Phalanx

[EdwardL]

Have yall figured out a working phalanx model for EB2?

[Foot]

Nope, we are still working diligently on EB1. Our work on EB2 is minimal and we haven't looked at such issues as this yet.

Foot

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Hi EdwardL,
Fortunately, the useful R:TW phalanx feature remains, yet is not used, in M2:TW. Luckily, the same also applies to the Testudo, the Shield Wall and the Schiltron - somehow the CA either forgot to or did not want to remove them in their move upwards. Hope this helps, cheers!

[Krusader]

Hi EdwardL,
Fortunately, the useful R:TW phalanx feature remains, yet is not used, in M2:TW. Luckily, the same also applies to the Testudo, the Shield Wall and the Schiltron - somehow the CA forgot to remove them in their move upwards. Hope this helps, cheers!

Think you need to add animations though for them.

And the Shieldwall has animation in M2TW which we can use. (Swiss Pikemen, Obudshaer units use it)

[Boyar Son]

I think the weakness of the pike units is much better than RTW, in MTW2 theres a way to break through to them (a little from the front I mean).

in RTW they're too powerful from the front.

[Tellos Athenaios]

IMO they're not. You've got to apply tactics or be an Elite Cataphract (semi-nomad, not hellenistic one that is).

[CrownOfSwords]

I think they are alittle too weak in mtw2... we need something in between the impenatrable wall of RTW and the pussy phalanx of mtw2... Atleast in RTW it made you apply tactics for flanking and such but in mtw2 you can smash right through the formation with almost any unit..

[Conqueror]

Even the RTW phalanx can be beaten frontally if the attacking unit has crazy stats. I have experienced this in EB, where a rebelling city generated units of Thraikioi Peltastai with full experience (3 golden chevrons). Those were absolute monsters; they would force their way through the pikes of pezhetairoi, from the front, get to the middle of the formation and proceed to butcher the phalangites :sweatdrop:

[Bootsiuv]

I think the weakness of the pike units is much better than RTW, in MTW2 theres a way to break through to them (a little from the front I mean).

in RTW they're too powerful from the front.

I think they're just right in R:TW. They should be damn near impenetrable from the front....that's what flanking is all about. I don't have M2:TW, but if they're as weak as people say, I hope that can be fixed for EB2.

[EdwardL]

yeah the pike formations in MTW2 are utter garbage. I'm completely satisfied with phalanx balance in EB, as you can wade through some pike fronts with skilled troops, just as it should be. If they went with the MTW2 pike variant, they may as well not have phalanx units period, for lack of usefulness.

[Rundownloser]

Do the phalanx units in spread to the four corners when attacking like they do in RTW? Hopefully that's fixed.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Do the phalanx units in spread to the four corners when attacking like they do in RTW? Hopefully that's fixed.
I think that's fixed, but battles are over so quickly in M2TW, it is hard to tell.

[zonks32]

I found the Pikemen in MTW2 to be a waste, they broke ranks and used their swords as soon as someone hit them.
The stainless steel Mod 4.1 has improved the Pikemen alot, I think they removed their swords.
Cant wait for EB2, I like the graphics and features of MTW2, but prefer the Roman era.

[Mindaros]

Historically the macedonian pike-armed phalanx was almost invincible from the front when on level terrain. But it had serious difficulties when this was not the case, since on uneven terrain gaps would emerge in the line, so it had to be supported by lighter infantry to cover them. By exploiting these gaps, the Romans beat the Macedonians at the battle of Pydna. Hopefully both the strenghts and weaknesses of this formation will be present in this game!

[Wolfman]

I found the Pikemen in MTW2 to be a waste, they broke ranks and used their swords as soon as someone hit them.
The stainless steel Mod 4.1 has improved the Pikemen alot, I think they removed their swords.
Cant wait for EB2, I like the graphics and features of MTW2, but prefer the Roman era. In Dues lo Vult there was a modder by the name of Caligula who was able to fix this. But he hasn't updated his mod to the Newer Version of DLV. My pikes with this mod were very effective when attacked form the front.

[Perturabo]

I'm curious to know if there has been any sucess getting the Phalanx a backbone for the MTW2 engine? As amply stated previously the vanilla phalanx are 'somewhat' inadequate.

[General Appo]

I don´t think it´s true that the RTW phalanx is unbreakable from the front, at least not in EB. Once in a custom battle I gave myself 3 Pezhetairoi´s with full experience, armour and arms, and the enemy Giusim Aravim 'im Garzenim (Red Sea Light Infantry). I was defending a fort a so set up my guys around the gate in a box, hoping to catch the attackers in a deathzone between my pikes. They smash open the gate, rush through, and within seconds they have broken the phalanx facing the gate! They just smashed right through the pikes, albeit taking many casualties. It was only thanks to my flanking phalanxes that I survived, as they killed hundreds of arabians as they poured trough the gate, and eventually my enemy routed, and I retreated to the plaza. After some rather weak attempts to take the plaza from me I had won the day, but I had taken far greater casualites than expected. I had expected to take maybe just 2 or 3 casualties, inasted I lost well over 100 men, just because sheer wieght of the enemy allowed them to push through my phalanx. I have found this to happen several times in EB, that the phalanx simply can´t hold out against as long as the enemy applies enough pressure.

[Perturabo]

The lower order Phalanx are certainly not unbreakable from the front. It is however, very difficult. Really only Kataphractoi, FM bodyguard (generally Leader/Heir) and certain heavy infantry with high experience ratings can do it. Oddly enough, also the early KH short-pikemen (sorry, didn't have time to look in game for correct name) are one of the more effective units at doing this, particularly for the AI in towns. They form up into a narrow block and simply push through the pike formation quite easily.

Bar the last example in my opinion its really the way it should be. The phalanx are not invincible, but don't expect militia or light cavalry to do it from the front. That should be suicide to low level units and cost too much for even the elite units to try unless at last resort.

The phalanx in vanilla MTW2 on the other hand, are pathetic, unless micromanaged in which case they reach the 'unsatisfactory' rating :embarassed:

edit: Gateways into towns etc are a special case. with the amount of troops attempting to push through at the same time it is akin to a stampede at a football match. Don't expect any troops to handle that too well to be honest.

[Abokasee]

The MTW:2 pikemen are pathetic, the only worth while ones are, Scots noble pikemen, Adventuros (Not to be confused with Aventuriers, there French crossbowmen) Tercio Pikemen (Pushing it now slightly) Swiss Pikemen (If you can find them!)

Halberds are little better, I rarely use these, the only good ones are, Swiss Guard (But only papal states get them!) Janissary Heavy Infantry (Ok ok, they can't do the phalanx but they still kick ass) Voulgiers (If there upgrad as best you can and don't rout then they'll be ok) all the others will suck, I am Forgetting sword-staff militia because... there just not very good in phalanx

[antisocialmunky]

M2TW phalanxes suck so badly that its not even funny. Also, is there any way to revert it back to RTW style by changing hte animation, I don't want my pez looking forming up like the swiss.

[The Wicked]

Well the guys in Broken crecent have done a very good job with the pikemen except their stats which are worst than peasants

[mAIOR]

I'm getting scared about hearing people using FM to charge pikes from the front... I think that's suicidal. If you get unlucky your FM will die faster than you can tell.

I always flank the phalanxes in EB. In MTWII I don't bother. I just send some heavy infantry (like Varingian guard) and they'll shop them to poeces.


Cheers...

[Perturabo]

I'm getting scared about hearing people using FM to charge pikes from the front... I think that's suicidal. If you get unlucky your FM will die faster than you can tell.

I always flank the phalanxes in EB. In MTWII I don't bother. I just send some heavy infantry (like Varingian guard) and they'll shop them to poeces.


Cheers...

I said that it was possible, not that it was a good idea :laugh4:

[antisocialmunky]

That does bring up the point that FMs in M2TW are really into impaling themselves(must have been a trait inheritted from their fore fathers) and big phalanx armies might cause some issues.

[Perturabo]

The problem is of course, that without decent phalanx availablilty, all greek factions would become Romans, using heavy infantry i.e. Theurepori (sorry about lousy spelling) and cavalry almost entirely. Why waste time on broken phalanx that are likely to be expensive and useless?

I am however encouraged by reports of mods such as 'Broken Crescent' where phalanx are semi decent:2thumbsup: I have no doubt the excellent EB team will be able to replicate this and better.

Just a note to Abokasee who wrote:

"Halberds are little better, I rarely use these, the only good ones are, Swiss Guard (But only papal states get them!) Janissary Heavy Infantry (Ok ok, they can't do the phalanx but they still kick ass)"

In M2TW my favourite unit is the eastern Halberd Militia. Not quite as good as Janissary, obviously, but are easily and cheaply recruitable by Egypt even, and absolutely kick ass if used properly. Line them up in front of a crusader army, get the charge and all you will do for the rest of the battle is run down routers.
French Voulgiers aren't too bad either, but I used to wonder why they got slaughtered by cavalry all the time until I found out about the animation bug (they won't fight hand to hand with cavalry in older versions of the game, not sure about more recent patches). Not a bad game even in vanilla really, but some of the bugs are just incredible. Why CA, just WHY???

[Barbarian]

The way how pikemen move, fight and hold their spears is nowhere close to how phalanx should behave, even if you manage to make them more effective. Phalanx is much more than just a group of pikemen, and during the medieval times, thus also in the game, there is no such formation.
Unless you can get the formation back from RTW, phalanxes will be a great problem.

Everything else looks fine.
Cheers! Keep up the good work!
:2thumbsup:

[MiniMe]

Phalanx is much more than just a group of pikemen, and during the medieval times, thus also in the game, there is no such formation.

=) Good barbrian, please, don't underestimate the Renessainse period pikemen. They were fast, they were manouverable, they've faced foes much more dangerous than persian sparabara and won.
As for the game... vanilla MII is a disaster zone. however I advise everybody to try Point Blank's stats system named Real Combat (implemented is Stainless Steel). Now, his pikemen do act like pikemen and do the job

[Barbarian]

No, that was no what I meant. I never underestimated the Renaissance period pikemen, in fact, I was furious that they are so ineffective in M2: TW.
I also said:

even if you manage to make them more effective

So, I was talking more on the style of their fighting/marching.
Here you can see it clearly: pikemen in spearwall formation in M2:TW

https://img292.imageshack.us/img292/3069/pikemenqy8.jpg

And here, how they march with formation turned on:

https://img261.imageshack.us/img261/1892/pikesdq5.jpg

Now, compare to the ancient phalanx:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Phalanx.jpg/400px-Phalanx.jpg

1) The first and the third picture are not the same
2) The second picture should also look similar to the 3rd, because the ancient phalanx could also maintain the formation while marching slowly.

All pictures are correct, though, just the first two show the Renaissance style of fighting. Pikemen's first task was to stop the heavy cavalry, they were famed mostly for the fact that they were the first ones who could actually beat knights, and they only fought infantry when forced to do so.
Ancient phalanxes, however, were meant to be the backbone of many armies, so, they were prepared to fight infantry, especially another phalanx, as much as cavalry.

Now, a fight between 2 units of Renaissance pikemen would be resolved by stabbing each other with pikes, while infantry with short swords and small shields would try to get through the pikes and beat the pikemen in close combat.
This tactic is only close to Macedonian phalanx, as well as to any other phalanx, who wielded sarissa spears, thus using their spears as two-handed weapons.
But most of the other phalanxes also used shields and wielded spears as one-handed weapons. Is there such unit in M2?
Because of this, greek phalanx, for example, didn't work only with their spears. They used their shields and the pushing force from behind, which was created by all the unit working together, to make gaps in opponent phalanxes and gain victory. That means, they slowly moved forward, during the encounter, maintaining their spearwall. This is something that pikemen in M2: TW are not created for. They will only maintain the spearwall, which you see in the first picture, only when standing idly, thus being completely a defensive unit. And this fact has nothing to do with their secondary weapons.

[MidevalLoRd]

I think that there should be multiple forms of the phlanx and sheild wall and testidio ( sorry about spelling errors). There where many types of testido formations, like the wedge form, square form, and line form. That also applies with the phlanx. The sheild wall for the Romans though, should be made so the troops could easly and quickly be made to avoid missle fire when trying to seige a city.

Tell me if it sounds undoable lol.

[antisocialmunky]

One formation per unit.

[Bellum]

You'd think they'd have the sense to change that. It's really a silly limmitation.


I think that's fixed, but battles are over so quickly in M2TW, it is hard to tell.

Will you be able to fix that, even without editable lethality rates?

[mlc82]

IIRC, if you edit out the Pikemens' secondary weapon in MTW2 which takes away the swords they love to drop their pikes and use, they become damn-nearly invincible from the front.

M2 was truly shoddy out of the box, but modders have finally made it worth playing IMO. EB is still my favorite though, along with good old Medieval 1.

[Spotted Pig]

Is there any way to make it so formations in M2TW can cover the whole street in towns or so? I don't know if it's adressed in a patch or something, but you can't use phalanxes in the defense of a city the same way in M2TW as in RTW and it really bugs me.