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econ21
08-31-2007, 16:17
This thread is for all out of character discussion of the King of the Romans PBM - a HRE M2TW game. Please post in this thread if you have any queries or are unsure where to post.

The list of players and description of their avatars is maintained in the first post of the Chancellor and Governors thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383081&postcount=1



*************KOTR FAQ (UPDATED)**********************

The following paragraphs are designed to provide a simple understanding of the KOTR game and how it works. If anything in these paragraphs conflicts with one of the Game Rules, the Rule takes precedent.

Introduction

The general idea of the King of the Romans (KOTR) game is to allow a large group of players to determine the fate and development of the Holy Roman Empire in M2TW.

All players are “Electors” and will belong to one of the four Ducal Houses, Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). Eventually all players will be represented by an in-game character known as an “avatar.” This will typically be a general, but agents such as spies, priests or diplomats can be used as well upon request. It is not advisable to use an assassin as an avatar, as they have short life expectancies. If a player’s avatar gets into a battle, the player is expected to download the savegame and fight the battle.

Collectively, the Electors form the Imperial Diet. This has two functions - to elect a Chancellor and to create Edicts. The Chancellor will be the “reigning player” and control the game during his term in office. He will move all the generals, authorize any buildings from the build queues and train any units/agents. “Edicts” are laws that require the Chancellor to take specific actions. These can be very wide ranging in scope, but typically include such things as declaring war against another nation, seeking an alliance with a neutral country, or making peace with an enemy nation.

How to Join the Game

In order to join the game and get started, all you need to do is post in the current OOC thread that you would like to join and select one of the four Ducal Houses. You can then start participating in as much or as little detail as you wish. You will always be able to find the location of the relevant game threads in the second post of the Imperial Library (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383644&postcount=2).

The Ranks

KOTR attempts to mimic the feudal political system of medieval Europe. There are several ranks which each player can obtain, all of which come with their own benefit and responsibilities. If you wish to be highly involved, you can take on roles that require more work and responsibility. If you wish to simply observe and cast votes during election times, you will have to do very little. The extent of your involvement is entirely up to you.

Electors

All players, except the Emperor, are Electors, even if they hold another rank. It is the lowest rank in the game and all new players begin at this level. As an Elector, you may speak in the Imperial Diet, propose one Edict per session, vote on Edicts, and vote for Chancellor. All Electors belong to one of the Ducal Houses. You are not required to follow the orders or suggestions of your Duke, but he has the ability to bestow and remove ranks and privileges. If you have ambitions to rise to a higher rank, carefully consider whether your Duke will approve of your actions or not.

It is important to remember that you can only freely propose one personal Edict per Diet session. Choose an issue that is important to you and think very carefully about how you word it. A poorly worded or unimportant Edict can easily be ignored and forgotten. The only way you can propose more than one Edict per Diet session is through the approval of your Duke.

Electors will be provided with avatars on the basis of seniority; first come, first served. Generals are the most popular avatars and there may be a waiting period to obtain one. Agent avatars can usually be obtained quickly, but are not as complex and are not really suited for players who wish to rise to a higher rank. If you take a general as an avatar, you will be expected to fight any battles the avatar gets into, assuming he commands the army. You will have 48 hours in which to fight the battle after you are notified about it. When that time expires, the battle will be autoresolved, which could result in the death of your avatar. If you do not want to fight battles and there is a shortage of generals for avatars, please do not accept one. If you want an avatar but do not wish to fight, please consider using an agent.

Counts

Counts are prominent nobles within their Houses. The title of Count can be bestowed upon an Elector by his Duke. The role of Count is identical to that of an Elector with a general avatar, with a few exceptions.

A Count rules over one of the settlements (city or castle) in his Ducal House. The Count may, at his discretion, determine the order in which buildings are created in that settlement (build queue). The Chancellor is not required to build anything in the settlement, but if something is built, it must be in the order determined by the Count. The Count can also set the tax rate in his settlement, if it is a city. Counts gain a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. Counts can name an heir to take over their lands when they die. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar who is not already a Count.

There are two kinds of Counts: Freehold Counts and Bonded Counts. The difference is simple. Freehold Counts are the natural born sons of a Duke. They cannot be removed from control of their settlement, though the Duke can still name another as his heir if a Freehold Count displeases him. Bonded Counts are non-blood sons of a Duke, such as adoptees, sons-in-law, or anyone else who is not a natural born son. Bonded Counts can be stripped of their titles and lands at any time and for any reason by the Duke.

Dukes

Dukes are the heads of the Houses. They are figures of authority and they wield a great deal of power. There is only one Duke per House and a player can only become Duke by being the Duke’s heir at the time of his death. The role of Duke has many more powers than that of Count and Dukes gain a significant influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

The Duke rules over the capital of his House and all provinces which do not have a Count. Just like with a Count, the Duke can determine the build queue and tax rate for these settlements, but he can give orders for as many of them as he wishes. Dukes are also responsible for promoting and demoting Bonded Counts. A Duke may give any Elector with a general avatar the rank of Count, making them a Bonded Count. He may take away their lands at any time or switch their lands as he sees fit. The Duke can name an heir to take over as head of his House when he dies. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar, and it is recommended (though not necessary) that the person already be a Count.

The Duke is responsible for managing the affairs of his House and will often be dealing directly with the Chancellor and the Kaiser in high-level political discussions. Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. These can be the Duke’s own Edicts, but it is recommended that the Duke pick at least some of them from amongst the ‘extras’ his Electors want to put forward. It would be entirely appropriate for the Duke to use incentives and threats to ensure that the policies he wants get put forward. However, remember that even these extra Edict proposals must come pre-seconded by two members of his House. Don’t anger too many of your Electors or they could prevent you from using your extra Edict proposals!

Finally, the Duke controls the Household Army. The Household Army is the House’s personal military force and it is largely independent of outside control. The Duke is responsible for determining where it is garrisoned, who commands it, and what orders it is given. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Stewards

Stewards are Electors who are temporarily acting as Dukes. KOTR originally started with two Stewards, but for the most part, the title of Steward is a temporary one bestowed on a House Elector for a short time when a Duke is unavailable to fulfill his duties. In reality, this happens when a player who is a Duke is going on vacation or is otherwise going to be out-of-touch with the game for a short period of time.

Stewards have all of the powers of Dukes for the duration of their term, except that they cannot name an heir.

Emperor (Kaiser)

The Holy Roman Emperor is the supreme head of the Empire. It is a hereditary position. (Note: This is not historical, but there’s no way to change this in-game.) While the Emperor is theoretically the most powerful man in the entire Empire, in the KOTR game he plays a more subtle role. The Emperor gains an influence bonus equal to his authority during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

First, the Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet. It is his job to maintain order in the Diet and ensure that it runs smoothly. If there is a dispute about the Game Rules, the Emperor will make the final decision about the proper manner to follow the Rules.

Second, the Emperor does not belong to any of the Ducal Houses. Upon inheriting the throne, they leave their old House for good and lose any other titles (Elector, Count, Duke) that they might have. The Emperor is expected to act for the good of the Empire, rather than an individual House. While Emperors are expected to be impartial, they will certainly have strong opinions about what is best for the Empire. This may in turn result in them siding with Houses that support their decisions and working against Houses that they believe are hurting the Empire.

Third, Emperors allocate newly captured provinces to the Ducal Houses. When a province is captured, it comes under the direct control of the Emperor, who can control them in the same manner that the Dukes and the Counts can control their own lands. The Emperor may allocate any of his lands to any of the Ducal Houses. Once allocated, they cannot ever be returned to the Emperor. House provinces where are re-taken after being occupied by an enemy do not count as being “captured.”

Fourth, Emperors decide which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.

Finally, Emperors can automatically assume the position of Chancellor for the first term after they are crowned. This power is not subject to Diet vote and no one can run against them. However, the Emperor still has the limitations of Chancellor while in office, which means he can be impeached by the Diet in exceptional circumstances. Any further attempts by the Emperor to be Chancellor must go through the normal election process.

Prince (Prinz)

The Prince is a largely unimportant role, significant mainly because he is the heir to the throne and will become the next Emperor. Unlike the title of Emperor, the title of Prince is added in addition to any other titles the player holds. This gives the player a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. The Prince’s only duty is to preside over the Diet when the Emperor is absent.

There is no control over who becomes the new Prince once the current one assumes the throne. Like with the Emperor, this is a limitation imposed on us by the game itself. With luck, the role will only fall on players who seek to be active in the game. (*cross your fingers!*)

In practical terms, players must always remember that the Prince will inherit the throne, thus gaining power over the Houses through his ability to allocate newly conquered provinces. If you make an enemy of the Prince, your House might find itself smaller than the others when he becomes Emperor.

Chancellor

The position of Chancellor is without a doubt the most important and powerful one in KOTR. In game terms, the Chancellor is the person who actually plays the M2TW game. Unlike the other positions, you shouldn’t think of the Chancellor in the sense of what he can do, but rather what he cannot do. He is essentially playing the single player M2TW campaign with the following restrictions:

The Chancellor must obey the Game Rules and Edicts that have been passed by the Diet. Failure to do so can lead to impeachment by the Diet.

The Chancellor decides whether buildings are to be constructed in all settlements. If a settlement has a build queue from a Count, Duke, or Emperor, then he must build the items on that list in the order listed. However, he does not have to build anything at all if he does not want to, he only has to follow the build queue if he does decide to build something. If a settlement has no build queue for whatever reason, the Chancellor can build whatever he likes.

The Chancellor moves the armies and hands out saved games to be played by the appropriate generals. He can fight battles that his avatar is commanding whenever he wants without pause, but must give other players 48 hours to fight their battles. If a player exceeds the time limit or if the battle is lead by a Captain or a general that is not represented by a player, the battle must be autoresolved. The only exception to the Chancellor’s control over the armies are the Household Armies. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Essentially everything else is free game. If there isn’t a Rule or Edict about it, the Chancellor can do whatever he wants. The Chancellor’s term last for 10 game turns (20 game years), but he can run for re-election if he wishes. In recognition for his contributions, the Chancellor gets a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor, even after he leaves office.


***************KOTR GAME RULES**************

Game settings

*MT2TW with the 1.2 patch
*Hard campaigns, very hard battles.
*Large unit size.
*Battle timer on. Show CPU Moves, Manage all Settlements
Standard victory conditions (45 provinces, including Rome).

Charter Amendment 6.2: Medifix will no longer be used and in its stead, FactionHeir's trait and ancillary fixes will be implemented. He will also take full responsibility of any issues regarding these files, however unlikely these may be after extensive testing.

The only mod we will use is the trait and ancillary files created by factionheir, available to download at:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix127.zip

The readme is in the spoiler tags.


KOTRfixREADME.txt
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START OF README
-
Version 1.27 (12-08-2007)


This package contains 2 folders and 8 files, one of which is the readme you are currently reading.
I have included folders as this will make it easier for you to figure where a file is to go and prevent errors.
As you can see, one folder is named "data" and another one inside this data folder is labelled "text"
To install the fixes, simply extract/move the data folder directly from the package into your root medieval directory.
This means that after doing so, you should find following files in your medieval/data folder:
export_descr_character_traits.txt
export_descr_ancillaries.txt
export_descr_vnvs_enums.txt
export_descr_buildings.txt (OPTIONAL - PBM)
descr_campaign_db.xml (OPTIONAL - PBM)

And a folder in your data folder named "text"
Inside that folder, you should find:
export_ancillaries.txt.string.bin
export_VnVs.txt.strings.bin


You do not need to extract the readme, as this is purely informational for this installation only.

In short (for the impatient and to quick check):

-Extract data folder directly into medieval game directory.

-Make sure your medieval directory now has a data folder (already present before extracting) and a text folder within (usually not present before)

-Make sure the following files are found inside the data folder:
export_descr_character_traits.txt
export_descr_ancillaries.txt
export_descr_vnvs_enums.txt
export_descr_buildings.txt (OPTIONAL - PBM)
descr_campaign_db.xml (OPTIONAL - PBM)

-Make sure the following files are found inside the text folder:
export_ancillaries.txt.string.bin
export_VnVs.txt.strings.bin


Now to apply those fixes, you will need to run your medieval game exe using a shortcut or a bat file.
The target of said file should read similar to this:

D:\Medieval\medieval2.exe --io.file_first

Where "D:\Medieval\" varies depending on your installation but medieval2.exe --io.file_first should be constant.

If you encounter any issues with my fixes, please let me know via any means you feel necessary and I will investigate.
As per current version, there are no errors showing up in the medieval error log that are from these fixes.

Also note that those fixes work retroactively in any savegame and at the same time also allow a savegame to continue working without the fixes installed.
As such, it is perfectly safe to use and will not necessitate its continued usage once a game is started.
However as per Charter Amendment 6.2 for the KOTR PBM, this fix is to be used by the chancellor currently running the game.

I hope you enjoy the fixes and if you have problems or suggestions, please let me know.

FactionHeir

-
END OF README
-



At a later stage, we may use a mod to give the Forlorn Hope 2 hitpoints.

Charter Amendment CAE1.1: econ21 will be authorised to give AI factions extra florins; for example, by gifting them a lump sum every 10 turns or so.

To increase the difficulty, the AI will periodically be given money via the consol.

The console command to give 10000 florins to Hungary is:

add_money hungary, 10000

The list of major factions is:

england
france
spain
venice
sicily
milan
scotland
byzantium
russia
moors
turks
egypt
denmark
portugal
poland
hungary

The Mongols, Timurids and Aztecs may be included at a later stage.

Probably the best practice is to top up factions with less than 50k, at a rate of perhaps 10k per turn.



Hard restrictions on play: * only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.

How to play - detailed rules


1. The role of players.

1.1 Each player will roleplay an “elector” of the HRE. They must choose one of four noble houses to belong to. Players are born into a noble House. It is in their blood and cannot be changed. It is determined by which of the four lines on the family tree their avatar falls under (except for the three starter Generals, for whom it is determined by their initial geography). [Note - if avatars spawn disproportionately in certain Houses, Electors of one House may be offered an avatar of another, but then they effectively role-play a new character.]

Charter Amendment 9.2: Add to article 1.1:
In view of exceptional circumstances, the von Mahren family is allowed to join the House of Austria.

1.2 Over time, all players will be assigned an avatar (typically a general) by econ21 to represent them. They should roleplay their traits.

1.3 Players whose avatars lead in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved.

OOC Charter Amendment:
(a) Where there are multiple player controlled generals in a stack, then the player who plays out the battle is determined by who the computer designates is in command.
(b) An exception is that Household Armies (and the Army of Outremer) are always commanded by the designated Commander of said army.
(c) The commanding general may allow another player to fight a battle by mutual consent for OOC reasons.

1.4 Players whose avatars are Counts are entitled to set the taxes and build queue of that settlement. If anything is built in the settlement, it must be the first item on the build queue.
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 1: Amend 1.4 by adding: If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Chancellor can build what he likes. The Chancellor may upgrade a settlement at any time (ie upgrade the walls regardless of a build queue), unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the governor.

1.5 Each elector will periodically vote to elect a Chancellor (reigning player) of the HRE and on edicts to direct him.

1.6 Players are encouraged to stand for the post of Chancellor.

1.7 Players are encouraged to write in-character stories in the stories thread; to discuss matters of state in the Imperial Diet deliberations thread; to write-up battle reports; to PM each other in character for role-playing etc. [Note: when posting screenshots, we could keep them full size but put them under spoiler tags.]


2. The role of the Chancellor.

2.1 The Chancellor is much like the player of a solo M2TW campaign - he moves all the units and agents on the map; he decides all the buildings and which units/agents to be trained.

2.2 However, he delegates battles to the player whose general leads the HRE force. And he follows the build queues and tax policies of players with governors.

2.3 He also must obey Imperial edicts and the constitution (these rules) or face political consequences.

2.4 The Chancellor is elected every 10 turns. Incumbent Chancellors can run for re-election if they wish.

2.5 The Chancellor must appoint army commanders. He must maintain a list of who has what post and notify players if they are appointed or dismissed from a role.

2.6 Battles are only fought manually when commanded by a player controlled general who is an army commander. They are autoresolved in all other cases (e.g. captain-led armies).

Charter Amendment E2.1:
(a) If an Edict to impeach the Chancellor is passed with a 2/3 majority, he is removed from office immediately.
(b) After impeachment, a fresh election is held to elect a new Chancellor, although a Kaiser may also exercise his perogative to be Chancellor at that point.
(c) The Chancellor replacing an impeached Chancellor serves out the remainder of the impeached Chancellor's term.
(d) All edicts passed in the Diet that elected the impeached Chancellor remain valid, unless overturned by new Edicts at the Emergency Session that impeached him.
(e) An impeached chancellor is not granted the additional bonus to influence that an ex-chancellor would normally be given.

Charter Amendment 11.5: All cities must have their maximum amount of free upkeep militia within their walls all times, except when the militia is used to fight armies observed to be within the boundaries of their province.


3. The role of the Imperial Diet

3.1. The Imperial Diet will meet in session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each session lasts 3 days of real time.

3.2. At each session, nobles can propose edicts. These require two seconders to be put to the vote. Edicts are laws that direct what the Chancellor should do.

Charter Ammendment 5.2: Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. In the case where there are only 1 or 2 electors in total in a Duke's House, a House edict may still be put forward to the diet requiring only the number of possible seconding electors in the House as seconders.

3.3. Any declaration of war must be authorised by an Imperial edict. The Chancellor or any Duke is empowered to declare war on a non-allied army entering its lands.

Charter Amendment 10.2:
(a) No settlement will be captured without an Edict authorising its acquisition in advance.
(b) Captured settlements will be abandoned or given away unless, at the next Diet session, a Charter Amendment incorporates them formally as part of the Reich.
(c) The 33 existing provinces of the Reich are exempt from (a) and (b).
(d) This amendment overrides the constitutional right of Household Armies to conquer one neighbouring province.
Proposed: Kaiser Henry
Seconded: Conrad Salier, Ansehelm von Kastilien

Charter Amendment 12.1: The province of Bran is to be incorporated formally into the Holy Roman Empire.

Charter Amendment 12.8: Ajaccio and Cagliari are to be incorporated into the Reich. The Chancellor is directed to trade Cagliari to any foe if it can bring about a peace between our nations.

*3.4. The rules of the game can be changed by a Noble Charter Amendments (2/3 majority required) except those marked with a *.

3.5. Tied edicts fail. If contradictory edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority.

3.6. Edicts can only last for 10 turns.

3.7. Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

*3.8. The Chancellor can be impeached and removed from office by a 2/3 majority of the Imperial Diet.

3.9. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final. The Prince can preside in the absence of the Emperor. The Emperor can call an emergency session of the Imperial Diet - freeze the game - at will.
Charter Amendment 8.2: In addition to the Kaiser, an Emergency Session of the Diet may be called by the Prinz, or if three of the four House leaders (Dukes or Stewards) agree to do so.

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +6 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 4 points):
Duke: +3
King: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.

Charter Amendment 6.7: Any decision that would lead to the excommunication of the Reich has to be authorized by a Diet vote, requiring a 2/3 majority. In the event of a conflict, this Amendment supercedes Rule 3.3 and Charter Amendment 5.1.


4. The role of the four houses - Dukes and Counts

4.1 There will be four houses representing the four main branches of the family tree: Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). At the start of the game, Prince Henry is Duke of Swabia and Leopold is Duke of Austria. The Dukes of Franconia and Bavaria have not yet been spawned (they will be the two males who take positions under the Emperor in the family tree).

4.2 Bavaria and Franconia have no Duke yet, so there are Stewards to act in their place until them. Until there is a Duke, they receive the +2 influence of a Duke.

Charter Amendment 3.1: Stewards may bestow the rank of Count on nobles of their House. This Amendment does not give Stewards any other Ducal power, it does not give Stewards additional Influence, nor does it allow Stewards to be Counts themselves.

The Stewards themselves are not Counts. Like Otto in Innsbruck, they are just soldiers, self-made men of lesser station [think Denethor in Lord of the Rings]. They could be rewarded by being made a Count by their Duke when he spawns, though. And they could marry into the Royal line, potentially becoming the Duke themselves.

4.3 The Emperor controls the initial allocation of settlements (e.g. upon conquest). At the start of the game, we have:

Frankfurt - capital of Franconia, home of the Duke (TBC)
Stafen - capital of Swabia, home of the Duke (Prince Henry)
Nuremburg - capital of Bavaria, home of the Duke (TBC)
Innsbruck - second city of Bavaria
Vienna - capital of Austria, home of the Duke (Leopold)
Bologna - is not assigned to any house

4.4 Dukes can then grant a settlement to a player, making him Count of that settlement. The settlements remain nominally within the relevant Duchy. There are no Counts at the start of the game. Capitals of a House need no Counts and cannot be given to them - they belong to the Duke (or his Steward). The Emperor could allocate Bologna to a House at any time, but after that, it will permanently belong to that House. There is an expectation that Franconia will extend north, Swabia west, Bavaria south and Austria east but this should not be followed too rigidly - e.g. the Emperor does not have to give Bologna to Bavaria.

[Note: It is expected that settlements will not be gifted lightly by the Emperor and by Dukes/Stewards - they should be regarded as precious rewards. There is no particular value to settlements in themselves, however. Avatars will be assigned according to the family tree, so more settlements does not mean more family members in a House - nor does it raise influence (beyond the one-off +1 for being a Count). A player cannot be the Count of more than one settlement. Dukes can have more than one settlement not dispersed to counts (and given the ratio of settlements to generals in a game, this is inevitable), but this provides no particular benefits.]

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

4.6 Counts who are not the natural sons of a Duke (e.g. adoptees and sons in law) may be lose their titles at the whim of the Duke. They are referred to as bonded Counts and are expected to act according to the wishes of their Duke. Natural sons of a Duke may not lose their settlements - they are referred to as freehold Counts.

4.7 Dukes and Counts should name a successor, who will take over their titles and settlements when they die. If no successor is named, the oldest natural son inherits, (if none, oldest adopted son; if none again, then the oldest son-in-law).
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 2: Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.

4.8 Dukes are expected to guide their families for the good for their Duchies. Members of a house do not have to follow their Dukes in terms of politics. However, the Duke can make players a Count by giving them a settlement (granting them +1 influence). Only the Duke of your House (not another Duke) can make you a Count. Houses will not be the only division in the Diet - chivalry, piety, strategy and other factors may also divide players.

Charter Amendment 6.3: Dukes may bestow the title of Count on Electors without avatars.


5 The role of the Emperor and Prince

5.1 The Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet as in 3.9. He is the "chairman" of the HRE, as opposed to the Chancellor who is the "chief executive". He will keep order in the Diet and try to make things run smoothly.

5.2 Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.

5.3 The Emperor can allocate settlements to one of the Four Houses.

5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes.
Charter Amendment 11.7: The section of the Charter which currently reads "5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes" will be changed to the following: 5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes. However, if a rules dispute directly involves the Emperor, the four Dukes of the Realm (or their appointed deputies) will gather to assist the Emperor in clarifying the dispute. A simple vote among the Dukes would decide the dispute, with the Emperor having the tie-breaking vote.

5.5 The Prince succeeds the Emperor and can deputise in his absence.

Charter Amendment 11.2:The Prince is appointed by the Emperor upon his ascension to the throne. Should a Prince die a new heir has to be appointed immediately.[/i]

Charter Amendment 11.1: Whenever a large dispute arises over the legitamacy of one's succesion to a position of high power (Kaiser, King of Outremer, or Dukedom), a council shall be set forth to discuss the events and vote on who shal succede. Should the position of Kaiser be questioned, the four Dukes and the King of Outremer shall decide who is to become Kaiser. Should a Dukedom or the King of Outremer be under dispute, those not directly involved in the dispute shall be part of the council. In order for the council to be formed, at least one quarter of the voting power in the Reich is needed to for the council to be formed. Regarding the dukes, half of the voting period within the house is needed as the same with the King of Outremer which requires half of the crusader's votes.

5.6 Emperors do not belong to factions - if crowned, they leave their House and - if Duke - are replaced by their chosen successor. They are expected to act for the good of the Empire and be impartial, above petty regional politics.

5.7 The Emperor decides which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.


6. Armies and Battles

Rules 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 have been removed.

6.4 For field armies of seven or more units (including the general), the Chancellor must appoint an “army commander”. The army commander must be a “knight”. Army commanders are appointed for the duration of the Imperial Diet session (10 turn intervals). The post is expected to be rotating. Army commanders can decide what to do with prisoners after battle. They can be dismissed by Chancellors, but must be informed of this.

6.5 Avatars who take part in battles may be promoted to “knights” by the army commander. Typically, this will involve the avatar’s bodyguard fighting honourably in a battle. The Emperor, Prince and four Dukes begin the game knighted.

6.6 The title of Field Marshall shall be given to the commanders of the Household Armies for the duration of their command.
Charter Amendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed.

Charter Amendment 5.1: Each Duchy shall have a Household Army with which to defend its territories. The Household Army will be governed by the following clauses:

1) The Household Army may not be removed from the House’s provinces without the permission of the Duke.
2) The Duke will determine where the Household Army is to be garrisoned. This location can be changed at any time, so long as the Duke informs the Chancellor of the move. The Chancellor will not remove the Household Army from the garrison without the Duke’s permission, except as required to fulfill Clause 4.
3) The Duke will determine who commands the Household Army.
4) At the beginning of each Diet session the Duke may assign general orders to the Household Army, which are to be carried out by the Chancellor. Between Diet sessions, any additional orders submitted by Dukes are to be implemented only at the Chancellor's discretion. The Duke may select one of the following Orders: (1) attack any rebel force in House territory, (2) attack any hostile force in House territory, including other factions, (3) attack any foreign or rebel army in House territory, including neutral (but not allied or crusading) factions, (4) temporary assignment to another House, (5) assignment to offensive duties. If Order (4) is chosen, the Duke may determine the time limit of the temporary assignment and the commanding general, but all other decisions are made by the Duke of the receiving house. When the time limit expires, the Household Army must be immediately returned to House lands, no matter what other circumstances occur, unless the Duke agrees otherwise. If Order (5) is chosen, the Duke may specify an enemy settlement or army as the objective and the commanding general. The settlement or army must be in a province that borders the House and the Reich must already be at war with the target. All other decisions are made by the Chancellor. The Duke may recall the Household Army from offensive duties at any time and for any reason.
5) The Household Army will consist of a minimum of 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. The Household Army will ideally consist of 4 infantry regiments, 3 ranged regiments, and 2 cavalry regiments. For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments. All regiments must be professional soldiers, not militia.
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
7) The Chancellor will attempt to maintain the Household Armies at full strength, with the highest quality regiments available.
8) In emergencies, the Chancellor may detach any units in excess of the minimum strength level for use elsewhere. The Chancellor may not reduce a Household Army below the minimum strength level without the permission of the Duke.
9) If the Imperial Treasury cannot support all Household Armies at minimum strength, the Chancellor must consult with the Dukes and receive their permission to reduce the Household Armies in such a way as to eliminate the deficit.
10) The Imperial Diet may temporarily remove any or all of these rules by a simple majority vote. The temporary period will last no longer than 10 turns.

Charter Amendment 12.6: (1) Each House will have TWO standing Household Armies. They will operate according to CA5.1 in all respects, but have separate commanders appointed by the Duke.
(2) Outremer will have two standing armies. They will operate in accordance with CA9.1, but have separate commanders appointed by the King.
(3) The Kaiser and Prinz will each command standing Imperial armies, of the guideline size given in CA5.1. The Kaiser and Prinz can each give orders for their army during full Diet sessions. They are expected to personally command their own armies but can nominate a replacement commander at any time if they are too busy attending to civil matters. The Chancellor and the Kaiser/Prinz are expected to liase closely over the use of the deployment of the Kaiser/Prinz's army.


7. Crusades and missions.

7.1 The Chancellor must endeavour to follow missions from the Pope and Council of Nobles, unless exempted by the Diet. Missions from guilds and foreign powers are optional.

7.2 Crusades must be authorised by the Diet, unless announced by another faction.

7.3 When a crusade is called, the Chancellor must ask all generals if they wish to join. He must include at least three volunteers who reply within 48 hours. If there are more than three, he must pick the three most pious. However, he can decline a volunteer if that would usurp his pick of army commander. If the AI calls a crusade, the Chancellor can choose not to follow it, even if generals wish to join - but he must still notify them immediately of the call and get their view on whether they would like to join (were he to follow the call).

Charter Amendment 9.1:

The Charter of the Kingdom of Outremer

1. The Kingdom of Outremer will consist of Antioch, Acre, Adana, Aleppo, Edessa and Damascus.

2. The Kingdom of Outremer is an integral part of the Reich. It is not a fifth House.

3. The function of the Kingdom is defensive: to safeguard Jerusalem and protect the gateway to Christendom

4. The Kingdom will be overseen by a King of Outremer, who will be appointed by the Emperor at each full Diet session. The King will temporarily renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his appointment (e.g. if Duke, must appoint a Steward). The King of Outremer may propose up to 3 personal Edicts during each Diet session, but 2 must specifically deal with Outremer affairs. (Stricken portion overridden by Kaiser due to conflict with CA11.3.

5. The King will command a Household Army, both acting according to Charter Amendment 5.2 (with the King assuming the role of “Duke”). He may delegate the day to day command of the Army (assign other generals to lead it in battle). However, contrary to CA5.1, to be in accordance with article (1), the Army may not be used to permanently conquer neighbouring provinces (recapturing Christian settlements taken by non-Christians and returning them to their original owners would be allowed).

6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The Dukes and the Emperor will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count which are allocated to their control.

7. Both the King and Crusading Counts must be physically located outside Europe for the duration of their appointments.

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia. Antioch will be the capital of Outremer and an Imperial province governed by the King of Outremer. Edessa will also be an Imperial province, governed by a Count chosen by the King of Outremer. The Crusading Count for a settlement must come from the appropriate House. They will gain +1 influence, but only if they are not already a Count in their Duchy, and only for the Diet session that marks their appointment. The cap of 6 influence for all but the Emperor remains.

Charter Amendment 11.3: The King of Outremer is allowed to propose three Edicts (or Charter Amendments) per Diet Session. Prior to being tabled in the Diet, these must be seconded by two Crusader Counts in the Council of Crusaders.

Charter Amendment 11.6: The position of King of Outremer is appointed by the emperor. This appointment lasts for the duration of the emperors reign or the Kings lifetime, whichever is shorter. The King of Outremer is permitted to resign, if the emperor is willing to accept the resignation, upon which a new King is appointed by the emperor. If the King of Outremer is deemed incapable of the assignment, he may be impeached by the emperor and 2 Dukes.

8. Historical armies

Only historical armies can fight battles (ahistorical stacks can be used for transport).

No more than half an army can be mercenary. Crusader mercenaries (crusader sergeants, crusader knights, pilgrims, fanatics) can count as natives.

Revised maxima for each unit type by number of units in stack

3^Type|1-5|6-10|11-15|16+
7^Generals|2|2|2|2
7^Knights|2|4|6|8
7^Cavalry|2|4|6|8
7^Missile inf|2|3|4|6
7^Elite inf|2|3|4|6
7^Other foot|Any|Any|Any|Any
7^Artillery|1|2|3|4


Crusades are exempt from restrictions on the number of generals.

Unit type definitions:
- Knights: Dismtd Feudal knights; Dismtd Imperial knights; Dismtd Gothic knights; Mailed knights; Feudal knights; Imperial knights; Teutonic knights; General’s bodyguard; Gothic knights; plus any mercenary knights or equivalent heavy cavalry.
- Cavalry: Any mounted knights plus non-knightly cavalry (Mounted crossbowmen ; Reiters; Merchant cavalry; Mounted sergeants, Turcomans etc)
-Foot missiles: Peasant archers; Peasant crossbowmen; Crossbow militia; Pavisse crossbowmen; Arquebusiers; Handgunners etc
-Elite infantry: Zweihander; Forlorn Hope; Landsknechts; dismounted knights and equivalent mercs - e.g. Galllowglass
-Other foot: Peasants; Town militia; Halberd militia; Spear militia; Sergeant spearmen; Armoured spearmen; Crusader sergeants; Pike militia

Here's the old german titles of nobility and our equivalents:

Political
Elector = Kurfurst
Count = Graf
Duke = Herzog
Prince = Prinz
Emperor = Kaiser

Military
Knight = Ritter
Field Marshal = Generalfeldmarshal

OverKnight
08-31-2007, 17:10
There two battles and one optional battle left for 1286. It's been approximately 24 hours since the originial save was uploaded, so Tamur can get to it tonight if he wishes.

I have plans Sat afternoon and night, so depending on how quickly the battles are fought, we might not move on until Sunday.

Privateerkev
08-31-2007, 17:13
OK,

This is completely unacceptable. Chancellors are not allowed to have a life.

:hide:


jk :laugh4:

Tamur
09-01-2007, 04:53
Taking the save.

Tamur
09-01-2007, 05:51
Battle fought and won. Fritz executed the prisoners since they were Danes.

Save is here: http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1286-4.zip

http://cicero.modwest.com/images/tw/kotr/prebattle-1286.jpg

http://cicero.modwest.com/images/tw/kotr/result-1286.jpg

FactionHeir
09-01-2007, 06:37
Is our reputation 'Despicable' yet?

Ignoramus
09-01-2007, 08:02
Taking the save now.

Cecil XIX
09-01-2007, 08:06
Is our reputation 'Despicable' yet?

Yep. Sure would be a nice 'Glorious Achievement' if we made one of our enemies a vassal.

FactionHeir
09-01-2007, 08:29
I was proposing that before I took over Hans even.

Cecil XIX
09-01-2007, 08:33
Indeed, it's a good idea.

...Incidentally, I think our character portraits would look more like the way we're roleplaying them if they swapped facial expressions. >_>

Ignoramus
09-01-2007, 11:35
Xdeathfire's and my battles were fought and won.

However, after my sally, I noticed that a strong French army within striking distance of Paris - with a ballista. Not wanting a lighting assault which I knew I couldn't hold, I attacked, hoping to eliminate the ballista, but the French Aventuriers shot down all my cavalry :help:, and after Wolfgang lost 10 bodyguards attempting to charge them(due to their bolts), I couldn't do it. I almost routed their army, but in the end I was defeated. Paris is in desperate need of reinforcements.

AussieGiant
09-01-2007, 11:43
Wow a defeat.

Write that one up Igno, it should be great.

FactionHeir
09-01-2007, 11:44
You fought Xdeathfire's battle? Or do you mean you marched Wolfgang all the way to Caen and attacked them, with Xdeathfire as reinforcements?

[edit]
That would be the second player-led defeat we ever had in KOTR. First being mine :)

econ21
09-01-2007, 12:40
Ignoramus, why did you fight Xdeathfire's battle for him? People should only fight their own avatar's battles, unless they are acting as proxies for someone unable to fight for some fairly long term OOC reason.

Stig
09-01-2007, 12:45
I'm kinda split on this, yes we won, but Xdeath did not fight, as we really agreed on: no proxies.

I'd say refight only your own battle. If Xdeath wants to fight let him do so.

Ignoramus
09-01-2007, 13:14
OverKnight told me to fight Xdeathfire's battle, so I did.

econ21
09-01-2007, 14:14
OverKnight told me to fight Xdeathfire's battle, so I did.

All right, sorry for giving you grief over it. You were just doing what you were told and did an impressive job on Xdeathfire's behalf.

We'll play on, but Overknight, I think there was a consensus a while back to get tougher on proxies - hence the active duty list.

Stig
09-01-2007, 14:23
I still say refight, if we agree on something, we agree on something, end of story.

econ21
09-01-2007, 14:33
Stig, if I thought Xdeathfire would be annoyed by this, I would say re-fight too. But he has had to fight a lot of battles in France and in general seems fairly relaxed/busy, so I suspect he will be cool with it.

I think it's a bit like those football refereeing decisions, where you let things play on to keep things rolling smoothly rather than stop and start over minor things.

Let's try to avoid another repetition, though.

Stig
09-01-2007, 14:36
I don't care if Xdeath agrees on it or not. We agreed on something, why agree on something if we are breaking it?
We might as well attack more cities then said in Edicts, afterall we only agreed on it, did we?

It's a matter of principle, nothing more.

OverKnight
09-01-2007, 15:35
OverKnight told me to fight Xdeathfire's battle, so I did.

I did no such thing. I asked you to sally out of Paris.


You are now in command in Paris. Repulse the siege.


That was the extent of your orders.

Ignoramus, go back and fight a sally out of Paris. Do not fight anyone else's battle. If you get it done in 24 hours I'll go on from that. If not, I will autoresolve from Tamur's upload.

FactionHeir
09-01-2007, 15:36
In this case I'd say let Xdeathfire play his own battle.
And Ignoramus can fight his battles again, ensuring he gets defeated by the second stack (again) to bring us up to date.

OverKnight
09-01-2007, 15:48
Here's the PM I sent to people,


Please see this post. Xdeathfire's battle is very much optional.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1656028&postcount=593

I guess Ignoramus assumed he was the only recepient and inferred he was to take Xdeathfire's battle. Of course when I pull stuff like that I'm a bit more verbose.

econ21
09-01-2007, 16:39
Thanks, Overknight. With your explanation, it's easy to see how the misunderstanding arose.

Let's proceed as you proposed before - Ignoramus should refight his battle; Xdeathfire can fight if he wants to. As usual, whoever wants to do a battle should post here first to say that they have taken the save. We don't want to rewrite history more times than we need to.

Privateerkev
09-01-2007, 19:04
I've been digging the "no proxies" rule except for long absences. The active duty list seems to be working as we intended. Any opinion on whether we should sticky it like SC suggested a while back? Otherwise its going to slip down into the nether regions of the forum until a new person signs up. It is in the library though. just my thoughts.

gibsonsg91921
09-01-2007, 19:19
definitely sticky dat biatch

AussieGiant
09-02-2007, 07:07
Disappointing to see SecuRom in the Expansion Pack.

Ironically the game has already been hacked so it's made zero difference and has simply caused people to become entirely annoyed at the fact that there are files on your own PC for a game you spent your money on that are unable to be deleted by you, the owner.

FactionHeir
09-02-2007, 12:17
Quite. Its unlikely they'll do something about it either, considering it would be added on install and not on running the game.
Best to keep such discussion in that topic though ~:)

Btw, about Arnold's invite, what timezone is that?

TevashSzat
09-02-2007, 12:56
Disappointing to see SecuRom in the Expansion Pack.

Ironically the game has already been hacked so it's made zero difference and has simply caused people to become entirely annoyed at the fact that there are files on your own PC for a game you spent your money on that are unable to be deleted by you, the owner.

Hear, Hear.

The new Bioshock has SecuRom and is supposedly ver hard to crack or it will at least take a long time, but someone has already cracked it I hear.

Regarding the battle, I wouldn't care if its a relatively minor battle such as this one, but I would want to fight the bigger battles myself like the one I just fought

Stig
09-02-2007, 13:22
Meh, it's all blown up, it's not like he makes sure your computer begins to produce blue smoke.
I'm getting Kingdoms anyway, can't be bothered with something trivial.

If it would be harmfull it wouldn't be in the game.

econ21
09-02-2007, 13:48
Regarding the battle, I wouldn't care if its a relatively minor battle such as this one, but I would want to fight the bigger battles myself like the one I just fought

You are welcome to download the save (not the one Ignoramus posted, the earlier one) and fight the sally. Factionheir said it is potentially a tough battle, although being a sally, the AI may mess up.

Stig
09-02-2007, 13:59
Even with that, the AI has a massive number. I would let them attack, burn down some siege towers and rams and let them climb the ladders. Easy victory.

Dutch_guy
09-02-2007, 15:08
Has there been any progress concerning my yet to spawn franconian general, or by-now grown up family member ?

:balloon2:

gibsonsg91921
09-02-2007, 15:10
tancred von tyrolia spawned a few turns back in vienna, hes near a polish army last i saw

OverKnight
09-02-2007, 18:07
Has there been any progress concerning my yet to spawn franconian general, or by-now grown up family member ?

:balloon2:

Yeah, you've got an avatar, Tancred, currently north of Breslau. I'm going to have Tancred join one of HAs, most likely Peter's to see some action and get knighted. He had to spawn in Vienna because that was the closest place with Huge Walls, the building we linked to recruitable Generals.

OverKnight
09-02-2007, 19:18
I am taking the save. I'm moving on from 1286-4. It is unfortunate that Ignoramus's battle will have to be skipped.

GeneralHankerchief
09-02-2007, 19:52
.Org is as slow as molasses right now.

Anyone want to spice things up IC?

Stig
09-02-2007, 20:06
.Org is as slow as molasses right now.

Anyone want to spice things up IC?

Sorry m8, Ansehelm is still in Russia.
Otherwise I would have him walk in the Diet saying that Jan is a drunkard and that he always arrives late when fighting as reinforcements and that with that he killed Salier. :laugh4:

GeneralHankerchief
09-02-2007, 20:08
Ohpleaseohpleaseohplease

Privateerkev
09-02-2007, 20:10
GH: nah, I'm layin low for now. I've spiced things up enough around here. Someone else can lob hand grenades for a bit. Too much spice will just lead to a burnt mouth. :beam:

Stig:

1.) Everyone in here seems to be RP'ing drunkards whether its on their traits or not.

2.) Not too much I can do about the whole "reinforcements delayed" event. Thats more to do with the player's computer.

3.) Jan could go into the Diet and lob a bomb or two as well but it gets to where they become less effective the more you do it.

:beam:

GeneralHankerchief
09-02-2007, 20:24
2.) Not too much I can do about the whole "reinforcements delayed" event. Thats more to do with the player's computer.

Okay, try this:

After I upload the save I go back to fight the battle for real (just for fun) and Jan is still late.

Still the computer, eh? I smell a conspiracy here. :yes:

Privateerkev
09-02-2007, 20:27
Are you trying to claim that my character conspired with your computer to kill your character? o_O

I guess you can try to argue that to the Diet if you want...

If your computer crashes, is that Jan's fault too?

:laugh4:

Stig
09-02-2007, 20:42
Everyone in here seems to be RP'ing drunkards whether its on their traits or not.
Well, Jan and Arnold practically live in the Tavern ~D

Privateerkev
09-02-2007, 20:53
True but part of the reason I have Jan go in there so much is for OOC reasons that have to do with wanting to keep the thread alive. That and with EO joining, there are some story threads going on that have to do with the Tavern. Here is a list of who has been in the tavern:

Jan
Jens
Wolfgang
Arnold
Edmund
Dieter
Hans
Elberhard
Peter
Friedrich
Matthias
Gerhard
Fritz
Larisa

Lets see, thats two Dukes, a King, a Prince, a Chancellor, and an ex-Chancellor/Steward. Not to mention most of House Franconia. All of em are drunkards? Well, come to think of it, they probably all are. :laugh4:

gibsonsg91921
09-02-2007, 21:05
haha peter isnt really a drunkard, he just likes to unwind. he got a little stressed that one time when he was fighting with u and drank even more, but hes more there for scoping the hotties. but yeah, jan and arnold seem to be the biggest drinkers.

Warmaster Horus
09-02-2007, 21:09
Otherwise I would have him walk in the Diet saying that Jan is a drunkard and that he always arrives late when fighting as reinforcements and that with that he killed Salier.

How about having him send a message to that effect? That way, Ansehelm wouldn't be there for the ensuing chaos.

Privateerkev
09-02-2007, 21:13
WM:

Messages to the Diet are certainly possible but it is seen by some to be not as effective as saying it in person. Your character would probably be criticized by some for hiding behind a letter or proxy. No rule against it but that seems to be how some of the character's would perceive that action. Its one of the reasons I've had Jan get away from saying things by proxy. I thought it would be good to RP distance but what your character says has less punch. Plus, we've all seemed to agree that in the twenty years between each Diet meeting, there is plenty of time to have your character go back and forth. :book:

Stig
09-02-2007, 21:19
How about having him send a message to that effect? That way, Ansehelm wouldn't be there for the ensuing chaos.
Something like this:
Hey guys, it's me Ansehelm. I can't be in the Diet now, but I just wanted to say that Jan is a drunkard who got King Salier killed.

Cecil XIX
09-02-2007, 21:38
Hey guys, it's me Ansehelm. I can't be in the Diet now, but I just wanted to say that Jan is a drunkard who got King Salier killed.

That wording is perfect. :laugh4:

Dutch_guy
09-02-2007, 21:59
Yeah, you've got an avatar, Tancred, currently north of Breslau. I'm going to have Tancred join one of HAs, most likely Peter's to see some action and get knighted. He had to spawn in Vienna because that was the closest place with Huge Walls, the building we linked to recruitable Generals.

Ok, sounds good. No better place to get started.

:balloon2:

Privateerkev
09-02-2007, 22:08
Something like this:
Hey guys, it's me Ansehelm. I can't be in the Diet now, but I just wanted to say that Jan is a drunkard who got King Salier killed.

That would probably be about as effective as Jan sending this to the Diet,

Hey guys, its King Jan. I just wanted to take this opportunity to inform you that Duke Ansehelm is completely incompetent and believes that he can run a Duchy from deep within Russia. As the last election results show, this did not go as well as he hoped because his own men craved direction and leadership yet found none. But, he fervently wishes that his attacks on me will distract the Diet from his own inadequacies as a Duke.

gibsonsg91921
09-02-2007, 22:35
haha gentlemen peace

ur both right.

well, not really. i think ansehelm is a great duke, the kastiliens love him at least

Privateerkev
09-02-2007, 22:41
Gibson,

The point was, my pretend letter to the Diet is about as much based in fact as his pretend letter.

As for peace, things would go a lot easier when I can figure out when he's joking and when he isn't. Our PM's get confusing. Since he seems to insist on including me in his little jokes, for some reason best known only to him, this will be something him and I will just have to work out.

OverKnight
09-02-2007, 23:00
1286 has been completed and an updated report is now up.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1655994&postcount=268

OverKnight
09-03-2007, 01:19
Battle Queue 1288

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1288.zip

First come, first serve.

Friedrich Scherer - Optional

You may sally out if you wish. You are authorized to use all of the Paris garrison as reinforcements.

Peter von Kastilien

You have pursued a Polish force north of Thorn. Finish them.

Gerhard Steffen

Father, you have crossed into Sicily in pursuit of a small Sicilian army. Destroy them before they can return to Palermo.

Karl Zirn - Completed

You have caught up with your old nemesis al Muazzam. Remove this thorn from Outremer's side.

AussieGiant
09-03-2007, 02:11
Hi All,

FYI on the invitation,

I've got no idea how to do this, so I'm open to suggestions.

There is no time frame as the game and real life are so distorted there is no chance for it to happen.

OK just pressed end turn so we've jumped another year anyway.

Northnovas
09-03-2007, 02:14
Executing arrest warrant for one al Muazzam.

Warrant executed

Newest save:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1288-1.zip

Storyline to follow.

GeneralHankerchief
09-03-2007, 03:02
Ooh, wonder if Jan will like the outcome or not.

AussieGiant
09-03-2007, 03:04
I guess not. :yes:

Northnovas
09-03-2007, 04:10
It wasn't much a battle so I put it in the story thread to explain Karl's motivation.
For the Chancellor:

https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/northnovas/Karl%20Battles/1288-3victory.jpg
https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/northnovas/Karl%20Battles/1288-4stats.jpg

EternalOlympia
09-03-2007, 07:09
edit: this is entirely wrong! ah, you are right AussieGiant, it's all wrong. I shouldn't post things I'm not sure about.

~:mecry:

Tamur said he would help me draw one if he had time this week. I hope that comes to be!

EternalOlympia
09-03-2007, 07:24
All of em are drunkards? Well, come to think of it, they probably all are.

lol! I hope not. Though Horst would not mind for all the sales that would bring. ~:cheers:

I am sure there are in-character reasons to stay away from the Tavern. And there are probably in-character reasons to stay away from me as well (or Larisa I mean). All's fair in love and roleplaying, if a character's aversion to taverns is well set in traits or what have you.

No one ought to feel the slightest bit guilty for not coming in there. Or should that be, every one should not feel guilty for coming in there? Or maybe, nary a person should feel no guilt for not coming in...

I'm confused now, time to go to bed again and start the day over!

AussieGiant
09-03-2007, 07:36
Mmmhmmm.

Well, here is a bit of how I pictured Larisa... though without quite the "I have overdone makeup but am still attempting to be a supermodel" look. And excuse the slightly twisted smile. And the pasted-on bliaut. And the strange white mess on her right side. and and and.

https://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff117/EternalOlympia/larisa.jpg

The hair is right, though.

~:mecry:

Tamur said he would help me draw one if he had time this week. I hope that comes to be!

Cripes!!

That's not what I had in mind :laugh4:

Still, the hair is nice.

Stig
09-03-2007, 09:33
What no firm, blonde, blue eyed, arian woman?

I protest ~D

AussieGiant
09-03-2007, 10:30
Can anyone tell me what a "Swordbearer" does for your retinue?

Now I've got five of these guy's. :dizzy2:

FactionHeir
09-03-2007, 12:10
Basically someone to give you a spare sword when your's breaks or possibly to carry your ceremonial sword around.
He does give you personal security though, so that's always nice.

Stig
09-03-2007, 12:19
Ituralde, what the hell are you up to m8?

Is Theadora that unpleasant?

Ituralde
09-03-2007, 12:51
Only the future will tell, which Empire profits more! :beam:

AussieGiant
09-03-2007, 12:58
Indeed it will Ituralde.

Warluster
09-03-2007, 22:23
Just to let all know, I will be away for 5 days on a camping trip.

Cecil XIX
09-04-2007, 00:16
Have fun, Warluster.

FactionHeir
09-04-2007, 04:40
Don't forget to update your status and have fun.

Stuperman
09-04-2007, 16:42
Hey, hey, I'm posting from School!

1st day of new program, I'll fight my battle later today. Hope I haven't held the game up too much

Northnovas
09-04-2007, 16:51
Hey, hey, I'm posting from School!

1st day of new program, I'll fight my battle later today. Hope I haven't held the game up too much

No you haven't it's been a quiet weekend on the threads. I hope everyone was out enjoying the last of a summer weekend. I know I was and now it's getting ready for the routine back to school or work depending what your up too.

EternalOlympia
09-04-2007, 18:15
I'm sure I've skipped someone, and pardon if I have, but I made up a list today of, amongst other items, who is married and who isn't. I have the following married:

Lothar Steffen
Siegfried von Kastilien
Elberhard the Lewd
Karl Zirn
Gerhard Steffen
Dieter Bresch
Edmund Becker

The other *counts on fingers* thirteen active players are unmarried, many in their mid-thirties and some even in their fourties.

I have to question why on earth anyone living in this time period would decide to stay unmarried past twenty! Either one had children or one slowly starved after passing fifty years. I guess everyone here is connected to nobility somehow, so starvation isn't a factor. But heirs are.

It seems exceedingly strange. I hear that the players have no control over this, but someone really should fix that.

FactionHeir
09-04-2007, 18:21
Also consider 3 of the above were "force married" using princesses.
The files I gave out should increase the marriages rates somewhat (albeit very little), but it really is outside our control without modding the exe file itself.

GeneralHankerchief
09-04-2007, 18:23
Generally the game keeps a ratio of how many family members there are to provinces we control. More people aren't married because the ratio is stable now, according to the game, and it doesn't want to throw that equation out of whack by allowing for the possibility of people having kids.

Obviously, it's not that good for our situation but we've found ways to RP around it.

Cecil XIX
09-04-2007, 18:24
The reason there are limits on such things is so nations don't go bankrupt paying for 'General's Bodyguards'.

I had that happen to me in a Deus lo Vult campaign. Quite irritating, though I suppose it was partially my fault for accepting marriages and adoptions.

Tamur
09-04-2007, 20:56
Just a note (and question) on the current situation... I'm pulling in some actual historical information rather than entirely game-related events, simply for colour in the Diet. Is that all right?

GeneralHankerchief
09-04-2007, 21:00
I think we broke off from the actual history bit in, oh, 1082. :grin: But we still might be able to translate it into a good RP situation.

Have the recent past Chancellors ever seen Byzantine diplomats or Princesses anywhere near the Mongols? Did the Mongols ever officially declare war against the Greeks?

If the answers to both of those questions are "yes" I think we have ourselves a situation here. :yes:

Stig
09-04-2007, 21:04
Hey Olymp, what was that note about?
Can't you just tell OOC, I tend to forget about simple messages like these and delete them.

OverKnight
09-04-2007, 21:56
I'll be back home soon. It seems some battles still need to be fought, so I'm tacking on another 24 hours. After that, they'll be auto-resolved.

Stig
09-04-2007, 23:05
Just wanted to say this:
!%@$# the investigations


~D

Ituralde
09-04-2007, 23:37
Just a note (and question) on the current situation... I'm pulling in some actual historical information rather than entirely game-related events, simply for colour in the Diet. Is that all right?

Of course it is! :2thumbsup:

Seriously though, Byzantium and Empress Theodora is quite a touchy subject under the current circumstances. Besides other involvements, it would just be rude to let a newly formed wedding alliance be disgraced this easily.

GeneralHankerchief
09-04-2007, 23:41
We need a bomb smiley.

Stig
09-04-2007, 23:53
We certainly do ~D

Tamur
09-05-2007, 02:04
lol! Blast, caught out at third base! Ah well, Fritz was definitely asking for it. Now he gets to play wait for 1300 and rabble-rouse at the Tavern.

FactionHeir
09-05-2007, 14:58
Might be too early for a judgement, but I think this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=89082&page=6) might be worth a read for the future of KOTR.

Ironically, I had just talked to Lusted about this a few days earlier and was told there should be no problems. Looks like there might just be.

Stig
09-05-2007, 15:06
You sure that's the correct link, I would have expected some mod.

econ21
09-05-2007, 15:18
Factionheir is worried about our 1.2 saves being compatible with 1.3 and vice versa. I'm going to test it out tonight - I'll try a 1.2 save in 1.3 and then create a new save in 1.3, asking someone without 1.3 to download it and try to load it.

Dutch_guy
09-05-2007, 15:18
You sure that's the correct link, I would have expected some mod.

Indeed. Well, at least not a busy throne room thread like that one :wink:

:balloon2:

Stig
09-05-2007, 15:38
Well, I've got 1.3 (because I have Kingdoms), I'll test it now

Stig
09-05-2007, 15:43
1.2 saves work for my Kingdoms 1.3.
That means that everyone can patch to 1.3. That way we'll all be back on the same version, and game files won't be effected, as 1.3 is really a MP patch.

FactionHeir
09-05-2007, 15:48
I thought you can only get 1.3 using STEAM or via buying Kingdoms at this time? At least it does not seem publicized anywhere at the Citadel.

On a sidenote, I have read (although not sure, as I don't have 1.3) that the 1.3 patch changes the SafeDisc protection to SecuROM 7, so it would be good to first make sure that people are OK with patching up and the risk associated with it.

Stig
09-05-2007, 15:50
Well that stuff about SecuRom is all blown up. I'd say if you don't like it, fat luck. I've got Kingdoms installed, nothing found, not even the rootkit I was supposed to find.

If it would be a problem gamereviewers should mention it, as they are the professionals, and they don't.


Anyway, to get news you should visit dotcommie:
http://www.totalwar.com/index.html?page=/en/newsandpress/index.html&nav=/en/5/

GeneralHankerchief
09-05-2007, 22:13
So it won't be a problem for those with Kingdoms and it won't be for those without Kingdoms, basically?

That's cool with me.

Northnovas
09-05-2007, 22:27
Other the scenarios and hotseat there is nothing that was changed in the gameplay like the Grand Campaign?

econ21
09-05-2007, 22:37
So it won't be a problem for those with Kingdoms and it won't be for those without Kingdoms, basically?

Just to check that, please can someone without Kingdoms or 1.3 load up the following savegame?

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1288-test.zip

It's the latest save, loaded into 1.3 after a silly battle. If people without Kingdoms can load that save, I think we are ok to proceed with some still on 1.2 and others still on 1.3.


...nothing that was changed in the gameplay like the Grand Campaign?

Not in so far as we have been told. It is disappointing in the long term, but may make continuing this PBM easier.

OverKnight
09-05-2007, 22:46
It doesn't load.

Stig
09-05-2007, 23:51
It doesn't load.
In that case I think it's best to move on to 1.3 now.
I know more than one of us have Kingdoms, and it isn't that much work to download a patch. It's atleast easier then having 2 seperate installs (as I've got no idea how to do that).

gibsonsg91921
09-05-2007, 23:56
crap i cant make this battle either... i was at a party when it was assigned and couldnt do it monday night either.

econ21
09-05-2007, 23:57
Stig, the problem is that there does not appear to be a 1.3 patch publicly available. I just checked the .com support page and there is no 1.3 patch listed. So, until and unless there is one publicly available, this PBM will have to stay on 1.2. People with Kingdoms installed, like me, will either have to uninstall it or do a dual install if they want to fight battles. I can't say I am thrilled at that prospect, but I don't think we have a choice.

Stig
09-06-2007, 00:05
meh
http://www.totalwar.com/index.html?page=/en/newsandpress/index.html&nav=/en/5/
http://www.gamershell.com/download_20881.shtml

Like I said

econ21
09-06-2007, 00:58
Good find, Stig. Sorry I missed the link to the patch that you posted earlier.

In principle, I don't see any problem in moving this campaign on to 1.3. Does anyone else?

If there is no problem in principle, we need to sort out the practicalities - ie when we make the switch.

Ideally, I would Factionheir to patch first, just to check that his modded files will be fine under 1.3. The key person right now is Overknight - what is your situation? And what about everyone else - does any one face a problem patching to 1.3?

I'm inclined to propose that Overknight upgrade to 1.3 before uploading the save for next year. Is that going to cause any one a problem?

BTW, Stig - if you can find the time, please can you upload the savegame I linked to, just to make sure it can be loaded in someone else's 1.3? I ran it with 1.3, but used the icon that makes M2TW use Factionheir's modded files.

TevashSzat
09-06-2007, 02:59
I just looked at how big it is. Its 538 mb.....Thats a HUGE patch. I might not get it atm because my internet is deciding to be really slow atm and it will take me like 5 hours to dl it.

gibsonsg91921
09-06-2007, 03:24
geez thats massive
i think i might just wait till i get kingdoms.

OverKnight
09-06-2007, 03:25
Is that seperate 1.3 patch legit? Also it looks like we have less than universal access to 1.3, so for now I will continue to play in 1.2, especially because 1.3 doesn't improve gameplay AFAIK.

Once we reach a concensus, I have no problem using 1.3, but I don't want to leave anyone behind if it can be helped.

A switchover would go more smoothly over a Diet Session anyway, as we did with 1.2.

Edit: I'm taking the save. All outstanding battles will be auto-calced.

Northnovas
09-06-2007, 03:49
I have to agree I could not get the mirror it was busy but if gameplay is not affected I would wait till we have a concensus before the 1.3 change.

FactionHeir
09-06-2007, 04:37
I think OK is right in waiting for the next diet session. This should also allow ample time for people with slow connections (mine is really slow here too, and unstable) to download the patch in the meantime or get further information on the SecuROM developments and stuff and whether there is a way to get the two versions to become compatible.

Stuperman
09-06-2007, 04:43
hey hey.

Can I still fight my battle?

Sorry I'm like a day late....it's been crazy with school starting, I should have my laptop within a week and it's got a 8600GT, so I should be able to battle on the go.

FactionHeir
09-06-2007, 04:48
OK took the save in an hour ago.

Stuperman
09-06-2007, 05:26
yeah, I thought so, I uploaded the save, it's 1288-2 if he wants it, I executed and got a new nickname.

OverKnight
09-06-2007, 06:10
You're lucky Stuperman that I got sucked in by Bioshock, had to finish a level and checked in before I continued with the save.

Post the battle stats when you get a chance.

Stig
09-06-2007, 07:10
Well, if you don't want to switch over till a Diet Session you better not get Ansehelm in a battle. I'm not going to do 2 installations (as I've got no idea how to) just because a couple of you aren't willing to switch over.

AussieGiant
09-06-2007, 07:21
I don't mean to be rude guy's, but I'm not a fan of having a permanent set of files that I can't remove installed on my machine.

SecuROM is not a healthy piece of software.

Given 1.3 does nothing to the game "except" install secuROM on the vanilla game, I'm struggling to work out why we are doing this.

Who is actually going to install Kingdoms in the next few months?

Dutch_guy
09-06-2007, 07:31
Who is actually going to install Kingdoms in the next few months?

I already have, as has Stig. And from what Econ said earlier in the thread, I think he already has too.

:balloon2:

Stig
09-06-2007, 07:33
And Bob the Great.

That's 4, more will follow I think.
And sorry AG, but I'm not doing difficult things just because someone doesn't really want to have 1 complete harmless line in his registry.

AussieGiant
09-06-2007, 08:05
Is there an official patch to 1.3 that doesn't require buying Kingdoms?

I can't believe I'm going to have to patch this piece of crap security file onto my system just to keep playing AND it is impossible to remove.

And I would not assume it's totally harmless Stig.

OverKnight
09-06-2007, 08:11
The Defense of Caen, late 1288

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/1288-3.zip

Xdeathfire has a battle. The French have attacked Caen. I highly suggest you fight the battle rather than auto-calc. If you can't, get a proxy as your avatar's life is on the line.

econ21
09-06-2007, 09:37
Updating to 1.3 at the next Diet sounds like a reasonable compromise.

AussieGiant: there is a free public 1.3 patch - Stig posted two links to it. The patch mainly looks like it is for compatibility with Kingdoms - this is primarily for multiplayer, but is also relevant for PBMs like this one. Apparently, I installed SecuROM ages ago when I bought NWN2 but it only seems widely publicised with Bioshock, probably because it came with an install limit for that game (only). But I have not had any problems with it, nor does skimming through the Citadel thread on the topic give me any grounds for concern.

If 1.3 is a deal breaker for anyone, shout out. But in the long run, I think PBMs should be run on the latest patched version of a game. Most of the keen players will be running that. The Throne Room split with the VI expansion, as there was no free public patch, but that was not ideal.

Stig: with RTW, I did a dual install just by installing, patching to 1.2 only, and using windows explorer to copy the entire RTW directory. I then patched the copy further, not the original. However, it is a fairly long process and takes a lot of space. I don't think I will bother doing it again. I will just uninstall/reinstall M2TW if Elberhard gets a battle; I have not seriously got into Kingdoms (too busy with Bioshock). I guess people with Kingdoms who don't want to do a dual install or a reinstall will have to be regarded as being off active duty until the next Diet.

AussieGiant
09-06-2007, 09:41
Hi Econ,

Thanks for the information.

I've been one of the participants in the secuROM threads in the Citadel.

The version CA has used is certainly not as inhibiting as the one employed in Bioshock.

I wont have to deal with this until I get back so I'll put it on my list of things to update when I get back.

I agree that the PBM should use the latest patch...this one is just not a patch in reality :wall:

Stig
09-06-2007, 11:58
Stig: with RTW, I did a dual install just by installing, patching to 1.2 only, and using windows explorer to copy the entire RTW directory. I then patched the copy further, not the original. However, it is a fairly long process and takes a lot of space. I don't think I will bother doing it again. I will just uninstall/reinstall M2TW if Elberhard gets a battle; I have not seriously got into Kingdoms (too busy with Bioshock). I guess people with Kingdoms who don't want to do a dual install or a reinstall will have to be regarded as being off active duty until the next Diet.
Won't work for MTW2

I backed up MTW2 during 1.2 (working on a mod with some other guys). And those files are stored in the folder Backup, I can easely run that as a modfolder. Simply make a batfile and cfg file saying that it should start up from the folder Backup, but it still shows the version as 1.3

So it's either:
We patch for free (note: this patch does NOT change gameplay in anyway, so we wouldn't have to wait till a Diet Session).
Or about 5 of us won't be able to use something they payed 30 euro's for.

TinCow
09-06-2007, 14:15
For some odd reason, while getting ready for work this morning, I was thinking about the idea of the 'Catastrophic Event' for the 1320ish timeperiod. How about this:

Proto-Reformation

Alexander Luther (Ancestor of Martin Luther, known as "Lex" to his friends) is disgruntled with the changes in Christianity. He believes the Church is simply a puppet of the Holy Roman Empire and subject to its whims, rather than the teachings of Christ. He nails his 59 dissertations to the doors of Castle Church in Wittenberg. The contents of his writings rapidly spreads to all corners of the Reich.

A large segment of the common folk are sympathetic to his beliefs and dissent grows very rapidly. Riots break out in many cities; some buildings are burned down in many cities, including the magnificent Cathedral in Rome; the local garrisons and armies of the Reich are turned out to restore order; the mobs choose to fight and many soldiers are killed in the process; more soldiers either sympathize with the rioters or refuse to raise a hand against their own countrymen, resulting in mass desertion; eventually order is restored throughout the Reich, but some territories have been lost to active rebellion, some buildings have been destroyed in the remaining provinces, the armies and garrisons are massively reduced in size, and the Reich is unable to recruit more than one regiment per year per settlement for several turns.

FactionHeir
09-06-2007, 14:47
Interesting idea, but I'm not so sure why say half the regions would riot because the pope is a HRE puppet considering the people are all HRE and Outremer is there to protect the pope/christianity.
Besides, they probably are aware of the papal bulls we keep getting which threaten excom.

TinCow
09-06-2007, 15:26
Going by history, we can say that they are disgruntled by the granting of indulgences for monetary 'donations' to the Church. The rich can do as they please and go to heaven for a few florins, while the poor are doomed to hell because they cannot pay. The idea that the Pope is a HRE puppet only reinforces this, as the Reich's Electors are rich and powerful and are perceived to be bribing their way to heaven. Having the Pope under their sway is a way of assuring their salvation, no matter how heinous their sins.

As for the Papal Bull counter-argument, well, no one said that the conspiracy theory the mobs believe is actually true. Have a few charismatic rabble-rousers incite the mob with rhetoric and let them run wild. No one said muck-shoveling peasants were intelligent... Besides, this isn't the real Reformation. It is eventually completely suppressed and there is no split in the Church, so Lex Luther's arguments don't have to be too convincing. Hell, we can even make him an agent of that Pagan group, if we want.

Tamur
09-06-2007, 16:07
Sounds good to me. We do need some sort of a big shake-up to make things a bit more challenging. Maybe depopulation would solve the marriage crisis as well? I'm coming up on a low-Org-activity time once again (though not as gone as I was in June/July) so Fritz wouldn't mind dying in the catastrophe ~:)

Stig
09-06-2007, 17:56
Heh I would love to keep Ansehelm in Polish territory till then.
He finally comes back, marches into Thorn ... and gets attacked by an angry mob

Stig
09-06-2007, 19:05
OOC: As far as I know, banning extends to proxies.
This is correct, but Tamur does not let people speak for Fritz, I just states that someone runs of to tell Fritz something.
If that isn't even allowed, tssss.
Tamur might want to write a story and if he says Fritz has some info it would be nice to explain how he got it, and he did now.

EternalOlympia
09-06-2007, 19:20
*oops*

Tamur
09-06-2007, 19:24
So not only am I banned from the Diet, but anyone who speaks with me is as well? That seems exceedingly harsh. Thanks Stig, anyone else is free to clarify this as well.

Ituralde
09-06-2007, 19:31
No, only Fritz is banned. Can't ban all Franconian clerks, messengers, and what not. :beam:

Privateerkev
09-06-2007, 19:32
This is how I conceive of Diet banning:

When your banned, your banned. That means from the moment of banning, no posts at all in the Diet thread. None under your .org account. Which means no proxies, no retinue, no messengers. Econ has said he will back this up as a mod by deleting all posts by banned members that are made post-ban. This is to give the Kaiser some real power and instill an air of deference towards him. There is precedent for this with regards to Wolfgang's proxies.

Allowing proxies, retinue, and messengers undermines this power by using OOC limitations with regards to the web-board's mechanics to take IC advantage of something. What I mean by this is that I don't think Econ has an option that stops someone from posting in a thread, without making it blanket across the web-board. So, OOC, you can keep posting all through the ban and Econ would have to delete one by one. So, we seem to have an OOC agreement to not post in the Diet thread as long as the avatar is banned. This keeps the atmosphere of a banning alive and keeps Econ from having to delete posts.

As for what happens in the Diet, that is public knowledge as far as I know. As an elector, you can access the scribes and read the transcripts. So, while banned, you still know what happens in the Diet, you just can not communicate with the Diet at all.

Unless you get another elector to agree to voice a message to the Diet on your behalf. Though, the elector might want to think twice about that one. But thats more of a political consideration.

Again, these are just my thoughts on the matter. If someone else has different ideas or if Econ wants to weigh in, feel free. :book:

Stuperman
09-06-2007, 19:39
http://img31.picoodle.com/img/img31/9/9/6/t_statsm_a94d257.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/9/6/f_statsm_a94d257.jpg&srv=img31)

battle stats for OK. Got a new nickname too...went from 'the honorable' to 'the merciless'.....quite a swing in personality :dizzy2: :dizzy2:

Stig
09-06-2007, 19:44
For god's sake PK, Fritz did NOT speak in the Diet. Tamur only made a post there.

Sides as Ituralde just said only (read: O.N.L.Y.) Fritz is banned

Privateerkev
09-06-2007, 19:53
calm down. I grow tired of your inflammatory language towards me. I will not allow your temper tantrums to influence me from speaking my mind in this thread.

As far as I know, banning means the player can not post in the Diet thread until:

a.) the banning is lifted
b.) the Kaiser dies
c.) the banned elector dies or is abandoned by the player.

Otherwise, banning is effectively useless if we allow the player to keep posting in the Diet thread with proxies, messengers, and retinue.

TinCow
09-06-2007, 20:01
The Kaiser is responsible for maintaining order in the Diet. Whatever he says goes. If he says only Fritz is banned, then only Fritz is banned. If he says Fritz, his messengers, his scribes, his mother, his dog, his ocelot, and his hair lice are banned, then they are banned too. Don't piss off the Kaiser.

Privateerkev
09-06-2007, 20:04
Thats a good point TC. Since the Kaiser didn't specify that IC, I was going by the "Wolfgang precedent". But, its clear now. :yes:

Tamur
09-06-2007, 20:06
Ah. So a Diet ban is actually an out-of-character ban, barring the real player from posting anything whatsoever in the thread called "Imperial Diet".

Where was that line between IC and OOC again?

Privateerkev
09-06-2007, 20:10
As TC said, it seems to be the whim of the Kaiser. His powers over the Diet are vast and he seems to be able to set the limits as to how broad the banning is. I was not clear on what limits the Kaiser had set for Fritz so I was IC assuming a more broad definition due to precedent. But, it seems that the Kaiser's ban was more narrow than I thought. So, as far as I know, Fritz can send people into the Diet. :yes:

*edit*


Can't ban all Franconian clerks, messengers, and what not.

Well, technically the Kaiser could. There might be political consequences but he could do it. The Kaiser could technically ban everyone from the Diet if he chose. That would be interesting... :D

Tamur
09-06-2007, 20:36
Missed that as I was posting. Good, glad to hear I personally haven't been banned. I don't handle banning well. I don't think. Though I've never tried it. Hmm.

*runs off to see if Tosa can ban him for a few hours for fun*

Ituralde
09-06-2007, 21:10
I'm sorry, if I caused some confusion with my statement. I thought about clarifying it, but hoped it wouldn't be necessary. In the end all of you are right and I did not plan to put this down to the whims of Siegfried.

Ftiz von Kastilien is banned IC from the Diet. This means that neither he can speak nor any messages from him will be read. If a messenger starts proclaiming stuff in the name of Fritz, he will not be heard, just to clarify that for the future. In that way the ban does extend towards proxies, as PK has shown.

However, as all others have also rightfully mentionend the ban is IC. Tamur is not banned from the Diet thread. Considering the Diet is an IC thread and thus Tamur can't make any OOC comments there, his options are quite scarce. The only thing his posts can achieve then, is to try to add some flavour to the Diet. His post is the only way I can think they could even work, to be honest.

I believe everyone here understands what a banning from the Diet involves, and no one has crossed that line. Let's not blow this whole thing out of proportion. If Tamur had Fritz speak in his recent post, econ21 would surely have deleted it. Nothing has happened, I think we can just move on with our regular posting.

Ferret
09-06-2007, 21:21
Sorry Sstig but where did you announce your female heir because I'm stuggling to have an argument when I don't actually know what I'm talking about lol

Privateerkev
09-06-2007, 21:23
Ansehelm announced it in the Diet. I can't stress how much of a legal bomb this potentially is. Prince Elberhard just got an IC letter chock full of legal questions that should send his lawyers and scribes into catatonic shock for weeks. :yes:

AussieGiant
09-07-2007, 02:44
:dizzy2:

TevashSzat
09-07-2007, 02:51
I just dled the save, but due to school and what not, I can only fight it tomorrow afternoon so dont expect me to post the save until like late tomorrow night.

GeneralHankerchief
09-07-2007, 03:43
I think OK's rule is don't dl the save unless you can play it immediately.

FactionHeir
09-07-2007, 04:51
I think Xdeathfire can only dl saves at school and play them at home or so.

Warluster
09-07-2007, 07:07
HI all, just got back from the camping trip. SO I can fight any battles. But just gots wasitname exp so will off fpor a while...

btw, I am rather ashamed to see only 3 more pages in this thread after 4 days!

Tamur
09-07-2007, 14:51
I got lost in the discussion... are we patching to 1.3 via the links that Stig provided, or are we staying with 1.2 until we get some kind of an official 1.3 patch?

FactionHeir
09-07-2007, 14:55
The link is the official 1.3 patch.
And for the moment, I believe the sentiment is to wait till the next diet or so.

Anyone else feel really bored these days?

Privateerkev
09-07-2007, 15:00
Anyone else feel really bored these days?

Actually, things are kinda hoppin if your a Franconian, or as Jan is, at least of Franconian blood. The possibility that the next Duke of Franconia could be Russian or Moorish has me falling over laughing OOC and completely mortified IC. :yes:

AussieGiant
09-07-2007, 15:13
I'm as bored as bat shiet :yes:

Privateerkev
09-07-2007, 15:14
I as bored as bat shiet :yes:

Then you need to have Arnold name a controversial heir. Like Grom. Or Dieter's dog. :yes:

Stuperman
09-07-2007, 15:27
meh, I'm just waiting to die so I haven't been keeping up as closely as I have been.

EternalOlympia
09-07-2007, 15:59
Oh, you all sound like you need to go back to bed and wake up in a couple of days with some very good hot chocolate in your lives. Speaking of that... *runs off to the fridge*

Stig
09-07-2007, 16:52
Actually, things are kinda hoppin if your a Franconian, or as Jan is, at least of Franconian blood. The possibility that the next Duke of Franconia could be Russian or Moorish has me falling over laughing OOC and completely mortified IC. :yes:
Yeah so. You say I can't flame you, but you do make these remarks. That's just hipocritical, would I make them you would be all over the place screaming and kicking.

econ21
09-07-2007, 16:55
Stig and Privateerkev:

~:grouphug:

Privateerkev
09-07-2007, 16:57
OOC, I have zero problem with Ansehelm's choice of heir.

IC, I believe Ansehelm's choice of heir is nothing short of explosive.

As far as I know, these two statements can live together in harmony and do not "flame" you. I think it was an exciting move on your part and will cause some cool debate in the Diet. If you've noticed, I have not raised questions about the rules concerning this OOC. I have contained the questions to IC because I think it is an IC concern. :yes:

Stig
09-07-2007, 17:06
There can be no discussion IC m8, because there's nothing to discuss about :laugh4:

seriously

FactionHeir
09-07-2007, 17:09
Well, the Franconians might not be seeing Ansehelm as having too much authority, so they end up discussing it anyway. Time to get the whip out of the closet for him! :yes:

Privateerkev
09-07-2007, 17:14
There can be no discussion IC m8, because there's nothing to discuss about :laugh4:

seriously

You made a princess an heir. A princess can be married off to whomever the Kaiser wishes. Whomever the princess marries will be Duke. This opens up the possibility for the next Duke of Franconia to be Bavarian, Swabian, Austrian, or even Russian, Egyptian, Byzantine, ect...

There is a lot to discuss IC about this. :yes:

Stig
09-07-2007, 17:19
Heheh, which puts the future power of Franconia at the Kaiser, not at Ansehelm. Which in a way will make any action a Franconian takes to undermine the power Ansehelm an action to undermine the Kaiser. And every action to have a say in who will become the new heir an action against the Kaiser.

I think that's the explanation you're looking for. ~D

FactionHeir
09-07-2007, 17:20
Its not like Siegfried, albeit confirmed by the diet, is that popular with the people. Some still question his authority I'm sure.

Stig
09-07-2007, 17:23
Its not like Siegfried, albeit confirmed by the diet, is that popular with the people. Some still question his authority I'm sure.
Oh yes, so true, but he is the Kaiser ... sides you can switch heirs if you want to.

And Ansehelm did not give this explanation to the people. He just wanted someone young.
Tough choice:
Son of a traitor
Daughter of someone who's actions are more than controversial

Privateerkev
09-07-2007, 17:24
Heheh, which puts the future power of Franconia at the Kaiser, not at Ansehelm. Which in a way will make any action a Franconian takes to undermine the power Ansehelm an action to undermine the Kaiser. And every action to have a say in who will become the new heir an action against the Kaiser.

I think that's the explanation you're looking for.

Which is why I think it was an awesome move OOC. It makes a lot of sense and the rules certainly support it.

You just have to understand why some people would freak out IC though. :yes:

Many of us play avatars that are pretty racist and provincial so the idea of an "outsider" being in charge of a Duchy might not sit well with them. For the most part, we don't play open-minded characters. :laugh4:

Jan is a racist imperialist as well as a hard-core fundamentalist. He can't just let this go without saying something. He's just waiting for Elberhard's legal advice first. :beam:

FactionHeir
09-07-2007, 17:25
Hmm he could have made one of the Hamburgs his heir, but I don't think he really likes them.
If I were Ansehelm, I'd probably make Peter Steward for the time being, but making sure he really obeys your commands. When Ansehelm actually turns around 50 or is about to enter a major battle, its time to reconsider.

Privateerkev
09-07-2007, 17:28
Hmm he could have made one of the Hamburgs his heir, but I don't think he really likes them.
If I were Ansehelm, I'd probably make Peter Steward for the time being, but making sure he really obeys your commands. When Ansehelm actually turns around 50 or is about to enter a major battle, its time to reconsider.

He likes Helmut but Helmut is older than Ansehelm. And Peter will be steward till the girl marries. Like I said, its all pat OOC but it makes for good IC drama. :drama2:

TinCow
09-07-2007, 17:58
Hooray for Bavarian simplicity.

Cecil XIX
09-07-2007, 19:48
All this talk of whom Gersenda could marry reminds me something I noticed the other day. Scotland's only remaing province is Ireland, which in one of the recent saves is completely undefended. But the King of the Scots is on the mainland, and would become rebel if Dublin is take and thus able to be bribed into the Reich, than married into the family.

Imagine, going from King of Scotland to Duke of Franconia. :2thumbsup:

Tamur
09-07-2007, 20:30
Very interesting idea Cecil! Has anyone actually pulled this off in a campaign before?

TevashSzat
09-07-2007, 20:35
Okay just fought battle and won a heroic battle, but........the French besieges with another army. The English though moved near Caen and may either be helping us against the French or backstabbing us.

https://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z39/Xdeathfire/Untitledf-1.jpg

https://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z39/Xdeathfire/Untitled-7.jpg

Once again, I am too lazy to do a battle report so heres what happened

The French got my gate down and everyone rushed in. One side was my infantry all bunched up and the other my cavalry which is basically Frederich. The infantry engaged and the cav was supposed to make a nice charge into the back for mass rout, but the French got control of part of the walls and stopped my result. I retreated with my cav, but the enemy general followed. I led him out and then engaged in a general v general match. I won easily since I was like 2 gold chevrons and hes a new general. What followed was mass route and just cleaning up routers.

OverKnight
09-07-2007, 23:26
The Chancellor's report for 1288 has been updated.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1660585&postcount=269

1290 will commence shortly.

Cecil XIX
09-08-2007, 00:46
Very interesting idea Cecil! Has anyone actually pulled this off in a campaign before?

Actually, I just got that to work in my recent Spanish Campaign. When I conquored the Portuguese their King Tillman Diaz was outside the settlement. I bribed him, then married him off to a princess. Long story short, he went from King of Portugal to rebel to King of Spain. So it's quite possible and the role-playing oppurtunities would be fantastic.

OverKnight
09-08-2007, 01:27
Battle Queue 1290

Please check for the latest save.

First come, first serve. Battle stats including ratio would be appreciated. Post when you take and post a link when you upload.

Peter von Kastilien

The Polish General Chwalimir of Chelm and his army block your path to Vilnius. Drive them off, but try to preserve your forces.

Lothar Steffen

Your fleet lies off Palermo. I will leave the decision of where to land and whom to attack up to you. However, the end result must be that Palermo falls to you. If you can't accomplish this, Father will arrive in the next year to take command of the siege.

Edmund Becker - Completed

You and the second AHA have pursued two armies of rebels and Hungarians south of Budapest. Finish them both.

Friedrich Scherer - Optional

The Second SwHA will arrive in a year to relieve you. However if you wish to sally out, you may do so. OOC: Xdeathfire, if you need time between downloading and fighting the save, please go last.

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 01:28
I have a feeling I'm posting in the wrong spot.
But after "skimming" through the rules and such, I think this has caught enough of my attention to join. So I would like to join in to the Swabia, west. (I'm hoping to get most of the action here)

Stuperman
09-08-2007, 01:44
Welcome Roadkill, and this is as good a place as any to join. I'm sure that we can find a spot for you somewhere in Swabia, econ probably has a better Idea of where things stand on that front.

TevashSzat
09-08-2007, 02:00
Well, theres plently of fighting on the western front here. Angers is just a troop producing factory since we gave them so much money and I often have to fend off full stacks with relatively high quality troops. Holding settlements actually become quite tiresome as you can't move anywhere else because a full stack may jump out any time and besiege a city

econ21
09-08-2007, 02:09
Hi Roadkill - welcome to the PBM! Unfortunately, we have a dearth of avatars available; there is only one spare - an Austrian and Stuperman has his eyes on that chap, as his present avatar is waiting for death.

At a pinch, we can hire a recruitable general for you but the downside of that is that you won't appear on the family tree and the recruitable may crowd out proper avatars that the game spawns (we have a large number of provinces - I think we are due more avatars).

What I suggest is that you wait a turn or two to see if one of our two eligible females in the family tree get married. You can then thake the husband. There's a Swabian and a Bavarian who are of the right age to marry. I just clicked end turn twice and:

The Bavarian got married.

I know you want a Swabian, but I hope you can be persuaded to take the Bavarian if she marries first as that House has only four players (soon to be three when Stuperman's avatar dies). By contrast, Swabia has six. I am sure the Bavarians and Swabians will be able to work something out whereby you see action in the west if that is what you want.

TevashSzat
09-08-2007, 02:23
There will always be a Swabian general on the western front though. Scherer is doing most of the fightning atm, but hes 47 right now and should die in about two more chancellorships so there will be a huge vulnerability in Swabian defences. I think Roadkill wants to be Swabian so he can fight some major battles and I believe that the Bavarians don't have that much fighting in their future.

Actually come to think of it, after Scherer dies, I may end up taking an extended leave from Kotor until like around Thanksgiving after which I hope the game is still going on and I should be not as busy

Cecil XIX
09-08-2007, 02:26
I am taking the save.

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 02:27
Well, I do highly prefer fighting at the west side against France and such, and I don't really have much intrest in fighting the Italians. But if its a high percentage I wont be able to join the Swabians then I guess I have no choice but to join the south, but thats if its impossible for me to join the west.

Stuperman
09-08-2007, 02:29
Bavaria actually boarders the French, Marseilles is Bavarian, and we do owe them for it's defence.

econ21
09-08-2007, 02:35
There will always be a Swabian general on the western front though. Scherer is doing most of the fightning atm,...

I know, Scherer has been doing sterling work. But he does now have Dietrich and Athalwolf nearby in Paris, Wolfgang in Rheims and Hans on the way from the Holy Land. I think the vulnerability, in terms of avatars, in the west is ending.

By contrast, when Gerhard Steffen dies, there will be only two Bavarians in Europe.

Swabia and Franconia have had the lion's share of avatars in the game - I would like to beef up Austria and Bavaria, if possible.

Partly, I am thinking ahead to the "cataclysmic event" we've discussed. We'll vote on this OOC in the next Diet, but if we do go for it, the Bavaria will become a key battleground again (our Italian cities are not so loyal).


Well, I do highly prefer fighting at the west side against France and such, and I don't really have much intrest in fighting the Italians. But if its a high percentage I wont be able to join the Swabians then I guess I have no choice but to join the south, but thats if its impossible for me to join the west.

Let's wait a couple of turns to see if an avatar turns up. If not, we'll hire a recruitable Swabian general for you. I am sure you can persuade the Chancellor, Overknight, to send you to the West to earn your spurs regardless.

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 02:42
Okay, Econ21 its all up to you. I'll join the south if I have to then.

AussieGiant
09-08-2007, 03:04
hang on...

is there a Princess available for marrying right now?

Cecil XIX
09-08-2007, 03:09
Battles fought and won. Upload here:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1290-1.zip

Privateerkev
09-08-2007, 03:52
hang on...

is there a Princess available for marrying right now?

Not yet. King Jan panicked because he thought there was the possibility that there might be a Muslim Duke of Franconia in the future. You have to understand, he's got the "grand crusader" trait, 9 piety, and is King of Outremer so he is pretty sensitive to this sort of thing, no matter how slim the possibility. Once Elberhard assured him that the Duke had to be German, Jan dropped the case with relief. This was totally an IC concocted event due to my character's traits. :yes:

Right now there are three daughters who will become Princess avatars if their dads are alive when they come of age. 2 for the Kaiser and 1 for the Prince. The eldest one from the Kaiser is technically heiress to the Franconian Ducal throne and will pass that title on to her husband whom a Kaiser will pick for her.

AussieGiant
09-08-2007, 04:01
Not yet. King Jan panicked because he thought there was the possibility that there might be a Muslim Duke of Franconia in the future. You have to understand, he's got the "grand crusader" trait, 9 piety, and is King of Outremer so he is pretty sensitive to this sort of thing, no matter how slim the possibility. Once Elberhard assured him that the Duke had to be German, Jan dropped the case with relief. This was totally an IC concocted event due to my character's traits. :yes:

Right now there are three daughters who will become Princess avatars if their dads are alive when they come of age. 2 for the Kaiser and 1 for the Prince. The eldest one from the Kaiser is technically heiress to the Franconian Ducal throne and will pass that title on to her husband whom a Kaiser will pick for her.


Right then...time to start petitioning the two of them for a hand in marriage!!!

Yeah baby!!

Privateerkev
09-08-2007, 04:02
Right then...time to start petitioning the two of them for a hand in marriage!!!

Yeah baby!!

Well, Arnold has a few years to woo them. The girls are all just a couple years old. :laugh4:

AussieGiant
09-08-2007, 04:09
Well, Arnold has a few years to woo them. The girls are all just a couple years old. :laugh4:


Ahh crap really??

It's pretty funny all this marriage stuff. The Dread Duke trying to get hitched is such a contrast, it makes me laugh.

FactionHeir
09-08-2007, 05:14
I thought Stuperman wanted to take whoever the Bavarian girl marries?

Anyway. By the time those princesses come of age, Arnold has maybe 2-4 turns to sire offspring if he's lucky. Imagine the 58 or so year old Arnold with the newly wed 16 year old princess :laugh4:

Tamur
09-08-2007, 05:26
The frightening thing is... I can imagine it! eek!

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 05:27
So, whats going to happen to me?

FactionHeir
09-08-2007, 05:28
You'll get an avatar, one way or another. Just have a few turns of patience :)

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 05:30
Okay thanxs.

Stuperman
09-08-2007, 06:42
I thought Stuperman wanted to take whoever the Bavarian girl marries?

Anyway. By the time those princesses come of age, Arnold has maybe 2-4 turns to sire offspring if he's lucky. Imagine the 58 or so year old Arnold with the newly wed 16 year old princess :laugh4:

Well, I was actually holding off making any decision until Gerhard was dead. Roadkill is free to take any Avatar he wants.

AussieGiant
09-08-2007, 07:55
I thought Stuperman wanted to take whoever the Bavarian girl marries?

Anyway. By the time those princesses come of age, Arnold has maybe 2-4 turns to sire offspring if he's lucky. Imagine the 58 or so year old Arnold with the newly wed 16 year old princess :laugh4:


The lecherous old bastard would sell half his fortune by that time!!!

What a horrid thought :laugh4:

Ituralde
09-08-2007, 09:04
And if he marries the Franconian girl, wouldn't that make him Duke of Austria and Duke of Franconia, with the added possibility of becoming Emperor?! :laugh4:

Well the last is just hyperbole, but still I find it amusing, added to the age difference and all.

Welcome, Roadkill! Don't join Swabia, the Kaiser hates them. :beam:
(Just joking, I love you guys!)

AussieGiant
09-08-2007, 09:08
Arnold used to running most of the Austrian show. I'm sure he would be happy with a line to the Emperorship.

Franconia...someone else can have that :laugh4:

FactionHeir
09-08-2007, 09:12
Yeah right you love us Swabians :inquisitive: :wink:

Actually, it seems the next heir is already decided (as of a few turns ago anyway when I tested using killing)

Would be fun to see Arnold as Duke of two houses though, even if only for a short time.

AussieGiant
09-08-2007, 09:39
Two houses...yeah that would be something to see even if for only a short time.

So at the moment Econ is the heir right?

FactionHeir
09-08-2007, 09:41
Yeah.

Will be Warluster if either econ or Ituralde die.

AussieGiant
09-08-2007, 10:17
Hell, that sucks.

Oh well.

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 13:11
Well if I join Bravia will I get a lot of fighting? becuase if I do I would gladly like to join Bravia.

Stig
09-08-2007, 13:21
Heheh, not really. Bavaria is kinda out of enemies soon
Austria would be the better option.

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 13:26
But if I do join Austria, wouldn't that mean I would be fighting Hungary and Poland? I don't want to fight horse archers :sweatdrop:

Stig
09-08-2007, 13:28
Austria fights Hungary
Franconia fights Denmark, Poland and Russia
Swabia fights France
Bavaria fights Sicily, till they are off the European Mainland (I suspect that after that Bavaria will use one of it's HA's to start aiding other Duchies, attacking Southern France for example)

FactionHeir
09-08-2007, 13:28
You want my avatar? :laugh4:
I don't mind HAs.

econ21
09-08-2007, 13:50
Roadkill, given Stuperman said you can have a free choice of avatars, I can offer you Wilhelm Heidelberg now. He's our only spare avatar and an Austrian. You can read about his traits in the Library. He looks fine to me. He is based in Vienna right now and has an alchemist, making him good with gunpowder weapons. Perhaps you could persuade the Chancellor to create a gun-heavy army for him?

As an Austrian, you would mainly fight Hungarians but also perhaps Poles - Krakow is near to Vienna and Budapest, and there are large Polish armies there.

The Hungarians seem to be fielding a lot of dismounted knights. The Poles used to specialise in Polish nobles, who are like javelin armed knights and so pretty formiddable.

I would advise you to accept Wilhelm, as the East seems a little less crowded with avatars than the West and AussieGiant, the Duke of Austria, is an active role-player so you may find it a lively House. It certainly needs more members.

If you don't want Wilhelm, we will stick with plan A - see what happens in the next two turns and if nothing comes up, hire a recruitable general.

StoneCold
09-08-2007, 13:50
Stig, the Bavarians still got the Spanish to worry about. Unless the fleet is strong enough to sink every fleet they throw at the HRE.

So is it still in the plan to ask for peace or vassalage with the Sicilians once they are kick out of Italy?

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 14:59
Okay Wheilm is okay, he has pretty high peit and loyalty, despite the fact he has 1 command point and 1 chivalrous, but thats fine. My only problem is his age though, oh well I'll take him.

Privateerkev
09-08-2007, 15:36
Franconia...someone else can have that :laugh4:

Aww, you know you want it...

;)

gibsonsg91921
09-08-2007, 15:38
dude, im so glad im franconian. u can hide ur anger and "righteous indignation" behind being cranky from the cold weather

Privateerkev
09-08-2007, 15:47
dude, im so glad im franconian. u can hide ur anger and "righteous indignation" behind being cranky from the cold weather

speak for yourself, Jan has never seen cold weather his whole adult life. He has to use the heat as his excuse. ^_^

Stig
09-08-2007, 16:18
Stig, the Bavarians still got the Spanish to worry about. Unless the fleet is strong enough to sink every fleet they throw at the HRE.
Yeah, but for something like that you only need 1 HA


So is it still in the plan to ask for peace or vassalage with the Sicilians once they are kick out of Italy?
I believe that once was the plan yes


speak for yourself, Jan has never seen cold weather his whole adult life. He has to use the heat as his excuse. ^_^
He can always come back and try to fight Danes ~D
Soldier: "Sir, we must attack now."
Jan: "But it's so cold, and there is no sand. What is this white stuff anyway? Why are my fingers blue? And my sword feels so cold, I don't dare to touch it."

Privateerkev
09-08-2007, 16:38
He can always come back and try to fight Danes ~D
Soldier: "Sir, we must attack now."
Jan: "But it's so cold, and there is no sand. What is this white stuff anyway? Why are my fingers blue? And my sword feels so cold, I don't dare to touch it."

Dude, I don't think Jan has ever shivered in his whole life. The cold would make him grumpy. And a grumpy Jan would not be good for anyone. :no:

And Ansehelm in Outremer would be equally as amusing.

Ansehelm as he talks to a crusader: "so, when it turns to night, it gets cooler right? no? It gets down to 106 degrees!?! Thats cool!?! And what is this stuff that keeps blowing around and getting in my armor? It itches! Sand!?! And what do you mean the King won't let me execute 2400 people at once? He said I'll lose my army command if I do!?! How are we supposed to conquer these lands if we keep releasing prisoners!?! What!?! We aren't allowed to conquer?!?"

:laugh4:

Stig
09-08-2007, 16:45
Ansehelm as he talks to a crusader: "so, when it turns to night, it gets cooler right? no? It gets down to 106 degrees!?! Thats cool!?! And what is this stuff that keeps blowing around and getting in my armor? It itches! Sand!?! And what do you mean the King won't let me execute 2400 people at once? He said I'll lose my army command if I do!?! How are we supposed to conquer these lands if we keep releasing prisoners!?! What!?! We aren't allowed to conquer?!?"

:laugh4:
Let me put it like this:

Ansehelm thinks Rome is a bloody hot place and he thinks the Diet should be move to somewhere above the Alps so he can sit outside in the nice warm snow.

Privateerkev
09-08-2007, 16:50
Ansehelm thinks Rome is a bloody hot place and he thinks the Diet should be move to somewhere above the Alps so he can sit outside in the nice warm snow.

warm snow? o_O

Our characters truly do come from two different worlds...

Jan = :egypt:
Ansehelm = :viking:

I'm jealous, yours animates... ^^

gibsonsg91921
09-08-2007, 16:55
haha all the while peter is sitting up in breslau hunting frostbitten babies for sport

econ21
09-08-2007, 17:00
Okay Wheilm is okay...

Great - I've put you on the playlist.

You might want to make your introductions in the Diet and in the House of Austria thread, then feel free to hang out in the Tavern. It would be a good idea to sign up in the sticky active duty thread. To be on active duty right now, you need to have 1.2 (not Kingdoms or 1.3) loaded and installed Factionheir's modded vice n virtue files (it's very simple and does not stop you playing unmodded games). We will switch to 1.3 at the next Diet (5 turns time).

Wilhelm's first order of business should probably be to get himself knighted. That means being in a stack in a battle. You probably should PM Overknight so that you can head towards Budapest and the 2nd Austrian Household Army.

It's a good idea to periodically upload savegames - you can find them in the uploader (see the filespace sticky:)

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=29005

Ours are all called kotr.... and then have the date. Sort the filespace by date and you will easily find the latest save.

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 17:10
Econ, I'm extremly terrible with this type of stuff, so a lot of the things need to be taught to me, so it would be nice if you or anyone can guide me through each step. for example, I have no idea how to upload or do anything with the save games.

econ21
09-08-2007, 17:49
for example, I have no idea how to upload or do anything with the save games.

No problem. Try to load this savegame:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1290-1.zip

First off, click on the above link and then "save as" into a directory on your computer. It will take 10 or 20 seconds to download

Once you have the file kotr1290-1.zip on your computer, you will need a file to unzip it and extract out the kotr1290-1.sav file compressed within it. Using google or something you can find free trial versions of Winzip or Powerarchiver on the web that can unzip files, if you don't already have such a program. You need to extract the kotr1290-1.sav file into the saves folder of whichever directory you installed M2TW into. (The default folder is C:\Program Files\SEGA\Medieval II Total War)

After that, when you load up M2TW, you should find a kotr1290-1 save in your list of campaign savegames.

If you can manage to load up the save, the next step is probably to install Factionheir's mod. The first post of this thread has the link to the mod files, as well as the readme which tells you exactly how to install the modded files.

Let us know if anything is unclear or you get stuck.

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 17:59
Okay, about the mod, I downloaded it and extracted it, the things extracted should be in a folder called KotrFix correct, or should it be inside the data folder? I also have LoC mod installed will this effect me?

Stig
09-08-2007, 18:20
Okay, about the mod, I downloaded it and extracted it, the things extracted should be in a folder called KotrFix correct, or should it be inside the data folder? I also have LoC mod installed will this effect me?
You don't have to use a modfolder.
I personally do, since I have another mod installed.

econ21
09-08-2007, 18:35
Okay, about the mod, I downloaded it and extracted it, the things extracted should be in a folder called KotrFix correct, or should it be inside the data folder?

What I did was put five into my data folder:
export_descr_character_traits.txt
export_descr_ancillaries.txt
export_descr_vnvs_enums.txt
export_descr_buildings.txt (OPTIONAL - PBM)
descr_campaign_db.xml (OPTIONAL - PBM)

And then two in a folder in my data folder named "text"
export_ancillaries.txt.string.bin
export_VnVs.txt.strings.bin


I also have LoC mod installed will this effect me?

I also have LoC installed, but I think that keeps all its own files in a separate subdirectory, so you should be fine.

FactionHeir
09-08-2007, 19:04
And please do make sure you have 1.27 installed and not 1.26.
Any questions about mods/modding, pm me.

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 19:06
I just downloaded the one listed on the first page, is that the right one?

FactionHeir
09-08-2007, 19:07
Yup it is.

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 19:30
I know I'm asking a million question, sorry, but what shall i do now?

econ21
09-08-2007, 20:39
I know I'm asking a million question, sorry, but what shall i do now?

To recap - have you managed to install Factionheir's mod and load up the save?

If yes, then you are ready to roll. Have a look at the HRE situation and then feel free to contribute to the role-playing threads; maybe even write a story in the story thread about your character. In terms of the M2TW game, you will need to be knighted (that means you avatar serves with distinction under the command of another player), but after that may be called upon to fight battles.

If no, let us know where you are stuck.

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 20:43
To recap - have you managed to install Factionheir's mod and load up the save?

If yes, then you are ready to roll. Have a look at the HRE situation and then feel free to contribute to the role-playing threads; maybe even write a story in the story thread about your character. In terms of the M2TW game, you will need to be knighted (that means you avatar serves with distinction under the command of another player), but after that may be called upon to fight battles.

If no, let us know where you are stuck.

Yup, I have done all the installation and saves. I took a look at the game already as well, and checked out the surrounding, I also realized my avatar is 40 years old.....thats pretty old. So just checking I don't touch the game at all for now right? So basically at this stage I just need to contribute to the threads and such?

econ21
09-08-2007, 20:47
Yup, I have done all the installation and saves. I took a look at the game already as well, and checked out the surrounding, I also realized my avatar is 40 years old.....thats pretty old.

Yes, it's not ideal but avatars tend to live until around 60, so you will see about 40 turns, 4 Diets, which is enough to be worth investing in.


So just checking I don't touch the game at all for now right? So basically at this stage I just need to contribute to the threads and such?

Yes - nobody touches the game unless the Chancellor (Overknight) gives them marching orders. You are free to PM Overknight in character to try to get some action.

Privateerkev
09-08-2007, 20:49
Hi RK!

Yeah, right now you just load up the games to check out the situation. You won't play unless you get into a battle which you probably can't do until you get knighted (which means have your avatar in someone else's battle like econ said)

Until then, catch up on threads as much as you'd like. The Diet and the Tavern are good places to say stuff. PM people in your house. I see you posted in your house thread which is good. Read the stories for fun but thats mainly OOC information. In general, just participate as much as you feel like, have fun, and ask questions on here. :beam:

We're in a kinda slow period right now so please be patient and things will pick up when we get near the next Diet session. Your Duke is quite active in the game and will be more than willing to interact with you. He's quite a colorful character... :yes:

*edit*
oops, econ posted his as I was writing this so mine is a little extraneous.

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 21:03
Yah, I'm loving how "in-character" everyone gets into the game, it makes it so realistic. The writing also is amazing, the creativity, everything. Just another quick question about the stories. Does a special event have to occur, before you can right a story, or can you just write a story about anything, (like can I just make it up) becuase I'm quite bored right now and I don't mind writing one.

TinCow
09-08-2007, 21:36
Write whatever you want, whenever you want. As long as it doesn't do anything to someone else's avatar (unless they agree beforehand) there are pretty few limits on what you can do.


Partly, I am thinking ahead to the "cataclysmic event" we've discussed. We'll vote on this OOC in the next Diet, but if we do go for it, the Bavaria will become a key battleground again (our Italian cities are not so loyal).

If the 'event' occurs, everyone will see action, it doesn't matter where you are. Also, regarding recruitable generals, we will probably have to get used to them if we do the 'event'. The number of provinces will drop sharply, at least for a short time, which will end new births, marriages, and adoptions. In order to keep the number of avatars stable, we will have to use recruitables. We may simply have to accept the fact that the family tree portrait in-game is no longer important; not a serious sacrifice given the rewards that the 'event' will produce. It will also give people the ability to get a new avatar anytime they want in any House they want without the need to wait.

I was originally against recruitables, but the more I see it the more I think we should always have been using them. Being without an avatar can really reduce your immersion in the game. I think we should mod the game to include recruitables from turn 1 in any future game we play.

Ituralde
09-08-2007, 22:15
I was originally against recruitables, but the more I see it the more I think we should always have been using them. Being without an avatar can really reduce your immersion in the game. I think we should mod the game to include recruitables from turn 1 in any future game we play.

While I agree in principle, one should then also mod the birth rates, so that the 'normal' guys still produce offspring. If the many character deaths of this game haven't shown it, there's never too much characters. With many avatars not on the family tree, the urge to get married into royalty gets a lot greater. It will mean something to get on that family tree. If only all female offspring could be married that way.

Anywho, I'm rambling about stuff that won't be important for another six months or so.

Cecil XIX
09-08-2007, 22:36
Also, regarding recruitable generals, we will probably have to get used to them if we do the 'event'. The number of provinces will drop sharply, at least for a short time, which will end new births, marriages, and adoptions. In order to keep the number of avatars stable, we will have to use recruitables. We may simply have to accept the fact that the family tree portrait in-game is no longer important; not a serious sacrifice given the rewards that the 'event' will produce. It will also give people the ability to get a new avatar anytime they want in any House they want without the need to wait.

I was originally against recruitables, but the more I see it the more I think we should always have been using them. Being without an avatar can really reduce your immersion in the game. I think we should mod the game to include recruitables from turn 1 in any future game we play.

I disagree, generals are simply inferior to family members. Furthermore, if the number of avatars doesn't decrease then that eliminates a good deal of that actual cataclysm. Increasing the birth and marriage rates makes more sense as a work-around since it keeps the family tree intact and retains the randomness that helps so much in creating good drama.

More importantly, I think the integrity of the family tree needs to be maintained. Perhaps some small sacrifices should be made now since we are already so far in, but I would be very much against allowing recruitable generals in the next PBEM. It's is a great thing to be able to look at each entry in the family tree and see a real personality with goals, successes, quirks, and failures. That can't be done with recruitable generals.

Basically, we shouldn't make the game accomodate us. It should be the other way around. The OOC dictates of the game should be the IC wrath of God.

I'd also like to know if recruiting generals fills up a slot that could have gone to a family member.

EDIT: I just read Ituralde's post, and he makes a lot of sense. It gives me a good idea for a compromise in the form of a 'House of Commons' for generals and a 'House of Lords' for family members.

Stig
09-08-2007, 22:51
I agree with Cecil, normal generals are generals. They are of lower nobility, not from the Royal Family. They are proven commanders, experienced maybe, that's as you should see them. They aren't family members, and unless they marry into a family they will never be able to become Duke or the like.

I'd say they can't even become counts.

Ferret
09-08-2007, 22:52
I'm not sure about recruiting generals from day one for two reasons:
1. This may heavily unbalance the game if we have lots of people wanting to join.
2. If we do start a new one I think it should be on Kingdoms as either New Spain or the Teutonic order (as most people will have it by then) and in most of the campaigns new generals pop up quite often (especially as New Spain) so there wouldn't be much need for recruitment

Edit: and I like the idea of the House of commons and of Lords and yh it would be cool if they had to be adopted or married into the family to become anything higher than a knight

Stig
09-08-2007, 23:05
Don't agree that the new PBM should be on Kingdoms, not everyone has it, sides it only has 6 factions or so per campaign.

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 23:09
I agree with stig. Kingdoms definatly shouldn't be the new PBM, as stig said, not everyone will get it. I know I won't because of the Securom issue. I also think the campaigns in Kingdoms might be too small for a PBM.

OverKnight
09-08-2007, 23:13
There are many interesting mods developed for M2 while kotr has been going on. Deus Lo Vult, Lands to Conquer and Stainless Steel for example. Many of them include Blood Broads and Bastards like title systems which would add RP flair to another PBM.

In my opinion, starting a PBM on a new game is chancey. There are too many unknowns. In KotR for example, we've coped with bugs and game play issues. Also the general level of skill of the players is beyond the game to meet, we've had to seriously intervene to keep it challenging. I've given countless sums to the AI to keep the game interesting.

Carefully choosing a good mod on a stable game with maybe a few tweaks of our own would address many of these problems.

Still, I'd like to see KotR continue.

Stig
09-08-2007, 23:22
I know I won't because of the Securom issue.
In that case you will get a problem.
As soon as someone with Kingdoms gets to fight a battle, or after the next Diet session we will move to patch 1.3, which also has Securom.

OverKnight
09-08-2007, 23:24
If enough people have concerns about 1.3, perhaps the issue of upgrading should be put to an OOC vote.

GeneralHankerchief
09-08-2007, 23:26
What exactly does 1.3 have that 1.2 doesn't in terms of gameplay?

I mean, an obvious drawback for 1.3 seems to be SecuRom, which, IIRC, locks its tentacles on your computer and refuses to let go. I'm really, really iffy on that point.

FH's mod has definitely improved the gameplay from an RP point of view. Do we really need to graduate to 1.3 just to get a better gaming experience?

Also, welcome RoadKill. ~:wave:

Stig
09-08-2007, 23:33
1.3 changes nothing about the gameplay, but it makes Kingdoms compatible with vanilla.

Since dual installations seem impossible, atleast for a noob like me we have to do it. I have not bought Kingdoms to gather dust on my desk. I have it installed and will keep it installed. I'm not uninstalling it everytime I need to fight a battle.

Securom does nothing, all about it is blown up, and mostlikely the thread has been made by someone who didn't succeed in cracking the game.

RoadKill
09-08-2007, 23:34
Thanks GH.

I never knew 1.3 also had securom. As Overknight suggested I think we need a vote, I am totally against having something installed to my computer without my permission, and to make it worse make it so its almost impossible to take it off.

Edit: Response to Stig didn't see it
Well, I would like to trust you, but the discussion about it pretty much convinced me that Securom is bad.

Stig
09-08-2007, 23:37
I'm against a vote.
I payed money for Kingdoms, and I'm not throwing that money away. End of story really.

Privateerkev
09-08-2007, 23:38
Well, we seem to be debating a number of issues here at one time. I'll give my overall "vision" for the game and then try to address all of the issues one by one.

This game is a constant struggle for balance between "playing the game we have" and "making the game we want to play". This is where the "purists" and the "modders" seem to battle it out for what direction KotR will go. While I am most definitely a "purist", I try to strive for a middle ground. And that is "making the game the most fun for the most people."

I was against recruitable generals because I am a purist. I rather go with what the game gives us. We can be electors until an avatar spawns and thats what I am going to do when Jan dies. However, I see the argument for allowing recruitables to fill in the holes that are in the family tree. But, I am against relying on them entirely. And I am also against having them from the beginning. They should be a last resort, not the norm. To me, having the recruitables fill gaps in the tree allows that middle ground between us "purists" and "modders" and allows the most people to have the most fun.

I see KotR having tons of life in it and it may be premature to talk about the next game but I will indulge some of you and give my opinion. I think we should pick a game that will be the most fun for the most people and then pick a faction accordingly. I think we should have no mods or just the minimal amount of mods to facilitate game play. The "purists" like how no mods allow us to react to the crazy AI and heir mechanics and the "modders" want to show the computer who is boss and simply mod us the exact game they want to play. There should be a middle ground between the two that allows the most people to have the most fun.

As for the patch, I think the 1.2 patch is working fine and I am holding off on Kingdoms because my schooling could not survive Kingdoms coming into my life. Also, the idea of putting something on my computer that takes over a part of it fills me with dread. But, if the majority want 1.3, or Econ wants it, then I'll download the patch. Again, it assaults my "purist" tendencies yet fills that nice "middle ground" I keep talking about.

Stig
09-08-2007, 23:41
I think the 1.2 patch is working fine
In that case 1.3 will also work fine, as it changes nothing. It just makes sure you can load my saves.

takes over a part of it
It does not take anything over, it just sits there, doing nothing but checking if your disk is legal.