KotR Imperial Diet V [Archive]

OverKnight

08-14-2007, 07:19

Matthias is alarmed by Jonas von Mahren's seizure and is relieved when the Franconian receives aid.

Count Jonas has my consolations, if it means anything to him. Most of us have lost a friend or family member in service to the Reich. It may serve as small comfort, but the sacrifices of the fallen have ensured our continued primacy in the world.

Matthias pauses, lost in thought.

Yet a live man serves the Reich and his House better than the fallen. Count Sigismund chose to assault Bran with only his retainers and a unit of spearmen. If he had used all the men at his command, I doubt we would be mourning him now.

Despite the minstrel's songs, battle is not a game or a tourney. It is deadly, and our fates lie in balance on a blade's edge. Bravery can save the day, but an excess of it can lose it. The Reich does not have so many commanders that we can throw them away on a whim. When we fight in a battle, we are not just burnishing our own individual reputations, we are advancing the interests of the Reich. If there is a conflict between the two, I hope my fellow Electors will remember their duty to the Empire and the Kaiser.

AussieGiant

08-14-2007, 08:01

Sitting listening to the Chancellor, Arnold begins to speak, stops and then sits with a clear look of anger and frustration on his face. As the Chancellor finishes Arnold can only nod in agreement in cold silence

Tamur

08-14-2007, 16:14

A messenger comes into the Diet, waits for permission to speak, then unrolls a scrolls and begins to read

Fritz von Kastilien sends his regards to the Lords of the Reich, and wishes everyone to petition their bishops to pray for the success of his brother Péter as he fights three Polish armies at the bridge south of Thorn. This is a momentous time for our conflict with the Poles, and the help of Heaven will be a strong arm for our armies.

Fritz also wishes to ask the Diet on two matters:

First, he wishes to know the feelings of other members of the Diet on the use of artillery on the battlefield.

Second, he would ask whether any city of the Reich has workmen skilled in the use of the new eastern weapons called fire arms. He wishes to correspond with anyone with a knowledge of these instruments.

And finally, he sends a note to the Chancellor:

"The people of Stettin, of which I am Count, suffer greatly because of the tax burden they are currently shouldering. I do not wish the people of my city and region to suffer, and therefore request that their tax burden be lightened. I hear rumours from my agents in the city of a revolt festering there, and I want no such happenings while I am away."

The messenger bows low, and leaves

gibsonsg91921

08-14-2007, 16:33

Brother, my County of Breslau is capable of producing bombard cannons. I say, any way we can kill Poles is acceptable by me!

Cecil XIX

08-14-2007, 18:25

Count Fritz, I believe my late brother was also interested in how the Reich was using this new technology. If I can find one of his reports... Ah, here it is.

It seems that there is no settlement in the Reich that can recuit gunpowder infantry. Such troops would require Barracks that are too sophisticated to be built in anything less than a Huge City, of which there are two in Swabia, three in Bavaria, three in Outremer, two in Austria, and of course Rome. The best noble for you to talk to is my own Duke Arnold, as Vienna is the closest geographically and can have the necessary facilities in the least amount of time.

As for artillery, Count Peter is right about Breslau. It is the only settlement in Franconia that can produce bombards. But if you should want the best, then I can say with pride that there is no settlement in the entire Reich that equals Bran, which can produce Grand Bombards.

AussieGiant

08-15-2007, 02:44

Arnold

I'm all for artillery in our armies.

Have you seen the damage they can do!? Truly impressive to say the least.

Tamur

08-15-2007, 05:39

Ah, I knew I could count on the noble souls of the Diet to help. These Bombards and gunpowder infantry sound as if they will be very useful from all I have heard. And, if I had the funds, I would certainly order a Grand Bombard to be delivered from Bran. However, I fear the expense would require me to sell not only the entire region of Stettin, but the castle there as well!

However, I remain troubled. If we are the greatest nation on earth, and I do not doubt that we are, why have we not explored gunpowder infantry? Is there some risk involved in its manufacture, or in the training of troops? Or is it too costly for us at present?

OverKnight

08-15-2007, 05:57

Matthias responds.

There are many factors as to why we do not have gunpowder units deployed.

First, as you guessed, is cost. The Reich has spent a great deal of time and money to construct buildings that recruit and support our current armies. To recruit gunpowder units of equilavent utility would require a reinvestment of many florins, not only in the troops themselves, but in the buildings used to train them.

Second, is availability, as Chancellor I try to execute the build queues given to me by Dukes and Counts. This is their right, but it often sacrifices unity of purpose. We do not end up with a uniform set of buildings throughout the Reich. Therefore we do not yet have the infrastructure to produce worthwhile gunpowder units on a large scale.

Third, is lack of necessity, our current troops are handling our enemies quite well. They are experienced and already recruited and deployed. To disband them simply because a newer, and more unreliable, technology has come along would be unwise.

Fourth, is applicability, gunpowder artillery is fearsome to behold when it shatters castle walls, but out in the field it is of less utility. As the Reich has assumed more of a defensive posture, there is less need for artillery in general, as the number of siege assaults has dwindled.

I am not opposed to using gunpowder, but it will take time before it becomes prevalent in the Empire.

AussieGiant

08-15-2007, 06:07

Arnold

Well summarised Chancellor.

You remind me of some one I read about in my fathers personal journal...I can't quite remember who though.

Tapping is cheek in thought, the Duke speak to his Priest for a moment about the journal in quesiton.

OverKnight

08-16-2007, 14:06

Matthias speaks.

My fellow Electors, very soon our forces in Outremer, lead by King Salier, will face the latest Mongol threat in battle. A Mongol Army has marched ahead of the Horde to Edessa. Using the city as an anvil, I have ordered the King and his army to serve as the hammer. I pray the Mongol army will be shattered between them. My own force stands nearby as a reserve for now.

May God grant us victory over the heathen!

Stuperman

08-16-2007, 14:28

Twice before there Mongols have harried us, and twice before they have died, Nothing can defend against the Imperial might of Rome, Although I wish King Salier luck, I highly doubt he'll need it.

I have read the most recent reports, but there is scant detail about the situation in europe, Has there been any news of note At home, or am I meerly being impatient?

GeneralHankerchief

08-16-2007, 15:58

Conrad Salier:

It doesn't matter whether we win or lose today. Eventually, we shall prevail. We shall always prevail so long as the Lord is on our side.

GeneralHankerchief

08-16-2007, 19:05

*A Bavarian lawyer, ashen-faced, stands up.*

M-my Lords.

I have just received notice that King Salier-

*He gulps and starts again.*

That King Salier and his entire army have perished against the Horse Lords. So far the word from Outremer is not much, but it appears that the King was struck down h-halfway through the fighting, thereby causing a chain rout, leaving the rest of his force to be picked off by the opposition.

We are currently trying to get a better grasp of what occurred and should have a full report out by tomorrow.

*He sits down, visibly shaken.*

Tamur

08-16-2007, 19:24

*Fritz von Kastilien attempts to rise to his feet, but halfway up he falls back to his bench. He makes the sign of the cross, then covers his face with his hand.*

Kagemusha

08-16-2007, 19:30

Jonas Von Mahren

"End comes to us all,its just matter of when and where. May King Salier rest in peace."

Jonas sits slowly back on his place and coughs loudly for a while. Only after one of his servants gives him something to drink the cough settles down.

Stig

08-16-2007, 21:46

A Teutonic Knight enters the Diet

Meine Herren, Duke Ansehelm sends me, in Russia there are rumours about the fact that the Outremer is about to fall, that King Salier is death, and that the Mongols are in Constantinople by now.
Duke Ansehelm told me to tell you that he does not wish to believe this, Herr Salier can't be death, he's a man like no other, unstoppable, he can't die.

The Knights looks around the Diet
I believe these rumours are true, even though I do not wish to believe them, I am sorry but I need to head back to my master, he should know of this, if things get worse he might even turn his army south.

Privateerkev

08-16-2007, 23:24

An aide in the livery of Jan von Hamburg nervously walks into the Diet. With his hands shaking, he addresses the electors while holding a report in his hand.

My dear electors,

Reports from the battle near Edessa are still sketchy. My lord, Jan von Hamburg, led the garrison of Edessa into battle in an attempt to reach King Salier. While the details of the battle remain unclear, what is known is that large parts of this garrison were shattered. Count Jan was in the middle of the fighting and his whole bodyguard detachment is listed as "casulties." It is believed that Count Jan was able to make it out of the melee and attempt to rally the remnants of the two armies in an effort to reach the safety of the walls of Edessa. With the improvement efforts of the Chancellor and Count Jan, the city is prepared to hold off a siege if the horse lords come to the walls. I hope to bring more news as soon as possible but it is difficult to get scouts into that area as the horse lords have skirmishers that keep killing our riders.

TevashSzat

08-16-2007, 23:58

Sorry for not participating much...but I think I will help the English army by Paris

AussieGiant

08-17-2007, 01:52

Arnold

So it seems we are not as invincible as we believed. King Sailer is dead and his army in tatters.

First contact has gone to the Mongols...

*Chrash*

down goes his mailed fist on the bench sending reports flying into the air

NOBLES OF THE REICH!!!

LETS SEE HOW WE RESPOND!!

We will mourn for the loss of him once the threat is passed.

Picking up another report the Duke's head shakes in disappointment

I see that dirty bastard Elberhard just got his blue balls sorted out!! More power to him I say!!

Lothar!! I guess we stike him of the list for next months party, he'll be too busy rodgering!!

FactionHeir

08-17-2007, 03:52

T'is indeed sad that a great man such as Salier has fallen in honorable battle.
While there will be a period of mourning, it ought not be now, but after we have sent the barbarians back to their steppes. No time must be wasted in our war effort.
I belive I speak for my fellow crusaders, when I say we will all rather fall than give any settlement to the Mongols.

Now if you excuse me, I have an army to lead.

Cecil XIX

08-17-2007, 05:35

It is uniquely distressing to face another great loss in so short a time. King Salier was never a grand-stander, he was always a humble voice of reason. He was the conscience of the Diet, and he will be missed.

Stuperman

08-17-2007, 19:02

Conrad was a dear friend of mine; he earned his spurs under me back when we were the young, up and comers of Bavaria. His death is truly a loss for the entire empire, His council, insight, and opinions were always of value.
I will miss him greatly.

TevashSzat

08-17-2007, 22:18

I come here to mourn the death of King Salier with everyone else.

I had my disagreements with him along with most of Swabia for that matter, but it is always a sad day to lise a respected member of the Reich.

AussieGiant

08-18-2007, 05:26

Entering the Diet Chamber encassed entirely in black plate, Arnold is flanked by his two most notorious companions

On behalf of Austria, I'd like to extend my condolensces to the von Mahren house. The passing of Jonas brings the end to one of the most compasionate men I have known.

His son's and daughters have kept the House of Austria from near extinction and for that I will be forever in his debt.

No matter the history between my Father and Jonas, the men and women of his household will be protected by me and and the nobles of my house for eternity.

God rest his soul.

Privateerkev

08-18-2007, 05:43

Jan walks into the Diet.

Yes, I wish to extend my heartfelt condolences to the von Mahren family. I can not think of a better way to honor Count Jonas, then to lift a beer in his memory. There is a new place down the block and anyone who wishes is welcome to join me.

Cecil XIX

08-18-2007, 06:05

*Edmund Becker sighs heavily*

I don't think anyone in the Reich has lived a more tragic life tan my father-in-law. I wish I could mourn for him, but in truth I am certain that he was happier to die than he was to live. God rest, von Mahren. I will make sure your bloodline continues.

econ21

08-18-2007, 19:22

Elberhard: Electors, we are in a period of transition from one generation to the next. During the last Diet, we have seen many fine members of the old guard leave us - Duke Gunther, Counts Fredericus and Jonas and King Conrad. Sadly, we have also seen a younger one go before his time too, chivalrous Count Sigismund. We honour the fallen.

But the younger generation will rise to the challenge. Already, we have the outstanding example of Chancellor Matthias whose term of office has seen our borders defended and expanded; our finances boosts and our alliances strengthened. I salute his achievement.

Electors, our Kaiser is on his way and hopes to join us soon. However, I do not think he will object if I step in and open this, our twelfth full Diet session. Matthias is a hard act to follow, but I ask any man of ambition and ability not to be daunted. Candidates for the post of Chancellor should come forward with their manifestoes. I urge them to do so promptly, so they can shape the debate and legislation in this session.

There will be a three day period for the proposal and seconding of laws. The deadline for candidates to declare and legislation to be seconded will be Tuesday 19.00 UK time. There will then be a one day period of voting.

Counts are reminded to post build queues for their settlements; Dukes to set orders for their Household Armies.

OverKnight

08-18-2007, 19:40

Matthias nods to the Prinz.

Thank you Prinz Elberhard, I am sorry to drag you away from your well deserved beer.

Matthias turns to the Diet.

I hereby announce my candidacy for reelection as Chancellor.

To some of you this might be a shock, for we have never had a two term Chancellor. This a fine tradition, but in this dangerous time we live in, we must adapt. We cannot risk to have an unproven leader take the helm of state.

I have accomplished much in my first term, but there are many goals I wish to finish. The Mongols must be destroyed and Jerusalem protected. Sicily must be expelled from Italy so as to remove the threat to Rome. The Teutonic Crusade must finish it's drive to Moscow and then return home. Our finances must continue to grow and our borders kept strong. Our allies must be kept in line, and our enemies weakened. These are the tasks left to me, I ask that you give me leave to finish them.

You all know me, you all know what I can do as Chancellor. I humbly ask that you give me a second term.

For God, Kaiser and the Reich.

Matthias sits, calmly awaiting the Diet's reaction.

Privateerkev

08-18-2007, 21:15

Jan stands up,

My dear Chancellor,

It pleases me to see that you are willing to stand for re-election. Your sacrifice does you credit. You have shown that you will guide us with a fair hand towards a greater tomorrow.

Jan turns towards the rest of the Electors,

If you have noticed, the Chancellor has not given his platform. I believe that is because his success has spoken louder than any words he could give you. If you have prospered under his stewardship, I would give careful thought before upsetting the apple-cart.

gibsonsg91921

08-18-2007, 22:05

I dislike keeping the power in the same hands for a long time. For this, I most likely will no vote for Matthias Steffen again.

econ21

08-18-2007, 22:07

Elberhard: As I have explained to the Council of Outremer, in the absence of the Kaiser, there are some housekeeping matters for Outremer that need to be attended to before the Diet ends. Should the Kaiser return before the Diet ends, he may amend or overturn what I am about to say. But given that you lot are becoming a right litigious bunch of @#$%^&!!!ers, I think it is best not to leave more loopholes or ambiguities than necessary.

As the Kaiser's deputy, in his absence, I am appointing Karl Zirn as King of Outremer. This is a provisional appointment and will only be permanent if approved by the Kaiser. Karl was the late King Salier's preference as his successor and is the most chivalrous man in the Reich.

Unfortunately, like the Kaiser, Karl can't be with us right now. So, in his absence, I am appointing myself as Steward of Outremer.

The reason I am declaring myself Steward is to make sure that each province of Outremer has a governor. Antioch, the capital of Outremer will be governed by Karl Zirn in his capacity as King of Outremer. As there are no other Austrians in Outremer, King Zirn will also govern Damascus. I am appointing Dieter Bresch as governor of Aleppo. As I intend to permanently return to the Reich during the next Diet, I am stepping down as Count of Acre. I hand it over to the safe hands of my older brother, Hans. There will be no change to governors of Adana (Matthias) and Edessa (Jan).

The Army of Outremer will be commanded by Hans, until such time as Karl Zirn is back fighting fit.

The point of all this, of course, is so that the Crusader Counts and Army of Outremer commander can post their orders before the Diet ends.

As Steward of Outremer, I will also propose any three (or is it six?) pieces of Outremer legislation the Crusader Council wishes to see tabled.

If anyone here has a problem with the above, you can @#$%^&!!! off.

I mean, er, you can propose a Constitutional Amendment, call a special Council of the Dukes, impeach my sorry @#$%^&!!!, whatever.

Ferret

08-18-2007, 22:21

Thank you mein Prinz for this appointment, I will not let you down

OverKnight

08-19-2007, 01:55

Matthias rises to speak.

I have no objections to Prinz Elberhard's ordering of Outremer. I hope the Kaiser and Count Zirn will return to us soon, so we might have a more permanent resolution.

My brief foray to the tavern has revealed that my manifesto might have left out some specifics. You can expect my second term to be much the like the first, though I will share some thoughts I have.

With the new Pope, our reputation with the Church has been restored, and the standing of those who war with us has fallen. As we know from previous experience, Sicily will remain unreconciled, even with a new Pope, until they make peace with the Papacy. The other Catholic factions are now close to excommunication. I'm afraid that the Pope's advanced age prohibits us from goading them into excommunication, but we can move freely against Sicily. If the next Pope is younger, we can then attempt to bring down Papal anger upon the others, and then we can move freely against them as well.

Once Moscow is seized, instead of simply abandoning it, I feel we should offer it to Poland in peace negotiations. I'm not sure if they'll bite, but if they agree, we can kill two birds with one stone. First, we remove the Poles, temporarily at least, as an opponent. Second, we set up a confrontation between them and the Russians. This will serve to divide their efforts, even if the Poles strike at us again.

Peace efforts will continue with other factions, but unless we are willing to offer them territories and Florins, I doubt it will accomplish much.

I have already given my views on other matters in my first speech. I also await any Edicts and Amendments passed in this Diet to give further shape to my next term.

I would also be happy to answer any questions the Electors might pose for me or any future candidates.

AussieGiant

08-19-2007, 04:09

Arnold

Thank Christ you said all that Elberhard!!

It was going to be a real $#@% up if you hadn't made those decisions in Outremer...well done I say.

With that settled, now we can get down to business.

Lord Matthias has done a fine job...I'd be loathed to run against him.

I will therefore not be running for the position of Chancellor and I'd will be seriously considering him for a second consecutive term.

In view of the upcoming session I am formally announcing Edmund Becker as Count of Prague.

Looking at Becker with a steely gaze

Don't lose it Becker!! And that's an order!!

Further more in accordance with CA 10.2 section a,

Arnold stops, looks quickly at his Priest, who now seems to be doubling as his chief lawyer, he receives a confirmation nod, then quickly continues

I propose:

Charter Amendment 12.1

The province of Bran is to be incorporated formally into the Holy Roman Empire.

--------------

I'd also like to propose we have a years free legal advise from every lawyer working for us!! What does everyone think about that!!?

Sitting, Arnold turns to his six legal councillors, their faces seem to indicate that meeting a Mongol horde in their underwear would be more preferable than dealing with their Duke at this time.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 04:13

Jan stands up.

Duke Arnold, you may find this hard to believe, but I hereby second Charter Amendment 12.1. Count Sigismund's resting place should be incorporated into the Reich.

Jan sits back down.

FactionHeir

08-19-2007, 04:15

I second CA 12.1.
We must not lose our eastern citadels to incapable allies again.

OverKnight

08-19-2007, 04:28

The proposal of CA 12.1 raises a question. CA 10.2 requires a CA to accept a conquered territory into the Reich. Is there an automatic vote on this, or do interested parties need to propose one themselves?

However it pans out, I will second CA 12.1.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 04:40

Chancellor Matthias, I apologize but I do not understand your question.

OverKnight

08-19-2007, 04:46

Here's the relevant part of the Charter.

Charter Amendment 10.2:
(a) No settlement will be captured without an Edict authorising its acquisition in advance.
(b) Captured settlements will be abandoned or given away unless, at the next Diet session, a Charter Amendment incorporates them formally as part of the Reich.
(c) The 33 existing provinces of the Reich are exempt from (a) and (b).
(d) This amendment overrides the constitutional right of Household Armies to conquer one neighbouring province.

My question is, does a vote requiring a two thirds majority automatically take place, or does someone, as Duke Arnold just did, have to propose the amendment?

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 04:51

Ah ok, thank you for patiently re-explaining it.

The way I read clause (b) of CA 10.2 is that someone, like Duke Arnold, needs to propose a CA for a territory. Otherwise, it will be abandoned or given away. If someone else has a different reading, then please speak up. It seems like the default is for territory to be given away while the onus to keep it is on the parties who wish to keep it.

FactionHeir

08-19-2007, 04:51

The definition of a charter amendment is that it requires a 2/3 diet majority to pass.
If you deem this unclear, then point a could also mean that only an edict has to be proposed but not passed. We certainly would not want this to happen, yes?

AussieGiant

08-19-2007, 04:51

In my view any CA's dealing with incorporating provinces into the Reich siply need to pass with the 2/3 majority need to pass a CA.

If it does then it is incorporated, if it doesn't then it is abandoned and/or given away.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 04:55

Right but Count Matthias is asking whether you need to propose the CA at all. By his question, all territories captured this past term all go up for an automatic vote. I think if it was meant to be that way, then clause (b) would read;

(b) Captured settlements will be abandoned or given away unless, at the next Diet session, 2/3rd's of the Diet vote to incorporate them formally as part of the Reich.

FactionHeir

08-19-2007, 04:56

Yes, that rings true Jan, and is the way I understood it as well.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 05:02

I wasn't even politically active when this thing was passed but I'll take a crack at it.

(b) of CA 10.2 means you need to;

first, propose a CA for the territory you wish to be part of the Reich

second, get a 2/3 vote for that CA to pass

if CA passes, the territory is part of the Reich and becomes Imperial until the Kaiser gives it to a house

if CA fails, the territory is to be abandoned or given away

if no one proposes a CA for a newly captured territory, then it is to be abandoned or given away.

How am I doing?

GeneralHankerchief

08-19-2007, 05:13

Jens Hummel:

Really, this whole argument is ridiculous and a waste of time.

The rules clearly say that a Charter Amendment is required to incorporate new territories into the Reich. So that means that...

Someone proposes a Charter Amendment,

People second the Amendment,

And then they vote on it.

If it passes then hey, it's a part of the Reich! Hooray, we're powerful! Drinks all around! If it fails then it's not a part of the Reich and must therefore be given away or sold. I fail to see how this legal obfuscation improves discussion at all aside from the fact that it swells certain people's heads just because since it appears that they dabble in legal matters more than the rest of us they consider themselves smarter.

Erm... where was I... Ah yes, I am Jens Hummel, I am here to serve.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 05:17

Young Jens, I think that is exactly what I said. I don't need to dabble in legal affairs to have a swollen head!

*laughs*

But anyways, welcome to the Diet. May your participation be longer and more meaningful than others of your family.

FactionHeir

08-19-2007, 05:17

Welcome to the diet, Jens. The Swabian benches are here. *points*

GeneralHankerchief

08-19-2007, 05:20

Jens Hummel:

Well then, if it's so agreed-upon then why bother discussing it in the first place?

Charter Amendment 12.2: Anyone found to be excessively over-complicating simple legal matters is to be banned from the Diet until they publicly apologize. Repeated violations will result in longer bans.

And anyone who has the balls enough to question me about the specifics of this law can go to Hell.

Good day everyone.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 05:22

*chuckles*

yup...its confirmed. He's a Hummel...

Jan returns to reading law books and paperwork

GeneralHankerchief

08-19-2007, 05:27

Jens Hummel:

No, I'm quite serious. Too many times has this Diet been bogged down debating on the importance of Clauses Fourteen-B through R, exempting F, I, and L when there are matters of strategy and diplomacy to be discussed. If we want a more efficient Empire then it is necessary that this Diet concentrate on the correct things. The Reich is to be run by men, not lawyers.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 05:28

Jan looks up and says to himself,

Aww, how cute. He's being serious...

GeneralHankerchief

08-19-2007, 05:33

Jens Hummel:

Yes, you take yourself seriously, don't you? Mister "I only became a Crusader Count because I prostituted myself to the King every chance I got." Tell me, have you saved any benefactors of yours from death at the hands of the Horse Lords lately? No, I imagine you were too busy debating with your advisors on whether to put "and" or "or" in an Edict.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 05:42

With those latest words, Jan looks up and stares Jens squarely in the eye.

Thats funny coming from someone who hasn't even seen combat yet. Luckily for you, your insulting a man that was far better than either of us could ever hope to be and he would disprove of me pounding you flat right here in the Diet.

You want to decrease the bureaucracy? Alright, then why don't you try to pass legislation that streamlines existing legislation? What you have proposed would only add a whole nother bureaucratic layer on top of what we already have. Who decides what is "excessive"? Who decides what is an "over-complication"? If your serious about making the Reich run better, then lets talk. I wasn't the one that brought up the issue with CA 10.2 anyways. I wasn't around the Diet when that was being discussed back in the 10th session.

Now, until your serious, I have inefficient business that I need to inefficiently get to.

GeneralHankerchief

08-19-2007, 05:49

Jens Hummel:

Alright, then why don't you try to pass legislation that streamlines existing legislation?

The legislation is streamlined, you wart. It's only insufferable pompous twits such as yourself that overcomplicate things.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 05:56

*chuckles*

insufferable? yup

pompous? guilty

twit? sure, why not

wart? not one of the better ones I've heard but what the hell

do I overcomplicate? Oh I won't even try to deny that one

But is your legislation streamlined? Sadly, the answer is no. Make it workable and I'll give it a second. Until then you will be essentially doing nothing to help the very problem you claim to care about.

Any more witty retorts?

Cecil XIX

08-19-2007, 05:58

Jens, you admit that your earlier proposed legislation was just wasting the Diet's time. Maybe if one of you would simply stop talking we could get on with this.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 06:02

Edmund,

Jens and I were just having a productive conversation on how the Reich could use better management. He has some good points buried in all of his spite. I welcome anyone who wishes to come in here and debate politics. I only wish more would do the same.

AussieGiant

08-19-2007, 06:15

Fury can be the only description to use when Arnold comes into the Diet Chamber. In an unprecedented move the Duke walks to the centre of the Chamber and stands for sometime waiting…with a sudden move he draws his father sword sweeping it through a few strokes at blinding speed, finally plunging the blade end first into the flag stones causing a shower of sparks.

Standing with feet shoulder width apart, both hands on his father sword before him, the Duke roles his neck with a practised motion causing audible cracks to echo through the halls.

RIGHT THEN!! Have we $^#^ing finished with the usual over analysis of plain ^#$^ing English!!!?? Vote on the CA, if it passes it's incorporated!!

Not waiting for a reply the Duke continues

I’d suggest the scribe gets this perfect or I’ll have him replaced immediately.

Another moment passes as the Duke gazes steadily at the Diet’s minute taker.

Kaiser, Prinz Elberhard, Dukes of the Realm….KING OF OUTREMER, Count’s of the various Houses, Crusader Counts of the East, dear electors of the Holy Roman Empire…

While I am not running for the position of Chancellor, I do have something to say.

It’s come to my attention at this point in the Reich's hisotry, that we seem to have some terminal issues to discuss.

While I stand here before you as Duke of the House of Austria, a man with the blood of his father, who is the son of Emperor Heinrich by direct decent, there seems to be some massive issues of balance at this moment in time.

I am a Duke who is as yet unmarried, therefore the direct male line of House of Austria stands on the brink of extinction…STILL.

No offence to Lord Matthias, I know he tried…

I am the Duke of one of the four ancestral houses making up the origins of this Reich.

At this time the House of Austria comprises three nobles. Both of whom had to be adopted by agreement between two great men to ensure the very existence as a House Austria continued in this chamber.

At this time I am permitted one personal edict while the House is permitted three edicts. While the rest of you enjoy the privilege of talking amongst yourselves about your House or Kingdom edicts, I on the other hand must socialise support from outside my immediate nobles who have sworn fealty directly to me.

While this may seem a minor issue to the rest of you...I would ask every Duke and KING here to think on this for a moment and wonder what it would be like to have to do this themselves!!??

…and while the House of Austria’s existence from one year to the next is in constant and real threat of extinction, the “KINGDOM” of Outremer expands time and time again.

The King wants more power and influence and so do the Counts…BUT WHERE DID THESE men come from!!? Which Noble Houses of this Reich made the initial sacrifice to secure Outremer in the first place!!??

And how does an ancestral House of this Reich become three times smaller than a Kingdom made by the Blood of these houses!!??

How does a Duke of this Realm NOW need to plead with other nobles of other Houses simply to have edicts supported to the standards we require!!

How does a King of Outremer have six edicts while a Duke has three?? How does anyone suggest that Outremer’s leader should have the same influence as those Dukes that sacrificed their own nobles in the taking of the region all those decades ago?!!!

Swinging his sword around the chamber is one mighty arc; the blow ends with the complete destruction of his father’s Ducal Seat.

THIS IS THE STATE OF MY HOUSE GENTLEMEN!!!

It stands on the brink of extinction…so while the you all think of placating me or asking me to see reason then don’t bother!!

Take a look at the numbers!! Take a look at the proposals you make, and keep in mind where Outremer came from in the first place.

Turning in a complete circle, making eye contact with each and every noble present the Duke finally speaks

Soon gentlemen you may need to create some bastardised Crusade to take Austria as it decomposes and dies in front of your eyes.

Then again that might be the perfect opportunity for you all to squabble over the prize.

It wont be four houses...

It will be three Houses and one Kingdom...

What's more $#%^ing truthful is that the offspring of this Reich could nearly pass that idea as legislation.

The situatiuon is a $%&$ing disgrace.

Sheathing his sword Arnold smashes the Diet Chamber doors open with his boot and continues outside

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 06:25

Duke Arnold, I hope that in my support for Edict 11.4, I have proven my commitment to the survival of the House of Austria. I am not going to debate something I already agree with. But I will answer one question. You ask how the King could have 6 edicts. It is because 7 people voted for both CA 11.4 and CA 11.3. And I was not one of them. Two of them were from your own house.

FactionHeir

08-19-2007, 06:39

Hans eyes the leaving Arnold critically, but seems unstirred

Well then, Duke Arnold raises a valid point that Austria does not have 2 electors besides himself to put forth any house edict at all.
In a conciliatory move, I am prepared to use my personal edict to propose a charter amendment:

CA 12.3:
The section reading:
"Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House."
is to be amended to read:
"Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. In the case where there are less than 3 electors in total in a Duke's House, the House edict may still be put forward to the diet with the requirement for a second seconder waived."

AussieGiant

08-19-2007, 06:43

Sometime latter the Duke enters covered in what can only be described as the most lethal looking suit of dark armour ever seen

Jan, while I am certain your support of my ancestral line is 100%, the intentions must be transformed into results somehow.

At one point there, after Sigismund was killed, there was only myself remaining.

While I have nothing personal against the men that have gone to Outremer and the sacrifice made there has been huge...the House of Austria is near it's end.

One thing I will not do is go down without a fight. That is the least I can do for my fathers memory.

Suddenly looking somewhat exhausted, Arnold continues in a more subdued tone

As for the specifics of Outremer edict...well, that is a product of too many lawyers and too many edicts in my view.

This Reich was created when things we clear and men could understand each others intentions...now it's a play ground for lawyers, sycophants and whispers in the dark.

Hans' your offer is very generous, but it does not resolve the issue at the heart of the matter. Therefore I do not want you to use your personal edict in this manner.

Pausing

You don't have to do that Hans

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 06:44

Hans,

I agree with CA 12.3 but what happens in the unfortunate circumstance that there is only one person left? Under the language of this CA, can the house edict be put forward with no seconds and get those seconds from the Diet proper?

Duke Arnold,

I agree that you need results. So, what can we do about this?

FactionHeir

08-19-2007, 06:50

You raise an interesting point Jan. I had not thought of a House which only encompassed the Duke alone, as Duke Arnold has put forward his recent experience. As such, I shall amend the CA to read:

CA 12.3:
The section reading:
"Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House."
is to be amended to read:
"Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. In the case where there are only 1 or 2 electors in total in a Duke's House, a House edict may still be put forward to the diet requiring only the number of possible seconding electors in the House as seconders."

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 06:52

Then I second CA 12.3.

A Duke should not have to go to the Diet to secure support for his Ducal edicts. That just doesn't make sense. This will fix that.

OverKnight

08-19-2007, 06:53

Matthias raises an eyebrow at Duke Arnold's outburst.

My good Duke, I will try not to placate you, but hear me out.

First, in regard to Austria lacking a quorum of Nobles to propose legislation. I would suggest that if you and Becker can agree on legislation, you could propose a House Edict, it would just need another second from the Electors once proposed in the Diet. The Prinz would have to rule on the viability of this, since he is acting for the Emperor.

If this does not pan out, I will volunteer my own personal proposal for the use of Austria.

Second, as you may now, the Duchy of Austria is the last house in the Reich to be ruled by a direct descendant of Kaiser Heinrich. Kaiser Henry chose to pass on Swabia to Ulrich Hummel. Dietrich von Saxony and Otto von Kassel, Heinrich's son-in-laws, had no male children to pass on their Duchies to, instead they were passed on to adoptees. Your situation, while unfortunate, is not unique.

We can help with the Edicts, but marriage and child birth, particularly the latter, are in the hands of God.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 06:56

Count Matthias,

I wish we could think of some way for Duke Arnold to put forward House edicts in this Diet without needing to get seconds from the other electors. No other Duke or King needs to do this and I believe it would be wrong to force Duke Arnold to do so. I would only support that if there was no other way.

FactionHeir

08-19-2007, 06:58

Duke Arnold, I insist on this amendment to the charter to ensure that Austria has an equal opportunity to put forth its house edicts as any other house can.
And Matthias Steffen, I believe that a house edict should not hinge on seconders from other houses, as long as the house it comes from supports it as best as it can, which CA 12.3 will enable. You are correct on the problem of marriage however, and I would advise any future chancellor to accept any proposal of marriage for the good of the empire instead of turning them down for political gain.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 07:01

Hans, while your CA would help in the future, we need to find a way to get around this problem now. Any ideas?

FactionHeir

08-19-2007, 07:05

There is no way of getting around this problem immediately without going against the charter, but Duke Arnold is more than welcome to converse with Swabia and have his Austrian legislation passed as a Swabian house edict until CA 12.3 is passed.

OverKnight

08-19-2007, 07:20

I will second CA 12.3.

For any of you wondering, I accepted all marriage proposals made during my first term.

AussieGiant

08-19-2007, 07:47

Arnold

At the risk of breaking protocol;

CA 12.1 should be one of the three Austrian House edicts/charter amendments.

Thank you to everyone who has seconded the CA.

Ituralde

08-19-2007, 08:56

An Imperial messenger enters the Diet chambers, bearing the crest of the Emperor.

Nobles of the Reich, I bring you word from your Emperor Siegfried!

He looks slightly disgusted but continues in a steady voice.

He wants me to pass on his condolence over the death of King Salier. He was very sad to hear about the occasion. The matter of a new King of Outremere will also be resolved by the Emperor.

He once again extends his thanks to Chancellor Matthias, who has done a superb job of administering the Reich. Should he decided to run for a second time, he has the Kaisers full support.

Which leads me to the Emperor's wish to not invoke his prerogative of taking the office of Chancellor. He feels, he can't be bothered to administer the day to day affairs of the Reich. He wants to thank Prince Elberhard to for overseeing the Diet in his absence.

On to the legal matters then:

Before a new King of Outremer is appointed some clarifications have to be made concerning our Charter. The newly passed CA 11.6 contradicts itself with the Charter of Outremere. As with contradicting Edicts the Emperor decided to favour the solution that received the most votes when two Charter Amendments are contradicting. Thereby CA 11.6 is stricken from the Charter, as more people voted on the contradicting legislature of the Charter of Outremere, as can be seen by the Diets recording.

By the same reasoning the contradicting CA 11.3 and the corresponding part of CA 11.4 are resolved. Therefore CA 11.3 overrules the statements made in CA 11.4.

The post of King of Outremer is appointed to Jan von Hamburg until the next Diet session. He has shown much valour in the fight against the Mongols and will surely defeat them a third time!

That's all the Emperor has to say on matters in the Diet for now.

He bows and leaves the chamber again.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 09:18

Upon hearing the news, Jan stands up

I am honored in the faith that Kaiser Siegfried places in me. I will do my utmost to serve the Reich and the Lord. If you would all excuse me, I need to go to my quarters to deliberate. I will be back with announcements.

AussieGiant

08-19-2007, 09:30

Arnold

Well I'm glad everything has overridden everything else for $£"% sake!!

So in conclusion, what the fly $^&£ are the consequences of all that in clear High German!!?

And therefore on that note:

I second CA 12.2!!!

£$"^ me this is incredible.

econ21

08-19-2007, 12:23

Elberhard: Duke Arnold, it's cool mate. Basically, just ignore everything I said as Steward of Outremer. Jan is King now and will make his own announcements shortly.

The Kaiser has clarified that the King of Outremer has only three extra votes, not six, which I think most Electors will agree is the only reasonable resolution of the contradictory Charter Amendments passed at the last Diet.

On Austria's inability to propose House Edicts, Karl Zirn is now free to second any House Edicts so in principle your problem goes away. In practice, Karl's still as sick as parrot, so you are still in deep @#$%^&!!!. I am not sure it is worth proposing a Charter Amendment to deal with the contingency of someone having a puke, but the way it is going nowadays, you need three Edicts and one Charter Amendment before you can even @#$%^&!!! your @#$%^&!!!, so why the @#$%^&!!! not? However, in the vain hope that I can keep the lawyers at bay, in Karl's absence, I pledge to personally second any House laws you propose. I can't propose I will actually vote for them, but I will make sure they are put to a vote.

On one point, though, I do think the Kaiser has @#$%^&!!!d up though. He cannot strike down CA 11.6 on the grounds that it contradicts CA9.1, the Charter of Outremer. I think he was referring to this part of the Charter in his ruling:

3.5. Tied edicts fail. If contradictory edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority.

However, this part implicitly refers to edicts passed in the same Diet. If one CA is passed in one Diet, and a contradictory one in a subsequent Diet, then the later one should take precedent. That's what Charter Amendments are about - amending the Charter. They may often contradict the charter, but that is why they require a 2/3 majority.

I am reluctant to confront the Kaiser on this - and even more reluctant to open up a new topic for the lawyers to obsess about. But this must be clear, otherwise we will spend an eternity dredging up old polls to see what majorities earlier CAs had. And the Charter of Outremer will probably never be able to be amended - as it was passed virtually unopposed, if I recall.

Pauses for breath

Electors, I hope this Diet can turn to the real issues confronting the Reich and not obsess about legalisms.

Is there no man here other than Matthias who wishes to run for Chancellor? I have the profoundest respect for Matthias, but a contest is healthy - is there none among you who wishes to stand? I will run if none among you can be bothered to get off your fat @#$%^&!!!s!

And what about the direction of the Reich?

How shall we respond to the Spanish declaration of war?

What should we do to deal with the ceaseless attacks of the Poles on our north eastern border?

How can we shore up the eastern border of Austria, which seems to be leaking like a sieve?

How can we best help our allies by marriage, the English and the Byzantines?

Where should the crusader army heading for Moscow go after it has accomplished its mission?

Stig

08-19-2007, 13:08

A strange man enters the Diet, wearing a long fur coat, and an even longer beard. He attracts all attention to him as he walks into the Diet and he sits down somewhere among the Franconian benches. Then he stands again and speaks

Meine Herren, you might reckonize me from last time, I'm Gert von Runstede, infantry commander of the Teutonic Army. My lord, Duke Ansehelm has send me to you with some messages.
First of all I'm here to tell you that Herr von Kastillien has not been able to make it here himself, he wanted to, but in it's current state the army cannot be left alone.

His first message is concerning Helmut von Hamburg, he is hereby named Count von Hamburg of Hamburg.

A second message is concerning the Teutonic Crusade. Duke Ansehelm wants to it Vilnius on his return trip. Thorn is safe now, he suggest that the FHA moves out towards Vilnius by the time the Teutonic Army will reach it as well.
After that the Duke wants to move the Teutonic Army towards Danish territory, in order to relieve the Imperial Army there. If that meets too much opposition in the Diet Duke Ansehelm would love to move against either Spain or Hungary using his army.

Next to that he urges the fact that more marriages should take place, many men are still bachelors, including himself, and the Reich needs more young men.

For the remainder of the Diet I will stay here to answer your questions.

AussieGiant

08-19-2007, 14:14

Arnold

Elberhard, you had me there for a moment. Then you went all legaleez on me and my £$%£ing lawyers are still trying to work out what you said.

Anyway, I'll take you up on your offer you old DOG!! If you would be so kind to second me ramblings in the Diet that would be excellent.

Zirn's wife doesn't know if it's his arse or his head which is in worse shape, so he's goner at the moment.

Basically the Kaiser seems to have £$%$ed it up, I thought it was too go to be true with all the hashish and shiet going on over there in Constantinople.

I'd say your take on things regarding amendments is correct Elberhard. The latest edict is most recent and must supersede all others. There is no possible way we can retrospectively go back and see what the voting count was to determine weighting.

I personally am happy for fewer edict and amendment. We are clearly not able to even organise a $£%£ in a brothel with a thousand florins in our hands...so the less the better at this point in time.

I will think on the Austrian front solution and propose some legislation tomorrow.

GeneralHankerchief

08-19-2007, 15:25

Jens Hummel:

WHAT?!

Kaiser, with all due respect, I do not believe that you have made the right choice for King. It was always Salier's wish that Zirn succeed him. Hell, everyone in Outremer knew this! Besides, don't you owe him one for him backing you in that nasty little succession dispute some time back (which, by the way, I had absolutely no part in)? Come on, man, honor the man's last wishes and make the right decision here.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 16:12

King Jan walks back in with reports under his arms. Max fills him in on what has happened lately.

Young Jens,

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, it was the Kaiser's decision to make and he has made it. As to what was owed, the Kaiser doesn't owe any of us anything. He is our Kaiser. The Lord chooses him to be his representative here in the Reich and we serve. In fact, this is exactly the kind of simple decision making that you were crying out for just last night. While there have been disputes as to the length of my service as King, no one has yet disagreed that it is the Kaiser's right to appoint the King of Outremer.

King Jan turns to the rest of the Diet.

Which brings me to my next point. Here is my tentative list of Crusader Count appointments. I say tentative because I am still waiting for word from some people with regards to their wishes.

At that last sentence, King Jan looks over at Jens.

Unless specified later otherwise, the list is such;

Adana, Matthias Steffen
Damascus, Karl Zirn
Aleppo, Dieter Bresch
Acre, Hans

Thank you

*edit*

A messenger comes in and passes a note to Gunther who slides it over to Jan who reads it.

So thats his decision eh? So be it. Alright, I am hereby announcing that these Crusader Count appointments are no longer tentative. They are set as is until the next Diet. I will take over Antioch and Edessa as well as command the Army of Outremer.

FactionHeir

08-19-2007, 17:18

Hans files through several scrolls and letters, eying them critically before standing to speak

My noble lords,

It seems that there is no one else standing as chancellor to contest Matthias election?
As we all know, it is important to have a contest for this esteemed position and not let it simply fall into someone's hands, may they be so capable.

In this light, I wish to announce that I shall once again stand for this honorable post to lead our glorious empire - to not only create a contest, but also to further our own common goals.

Many of you have been active during my last chancellorship which was shortly before the two short-lived ones of the late Hümmel and emperor Jobst, and know of my capabilities and the prosperity that I have brought to the empire as well as my skill in leading the second crusade to take Damascus within 8 years as well as defeating the first wave of Mongol aggression.
When I ended my term, we had an excess of 38,000 florins profit a year, 12,000 more than at the start of my term.

I shall not ramble on too much about my term as most of it can be read in the chancellor's reports that are filed at the library at the back of the diet hall.

Now, as to my goals as chancellor should you deem me worthy of election:

- The elimination of the Mongols threat and ensuring that they never think of returning to our lands again. I shall personally pursue them to the edge of the desert to make sure of this if necessary.

- Accepting each and every marriage offer that is presented during my term, unless the affected person does not wish marriage. Please write me in this case as soon as you can.

- The successful crusade to Moscow and consultation with Duke Ansehelm on his further moves as well as fully cooperating with his wishes.

- The successful taking of Naples and Palermo if authorized by the diet for Bavaria.

- The successful taking of Caen by Swabia if authorized by the diet.

- Supplying additional troops to aid Austria in fortifying Bran as well as preparing fort border defenses to the south against Sofia and to the east against Iasi.

- Fulfillment of each and every edict you present me. I know that there have been doubts about one of the edicts during my former term, and this time around, I will work even harder to ensure everyone is satisfied.

- Economic build policy to strengthen law and order as well as increase our income by hiring merchants and levying appropriate taxes. As in my previous term, there shall be no riots, but at best peaceful demonstrations. Also, I shall accept building queue changes during my term if they are sent to me in writing and will do my best to fulfill them. No longer will you have to submit them on time - this shall allow your counties to develop as you wish.

- Successful warfare and logisitics to ensure victory. As you know, I offer everyone the chance to travel wherever they wish, without second guessing. If you wish to travel to, say, Palermo, I will not be holding you off indefinitely or even lie to you about your status. I intend, and will be, completely transparent in those actions and show you the respect you deserve as nobles of this empire and thus further our common goals. Do not expect easy battles, but expect to fight often if you wish it and if our borders necessitate it.

- Border control. I shall further endeavor to build watchtowers where there are none as of yet and fortify important locations using forts which will serve the purpose of slowing an enemy advance to allow us additional time to prepare and strike back.

- Diplomacy. I will once more endeavor to keep our allies friendly and malleable while striking pre-emptively at enemy forces entering our lands or threatening our borders. If peace offers are received, I shall attempt to squeeze as much tribute as possible out of the offenders. I will upkeep the alliance with gifts and military support, whereby our forces will strike together with our allies against a common foe.

- I shall attempt to improve our naval forces in Italy to block any attempt of the Spanish and Moors landing troops on our soil and blockade their ports to cut their funds.

- Last but not least, I will be open to any suggestions that you believe are necessary and discuss policies if you require.

You are more than welcome to question my approach.

Hans bows and sits

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 17:23

Two former Chancellors running? Since both had success during their last Chancellorships, I have not yet made up my mind as to which one to vote for. I will wait and see what kind of discussion develops in here first.

Either way, with such people running, I suspect easy sailing no matter who wins.

Stig

08-19-2007, 20:06

Gert von Runstede stands

Herr Jan, you might want to strike Herr Hummel down, but don't judge him like his father or brother, that's what Duke Ansehelm told me. Sides to that he also said it is strange that the Kaiser disagrees with the will of the late King Salier, there is much more he said on this, but I'm not in the position to tell you.

Privateerkev

08-19-2007, 21:09

Gert von Runstede,

I am sure young Hummel will be given plenty of opportunities to prove that he not like his father or brother. By his request, I am going to send him home and I wish him luck in whatever endeavors he takes on next.

As to my appointment. While I do not know why the Kaiser chose me over Karl, I do know he is well within his rights to choose whomever he wishes. Anyone who is curious can take it up with the Kaiser. Don't ask me. I just work here.

*shrugs*

As a side note, you can tell your Duke that I am pleased to see a von Hamburg in charge of Hamburg again. Its good to see that my older brother is doing well for himself.

Warmaster Horus

08-19-2007, 23:49

Friedrich, after conversing briefly with friends from the Bavarian House, stands and begins to speak.

Herren of the Diet, I am a newcomer here. I will, therefore, bid you forgive me for any breach of protocol. I understand, however, that this is the time to propose edicts. I believe I have not heard such a declaration during the twelfth Diet. I shall make one such now.

Edict 12.1: The Chancellor must do all in his power to conquer the towns of Naples and Palermo, thus re-unifying Italy and striking a heavy blow at the Kingdom of Sicily.

Friedrich pauses briefly, regaining his breath.

While it was never in doubt that those settlements would be conquered during the next chancellorship, I wished to make a point. The provinces surrounding those settlements were prominent during the old Roman Empire, that of Julius Caesar and his heir Caesar Augustus. I believe that we, united under the banner of the Holy Roman Empire should strive to bring it back into existence.

One of you has asked "What of the Spanish Declaration of War?" I would ask that we keep them at bay, until our lands stretch over those of the French, until we are within striking distance, until we can smell their putrid breaths!

Eh, pardon me if I spoke slightly out of turn...

gibsonsg91921

08-20-2007, 01:59

I second Edict 12.1, and propose Edict 12.2: Any army of the Reich is authorized to conquer the Polish fortress of Vilnius. If an army is unavailable, one shall be created.

FactionHeir

08-20-2007, 02:43

The Sicilians, although long-time allies, have chosen to attack the papacy we have sworn to protect as well as betray our alliance foolishly.

However, I feel that if edict 12.1 allowed room for one attempt at diplomacy to either obtain a ceasefire at a good price or make the Sicilians our vassals, it would be much more secondable.

gibsonsg91921

08-20-2007, 02:46

Sicily still has Tunis. However, we cannot be certain about our safety with such a fool's kingdom. Driving them off of Italy and then suing for peace while they are in African exile would be most acceptable.

FactionHeir

08-20-2007, 02:57

Hans walks over to a scribe and asks to see the map again. He can be seen intently asking for the most recent and not some old map. Studying it carefully, he returns to the floor.

Interesting. They also seem to hold some backwater town of Tripoli down there.

In that case, I shall second both edicts 12.1 and 12.2

In addition, I present you the Swabian house edict:

Edict 12.3
The House of Swabia Army is authorized to take Caen from the French to stop further French invasions, to pressure the Danes from a second front, and to allow resupply at a closer region.
Proposed: Steward Hans
Seconded: Jens Hümmel, Duke Scherer, Athalwolf von Salza

In addition, Athalwolf von Salza is hereby announced Count of Dijon to rule his honorable father's lands.

Ignoramus

08-20-2007, 04:00

A hush falls over the Diet as Wolfgang Hummel enters and kneels before the Kaiser.

"Mein Kaiser, forgive me for mein rash actions, I beg you. I publically apologise for mein disloyal actions against you, and formally ackwoledge you as Kaiser of the Reich. As a show of good faith, I surrender the County of Lorraine to mein gut Duke Scherer."

Wolfgang gets to his feet and walks back to the Swabian benches.

"Electors of the Reich, I put myself forward for the office of Chancellor. I confess that mein actions against the Kaiser have tarnished mein reputation, but I now seek a chance to clear mein name.

I have a plan for the Reich, a glorious plan. I can see the Reich become the glory of Christendom, and the renaissance of Europe.

Firstly, we must modernise our soldiers. Bows and arrows are becoming obsolete as this mysterious exploding powder is becoming more refined. The Poles have shown us how cannon can be used, and we must not be second to the Poles.

Secondly, we must secure the Italian peninsular. We, who call ourselves the Holy Roman Reich, cannot leave one inch of Italian soil in foreign hands. And, as we know, the Sicilians are heretics, attacking His Holiness, and deserve nothing but the sword.

Then there is the question of our enemies. I propose that we launch offensives against them, crushing their armies. With their soldiers and generals dead, they will have little option but to sign punishing truces with us.

Finally, we must assure a balanced spread of our generals. I fear that Bran is leaderless at the moment and must be secured."

Wolfgang bows and resumes his seat in the Diet.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 04:02

Jan walks in and checks in with the scribe to catch up on what has transpired.

First off, welcome Elector Karolinger!

Your edict 12.1 already has the required seconds but I will voice my support of it. Sicily attacked the Papacy. Enough said.

Count Peter,

My older brother and cousins in Franconia have suffered for too long from sieges around Thorn. If this edict can help alleviate their situation, then I support it. I hereby second edict 12.2.

Count Hans,

My family is from Hamburg so I have grown up living with Danish aggression. If capturing Caen can help make life easier up on the northern front, then it should be done. Since your edict is already pre-seconded, I can not second it but I do publicly support it.

GeneralHankerchief

08-20-2007, 05:18

*With the annoucement that his brother is standing for Chancellor Jens Hummel departs the Diet and heads straight for the bar.*

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 05:23

Alright then, I will now take this oppurtunity to present two CA's using two edicts given to Outremer by CA 11.3. According to law, these two CA's are already pre-seconded by Crusader Counts. There have been some who complain that we have too many laws and edicts floating around. Well, I assure you that these two only amend existing law.

Charter Amendment 12.4:
Clause 3.10 is amended to read as follows (changes in bold):

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +6 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 4 points):
Duke: +3
King: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.

Proposed: King Jan
Seconded: Count Hans, Count Matthias

I have thought a lot about CA 12.4. I am not a Duke. I do not intend to try to pretend that I am one. But, I am King of Outremer. While I have less responsibilities than a Duke, I do have more responsibilities than a Count. Therefore, I ask for influence that makes sure that Kings will at least have equal influence to all of their own Crusader Counts. This ensures that I have at least as much influence as any Crusader Count under my command while keeping me with less influence than every Duke. I already am able to sit on the council that decides succession disputes so there is precedent for having the King fill a role that is in between that of Count and Duke.

Charter Amendment 12.5:
Charter Amendment 9.1 is amended to read as follows (changes in bold):

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia. Antioch will be the capital of Outremer and an Imperial province governed by the King of Outremer. Edessa will also be an Imperial province, governed by a Count chosen by the King of Outremer. The Crusading Count for a settlement should first be assigned according to house, but in the event where that is not possible, the Crusader Count can come from any House. They will gain +1 influence, but only if they are not already a Count in their Duchy, and only for the Diet session that marks their appointment. The cap of 6 influence for all but the Emperor remains.
Proposed: King Jan
Seconded: Count Hans, Count Matthias

Quite simply, the King needs more flexibility with Crusader Count assignments. I would love it if every house had the manpower to send two nobles each. But, that is not realistic. Duke Arnold has eloquently stated his lack of nobles and how it is endangering his house. Therefore, while I would love to always assign Crusader Counts from a house to the corresponding Crusader County from that same house, this will not always be possible. What if we have no counts from one house but three from another? Which has happened. I should be able to assign my counts where they are needed. I do not want to have a good man sitting with no county when there is a county from another house open because that house is unwilling or unable to send a Crusader Count.

King Jan hears Wolfgang announce his candidacy and watches Jens leave for the bar.

Now that young man has a fine idea. I could use a drink...

GeneralHankerchief

08-20-2007, 05:40

Jens Hummel:

*Jens comes stumbling back in, more than slightly inebriated.*

And here we go again, talking about whether some old fop gets two extra influence points or three! Tell me, WHY does this always occur EVERY Diet Session? Don't you all think that our time would be better spent discussing on strategies on how to combat France, or pulverize Sicily? NOOOOOOO!!! How 'bout- how 'bout we start worrying about the interests of the PEOPLE rather than some stinkin' King and his pretty little influence points?

Come on, people, I know some of you out there agree with me! Why isn't CA 12.2 seconded yet?

My head hurts...

OverKnight

08-20-2007, 07:25

Matthias rises to speak.

I welcome Count Wolfgang and Count Hans to the race.

I would like to answer the questions Prinz Elberhard posed.

How shall we respond to the Spanish declaration of war?

I would assume a defensive posture for now. A strong fleet should be based around Corsica and Sardinia to sink or drive off invasions before they arrive. Once a younger Pope is in power, I would allow the invasions to land, to see if the Spaniards could be excommunicated. If that occurs, a possibility of a Crusade to one of their territories emerges.

What should we do to deal with the ceaseless attacks of the Poles on our north eastern border?

I proposed earlier that we should see if the Poles would accept Moscow in peace negotiations. This would set up a confrontation with the Russians while removing the endless pin pricks in the east.

If this is not possible, I would suggest the occupation of Krakow, not Vilnius. By doing this, we would weaken the Poles while shortening our own border. This would also prevent Polish strikes south at Budapest. The province around the city also has a north-south road that would aid in a more efficient defense agaisnt strikes from Vilnius and provide a link between Thorn and Budapest.

How can we shore up the eastern border of Austria, which seems to be leaking like a sieve?

The death of Sigismund von Mahren left the Austrian HA leaderless and reduced our ability to "clean up" the border. Duke Arnold is a few years away from assuming command of the AHA which is now fully reinforced from Bran. Once that occurs, the Hungarians will be removed from our lands with extreme vigor.

How can we best help our allies by marriage, the English and the Byzantines?

Now that we have weakened Hungary by taking Bran, we could try seizing Sofia to give to the Byzantines again. This might be an unpopular move, but it would restore a land link to Outremer. I would be disinclined to take Sofia for ourselves because it would signifigantly lengthen our borders.

As for the English, we could seize Caen and return it to them. The castle would not assist us in opening up a "second front" against the Danes as it does not border Antwerp, Bruges does. This would also serve to fragment the French holdings.

Where should the crusader army heading for Moscow go after it has accomplished its mission?

If we can make peace with the Polish, I would send them back through Russian territory. If the Poles are obstinate, I would send the Crusade back through Polish territory in a grand chevauchée. They could then assist with the pacification of Krakow.

Warluster

08-20-2007, 08:00

Athalfwolf stands, staring at Matthias

I a, afraid I have to bite back.

Firstly, the Spanish are a serious matter. They control the seas West of Italy and the Corisca and Sardina Islands. They control Southern France. They can invade Rome, they can storm German France. Do none forsee these dangwers? This very capital is at potential risk!?

All this talk of seizing places and returning them. Absurd! We waste precoious German lives, just to be in some bloody drunk Byzantines Emperors good books! Or some foul English King! How many good men have fallen to claim a city, only to have it returned to another owner, only then to have THEm turn against US! Unce again, as with the Russian Crusade, it is a waste of lives. We have plenty of money, if we do not keep those Northern Lands, why even claim them!?

FactionHeir

08-20-2007, 08:48

I doubt that there can be lasting peace with the Poles. Giving them Moscow will not lead to peace and they would not accept such a "gift" knowing that we are trying to set them up.
Looking at the maps, one must be aware that the Poles and Russians have bordered each other since centuries already and are not currently actively at war with each other but rather attack us. Giving them Moscow thus will not change matters. It will only throw it away needlessly. I say we do with Moscow the way Duke Ansehelm would wish to deal with it, as it is his crusade goal and he has spent men and energy to take it.

While Caen may not be directly bordering Antwerp, the road via Bruges is a short one, and having a top citadel literally next door to the Danes will allow us to open further offensives and prevent them from spending significant resources on our northern border, which is important especially as Siegfried at this time may be unavailable to lead the men into battle and the other Franconians are still busy around Thorn and soon Vilnius.

As for Sofia, there is no edict calling for its taking this diet session, so discussing its fate should not be relevant at this time. Certainly, any region that is taken via an edict should not be given to an ally who will only sell it off to its former master to make some quick florin. The Byzantines have shown what they are capable of, and I am sure no one in the diet wishes to see a repeat of these events whereby we waste needless German lives to make some distant ruler richer without return.

OverKnight

08-20-2007, 08:55

The proposal concerning Sofia was merely that, not a statment of intention.

Fritz von Kastilien has capably led the Army of the Interior in the absence of Kasier Siegfried.

If the Poles don't take the bait, we'll abandon Moscow, as called for, and devestate their lands. No harm, no foul.

Are you going to answer your Brother's questions Count Hans? Or are you content to critique the answers of others?

FactionHeir

08-20-2007, 09:09

I have answered them implicitly in my manifesto.
Hostility between candidates helps noone, so I shall be keeping this more civil.

For the Spanish:
- I shall attempt to improve our naval forces in Italy to block any attempt of the Spanish and Moors landing troops on our soil and blockade their ports to cut their funds.

For the Poles:
Peace is impossible without giving up too many of the empire's resources and they will end up betraying us anyway. Besides, too many good Germans have fallen only for us to pay our old foe tribute for a ceasefire. It should be them who ought to pay us if they wish one. The taking of Vilnius will isolate their capital and drain them of resources to attack us. Blockading the roads around Krakow will prevent their economy from growing.

Austria's estern border is to be defending using 2-3 forts to block roads inward from Sofia and Iasi. These will be lightly defended and serve as a deterrent and early warning system. If they are besieged, we lose nothing and have time to prepare a counterattack. At the same time, raids will be launched into Sofia to destroy patrols.

The English can be helped by pressuring the Danes by the taking of Caen. Further, if they are in need of aid in battle, troops will be sent swiftly to ensure support. At the same time, whenever relations deteriorate, small gifts in florins shall be made to ensure their loyalty. As for the Byzantines, I endeavor to block off Adana using forts so that they will not be able to send any sizable force near it and end up betraying us.

Duke Ansehelm's army goes where he wants it to go, not where I wish it to go. Any movement of any noble should be of their own choosing unless they give no orders. I do not believe, as other chancellors, that nobles are to move at my whim. They are nobles afterall, and part of this diet. I have no problems answering to each and everyone of their requests honestly and politely.

OverKnight

08-20-2007, 09:23

As for Sofia, there is no edict calling for its taking this diet session, so discussing its fate should not be relevant at this time.

This is an interesting statement considering that you personally conquered Sofia during your Chancellorship when there was no Edict calling for it.

The same could be said of your donation of Durazzo to the Papacy.

I am sorry if you misunderstand our debate in this Chamber as hostility Count Hans. The Electors would benefit from an airing of the issues.

AussieGiant

08-20-2007, 09:33

Arnold

Looking at Hans for a few moments

Well...now that you mention it Hans, maybe there will be an edict requesting Sofia is captured AGAIN.

Can someone please tell me where I can see a summary of the current edicts and CA's?

Turning again to Hans

Your ideas of strategic forts are intersting Hans.

Would you consider doing this as well Lord Matthias?

FactionHeir

08-20-2007, 09:37

If that edict is passed, I shall of course be carrying it out and ensure that Sofia has a fort to block off the River to the north to Buchrest and another to the south in case the Venetians become bolder. During my station in Sofia in my term, I have already erected many watchtowers in the region, so this will not be necessary.

As for the summary Hans waves over a scribe Hand this to Duke Arnold.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1643291&postcount=12

OverKnight

08-20-2007, 09:42

Thank you for reminding me, Duke Arnold. The scribes tell me that a listing can be found here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1643291&postcount=12).

As for Forts, I have already built one on the Elbe near Hamburg. It has been useful in containing the Danes. The Bran area could also benefit from Forts because it has several choke points. Of course, a noble is needed to direct the work crews, so construction could only begin once Duke Arnold reached the area. We may as well establish some watchtowers as well, while he's there.

As for Forts in other places, they're generally only useful in constricted areas close to reinforcement. I would have to do a survey (look at a save) before I made more specific comments on other areas of the Empire.

AussieGiant

08-20-2007, 09:50

Excellent Matthias, Hans thankyou both.

Now a comment.

Edict 12.2

I don't like the wording at all. Why is the FHA not mentioned rather than some vague comment about a Reich army?

This opens the door for another Franconian Lead Army being created to take this province. I hope you can all see gentlemen of Franconia that Austria deperately needs a second army also. Am I mistaken?

Having read the CA's 12.4 and 12.5 proposed by King Jan I will also support his ideas regarding the influence of the King and the flexibilty to assign counts.

My only thoughts on the matter are that the position of King should be handled much like the Chancellor. It should be rotated rather than handed for life. In addition the issue of six edicts needs to be viewed with common sense rather than the letter of the law.

Stig

08-20-2007, 10:21

Gert von Runstede:
I think Duke Ansehelm would agree with you Arnold, he even prepared a Edict concerning Vilnius:
Edict 12.?
The fortress of Vilnius will be attacked by the FHA by the time the Teutonic Army decides to come back. They will meet in Vilnius and if one of the armies has problems reaching it's goals it will be supported by the other. This also makes it possible for the FHA to return and protect Breslau or Thorn.
Next to that: if Vilnius proves too dangerous and comes under constant attack, taking too much of the Reichs resources, military buildings will be destroyed and the city will be left.

I think it would be up to Herr Peter to decide to replace it or not.

AussieGiant

08-20-2007, 10:29

Arnold

I would have to agree with your Duke there von Runstede.

Perhaps the wording could be changed? As it is I would have to vote against it due to my concerns. Specific mention of the FHA would be enough to ease my thoughts on the matter.

May I also add, I applaud the intestinal fortitude of Wolfgang Hummel on him running for the position of Chancellor.

The more it is contested the healthier the result. Don't prejudge the man too harshly. He's sworn fealty and that is the end of the matter.

Wolfgang what are your thoughts on the Austrian front?

econ21

08-20-2007, 11:30

Elberhard: Given that our finances appear to be in good shape, I think the time may be right to propose CA 12.6:

CA 12.6 (1) Each House will have TWO standing Household Armies. They will operate according to CA5.1 in all respects, but have separate commanders appointed by the Duke.
(2) Outremer will have two standing armies. They will operate in accordance with CA9.1, but have separate commanders appointed by the King.
(3) The Kaiser and Prinz will each command standing Imperial armies, of the guideline size given in CA5.1. The Kaiser and Prinz can each give orders for their army during full Diet sessions. They are expected to personally command their own armies but can nominate a replacement commander at any time if they are too busy attending to civil matters. The Chancellor and the Kaiser/Prinz are expected to liase closely over the use of the deployment of the Kaiser/Prinz's army.

Electors, our House and Outremer borders are now simply too large to be adequately defended by single armies. The only issue is one of cost, but given that, according to CA5.1, Household armies need only be 7-10 regiments strong, I do not believe that will be insurmountable. Indeed, I suspect we could come close to implementing CA12.6 merely by redesignating some formations.

As to the Kaiser and Prinz's armies, I believe such forces are approprate for the offices. A Kaiser or Prinz should not have to sit idly by the Chancellor's table, waiting for @#$%^&!!!ing crumbs to fall before being able to act. Moreover, these two standing Imperial armies would give the Reich some flexibility in plugging any gaps in our defences created by the decision of Houses. As standing armies, they would also be immediately available for specific operations willed by the Diet or the Chancellor.

The Chancellor will still retain the power to raise and direct as many additional Imperial armies as he thinks fit.

FactionHeir

08-20-2007, 11:35

Quite well thought out, my brother. While it may be expensive, I believe the added security is well worth it and should also make all houses ecstatic about their new armies.
Consider it seconded.

OverKnight

08-20-2007, 11:37

I will second CA 12.6

TinCow

08-20-2007, 12:13

Jan, it is good to see that you have your priorities straight. No more than a day after you a promoted to the position of King of Outremer, likely for the remainder of your natural life, you move to increase the influence of that position. For the benefit of the rest of the electorate, let me edit your Amendment so that it may be a little bit more clear:

Charter Amendment 12.4:

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +6 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 4 points):
Duke: +3
Jan von Hamburg: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

As for Charter Amendment 12.5, this is yet another direct assault on the Ducal Houses! The lands you speak of belong exclusively to the Ducal Houses! They are not the possessions of Outremer because Outremer does not exist as anything more than an institution of management! If a Duke chooses not to send an Elector to Outremer, then that House's possessions in the East will be managed by the Duke, just as with all other Ducal lands.

By proposing this Amendment, you see to take away yet more Ducal control over Outremer, further making it its own House. Need I remind you, yet again, of what the Outremer Charter says?

2. The Kingdom of Outremer is an integral part of the Reich. It is not a fifth House.

Stop attempting to make Outremer a Fifth House! This is outrageous and I will not stand for it!

AussieGiant

08-20-2007, 13:13

While I have no real issue with the increase in influence of the King, I do believe the position should be rotated as is the Chancellors.

As for Lothars analysis of CA 12.5, then I would have to rescind my support as it is clear this change would sever the ties that created Outremer in the first place...Those ties are the very houses that sent men and money there to secure the region.

I'm inclined to ask Lord Zirn back to Austria and govern Damascus myself.

Sitting Arnold confers with his retinue on the matter

TinCow

08-20-2007, 13:29

A rotating position of King of Outremer would certainly make it less odious than it is now. If Jan is willing to amend Charter Amedment 12.4 to also make the position of King a single-term one, then I would be slightly more amendable to this course.

AussieGiant

08-20-2007, 13:41

I agree Lothar, but now of equal importance is the severing of ties between Outremer and the Reich.

Of course due to the situation in Austria you can all assume it would be Austria to first lose all contact with the work my Father did out there.

I'm going to speak to the Kaiser personally at this time.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 14:49

*sigh*

Lothar,

The day I let you edit one of my amendments, is the day Outremer freezes over. While you claim it is for "clarity" it is in actually to perpertrate fearmongering. I could have done the same with CA 11.4 last session when you raised Ducal influence. I could have put up an edited version of the CA with the words Lothar Steffen in place of Duke since you are heir to the Ducal throne. But that would have done nothing to further debate.

With regards to CA 12.4, this is for the benefit of all Kings who come after me. All that it ensures is that every King will have at least equal influence to his own Crusader Counts. I am sure everyone can admit that the King of Outremer should not have less influence than his own people. My legislation keeps the Dukes in a position of primacy. Lothar is just spreading fear and panic for his own political ends that are best known to only him.

As for CA 12.5, you are flat out wrong on the law Lothar. I hope this is an honest error and not an attempt to intentionaly mislead Duke Arnold. The Charter of Outremer is very clear on this matter. If there is not a Crusader Count, then the Crusader County is managed by the King of Outremer.

6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count.

There is no provision in law that allows for the Duke to manage any territory in Outremer. I already have to manage any territory without a count. All CA 12.5 does is allow me to place a count in a county regardless of house affiliation if house affiliation can not be met. CA 11.4 already limits the influence that Crusader Counts get so offering them settlements to manage is one of the only things I can do for them.

If you want these things, Lothar, you will just have to offer CA's to amend the Charter and not state things in the law that simply do not exist.

As for the length of my term, maybe there is some middle ground. I have a war to run and 10 years is too short to be changing the head of the army. But some are nervous at the lifetime appointment. To me, I am happy as long as there is a mechanism that allows for me to be removed. There is already such a mechanism. Perhaps someone will want to pass something that strengthens that mechanism. Otherwise, I am an agent of the Kaiser. Appointed by him to oversee, what is, an Imperial project. Yes the houses contribute, but one house does not do this on its own. It takes all four houses. Which requires coordination. Which makes it Imperial and that puts it under the pervue of the Kaiser.

gibsonsg91921

08-20-2007, 15:05

I concur with my brother's revised Edict. The reason I did not specify which army was so any army, Franconian, Austrian, or a combination of both, could move to attack.

TinCow

08-20-2007, 15:12

Then clearly there is a conflict in the law, which we will have to resolve. Four of Outremer's provinces actively belong to the Ducal Houses.

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia.

And Dukes govern settlements that are part of their House but not controlled by a Count:

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

Since there appears to be a conflict in the law, I shall use my personal edict to rectify it.

Charter Amendment 12.7: The Charter of Outremer (Charter Amendment 9.1) shall be amended by striking the following line:
The King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count.

Do I need to once again emphasize that Outremer is not a House?! The Charter of Outremer itself specifically says so. We must get away from this preposterous notion of giving Outremer more and more privileges at every Diet session! Outremer exists to manage the Reich's lands in the East, nothing more.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 15:15

*puts hand to forehead*

There is no conflict in the law Lothar. You just don't like the law.

Look, I have a war to run. I can't be running to the Dukes asking them to please build my barracks. I was picked to coordinate the defense of Outremer and that is what I will do. I need to be able to build in crusader counties without counts. Your Ducal micromanagment of the war effort in Outremer is going to get my men killed.

If you want me to manage the Reich's lands in the East then let me manage and do not pass a preposterous law that will be a micromanagement nightmare.

Furthermore, your CA does not provide for the Duke to manage the building in those counties. It merely ensures that no one will be able to build there if I have no count. Crusader Counts are not Counts. Therefore law 4.5 has no effect in Outremer.

TinCow

08-20-2007, 15:23

The is entirely incorrect, Jan. As I have alreay shown you, all Outremer provinces belong to the Ducal Houses and to the Emperor. There is not a single province in Outremer that is outside of the Ducal Houses or the Reich. As that is the situation, the Dukes and the Emperor are fully authorized by law to manage them if Counts are not appointed to them.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 15:27

And you will need to point to the specific part of the law that says that Dukes manage Outremer Counties. There is no law. You are just making this stuff up. The Charter of Outremer is quite specific on this issue. If your CA passes, it merely ensures that no one can build in a county without a crusader count. Even the Kaiser can't direct the building of these settlements. It is left to Crusader Counts and then to me if there isn't one. All CA 12.5 does is allow me to put a count in a county if I need him there. I will give house preference but I can not have ungoverned counties.

TinCow

08-20-2007, 15:31

Need I again state that there are no provinces that 'belong' to Outremer! Damascus is part of Austria, Adana is part of Bavaria, Acre is part of Swabia, Aleppo is part of Franconia, and Antioch and Edessa belong to the Emperor. The Charter of Outremer specifically states this! You are attempting to completely remove these provinces from the control of their rightful owners.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 15:39

No, I am attempting to follow the Charter. Yes, these provinces belong to those that you say it belongs to. But, the Charter creates the position of King to manage these collection of provinces. And the Kaiser picked me to be that manager. The Dukes never had control of what is built in Outremer. If you wish that to change, then you will need to pass legislation that changes it and stop pretending that such a law exists when it clear does not.

I ask you again. Point to the specific law that gives Dukes the right to direct building in Outremer.

Tamur

08-20-2007, 15:39

*Fritz von Kastilien enters the Diet chamber glowering. He sits at the Franconian table for a moment, then jumps up*

My apologies to my esteemed colleagues here for my absence the past two days. My castle seems to have taken some water in the recent rains. And good help is hard to find!

*Fritz pounds the table before him with his fist, then slowly raises his head again as he composes himself*

To use a term of the ancient ancestors of Stettin... Hwaet!

As for the legislation proposed thus far:

I agree with Ansehelm that Vilnius needs to come under the Reich's control. And I am sure that the combination of the Ducal army and the FHA, under Péter's control, will be sufficient to destroy any opposition. However, I must ask Captain von Runstede if he would agree to the following emendations?

Edict 12.4

Dependent on 12.2 passing, the fortress of Vilnius will be attacked by the FHA by the time the Teutonic Army decides to come back. They will meet in Vilnius and if one of the armies has problems reaching it's goals it will be supported by the other. This also makes it possible for the FHA to return and protect Breslau or Thorn.

Edict 12.5
Dependent on 12.2 passing, if Vilnius proves too dangerous and comes under constant attack, taking too much of the Reich's resources, military buildings will be destroyed and the city will be left.

I have more to say, but will wait for the good sir to approve or deny these changes.

TinCow

08-20-2007, 15:44

Jan, you really must clear the sand out of your ears when you show up in Rome. We are not some Eastern hovel where cleanliness can be neglected. Every single province in Outremer belongs to a Ducal House or the the Emperor. The Charter clearly states that the Dukes and the Emperor manage all settlements that belong to them and which do not have a Count. By striking the conflicting portion of the Charter of Outremer, my amendment distinctly and legally restores the rights of the Dukes and the Emperor under the Charter. This is not a complex legal rule, so do your best to not look the fool in public, word will get back to the Mongols.

AussieGiant

08-20-2007, 15:46

Standing to make his point clear, the intensity of the Duke begins to grow.

Lets be clear gentlemen!!

Outremer is meant to be an administrative body to allow semi independent governing of the HOUSE lands out there. That was the intention.

The Kingdom of Outremer is an integral part of the Reich. It is not a fifth House.

The fact that until this time there have always been House Representatives to goven the Ducal holdings doesn't not remove the fact that they are implicitely allocated to the House by name.

The whole point of the charter was to equally represent the four houses in the east and to give every house a stake in the region!!

All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia. Antioch will be the capital of Outremer and an Imperial province governed by the King of Outremer. Edessa will also be an Imperial province, governed by a Count chosen by the King of Outremer. The Crusading Count for a settlement must come from the appropriate House.

THAT IS ALL FACT.

As far as I'm concerned if my House is unable to supply a crusader count for Damscus then it is Austrian by decree. As the crusader count must come from the House it is assigned to then if that is not fulfilled, it does not then magically pass onto someone else outside Austria as I am Duke of the House.

There are technicalites as per $%#^ing usual, BUT!!!!! Common sense must prevail in the spirit of what was written.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 15:47

And again, you can not point to the specific law that bestows the power that you claim it does. Until you do so, your argument is meaningless.

TinCow

08-20-2007, 15:48

Dear God, Jan. Here is your bloody law, which I have already quoted to you:

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

GeneralHankerchief

08-20-2007, 15:50

Jens Hummel:

For Chrissake, here we go with these ridiculous technicalities again!

Answer me these questions, Jan:

1. Do the Dukes not rule over their Houses?

2. Does the Charter not give away specific provinces to specific Houses?

3. Therefore, do the Dukes not control provinces which are specifically assigned to their Houses?

And CA 12.2 still needs a seconder!

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 15:51

Yes, but Crusader Counts are not Counts. For your purposes Lothar, the law would have to read,

Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Crusader Count.

We already seperate Count and Crusader Count in law so this should be a no-brainer. Dukes govern settlements not governed by Counts. The King governs settlements not governed by Crusader Counts. Very simple. I hope this clears that up and we can move on.

AussieGiant

08-20-2007, 15:52

Jan,

The fact that...

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

...does not appear in the same section of the legislation as the Outremer Charter does not invalidate it's authority.

You yourself said you understood my point earlier about the House's and what they gave to create Outremer. The Charter is there to ensure no house is left unrepresented. If there is not count then by right the Duke of that house is able to send you build orders...surely this can be understood if people allow themselves to see it?

Arnold stops at this point...mentally seems to repreat what Jan just said

Are you $^£^$ing serious Jan!!!?? The word "Crusader" allows all the other wording to magically become invalid??!!

Christ on the Cross, if Kaiser Henry could hear that jem I'm sure he would just pack it all in and move to Timbaktu!!

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 15:54

Yes, but there is no law providing for Dukes to build in Outremer. If people here wish it, then they must present a CA that changes the law.

TinCow

08-20-2007, 15:54

*Lothar's eyes goes wide and his face gets dark red.*

A Crusader Count is not a Count?! What the hell is he then, a bloody Crusader Chicken?!

This is the man that the Kaiser has appointed to be King of Outremer?! We might as well abandon the East right now!

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 15:57

Lothar, ad hominum attacks do little to strengthen your argument.

Crusader Counts and Counts are different by law. Even you should be able to see that.

AussieGiant

08-20-2007, 16:01

Jan,

If that's your defence, then you've got to admit the word count is not in your favour.

There are about four, far larger and more detailed pieces of legislation which pre-empt your Crusader Count defence before it's even relevant.

Good luck.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 16:06

Count is a legal definition. It is a title bestowed on an elector by a Duke.

Crusader Count is also a legal definition. It is a title bestowed on an elector by a King.

These definitions are given power from the Charter. A law that applies to one legal definition does not automatically apply to the other. They are seperate.

The Charter of Outremer empowers the Kaiser to select a King who manages those provinces which are laid out in the Charter. The King bestows the title of Crusader Count as he sees fit. These Crusader Counts manage the settlement that they are given. Any settlements in Outremer not managed by a Crusader Count, are managed by the King, according to the Outremer Charter.

Lothar has basically invented an issue where there was none. And Duke Arnold has allowed himself to be fooled by Lothar's "legal obfuscating", to borrow a term.

If Duke's wish to build in Outremer, then someone needs to change the law. Otherwise, we are all just running in place here.

Stuperman

08-20-2007, 16:09

Jan, you confuse me, you claim that you need control over build ques in the outremer, then claim that you can't have any ungoverned counties, thses are contridictory in my mind.

Unless you feel that it is your right as king to issue orders to your counts?

As for your excuse that you have a war to fight, and we should just shut up, we all have wars to fight.

the Sicilians and Spanish in the South, the Hungarians, Poles and Russians in the East and North, the Danes in the North, th French in the west.

Lothar's creative editing of your proposed CA was to show that the legislation in completely self serving, there is only one king in all the HRE and it woudl seem that you are appointed for life.

Your position as King is lower than that of Dukes, yet you feel it is in your right to take control of thier lands, and talk down to much more expierenced men. As "manager" of the Outremer, it is your job to work with the Dukes and the Chancellor to co-ordinate the defence, and economic policies of the outremer.

And as you seem so stuck up on it, can you show me specificallywhere it says that the king of the outremer can set build ques for the whole of the outremer, at his leisure.

You do realize that your title as King is in name only, and can be stripped as easly as if has been given.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 16:14

Duke Gerhard,

I wish to give these counties to Crusader Counts. Yes I can set the build queues myself. But, I rather give it to men who leave their homes and help me with our mission out here.

My claim that I have a war to fight was to claim that I need to not be micr-managed. I do not wish anyone to "shut up".

There is only one King but there will be more after me. My CA is just to ensure that they have the same influence as their own Crusader Counts. It is an attempt to balance out the scales. Not weigh them in my favor.

As for the law that gives me the power to set build queues,

6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count.

As for my position, I am an agent of the Kaiser. Any problems with me, you can take to myself or him.

Kagemusha

08-20-2007, 16:15

Helmut von Hamburg, enters the diet for the first time with his loyal watch dog, Jan, which Helmut has named after his little brother.

" Greetings! I thought to come and visit the Diet myself, before my little brother takes all the titles on the Reich! Im not here to propose edicts,but to claim tasks worth doing. I think that i have been completely left out on everything and thanks, much to my little brothers vicious plans to get the oldest son of Fredericus Von Hamburg to be remained as unknown man,while he has himself already usurped himself as King of Outremer! I demand an county atleast immediately. This miss treatment of my person is outrage!"

Helmut sits down,staring at his brother viciously.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 16:17

Helmut!

Jan grins at the sight of his brother.

Duke Ansehelm has given you our father's lands in Hamburg. As for usurping, the Kaiser named me. I did not usurp anything.

Stig

08-20-2007, 16:20

Gert von Runstede: Herr Jan, you have to remember that in your own wording you have never been a count, why would the Kaiser name someone King of the Outremer while that person hasn't even ever have been a count?

And when did you follow me Herr Helmut? I thought Duke Ansehelm send me on my own.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 16:22

Gert von Runstede,

You will have to ask the Kaiser why he appointed me. It is his right to name whomever he wishes.

TinCow

08-20-2007, 16:23

*Lothar raises an eyebrow.*

But Jan, Clause 6 of the Outremer states that the "King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count." It does not say Crusader Count, and as you have so clearly stated, Crusader Counts and Counts are not the same thing. If you are correct, there are no regular Counts in Outremer, thus the King should be setting the build queues for ALL of Outremer provinces, and Crusader Counts get to manage nothing.

Of course, this confusion would make more sense if you would only acknowledge that Crusader Counts and Counts are the same for legal purposes of province management.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 16:27

Kagemusha

08-20-2007, 16:29

Helmut Von Hamburg

"I broke camp immediately,when i heard about my little brother being named as the King of Outremer. I thank mein Duke, for Hamburg, apparently i didnt get the title handed to me before i dispatched from Russia. Nevertheless, i would like to appeal to Kaiser, for not making such a large mistake of appointing my brother to an task,which his experience is not enough to manage it."

Helmut sits down and starts groaning to his servants,for not getting the information about countship of Hamburg.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 16:30

Helmut,

Since the Kaiser is not here, you will have to write him a letter.

TinCow

08-20-2007, 16:31

And "Count" is a legal efficiency that refers to all Counts of the Reich, whether they are normal Counts, Crusader Counts, Rainbow Horseshoe Counts, or Terrible Rabid Alpine Chicken Counts. A Count is a Count, I don't care how many words you put in front of it!

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 16:33

Yes but the law cares. The law makes that distinction however much you wish it were not so. If you believe there is a dispute in the law, then appeal to the Kaiser to arbitrate a rules dispute. Or maybe the Prince can do it in the Kaiser's absence.

Either way, this issue seems to be unresolvable without legislation or an arbitration. Provide one or both of those or move on.

Kagemusha

08-20-2007, 16:34

"Well my dear brother. Arent there anyone here who represents the Kaiser when he is away? Or cant the Kaiser of Holy Roman empire afford clerk´s to write down what the nobles are saying?"

Helmut sits down mumbling to himself

"Incompetent, the lot of you."

Ferret

08-20-2007, 16:35

Helmut, although Jan may not seem like the ideal choice for his position I have strong faith in him and the Kaiser obviously shares this faith. Jan has fought exceptionally well in the Holy Land since his arrival and has been a valuable asset to the Kingdom of Outremer. It would not be wise to contest his position as I can think of no better candidate for the job.

AussieGiant

08-20-2007, 16:35

Right, that's just %^$@ing it!!

Will someone second CA 12.2!!!??

We clearly need it.

Jan I agree with the wording about setting build queue's if there is no COUNT.

Can someone shed light on how a noble becomes a Crusader Count in order to qualify as a House representative in Outremer!!??

In my mind if there is no Crusader Count to govern the province then fine, the King, as the legislation wording states, should then set the queue. What I will not have is the ability of the King to assign someone else as Governor of a province that is MINE.
It can sit vacant until a Duke is prepared to agree with one of his nobles to go out to Outremer as the House representative.

That should solve this I believe!! At least then the Dukes are able to control and NEVER lose their inherent right to govern their specific holding in Outremer.

Can that be a possible solution?

GeneralHankerchief

08-20-2007, 16:36

Jens Hummel:

Helmut, I quite agree. Incidentally, I believe that there is a piece of legislation, CA 12.2, that still needs seconding that I believe meshes with your opinion perfectly...

AussieGiant

08-20-2007, 16:38

Yes, but clause 6 first uses the title Crusader Count and then shortens it for effeciency. Since it already named the title, that title then applies to the whole clause. This is common legal procedure.

Any more attempts to create an issue out of thin air or can we move on to other matters?

That is the weakest thing I have heard given your attempt at distinguishing between the two as a defence.

Nice try, but no dice. You want to live by technicalities Jan then you can die by technicalities.

Something my own lawyers have come to love in me.

gibsonsg91921

08-20-2007, 16:40

For goodness sake! Let's get to the more important issues, like not getting killed by our enemies! I second CA 12.2!

I don't care of the wording or how we destroy Vilnius, just that the city is taken and the worms inside are murdered.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 16:41

Duke Arnold,

Your position is far more sensible than Lothars. As for your question as to how someone becomes a Crusader Count, the Charter empowers me to bestow the title each Diet. I bestow the title according to House accept with Edessa.

If you disagree with CA 12.5, then simply vote against it. Or don't vote at all. But at least your not contesting my right to set build queues in Outremer.

I just disagree with your wording that I set build queues that are not occupied by "counts" because that is not supported in the Outremer Charter. Again, I welcome having this issue resolved by arbitration.

TinCow

08-20-2007, 16:43

I agree, let us vote on this issue an be done with it. I request that two Electors second Charter Amendment 12.7 and that everyone else votes for it, to ensure that the proper intent of Outremer is restored.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 16:45

Lothar, your CA will still not provide for Dukes to build in Outremer. Since this is a dispute with the rules, I suggest we have the Kaiser or the Prince rule on it.

Now whats next to talk about?

TinCow

08-20-2007, 16:49

Very well, Jan. I was attempting to keep the Amendment minimal to prevent from adding yet another rule to the Charter. On the off chance that any Electors can actually follow your incoherent logic, I shall alter the Amendment to make it more blatant.

Charter Amendment 12.7: Clause 6 of the Charter of Outremer (Charter Amendment 9.1) shall be amended as follows:

6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The Dukes and the Emperor will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count which is allocated to their control.

AussieGiant

08-20-2007, 16:50

King Jan,

That is what I am saying.

I wont support CA 12.5, as it is going to sever ties with the House's and in affect goes against the whole theme of the Charter in my view.

For example:

If there is no count for you to allocate to the House specified Province of Damascus, then it is vacant and you set the queue as the legislation states.

Your wording allows you to put another noble from another house in Damascus and that is completely unlawful as it is my Province as Duke of Austria.

That is why CA 12.5 should not go through.

CA 12.4, I can live with, but with a limited time on the appointment. The Kaiser could re confirm the postion every 20 years for example.

Please note the original CA had the position as a 10 year appointment re set at the beginning of each Diet session by the Kaiser.

That's about the final take I am having on this subject.

FactionHeir

08-20-2007, 16:51

Hans shakes his head at the deliberations

Good lords,
Instead of bashing each other's heads in, how about finding some kind of middle ground that everyone can be happy with?

I do not think Jan would have a problem with amending 12.5 to read that in the case that no governor can be found as crusader count for an outremer region, the Duke whose house the settlement is allocated to may chose to either let the King settle the queues or allow him to appoint a governor from another house.

Kagemusha

08-20-2007, 16:51

"Well it seems that Von Kastillien did the deed. I dont think i have anything to add, specially becouse my lazy servants cant provide me with enough information about anything these days. I will come back to vote and then get back to Russia."

Helmut leaves the Diet. As he reaches the stairs outside the building,he violently pushes his head scribe straight down the stairs and then charges his watch dog, Jan against the mangled scribe. Once he reaches the poor man Helmut says with a determined voice.

" Make me look ridiculous once more, maggot and i will have you skinned alive."

Tamur

08-20-2007, 16:56

*Fritz rises to his feet again*

von Runstede, I note you have not answered my question regarding the Edicts proposed by my brother Ansehelm. On the other hand, I can see why in the midst of this flood of pre-litigation.

Gentlemen, let me sum up what I am seeing here.

We have endless legal arguments due, in most part, to the appointment of my cousin Jan to the Kingship of Outremer against the wishes of our beloved comrade King Salier.

We have more proposals on laws than on actions in this Diet, a situation that will lead to the weakening of the Empire as we squabble over technicalities and let our armies suffer for it.

*Fritz pauses and closes his eyes for a moment, takes a breath, then launches into a fist-waving tirade*

And we have an Emperor who sits in Eastern luxury, basking in the smoke of who knows what Eastern herbs, relieving himself in the embrace of who knows what Byzantine women! I cannot think of a worse situation all the way back to Marcus Antonius and that wench Cleopatra!

Brother he may be, but his indolence in Byzantium with the infidels *Fritz shudders* gives me full rights to denounce his wicked ways!

*Fritz seats himself heavily, glowers around the room for a moment, then resumes looking at his feet*

AussieGiant

08-20-2007, 16:56

Shaking his head with a large grin at the departing figure of Helmut Arnold continues unfazed after Fritz's small tantrum

I second CA 12.7.

I would certainly be more favourable to Jan's CA if he was to change the wording to what Hans just suggested, but it must remove the ability of the King to appoint Counts from outside the House it is allocated to.

Looking at Fritz with a look of pained amazement

"Denounce his wisked ways"....where do you come up with such Bollocks Fritz?

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 17:00

Lothar,

I am pleased to see that you are finally admitting that you were wrong. Your need to put forward a CA shows how weak your initial argument was. I will of course vote against what would be a micro-management nightmare but I applaud that you are finally following the law instead of just making stuff up. I am still more than willing to have the rules dispute arbitrated by the Kaiser or Prince is your CA does not pass. Or, they could rule now and make your need for a CA moot. Either way, I am satisified that we are getting around to what we can do legally instead of what we wish to do in our dreams.

Hans,

The Outremer Charter already provides for me to set build queues in crusader counties without crusader counts. CA 12.5 would not change that. Even if it passes, I still need the people. Without the people, I still set the build queues.

OOC: To be fair to Ituralde, do we even know IC that the Kaiser is passed out stoned on the lap of a hooker? :laugh4:

FactionHeir

08-20-2007, 17:02

Is that not the entire point of the alternate wording I provided? To give Dukes a choice over whether they wish to see their county given to some noble from another house rather than having the King manage it in case no crusader count from their house can be found? It is would be fair for both parties and certainly appeal to a larger majority of this diet.

Stuperman

08-20-2007, 17:04

I will second CA 12.7 as well, I do not wish to have Bavarian Land ruled by an Imperial apointee. This does not mean that I will not listen to the needs of the KOTO, I look foreward to working with him to ensure the safety of Jerusalem.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 17:04

Hans,

Damn that is a sensible idea. I fully support it as a compromise. Now, to amend the CA, would I have to send it back to the Outremer chambers for new pre-seconds? I'm thinking of just using my one personal edict to do it.

AussieGiant

08-20-2007, 17:06

Hans that is not my concern.

The abillity for the King to set build queue's is already set.

What I am not agreeing with is the wording being changed to allow the King to allocate the Austrian House Province of Damascus to anyone else apart from an Austrian Noble. If there is none available then it is to remain vacant and the King can decide what to build.

THAT is why your wording is not good enough for me.

FactionHeir

08-20-2007, 17:06

I do not think amending a proposal needs re-seconding by precedent.

Now, it seems that we have all talked sense and can return to the usual diet business, yes?
It has come to my attention that there is no CA calling for Ajaccio and Cagliari's incorporation into the empire. I assume our Bavarian friends would wish to fix this before the end of the diet?

//[edit]

Duke Arnold, that is exactly what my amendment to CA 12.5 would mean: The Duke may choose if he will allow the King to appoint another or rather the King simply leave it vacant. What this changes from the status-quo is that the county would not remain vacant indefinitely if the Duke wishes to have another rule it.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 17:10

Duke Arnold,

With Hans's suggestion, you the Duke would have one of two choices regarding Damascus if there is no Austrian Crusader Count.

1.) Let me set the build queues as I wish.

2.) Let me assign a non-Austrian crusader count.

If you do not want a non-Austrian in control of Outremer, then just choose option 1. This allows me a little more flexibility while giving the Dukes more say in how their Ducal territories in Outremer are managed.

What do you think about this?

Stig

08-20-2007, 17:11

Gert:
I have not heard any question you asked me Herr Fritz, this Diet is going to fast for someone with my old age.

Stuperman

08-20-2007, 17:11

I believe that such a CA has been properly prepared, just it has yet to be presented to the Diet.

Jan, you could always work with Arnold to set a build que that both of you are happy with, I don't believe that those are the only 2 option.

Tamur

08-20-2007, 17:17

*Fritz looks up from his reverie to stare at Arnold for a moment, then notes Gert's mouth moving but makes a sign that he can't hear over the clamour. Fritz quickly inks a note and sends it to Gert with a page. Then he looks again at Arnold, slowly shakes his head and resumes reading something large and weighty*

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 17:22

Duke Gerhard,

True, but I am going by what the law would provide. There would need to be "someone" in charge of the build queue. I will not build by committee. According to this CA, the build queue will be goverened by, a house Crusader Count, me, or a non-house Crusader Count. No me/Duke decisions. I'll take suggestions but no province is governed by more than one person at a single time.

Stuperman

08-20-2007, 17:31

Well, It seems like it's Jan's way or the highway....

TinCow

08-20-2007, 17:33

It is a good thing that the Reich has invested heavily in road production.

FactionHeir

08-20-2007, 17:34

In the light of these events, I wish to withdraw my secondment of charter amendment 12.5 as it has become rather...pointless.

Stuperman

08-20-2007, 17:37

Charter Amendment 12.8: Ajaccio and Cagliari are incorporated into the Reich. The Chancellor is directed to trade Cagliari to any foe if it can bring about a peace between our nations

Proposed: Lothar Steffen
Seconded: Mathais Steffen, Gerhard Steffen

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 17:43

Duke Gerhard and Hans,

I am confused, no province in the Reich has more than one person controlling the build queue. While I would work with the Duke in question. It would still have to be up to one person to decide what gets built. Hans's amendment to my CA would provide for the Duke to choose whether it be governed by myself or a non-house crusader count if there is no house crusader count. I am not sure where the "my way or hi-way" comes in. And I am sad that Hans has felt it necessary to withdraw his support of something he himself suggested. I guess running for Chancellor is awfully important to him.

FactionHeir

08-20-2007, 17:56

Jan,

The point is that with my amendment to your idea of 12.5, it would have created a middle ground. However, you must understand that if your attitude towards other esteemed members of this diet is so hostile that you prevent its passage even after my attempt to aid you in salvaging it, then I cannot continue to stand behind it as a supporter. This has little to do with the race, but more with being cordial and explaining matters with a cool head. I do not think anyone here would appreciate being talked to in the tone in which you addressed the Dukes earlier.

Privateerkev

08-20-2007, 18:01

*Shrug*

It is done. CA 12.5 is unseconded and I instruct the scribes to make clear that it is so. Now that is behind us so let us continue on to other matters.

OOC: My shortness in my posting has much more to do with the fact that I am in great pain and at work. :laugh4:

OverKnight

08-20-2007, 22:33

A wild-eyed ink stained Scribe wanders into the Diet and speaks in a strained voice.

My goods lords, the list of legislation has been updated (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1643291&postcount=12).

Please, no more, I have children. When will it end?

Mercy!

He runs screaming.

TinCow

08-20-2007, 23:26

Thank you, Scribe. Will you do one last service and alter CA 12.7 so that the last "is" is replaced with "are"? I do not want to be responsible for further butchering the grammar in the Charter.

Warmaster Horus

08-20-2007, 23:28

Are we done with the Charter Amendments? Thanks to that poor scribe, we can clearly see something wrong.
That something is the amount of edicts compared to the Charter Amendments.
There are 3 edicts, and 8 CAs.

Does anyone else find that ... abnormal?

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 00:22

I hereby officially rescind CA 12.4 and CA 12.5.

I will instead use my one personal edict to put out on the floor:

Charter Amendment 12.9:

Clause 3.10 is amended to read as follows (changes in bold):

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +6 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 4 points):
Duke: +3
King: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.

Charter Amendment 11.6 is amended to read as follows (changes in strikeout):

Charter Amendment 11.6: The position of King of Outremer is appointed by the emperor. This appointment lasts for the duration of the emperors reign or the Kings lifetime, whichever is shorter. The King of Outremer is permitted to resign, if the emperor is willing to accept the resignation, upon which a new King is appointed by the emperor. If the King of Outremer is deemed incapable of the assignment, he may be impeached by the emperor and 2 Dukes.

This legislation ensures that the King will have as much influence as his Crusader Counts while making sure that it is not a guaranteed lifetime appointment. With the stricken out language gone, the old legislation that is still in the Charter will enact. Which means the rest of the stuff in CA 11.6 stays but I will be confirmed by the Kaiser at every Diet. The rest of CA 11.6 is good legislation and should not be removed. I will also remind all of you that making the King appointment a session-by-session appointment was the will of the Kaiser when he made his "rule dispute" ruling the other night. This legislation codifies that wish into law.

I hope this compromise will prove more palatable to all involved. I welcome any questions any of you may have about this.

OverKnight

08-21-2007, 00:39

Cries of anguish can be heard from the Scribes section as Matthias speaks.

I will second CA 12.9

econ21

08-21-2007, 01:03

Elberhard: I will second Charter Amendment 12.9.

And then perhaps the screaming inside my head will stop...

Please make it stop...

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 01:07

Thank you Ebelhard but may I ask,

Why is your head screaming?

Do you need a drink? The tavern is just down the street.

GeneralHankerchief

08-21-2007, 01:16

Jens Hummel:

If CA 12.2 is passed then you won't have to worry about this problem in the future.

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 01:18

CA 12.2 will help stop your head from screaming? No offense Jens but I prefer beer for that.

TinCow

08-21-2007, 01:20

*Lothar raises an eyebrow yet again.*

Well, well. It seems some sense has finally come to Outremer. I will not deny that the King of Outremer should be given more authority than the common Crusader Count. An influence of 2 seems proper to me, as it is above his subordinates, yet below the Dukes themselves. This is as it should be. Furthermore, the abolishment of the appointment for life shows that Jan is truly considering the issue from an objective stance and not exclusively from personal interest.

Therefore I shall also second Charter Amendment 12.9.

*Lothar nods curtly to Jan von Hamburg.*

King Jan, let it not be said that I am totally inflexible.

That said, I still do urge the Diet to vote in favor of Charter Amendment 12.7. As we seem intent to rectify some of the legal conundrums that have abounded since the creation of Outremer, it would be good to finally establish that the Outremer provinces truly are part of the Houses to which they were originally given. Charter Amendment 12.7 ensures that the intent behind the creation of Outremer is upheld.

GeneralHankerchief

08-21-2007, 01:21

Jens Hummel:

Or we could eliminate the source of the friggin' screaming altogether.

AussieGiant

08-21-2007, 01:32

Arnold

With that I have one more comment.

BEER!!!

Bring me and this entire Chamber gallons of beer!!!

I will cover the cost, just bring it now!!!

With that a stream of page men enter carrying every conceivable type of alcohol known to mankind.

And before anyone says there is a tavern down the road, keep in mind I don't #%^$$#ing care, and I couldn't make it that far without a drink anyway!!

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 01:38

Count Lothar,

I appreciate your words. I still am not in favor of CA 12.7 since I wish to have the ability to keep setting build queues when there are no counts, which the King has always had. I prefer that the Dukes send me Crusader Counts if they can spare them. If there are plenty of counts, then I will have no extra build queues to worry about. But, it is going for a vote and we will see what happens. If it does pass, I wish to speak to every Duke/Steward present so we can work out a building plan for Outremer.

That being said, these CA's already have their seconds but I will voice my support. I support CA 12.6 and CA 12.8. Everyone could use two armies to cover our growing fronts. And with the sacrifices Bavaria made to take Ajaccio, I think it deserves to be incorporated into the Reich.

Jan is interrupted by Duke Arnold's cry for beer.

Beer!?! Whoo hoo!

Jan grabs a mug

TinCow

08-21-2007, 02:04

King Jan, I would like to point out that if CA 12.7 passes, you will not need to consult with the Dukes or the Kaiser on build queues unless there are insufficient Crusader Counts to govern all of the cities in Outremer. As it stands, you have assigned all provinces to a Crusader Count except Edessa. Therefore the only possible area of outside influence would be the Kaiser's ability to choose what is built in the city and that city alone. Even that would be eliminated if you could attract another Elector to go East.

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 02:16

Count Lothar,

You are absolutely correct. But, I wish to get the Dukes involved right away. What if we have a sudden death in battle of a Crusader Count? I would rather have the Dukes work with me before hand and have them up to speed on Outremer affairs than try to get them up to speed at the last minute. The Dukes have stated that they want to be more involved with Outremer affairs. Four of the provinces are their land after all. And I think that would be better for everyone regardless if CA 12.7 passes or not. A meeting after the Diet would allow me to show them maps and unit dispositions. They can track the progress of the war effort. A lot of men and money is going into Outremer. It is only fair to show them what becomes of it. We keep telling them that the war with the Mongols is dire and important. But, to them, it is so far away. Including them more will help them understand why we are there. If they feel they have a stake, they will be happier with this whole situation.

While it is I who am in command out there, that doesn't mean I do not value the Dukes' opinion.

AussieGiant

08-21-2007, 02:30

King Jan,

It wont take me very long to provide you with directions regarding Damascus should Lord Zirn not recover...god forbid that!!

I already manage four provinces myself. You are the adminsitrator and King of the region.

All would ask in the event there is no Count from Austria in Outremer is a briefing on the situation and a recommendation. You would get your response from me is short order as part of my overall adminsitrative responsibilities.

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 02:39

Duke Arnold,

I appreciate you laying out what you would want and need regarding this matter. I figure it would be better to provide an opportunity to get more information and have you simply disregard what you do not want to know at your whim. Better to provide too much information than too little. But now that I know your preferred administrative model, I will keep my reports to you to be short and curt in the event that there is no Austrian Crusader Count.

GeneralHankerchief

08-21-2007, 04:32

Jens Hummel:

Please, feel free to to keep your speeches in the Diet short and curt too, von Hamburg!

*He bursts out laughing for several minutes after this. The scent of alcohol is wafting throughout the Diet chambers.*

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 04:39

Jan smells alcohol.

A beer would be nice right now.

Ignoramus

08-21-2007, 05:52

Wolfgang Hummel stands and addresses the Diet.

Mein electors, I will not delay you for long. But I would fain speak.

Many of you have rightly condemned me for mein actions in the Levant. However, I ask to not be tarred with the same brush as mein father, Chancellor Hummel.

I intend to fully listen to the Dukes if elected, and offend no House intentionally. Of course, I shall rule the gut of the Reich overall, but I will not favour or spurn any particular House.

Concerning foreign policy, I would take the sword to the Sicilians. They are weak and spread out, and crippling them now would save us much trouble later. They are also fighting the Moors, who are currently preventing the Spanish from crossing the strait of Gibraltar and thus into Africa.

The French are able to be held, thanks to the strenuous efforts of Duke Frederich of Swabia, and King Davy of England. The Scottish king also has landed on the continent, and I propose that we ally ourselves with the Scots.

Edict 12.4: "The Scots are to be approached with an offer of an alliance. No more than 5,000 florins may be exchanged in order to bring this about."

If I am elected, no direct invasion of Spain shall take place. The Iberian peninsular is too far away at this present time to mount an effective campaign.

I also intend to strengthen the eastern frontier against the Poles and Russians. Extra men, if needed, shall be speedily sent to Thorn where the Franconians shall decide where they be sent.

In Italy, I shall take steps to secure our lucrative cities of Venice, Genoa, Milan, and Florence, from Sicilian attack. Garrisons shall be strengthened, and walls kept in a defensible state.

In Saxony, His Holiness allowing, I shall launch excursions north right into the heart of Denmark. I will construct a fort blocking the shallows from Denmark into the land of Swedes, and blockade the Danish ports.

In the Outremer, I will coordinate greatly with the King and his counts to effectively manage the Mongol invasion. They are the ones who know the lie of the land, and are most able to defeat the Mongols.

I will also take steps to prevent our allies, the Portuguese, from succumbing to either the French or Spanish. Such allies are rare, and cannot afford to be abandoned.

I will also maintain an effective intelligence service, so that the Reich need not be suprised by any enemy. Spies shall be sent into all our enemies' lands that we may assess their strength and their weak points.

Finally, I will also build up our navies in both the Mediterranean and Baltic seas. We must not allow ourselves to be defeated at sea.

Thank you, mein electors, for your time.

Wolfgang bows to the Kaiser and resumes his seat.

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 06:09

Jan walks in and kind of just looks at Wolfgang with an amused smirk.

As a matter of book keeping, Acre no longer has a Crusader Count. Count Hans has expressed his wish to return to the Reich as soon as the war with the Mongols is stabilized.

AussieGiant

08-21-2007, 09:48

Shaking his head in wonderment, the Duke of Austria leans foward locking a deathly gaze on Wolfgang

You there!!!??

The one over there talking about running for Chancellor!!

Pointing at Wolfgang directly

Are you forgetting something or do you simply want me to ensure you lose any chance you may have of giving a good account of yourself in this election!!??

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 13:26

Jan hears Duke Arnold. Curious, he goes over the transcript of Wolfgang's manifesto. Jan breaks out in laughter.

Wow, it would indeed be difficult to get elected when you ignore roughly a quarter of the Reich in your Election planks.

Tamur

08-21-2007, 14:00

*A somber Fritz von Kastilien stands slowly*

Though discussion has died down, I must say a word on CA 12.2, in the hope of influencing some of the Electors present.

Although I agree in spirit with this motion, surely it will open up a huge new field for exactly what it is attempting to legislate against -- confusing the issue.

*Fritz holds up a piece of parchment and squints at it*

Who decides what legal matters are "simple" and which are complex? Who decides what "over-complicating" is, and when does it become "excessively over-complicating"?

Is any question against any law going to be found "excessively over-complicating"? Or are only certain laws complex enough to avoid this law's restrictions? Which ones? Shall we then pass more resolutions marking some laws as simple and others as not simple? And how will we contain the inevitably heated and dreadful discussions that arise from such decisions?

These are all rhetorical questions at this point, my friends, and none of us need answer them at this time. But if CA 12.2 passes, they will no longer be rhetorical questions. They will be questions this body has to deal with. And I for one would rather spend my time on other pursuits.

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 14:32

These are indeed good questions Count Fritz. I suspect one way to deal with the legislation, if it passes, would be to say "I'm sorry" after every single mention of legal matters. The law would say you would be banned until apologizing so that is one way around that.

*chuckles*

GeneralHankerchief

08-21-2007, 14:37

Jens Hummel:

I shall ensure that this is the last time you ever make fun of one of my legal proposals, sir.

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 14:41

You really need to grow a thicker skin Count Jens. Having your legislation nitpicked apart, disected, and ridiculed is part of our process. It happens to all of us to varying degrees.

And I wasn't totally joking. We do need to figure out how to deal with CA 12.2 if it passes.

FactionHeir

08-21-2007, 14:44

While I would not support 12.2 due to its vagueness, I personally would support its inherent message.

GeneralHankerchief

08-21-2007, 14:47

Jens Hummel:

Legislation is not ridiculed, for that is a most unchivalrous thing to do, especially for one who is the King of Outremer. People simply explain the faults of it but they do not ridicule it. It is clear that you simply have it in for me, and this I will remember.

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 14:47

Count Hans,

I agree with you that its inherent message is good. But, as legislation, it is next to useless. Without the mechanics to describe what is to be punished and how, it will just kind of sit there. The way it is worded, the work-around I mentioned should be enough to get past it.

Count Jens,

Remember what you wish. I do not "have it in for you". I remember when I was young, outspoken, and brash in the Diet. It seems like it was only yesterday.... Wait, it was only yesterday.

Anyways, despite what you may think, nothing you said has actually hurt me. What you have said may not have presented you in the best light to the rest of the Diet however. I only hope you don't direct your misplaced aggression towards someone less patient than myself.

Cecil XIX

08-21-2007, 17:02

Jens if you cannot handle the mild and justified critiscism of your legislation made by King Jan and Count Hans then you are not ready to participate in this Diet. Just explain to them why they're wrong, don't threaten them.

Tamur

08-21-2007, 17:23

*Fritz sighs heavily, and stands again*

I believe, friends, that the gentlemen *he nods at Jens* was not reacting to a criticism of his legislation. I heard him say nothing at all rebutting my words. Rather, he was reacting to the tone in which Jan chose to express himself. There is an obvious difference between criticism and ridicule. Criticism is centred on discussion of specific problems. Ridicule involves less... concrete, ah, details. I chose one route, Jan chose the other.

It would obviously be better if we simply let the matter drop and concentrated on discussion of the legislation rather than discussion of the Electors.

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 17:26

Count Fritz,

You speak wisdom my cousin. I will try to improve the discourse of the Diet by embracing healthy criticism and avoiding ridicule.

*nods his head to the Count out of respect*

I will also take this oppurtunity to publicly apologize to Count Jens for ridiculing his legislation. I will endeavor to threat him and his ideas with the respect they both deserve.

Stuperman

08-21-2007, 17:47

I will second edict 12.4 (the scottish alliance one), Although I have no strong feelings either way, I believe that all legislation deserves to be voted upon by the diet.

I don't think that we should risk our english alliance to accomidate the scots though.

TinCow

08-21-2007, 17:58

I will follow my father's lead and also second Edict 12.4, if only to ensure that it is put to the vote.

econ21

08-21-2007, 20:24

Elberhard: All right, the polls are up.

I must express gratitude again to the industrious scribes of Matthias Steffen (Overknight :bow:) for keeping us up to date with the proposed legislation. All mistakes are, of course, his - I mean, mine.

This full session of the Diet is closed although Electors are free to continue to listen to the sound of their own voices as usual.

Stig

08-21-2007, 23:20

Message from Ansehelm von Kastillien, as literally spoken out by him

Meine Herren
I am extremely !@#$&% off by how Outremer thinks it can do business. It's King thinks it's an !@#$&% house and that he can take away nobles from proper Duchies. Let it be !@#$&% well known to him that Outremer is not a House and can and will never be one. Whatever he wants he is not taking away nobles from Franconia, whatever he wishes. A Franconian does not need to show his !@#$&% obedience to the Outremer, as it's merely a tool, and it's King should !@#$&% well realise that. A Franconian is a Franconian, not a citizen of the Outremer, I suggest the King of the Outremer stops thinking he has a proper house, let him !@#$&% realise that he's part of the entire Reich, that he's not on his own.
I did not came this !@#$&% way to Moscow for nothing, I did this for Franconia, for the Reich. And what do you see while you are away, !@#$&% briberies by the King of the Outremer so he can get his way in things.
The late Kings would turn in their grave would they here this, they realised that their job was only minor, that they ran a part of the Reich, but that they had to realise that they had Duchies to keep in mind. This King thinks he is above all Duchies, that he is a !@#$&% Duke.

I repeat, I did not fight my entire !@#$&% way to Moscow to see some low trick being pulled off.
I suggest that the King realises this, if he doesn't he might lose the support of one of the Reichs Duchies.

Duke Ansehelm, !@#$&% annoyed

Privateerkev

08-21-2007, 23:42

After hearing the message, Jan looks puzzled.

I am surprised that Duke Ansehelm thinks I somehow stole his Counts. I am not even sure how I would be able to do that. It is true, I did contact a couple of Franconians. They are family after all. But they were already intent on voting the way they voted. Once I saw that they already were going to vote a certain way, I wished them luck and bid them farewell. I don't even have much to offer them.

There is one exception to this. And that is Dieter. I did specifically ask Dieter to vote a certain way. He is a Crusader Count and I did not mind telling him my opinion on certain legislation. Dieter has made his own choice to be in Outremer. I did not steal him. He can leave Outremer whenever he wishes as can any person out there. Yes, while they are out there, I do ask certain things of people. But once they are off my shores, my influence ends rather abruptly.

Yes, I did vote for the Vilnius edict so Peter would vote for CA 12.9. But, I am not sure how this is "stealing" people. Many of us "horse trade" our votes. As for offering Franconians anything, I can assure you that there are no new nobles coming to Outremer at this time. I wish this were not true, for I would love to have more people, but it is fact. I haven't even spoken to my brother since he appeared in the Diet so I have no idea why he voted the way he did.

I do not see Steward Hans, Duke Gerhard, or Duke Arnold having this problem with their Counts. Duke Ansehelm obviously did not convince his people to vote the way he wanted. Is this my fault? As for past Kings, I remember King Salier specifically asking us Crusader Counts to vote a certain way so its not some new idea.

I am sorry if Duke Ansehelm thinks that I am somehow usurping his Ducal authority but I do not even know how I can do that. Except for Dieter, I have no power to tell any Franconian to do anything. If I did, they would laugh at me and they should. This is a matter of free will, not coercion.

Stig

08-21-2007, 23:53

Gert von Runstede stands
If you, as Duke or King, for that matter, want support in your Ducal edicts you go to a Duke, you don't bribe just one person, as that is undermining Ducal power.
I for one thing know, by being close to the Duke, that this is not only because of this Diet Session, but also because of the fact that you consider yourself to be more loyal to the Outremer than Franconia. Even when you were just a CC.
Now as a King you can be that, but that also means you do not belong to the house of Franconia any longer.

I have said, what I can say. Duke Ansehelm is not here now to go in to your puny accusations, but if I were you I'd start preparing for his return instead of getting drunk in the Taverns of Rome. Being a King, or a Duke or a Kaiser, is a responsible job, one cannot drown himself in alcohol every night, one has to have priorities, called the Reich. They are more important than fun, that made me commander of Duke Ansehelms infantry force, I am not one of the most important men in the Teutonic Army because I decided to go drinking every night.

That all said, I'm leaving, some people do still wish to protect the Reich instead of going for their own personal glory

Gert von Runstede walks out of the Diet

Privateerkev

08-22-2007, 00:07

I did not bribe anyone. And I write these people because they are family just like you are. I might not be part of the house, but blood is blood. I am not sure how I am "undermining Ducal power" by writing my cousins. Your their Duke. Its your job to get them to do what you want. I can't do it for you.

As for drinking, thats my business. Heck, most of us here get plowed.

Warluster

08-22-2007, 00:53

Athalfwolf stands

I think he means, Jan, is that it is going to your head. That, can mean a few diffrent things in a way.

But please correct me if I am wrong, Duke Ansehelm, is not bribing a common thing in Rome?
Athalfwolf lets out a long laugh

Why, it is been a natraul thing in German and Roman politics for hundreds of years. And our, own buiness, is no longer our own, I think I can safely say King Jan. Anything you do from here on will be closely complained about.

Privateerkev

08-22-2007, 01:07

Count Athawolf,

I have endeavored to not let things go to my head and I pray the good Lord for strength in that struggle. Am I perfect in that? Far from it. But what I do still fail to see, is what I have done wrong in this specific matter. The Franconians did not vote exactly the way Anshehelm would have wished. How much of that can really be my fault? I can offer people all I want but they could just as simply refuse. I could coerce until I was blue in the face, but without any power in the Reich proper to back it up, I would just be spinning my wheels. I think people voted for their own reasons and I do not know what those were.

Thank you for provoking these thoughts my Count,

*Jan nods in respect*

AussieGiant

08-22-2007, 02:27

Arnold

Anshehelm is certainly a little upset it seems.

I'm wondering whether he is getting frustrated that the Dukes really have not ability to prevent their own Nobles from going to Outremer.

Privateerkev

08-22-2007, 03:30

Duke Arnold,

And the whole Diet as well,

Do you have any thoughts as how the Dukes could assign people to Outremer yet make it where they are not truly gone? As it stands now, it is voluntary as to whether a noble wishes to leave for Outremer. As long as the King and Chancellor agree, there is little the Duke can do. Once in Outremer, the Duke can not do anything about the noble already there. Sure they can take their county back and complain in here, but that is about it. Unless the King and Chancellor agree to send the noble back.

If there is one common theme I have heard this Diet, it is that the Dukes are feeling like they are losing control of something they should not. I have not been sensitive enough to this. So, I will ask now, how can we send people to Outremer, yet make sure they serve their own Duchy. As long as we have a mission in Outremer, there will be a need for people. But, this comes at the expense of the Duchies as Duke Arnold knows full well. For his House suffers because of the lack of manpower.

Will it require legislation? If so, what kind? Do we abandon the Outremer project? I think we shouldn't but if the project has lost support among the Duchies, then we probably should quit. We can only keep doing this if the Duchies continue to pour money and men into that land. I believe we do have a mission in Outremer. And I need the Duchies to help me. I have tried to pretend I could do this without you. But, I have basically been beating my head against the wall. So, I need to do something different. I need to convince all of you that this is all of our project. For the florins that pay for the armies in Outremer come from the farms in Franconia, the ports of Bavaria, the mines in Swabia, and merchants of Venice. The men that fill up the armies come from all over the Reich. Every noble that goes to Outremer, makes it a little harder for those who stay behind.

While I fully admit my own responsibility for this situation, according to the Diet records, this debate has been going on for a long time. If, we all no longer continue to believe that this is our project, then why are we doing this? We either need to agree to continue on, and find a way to do it that satisfies the Duchies, or leave. But the divisiveness that has grown out of this is only hurting us. I would rather we give up and come home than let this argument tear us apart.

The Kaiser has appointed me but then abandoned me to be his lightning rod for criticism. I think he had hoped that I would be a strong bulwark against Ducal power. Or, he just didn't care and spun a wheel of cards with Crusader Counts written on them so he could pick at random. I have no idea. I am tired of being a bulwark against Ducal power because I keep needing the Duchies to do anything at all. So, it seems that the wheel has turned. While I am honored to serve the Reich and the Lord, I had to say all of this. If the Kaiser disapproves of what I am saying, then he can have my resignation.

Thank you

AussieGiant

08-22-2007, 06:54

King Jan,

Your comments are timely as the recent round of discussions has certainly elicited a very strong response.

While I've never stopped anyone of my Nobles taking the Cross to Outremer, I believe there is no real way of preventing this.

As a noble that muist initially swear fealty to their Duke, the only recourse a Duke could take against a Count would be to clearly state that the Noble will be stripped of his titles (if bonded)...possibly removing the Knighting given to him by his Duke and ensuring that he would not be allowed back into the House until such time as the Duke is happy to do so.

Before ANYONE even thinks about legislation then FORGET IT.

My house and the Ducal authority given to me by my father is absolute in my mind when it comes to Austrian affairs of state. My only concern is with the running of my Duchy is if the Kaiser were to make comment.

Of course this is the most extreme "example" I can think of and no Duke has even gone close to taking any of these actions. This is main because to date the situation has worked well.

The simplest approach...AND I LIKE SIMPLE...is to have any Noble wishing to take up the Cross to Outremer first require the consent of the Duke in question. This would be fair and just in my view as the Duchy's are where all Nobles of the Reich originate from. No one swears fealty directly to the King of Outremer before that of their Duke.

I don’t think we should abandon Outremer. However, my comments concerning Outremer still hold. Outremer is not a House. It is, in fact, made up from all parts of the original Duchies.

I believe this concept should be strengthened with further wording.

The simply feudal hierarchy of Kaiser, Prinz, Duke, Count, Baron and Elector has been disrupted by the position of King. Therefore this position should be ratified further.

In my view most will agree that the position naturally between Dukes and Counts. The title could be changed and the relationship between the position of Dukes and Counts better explained.

One such mechanism is the approval of Dukes before a member of his house can take the Cross. This reinforces the hierarchy. And other such suggestions clarifying this would also be appropriate.

In the mean time common sense, agreement a civil discourse should get us through to the next Diet session on this topic.

With an evil glint in his eyes…the tone of Arnold voice goes from reasonable to chilling.

That is of course until someone pisses me off and tries to antagonise me. As a Duke, you can do that at your peril.

Privateerkev

08-22-2007, 07:19

Duke Arnold,

I like how you laid out the problem. There is more to it however. With regards to nobles giving permission, we have a fairly new situation where some of us come of age in Outremer. Like myself. I feel no particular attachment to home or my house. What about us? We are the bastard children of the Crusades that our fathers went on. We were raised by the King and when we come back to the Diet, we are rabble rousers and not used to the authority and decorum in Europe. Jens Hummel, Wolfgang Hummel, Dieter Bresch, and myself are all examples of nobles who grew up in a different world than the rest of you. None of us seem to feel any sort of special affinity for our Dukes. Yet, Outremer only exists because the Duchies pool their money together and send it off to us where we can raise armies and build structures.

See where there is starting to be conflict? The nobles no longer all come from the Reich proper. Please forgive me, but let me diverge into a history lesson. The first and second Crusades were led by men with strong personalities that passionately believed in the cause. Also, there were few nobles to stop them so the legislation legalizing all of this went through. Left behind were their children and adopted sons who grew up here in Germany and eventually rose in rank. All four Dukes are men of this sort. Men who have never been to Outremer and have had to deal with the manpower shortage that the Crusaders created. Naturally, all four Dukes give priority to their homelands that they have had to defend shorthanded for years and who can blame them.

In the meantime, the Crusaders for the most part grew old out there and passed on. But in doing so, they created a very different kind of territory. It is a territory that is not like the Duchies, yet only survives because of the Duchies. We need to find some way to bind the Duchies to Outremer closer together like we need to find some way to bind the children of the Crusaders to the children of those who stayed behind to defend the homeland closer together.

I like where you are going with regards to future legislation Duke Arnold. But you can see my concern about the statement that nobles need to get permission from their Dukes before coming to Outremer. We need to go deeper than that. The Crusaders were great men with a great mission but I do not think they gave careful thought as to what would become of the Reich or their project. Outremer as it is in law can not stand. It needs to be remade into a way that makes the Duchies feel that they are included. I am tired of all of the animosity between the King and the Dukes and the Counts and the Crusader Counts. We're all German. I do not know yet what to do about it because I need to know what all of the Duchies want. If even one Duchy is hesitant of the mission, then we need to rethink the whole thing. Because I do not believe it is fair to force others to sacrifice for something they do not see the benefit of.

Stig

08-22-2007, 08:26

Last message of Ansehelm von Kastillien

For !@#$&% sake Jan, do you know why you are so irritating? I do.
Some time ago you send me a message, to which I answered that I didn't want to send anymore men to the Outremer as it's now.
In an answer you asked for Fritz to be send.

How !@#$&% stupid are you? Has the alcohol gone up your brain already?
A man who drinks should not lead. You should not lead, you are not only a danger to yourself, but to the entire Reich.

You say that a Duke cannot stop men going to the Outremer, shall we bet on that?

And don't you even bother to reply, it's not like I even make the time to send a message back to you.

Privateerkev

08-22-2007, 08:28

This seems like a perfect time to ask you, Duke Ansehelm, what do you think of the Outremer mission? You certainly have voiced concerns. What do you want to do about it? Do you think the sacrifices that Franconia has made are worth it?

OverKnight

08-22-2007, 08:59

Matthias seems a bit alarmed about the rancor in the Diet.

In the past, a Duke has never forbidden one of his subjects from going to Outremer. In fact it was often encouraged, either because the Duke was a religious man or he wanted a supporter to have a little more influence due to being a Crusader Count. With the loss of that influence, now there is only piety to rely upon.

While a Duke can certainly use his power and influence to pressure a vassal to stay in Europe, I do not think he can force him to. There is nothing in the Charter that allows this. Usually the promise of a County or a threat of a loss of land or title would be enough. The choice has always been left to the individual. I went east when King Salier asked for a Bavarian to rule Adana. It was my choice, I was neither ordered to go or forbidden from doing so.

It is unfortunate that Duke Ansehelm has become hostile to Outremer, or at least it's King, as Franconia was a driving force in the creation of the Kingdom. Dietrich von Saxony, the first modern Duke of Franconia, was one of the first Crusaders, who marched the length of Europe and Asia Minor to reach the Holy Land, and he crushed a Jihad army along the way. Jonas von Mahren, who so recently left us, another Franconian, accompanied him as well. Fredericus von Hamburg stormed the walls of Damascus, bringing the Second Crusade to completion. It is a rich history, and one, I hope, that is not finished.

Times change, but I still feel the system established by Kaiser Henry can work. Most of us do not wish to abandon the Holy Land, and most of us do not wish a Fifth House formed, so what alternative is there? With the current system in place, we have weathered three Mongol invasions, an Egyptian seizure of Jerusalem and hostile neighbors, and the Kingdom thrives as well as the Duchies. I see no need to change the status quo.

AussieGiant

08-22-2007, 10:20

King Jan,

I have one simply answer to your issue.

EVERY NOBLE IN this Reich, even those born directly in Outremer, belong by birth to one of the four Houses. There is no escaping the Families and Lineage of this ancestral tradition.

Zirn's children will be born into the House of Austria, no matter that their Father has lived decades in Outremer and that his son and daughter may never physically see Austria in their life time.

They are still Austrian.

The scribes keep note of all the Noble Births in this Realm, and which houses they belong to.

This is an integral part of the Reich and will never change.

The only TWO people who are asked to put this aside is the Kaiser and the King of Outremer.

Privateerkev

08-22-2007, 16:01

Jan nods at the wisdom in Matthias's words. He then turns to address Duke Arnold.

Duke Arnold,

You are correct that nobles are born into a house and that can not be changed unless by the two exceptions you listed. But, what binds the noble to that house? Land, titles, family, friends, a purpose are all reasons to be loyal to your house. But, what if those things are not enough? I point to a rule in the Charter that is at the heart of the Outremer matter:

4.8 Dukes are expected to guide their families for the good for their Duchies. Members of a house do not have to follow their Dukes in terms of politics. However, the Duke can make players a Count by giving them a settlement (granting them +1 influence). Only the Duke of your House (not another Duke) can make you a Count. Houses will not be the only division in the Diet - chivalry, piety, strategy and other factors may also divide players. (OOC: I struck out the OOC part of the rule)

There is no law requiring us to actually listen to our Dukes. Yes, we can lose our land and become political lepers, but that is about it. In an extreme case, the Chancellor can decide to assign us a settlement for the next twenty years or wander the forests building watch towers. But we do not have to listen. And it is this rule in the charter that gives us the political space in Outremer to function. Once in Outremer, as long as you have the King's support, you can effectively leave your house like I did as Crusader Count. I think that is the real threat to the Duke's power and possibly behind some of the animosity they feel. Now, I do not want to eliminate rule 4.8 for it does show that we all have an element of free will. (OOC: I believe changing this rule would kill the game and make it very un-fun.)

But we need to find some way to reconcile this rule with the interests of the Dukes. Duke Ansehelm is upset that Franconians did not vote the way he wanted. But there is no rule stating that they had to vote the way he wanted. It is up to him to provide the "carrot and the stick" to influence behavior. My personal example of going rogue may have provided a precedent where Counts thought they could go their own way. But, the political space to go your own way has always been there because it is enshrined in rule 4.8.

This rule allows Outremer to function as a seperate political entity. But, Outremer can only survive with money and men from the Duchies. We need to find a way to make sure that Outremer and the Duchies can co-exist or the Outremer project is surely doomed.

I am afraid I leave us only with more questions for now but hopefully this can provoke more productive discussion.

Tamur

08-22-2007, 16:09

I can see Jan's point here. There is a difference in the new generation, that is certain. They have never set foot on our lovely mountains, or waded through the rich fields, plucking wheat at harvest time. They do not know the thrill of sailing through waves in the Nordsee, nor have they traveled from Hamburg to Rome and seen the huge expanse of the Reich.

However, I can also see Arnold's point. The Reich exists because of the strength of its families. Without them, Outremer is nothing. Though nobles may be born there, the strength of our troops comes from the homeland, and without a doubt the gold needed to maintain the place comes from our four houses. And without strong, united houses, the Reich ceases to exist.

I have not participated in the debate thus far, seeing how contentious it has been. However, perhaps once the Kaiser returns we can begin this discussion anew, without rancor. Without his word and influence, I feel that we will only run in circles.

That is, if the Kaiser returns from his vacation amongst the infidels...

Kagemusha

08-22-2007, 16:25

Helmut Von Hamburg enters the diet.

" I think that the issues with Outremer should be handled decisively. I am tired of people beating around the bushes. So here it is. I think we should get rid of the whole bloody outremer! Im sure that with my brother now as king of it, he will loose it anyway, but i say that lets save the lives of our countrymen and let the heathens fight each other over it. Its useless bit of desert that should be given back to the goat herders that live in there. Also we should bring papacy back to Europe by giving this very city to Holy father,who´s city this is. The Reich should be the leader of Europe. Europe,not some foreign far away lands that are completely useless.From Bosphorus to Gibraltar and from English channel to River Neva. Europe."

Helmut sits down with a challenging expression on his face.

AussieGiant

08-22-2007, 16:29

Arnold

Yet again I'm not going to get into a long drawn out $^#@$#ing debate.

Technically you are correct King Jan.

However, what is not written and what should NOT have to be written are two things, fealty and blood!!

Standing now, pacing the floor the Duke is full of intensity and energy. The very strength of will can be heard in each word and downward chopping motion of his points by his black mailed hand.

Any and every noble of Austria, and any other House for that matter, is that way by BLOOD or by FORMAL adoption involving swearing allegiance to his Duke.

I'm not going to explain this or get involved in it any further.

...you might need some type of wording but I don't.

Arnold now begins to addess the rest of the Chamber, pacing back and forth, his voice cutting through the space with vigour and steel.

This is a process that is centuries old and will never require codification on some piece of paper in some scribes library for it to be real.

If any NOBLE of Austria wishes to TEST your concept practically Jan, the they are more than welcome to try...

If anyone wants to FEEL my power as a Duke then I'm more than willing to show it.

This is not about rules and words, it about our Empire and how it is run...and that is NEVER going to be written down word for word. What more critical is it doesn't have to be.

If anyone wishes to rebel against their Duke, or attempt to go against the Feudal traditions this Empire is built on then I DARE anyone...to go...%T$#$%ing...right...ahead.

AM I CLEAR HEAR!!?

DO WE NEED TO LEARN FEALTY, BLOOD and what that means to this REICH NOW?!!??

And before there is another %%@^#ing round of debate...I'd like everyone to know, I AM VERY CLEAR on what all this means and I'd suggest EVERYONE else tries to understand this, rather than trying to NOT UNDERSTAND.