two functions - to elect a Chancellor and to create Edicts. The Chancellor will be the “reigning player” and control the game during his term in office. He will move all the generals, authorize any buildings from the build queues and train any units/agents. “Edicts” are laws that require the Chancellor to take specific actions. These can be very wide ranging in scope, but typically include such things as declaring war against another nation, seeking an alliance with a neutral country, or making peace with an enemy nation.

How to Join the Game

In order to join the game and get started, all you need to do is post in the current OOC thread that you would like to join and select one of the four Ducal Houses. You can then start participating in as much or as little detail as you wish. You will always be able to find the location of the relevant game threads in the second post of the Imperial Library (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383644&postcount=2).

The Ranks

KOTR attempts to mimic the feudal political system of medieval Europe. There are several ranks which each player can obtain, all of which come with their own benefit and responsibilities. If you wish to be highly involved, you can take on roles that require more work and responsibility. If you wish to simply observe and cast votes during election times, you will have to do very little. The extent of your involvement is entirely up to you.

Electors

All players, except the Emperor, are Electors, even if they hold another rank. It is the lowest rank in the game and all new players begin at this level. As an Elector, you may speak in the Imperial Diet, propose one Edict per session, vote on Edicts, and vote for Chancellor. All Electors belong to one of the Ducal Houses. You are not required to follow the orders or suggestions of your Duke, but he has the ability to bestow and remove ranks and privileges. If you have ambitions to rise to a higher rank, carefully consider whether your Duke will approve of your actions or not.

It is important to remember that you can only freely propose one personal Edict per Diet session. Choose an issue that is important to you and think very carefully about how you word it. A poorly worded or unimportant Edict can easily be ignored and forgotten. The only way you can propose more than one Edict per Diet session is through the approval of your Duke.

Electors will be provided with avatars on the basis of seniority; first come, first served. Generals are the most popular avatars and there may be a waiting period to obtain one. Agent avatars can usually be obtained quickly, but are not as complex and are not really suited for players who wish to rise to a higher rank. If you take a general as an avatar, you will be expected to fight any battles the avatar gets into, assuming he commands the army. You will have 48 hours in which to fight the battle after you are notified about it. When that time expires, the battle will be autoresolved, which could result in the death of your avatar. If you do not want to fight battles and there is a shortage of generals for avatars, please do not accept one. If you want an avatar but do not wish to fight, please consider using an agent.

Counts

Counts are prominent nobles within their Houses. The title of Count can be bestowed upon an Elector by his Duke. The role of Count is identical to that of an Elector with a general avatar, with a few exceptions.

A Count rules over one of the settlements (city or castle) in his Ducal House. The Count may, at his discretion, determine the order in which buildings are created in that settlement (build queue). The Chancellor is not required to build anything in the settlement, but if something is built, it must be in the order determined by the Count. The Count can also set the tax rate in his settlement, if it is a city. Counts gain a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. Counts can name an heir to take over their lands when they die. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar who is not already a Count.

There are two kinds of Counts: Freehold Counts and Bonded Counts. The difference is simple. Freehold Counts are the natural born sons of a Duke. They cannot be removed from control of their settlement, though the Duke can still name another as his heir if a Freehold Count displeases him. Bonded Counts are non-blood sons of a Duke, such as adoptees, sons-in-law, or anyone else who is not a natural born son. Bonded Counts can be stripped of their titles and lands at any time and for any reason by the Duke.

Dukes

Dukes are the heads of the Houses. They are figures of authority and they wield a great deal of power. There is only one Duke per House and a player can only become Duke by being the Duke’s heir at the time of his death. The role of Duke has many more powers than that of Count and Dukes gain a significant influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

The Duke rules over the capital of his House and all provinces which do not have a Count. Just like with a Count, the Duke can determine the build queue and tax rate for these settlements, but he can give orders for as many of them as he wishes. Dukes are also responsible for promoting and demoting Bonded Counts. A Duke may give any Elector with a general avatar the rank of Count, making them a Bonded Count. He may take away their lands at any time or switch their lands as he sees fit. The Duke can name an heir to take over as head of his House when he dies. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar, and it is recommended (though not necessary) that the person already be a Count.

The Duke is responsible for managing the affairs of his House and will often be dealing directly with the Chancellor and the Kaiser in high-level political discussions. Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. These can be the Duke’s own Edicts, but it is recommended that the Duke pick at least some of them from amongst the ‘extras’ his Electors want to put forward. It would be entirely appropriate for the Duke to use incentives and threats to ensure that the policies he wants get put forward. However, remember that even these extra Edict proposals must come pre-seconded by two members of his House. Don’t anger too many of your Electors or they could prevent you from using your extra Edict proposals!

Finally, the Duke controls the Household Army. The Household Army is the House’s personal military force and it is largely independent of outside control. The Duke is responsible for determining where it is garrisoned, who commands it, and what orders it is given. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Stewards

Stewards are Electors who are temporarily acting as Dukes. KOTR originally started with two Stewards, but for the most part, the title of Steward is a temporary one bestowed on a House Elector for a short time when a Duke is unavailable to fulfill his duties. In reality, this happens when a player who is a Duke is going on vacation or is otherwise going to be out-of-touch with the game for a short period of time.

Stewards have all of the powers of Dukes for the duration of their term, except that they cannot name an heir.

Emperor (Kaiser)

The Holy Roman Emperor is the supreme head of the Empire. It is a hereditary position. (Note: This is not historical, but there’s no way to change this in-game.) While the Emperor is theoretically the most powerful man in the entire Empire, in the KOTR game he plays a more subtle role. The Emperor gains an influence bonus equal to his authority during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

First, the Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet. It is his job to maintain order in the Diet and ensure that it runs smoothly. If there is a dispute about the Game Rules, the Emperor will make the final decision about the proper manner to follow the Rules.

Second, the Emperor does not belong to any of the Ducal Houses. Upon inheriting the throne, they leave their old House for good and lose any other titles (Elector, Count, Duke) that they might have. The Emperor is expected to act for the good of the Empire, rather than an individual House. While Emperors are expected to be impartial, they will certainly have strong opinions about what is best for the Empire. This may in turn result in them siding with Houses that support their decisions and working against Houses that they believe are hurting the Empire.

Third, Emperors allocate newly captured provinces to the Ducal Houses. When a province is captured, it comes under the direct control of the Emperor, who can control them in the same manner that the Dukes and the Counts can control their own lands. The Emperor may allocate any of his lands to any of the Ducal Houses. Once allocated, they cannot ever be returned to the Emperor. House provinces where are re-taken after being occupied by an enemy do not count as being “captured.”

Fourth, Emperors decide which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.

Finally, Emperors can automatically assume the position of Chancellor for the first term after they are crowned. This power is not subject to Diet vote and no one can run against them. However, the Emperor still has the limitations of Chancellor while in office, which means he can be impeached by the Diet in exceptional circumstances. Any further attempts by the Emperor to be Chancellor must go through the normal election process.

Prince (Prinz)

The Prince is a largely unimportant role, significant mainly because he is the heir to the throne and will become the next Emperor. Unlike the title of Emperor, the title of Prince is added in addition to any other titles the player holds. This gives the player a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. The Prince’s only duty is to preside over the Diet when the Emperor is absent.

There is no control over who becomes the new Prince once the current one assumes the throne. Like with the Emperor, this is a limitation imposed on us by the game itself. With luck, the role will only fall on players who seek to be active in the game. (*cross your fingers!*)

In practical terms, players must always remember that the Prince will inherit the throne, thus gaining power over the Houses through his ability to allocate newly conquered provinces. If you make an enemy of the Prince, your House might find itself smaller than the others when he becomes Emperor.

Chancellor

The position of Chancellor is without a doubt the most important and powerful one in KOTR. In game terms, the Chancellor is the person who actually plays the M2TW game. Unlike the other positions, you shouldn’t think of the Chancellor in the sense of what he can do, but rather what he cannot do. He is essentially playing the single player M2TW campaign with the following restrictions:

The Chancellor must obey the Game Rules and Edicts that have been passed by the Diet. Failure to do so can lead to impeachment by the Diet.

The Chancellor decides whether buildings are to be constructed in all settlements. If a settlement has a build queue from a Count, Duke, or Emperor, then he must build the items on that list in the order listed. However, he does not have to build anything at all if he does not want to, he only has to follow the build queue if he does decide to build something. If a settlement has no build queue for whatever reason, the Chancellor can build whatever he likes.

The Chancellor moves the armies and hands out saved games to be played by the appropriate generals. He can fight battles that his avatar is commanding whenever he wants without pause, but must give other players 48 hours to fight their battles. If a player exceeds the time limit or if the battle is lead by a Captain or a general that is not represented by a player, the battle must be autoresolved. The only exception to the Chancellor’s control over the armies are the Household Armies. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Essentially everything else is free game. If there isn’t a Rule or Edict about it, the Chancellor can do whatever he wants. The Chancellor’s term last for 10 game turns (20 game years), but he can run for re-election if he wishes. In recognition for his contributions, the Chancellor gets a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor, even after he leaves office.


***************KOTR GAME RULES**************

Game settings

*MT2TW with the 1.2 patch
*Hard campaigns, very hard battles.
*Large unit size.
*Battle timer on. Show CPU Moves, Manage all Settlements
Standard victory conditions (45 provinces, including Rome).

Charter Amendment 6.2: Medifix will no longer be used and in its stead, FactionHeir's trait and ancillary fixes will be implemented. He will also take full responsibility of any issues regarding these files, however unlikely these may be after extensive testing.

The only mod we will use is the trait and ancillary files created by factionheir, available to download at:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix126.zip

The readme is in the spoiler tags.


KOTRfixREADME.txt
-
START OF README
-
Version 1.26 (16-07-2007)


This package contains 2 folders and 6 files, one of which is the readme you are currently reading.
I have included folders as this will make it easier for you to figure where a file is to go and prevent errors.
As you can see, one folder is named "data" and another one inside this data folder is labelled "text"
To install the fixes, simply extract/move the data folder directly from the package into your root medieval directory.
This means that after doing so, you should find following files in your medieval/data folder:
export_descr_character_traits.txt
export_descr_ancillaries.txt
export_descr_vnvs_enums.txt

And a folder in your data folder named "text"
Inside that folder, you should find:
export_ancillaries.txt.string.bin
export_VnVs.txt.strings.bin


You do not need to extract the readme, as this is purely informational for this installation only.

In short (for the impatient and to quick check):

-Extract data folder directly into medieval game directory.
-Make sure your medieval directory now has a data folder (already present before extracting) and a text folder within (usually not present before)
-Make sure the following files are found inside the data folder:
export_descr_character_traits.txt
export_descr_ancillaries.txt
export_descr_vnvs_enums.txt
-Make sure the following files are found inside the text folder:
export_ancillaries.txt.string.bin
export_VnVs.txt.strings.bin


Now to apply those fixes, you will need to run your medieval game exe using a shortcut or a bat file.
The target of said file should read similar to this:

D:\Medieval\medieval2.exe --io.file_first

Where "D:\Medieval\" varies depending on your installation but medieval2.exe --io.file_first should be constant.

If you encounter any issues with my fixes, please let me know via any means you feel necessary and I will investigate.
As per current version, there are no errors showing up in the medieval error log that are from these fixes.

Also note that those fixes work retroactively in any savegame and at the same time also allow a savegame to continue working without the fixes installed.
As such, it is perfectly safe to use and will not necessitate its continued usage once a game is started.
However as per Charter Amendment 6.2 for the KOTR PBM, this fix is to be used by the chancellor currently running the game.

I hope you enjoy the fixes and if you have problems or suggestions, please let me know.

FactionHeir

-
END OF README



At a later stage, we may use a mod to give the Forlorn Hope 2 hitpoints.

Charter Amendment CAE1.1: econ21 will be authorised to give AI factions extra florins; for example, by gifting them a lump sum every 10 turns or so.

To increase the difficulty, the AI will periodically be given money via the consol.

The console command to give 10000 florins to Hungary is:

add_money hungary, 10000

The list of major factions is:

england
france
spain
venice
sicily
milan
scotland
byzantium
russia
moors
turks
egypt
denmark
portugal
poland
hungary

The Mongols, Timurids and Aztecs may be included at a later stage.

Probably the best practice is to top up factions with less than 50k, at a rate of perhaps 10k per turn.



Hard restrictions on play: * only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.

How to play - detailed rules


1. The role of players.

1.1 Each player will roleplay an “elector” of the HRE. They must choose one of four noble houses to belong to. Players are born into a noble House. It is in their blood and cannot be changed. It is determined by which of the four lines on the family tree their avatar falls under (except for the three starter Generals, for whom it is determined by their initial geography). [Note - if avatars spawn disproportionately in certain Houses, Electors of one House may be offered an avatar of another, but then they effectively role-play a new character.]

*Charter Amendment 9.2: Add to article 1.1:
In view of exceptional circumstances, the von Mahren family is allowed to join the House of Austria.

1.2 Over time, all players will be assigned an avatar (typically a general) by econ21 to represent them. They should roleplay their traits.

1.3 Players whose avatars lead in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved.

OOC Charter Amendment:
(a) Where there are multiple player controlled generals in a stack, then the player who plays out the battle is determined by who the computer designates is in command.
(b) An exception is that Household Armies (and the Army of Outremer) are always commanded by the designated Commander of said army.
(c) The commanding general may allow another player to fight a battle by mutual consent for OOC reasons.

1.4 Players whose avatars are Counts are entitled to set the taxes and build queue of that settlement. If anything is built in the settlement, it must be the first item on the build queue.
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 1: Amend 1.4 by adding: If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Chancellor can build what he likes. The Chancellor may upgrade a settlement at any time (ie upgrade the walls regardless of a build queue), unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the governor.

1.5 Each elector will periodically vote to elect a Chancellor (reigning player) of the HRE and on edicts to direct him.

1.6 Players are encouraged to stand for the post of Chancellor.

1.7 Players are encouraged to write in-character stories in the stories thread; to discuss matters of state in the Imperial Diet deliberations thread; to write-up battle reports; to PM each other in character for role-playing etc. [Note: when posting screenshots, we could keep them full size but put them under spoiler tags.]


2. The role of the Chancellor.

2.1 The Chancellor is much like the player of a solo M2TW campaign - he moves all the units and agents on the map; he decides all the buildings and which units/agents to be trained.

2.2 However, he delegates battles to the player whose general leads the HRE force. And he follows the build queues and tax policies of players with governors.

2.3 He also must obey Imperial edicts and the constitution (these rules) or face political consequences.

2.4 The Chancellor is elected every 10 turns. Incumbent Chancellors can run for re-election if they wish.

2.5 The Chancellor must appoint army commanders. He must maintain a list of who has what post and notify players if they are appointed or dismissed from a role.

2.6 Battles are only fought manually when commanded by a player controlled general who is an army commander. They are autoresolved in all other cases (e.g. captain-led armies).

Charter Amendment E2.1:
(a) If an Edict to impeach the Chancellor is passed with a 2/3 majority, he is removed from office immediately.
(b) After impeachment, a fresh election is held to elect a new Chancellor, although a Kaiser may also exercise his perogative to be Chancellor at that point.
(c) The Chancellor replacing an impeached Chancellor serves out the remainder of the impeached Chancellor's term.
(d) All edicts passed in the Diet that elected the impeached Chancellor remain valid, unless overturned by new Edicts at the Emergency Session that impeached him.
(e) An impeached chancellor is not granted the additional bonus to influence that an ex-chancellor would normally be given.

*Charter Amendment 11.5: All cities must have their maximum amount of free upkeep militia within their walls all times, except when the militia is used to fight armies observed to be within the boundaries of their province.


3. The role of the Imperial Diet

3.1. The Imperial Diet will meet in session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each session lasts 3 days of real time.

3.2. At each session, nobles can propose edicts. These require two seconders to be put to the vote. Edicts are laws that direct what the Chancellor should do.

Charter Ammendment 5.2: Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose THREE House edicts per Diet provided that they have previously securing the backing of two other members of their House.

3.3. Any declaration of war must be authorised by an Imperial edict. The Chancellor or any Duke is empowered to declare war on a non-allied army entering its lands.

Charter Amendment 10.2:
(a) No settlement will be captured without an Edict authorising its acquisition in advance.
(b) Captured settlements will be abandoned or given away unless, at the next Diet session, a Charter Amendment incorporates them formally as part of the Reich.
(c) The 33 existing provinces of the Reich are exempt from (a) and (b).
(d) This amendment overrides the constitutional right of Household Armies to conquer one neighbouring province.
Proposed: Kaiser Henry
Seconded: Conrad Salier, Ansehelm von Kastilien

*3.4. The rules of the game can be changed by a Noble Charter Amendments (2/3 majority required) except those marked with a *.

3.5. Tied edicts fail. If contradictory edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority.

3.6. Edicts can only last for 10 turns.

3.7. Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

*3.8. The Chancellor can be impeached and removed from office by a 2/3 majority of the Imperial Diet.

3.9. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final. The Prince can preside in the absence of the Emperor. The Emperor can call an emergency session of the Imperial Diet - freeze the game - at will.
Charter Amendment 8.2: In addition to the Kaiser, an Emergency Session of the Diet may be called by the Prinz, or if three of the four House leaders (Dukes or Stewards) agree to do so.

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +6 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 4 points):
Duke: +3
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.

Charter Amendment 6.7: Any decision that would lead to the excommunication of the Reich has to be authorized by a Diet vote, requiring a 2/3 majority. In the event of a conflict, this Amendment supercedes Rule 3.3 and Charter Amendment 5.1.


4. The role of the four houses - Dukes and Counts

4.1 There will be four houses representing the four main branches of the family tree: Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). At the start of the game, Prince Henry is Duke of Swabia and Leopold is Duke of Austria. The Dukes of Franconia and Bavaria have not yet been spawned (they will be the two males who take positions under the Emperor in the family tree).

4.2 Bavaria and Franconia have no Duke yet, so there are Stewards to act in their place until them. Until there is a Duke, they receive the +2 influence of a Duke.

Charter Amendment 3.1: Stewards may bestow the rank of Count on nobles of their House. This Amendment does not give Stewards any other Ducal power, it does not give Stewards additional Influence, nor does it allow Stewards to be Counts themselves.

The Stewards themselves are not Counts. Like Otto in Innsbruck, they are just soldiers, self-made men of lesser station [think Denethor in Lord of the Rings]. They could be rewarded by being made a Count by their Duke when he spawns, though. And they could marry into the Royal line, potentially becoming the Duke themselves.

4.3 The Emperor controls the initial allocation of settlements (e.g. upon conquest). At the start of the game, we have:

Frankfurt - capital of Franconia, home of the Duke (TBC)
Stafen - capital of Swabia, home of the Duke (Prince Henry)
Nuremburg - capital of Bavaria, home of the Duke (TBC)
Innsbruck - second city of Bavaria
Vienna - capital of Austria, home of the Duke (Leopold)
Bologna - is not assigned to any house

4.4 Dukes can then grant a settlement to a player, making him Count of that settlement. The settlements remain nominally within the relevant Duchy. There are no Counts at the start of the game. Capitals of a House need no Counts and cannot be given to them - they belong to the Duke (or his Steward). The Emperor could allocate Bologna to a House at any time, but after that, it will permanently belong to that House. There is an expectation that Franconia will extend north, Swabia west, Bavaria south and Austria east but this should not be followed too rigidly - e.g. the Emperor does not have to give Bologna to Bavaria.

[Note: It is expected that settlements will not be gifted lightly by the Emperor and by Dukes/Stewards - they should be regarded as precious rewards. There is no particular value to settlements in themselves, however. Avatars will be assigned according to the family tree, so more settlements does not mean more family members in a House - nor does it raise influence (beyond the one-off +1 for being a Count). A player cannot be the Count of more than one settlement. Dukes can have more than one settlement not dispersed to counts (and given the ratio of settlements to generals in a game, this is inevitable), but this provides no particular benefits.]

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

4.6 Counts who are not the natural sons of a Duke (e.g. adoptees and sons in law) may be lose their titles at the whim of the Duke. They are referred to as bonded Counts and are expected to act according to the wishes of their Duke. Natural sons of a Duke may not lose their settlements - they are referred to as freehold Counts.

4.7 Dukes and Counts should name a successor, who will take over their titles and settlements when they die. If no successor is named, the oldest natural son inherits, (if none, oldest adopted son; if none again, then the oldest son-in-law).
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 2: Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.

4.8 Dukes are expected to guide their families for the good for their Duchies. Members of a house do not have to follow their Dukes in terms of politics. However, the Duke can make players a Count by giving them a settlement (granting them +1 influence). Only the Duke of your House (not another Duke) can make you a Count. Houses will not be the only division in the Diet - chivalry, piety, strategy and other factors may also divide players.

Charter Amendment 6.3: Dukes may bestow the title of Count on Electors without avatars.


5 The role of the Emperor and Prince

5.1 The Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet as in 3.9. He is the "chairman" of the HRE, as opposed to the Chancellor who is the "chief executive". He will keep order in the Diet and try to make things run smoothly.

5.2 Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.

5.3 The Emperor can allocate settlements to one of the Four Houses.

5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes.
*Charter Amendment 11.7: The section of the Charter which currently reads "5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes" will be changed to the following: 5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes. However, if a rules dispute directly involves the Emperor, the four Dukes of the Realm (or their appointed deputies) will gather to assist the Emperor in clarifying the dispute. A simple vote among the Dukes would decide the dispute, with the Emperor having the tie-breaking vote.

5.5 The Prince succeeds the Emperor and can deputise in his absence.

*Charter Amendment 11.2:The Prince is appointed by the Emperor upon his ascension to the throne. Should a Prince die a new heir has to be appointed immediately.[/i]

*Charter Amendment 11.1: Whenever a large dispute arises over the legitamacy of one's succesion to a position of high power (Kaiser, King of Outremer, or Dukedom), a council shall be set forth to discuss the events and vote on who shal succede. Should the position of Kaiser be questioned, the four Dukes and the King of Outremer shall decide who is to become Kaiser. Should a Dukedom or the King of Outremer be under dispute, those not directly involved in the dispute shall be part of the council. In order for the council to be formed, at least one quarter of the voting power in the Reich is needed to for the council to be formed. Regarding the dukes, half of the voting period within the house is needed as the same with the King of Outremer which requires half of the crusader's votes.

5.6 Emperors do not belong to factions - if crowned, they leave their House and - if Duke - are replaced by their chosen successor. They are expected to act for the good of the Empire and be impartial, above petty regional politics.

5.7 The Emperor decides which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.


6. Armies and Battles

Rules 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 have been removed.

6.4 For field armies of seven or more units (including the general), the Chancellor must appoint an “army commander”. The army commander must be a “knight”. Army commanders are appointed for the duration of the Imperial Diet session (10 turn intervals). The post is expected to be rotating. Army commanders can decide what to do with prisoners after battle. They can be dismissed by Chancellors, but must be informed of this.

6.5 Avatars who take part in battles may be promoted to “knights” by the army commander. Typically, this will involve the avatar’s bodyguard fighting honourably in a battle. The Emperor, Prince and four Dukes begin the game knighted.

6.6 The title of Field Marshall shall be given to the commanders of the Household Armies for the duration of their command.
Charter Amendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed.

Charter Amendment 5.1: Each Duchy shall have a Household Army with which to defend its territories. The Household Army will be governed by the following clauses:

1) The Household Army may not be removed from the House’s provinces without the permission of the Duke.
2) The Duke will determine where the Household Army is to be garrisoned. This location can be changed at any time, so long as the Duke informs the Chancellor of the move. The Chancellor will not remove the Household Army from the garrison without the Duke’s permission, except as required to fulfill Clause 4.
3) The Duke will determine who commands the Household Army.
4) At the beginning of each Diet session the Duke may assign general orders to the Household Army, which are to be carried out by the Chancellor. Between Diet sessions, any additional orders submitted by Dukes are to be implemented only at the Chancellor's discretion. The Duke may select one of the following Orders: (1) attack any rebel force in House territory, (2) attack any hostile force in House territory, including other factions, (3) attack any foreign or rebel army in House territory, including neutral (but not allied or crusading) factions, (4) temporary assignment to another House, (5) assignment to offensive duties. If Order (4) is chosen, the Duke may determine the time limit of the temporary assignment and the commanding general, but all other decisions are made by the Duke of the receiving house. When the time limit expires, the Household Army must be immediately returned to House lands, no matter what other circumstances occur, unless the Duke agrees otherwise. If Order (5) is chosen, the Duke may specify an enemy settlement or army as the objective and the commanding general. The settlement or army must be in a province that borders the House and the Reich must already be at war with the target. All other decisions are made by the Chancellor. The Duke may recall the Household Army from offensive duties at any time and for any reason.
5) The Household Army will consist of a minimum of 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. The Household Army will ideally consist of 4 infantry regiments, 3 ranged regiments, and 2 cavalry regiments. For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments. All regiments must be professional soldiers, not militia.
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
7) The Chancellor will attempt to maintain the Household Armies at full strength, with the highest quality regiments available.
8) In emergencies, the Chancellor may detach any units in excess of the minimum strength level for use elsewhere. The Chancellor may not reduce a Household Army below the minimum strength level without the permission of the Duke.
9) If the Imperial Treasury cannot support all Household Armies at minimum strength, the Chancellor must consult with the Dukes and receive their permission to reduce the Household Armies in such a way as to eliminate the deficit.
10) The Imperial Diet may temporarily remove any or all of these rules by a simple majority vote. The temporary period will last no longer than 10 turns.

7. Crusades and missions.

7.1 The Chancellor must endeavour to follow missions from the Pope and Council of Nobles, unless exempted by the Diet. Missions from guilds and foreign powers are optional.

7.2 Crusades must be authorised by the Diet, unless announced by another faction.

7.3 When a crusade is called, the Chancellor must ask all generals if they wish to join. He must include at least three volunteers who reply within 48 hours. If there are more than three, he must pick the three most pious. However, he can decline a volunteer if that would usurp his pick of army commander. If the AI calls a crusade, the Chancellor can choose not to follow it, even if generals wish to join - but he must still notify them immediately of the call and get their view on whether they would like to join (were he to follow the call).

*Charter Amendment 9.1:

The Charter of the Kingdom of Outremer

1. The Kingdom of Outremer will consist of Antioch, Acre, Adana, Aleppo, Edessa and Damascus.

2. The Kingdom of Outremer is an integral part of the Reich. It is not a fifth House.

3. The function of the Kingdom is defensive: to safeguard Jerusalem and protect the gateway to Christendom

4. The Kingdom will be overseen by a King of Outremer, who will be appointed by the Emperor at each full Diet session. The King will temporarily renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his appointment (e.g. if Duke, must appoint a Steward). The King of Outremer may propose up to 3 personal Edicts during each Diet session, but 2 must specifically deal with Outremer affairs.

5. The King will command a Household Army, both acting according to Charter Amendment 5.2 (with the King assuming the role of “Duke”). He may delegate the day to day command of the Army (assign other generals to lead it in battle). However, contrary to CA5.2, to be in accordance with article (1), the Army may not be used to permanently conquer neighbouring provinces (recapturing Christian settlements taken by non-Christians and returning them to their original owners would be allowed).

6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count.

7. Both the King and Crusading Counts must be physically located outside Europe for the duration of their appointments.

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia. Antioch will be the capital of Outremer and an Imperial province governed by the King of Outremer. Edessa will also be an Imperial province, governed by a Count chosen by the King of Outremer. The Crusading Count for a settlement must come from the appropriate House. They will gain +1 influence, but only if they are not already a Count in their Duchy, and only for the Diet session that marks their appointment. The cap of 6 influence for all but the Emperor remains.

Charter Amendment 11.3: The King of Outremer is allowed to propose three Edicts (or Charter Amendments) per Diet Session. Prior to being tabled in the Diet, these must be seconded by two Crusader Counts in the Council of Crusaders.

Charter Amendment 11.6: The position of King of Outremer is appointed by the emperor. This appointment lasts for the duration of the emperors reign or the Kings lifetime, whichever is shorter. The King of Outremer is permitted to resign, if the emperor is willing to accept the resignation, upon which a new King is appointed by the emperor. If the King of Outremer is deemed incapable of the assignment, he may be impeached by the emperor and 2 Dukes.

8. Historical armies

Only historical armies can fight battles (ahistorical stacks can be used for transport).

No more than half an army can be mercenary. Crusader mercenaries (crusader sergeants, crusader knights, pilgrims, fanatics) can count as natives.

Revised maxima for each unit type by number of units in stack

3^Type|1-5|6-10|11-15|16+
7^Generals|2|2|2|2
7^Knights|2|4|6|8
7^Cavalry|2|4|6|8
7^Missile inf|2|3|4|6
7^Elite inf|2|3|4|6
7^Other foot|Any|Any|Any|Any
7^Artillery|1|2|3|4


Crusades are exempt from restrictions on the number of generals.

Unit type definitions:
- Knights: Dismtd Feudal knights; Dismtd Imperial knights; Dismtd Gothic knights; Mailed knights; Feudal knights; Imperial knights; Teutonic knights; General’s bodyguard; Gothic knights; plus any mercenary knights or equivalent heavy cavalry.
- Cavalry: Any mounted knights plus non-knightly cavalry (Mounted crossbowmen ; Reiters; Merchant cavalry; Mounted sergeants, Turcomans etc)
-Foot missiles: Peasant archers; Peasant crossbowmen; Crossbow militia; Pavisse crossbowmen; Arquebusiers; Handgunners etc
-Elite infantry: Zweihander; Forlorn Hope; Landsknechts; dismounted knights and equivalent mercs - e.g. Galllowglass
-Other foot: Peasants; Town militia; Halberd militia; Spear militia; Sergeant spearmen; Armoured spearmen; Crusader sergeants; Pike militia

Here's the old german titles of nobility and our equivalents:

Political
Elector = Kurfurst
Count = Graf
Duke = Herzog
Prince = Prinz
Emperor = Kaiser

Military
Knight = Ritter
Field Marshal = Generalfeldmarshal

Northnovas
07-23-2007, 01:51
A couple days away and the game moves along. Quick read on some of the stories that is too bad for Warlusters avatar. It's a worry to have an assigned avatar in your stack and you are in command. Well I guess his passing closes the Danish incident?
Saw the post/pm and will pick up the save to sally. Noting the artillery restrictions.

econ21
07-23-2007, 02:31
As stated in the Outremer thread, I'd like to have a go at the Mongols left south of the Euphrates, if GH authorises it. I'll pick up whatever is the latest savegame in 12 hours or so, unless I hear otherwise.

Ignoramus
07-23-2007, 02:58
It is strange that Elberhard is the new Prinz. Although, as he is Henry's son, it makes far more sense than Siegfried(which Wolfgang is going to accuse him of being a usurper).

GeneralHankerchief
07-23-2007, 03:07
Yeah, but Siegfried made Elberhard his heir, in a sense, "restored" the crown to its proper place.

Too bad Elby is going to die first though.

Northnovas
07-23-2007, 03:13
Latest save

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1256-3.zip

The seige of Adanna was lifted the Turks retreated the general KIA. All prisoners were released.

FactionHeir
07-23-2007, 04:44
Way to go heating up the diet Ignoramus :grin2:

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 04:47
Yeah, I was afraid that the big shock today was going to calm down the Diet. I need my next installment of "as the Diet turns..."

:laugh4:

flyd
07-23-2007, 04:49
You know, maybe we should have a succession dispute. I mean, the game-designated faction leader doesn't have to be our Kaiser, does he?

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 04:52
You know, maybe we should have a succession dispute. I mean, the game-designated faction leader doesn't have to be our Kaiser, does he?

I think it would be fun. But, since the current Kaiser came from Jan's house, I think I'll stay quiet for a little while and let others run around the Diet screaming "usurper!! usurper!!". :laugh4:

Ignoramus
07-23-2007, 04:52
I would be in of it(obviously), and we can sort of have a civil war without fighting.

The Reich splits in two with the territories loyal to Hans/Elberhard as the Loyalists, and territories loyal to Siegfried the Kastilliens.

Each half would have their own Diet and Chancellor. And considering we have so much money, it would make things a real challenge.

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 04:54
I would be in of it(obviously), and we can sort of have a civil war without fighting.

The Reich splits in two with the territories loyal to Hans/Elberhard as the Loyalists, and territories loyal to Siegfried the Kastilliens.

Each half would have their own Diet and Chancellor. And considering we have so much money, it would make things a real challenge.

Seeing as we have so much else going on, this would IC be the worse time to do that and OOC be the best time. Would make for some great fun! :beam:

OverKnight
07-23-2007, 04:54
Screw the monarchy, let's go socialist!

To the barricades! :evilgrin:

Oh wait, that would involve the liquidation of the social class my avatar comes from.

Let's go oligarchy!

flyd
07-23-2007, 04:55
No, no, no. No civil wars. People should work within the framework of the Charter. The Charter says the game tells us who's Kaiser, but the Charter is changable. Feel free to scheme behind the scenes.

FactionHeir
07-23-2007, 04:56
You know, maybe we should have a succession dispute. I mean, the game-designated faction leader doesn't have to be our Kaiser, does he?

Well, that would depend on whether we can pass a CA on that. Current rules I think is to just use the game-appointed one, but that section is not *-marked, so can be amended.

In game, we can easily fix the traits to reflect that, but the only problem will be that any actions done that normally affect the leader only (assassination/spying/diplomacy) go on the game-designated avatar. Of course the thing with authority also comes into play.
Both of these can be fixed manually by transferring over traits/ancillaries via console and manually counting authority.
The only thing that would be outside our control is army rebellion (chance that armies go rebel) as that checks the game-appointed leader only. That one's quite minor though.

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 04:56
Screw the monarchy, let's go socialist!

To the barricades! :evilgrin:

Oh wait, that would involve the liquidation of the social class my avatar comes from.

Let's go oligarchy!

Pampered aristocratic knights of the world unite? :laugh4:

flyd
07-23-2007, 05:26
Well, I'll be damned. It looks like Jan von Hamburg has figured out the IC role that the MTW2, the game itself, plays. It's... god! :laugh4:

Ignoramus
07-23-2007, 05:32
Seriously, let's split. I mean, it can only be fun to have a split. Banning rebellions kills roleplay and gameplay.

Think about it, if you were in the 13th century Holy Roman Empire, and the Kaiser died in battle and the general who was with him declared himself Kaiser, would you meekly say, "Oh well, let's just accept things and move on." Or would you support the true heir?

Come on guys, it's possible.

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 05:32
Well, I'll be damned. It looks like Jan von Hamburg has figured out the IC role that the MTW2, the game itself, plays. It's... god! :laugh4:

:laugh4: Yeah, you can thank my mad wikipedia skillz for that one!

Whats funny is that it would seem to go a little closer to history if we elected our Kaiser. But, since the game picks who it is, we are forced to RP that it is divine right. Because even if we debate IC about how to pick a Kaiser, we are stuck with what the game does. So, I figure it would just be easier to RP that its divine right (since that is keeping with my character's politics and agenda anyways). OOC if people here want to talk about changing it, we'd probably need a mod. And I'm never keen on mods unless the majority want one.

*edit*

Ignoramus: You can pretty much RP anything you want. But, if you actually want to change the mechanics of the game, then we need to figure out what exactly to change and then vote on it. I would be ok with a limited rebellion or civil war mechanic if most of the other players wanted one. I just would pick the other side since that is where my character's loyalty, agenda, and politics lie.

flyd
07-23-2007, 05:39
Ignoramus, I thought the Diet was relatively clear on their opinion on the Charter being ignored when they impeached Hummel unanimously. There is no provision in the Charter for it. If you want it, get it passed.

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 05:43
FD: I edited my Diet post. ;) I think you'll like it. :laugh4:

*edit*

Alright, I'm heading to bed. Hopefully the game won't go through anymore massive shifts while I'm sleeping.

OverKnight
07-23-2007, 06:32
We don't necessarily have to follow the game's lead when it comes to who is Kaiser. It would cause a little disconnect if someone else besides Siegfried emerges as Kaiser, the title in game and the larger force of retainers for one, but that's not a insurmountable obstacle.

As for rebellion, we haven't reached that stage yet. We'll see what develops in the Diet, and go from there. If Siegfried honks off enough Electors, they could pass some pretty crippling CAs, which would be a legislative rebellion, not an armed one.

On one hand it's frustrating, because we all know OOC that the dreaded AI named Siegfried Prince long ago, but it was never acknowledged IC. On the other hand this is fun because we've got high drama in the Diet.

Of course all of us who dared question the inevitable (by game, if not PBM standards) rise of Siegfried might end up with our heads decorating pikes, but I'm a dedicated role player and I'm willing to take that risk. I am glad, however, we're in a constitutional monarchy and not an absolute one. :laugh4:

Warluster
07-23-2007, 07:07
Darn it.

I'm still gonna finish off my story, all leading to a little suprise...

I'm gonna get writing, writing 'bout Jobsts funeral.

Guess I better choose a avatar.

Warluster
07-23-2007, 07:16
Sorry for double post.

Right, I've been shopping for a avatar.

Is Fritz von Kastilien avabile? If so, I'll be him. If not, I'll take the other sparey.

Or do you reckon I should wait for... Jobst's son?

OverKnight
07-23-2007, 08:57
@Warluster - Good read on the funeral. There are a few surprises in there. I see Lothar is carrying on the fine Bavarian tradition of marrying well.

Have you considered staying in Swabia? Jens Hummel is available and is a pretty decent avatar, or you could wait a few turns for Athalwolf. I suggest this because due to most of the available avatars being in Franconia, many of our newer players ended up there.

The breakdown of players (and available avatars). This count doesn't include Ituralde who is now outside the house framework.

Swabia - 4 (2)
Franconia - 6 (4)
Austria - 3 (0)
Bavaria - 4 (0)

An imbalance is beginning to emerge. Also none of the younger avatars are getting married, which means Austria and Bavaria could very quickly run out of replacements for older avatars, such as Gerhard Steffen and Conrad Salier. This would also eventually effect the other houses. Adding Lyse to Bavaria will help, if she has kids, but Austria is still SOL.

Now this may sound kind of odd, but perhaps we should start sending some of our less desirable unclaimed avatars, such as Jens von Kassel, who married into the family in his 40s, to their dooms. This would hopefully nudge the family management AI into offering a few marriages or adoptions into less populated sections of the family tree.

EDIT: Another option, and Faction Heir could probably answer this, is see if it is possible to mod the game to recruit Generals, like in BI. That way, if we run short in one house, we could build a few avatars, and marry them in later if possible.

FactionHeir
07-23-2007, 09:04
Usually you get more marriage offers if all your daughters are married off and you have approx the number of generals to numer of regions.
If you have too few generals or lots of unweds, chances are that those will be offered first.
One thing we could do is change a variable in the campaign_db (something I do for my SP games) to spawn more children. (unsure of effect on marriages, but seems to slightly increase I think)

I won't have access to the game proper for the next 10 days, but I still know most of the things by heart so can post exact step-by-step instructions.

Warluster
07-23-2007, 10:11
FH, your a walking, talking M2TW Encyclopedia ~D ~;p

I think I will stay in Swabia, its grown on me. Will take Athalwolf, could finish off my little story with 'im.

Thanks OK, I tried to mkae it my best one. :)

Ituralde
07-23-2007, 10:33
I have not read the Diet thread yet, so I don't know the exact nature of all accusations, but I must say from what I can gather here, I am quite pleased with the reactions so far. It was in my express intent to have Siegfrieds ascension to the throne be as murky as possible and it looks like I've succeeded.

I will browse through the Diet thread today and try to address the concerns in character. Maybe I'll manage to appease the Diet, maybe not, but either way, I love it! :2thumbsup:

So don't feel any remorse in making my work as Emperor as hard as possible!

Cheers!

Ituralde

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 10:40
Hi guy's,

Turns out I should have stayed at home this sunday!!

Can I only state that House Austria is in danger of dying out if I don't marry someone soon. We can artificially solve that but I'd prefer to have Lyse marry me. I've asked enough IC to warrant a response and have received none.

Warluster what do you think?I'm off to drop some bombs in the Diet.

Brace for impact gentlemen. The Dread Duke coming to party!!

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 10:51
Crap I'm just catching up on all the reading.

TC,

I'll give you 100 florins for Lyse? Deal? :beam:

Stig
07-23-2007, 11:00
I'll fight my battle somewhere today, will post if I pick up the save

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 11:02
Can I ask that we stop using proxies?

It's getting very confusing trying to keep up with everyone's retinue servants.

Mine are involved as you all know but Arnold will always be present.

Call it express horse delivery or whatever. It's intense now so I'd like to know what you all think.

Stig
07-23-2007, 11:07
Letting an aide speak is an easy way of not getting your avatar getting the blame it seems ~D

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 11:45
Well I'm coming after PK and his Tueton. If he wants to hide behind the Black and White cross then it wont work :laugh4:

Igno your PM box is full!!

OverKnight
07-23-2007, 11:52
Ummm. . .just curious, but how would we handle it if two people actually decided to fight a duel? We can only posture so much before the gauntlet is thrown down. :laugh4:

Would rolling of twenty-sided dice be involved?

Ignoramus
07-23-2007, 11:53
PM box has space, AussieGiant.

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 12:03
Thanks. Response sent.

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 12:05
Ummm. . .just curious, but how would we handle it if two people actually decided to fight a duel? We can only posture so much before the gauntlet is thrown down. :laugh4:

Would rolling of twenty-sided dice be involved?

Mate,

I have a dread knight. That shiet will wipe the floor of most things.:laugh4:

Stig
07-23-2007, 12:08
Mate,

I have a dread knight. That shiet will wipe the floor of most things.:laugh4:
Yeah, you should be lucky, Arnold himself is still a little kid :laugh4:

Stig
07-23-2007, 12:14
Taking the save now

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 12:42
I don't understand the Diet OOC comment "your dead m8".

Ignoramus
07-23-2007, 12:43
Sorry AussieGiant, more PM space.

Stig
07-23-2007, 12:44
Fought and won:
https://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d121/the_Stig_/Forumite%20Battle%20Result/0025.jpg

Loads of Poles have been executed ~D

Stig
07-23-2007, 12:45
I don't understand the Diet OOC comment "your dead m8".
Well Markus Steffen is ~D

McIwoo
07-23-2007, 12:53
post edited. As said in the Diet thread, I think it'll look better if my post is deleted.

Have fun guys...

TinCow
07-23-2007, 13:31
You know, maybe we should have a succession dispute. I mean, the game-designated faction leader doesn't have to be our Kaiser, does he?


Well, that would depend on whether we can pass a CA on that. Current rules I think is to just use the game-appointed one, but that section is not *-marked, so can be amended.

In game, we can easily fix the traits to reflect that, but the only problem will be that any actions done that normally affect the leader only (assassination/spying/diplomacy) go on the game-designated avatar. Of course the thing with authority also comes into play.
Both of these can be fixed manually by transferring over traits/ancillaries via console and manually counting authority.
The only thing that would be outside our control is army rebellion (chance that armies go rebel) as that checks the game-appointed leader only. That one's quite minor though.

Yep, CA required, but if it did happen (not saying it will) I think the easiest thing would simply be to leave the in-game traits alone. If the Emperor is not the game-appointed faction leader, just mentally transfer all faction-leader specific traits from the faux-leader to the real leader, subtracting from one and adding to another. If you did it manually, things would get very confusing and screwed up, especially for traits that gain in strength over time.

TinCow
07-23-2007, 13:39
Crap I'm just catching up on all the reading.

TC,

I'll give you 100 florins for Lyse? Deal? :beam:

I'll bow out without complaint if she is offered to you instead, but I don't have the power to decide that. Lothar isn't quite so despicable that he would whore out his own fiancée. It's pretty much an issue as to whether Siegfried will do what Jobst's will requests or not.

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 13:45
I'll bow out without complaint if she is offered to you instead, but I don't have the power to decide that. Lothar isn't quite so despicable that he would whore out his own fiancée. It's pretty much an issue as to whether Siegfried will do what Jobst's will requests or not.

Well that's not going to happen.

I'm concerned Austria may in fact die out entirely. IC I think we should let it happen if it does in the game.

I really don't want to bend game mechanics at all. It will get far to difficult to deal with outside of the game, instead of just adjusting IC which would be easier to deal with due to our collective imagination we all seem to posses
:laugh4:

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 13:46
Ituralde,

Who is Count von Hamburg?

Ituralde
07-23-2007, 13:59
Jan von Hamburg, of course! Don't really know if he's Count though, but a sudden ascension to power can make you a little uneasy about all those little details.

TinCow
07-23-2007, 14:00
FYI, we have four empty Bio slots in the Library, which means we are four avatars under out peak at the moment. Hence the scarcity. I think Franconia is about as flush with children as it's possible to be, so hopefully the other houses should start getting more soon. We're about due for a new influx with all the deaths. There are still a few more geezers about to kick it as well, though fortunately those are Franconians, so they won't siphon more players off of the other houses.

Stig
07-23-2007, 14:04
Aye, and when the Kastillien brothers get married there will truly be loads of Franconians.

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 14:10
Jan von Hamburg, of course! Don't really know if he's Count though, but a sudden ascension to power can make you a little uneasy about all those little details.


Well tell him to stop insulting me Ituralde.

I really don't know how anyone expects me to roll over IC considering I'm taking shots from left right and centre and I didn't start any of it.

Stig
07-23-2007, 14:12
Actually he did:

I demand that the Duke of Austria and Count von Hamburg stop their bickering.

StoneCold
07-23-2007, 14:16
TC, don't we have Emperor Jobst char stats somewhere? I feel sad that in the Mausoleum where he is buried and he is only remembered as a Prinz.

TinCow
07-23-2007, 14:29
I am going to load up old saves and take pre-death shots of Jobst and Matthias this evening.

TinCow
07-23-2007, 14:31
Have fun guys...

Are you leaving the game? I really hope not. There are plenty of avatars available at the moment, though not in Bavaria. We can earmark the next Bavarian for you if you want to stay in that House. Again, I'm really sorry I got you killed. I felt horrible about it when it happened.

Stig
07-23-2007, 14:34
I think Ituralde can agree to something like that :laugh4:


Seriously tho McIwoo you can easely become a Franconian, or take the last Swabian.
Or you might have to wait another 16 years or so if Lothar can get to his job :bounce:

econ21
07-23-2007, 14:42
Stig - please can you upload your post battle save? I'd like to fight my battle now.

Stig
07-23-2007, 14:48
Oh cock (am I allowed to say that at a moment like this)

I totally forgot about it, and don't have it here really, will do as fast as possible, but may take a while.
Sorry m8

OverKnight
07-23-2007, 14:49
I am going to load up old saves and take pre-death shots of Jobst and Matthias this evening.

Huh? Wait? What!?

Oh, Markus is the middle brother, Matthias is the youngest.

I hope that's not a Fruedian slip there TC. :laugh4:

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 14:52
I made the same mistake. TC's just a little excited about all the action :laugh4:

TinCow
07-23-2007, 14:55
Ug, sorry. For some reason I keep getting Markus and Matthias mixed up. (Name-wise only, I know perfectly well who is who otherwise.)

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 14:58
I must say I'm enjoying myself immensely at the moment.

It's a pitty I have to go again overseas on Thursday for TWO BLOODY MONTHS!!!

Ituralde you're going to have play my battles again.

Actually, what I was thinking is having Cecil do them?

What do you think? IC I'm trying to get him his own command but it seems impossible at the moment due to lack of forces.

Maybe I should head east and crush a few mongols and he can take over the AHA defense of teh eastern border.

Anyone got any ideas?

Ituralde
07-23-2007, 15:09
You could just hand over the leadership of the AHA to Cecil and move Arnold to Vienna or Venice or Ragusa for administrative duties.

econ21
07-23-2007, 15:13
AussieGiant, I think Arnold has done pretty well picking up battle-related traits and ancillaries. Your going overseas could perhaps coincide with Arnold focussing on the more political and administrative sides of being a Duke. When you leave, and with Budapest safe, I would park Arnold in Vienna and give Sigismund command of the AHA so CecilXIX gets a chance at build up his avatar.

[EDIT: Ituralde beat me to it. We're a good Kaiser/Prinz combo already!]

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 15:28
Can I ask that we stop using proxies?

It's getting very confusing trying to keep up with everyone's retinue servants.

Mine are involved as you all know but Arnold will always be present.

Call it express horse delivery or whatever. It's intense now so I'd like to know what you all think.


Letting an aide speak is an easy way of not getting your avatar getting the blame it seems

Sorry, I was trying to RP that I'm in Outremer. It would be wierd if I commuted hundreds of miles to work every day. And I was never trying to avoid blame. I sent that letter to the Diet expressly asking that Jan take whatever punishment is dished out. It wasn't an attempt to lob bombs from behind a big hulking Teuton. It was just my attempt to RP the immense distance that is between Jan and the Diet. I figured I'd have him come over for important stuff like Diet meetings but I'll try to have him come over more often. Jobts's funeral provides a good enough excuse. I've PM'd AG so we can try to coordinate on some conflict.

*edit*

Also, I've noticed many other people using proxies to send messages and so forth. Thats what gave me the original idea. But, I concede that for more intense RP'ing, my character should be there in person so I will change that.

McIwoo
07-23-2007, 15:37
Are you leaving the game? I really hope not. There are plenty of avatars available at the moment, though not in Bavaria. We can earmark the next Bavarian for you if you want to stay in that House. Again, I'm really sorry I got you killed. I felt horrible about it when it happened.

I felt like I arrived too late in the game to have as nearly as much fun as you anyway. I'll try to keep an eye open to make sure I dun miss the biggining of the next interesting PBM (I haven't watched the ones recently started so I might have missed it already...).

On a side note I have started one on EB with a few mates wich takes quite a lot of my time and will...

So, as I said have fun.

Stuperman
07-23-2007, 16:02
I felt like I arrived too late in the game to have as nearly as much fun as you anyway. I'll try to keep an eye open to make sure I dun miss the biggining of the next interesting PBM (I haven't watched the ones recently started so I might have missed it already...).

On a side note I have started one on EB with a few mates wich takes quite a lot of my time and will...

So, as I said have fun.


I'd hate to see you go McIwoo, There will always be a place for you in Bavaria.

I'm back, kinda, don't have access to the game for another 36 hours unfortunately. I'm still working on the Diet thread, but Whoa, a lot has happened in the last 3 days.

Hopefully Kordula will get married soon and keep Bavaria going for now.

gibsonsg91921
07-23-2007, 16:09
cmon dude stay and take like dieter bresch or someone in franconia! we could always use more meatshields against the poles and ruskis! lol you should stay man

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 16:10
cmon dude stay and take like dieter bresch or someone in franconia! we could always use more meatshields against the poles and ruskis! lol you should stay man

Well, Dieter is in Outremer. So, he can be a meatshield against the Mongols. :beam:

Stig
07-23-2007, 16:11
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1256-4.rar
Here it is Econ, better late than never
:hide:

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 16:22
I really don't know how anyone expects me to roll over IC considering I'm taking shots from left right and centre and I didn't start any of it.

Well, technically you did start it. :laugh4:

You took two large looming figures into the Diet for the purpose of intimidation. Then you bragged about doing acts that would offend those with high chivalry and piety. You didn't honestly expect OOC for everyone in the Diet to be quiet did you? So, since no one else was saying much, and it fit my character's personality, I stepped up. Now our characters are in a face off and its been great fun. I'm sad that you have to leave for two months. Hopefully, we can PM and get a story going so we can at least both have partial resolution before you leave. Finally someone's character is interacting with mine and he's going to leave for a couple months... :shame:

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 16:29
Well, technically you did start it. :laugh4:

You took two large looming figures into the Diet for the purpose of intimidation. Then you bragged about doing acts that would offend those with high chivalry and piety. You didn't honestly expect OOC for everyone in the Diet to be quiet did you? So, since no one else was saying much, and it fit my character's personality, I stepped up. Now our characters are in a face off and its been great fun. I'm sad that you have to leave for two months. Hopefully, we can PM and get a story going so we can at least both have partial resolution before you leave. Finally someone's character is interacting with mine and he's going to leave for a couple months... :shame:


Don't worry PK, I'm not gone from the PBM. The only difference between me being at home and away is I can't fight my battle personally. That's it.

I didn't get back from Canada until last Wednesday so you never really notice.

I'd say I'm going to take Econ and Ituralde's advise and have Cecil take over.

As for the roleplaying of retinue dudes, it's gone well I think.

Problem is when you go an insult a Duke through a proxy then you better make sure your proxy has some protection. Especially a Duke with that much Dread going on.

I'll PM you for further ideas :)

TinCow
07-23-2007, 16:37
Problem is when you go an insult a Duke through a proxy then you better make sure your proxy has some protection. Especially a Duke with that much Dread going on.

Time for more stabbings in the Senate Diet?

FactionHeir
07-23-2007, 16:39
Hmm I might just have heated up things a bit more...
Please note I might not be able to respond till in maybe 9-10 hours from now. Vacation doesnt leave much spare time

TinCow
07-23-2007, 16:44
Hmm I might just have heated up things a bit more...
Please note I might not be able to respond till in maybe 9-10 hours from now. Vacation doesnt leave much spare time

I love it! I definitely think a legislative struggle for the throne would be interesting. However, I suggest we simply wait for the 1260 election to do it. It's only 2 turns off and the idea of a third emergency session in one Chancellorship term makes me dizzy. Perhaps the 1260 session could be a couple days longer than normal to give added debate time.

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 16:47
I love it! I definitely think a legislative struggle for the throne would be interesting. However, I suggest we simply wait for the 1260 election to do it. It's only 2 turns off and the idea of a third emergency session in one Chancellorship term makes me dizzy. Perhaps the 1260 session could be a couple days longer than normal to give added debate time.

I think that is the way to go. We're going a bit bonkers right now as it is without another Emergency session.

FH!! You're bloody mad mate!!:laugh4: I'll get back to you soon.

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 16:59
Don't worry PK, I'm not gone from the PBM. The only difference between me being at home and away is I can't fight my battle personally. That's it.

I didn't get back from Canada until last Wednesday so you never really notice.

I'd say I'm going to take Econ and Ituralde's advise and have Cecil take over.

As for the roleplaying of retinue dudes, it's gone well I think.

Problem is when you go an insult a Duke through a proxy then you better make sure your proxy has some protection. Especially a Duke with that much Dread going on.

I'll PM you for further ideas :)

I'm very glad that your still going to be around to write up stories and make Jan's life as miserable as possible. As for protection, Teutons have enough of that going on. They have a whole order that is like a brotherhood.

"Hooked on Teutonics works for me!"

:laugh4:

gibsonsg91921
07-23-2007, 17:02
the only problem with FH's idea is that we wouldnt be able to change the in-game emperor. and i want a franconian kaiser who is my little brother haha!

Ituralde
07-23-2007, 17:03
Oh man, keeping the peace in the Diet is surely more work than I thought.
Being Emperor is like watching over a group of toddlers. A group of toddlers with Dread Knights for friends! :laugh4:

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 17:05
Well get ready Ituralde.

Jan's gone and pressed the red button by doing what he did.

I'm warming up the peeps for some serious non player character action!! :laugh4:

Stuperman
07-23-2007, 17:06
I love it! I definitely think a legislative struggle for the throne would be interesting. However, I suggest we simply wait for the 1260 election to do it. It's only 2 turns off and the idea of a third emergency session in one Chancellorship term makes me dizzy. Perhaps the 1260 session could be a couple days longer than normal to give added debate time.


That sounds like a good Idea, a very good Idea, I was also thinking that there needs to be some major legislation as well, if there's time today I'll post smoething in-house thread.

gibsonsg91921
07-23-2007, 17:07
i like being related to the emperor - itll make peter more of a statesman than a rabble-rouser i think.

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 17:08
Oh man, keeping the peace in the Diet is surely more work than I thought.
Being Emperor is like watching over a group of toddlers. A group of toddlers with Dread Knights for friends! :laugh4:


Well, AG and I have been PM'ing so prepare for some columns shaking in the Diet!

:laugh4:

gibsonsg91921
07-23-2007, 17:15
whats the point of an election? would we just ignore the ingame emperor and have another person be him? i think ituralde's deserved it.

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 17:16
The towers been buzzed!!

Brace for further fly by requests!! :balloon2:

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 17:28
The towers been buzzed!!

Brace for further fly by requests!! :balloon2:

The plane has been shot down by an AA missle! Let the games begin!

I just replied to your Diet post and I quoted yours so people will know to look at it since you added the text later. It will look a little out of place after the Kaiser just asked us to be quiet and remove weapons but oh well. It jives pretty well.

*edit*

Oh my god I am laughing my !@# off at TC's Diet post!

GeneralHankerchief
07-23-2007, 18:27
Hmm, judging by the OOC posts it seems that I'm lucky that I work outside, otherwise, I wouldn't have gotten anything done today.

Checking up on Diet posts now.

Stuperman
07-23-2007, 18:37
I thought that TC's post was genius as well, glad to see that everyone is still getting along OOC as it's getting intense IC.

econ21
07-23-2007, 18:43
I'm downloading Stig's save now and going to fight my battle shortly.

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 18:45
I thought that TC's post was genius as well, glad to see that everyone is still getting along OOC as it's getting intense IC.

Yeah, that is key. This is all pointless if we get hurt OOC. Thats why I've been careful to work closely with AG in regards to the drama our characters are causing. Any story you see that regards the both of us will have been fully approved and endorsed by the both of us. I also happily encourage any of you to talk to me OOC if you wish to get stories going or whatever. Its important that when the tension hightens IC, that we keep showing the love OOC. ~:grouphug:

Stig
07-23-2007, 18:49
Gah, bloody dilemma. Franconians wanted to lynch other people, Ansehelm not agreeing with it.

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 18:49
It's all under control. :balloon2:

All men have been issued with handbags and the appropriate head gear to prevent any serious loss of blood.:laugh4:

econ21
07-23-2007, 22:01
Elberhard fought his battle against the Mongols:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kot1256-5.zip

Battle report imminent.

TinCow
07-23-2007, 22:01
Great story, AG & PK. Will Jan be voting by absentee ballot from now on?

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 22:10
It's only half way through TC, and one of our grand master writers GH just expressed interest in helping out PK with part two.

I'm sure its gonna be a cracker.

Postal voting might become in fashion to prevent loss of limbs. :laugh4:

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 22:12
I'm not sure if anyone noticed but FD just had a loss to the Mongols.

Things look like they could get interesting.

I like it!!!

Stig
07-23-2007, 22:16
Gah at your abbreviations, I can't figure out who is FD

Privateerkev
07-23-2007, 22:18
Gah at your abbreviations, I can't figure out who is FD

FD is FLYdude. Too bad we can't abbreviate your name much more than it is. Kind of hard to shorten Stig. Mabey we can call you S. :laugh4:

TinCow
07-23-2007, 22:21
FD = FLYdude.

That's one of our first real losses so far (excluding autocalc) and a bad one at that. Almost all of an Imperial Outremer army destroyed for half of one Mongol stack. In general, I'm very pleased with how this game is going. The OOC changes we made about halfway through to increase difficulty really seem to have started paying off. We've already had 4 deaths in battle (5 if you count Ulrich's pseudo-suicide). Add the total lack of unity in the Diet into the mix, and we're actually far from secure. A big change from where we were by this time in WOTS.

Stig
07-23-2007, 22:21
Ah thanks m8

And no I choose this name, because it's already an abbreviation

AussieGiant
07-23-2007, 22:28
Good night guys.

Have a great time and I'm also loving this right now.

The uncertainty is creating some real story telling.

I really like the way everyone is dealing with the avatar losses and that is creating a lot more realism. With FD's loss we are certainly wide open out east.

Maybe Arnold's got to go Horse Hunting. Grom seems to have a talent for it :laugh4:

gibsonsg91921
07-23-2007, 23:31
sweet - nice story AG and PK.

hey stig - we should do a story about our reactions to siegfried becoming kaiser

TinCow
07-24-2007, 00:00
TC, don't we have Emperor Jobst char stats somewhere? I feel sad that in the Mausoleum where he is buried and he is only remembered as a Prinz.

Pre-death shots of Jobst and Markus are now in the Mausoleum.

I'm also very interested to see what happened with Elberhard. I can't tell if he fought and then withdrew or won and then moved afterwards, but regardless his army has been totally wrecked. There are 3 full Mongol armies still around and now only Conrad Salier's army is capable of taking them on, though there seems to be enough men on hand in some of the castles/cities to form a second army.

flyd
07-24-2007, 00:03
Oh, you guys complain too much. I think I'm gonna run through the end of the term, and then retire to watch the fireworks!

gibsonsg91921
07-24-2007, 00:44
im glad we're losing out east and have turmoil back home.. it makes it interesting!

flyd
07-24-2007, 01:43
We're moving right along. I'll provide a Chancellor's report immediately as a few things of note have happened in 1258.

Battle Queue for 1258.

Initial save: http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1258.zip

Kaiser Seigfried

Kaiser Seigfried,

I must say, I was impressed with the way you handled the Danes last time. They're no Horse Lords, but there were very many. I personally thank you for defending Hamburg.

Unfortunately, you are called upon to do so again. Another large Danish army has come out of the north, and besieged Hamburg. Your army has been reinforced, and you are only slightly outnumbered. Good luck.

Chancellor von Hamburg.

Ansehelm von Kastilien

Ansehelm von Kastilien,

Small enemy armies continue to plague the area around Thorn, preventing reinforcements from reaching their destination. Also, you are currently surrounded by numerous small Polish forces, preventing your return without a fight. Clean up the area as best you can. There are no major threats, and sufficient reinforcements have arrived, that your crusade should just about be ready to leave.

Chancellor von Hamburg

TevashSzat
07-24-2007, 01:53
Well im hoping to add some more excitement to the Diet. I am going to side with Hans and call for a council to determine who is Kaiser. If things dont occur as I would hope for, then who knows I always held an interest in holding Caen :wink:

gibsonsg91921
07-24-2007, 03:48
haha the way i see it, each house has its own distinctive qualities.

Bavaria - Soap Opera
Franconia - Rabble-Rousers
Swabia - Snobby Royalty
Austria - Dreaded Fearmongerers

Warluster
07-24-2007, 06:44
Right, I'm gonna wait for a few more avatars to come through.

Just quickly, but I need to use Dieter for a story, to seal off the end part of my story, then he's all yours to control Ituralde.

econ21
07-24-2007, 06:47
Just a word of congratulations to FLYdude on getting this PBM moving again - this level of pace, organisation and communication we are seeing from the Chancellor provides what we need to spur the recent role-playing and excitement. :2thumbsup:

OverKnight
07-24-2007, 06:54
I certainly second that.

On another note, the history, except for a few yet to be written battle reports, is updated. If I'm missing anything, let me know.

Ituralde
07-24-2007, 12:45
I haven't taken a look at the save yet, but I won't be able to fight the battle until tomorrow or some time tonight. I believe it would be a sally? If so, should the other battle be finished, before I get a chance to fight, you can have me besieged for one more turn.

Cheers!

Ituralde

Stig
07-24-2007, 12:53
Picking up the save now

Stig
07-24-2007, 13:32
Fought and won:
https://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d121/the_Stig_/Forumite%20Battle%20Result/0032.jpg

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1258-2.rar

econ21
07-24-2007, 13:33
Ituralde and Ignoramus: if the Kaiser wishes it, I will use my moderator powers to keep order in the Diet. It would kill the role-playing if Hummel is able to repeatedly walk into the Diet after being banned by the Kaiser. (And no number of dread knights on your avatar's retinue are a match for a moderator who can delete posts. :inquisitive: )

First part of my battle report is up. People might consider writing multi-part reports if there are lots of screenshots. It helps turn the page more quickly. Otherwise we will get massive pages full of screenies that take forever to load (as happened with WotS).

Ignoramus
07-24-2007, 13:39
Is there no effective way to rebel? If there isn't then this PBM's going to get bad RP with happy cooperative electors when the succession's gone haywire.

Stig
07-24-2007, 13:40
(And no number of dread knights on your avatar's retinue are a match for a moderator who can delete posts. :inquisitive: )
Ansehelm the Merciless' (son of Gunther the Honourable ~D ) new Veteran Warrior will halt them, while his Master Archer and Guard Dog attack them.

:charge:

TinCow
07-24-2007, 13:41
How does splitting the screenshots between multiple posts make loading faster?

AussieGiant
07-24-2007, 13:43
You could rebel Igno but it would have to be IC and outside of the game mechanics. You could do a series of Stories and co-op's with other players on the rebellion and make it clock and dagger stuff behind closed doors.

You can't pursue the mass army version as there is no way to replicate that in the game.

For example you can't really kill characters, so PK and I have had to do our thing in the stories thread to get it done. I migfht add that it has generated a pertty impressive response amongst most of the people I've PM'd.

I'm starting to worry I've gone over the top.

Stig
07-24-2007, 13:44
Is there no effective way to rebel? If there isn't then this PBM's going to get bad RP with happy cooperative electors when the succession's gone haywire.
You might be able to cheat people into joining the rebel faction, but nothing more.
And since it's not possible I advise against a civil war, the game mechanics don't allow it.

When this PM is over and a new one is started we could cheat and mod so that there is a Saxon faction in America, this faction will also be played by us (using HotSeat). Once a civil war is started we can cheat them to take over settlements.
But that can't be done now anymore.

Stig
07-24-2007, 13:45
How does splitting the screenshots between multiple posts make loading faster?
Less on 1 page?

OverKnight
07-24-2007, 13:47
If you want to foment an effective rebellion, you have to network and get an effective coalition of Electors going so you can pass a few CAs.

You just can't wish it into being.

We rebelled pretty effectively when we impeached Ulrich.

As for the role-playing, I think most people are satisfied with it.

Ituralde
07-24-2007, 13:53
@econ21:

I was not going to react to Ignoramus post, because I felt it pointless. There wasn't any good way in which I could play it out. If he refuses to accept my actions, there's little I can do.
But it's nice to know I have that option, somehow the power to regulate the Diet should come with control of the guards or something like that! :2thumbsup:

@Ignoramus:

I believe there are ways to rebel inside the rules set in this PBM, although they have dire consequences. But that's what happens when you rebel. Considering the RP aspect, I believe there is more than enough free room to roleplay dissent and open animosity within the rules we have agreed in the Charter.

We all have to accept certain facts IC that the game throws at us OOC and so far I have only seen them enrich the roleplay rather than make it worse. I appreciate anyone who opposes Siegfried, but it has to be within the boundaries set by the rules of this PBM. Otherwise it would just be pointless for every party involved.

I for example feel that the Emperors powers have been quite crippled, not that he was overly powerful to begin with, but I'll have to live with it and adjust my roleplay accordingly.

Ignoramus
07-24-2007, 13:56
I've decided that Wolfgang's going to roam lands away from the Reich. It will represent that he's a hunted man inside the Reich and doesn't feel safe there.

I will try and pass a CA that will enable "rebels" like me to do a few extra things.

TinCow
07-24-2007, 13:58
Ignoramus:

No, there's nothing in the rules that will help you rebel, so you'll have to work at it through the rules. It's not that hard and it is pretty RP accurate IMO. In reality, few people are going to rebel unless they think they have a chance of pulling it off and coming out alive. Wolfgang's one-man-stand is nothing more than suicide as it stands, so it's a bit unrealistic. If you want to oppose Siegfried as Kaiser, the best thing to do is to work through back channels to create a rebellion against him. If you can get a 2/3 majority, you can do anything you want in the game. Even with a 50% vote you can create a few short-term edicts that can cause massive problems. If you can't get that much, all you need to do is find some people with power to go along with your revolt and cause problems. Dukes can deny the use of their armies to the Chancellor and otherwise make life difficult for them. Army commanders can refuse to fight battles. Get creative and you'll find there are lots of ways to foment unrest without starting a multiplayer battle.

The first thing you need to do is get some allies, which means not alienating every single last person in the Diet. Even if Wolfgang hates Siegfried, surely he can bite the bullet and live with him for a short while if that makes overthrowing him more of a possibility. Take a look at what FH is doing. He is working the system perfectly.


Less on 1 page?

Doesn't help those of us who are set to view 40 posts per page. Of course, those of us who do that are responsible for our own slow loading times. :laugh4:

Privateerkev
07-24-2007, 14:46
I've decided that Wolfgang's going to roam lands away from the Reich. It will represent that he's a hunted man inside the Reich and doesn't feel safe there.

I will try and pass a CA that will enable "rebels" like me to do a few extra things.

Since the game doesn't have a rebel/civil war mechanic that we can activate on demand, you'll have to RP it. Its the same with character duels. AG and I have been trying to work this out for a couple of days. Jan, an Elector, has been able to take on Arnold, a Duke and at least come out as a draw. This is only because of role playing. Here's a few of Kevin's role playing hints to getting what you want in game.

1.) RP your traits consistently. It might seem like it makes your character simplistic but consistently RP'ing your traits gives your character credibility. Others who have the same traits will start to trust you. Even those who have different traits will grudgingly admit that your a "true believer". Predictability helps human interaction. If your going to change your traits, either make it subtle or really obvious in a story post. Flipping back and forth will just convince players that your character is psychotic. :laugh4:

2.) Others have an interest in keeping you alive. As part of a feudal/electoral system, you play a part in the big machine. And those in power have an interest in keeping you alive so you can fullfill their agenda. Jan has a father who is chancellor, a Duke, and a King of Outremer who all have an interest in seeing Jan survive and help them pass their edicts.

3.) The enemy of my enemy. Your enemies have enemies. Work with them. I am surprised at the number of IC pm's Jan has gotten from those who don't like Duke Arnold. It is really amusing. :beam:

4.) Put your character in jeapordy. Players respect players who will put their character in danger in order to support their beliefs. No one likes someone who just shouts things from behind a castle.

5.) Allow the other player a way to save face with his character. A character that is totally beaten will become useless to the player because no one will take that character seriously. If you offer them a way to "save face", then you'd be surprised at what they would agree to. This is exactly what AG and I have been working on. We both want our characters to stick to their belief systems and not give ground. But, as players we do not want to ruin the other's character. So we've had to create this massive scenario where both characters can face great odds, survive, and still claim that they have the courage of their convictions.

Hope this helps and people can feel free to add.

OverKnight
07-24-2007, 14:51
Good points. . .So when are we getting the finale for the Dread and Chivalry story line? It's a bit of a cliffhanger.

Privateerkev
07-24-2007, 14:57
Good points. . .So when are we getting the finale for the Dread and Chivalry story line? It's a bit of a cliffhanger.

Well, I finished the story last night. AG just signed off on it this morning. We both agreed that were going to let GH wake up and work his magic on it. He'll take my block of marble and make a Michelangalo out of it. My first post in the story thread is only readable because he worked on it. The story is out of my head but he can make it flow to a point where you'll actually enjoy reading it.

Stig
07-24-2007, 15:01
Hey, there's nothing wrong with Dread, remember that Jan has a Dread Steward now ~D ... and later on Dread Duke.


And a question:
Do I have to propose a new Edict to have the Crusade continue. Actually it can start next turn, but that is for the next chancellor to make the move. Can we just leave it like this, or does it have to be proposed again (having the propose it again seems wierd to me, as it hasn't taken place yet and it was an edict).
So what are the rules on this? (even the army is ready afaik)


Actually I think it's better to focus at Vilnius and continue from there to Bulgar.

AussieGiant
07-24-2007, 15:12
I tell you what...Arnold has been taken to the cleaners on this from all corners.

I'm a bit shocked actually but clearly the writing has elicited some good reactions.

Privateerkev
07-24-2007, 15:14
I tell you what...Arnold has been taken to the cleaners on this from all corners.

I'm a bit shocked actually but clearly the writing has elicited some good reactions.

Well, if you RP an evil !@#hole, you can't be surprised if others wait for you to fall. :laugh4:

TinCow
07-24-2007, 15:14
And a question:
Do I have to propose a new Edict to have the Crusade continue. Actually it can start next turn, but that is for the next chancellor to make the move. Can we just leave it like this, or does it have to be proposed again (having the propose it again seems wierd to me, as it hasn't taken place yet and it was an edict).
So what are the rules on this? (even the army is ready afaik)

The edict that was passed did not have any wording at all that allows it to survive for multiple Diet sessions, so it will expire. In order to make sure that the Crusade goes through, you need to pass legislation that will make the Crusade valid again. Without legislation, even a Chancellor who wants to do the Crusade will not be able to due to CA 10.2.

TinCow
07-24-2007, 15:16
I tell you what...Arnold has been taken to the cleaners on this from all corners.

I'm a bit shocked actually but clearly the writing has elicited some good reactions.

Lay low, lick your wounds, plot revenge. Remember, evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

AussieGiant
07-24-2007, 15:16
Well, if you RP an evil !@#hole, you can't be surprised if others wait for you to fall. :laugh4:

I'm not evil, I'm just misunderstood :dizzy2:

And unfortunately TC is correct Stig.

You're going to have to do some more lobbying to get that little venture up and running again.

I'm sure you can persuade enough people to support the edict :laugh4:

Stig
07-24-2007, 15:18
The edict that was passed did not have any wording at all that allows it to survive for multiple Diet sessions, so it will expire. In order to make sure that the Crusade goes through, you need to pass legislation that will make the Crusade valid again. Without legislation, even a Chancellor who wants to do the Crusade will not be able to due to CA 10.2.
Righto I'll just come with another Edict. It would be stupid to abondon this idea now, seeing all is ready. We could use the army to attack Krakow as people said, but Vilnius is far more important.

TinCow
07-24-2007, 15:19
I think it's for the best anyway, as the argument over the Moscow expedition is fun. I have a feeling you'll be able to get it passed, but it's worth exploring again. Make sure you tack on a line about the Edict not expiring until its terms are fulfilled, that way you don't have to do this again if it's not done by 1280.

Privateerkev
07-24-2007, 15:26
I'm not evil, I'm just misunderstood :dizzy2:

Yeah, and so was Hitler... :laugh4:

And you know I mean Arnold and not you. What did you expect to happen? You RP a terrifying mean genocidal killer. At the beginning of this, I was afraid of the political damage my character was going to suffer. But, I totally underestimated just how many characters hate your character. You kind of made your own bed on that one. :laugh4:

I never PM'd a single character. I never lobbied in my Ducal house or in the Diet. People came to Jan out of their own desire to see the Duke fall. I had nothing to do with that. In fact, if I knew you were on such shaky political ground, I would have gone easier. I can try to help out a little IC but if I do it too much it will look pretty wierd. "Gee, isn't the genocidal maniac who had my best friend killed really a swell guy!" :laugh4:

Stig
07-24-2007, 15:27
Aye, IC a crusade will be fun even if it's not the best idea.


And I've been thinking, we could do an OOC edict allowing Wolfgang to rebel.
He takes an army and goes adventuring, he might take some city and lock himself away there. The Chancellor will have nothing to say about that settlement, as it will be his kingdom ... he ofcourse has nothing to say in any part of the Reich.

AussieGiant
07-24-2007, 15:29
Yeah, and so was Hitler... :laugh4:

And you know I mean Arnold and not you. What did you expect to happen? You RP a terrifying mean genocidal killer. At the beginning of this, I was afraid of the political damage my character was going to suffer. But, I totally underestimated just how many characters hate your character. You kind of made your own bed on that one. :laugh4:

I never PM'd a single character. I never lobbied in my Ducal house or in the Diet. People came to Jan out of their own desire to see the Duke fall. I had nothing to do with that. In fact, if I knew you were on such shaky political ground, I would have gone easier. I can try to help out a little IC but if I do it too much it will look pretty wierd. "Gee, isn't the genocidal maniac who had my best friend killed really a swell guy!" :laugh4:

No, no. Lets just leave it as it is.

I'm swaying between being ostracised to the point where I get worse or making some attempt at rebalancing.

I mean all I did was put a few heads on some poles...it's not as if I eat babies :beam:

Northnovas
07-24-2007, 15:30
haha the way i see it, each house has its own distinctive qualities.

Bavaria - Soap Opera
Franconia - Rabble-Rousers
Swabia - Snobby Royalty
Austria - Dreaded Fearmongerers

Not all Austrians. There is a ying and yang thing going on. For each of Arnold's dread points Karl get chilvary.:2thumbsup:

AussieGiant
07-24-2007, 15:31
Your all a bunch of big girls blouses LOL!!

Privateerkev
07-24-2007, 15:40
I mean all I did was put a few heads on some poles...it's not as if I eat babies :beam:

That would make for some interesting RP'ing. I recommend you do that in the middle of a Diet meeting.

"My Kaiser, "munch munch" if I may adress the Diet "munch munch munch"...

:laugh4:

TinCow
07-24-2007, 15:43
Yeah, and so was Hitler... :laugh4:

And you know I mean Arnold and not you. What did you expect to happen? You RP a terrifying mean genocidal killer. At the beginning of this, I was afraid of the political damage my character was going to suffer. But, I totally underestimated just how many characters hate your character. You kind of made your own bed on that one. :laugh4:

I never PM'd a single character. I never lobbied in my Ducal house or in the Diet. People came to Jan out of their own desire to see the Duke fall. I had nothing to do with that. In fact, if I knew you were on such shaky political ground, I would have gone easier. I can try to help out a little IC but if I do it too much it will look pretty wierd. "Gee, isn't the genocidal maniac who had my best friend killed really a swell guy!" :laugh4:

Genocidal? Arnold is far from the first guy to butcher his prisoners. Despite the misinformation being spread IC, it's actually been pretty common, even with some of the Holy Rollers. Mandorf, the original religious nut, was not exactly known for his leniency against heretics. The anti-Arnold reaction to me seems a bit over-the-top and certainly not in keeping with what he has really done, but all's fair in RP.

TevashSzat
07-24-2007, 15:49
Personally, I would rebel with Ignoramus just for a French territory. Ive been trying to get another French castle for a while now I could use this for my benefit.

Swabia might be able to not accept Siegfried's throne cause IC, Hans Wolfgang and me, Friederich are all against his reign and then kinda do what Ulrich did and just go and take a province or two in France without any edicts supporting it

Privateerkev
07-24-2007, 15:54
Genocidal? Arnold is far from the first guy to butcher his prisoners. Despite the misinformation being spread IC, it's actually been pretty common, even with some of the Holy Rollers. Mandorf, the original religious nut, was not exactly known for his leniency against heretics. The anti-Arnold reaction to me seems a bit over-the-top and certainly not in keeping with what he has really done, but all's fair in RP.

Are you claiming that Arnold is not genocidal? I never claimed he was the only character that killed prisoners but he certainly has made himself stand out the most. And I had my own IC reasons for going after him and making a big deal out of it. It fit with my traits and it helped fuel my agenda so I latched onto it IC. I'm not against it OOC. I've told him a couple times that he is playing a really cool character. Its just that my character hates his. In fact, I'm learning that "anti-murder" sentiment is running pretty high IC. Now, if that sentiment will be turned into votes is another question entirely but I need to wait until the next Diet session to test that out. Political expediency might drain moral support from an anti-execution bill I am considering.

TinCow
07-24-2007, 16:00
Nope, definitely not genocidal. Lopping off the heads of your enemies is far from systematic eradication of an entire people. At some periods in history, it was just common sense.:dizzy2:

Of course, the Diet is exactly the place for exaggerating your opponents flaws and exploiting their weaknesses. Just because it isn't accurate doesn't mean it's not a good strategy. As you can see, your actions are reaping rewards, so who cares if they're true or not?!

Evil is a matter of perspective. :laugh4:

Stig
07-24-2007, 16:06
Are you claiming that Arnold is not genocidal? I never claimed he was the only character that killed prisoners but he certainly has made himself stand out the most.
Ansehelm killed about 1500 prisoners the last couple of years. He's getting close to Arnold ~D

Watch out, I'm overtaking!!!

Privateerkev
07-24-2007, 16:13
Nope, definitely not genocidal. Lopping off the heads of your enemies is far from systematic eradication of an entire people. At some periods in history, it was just common sense.:dizzy2:

Of course, the Diet is exactly the place for exaggerating your opponents flaws and exploiting their weaknesses. Just because it isn't accurate doesn't mean it's not a good strategy. As you can see, your actions are reaping rewards, so who cares if they're true or not?!

Evil is a matter of perspective. :laugh4:

While Jan has been exaggerating the acts IC, OOC I academically believe that Arnold is committing genocide. He has stated his desires to eliminate the Hungarian people and has already killed 4000. All because it was considered "common sense", doesn't mean that it is not genocide. And I think it would be good if someone brought up that some killings are highlighted while others are ignored. It is no coincidence that Jan has not brought up what Ansehelm or Lothar have done... ;)

I am conceptualizing a "battle for the soul of the Reich" where legislation banning executions, sacking, and exterminations will be the centerpiece. Such legislation will hopefully spur IC debates on morals, values, the meaning of civilization, and the meaning of being Christian. Either way it should be fun! :beam:

Stuperman
07-24-2007, 16:14
My god the political climate moves fast here, I think that I'll go into the Diet and Stir the pot a bit Muhahahah!

I actually like Arnold, He's done what's right for his House considering hungries almost non-stop assualts he can't really justify letting all those soldiers go when they will be back on his door step next turn.

Stig
07-24-2007, 16:17
Aye, same reason why Ansehelm supports Arnold. He's doing the same with Poles and Russians.

Stuperman
07-24-2007, 16:17
I am conceptualizing a "battle for the soul of the Reich" where legislation banning executions, sacking, and exterminations will be the centerpiece. Such legislation will hopefully spur IC debates on morals, values, the meaning of civilization, and the meaning of being Christian. Either way it should be fun! :beam:

That goes directly against what I have planned for the Sicilians...

Privateerkev
07-24-2007, 16:18
My god the political climate moves fast here, I think that I'll go into the Diet and Stir the pot a bit Muhahahah!

I actually like Arnold, He's done what's right for his House considering hungries almost non-stop assualts he can't really justify letting all those soldiers go when they will be back on his door step next turn.

Oh, there's great "realpolitik" reasons for doing what Arnold has done. But, those of us playing characters with high chivalry and high piety can stand with our mouths open and gasp in horror. The man did bring heads into the Diet as well as place 4000 heads on pikes lining a road. I was surprised that more people weren't vocal until I learned that there are things going on "behind-the-scenes".

*edit*

Stuperman's and Stig's posts lend weight to my belief that such legislation would ultimately fail right now. But, it would be fun to at least have the debate. Why should people be able to murder with no one saying anything? If you want to have your character murder, thats fine with me but you have to accept that other characters may/will be horrified at your actions.

econ21
07-24-2007, 18:37
Ignoramus: on rebellion, there are various ways we could accommodate it within the PBM.

The easiest is to collude OOC with the player controlling the Chancellor so that he moves the rebellious forces. We've done this before in this PBM - once when I think OK allowed Hummel senior to move against orders, but most notably under Chancellor Maximillan's watch when Max was a Papist but Tincow set-up attacks on the Papacy. For this, you essentially have to persuade the Chancellor player that what you propose is plausible and makes sense in character. The problem with Hummel the junior at the moment is that, as has been said, his rebellion does not seem to have wider support.

Another way is what we did in WotS when we informally agreed to start a Civil War and basically made up game mechanics as we went along.

Finally, as OK has said, you could propose OOC Charter amendments to formalise game mechanics for a rebellion.

All these are possibilities, but I am not sure they are for now. I think you would need something like a House or its equivalent to rebel for it to cause major issues. Anything lesser would probably just be easily suppressed or otherwise resolved.


I for example feel that the Emperors powers have been quite crippled, not that he was overly powerful to begin with, but I'll have to live with it and adjust my roleplay accordingly.

I am open to ideas for how to beef up the role of the Emperor. The de facto creation of a Kaiser's Army might help (I want a Prinz's one :jumping:). Some of his existing powers are subtle, but potentially powerful - ability to popose unlimited edicts/CAs per session, allocating provinces to Houses, calling an Emergency Diet, adjudicating rules disputes etc. With influence = authority, he can also get some legislative clout. A lot of it comes from role-playing though, which is why I offered to evict rebels from the Diet to maintain that atmosphere of deference and respect.

TinCow
07-24-2007, 18:48
Don't underestimate the power of being banned from the Diet either. Lothar only let himself get expelled because he knew Henry was old and would die soon, thus allowing him to return without apologizing. However, he lived a bit longer than I was expecting and I have to say that not being able to speak got intensely aggravating. The risk of another Diet expulsion with no chance of another Kaiser death to let him back in was a major reason that Lothar did not push the issue of Siegfried's coronation any more than he did.

I think the Kaiser's power is only limited if you choose not to exploit it. You have the ability to expel anyone from the Diet that you wish. If you don't like someone, make up a reason and kick him out. It doesn't have to be valid and it will have a huge effect. You can also ignore Jobst's will and marry Lyse off to whomever you want, another major power. You can refuse to give any territories to houses that oppose you, another massive power. Finally, you have the power to adjudicate "rules disputes." If you interpret this liberally and find some weak legislation, you can pretty much re-write the law to say whatever you want. If anyone complains about your ability to do so, just say that whether you have the ability to rule on the law is itself a "rules dispute" which thus falls under your authority.

Of course, all of these actions will likely make people dislike you, but how can you expect to wield supreme power without making enemies? Either play a passive Emperor and have everyone like you, or start flexing your muscles and get prepared for some opposition. The choice is yours to make.

GeneralHankerchief
07-24-2007, 20:23
Although don't flex those Imperial muscles too much.

Stig
07-24-2007, 20:24
But being emperor you can easely get rid of opposition. And in this game you can't really.
Would Arnold be emperor he would simply have Wolfgang trailed and killed ~D , the game does not allow this (I think).

But as TinCow said, you do have powers, ignoring people for example. Sure the chancellor makes the moves, but you are emperor, he has to keep you a friend, and will have to follow your orders.

Next to that if people oppose you, ban them from the Diet. Would I make an Edict saying that Siegfried will not be the real Kaiser, ban me. TinCow seconds it? Ban him. Easy.

Tho we should allow those people to rebel in a way of not having to follow orders, they can make their own moves (aslong as they send them in in time)

econ21
07-24-2007, 20:28
Part II of my battle report is now up.

Stig
07-24-2007, 20:32
I still have to do 2, big gah :furious3:
This goes too fast for me ~D

TinCow
07-24-2007, 21:02
If they're just minor battles, you really dont need to do anything more than post the end results. I have made my last few battle reports extensive because they were actually just a way I could tell the next part of my 'Lothar Story'. Plus, you've been fighting a lot of battles lately. If you don't think the battles are important historical events and have no significance for your character, save yourself some pain and skip the details.

Cecil XIX
07-24-2007, 21:05
This discussion about rebellion makes we wonder how different things would be if we could frame generals for treason as in MTW. Alas, what could have been.

Stig
07-24-2007, 21:09
Well I still need to do atleast one, also to continue Ansehelms story

econ21
07-24-2007, 22:43
Third and final part of my battle report up. One of the most intense TW battles I've fought. :sweatdrop:

GeneralHankerchief
07-24-2007, 22:44
Ah good, now Conrad can finally yell at Elberhard. :yes:

Privateerkev
07-24-2007, 22:49
Ah good, now Conrad can finally yell at Elberhard. :yes:

For what? Can we see? I've been craving some good Outremer drama! :laugh4:

flyd
07-25-2007, 00:55
That's it. 1260 has been entered, and the save is up:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1260.zip

The transition was interesting enough...

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 01:11
*looks at the save*

Oh man, this is gonna be a fun one! Ok, how does this work? Is the game frozen until the end of the Diet session?

Northnovas
07-25-2007, 01:18
*looks at the save*

Oh man, this is gonna be a fun one! Ok, how does this work? Is the game frozen until the end of the Diet session?

Yes, the Diet will be declared open by the Kaiser and time will be given for edicts and charter amendments some discussion. Election for the edicts proposed and for Chancellor if required. Then when all said and done move on to the save and continue with new army orders and building queues.

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 01:26
Thanks, I joined right after the last one so this is my first "transition" and there is much IC I want to do. :beam:

GeneralHankerchief
07-25-2007, 01:42
Even if we do take back Jerusalem, Durazzo will still be the capital, which is not the best of situations for us. Perhaps we could persuade the Byzantines to attack it for us?

OverKnight
07-25-2007, 01:47
I would say trade Jerusalem, once we have it back, for Durazzo, but they won't trade their capital will they?

GeneralHankerchief
07-25-2007, 01:52
No.

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 02:02
What funny is this probably wouldn't have happened except for the fact that the Papacy has their army sitting in a little boat in a little lake next to Jerusalem. The Egyptians have a boat full of men there two. Such a mighty little boat navy... Reminds me of the War of 1812... :laugh4:

econ21
07-25-2007, 02:11
If Ituralde has not already done so, I will open the Diet tomorrow morning (UK time). I'd rather not have the deadlines expire at such an ungodly hour as the likelihood of my making mistakes when drawing up the polls etc would be high.

GeneralHankerchief
07-25-2007, 02:12
All right, but Outremer reserves the right to call their Crusade Edict 11.1. :yes:

StoneCold
07-25-2007, 02:20
Err... what is the rationale for asking Durazzo back again? Tot we gave it to the Pope to secure a border?

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 02:22
I think the thought is to make Jerusalem the Papacy capital again so the new popes keep springing up there. Also it makes sense in game.

GeneralHankerchief
07-25-2007, 02:34
Problem is, we can't negotiate our way to the Papacy giving up Durazzo since it's already their capital and they never let you do anything with an AI capital. The only way that Durazzo can be removed is by force. We obviously don't want to do it (at least, most of us, I hope) so our best bet is asking the Byzantines to do it for us.

FactionHeir
07-25-2007, 06:46
Well, first you need to make the Byz go to war with the pope and normally they dont care about Durazzo until they own Corinth and Thessalonica.

I think the rebellion against Siegfried is picking up momentum. THis diet session will be quite fun. Prepare for an extended diet though to have second voting as a result of the first round.

I also think the Diet Speaker ought to open the session this time.

I hopefully should have i-net access once or twice a day for the next week again. Cant be sure though. Try not to advance things too much hehe.

P.S. I miss smilies. And punctuation. Those Japanese keyboards are weird.

AussieGiant
07-25-2007, 09:50
God almighty this game is getting huge!!

It's taken me 90 minutes to catch up with everything since yesterday afteroon GMT+1!!

Save is frozen. Let the games begin :laugh4:

I'm taking a look at the save tonight.

StoneCold
07-25-2007, 10:12
Hmm... well, isn't the sicilians at war with the pope over Durazzo, so there is a chance that they might capture it and the Pope will shift back to Jerusalem?

OverKnight
07-25-2007, 10:22
Judging by the Sicilians repeated sieges of Cagliari, they couldn't succesfully assault a wet cardboard box.

AussieGiant
07-25-2007, 10:32
I think it's time to get the Bavarian teeth out after some long service leave and unite the Italian peninsula.

econ21
07-25-2007, 11:22
Sorry for the delay in opening the Diet - I should have just done it last night.

By the normal timetable, the voting will run from Saturday 11am to Sunday 11am. This has traditionally been the deadest period for Diet participation. Is anyone going to be unable to vote in that period? If it is one or two, they can use postal (PM to me) votes. If it is more than that, we should change the timetable - e.g. have a two day poll spanning Sunday and Monday.

AussieGiant
07-25-2007, 11:28
I'm available on the weekend.

I'll be travelling to Korea from 11:00am Thursday to noon Friday GMT+1.

I can jump on in the evening on Friday to hit the diet deliberations and voting will be no problem Sunday and Monday.

TinCow
07-25-2007, 12:20
econ21, if the Kaiser succession debate really takes off, it might be wise to extend the Diet by a day or two. No need for it now, IMO, but flexibility could help if the discussions are intense, given the seriousness of the issue.

Ignoramus
07-25-2007, 13:13
Just a note to tell you that I'll be out all day tomorrow, so I'll probably miss valuable debates.

Stuperman
07-25-2007, 15:15
AG, you must be psychic, and I'd say that the siegfired rebellion is taking off a bit.

My sons have also left me in a VERY tight position politically, but I think I've got it cracked.

I also agree that debate and voting might need to be/should be extended, this looks like quite a doozie (sp? even a word?) of a diet session

Given that this is probably Gerhards last Diet session, I really hope that Bavaria gets another avatar or 2, as I'd like to stay in Bavaria. Perhaps another 'adoption'?

OverKnight
07-25-2007, 15:20
Yup, Christmas is going to be very awkward at the Steffen homestead.

Edit: I might propose a OOC CA calling for the culling of some of our less desirable unclaimed avatars to promote new kids and adoptions.

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 15:29
I just ensured that x-mas will be awkward in the Franconian hall as well. :laugh4:

As for old avatars, there are not too many left. The old Swabian one just died. Jan has a brother in law thats 50 and sitting in Rome with Duke Steffan. The rest are pretty young. Jan's older brother is in Thorn and in his 30's. Jan's other brother in law is in Outremer and is in his young 20's. The younger Hummel brother is also in Outremer and in his teens. There is one more Kastillian and I think he is in his 30's. I think that is it for unclaimed avatars.

OverKnight
07-25-2007, 15:32
I know, but every little bit helps. The Houses are a bit lopsided and none of the younger avatars are getting married. If we got some duds left, may as well get them out of the way and then see what happens.

TinCow
07-25-2007, 15:33
If the lopsidedness continues, I think we'll just have to bite the bullet and abduct some more Franconians to serve Austria. It's not ideal, but far better than having a House die out completely.

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 15:34
Didn't AG say something earlier about letting Austria die out if its going to die out?

TinCow
07-25-2007, 15:38
Yeah, but I really don't like that idea. The way things are going, Bavaria will have avatar problems as well. Are we going to let all the Houses die until everyone is Franconian? Besides, four Houses are good for balance. With three, an alliance with two can always dominate the third. With four, it usually turns out to be two on two in the event of a contentous issue.

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 15:53
Well, I'm trying to spark a chivalry/dread divide IC so maybe that will help. It seems to transcend house lines. I don't want any of the houses to die out either but what do we do? Also, it seems that Swabia has more kids that will come of age soon and I don't hear talk of taking their avatars away. Though they do seem adept at losing their avatars. :laugh4:

Northnovas
07-25-2007, 15:54
Didn't AG say something earlier about letting Austria die out if its going to die out?

Way back in a saved game I went a couple turns and Zirn had a son. I therefore had hope when a new save came up but I don't think it's going to happen. Though Arnold is younger and should get hooked up soon if she can look past his dread.:shame:

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 15:58
With all the talk Lothar and Arnold do about "breeding" they sure don't breed much. Also, Franconia has two avatars at age 60 and one at age 57 so that should help balance things out when they die.

Stig
07-25-2007, 15:59
Plus that, none of the Kastillien sons is married

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 16:01
Yeah, out of the four Hamburg sons/son-in-laws, two are married(because their son in laws) and only one has a kid.

TinCow
07-25-2007, 16:06
We need an Imperial Dating Service.

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 16:09
We need an Imperial Dating Service.

Welcome to the Imperial Dating Service, pick:

1.) If you would like a sanctimonious holier-than-thou Crusader

2.) If you would like a genocidal killer

3.) If you would like a recluse that sits in the woods all day building watchtowers.

Stig
07-25-2007, 16:10
Young man, in possession of Dread Knight and Berserker, seeks lovely girl to marry with


Yeah, that works.

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 16:12
Young man, in possession of Dread Knight and Berserker, seeks lovely girl to marry with


Yeah, that works.

Young dread duke, responisble for thousands of executed prisoners, likes walks on the beach, gazing at the stars, and puppies.

gibsonsg91921
07-25-2007, 16:16
Mixed loyalties in the political world doesn't translate into cheating on you, babe! He's a tournament winner and a beast of a commander. If you love random bouts of rage and unconditional loyalty to friends no matter how stupid they are, choose Peter von Kastilien!

TinCow
07-25-2007, 16:19
Vote for Lothar! He'll get you laid!

gibsonsg91921
07-25-2007, 16:20
Idk, matthias has a history with the older women...

Stig
07-25-2007, 16:23
Ansehelm is fertile, vote for him and all the Reich will have children

TinCow
07-25-2007, 16:23
True, we Steffens seem to have a way with the princesses. First that Hungarian for Lothar, then Heinrich's daughter for Matthias, now Jobst's daughter for Lothar.

Stuperman
07-25-2007, 16:25
Idk, matthias has a history with the older women...

Max's wife? isn't she technically his grand-aunt or something?

OverKnight
07-25-2007, 16:29
*shudders*

Ummm. . .I looked at the available avatars listed in the first page of the Chancellor's report and then checked out the save.

First Harold von Dassel is dead of natural causes, so he should be taken off the list. This gives the Swabian only one free avatar, Jens Hummel, but reinforcements are on the way.

Second, Karl Zirn just had a son born, Johann age zero! The Austrians are hanging on by a thread. :dancing:

Third, since the Franconians, among others, will soon need two replacement avatars, the only spare avatar I can recommend icing is Jens von Kassel. He's 50 anyway, he's already produced a son, and it's confusing having a von Kassel and another Jens as a Franconian.

Edit: Otto married well too ya know. Matt and Elsebeth was just a mentor relationship with benefits.

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 16:47
Vote for Lothar! He'll get you laid!

You shoud make that your campaign slogan!

Also, has Lothar noticed yet that his bride-to-be is !@#$%ing someone else?

:laugh4:

Stuperman
07-25-2007, 17:14
Does anyone know someone associated with the design/programming of IE? If so can I have thier address so that I can go and kill them, I just lost a HUGE pm when IE decided that it wanted to crash on me :furious3: :furious3:

and I know that it might be premature, but have we decided on an end point? I mean are we sticking to 45 territories? or re-unite the Roman empire? Conquor the new world?

Cecil XIX
07-25-2007, 17:40
The way things are going, we've not need to worry about endings. I believe that the first WOTS game ended prematurely because it was so successful, there were no more challenges. We do not seem to have that problem :juggle2:

StoneCold
07-25-2007, 18:03
TC, so that hungarian princess that runs off with your avatar didn't translate into a wife for him?

AussieGiant
07-25-2007, 18:25
I tell you something. I'm going to make my marriage a matter of legislation.

The houses are important and I really don't think anyone realises the impact of losing a house in the whole scheme of things. At the moment Arnold is 26 and it's time for him to get married considering a whole blood line would be whipped out. This would really dilute the Austrian house if the rest of the characters were adoptions and OOC work arounds.

The balance will go out the window for one thing.

Arnold's coming back to the Diet so get ready :balloon2:

gibsonsg91921
07-25-2007, 18:26
ottos wife elsebeth

TinCow
07-25-2007, 18:31
TC, so that hungarian princess that runs off with your avatar didn't translate into a wife for him?

It was impossible to tell if she ran off with either Lothar or Markus, but McIwoo never commented on it, so I embraced (:laugh4:) the story. Regardless, neither Lothar nor Markus got married or got any traits as a result.

AussieGiant
07-25-2007, 19:10
I'm gagging for a wife.

I'd shove my todger in a blender if it would get me one :laugh4:

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 19:17
You probably shouldn't. I get the feeling that Duke Arnold would make his toddler his wife. :laugh4:

*edit*

I just realized that he might have meant something else with the word "todger"... o_O

AussieGiant
07-25-2007, 19:21
Feel free to take which ever meaning is best for your answer PK :2thumbsup:

AussieGiant
07-25-2007, 19:34
By the way Econ. Excellent battle report. You're really getting good at it.

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 19:35
Oh neither is very good... :inquisitive:

:laugh4:

*edit*

That was to AG's post about todgers, not the one about Econ...

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 19:38
I shall propose Edict 11.2 The four dukes and King Salier shall meet and discuss the events of King Salier's ascencion to the throne as well as any questions of any legitamacy. Afterwards a vote shall be cast on whether he will be allowed to retain his throne

Do not be hasty in rejecting this saying that only us Swabians have opposed Salier, but rather let a discussion procede and let the whole chain of events discussed clearly. Should we find it satisfactory, us Swabians shall recognize the legitamacy of the claim, but merely destroying any attempt for this and this issue may have to resolved with drastic actions.

I didn't know King Salier was Kaiser! :laugh4:

TevashSzat
07-25-2007, 19:48
Sorry. Must be getting the names wrong..

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 19:51
Yeah, thats why I just made a joke OOC and ignored it IC.

Stuperman
07-25-2007, 21:03
Hey PK, I love this bickering, just wanted to keep things cordual OOC.

Stig
07-25-2007, 21:13
Aye, Jan really seems to be making enemies, not the best thing to do ... but fun none the less

TinCow
07-25-2007, 21:16
It's a shame he's such a holy roller, he and Lothar could have been good friends.

Stig
07-25-2007, 21:17
I haven't seen his latest stats but his not that much of a pious "idiot" (~D ) isn't he. Only 5 the last time I saw it.

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 21:23
Oh its all good OOC guys. I was wondering though if we might want to give eachother an "out" IC so we all don't completely politically destroy our characters. Just a thought. Jan is finally starting to feel the heat from all the pressure others are placing on everyone he knows.

*edit*

And 5 is pretty pious. And did you ever consider that if someone is acting more pious than his traits dictate, then he might....be lying? *sneaky look*

AussieGiant
07-25-2007, 21:24
The little "Nut job" is above average but nothing crazy. :2thumbsup:

Arnold's going to rip him a new set of gonads soon.

I've got no idea how I can do this though.:wall:

I mean, my character given his traits just can't put up with all this...

but I really can't do anything:dizzy2: It's pretty funny right now.lol:beam:

econ21
07-25-2007, 21:49
I've updated the play list in the first post of the Chancellors reports thread. Please check your character's details are correct.

While we are at it, people should start posting build queues and Household Army orders.

EDIT: It would be a good idea to list the Household Army commanders. This is what I have so far:

Kaiser's Army - Kaiser Siegfried
Army of Outremer - King Salier
Swabian Household Army - Duke Scherer
Franconian Household Army - Steward Ansehelm
Austrian Household Army - Count Sigismund
Bavarian Household Army - Count Lothar

I've premised this on Duke Gunther and Duke Arnold being unable to fight battles now/soon. Ansehelm should find a replacement when/if he sets off to Moscow.

Also: who are the heirs of Swabia and Austria?

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 21:54
Alright AG, your not answering my PM so I'll put this on here. We agreed a couple days ago OOC that we could snipe in the Diet IC. Then you went and had Arnold basically twist Ansehelm's arm so hard that your giving Jan almost know room to breath. I agree we are RP'ing feudalism but you and I had a deal OOC. You've also helped stoke the IC frusterations against my character to the point where he is on the verge of being useless to me.

Basically, for my character to be viable, I need an out. And this isn't all my fault because you went out of your way to put Jan in hot water.

Please help,
Kevin

Stig
07-25-2007, 21:56
I can already tell you it's not entirely correct.
Ansehelm should have 4 influence (Steward, total of 15 points, more than 6 on 1 stat).
Same for Peter I believe, I think he has more influence than that.


PK, Arnold did not do anything to twist Ansehelms thoughts, they are on a same line concerning prisoners

TinCow
07-25-2007, 21:56
Surely your 'out' is simply to suck it up and apologize to your Steward. You have plenty of power if you can get Franconia behind you.

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 22:00
Alright AG's PM box is full so here is my reply to him:

No we are not ok. I started off just doing what we agreed OOC that we could do. And I know you can't control how others react IC but you had Arnold go out of his way to put the pressure on Jan. Now I need to take the credibility hit? This whole thing was fun at first but now it kind of sucks. In a flurry of posts, my character is on the cutting edge of being useless.

Also, I posted something OOC because I had not seen this PM yet.

econ21
07-25-2007, 22:03
Ansehelm should have 4 influence (Steward, total of 15 points, more than 6 on 1 stat).

I am not going to give a House a +2 for a Duke AND a +2 for a Steward (otherwise they will all start creating Stewards). It's an either/or. Stewards were originally for Houses which lacked bona fide Dukes. I am happy for Ansehelm to have the Steward title for RP reasons, but not the extra influence.


Same for Peter I believe, I think he has more influence than that.

Seems ok to me: +1 for Count?


PK, Arnold did not do anything to twist Ansehelms thoughts, they are on a same line concerning prisoners

Yes, PK do bear in mind we have to characters with the moniker "the Merciless".

Stig
07-25-2007, 22:06
I am not going to give a House a +2 for a Duke AND a +2 for a Steward (otherwise they will all start creating Stewards). It's an either/or. Stewards were originally for Houses which lacked bona fide Dukes. I am happy for Ansehelm to have the Steward title for RP reasons, but not the extra influence.
Change the rules in that case:

Appointed Influence (Max 3 points):
EITHER Duke or Steward: +2 OR Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1
King of Outremer or Crusader Count +1
Crusader counts get +1 for being a Crusader and +1 for being a count, isn't that too much either?


Seems ok to me: +1 for Count?
Doesn't he have some high stats? Hell I fought a battle with him in command and he had atleast 9 command.

AussieGiant
07-25-2007, 22:09
I've cleared my PM box PK.

You can reply there.

The pressure your feeling has a lot to do with people coming to their own conclusions. You've been in a tight barrel roll for the past few hours.

The pressure your feeling is not from me in most cases as far as I know. It's hard to tell.

I've written an "out" in the Diet, take it if you would like.

Yes I will be handing over the AHA to Sigismund.

Orders will follow for Arnold Ducal responsibilities.

Privateerkev
07-25-2007, 22:09
Yes, PK do bear in mind we have to characters with the moniker "the Merciless".

No econ this about AG telling me OOC that we can interact in a certain way and then making sure my character suffered adversly IC when I did it. This became a total goat !@#$ :furious3:

AussieGiant
07-25-2007, 22:15
PK,

I would suggest you PM me again. It seems pressure is coming from angles you were not expecting and I'm not able to see that.

We've spoken about this privately when I got a few Crackers from directions I was not expecting.

I can only say that I don't think you can ever be politically useless.

You have your voting influence and your in the game. No one can make you cast votes you don't want to.

If I've said anything in the Diet that you were not expecting then let me know.

Cheers
AG

Northnovas
07-25-2007, 22:17
*shudders*

Second, Karl Zirn just had a son born, Johann age zero! The Austrians are hanging on by a thread. :dancing:


About time!!!! Maybe the Pagan Magician in Karl retinue is on to something?

econ21
07-25-2007, 22:21
PK and AG - I suggest your avatars both cold shoulder each other in the Diet for a while. I think the mutual IC sniping has gone about as far as it can and is spilling over OOC.

In my observation, in politics, firm political opponents typically are rather indifferent to each other in legislative chambers - since their positions are so entrenched, there is little to be gained by expending emotional energy on each other. It is when dealing with people in their own party that things get really nasty.


Change the rules in that case

I'll rephrase it "Duke OR Steward (if no Duke in House) +2".


Doesn't he have some high stats? Hell I fought a battle with him in command and he had atleast 9 command.

Peter has 5 command - he could get up to 9 if he attacks at night.

AussieGiant
07-25-2007, 22:30
PK and AG - I suggest your avatars both cold shoulder each other in the Diet for a while. I think the mutual IC sniping has gone about as far as it can and is spilling over OOC.

In my observation, in politics, firm political opponents typically are rather indifferent to each other in legislative chambers - since their positions are so entrenched, there is little to be gained by expending emotional energy on each other. It is when dealing with people in their own party that things get really nasty.


I'm talking to PK now Econ.

GeneralHankerchief
07-25-2007, 22:35
In my observation, in politics, firm political opponents typically are rather indifferent to each other in legislative chambers - since their positions are so entrenched, there is little to be gained by expending emotional energy on each other. It is when dealing with people in their own party that things get really nasty.

This is more akin to the Backroom than actual politics. :laugh4:

AussieGiant
07-25-2007, 23:17
I couldn't agree more. 8 years of Political Science at school and university was more than enough for me to see just about everything. :dizzy2:

gibsonsg91921
07-25-2007, 23:49
hey econ - peter von kastilien is the FHA commander (or definitely once ansehelm gets crusading)

Stuperman
07-26-2007, 00:39
I've pm'd PK aswell, I didn't mean to ruin the game for the poor guy.:oops: :oops:

TinCow
07-26-2007, 01:07
Before anyone asks, I have already started work on the Library update, but I don't have a lot of time tonight. The actual uploading and updating probably won't happen until tomorrow. Apologies if this causes any problems.