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Bijo
09-09-2007, 18:52
Will security measures be installed for Empire: Total War (such as Safedisc, SecuROM, CD keys, etc.)? If yes, what kind(s) of measures and how will these affect customers?

Galapagos
09-09-2007, 19:00
Well copy protection will only affect customers.They will not affect the ones who just take the game ilegally so i think there should not be copy protection..

Mikeus Caesar
09-09-2007, 19:13
As i've seen over the last year or so, copy protection is useless. It doesn't stop games being copied, and inconveniences honest customers. Companies should just give up caring about pirates and start caring about making sure the games they deliver are good quality.

Caius
09-09-2007, 20:37
No Starforce.

Omanes Alexandrapolites
09-09-2007, 20:48
Obviously, no copying system is going to stop the pirates - if they want to bypass it, eventually they will. Despite this, I have no preference as to whether copy protection is included, as long as it isn't intrusive - after all, not having any wish to copy or pirate games, it doesn't really effect me.

FactionHeir posted some simple, but potentially effective ways of providing extra incentives for customers to buy the game at the bottom of this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1659162#post1659162). I don't really mind whether they do this or not - I buy the game, not additional materialistic accessories for it.

Caius
09-09-2007, 20:55
FactionHeir posted some simple, but potentially effective ways of providing extra incentives for customers to buy the game at the bottom of this post.

Those are good incentives.
Some games come with useful guides for newbie players, as C&C Renegade, and I found it very useful when I was a newbie at that game. I think CA should do this.

Zenicetus
09-09-2007, 23:00
I voted "yes, but not too invasive." Any CP at all is only harming paying customers, not pirates. So in the abstract, I'm totally against it, and I preferentially support developers like Stardock (Galactic Civilizations 2) who have abandoned it. However, being practical about this, I know it's easier for a small, independent outfit that self-publishes like Stardock to take the high ground, and it's less likely with a behemoth like Sega.

So I'll settle for non-invasive, non-arrogant methods that don't leave behind potential security risks and hidden files after the game is un-installed, like the current SecureRom installation for M2TW:Kingdoms does.

Trax
09-10-2007, 11:35
No, because it's absolutely useless.

sapi
09-10-2007, 12:33
Bethesda didn't go broke without it on Oblivion.

It will have very little effect on sales, but perhaps a negative one on community, if harsh measures are included.

alpaca
09-10-2007, 12:52
Bethesda didn't go broke without it on Oblivion.

It will have very little effect on sales, but perhaps a negative one on community, if harsh measures are included.
In fact I'd argue that removing it would even have a positive influence. Ok, the DRM lobby would like to bash you over the head but a lot of players would hail you for it, including me. From a PR point of view I believe it's the way to go before everyone does it :yes:
And I'm almost 100% sure that it won't affect sales negatively. Practically all people buy the game because they think it'll be good and want to do the right thing not because they can't pirate it.
I'd even argue that of all the players who buy TW games the number of people who'd rather pirate it than buy it but are deterred from that by copy protection is definitely negligible (that is I believe it's lower than 0.1%)

sapi
09-10-2007, 13:07
If someone was going to pirate the game, copy protection would make absolutely no difference...well, it might waste ten more seconds of their life finding a copy that has it bypassed, but that would be it.

I agree that the smart PR thing to do would be to ditch it; but I wouldn't like to be the one to have to sell that to the execs :grin2:

Matty
09-10-2007, 13:28
The local counterfeit market had Kingdoms one day after release. Still the shops selling originals don't have it. I fear I am about to crack... (ho ho)

Jeroen Hill
09-10-2007, 15:03
Whats the use of a copy protection anyway. People who dont buy the game but download it get a working crack with the warez release in 99% of the cases. And people who did buy it sometimes get to deal with annoyances, securom+deamon tools anybody?

A copy protection is merely a small delay for warez groups to crack it, thats all.

So imho, save yourself money and drop the copy protection. It's not going to stop people from downloading it.

Vuk
09-10-2007, 16:05
lol, Star Force is still not letting me access my Task Manager. :P CopyProtection is a load of BS. I have never pirated a game in my life, but with very little difficulty could get my hands on Kingdoms w/out paying for it, or any of those darn Ubi games. I know a guy who buys games with copy protection, then breaks it for the heck of it. (He doesn't even distribute it, just likes to be able to do it)

The only people who it could turn off would have to be absolute idiots. I would love to see the sucsess rate for copyprotection. I can tell you first hand what it does to lawabiding gamers computers. (The reason I am not going to ever buy another Ubi game)


Vuk

Laman
09-10-2007, 17:43
Voted no, since as already said, it does not hinder the pirates at all. Might slow them down a few minutes or hours at best. Filthy pirates. If copy protection, non-invasive stuff. Otherwise it only annoys the legitimate users.

Daithi MacGuillaCathair
09-10-2007, 18:27
Definitly no and if they include stuff which will interfear with other programs i would be 99% tempted to get the cracked version rather than the actual game.

there is no point, anyone who cant figure out how to get a pirate version probably cant play the game anyway.

NagatsukaShumi
09-10-2007, 23:52
As its the industry I will be working in I voted yes, but with no intrusions etc. I think if the company wants to TRY and protect their game they should, they aren in it to make money, as we all are.

TevashSzat
09-11-2007, 00:01
I say, go for simple copy protection like cd keys and minor things that prevents the dvd from being easily copied.

This will prevent the majority of the common people who does it the old fashion way by burning discs and won't go dl it from the internet.

For those who just wants to pirate the game, no amount of copy protection will stop them and excessive cp will just irritate everyone.

sapi
09-11-2007, 13:09
The next working copy protection scheme (for a SP game, that is) will be the first, anyway :grin2:

ninjahboy
09-12-2007, 10:10
if its a great game (which im sure it will be) such as oblivion, then there really isnt any need for copy protection. People will buy it for its value

Daveybaby
09-12-2007, 11:48
Copy protection is a pointless waste of everybody's time and money (except for companies such as starforce securom etc who make a fortune selling snake oil to gullible executives), so i'd much rather i didnt have to pay extra for the game so that a percentage can go to a bunch of con artists.

But as long as its not the intrusive crap theyve used with kingdoms i wouldnt be too bothered. However, if they even attempt to go the whole '5 installs and that's your lot' route i wont be buying a copy, thats for sure.

hellenes
09-12-2007, 13:49
The ONLY working copy protection is a MP oriented game...end of story.

Whacker
09-15-2007, 19:50
Simple, non-invasive, non-spyware, non-rootkit, simple cd-check type DRM is fine and honestly to be expected. Things that destroy my hardware, take over my system, constantly call home, require me to sign up for things, 'lock' my installation to a specific computer, limit how many times I can install, etc... are all reasons to boycott games. Unfortunate that Bioshock fell into this category...

In terms of multiplayer, keys are the best way to go, checked at a centralized server when a one enters the initial lobby. Valve had this idea right with WON, and f'd it all up with Steam (DRM riddle spyware). id Software got and had/has this right with the Quake series.

As sapi had the excellent point, the good ol' boys at Beth certainly didn't go broke on Oblivion. I've also heard tales from them about how much they've "projected" they lost to piracy in sales $, which unsurprisingly doesn't remotely jive with even the most liberal models based on the best statistics we have. The simple fact is that piracy does not make near enough dent financially as the industry would want us to believe.

Bottom line is there will always be pirates, what sells a game and buys the loyalty of the customer base is first and foremost having an amazing game, and having an excellent working relationship with the real communities comprised of the active gamers and supporters.

Belgolas
09-16-2007, 20:06
As long as it is not like BioSHock I am fine.

Dhampir
09-17-2007, 03:49
While I wholeheartedly agree that copy protection is quite useless for stopping piracy, it does serve a purpose.

It's good PR. More copy-protection- the less chance that the government will feel the need to step in and screw things up completely.

So to save the game industry from being ruined by government regulation- let's just be patient. Take a deep breath and accept a small burden for a great reward.












Disclaimer: This post was fueled by a lack of sleep and four bottles of a really decent pils.

Mikeus Caesar
09-17-2007, 09:23
Dhampir - all i can say to that is this - eh?

Why would lack of copy-protection be bad pr that would lead to government regulation?

Vuk
09-17-2007, 15:39
While I wholeheartedly agree that copy protection is quite useless for stopping piracy, it does serve a purpose.

It's good PR. More copy-protection- the less chance that the government will feel the need to step in and screw things up completely.

So to save the game industry from being ruined by government regulation- let's just be patient. Take a deep breath and accept a small burden for a great reward.


The government would not step in. It cannot force people to include certain types of copy-protection, etc. (If they don't want to, that is their own risk...we all know how well copy-protection works anyway. :bigcry: )



let's just be patient

Tell that to the three DVD drives I've had to buy in the last few years. Various games' copy protection software has messed with my computer so bad that it is not funny. I use different computers to do business on because of that crap. CD keys and all that other stuff is great (a bit annoying, but I dare say we will all get over it) if they want to protect their stuff, but it has gotten to the point where if you install the game you may have to start worrying about protecting YOUR stuff. That is ridiculous. As much as love the Splinter Cell series I have started boycotting UbiSoft (and will continue to do so unless whatever they replace StarForce with isn't invasing or destructive) and don't want to do that with Sega. (as I love the TW games) I got SecuRom infected Kingdoms because I learned that I already had been infected by another game, but am going to be buying a leet new gaming rig soon and am not going to install anything with that crap on it. I hope that doesn't mean that I won't be able to install Empire:TW.

:thumbsdown: Down with copyprotection! :thumbsdown:
:unitedstates: Long live the US!!! :unitedstates:

:beam:

Vuk

The Foolish Horseman
09-17-2007, 19:30
Ah Copy Protection! Or should it be called 10 second delay for honest customers. Ever since daemon tools was realesed (google or wiki it) Copy protection has not been a problem for pirates. In fact it never really was.


I admit on the off hand to dabbling in Pirate Copys of other games not worth paying for like Alpha Centauri, But never with total war.



CA: Putting Copy protection on would just be a waste of time, disk space and work

Neoncat
09-22-2007, 10:36
I say nay. Copy protection is only annoyance for honest customers and no problem for pirates. Sometimes it even can be major annoyance for honest customers and still no problem for pirates. It won't even stop casual copying, because all those cracks are available on net.

With programs its not even like in war, you build walls to get it more costly to conquer your lands, because theres no cost on other side. Most people just crack games for fun. Its like youre building a fine wall that cracker will crush with his hammer and have fun with it. I just can't see reason in copy protections.

Daveybaby
09-22-2007, 11:24
I admit on the off hand to dabbling in Pirate Copys of other games not worth paying for like Alpha Centauri, But never with total war.
I take offense to this. Not the piracy thing - but saying AC is not worth paying for!??!?!??!?!?!?

Dude, that's so wrong it's not even funny. One of the best TBS of all time (still better than Civ4 IMO).

Lord Zimoa of Flanders
09-22-2007, 17:49
Piracy is a real problem for many developers, some very talented companies had to close the books in recent years because of the high investments and development costs to produce good games. When a big part of the revenue is flowing away due to illegal copies and piracy, I can understand protection is required and desired by many developers.

Although it will always be a cat and mouse game. I wished it should not be a necessity in the future, but game protection is something we should better get used to as piracy will never be halted.

LZ

hellenes
09-24-2007, 00:17
Piracy is a real problem for many developers, some very talented companies had to close the books in recent years because of the high investments and development costs to produce good games. When a big part of the revenue is flowing away due to illegal copies and piracy, I can understand protection is required and desired by many developers.

Although it will always be a cat and mouse game. I wished it should not be a necessity in the future, but game protection is something we should better get used to as piracy will never be halted.

LZ


Now I see games without any crazy copy protection selling like crazy...(WarcraftIII comes to mind)...
Plus your post is contradictory why should the honest customer be troubled when it solves nothing?
As I said in my previous post: A 100% pirate proof game is a MP game...

Juvenal
09-24-2007, 18:07
When you buy a game that won't install without phoning home, you are effectively being cheated out of your purchase because you are in reality only renting the game for an unknown period (i.e. until the publisher withdraws the authentication service).

I still play games that are ten or more years old. What are the chances that current publishers' authentication servers are still going to be available ten years from now?

I had been so looking forward to BioShock - being a System Shock 1 & 2 fan of long standing. But now I find that I can't actually buy the game at all - I would only be allowed to "visit" it until the publisher gets fed up with me.

There must be a better way than this.

ixidor
09-26-2007, 19:57
Completly agreed. I don't like copy pretection, it only annoys the honest and dedicated buyers, that's all. After all, no matter the game you can always get it from net a couple of days later, so what's the point? In fact, all that protection will not only be useless to pirates as it can low the sells, because i believe that even honest people can say "for the hell with SecRoom!" and simply download it without pay and without all that annoyance from privacy and breaks on their computers.

Whacker
09-27-2007, 06:16
Hi LZ


Piracy is a real problem for many developers, some very talented companies had to close the books in recent years because of the high investments and development costs to produce good games. When a big part of the revenue is flowing away due to illegal copies and piracy, I can understand protection is required and desired by many developers.
I don't mean to be rude, but statements like these from the gaming industry are completely contrary to what I've read on realistic projections of numbers of pirated games. It's also my suspicion that sometimes when bad sales are blamed on piracy, it's actually on the fact that the game in question is miserable and really didn't sell well at all, hence finding a scapegoat. Further, these numbers assume that a pirated game means the individual did not buy the game after downloading it, in a sort of "try before you buy" routine. I know of some publishers who've closed down, but most of those were due to horrible mismanagement (Interplay, anyone?). As the old saying goes, there's lies, damn lies, and statistics.


Although it will always be a cat and mouse game. I wished it should not be a necessity in the future, but game protection is something we should better get used to as piracy will never be halted.
That's true, but as anyone can see, even the worst copy protection mechanisms do absolutely nothing to stop the pirates. Bioshock has one of the worst variants of Securom installed, and it only took the pirates 2 days to fully crack it. The only one that I'm aware of that hasn't been cracked is the 'worst' type of Starforce which is implemented on the expansion for Lock-on Modern Air Combat, and it's apparently due to extreme lack of popularity, not for want of trying. Build a "better" armor, and the other side will build a better gun. The problem here is that the "better" armor (copy protection) is now at the point where it's becoming a problem for the average joe consumer (Starforce destroys hardware), and people are becoming more aware as technology know-how increases of what exactly is happening to their systems when they install this spyware and garbage.

I do hope that you and your company consider this when you release the upcoming game which I'm still anticipating. Doing something like Stardock or Moonpod where you don't have cd checks but simple key activation. Both companies had very successful, profitable games, and doing as such will go miles to improving your relationship with your to-be customer base. You'll always lose some to piracy, but as history indicates, there's no copy protection that'll stop it and the tools are freely available. Make a game that's worthwhile and maintain a good working relationship with us, and we'll sing your praises to heavens and spread the word to buy the game. Stand up and be an example to the big publishers that you don't need to treat your fans (customers) like criminals, it's been done before and you can do the same. And as always best of luck.

Off my soapbox now.

Cheers

Lord Zimoa of Flanders
09-27-2007, 08:56
I do hope that you and your company consider this when you release the upcoming game which I'm still anticipating.

My statement was made on a personal basis, that I understand why copy protection is incorperated. I did not state that I was for copy protection. In fact I voted a big no in the poll as it is not a solution, the music industry proofed it is no solution at all. I just claim that there will always be game publishers who will use it. The decision to include any kind of protection is largely the responsibility of a game publisher, as a game developer I would not promote it though.


Doing something like Stardock or Moonpod where you don't have cd checks but simple key activation. Both companies had very successful, profitable games, and doing as such will go miles to improving your relationship with your to-be customer base. You'll always lose some to piracy, but as history indicates, there's no copy protection that'll stop it and the tools are freely available. Make a game that's worthwhile and maintain a good working relationship with us, and we'll sing your praises to heavens and spread the word to buy the game. Stand up and be an example to the big publishers that you don't need to treat your fans (customers) like criminals, it's been done before and you can do the same. And as always best of luck.

Exactly, totally agree.


LZ

kambiz
09-27-2007, 12:15
As I said in my previous post: A 100% pirate proof game is a MP game...Although I'm agree with you that Online MP is an obstacle for so called pirates ,But do you really think that making a cracked server is impossible???
search cracked server for BattleField Series ,Call of Duty series ,Enemy territory ,CS ,... and you'll see :laugh4:

However Still I think the best way is MP(even if it means 1-2 months delay for pirates...):yes:

Regards

Zenicetus
09-27-2007, 18:55
Although I'm agree with you that Online MP is an obstacle for so called pirates ,But do you really think that making a cracked server is impossible???
search cracked server for BattleField Series ,Call of Duty series ,Enemy territory ,CS ,... and you'll see :laugh4:

It depends on how much of the game content is running on the server. If it's a largely client-based game with a server used only as a simple gateway for MP, then it's a lot easier to crack. A heavily server-based MMORPG game like WoW is much harder. The most I've seen done with WoW are occasional attempts at client-side cheats for advantage in the game, like bots for gold-farming. Those are quickly shut down, due to the game's frequent patch schedule. I don't think WoW has ever been cracked in the conventional sense of getting the game and continuing monthly access, without paying for it.

So yeah, that's the ideal anti-piracy model, but it doesn't work for all types of games.

kambiz
09-27-2007, 19:40
I don't like WoW (I'm not the fan of MMORPG :tongue:) but we also have WoW cracked server here :wink:

Zenicetus
09-28-2007, 22:37
I don't like WoW (I'm not the fan of MMORPG :tongue:) but we also have WoW cracked server here :wink:

Okay, let me rephrase what I said like this:

I doubt that WoW has been cracked in such a way that everyone is getting the same game experience -- regular class updates via patches, bugfix patches, seasonal events, new content, quests and dungeons etc. -- on the same timeline as everyone on the official, paid-for servers is getting it.

It would also be interesting to know (although this isn't the place for that info, just posing a hypothetical here) how well a cracked WoW server can handle 24/7 uptime, heavy traffic loads, and scalability. Not that Blizzard has always handled that well. The early days were rocky, but the last year or so it's been the most solid service of its type that I've ever seen.

ixidor
09-29-2007, 11:51
I think that's true actually. I had some friends of mine who were most of the times playing in cracked servers. True, they said most of the servers had some big bugs and all, and that the paid service was better, but they could play it and retain the essence of the game in cracked ones.

kambiz
09-29-2007, 14:47
@Zenicetus
As I said ,I don't play MMORPG (Thus don't play WoW) so I don't know how the server works. But I know those who like it play it there:smiley:

hellenes
10-03-2007, 20:42
Although I'm agree with you that Online MP is an obstacle for so called pirates ,But do you really think that making a cracked server is impossible???
search cracked server for BattleField Series ,Call of Duty series ,Enemy territory ,CS ,... and you'll see :laugh4:

However Still I think the best way is MP(even if it means 1-2 months delay for pirates...):yes:

Regards

I undestand what youre saying...you meant teh private servers that offer 10% of the experience of the official...with HUGE amounts of lag, underpopulated with donators that buy off the crooked and corrupt gms...
MP games are MUCH more pirate proof than the MOST copy protected SP game...

Freedom Onanist
10-04-2007, 13:46
When you buy a game that won't install without phoning home, you are effectively being cheated out of your purchase because you are in reality only renting the game for an unknown period (i.e. until the publisher withdraws the authentication service).Absolutely. A royal pain and danger. An example would buying music on subscription, as customers of Virgin Music found out when they were told that their song collections would become unplayable once the store stops operating.

No copy protection should be there, however, I think a CD key will be. I find that particularly annoying as I am one of the most disorganised people I know. The moment I buy a game, disks, manuals and jewel cases all part company only to be found again separately!

Daithi MacGuillaCathair
10-06-2007, 11:57
wish they would print the cd key on the cd, their by never loosing it. all other forms of copy protection seem to be intrusive and more hastle for the honest customer.

hoccalugee
10-06-2007, 14:17
take copy-protection out of the budget. save the money, make the game better, earn more customers. customer loyalty is number one. give the developers/employees a raise too. maybe make some neato mod tools. yeah! use the extra budget to make great mod tools.

Ossie The Great
11-27-2007, 14:54
take copy-protection out of the budget. save the money, make the game better, earn more customers. customer loyalty is number one. give the developers/employees a raise too. maybe make some neato mod tools. yeah! use the extra budget to make great mod tools.

yes, i agree.

Many of the copy-right protections on cds are useless, so i would say there is no point bothering with the copy right protection.

either way thuogh i do not mind.

P.S It would be great though if they did release loads of tools

Daithi MacGuillaCathair
11-29-2007, 19:27
Damn , just installed a game which had a Securom , a messgae came up saying something like you have deamon tools your a naughty boy, and now my computer is royal buggered, i cant install anything. i didnt think securoms were supposed to do that ???????????

Fallen Angel
11-30-2007, 20:26
I'd perfer ome system where to register the game, you need the CD in the drive (if you bought the game in a store. This would keep employees from copying down registration keys from other Jewel Cases and handing them out to friends like party favors*.)

If you bought it off online direct distro then you should get a key via email/smailmail.



*I bought GalCivII twice from :daisy: and both times my key (just written on the back of the jewel case) didn't work. :daisy: takes the CD's out of the cases.... so ya, I'm paranoid about :daisy: stealing half my purchased product.

caravel
12-04-2007, 13:32
Unfortunately those that care about copy protection and would boycott a game because of it are in the minority. Most people are entirely oblivious to it and this is what devlopers such as CA count on.

Personally I hate any kind of copy protection, even that which requires me to keep a CDROM in the drive. Also it is wrong to prevent legitimate licenced users from making a backup copy.

A license key based system with an authentication code that can be verified by an automated phone service would be the best option. Having to be online in order to get a game registered and working is also undesirable, especially for those without an internet connection.

Vuk
12-04-2007, 15:42
especially for those without an internet connection.

It can also be a pain in the bottom if you have a 56k. What I really hate is having to buy RTW 3 times. :furious3: