The Taxshashilan satrapy-a mod request

[Malik of Sindh]

EB:The East
Me ,Admetos,and most probably Pharnakes are going to make a mod called Europa Barbarorum:The East.This mod will cut everything west of Greece,add a few new factions,extend the mod to india,add atleast 2x more regions in the East.
Faction ideas:
Galatians
Cyrenaica
Mauryans(we can't go without this one)

[Admetos]

This is no easy feat in EB. You would need to change the government system, seeing as Saka is nomadic, change the culture type, change the EDB extensively (which in vanilla might not be that hard, but try changing EB's by hand and it is virtually impossible), and lots of other things which I can't think of at the moment because I really should be asleep. Basically though, you adding a completely new faction, how are the Saka Indian in any way. I know they have the reforms, but they are still the Saka using Indian units, they don't changed culture and what not.

PS. Everything I've written is probably wrong because like I said, I really should be in bed. *looks for sleeping smiley*

[Malik of Sindh]

Oh please don't kill me like this,as you see Im extremely inspired,Im inspired even more than wiith BC.

[Malik of Sindh]

Also,we can use Casse for conversion.We just copy the goverments from say,Seleucids and just rename them.Is changing culture really that hard?
My wasted 50th post...

[KuKulzA]

New Units & Buildings suggestions? they'll need 'indian names'... maybe in Prakrit since Asoka spread that language throughout India right?

Indian Chariot (4 wheeled and big/strong, 4-6 horses and used for charges)
(super) War Elephant (armored but also with swords attached to tusks? a super expensive but much deadlier and less panicky elephant)
Rajput cavalry (regional skirmisher cavalry, the only real good cavalry of the Indians so-to-speak)
Uttarapathians (i heard they made the core of Mauryan army... maybe make them a good all-around soldier but not particularly fine... and make the Guild warriors better shock troops)
Jainism buildings
Buddhism buildings part of a reform

I also heard that archery was a 'noble' art in India at the time? perhaps the Generals can be archer/heavy infantry?

and reform ideas?

Time of Buddhism - 261?
After the Kalinga campaign our great ruler Asoka has seen the traumas or war and bloodshed. Buddhism is now spread, and all lands are encouraged to make monuments, wildlife reserves, hospitals, and pillars that speak of Buddhism and peace. Reforms are made the peace is ensured with wise civil rule.

Death of Asoka - 232
Woe! Our great leader has died! Friend of all castes, or Buddhists, Jainists, and of Hindus! Friend of the farmer and the soldier! Incompetent princes rule after him. But the army is still mainly deployed in the northwest and so we benefit from the presence of the military, as previously disbanded soldiers take up arms again...

Collapse of Mauryan Empire - 184
The great unified empire is gone... but now we are free to contend with the westerners and steppe nomads as we wish. Warring and contact has allowed us to adopt some of their warfare. We now can train better horsemen, and have trained Indo-greeks.




just some thoughts


and i say get rid of Casse for the Mauryans

[Malik of Sindh]

Hmm,KuKulZa do you know some things bout modding?Or any things writen to help people learn to mod?

[KuKulzA]

Hmm,KuKulZa do you know some things bout modding?Or any things writen to help people learn to mod?
if I did I'd be modding in an Indian faction :laugh4:

[Malik of Sindh]

lol now this idea is in my sig.Its also in my sig in the twc forums.So if anyone has any documents on how to mod please pm me.

[Admetos]

Originally Posted by Malik of Sindh
Is changing culture really that hard?

Its not that you would be changing the culture, but for an Indian faction, I guess you'd have to create a new one and IIRC, there's no room for a new one.

[Malik of Sindh]

Hmm,why nod use the same culture Pahlava uses?Lol..Its 2 hours till school..curse this idea,now ill be sleeping in school.

[Admetos]

Originally Posted by Malik of Sindh
curse this idea,now ill be sleeping in school.

Don't feel so ashamed my friend, we all do it. :laugh4:

I don't think you could use the Pahlava culture, I'd think it would use the same culture as the other nomadic factions.

As for learning how to mod, check out the Scriptorium, theres tons of stuff in there.

[Malik of Sindh]

No,Pahlava uses the eastern culture(i think) and Hayasdan surely does.

[Admetos]

That sounds right, although can you compare Eastern to Indian?

[Malik of Sindh]

Err...What you see is what you get.We don't have alternatves right now.Ill start studying at scriptorium tommorow,but im still looking for people to join me in this huge task.

[Admetos]

I'll certainly help you, but like you say, no alternatives about the culture.

[Malik of Sindh]

Im really happy you'll join me.I hope we will get this thing going.Im a pessimist so don't be hard on me,or I might give up.BTW how to change thred tittle?

[Admetos]

I guess it could be possible to use some Indian units from Alexander aswell.

[russia almighty]

....I'd borrow units from the RTR Indian mod . They look better than the Alexander stuff .

[Malik of Sindh]

Too bad I don't have alexander.Thats my last post today,I have to sleep some.This things getting seriuos now.BTW admetos do you have x-fire?

[Admetos]

Yeah, I suggested Alex because I don't really think RTR compares to EB so I've never really played it much, but thats not to say it dosen't improve on vanilla, becasue it does vastly. But I'm going off-topic, I guess we could have a root around and find some cool Indian units anywhere, but I'll have a look at RTR some time.

EDIT: Yes I do have X-Fire - megasadmetos.

Also I have Alex, re-installing it now actually, so no worries there.

[russia almighty]

.... Don't start an RTR vs. EB topic . The Indian mod for RTR isn't supported by RTR for tech support or anything . The dude who did it is(or was , his work could have gone to hell for all I know) an excellent modeller/skinner/whatever . If this mod goes beyond the discussion stage he'd probably jump for joy someone was asking to use his work .

[Admetos]

I didn't even know there was and Indian mod for RTR. Im not trying to start an EB vs RTR, hence the reason I stopped when I did. But lets leave this thread for the mini-mod. :2thumbsup:

[Malik of Sindh]

First post updated..

[Malik of Sindh]

Yeah, I suggested Alex because I don't really think RTR compares to EB so I've never really played it much, but thats not to say it dosen't improve on vanilla, becasue it does vastly. But I'm going off-topic, I guess we could have a root around and find some cool Indian units anywhere, but I'll have a look at RTR some time.

EDIT: Yes I do have X-Fire - megasadmetos.

Also I have Alex, re-installing it now actually, so no worries there.


Yes,I think ill download RTR soon too,to review what they done in theyr mod about indians.

[Admetos]

Malik, here's (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115918&highlight=indian+mod) a link to the Indian Mod.

[Malik of Sindh]

I really like Elephants as bodyguards for generals,but we'll need too fix elephant hitpoints,as theyre only 2 now.I think we need to make indian levy archer and spearmen exetremely cheap for Indians so they can spam them,like they historicaly did(im pretty sure).Also,I think the names will be a problem since I know nothing of them.I already sent a pm to kukulza bout that,I hope he'll help us.

[KuKulzA]

RTR Mauryan Empire:
It seems to me they over-did the elephants but that might be just me... and the chariots aren't exactly right, but it looks good overall...
________________________________________

I'd say that the Indian faction should have these qualities:

very effective administration in terms of keeping the peace
ability to spam huge armies compared to Western counterparts
focus on strong elephant, heavy chariots, archery, and professional soldiers, with weak infantry and cavalry


time periods/reforms being...

Expansion of Asoka
Spread of Buddhism - 261?
Death of Asoka - 232
Collapse of Mauryan Empire - 184

And to be historically accurate this faction would control Taksashila, Opiana, and Patala. The faction shouldn't be called Mauryan Empire since its only a fraction of it, a northwestern border... but perhaps it can be called a Prakrit name for the region?


if there's to be an Indian faction mod to be made, I want it to be up to EB standards or I doubt I'd play it. If done right, this could be very good... :2thumbsup:


EDIT:
as for the general bodyguard... there's pictures of noble-looking leaders as archers, as horsemen, as fierce infantry, and on elephants... and probably on chariots too... now what should we go with?
I'd say archer or elephant... but i think it'll probably end up being elephant...
but if there's enough evidence for Mauryan general liking to be guarded by elite archer groups, that would make for an interesting general bodyguard....

[Admetos]

Of course it will be up to EB standards, we might need a little help as it's a lot of work for two people, but we'll definetly get there. :2thumbsup:

[Malik of Sindh]

Im thinking of making only a satrapy of Mauryan empire,so it will only hold the Taxshashila region.By the way,you seem to know alot bout Mauryans.Can you help us with names?

[Admetos]

What other alternatives are there for an Indian faction though, as the Mauryan empire goes a long way off the map?

[Spoofa]

none? The Mauryan's pretty much controlled India until their collapse.

[Admetos]

Thats the problem, it's hard to represent India without the Mauryans, and its hard to represent them as they go so far off the map.

[KuKulzA]

I don't know much about the Mauryans... and all the Indians i am friends with aren't much into history...
but if someone can find a person who speaks or knows a lot about Prakrit... that could be a start...

and finding out the name (in Asoka's language) of the land we're in would be helpful, that could be the name of the faction...

just a thought, I can see a strong steppe faction and a strong Successor faction being tough for Indians... considering steppe horse archers and super phalangites are two things that can counter the Indians' anti-masses (chariots, elephants, archers, pro troops) and masses (infantry).....
though of course a clever Indian general could use infantry to engage phalanxes and use chariots/elephants/heavy-troops to flank them... and use elephants and archers to deter horse-archers...

this could be good... I'll try to help, but like I said before, I don't know too much and I am trying to learn more as we speak...


EDIT:
the Pali language can be said to be Prakrit... and it was the language of the Buddha... and Asoka DID go Buddhist... perhaps we should look into Pali? there's a revival of Pali studies... and while Indian and SE Asian sources might not be too helpful to us... there's some Pali translation group in the UK we could look for if we need 'authentic' names and such...
but i wonder what language is used in EB right now... what is the Indian language for the troops and buildings' names?

[Malik of Sindh]

The Indian power will be spammage of levies,they'll be able to field way larger armies than anyone else in EB,but they'r units are going to be very low quality.Theres some elites too,though.By the way,there will be scripts that spawn them a few stacks if anyone attacs them.

[KuKulzA]

The Indian power will be spammage of levies,they'll be able to field way larger armies than anyone else in EB,but they'r units are going to be very low quality.Theres some elites too,though.
Yeah, but we can't skimp on elites... the elites in Indian armies were just that... very good professional soldiery.. often archers, swordsmen, elephants, chariots... in a sea of mass infantry...

I suggest for organization sake we split it into this:
General
Archer or Elephant or what?
Infantry

spearmen*
swordsmen - like the spearmen except without swords
Guild warriors**
longbowmen*
noble bowmen - represents nobles ?

Cavalry

poor skirmisher cavalry - light, and terrible cavalry
war elephant*
armored war elephant*
"super" war elephant***
indian-style chariot - 4 horsed, 4 wheeled, heavy charging chariot

*already present in-game
** I think the Guild warriors should be made a little more powerful so they can be more of an elite shock troop role
*** This is an elephant with the best troops in the howdah, and least likely to run amok, and has armor and swords attached to its tusks...

anyone know anything about Indian naval capacities?


By the way,there will be scripts that spawn them a few stacks if anyone attacs them.
Reinforcements from the rest of the Empire i assume?

I think that if we go by my idea of time periods... (like the Celtic or Roman ones)
Expansion of Asoka
Spread of Buddhism - 261?
Death of Asoka - 232
Collapse of Mauryan Empire - 184
then the scripted reinforcements would be much less after the Death of Asoka (due to weak successors) and cease entirely after Collapse of the Mauryan Empire

[Malik of Sindh]

General will be an even stronger version of Elephanthes Kathapraktoi Indikoi i guess,something similar to that super elephant.The chariot thing would be too hard to make,so i think we will borrow one of the existing ones and reskin it.We will add some power to it too.I really like your idea about the reinforcements.Ill go study in Scriptorium now.BTW the indian elites are going to be a bit weaker then any other factions elites,so they would not be overpowered.

[Bootsiuv]

I've been reading this thread with interest. It's a cool idea, albeit fairly difficult.

Ya know Malik of Sindh, if you use the export_descr_units from our SSbQ mini-mod by Spoofa, it fixes the elephants hp issue, and it also raises a few other units armor ever so slightly. We'll just say that Kataphraktoi will be very hard to bring down without AP, which is good IMO.

I don't think Spoofa would mind if you guys used that as a base....just throwing it out there.

Rise of Persia is also another mod you might consider looking at, as they have an Indian faction.

If you asked they might let you use some units. :yes:

I'll be watching this, and hope you guys can bring it to fruition. It would be better if it came with an install.exe, so it could be easily uninstalled if the player wanted the Casse back (if such a thing is even possible).

Bootsiuv

[Admetos]

Some good ideas Bootsiuv. :2thumbsup:

I've actually got RoP downloaded so I'll have a look at that a bit later.

As for installation, it could be possible to use batch files, although I'm far from an expert on this.

[Bootsiuv]

I think you're best bet would be to use the Mauryans and just have them recieve scripted reinforcements if certain conditions are met, to represent reinforcements from the east.

You could also increase the Indian provinces trade bonuses even further to represent trade with the east (this has already been done in EB1, but I thought that an even larger increase may do well to represent the trade of a contiguous empire).

Choosing a capital might be challenging though, as the Mauryans real capital is east of the map edge. :shrug:

Bootsiuv

[Watchman]

Then again, conceptually it'd just be the provincial adminstrative center right ?

[Admetos]

The empire would send reinforcements if their lands are attacked, although I guess we've got to be open to suggestions on this as to the best way to represent the empire.

I totally agree about the trade.

This is why me and Malik were talking about possibly making the faction a province of the empire, but again, we're obviously open to suggestions.

[Bootsiuv]

Then again, conceptually it'd just be the provincial adminstrative center right ?

Word. :2thumbsup:

I was just saying....a certain degree of player roleplaying/developer description is all that's required to solve that. :yes:

Bootsiuv

[Malik of Sindh]

We decided we will have to do whole Mauryan empire,because we really have no choice.We want to make this EB quality.There were no satrapies in Hindu Kush in 272bc.

[KuKulzA]

We decided we will have to do whole Mauryan empire,because we really have no choice.We want to make this EB quality.There were no satrapies in Hindu Kush in 272bc.

how are you going to do the whole Mauryan empire? you might as well make a new mod for RTW with oriental, south, and SE Asia...

I say just call the faction the Prakrit name for the Taksashila/Opiana/Patala region... seeing as how THAT region is/was currently under Mauryan rule... but the EB time line goes past to when Mauryan empire fell..

[Malik of Sindh]

That's my idea,but we want to make a historical,EB quality mod,so we can't go with a satrapy,no matter how I want it.

[Admetos]

I don't think it would be a satrapy, more a province of the Mauryan empire.

[KuKulzA]

I don't think it would be a satrapy, more a province of the Mauryan empire.
my point exactly, and thus in the native name

[Admetos]

That's definetly a better idea than trying to represent the whole Mauryan empire or having an un-historical Indian satrapy.

[Admetos]

Have we got any idea on what to do about culture then? That seems a big stumbling block.

[Bootsiuv]

Make them eastern....what's the alternative?

[Admetos]

I think we have little choice, its just the general portraits really don't look Indian. I guess there's no way to differenciate portriats in the same culture?

[Bootsiuv]

I suppose it will have to do, unless your mod changes fundamental structures of other factions, and that isn't favorable.

[Malik of Sindh]

https://img81.imageshack.us/img81/9527/rometw2007102304354895gv5.gif
The British Conquest of India.
I started doing some things with the casse,and Admetos posted an adverisment in TWC.We are slowly moving.
No one cares bout my first attemps at modding~:mecry:
Just kidding,ill improve soon

[Pharnakes]

What I don't undestand is: If you're eliminating the Casse, why not pinch a few provinces from the British isles, and shove the map over by a couple of hundred miles.

After all, I a player wants to play a faction near Britian, then he would choose to play "vannila" eb, not this mod, so why don't you make Brittian into two provs (split britania and caledonia) and maybe remove a few from gaul and Iberia. Then you can have a more or less complete Mayuran empire, and certinately at least be able to include the capital.

Edit: If I was you I would create a realy Indian centered mod, I know this is generaly against eb principals to give more resources to one faction, and I greatly respect you for trying to stick with this as much as possible, but hey, the only factions that people are going to want to play in this mod are Mayauran empire, Baktria, Saka, Pahlahva, Arche Seleukidia and maybe Haysdan, Ptolomaioi or Makedonia. So, basicaly, you can let everything west of sicily go hang, if anyone wants to play those factions, then they will play normal eb. There fore my advice would be to either eliminate the roman culture (make them western greek, IMHO the best sloution), or if someone wants to conquer india as rome, the merge the western and eastern greek cultures. Either way, use this slot to add an indian culture. Yeah, it gona be a resource pig, but that always what happens to unique cultures, look at rome ATM, more of everything than any 2 other factions, just about.

Oh, and maybe I'll will help out on this mod (if I haven't put you all off already.) Msg me on msn, Malik, my msn is pharnakes@hotmail.co.uk.

[Geoffrey S]

That's my idea,but we want to make a historical,EB quality mod,so we can't go with a satrapy,no matter how I want it.
...which is exactly why EB didn't include an Indian faction in the first place...

[Malik of Sindh]

Hmm these ideas are very good.What if we take a huge task in creating Europa Barbarorum:The East.So we add a few new factions(not much i think)extend the map with India,maybe with Bengal area too.Add a lot of regions in India,Egypt,Asia Minor,Persia,Mesapotamia.But i think we really don't have the skills for such a HUGE mod.

[Malik of Sindh]

A bit more about faction Ideas.Galatians,Mauryans,Romans(emergent)Yuehzi(emergent).I also thought about Cyrenaica.Please,post your ideas,were all open to suggestions.We will cut everyting west of Greece.So these factions will not be used anymore,so they make free slots.Lusitania,both gaul factions,casse,sweboz,carthage.

Could a moderator rename this thread to Europa Barbarorum:The East.?
First post updated heavily.

[Admetos]

It would be a HURCULEAN task to redo the map. We'd also need to redo almost all of the EDB, which isn't that easy itself. If we could manage it though, I would be in favour.

EDIT: I would suggest it would be quite hard to represent Diadochi empires without including Greece. After all, they were all working to try and re-establish Alexander's kingdom under themselves.

I would suggest this as a map (obivously with further corrections):

http://img37.picoodle.com/img/img37/6/10/23/t_Untitled2m_e341a7e.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/23/f_Untitled2m_e341a7e.jpg&srv=img37)

[Bootsiuv]

Wow....this went from a small, relatively difficult project to a gargantuan, enormously difficult project. :yes:

If there is anything I can do to help, let me know.

Bootsiuv

[SpawnOfEbil]

I'd like to offer my help as well, even though I know next to nothing about modding :no:


Still, one can always learn something new :smash:

[Pharnakes]

I will be the mapper.:2thumbsup:

Can also do asorted other tasks modding all .txt files and descriptions. I have often thought about doing just such a thing myself (I being no fan of the barbs) focusing on greece and the east. How much time I can give will have to be worked out, ATM I have very little going on IRL, but I am already a memeber of the Heg team, and that will have to remain my priority, also I have recently applied to join the eb team to work on the m2tw engine, and to cap it off have half promised to do a map for the Narnia mod. And all this without a computer to play RTW.:sweatdrop: However time will tell.


Also, I suggest we make this for BI.exe. (emergent factions for rome and yuehzi), plus I think it would be great if we could have the Ptolomaioi and selukidai have rebel factions. Also, I suggest we consider axing the Getai, maybe even the sarmatians (though we would have to think very carefuly before doing that)

I also propose the map should stretch form illiryia to the eastern most Mayuran province. Will post a map in a few mins.


Ohh, and I think we should centre the mod on the greeks in general, prehaps even consider changing the start date.

Ok, factions that I think should be included: (west to east)

Epiros
Makedonia
Koninon Hellon
Getai?
Galatians
Pontus
Ptolomaioi
Haisdan
Sarmatia?
Seleukidai
Saba
Pahalava
Baktria
Saka
Mayuran Empire
Tamils (seems to be shri lanka at the time, possbily also Dravidians, will need to do a lot more reasherch here)


Rome (ermergent, 230-40 bc?)
Yeuhzi(emergent, no idea)
Seleukidai rebels*
Ptolomaioi rebels*
Mayuran empire rebels?
KH rebels
*(note, I believe these can be tied together, if we decide this is a good thing, then maybe one could be replaced by Mayuran rebels or a realy good idea IMHO, KH rebels)

Other possible factions, if we decide to get rid of some of the above (in oreder of priority IMO)

A faction between the Seleukidai and the Mayurans
Kyrenacia
Anatolia (Pergamese)
A second KH faction
A northern arabian faction? Around modern day Oman?



I also think that we need formal permison from the EB team before we go any further, considering the very drastic nature of this mod.

[SpawnOfEbil]

I don't have BI, sorry :(

[Bootsiuv]

If you're going to axe the getai (although I'd say keep them....and perhaps lose one of the shadow factions)...

...and if you're going to change the start date, throw the Attalid's Pergamon in there for good measure...I'll do all of the research for correct fm's and such....I could also do that for a few other factions, as I also have extra time on my hands (slow season)....

I want's me some Attalids damnit...

:2thumbsup:

Bootsiuv

EDIT: BTW I don't think the EB team would mind....people mod their mod all of the time, but, yeah....I suppose it would change the mod drastically.

XGM let someone make XGM Diadochi, and they even stickied it in their forums....although that team isn't as formal as the EB team....I dunno. :no:

[Admetos]

Good to have you on board guys, this is going to require some MAJOR modding. :laugh4:

Pharnakes - Is it not possible to have emergents on 1.5 then?

[Pharnakes]

Pretty sure it isn't. Though I may be wrong.


@bootsiuv: yes I agree,hence them appering in my list of alternatives:2thumbsup:


Touch wood guys, I think we have the go ahead from the eb team.

Map:https://img250.imageshack.us/img250/7443/khcp5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[Bootsiuv]

Touch wood? :inquisitive:

Do you mean knock on wood? LOL

Cuz I'd prefer to have nothing to do with the former... :laugh4:

EDIT: For the humerously challenged, that was a joke.

[Pharnakes]

Have you never heard of touch wood before? it was a thing people did, especialy in the RN, before saying something that might tempt fate.

[Malik of Sindh]

MAA said hes going to inform rest of the team,so pray to the eb gods guys.

[Admetos]

Originally Posted by Bootsiuv
Touch wood?

Do you mean knock on wood? LOL

Cuz I'd prefer to have nothing to do with the former...

EDIT: For the humerously challenged, that was a joke.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

That made me laugh. :laugh4:

[Malik of Sindh]

Could a mod please close this thread?I will post a new one soon,so theres much less offtopic posts of first 2 pages.