Asia ton Barbaron disscusion thread

[Malik of Sindh]

https://img530.imageshack.us/img530/5669/atbdevhp9.png
Asia ton Barbaron is a min imod for EB, Featuring a map from Greece to Bengal.It will need Barbarian Invasion. This mod will include at least 50 more regions in Asia(We will try to fill all the 199), and lot of new factions. The team is growing fast and working on the mod.
This is the map:
https://img517.imageshack.us/img517/8712/atbmochsmallud0.jpg
The map will be updated when map_regions is finished. We will include a bit more of the east than this map shows.
FACTION LIST
1. Kingdom of Macedon(Dark purple)
2. Kingdom of Pontus(Lighter purple)
3. Seleucid Empire(Silver)
4. Ptolemaic Empire(Yellow)
5. Satrapy of Bactria(Blue)
6. Kingdom of Atropatene(Dark Red)
7. Hayasdan(Darkest Green)
8. Parthia(Hording possible)(Pink)
9. Saba(Dark orange)
10. Mauryan Empire(Tea green)
11. Pandya(Dark yellow)
12. Wusun Empire(Black)
13. Attalid Kingdom of Pergamon(Sky Blue)
14. Kingdom of cimmerian Bosphoran(Turquoise)
15. Nabateia(light brown)
16. Saka(Red)
17. Romans(emergent 220-160 BC)
18. Yuehzi(Jade)
19. Kingdom of Cyrene(White)
20. Satavahana

The team currently needs:
Modelers

List of team members:
Malik of Sindh(Scripter, mod founder)MSN:Malikofsindh@hotmail.com
Admetos(All kinds of things,currentily 2d art)MSN:Adam-01@hotmail.co.uk
TWFanatic(EDU editer)
Athkara(Yuehzi and Wusun researcher/historian)MSN:dsinger@uci.edu
Gamegeeek2(Coder)
svramj(Skinner/modeler for Indian factions, translator to Indian language)MSN:svramj@hotmail.com
Hax(coder) flip_da_flop@hotmail.com
Aneliuos Phyros(sp?)(skinner)
overweightninja(coder) overweightninja@hotmail.com


Every member should pm me with their msn adress. I you don't have msn DOWNLOAD IT NOW!

PREVIEWS
1st Indian unit preview (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1893694&postcount=463)
2nd Indian unit preview (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1924268&postcount=498)

[MerlinusCDXX]

EB:The East
EB:TE is a mod for EB,Featuring a map from Greece to Bengal.Currentily me,Admetos and Pharnakes are creating a this mod,but were looking for more people.This mod will include atleast 2x regions in Asia,a few new factions(99% chance:Galatians.100% chance :Mauryan Empire.50% chance:Cyrene)
We are all open to suggestions.This mod will also feature shadow rebel factions(the mod will need BI most probably...)for Ptolemies and Seleucids.Emergent factions:Yuehzi,Romans.Start date: 280 BC.Please post your ideas.

http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/6/10/23/admetos/t_Untitled2m_69419be.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/23/admetos/f_Untitled2m_69419be.jpg&srv=img33)

Mod progress
Map 0%
Factions 0%
Units 0%
Scripts:0%

shouldn't it maybe be called Asiatica Barbarorum(or something similar)? since it doesn't really center on Europe anymore?

[Admetos]

:laugh4: Thats exactly what I said to Malik earlier.

[iwwtf_az]

sounds very interesting, yet very hard to accomplish. i like the map. maybe an ethiopian factions? bosphorous would be cool too. and make sure the romans come because without them emerging history would be completely wrong.

[Malik of Sindh]

We are discusing the factions right now.We have decided these :Bosphorus,A new KH system,Mauryans, we decided not to include Galatians,we will include Kyrene too.

I won't tell you anything about the KH system,lets make it a surprise

[Admetos]

Thanks for the support iwwtf_az, we are disscussing factions as we speak.

EDIT: You got there first Malik, I'm getting Bartix after you again. :whip:

[Admetos]

Change of plan guys, the Galatians are being included. :2thumbsup:

[Pharnakes]

Factions

1. Makedonia WG
2. Atropatene E
3. Koinon Hellenon WG
4. KH shadow faction WG
5. Kyrenaica WG
6. Pergamon WG
7.Pontus E
8. Hai E
9. Ptolomaioi EG
10. Selukidai EG
11. Pahalava E
12. Boshphorian kingdom WG
13. Baktria EG
14. Saka S
15. Mayuran empire I
16. Indo greeks EG
17. Galatians B
18. Saba E
19. Romans (ermergent 220-170bc) WG
20. Yeuhzi (emergent whenever) S

WG: western greek
EG: eastern greek
E: eastern
S: Steppe
I: Indian
B: Barbarian

[Admetos]

What are your opinions/suggestions on this then guys? We'd love to hear some feedback! :2thumbsup:

[Geoffrey S]

shouldn't it maybe be called Asiatica Barbarorum(or something similar)? since it doesn't really center on Europe anymore?
And not on Rome, so no Latin names! :beam:

[Malik of Sindh]

We are having an arguement.Should we include Indo-Greeks as an emergent faction(my idea)or include two Baktrian nations in the start,and the indo-greek one gets reforms and new units(Pharnakes idea)What do you think?We will go with the idea which gets more votes.

[Pharnakes]

And not on Rome, so no Latin names! :beam:

Yes, we need to have the greek name for it.


Yay! no romans!:laugh4:

[The Persian Cataphract]

You could consider an Atropatene faction, just for the sake of messing; It was an independent kingdom at the time and would resemble the residue of previous Achaemenid military machine.

[abou]

Ah, okay. I see what you guys mean. Admetos' PM wasn't as descriptive as I thought.

Anyway, seems interesting and good luck with it. For a 280 start date, using Baktria as a faction is kind of iffy, but that is up to you guys.

If you want a name thought, I think you could use Asia ton Barbaron. If I understand what little Greek I know, that should translate to Asia of the Barbarians.

[abou]

Factions

1. Makedonia WG
2. Epiros WG
3. Koinon Hellenon WG
4. KH shadow faction WG
5. Kyrenia WG
6. Pergamon WG
7.Pontus E
8. Hai E
9. Ptolomaioi EG
10. Selukidai EG
11. Pahalava E
12. Boshphorian kingdom WG
13. Baktria EG
14. Saka S
15. Mayuran empire I
16. Indo greeks EG
17. Galatians B
18. Saba E
19. Romans (ermergent 220-170bc) WG
20. Yeuhzi (emergent whenever) S

WG: western greek
EG: eastern greek
E: eastern
S: Steppe
I: Indian
B: Barbarian
BTW, there are a lot of factions you could use. Remember that when Ptolemaios Keraunos killed Seleukos, practically all of Asia Minor broke away so factions like the Bithynians are possible with a scripted event involving the Galatians.

[Pharnakes]

Could you give us some more details please TPC?

Also could either of you suggest a faction to come between the Selukidai and the Mayurans, which is another pos. we are considering.

[Bootsiuv]

If you could have the Baktrians emerge in 240ish and then have the indo hellenics emerge in ~180 IIRC.

That would be pretty sweet.

[Malik of Sindh]

Pharnakes wants to make both of IG factions playable.I agree with making baktria playable,but not with Indo greeks

[CaesarAugustus]

I am definently excited about this! Just please don't let it die out like the EB late period mod...:shame: I wish I could help you guys out but I have absolutely zero modding talent so all I can give you is my support and this nice green balloon: :balloon2: .

When is the start date?


You could consider an Atropatene faction, just for the sake of messing; It was an independent kingdom at the time and would resemble the residue of previous Achaemenid military machine.

A very good idea, if your faction list isn't final, of course.


Factions

Mauryan Empire

:2thumbsup: Have another balloon. :balloon2:

[Malik of Sindh]

Thanks for baloons,my last one was shot by admetos.Start date is 268 bc.Maryan empire will be a very important faction in the game,and will recive its own culture.

[Malik of Sindh]

The atropatene are in.Check factions post

[Admetos]

Originally Posted by CaesarAugustus
Just please don't let it die out like the EB late period mod

I don't think it did die. They've previewed two late faction icons and in the run-up to 1.0, bovi said the late project was late, so there's still hope, I'm looking forwrd to it too!

[Jurdagat]

I really hope you can pull this one off!
Good luck :)

[Pharnakes]

Thanks

And no, the late period din't die, rather it seems to have been absorbed into the offical eb team.

[paullus]

wow, big task, but best of luck.

i'd say use just 1 baktrian faction, and have the indo-greek faction either:
a) rebel as a shadow faction to the baktrian faction
or
b) emerge if the baktrians conquer a part of india and then lose it to rebellion, or at a certain date.

[Bootsiuv]

I'd say have the Indo Hellenic faction arrive when they did historically if Baktria fights Maurya, if such a thing is possible.

When the player controls Baktria, I don't know how that would work. Perhaps it could still happen, and the Baktrian player would have to deal with it or just let them carve out a kingdom in India. :yes:

For some reason....red or gold comes to mind for Indo Hellenic colors....I really have no idea why. :shrug:

Bootsiuv

[Pharnakes]

I concur, bootsiuv.

@Paulus, Hmm, surely the same ends could be achieved by hving one Baktrian faction become indo greek once they conquer the required provs, also breaking whatever diplomatic ties they had had with northern Baktria. I'm sorry but I just really want to play the indo greeks...

[Malik of Sindh]

b) emerge if the baktrians conquer a part of india and then lose it to rebellion, or at a certain date.
I like this,one don't know what pharnakes thinks thought.


I'd say have the Indo Hellenic faction arrive when they did historically if Baktria fights Maurya, if such a thing is possible.

When the player controls Baktria, I don't know how that would work. Perhaps it could still happen, and the Baktrian player would have to deal with it or just let them carve out a kingdom in India. :yes:

For some reason....red or gold comes to mind for Indo Hellenic colors....I really have no idea why. :shrug:

Bootsiuv

Gold is good for Indo greeks,Red for Maurya,White Cyrene.

[CaesarAvgvstvs]

This seems interesting. I'll play it when it comes out.....:2thumbsup: :yes:
Here's a balloon :balloon2:

[abou]

Gold is good for Indo greeks,Red for Maurya,White Cyrene.
Think about what colors are prominent in the regions. Tea Green might work better for Maurya than red.

[Leão magno]

consider rename greeks by the two great alliancesof the period instead o KH

[Zaknafien]

good luck guys, this is a big project to take on with all the scripting and mapping re-working involved. Maybe you'll motivate someone to start a Roman-focused mod that I can help on!

Cheers!

[Pharnakes]

I thought you were already doing the late period?


And, thoughts I had on the Atropatenes and Romanoi during my biology and chemistry lectures:shame: :


They should start off poor, with a unit roster consiting of just the basic persian lineup, which is pretty much already in EB. Give them 1 or 2 unique units to spice things up a bit. Poss access to pantodapoi phal factionaly in this period, but I don't think it should be. BG cav should be an elite median skirmeshier type in this period, poss we could use the old pontika spahafet as a place holder, or even as the finnal (I think it would be well suited)

They should then have alternitive reforms, in a one or the other from, once they have conquered media, syria, mespotamia and persia.

They should be able to build stone walls (max for most civ factions, max for all greek factions?)



2cnd Reform, Persian. Effectively transforms the Atropatenes into the achemnid dyansty in terms of miliatry. No greek units avalible factionaly, and few avalible in local mics (to repreent the fact that the persians would probably expell the greeks, or would they? IDK, anyone, TPC, got an opinion here?)

Acces to elites now: Imortals? Chariots? anyone know the achemnid dynasties feelings on the use of elies?

BD cav should be persian royal cav, lik in game atm, but even more grandiose skin, slightly bosted stats.

Poss type 4 gov should have the old BD cav (pontika spahafet). (appointing persain rulers not greek, as persians are completly dominant)


If the atropatenes chose to beome the persain empire reborn, less trade, slightly outdated military, increased stability and loyalty.

Able to build large stone walls?

If pos, force their capital to be baylon, representing their refusals to change and adapt to the greeks?






2cnd Reform, Greek Effectivley make the Atropatenes into a second Seleukidai, only approched from a persain perspective rather than a greek perspective. Thus plenty of mid tier greeks avalible, kelruchikoi phalignitai, Keleruchikoi agema (not as good as the Ptolies elites, but I can't think of anything else to call them atm).

Shouldn't have pezhies, cause they were citizens of fairly high standing, would be like that under persian rule (not even the philhellenic pontics had acess to true pezhies, mostly just leve pike).

Elites: Some form of perso-hellenic heavy cav, maybe cataphracts? (rather poor ones though), maybe catas should be a sepertae refom, like the seluks current one, avalible to the Atropatenes either way they go?

Also acess to thurephoroi, peltastai, prodromoi, poss thorakitai?

BD cav should be a perso-hellenic hybrid, along the lines of the Pontic late BD cav (use them as a place holder for moment)

Type 4 gov BD should be lonchophoroi? maybe thorakitai? prodromoi? (greek, anyway, representing the persians acceptence of greek culture and population)

More trade and more up to date military if they choose the greek way, more probs with rebelions. (seleuk attempts to re-emerge)

Stuck with stone walls?

Anyway to force them to have the capital at seleukia? represents them moving with the times, apadting to greek setellers?



Romaioi

Reforms:

Marians: Required: 25 settlements including:Pella, Ambrakia, Thermon, Demetrias, Korinthos, Athenai, Sparta, Byzantion, Rohdos.

Maks, at least one southern greek faction must be dead. 10 type 2 govs. Year <145bc. 3 royal barracks, 5 army barracks.

Imp: don't think they should be in, waste of space for an uplyable faction, spec since their stats are identical, only for the looks really, and if not playable, then:shrug:

However if I am over rulled then:

Imp reforms: Required: 50 settlements including: Pella, Athenai, Rhodos, Pergamon, Byzantion, Antiocheia, Alexandriea, Sinope, Heirsolyma, Sidon, Kyreneia.

Eliminated: Maks, both KH's, Pontus, Kryrenacia, Galatia. 25 tpye 2s. year <45bc, 6 royal barracks, 10 army barracks.


other thoughts:

Provs to be included: Tyre. Some more in Meospotamia. more along the nile.
More for kyrene (cant remember the names you gave me malik:shame: ).

Whoosh:sweatdrop:

Done:2thumbsup: Apologies for the apalling spelling and presentation, like I said I scribled these down while listening with half (well, at least a quater) of an ear to biology/chemistry lectures.

plenty of comments please people!

[Strategos Alexandros]

This looks good:2thumbsup: I think you could perhaps have the partohellenikoi Thureophoroi for Atropatene and not have imperial reforms because the AI will probably never reach them anyway.

[Bootsiuv]

I'm researching Atropatene for these guys right now....my big uni library has gazillions of books...I'm hoping I can find something on the military of Media Atropatene (as it was known to the greeks)....although I would prefer if we could find what they called themselves, as most EB civs are done that way IIRC.

I'll let ya'll know if I came across anything later today.

Bootsiuv

[Pharnakes]

I am just aclling them atropatene cause thats what tpc called em, I know nothing else about them at all:embarassed: , all of the above was merely speculation.

[Bootsiuv]

Well....I figured that Media Atropatene was akin to Arche Seleukeia, so I thought it might be more interesting....but your the developers, I'm just here to help do some of the leg work. :2thumbsup:

[The Persian Cataphract]

Actually, the Medea Atropatene (After the council in Babylon, it was just called Atropatene, according to a few named after the Achaemenid satrap Atropates) was rather conservative, and allegedly the least Hellenized out of all areas in Êrânshahr; This would have been especially true around the areas in Shîz and Ganzacas. Militarily, they would resemble the late Achaemenids. In liberal conjecture a reform should resemble a mix of Hayasdan and Pahlava-influenced elites. Any cavalry would have been of rather high quality but somewhat limited, much thanks to the vicinity of excellent grazing grounds; Medea was just like for the Seleucids also the centre for breeding heavy-boned horses for the Parthians. As such, Atropatene could by all means be properly portrayed with the current line-up of Iranian units, and perhaps a unique late cavalry bodyguard; Sort of a mix of the Heavy Persian Cavalry, Hye Sparapet and Grivpanvar. An apt early bodyguard would be the Persian Heavy Cavalry (Khûveshâvagân Shâhvâr). One could presumably start fantasizing about temple guards and such due to the sacred nature of the cities in Atropatene, but this is not attested. In fact, their historical roster would be in all honesty be quite unoriginal. Chariots? No. Not that they were unaware of of previous Achaemenid usage of these vehicles, but these were not low-lands. It may just be my dislike for them, but hey, if it helps to diversify their possible army, then I'm fine with it.

There are the Cardaces (Arteshtâr Kardakâ), a vast array of Iranian foot-archers, high-landers and an equally solid array of Medeo-Persian cavalry; Nothing else is really needed. If Parthia was "Aedui", then Atropatene would be the "Arverni" if one wants to see it in this way. An Atropatene faction would start out in a single province, or in respect to the new map perhaps two provinces (With cities Shîz and Ganzacas, which is where the citadel of Phrâspâ is), where each city in contrast to the rather rural area are actually quite impressively fortified and not easily taken. So they will most definitely have defensive qualities and very respectable elites in the form of heavy cavalry and foot-archers; On horse-archers, they will be lacking, lest we speak of light cavalry merely armed with bows; They would be of lower quality than the Bandakâ of the Pahlavân. It might even become another aspect of Atropatene reforms; Adopting greater quality horse-archers. Other than that, what Pahlava can recruit in the Greater Iran (Which equals about everything, excluding Iranian speaking nomads in the steppes), the Atropatene should match it. After all they are the heirs of a flexible military tradition and structure.

Of course, when one tends to think about the "heirs" of Achaemenid military tradition, one cannot help but bring back the image of the Immortals/Apple-bearers. However this is risky business. Atropates made himself de facto king and defied Seleucid rule, but we have no information available if he reinstated the office of the Immortals. That he must've had a respectable bodyguard retinue is not a matter of dispute: Such a unit may be named, if we take many liberties, Âyârîg-î Âtarêpâtâ, or even Âyârîg-î Âzarbâd, an ecclesiastical type elite that guarded Atropates, by the hint of his name (Protector/Master of the fire) possibly a chief-priest.

Though Atropatene was poor in finances (It must've been), mostly due to their lack of land and their constant squabbling with the Seleucids, it is no testament to their abilities in commerce; The Parthians too started out poor, only to blossom into a commercial colossus, both by land and sea. The only true distinction between Atropatene and the Parthians is that he former must've still abided by the purely satrapal organization, while the latter integrated satrapies into the nomadic structure of tribal districts, conceiving a form of Iranian feudalism that lived well into pre-Chosroïd Sassanian Iran. This means that Atropatene does not have the same flexibility as the Pahlava government, but on the other hand will be able to build a full Eastern roster of buildings quicker than the Pahlava who must go through the land reforming process. In exception to Pahlava's abilities in nomadism and pastoralism, Atropatene would in spirit have an identical roster of buildings.

Hope this helped! Good luck, boys... You are taking on a very ambitious task, and should you be able to succeed you have done something unique and extraordinary.

[Admetos]

Great information there Pesian Catapharact, that should help us greatly. :2thumbsup:

Also, thanks for the encouragement from both you and Zak, it's always good to get encouragement from the EB team. :2thumbsup:

[Bootsiuv]

Wow, TPC. Informative and helpful as always. I see 'Medea Atropatene' may not be accurate a name, afterall. In my earnest to go to the library today, I couldn't help but Wiki Atropatene, just for s***s and giggles. That's what I get for reading Wiki (actually, usually very handy IMO). :2thumbsup:

[Pharnakes]

Thanks, TPC, that is brilliant. Hmm, chariots as reform then maybe? once they have expanded a bit...

Your right atm they're going to be a bit unexciting, just made up of the generic perso/iranian units that just about anyone can recruit, we need to find a way to inject a bit of life into them. As for the imortals, I have never really been for their favour in any mod (except maybe rise of persia).

Hmm, we could try giving them access to some uber median jav cav, I suppose, prehaps an elite form of the current georgian medium infantry to give their foot a bit of a chance to counter the selukidai elites?

From what you have said, it seems to me that in their core military they will be almost synomus with Hai and Pahalavi, but the later 2 will have heavier cav. Therefore it seems logical to me to give their infantry a bit of a boost.

Ugh, now we come back to the imortals again, we're going to need to give em something to counter the hordes of armoured horse archers, and armoured elite foot archers would be just the thing... I suppose you don't have to call them imortals...:embarassed:

Maybe we should make their starting rosster almost identical to parthia minus the high end steppe cav, then give them a reform once they have expanded out in to mesopotamia and persia. Give them access to a few elite infs, plus make their basic spahabara unit slightly better, maybe. Also acces to the full glories of late achemnid cav, now that they have a large enough country to pay for them again, plus also maybe chariots.Maybe also a slightly hellenised unit? using the xyston?

Also what do you think about cataphracts? I think i reform along the lines of the current seleukid one would be in order...

Ohh, and I spoke to koba. He said he will probably let us have a sub forum.

[The Persian Cataphract]

We must pay in mind that Atropatene outlived the Seleucid hegemony in Iran proper, and managed to retain a degree of autonomy during early Parthian rule and during Tigranes' reign when the area was annexed. Afterwards when the Parthians regained it did it become a fully-fledged district of the Parthian and later Sassanian empires; Therefore we have to retain a bit of skepticism towards certain Hellenic-influenced conventions, and definitely consider cataphracts, be it by a customized reform or a Seleucid'esque cataphract-reform. This should also entail horse-archers. So in their blossoming late game they would resemble a western-Iranian flavour of a Parthian military spectrum, very dependent on cavalry, yet able to field infantry of some quality (Hyrcanians, Takabara-type axemen, Cardaces, foot-archers... Heck you may even want to consider an ecclesiastical elite foot infantry or as a part of later reforms, combat infantry akin to the Parthohellenikoi Thureophoroi.

I'm not going to be negative towards chariots, but I would like it if they were a bit different from the Seleucid and Pontic Drepanophora Harmata; I can provide some pictures on horse-furniture, and how an armoured charioteer would look like. Since we are discussing the reinstating of the very beloved Pontika Spahet within the team, there is a chance that with a few adjustments it might just fit into the prized role as a decaying, but still respectable office of heavy cavalry with skirmishing abilities. We originally scrapped it because it was too remniscient of the popular but flawed plate on Cyrus' (The Younger) bodyguard cavalry, by John Warry.

However I cannot stress the conservatism of the area enough; It may be inflated but the account of the Ardâ Vîrâz is of immense weight, as it venerates Atropates as some sort of a protector against Alexander's oppression against Zoroastrianism (There are accounts on destruction of books and scrolls, and surprisingly a passage sympathetic to the Parthians in their quest of restoring the Avestâ... Very notable, since the Sassanians did their utmost to discredit the Parthians). There is already a Xyston-armed unit; The Kinsmen cavalry, but it more due to the cavalry-reforms of Darius III Codomannus prior to the battle of Gaugamela.

By omitting high-end steppe cavalry I surmise we are talking about units such as Dahae armoured nobles, Roxolani lancers and whatnot. In the end, Atropatene late cavalry should reflect Parthian late heavy cavalry; In fact, thanks to the need of the Medean pastures, I think the Parthian access to these grazing grounds in the first place paved way for even heavier cavalry. Chariots are conjectural and based more on hypothesized traditionalism and "what-if"-scenario. As such I actually advocate for early access to chariots if these are to be in the late Achaemenid style. Later on, the Iranian peoples started to shift over to increasingly heavier cavalry. We cannot break this trend; Chariotry was becoming obsolete as a concept of war, like it or not.

[Pharnakes]

Very hepful again,TPC, thank you very much. I think I am starting to get a "feel" for the faction, also could you recomend any books on late achaemenid military? (and any other subjects relevant to thsi faction)



We must pay in mind that Atropatene outlived the Seleucid hegemony in Iran proper, and managed to retain a degree of autonomy during early Parthian rule and during Tigranes' reign when the area was annexed. Afterwards when the Parthians regained it did it become a fully-fledged district of the Parthian and later Sassanian empires; Therefore we have to retain a bit of skepticism towards certain Hellenic-influenced conventions

Ok, so no factional greek troops. Also I was meaning to ask you, if the Atropatenes had regained dominace from the Seleukidai, how do you feel they would have treated the greek setlers? tolerated them? expelled them?



definitely consider cataphracts, be it by a customized reform or a Seleucid'esque cataphract-reform

Ok cataphracts are in then, yes you are right they are following the direction the late achaemenid kings were taking to its logical conclusion. Heavy horse archers I am not so sure about, maybe also a Seleukdai type reform for them as well, but harder to fufill the conditions? to represent the fact that it is a slightly diferent direction of development needed to create them?



I'm not going to be negative towards chariots

Glad to hear it:beam: sorry I have a one track mind:sweatdrop: Pics of Achaemenid chariots would be great. It just seems to me that as they were such a symbol of the epitome of Achaemenid shock tactics on the battlefield, any nation attempting to revive the empire would recruit them, if only largely for cerimonial purposes. Not a high priority unit, though.



Since we are discussing the reinstating of the very beloved Pontika Spahet within the team, there is a chance that with a few adjustments it might just fit into the prized role as a decaying, but still respectable office of heavy cavalry with skirmishing abilities

I was thinking along the line of a few minor touch ups to the current skins (different colours, slight different armour), I think they would then represent the more old fashioned section of Median nobility admirably. This is good cause ATM we have very little modding/skining skill on the team, but if we can cobble something together from bits and piecies, then we will hopefuly be able to attract some true talent.:beam:



However I cannot stress the conservatism of the area enough[QUOTE]

Ok, so definately no Greeks then.~;p


[QUOTE]By omitting high-end steppe cavalry I surmise we are talking about units such as Dahae armoured nobles, Roxolani lancers and whatnot. In the end, Atropatene late cavalry should reflect Parthian late heavy cavalry :yes:


Again thanks alot for all the time you are putting into this:2thumbsup:


And if there is anything I can do in return, then you need only ask. I have already put a post in th eb help required thread, but I forgot to say that I am now at uni in St.Andrews, If there are any books/texts you are having difficulty getting your hands on, there is a fair bet I can get them, all members of the uni now have acess to a comunal databse that involves nearly 50 universities worldwide, making all material avalible to all.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I'll provide the pictorial goodies on the chariots later; For now a bit good reading on Atropatene...

http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/v3f1/v3f1a020.html

http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/v10f3/v10f382.html

http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/v3f6/v3f6a015.html

Not too much literature of quality is available on the Persian military; For something easily read, and a good introduction on the whole matter, I'll recommend the Osprey title of "The Persian Army" written by Nick Sekunda, and Dr. Kaveh Farrokh's latest Osprey title "Shadows In The Desert: Persia At War". To "follow-up" on the whole military development of ancient Iran, you might want to read Pete Wilcox's Osprey "Rome's Enemies 3: The Parthians and Sassanian Persians", resp. Dr. David Nicolle's "Rome's Enemies 5: The Desert Frontier", Dr. Kaveh Farrokh's "Elite Sassanian Cavalry", and the rare Montvert title "Sassanian Armies" by Dr. David Nicolle. They are all easy to read and if one can be forgiving of some quirks, it is better with an all-round knowledge first than to immediately delve into the esoteric writings at the academical level.

[KuKulzA]

As I said to you before, Malik...

You realize expanding this to south/central Asia as well as more of Ethiopia in Africa will require a shitload of work? If you are fully committed... I will do research... primarily on the Mauryans as that is why I wanted to help in the first place. But when those guys are well taken care of, perhaps I will help research others. I'm fairly good at history, but I am possibly stronger at concept art and drawing, graphic designing (computer 2-d work) is a skill I am working on.

I will research Mauryans, and get back to you on that, let me know if I can help in other ways.


on the note, does anyone have any resources in mind that would be great for the Mauryans and India of that 300 BC and onwards? particularly war and statecraft. That could give me a good place to start going in depth. Thanks. :yes:

EDIT:
by the way, I do not have BI.exe, therefore I hope this doesn't require BI cause if it does, I won't be able to enjoy the fruit of my labor - a.k.a. this mod if it is completed
also I hope that can be made to be a separate installation where you can work parallel to EB and not interfere with RTW or EB

[KuKulzA]

1. Makedonia
2. Atropatene
3. Koinon Hellenon
4. KH shadow faction
5. Kyrenaica
6. Pergamon
7.Pontus
8. Hai
9. Ptolomaioi
10. Selukidai
11. Pahalava
12. Boshphorian kingdom
13. Baktria
14. Saka
15. Mayuran empire
16. Indo greeks
17. Galatians
18. Saba
19. Romans (ermergent 220-170bc)
20. Yeuhzi (emergent whenever)

sounds cool, though I wonder what about the Getai, Tamil, Nepalese, Wusun, Xionghu as an invading group to drive the Wusun around, what about Meroe and/or Ethiopia?

I definitely see a Euro/Mid-east preferrence in terms of faction roster... but we cannot totally ignore the others. Didn't the Dravidians of S. India and Sri Lanka resist the Mauryans during the Kalinga campaign and were known to hav some of the best war elephants? The Nepalese were fierce and known to be a very tenacious nation. The Getic tribes and Thracians were feared by Greeks due to their tenacity... Wusun might seem redundant, but remember they (liek the Sauromatae in EB) have no perks allowing for settlement, the Saka have Indo-Saka reforms, and the Pahlava have theirs... but not the Wusun - who are also a more oriental seeming faction..

just some thoughts... being too Euro/Mideast-centric can be a bad thing

[Pharnakes]

On the whole I agree that it is too westen centered, but, who would we scrap? The galatians are on avery tenous link ATM,but they will probably be in on the basis that they are already all but complete.

Thesame goes for KH shadow, Kyrene and Attalids, easy factions to make quickly, but they are stil very much "provisonaly"

Probs another eaon why the rooster is western biased is that both Malik and I know alot more about the west than the east, hence with inly us to decide, it is prehaps ineviatblethat a certain weterly tilt should come into it. Hopefuly you will be able to correct that!:2thumbsup:

[KuKulzA]

perhaps...

Kyrene, KH Shadow, and Attalids... what new things do they bring to the mod?
I mean Galatians would be a sort of reminder of the Celtic influence... but Kyrene is a small city-state of sorts, and sort of like a Greek colony... the KH Shadow... well I don't know enough about Greece to answer but I think a second Greek faction would be less important than say the Wusun... and the Attalids... weren't they a very short lived semi-autonomous satrapy?

[Malik of Sindh]

You will only be taking kyrene from my cold,dead hands.I still dunno what to do about the indo-greeks,but i like paullus idea about emerging indo greeks after baktrians conquer some India.

[Admetos]

Personally, I'd also go with paullus' second idea as well.

[Malik of Sindh]

We are having a debate with admetos.Its very hard to find any info on bosphorus.He thinks we should scrap Bosphorus,and add something else.Please tell us what you think.

[Admetos]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Bosporas (:furious3: , Malik knows what I mean) in the mod, they'd have such an interesting unit line up, but I haven't been able to find any information on them at the start date. If someone could provide info or link or anything that could help, I would thank you so much as I really would like to see them in the mod, but without info, it just can't happen.

[Geoffrey S]

Forgive me if this sounds somewhat harsh, but if you're going to make such an expansive mod up to historical standards you're going to have to put in a whole lot of effort for research, and that isn't going to happen overnight. From what I've seen this hasn't been going for that long; it's going to take a lot longer to find easily accessed sources (if they even exist), let alone specialised academic works.

[Zaknafien]

why not script the "Romani Invasions" as events rather than an emerging faction, with appropriate stacks appearing in Greece and/or Asia Minor at suitable times, based on what factions own those provinces at the time.

You could have them as an emerging faction if/ when Pergamum is destroyed, spawning in Pergamon as it is "willed" to the Romans. If not, they won't emerge.

[Admetos]

I understand what your saying Geoffrey, but I would have though I would have thought that I could have found at least some basic information by now, but I have found none, zip, zero, zilch, whatever you want to call it. :laugh4:

I know its not the most reliable website, but let me direct you to this paragraph from Wikipedia:


His successor was Spartocus III (303–283 BC) and after him Paerisades II. Succeeding princes repeated the family names, but we cannot assign them any certain order. We know only that the last of them, Paerisades V, unable to make headway against the power of the natives, in 108 BC called in the help of Diophantus, general of Mithridates the Great of Pontus, promising to hand over his kingdom to that prince. He was slain by a Scythian named Saumacus who led a rebellion against him.

As you can see, nothing from 283 untill 108! Of course I may be completely wrong, in fact, I really hope someone comes along and proves me 100% wrong.

EDIT: That sounds good Zak, I'm sure that will be taken into consideration, thanks.

[Malik of Sindh]

What do you mean were doing research fast?Were not!I was researching Cyrenaica,which was extremely easy to reaserach(only existed 18 years after mods start).Every other faction wil be atleast 3 times harder to research.

[Zaknafien]

usually you need to order expensive books from university presses or get them through inter-library loan, or by being a member of some archaic historical society that sends out monthly/yearly scholarly journals.. its a pain in the ass sometimes :)

[Admetos]

I guess that just adds a further complication to this already HUGE task. :laugh4:

[Bootsiuv]

Keep bosphorus!!

It would be the only mod i know of with a playable bosphorous...make them a greek/steppe mix....very cool idea methinks.

[Bootsiuv]

BTW, I'll look up info on them as well....I could probably find something in the 80 million books I have access too.

[Admetos]

Thanks Bootsiuv, thats really appreciated. :2thumbsup:

[Bootsiuv]

So...does that mean you'll keep Bosphorus if I can find something on them?

I'll begin tomorrow. This thing is starting to sound really, really promising. With the occasional support from the knowledgeable EB staff, we could really pull it off.

I just ask that you take your time....I'd be willing to wait up to a year for a eastern mod of eb quality.

Bootsiuv

[Admetos]

Of course, if we have info we'll definetly be keeping Bosporas. The only reason we were considering leaving them out is becasue of the lack of info, personally I'd hate to see them left out as much as you would.

I'm not sure it'll be as long as a year, but it'll definetly be up to EB standards. :2thumbsup:

[Malik of Sindh]

Time is not a problem too me,I have almost no personal life.I can work day and night.Its 2 days till my week off from school,so ill have even more time.

[Admetos]

You're the same as me Malik, a computer zombie. :laugh4:

[KuKulzA]

hmm... back on the topic of factional balance...
factions that are more likely to be taken off:
--- Pergamon, Atropatene, Kyrenaica, Bosphorians, Indo Greeks, Galations
factions that could go up on the list:
--- Tamilakam, Wusun, Kirat Nepal, Getai/Thrace, Meroe/Ethiopia

and Xionghu as an emergent faction or invasionary force...

now I sense that there is a GREAT unwillingness to let go of Kyrenaica and Bosphorans... which leaves us Pergamon, Indo-Greeks, Galations, and Atropatene.... I say we definitely keep Galations (representative of the Celtic influence) and Pergamon (they did end up ruling much of present-day Turkey)... however like said previously, Indo-greek status can be fused with Baktria... and I think Media Atropatene can be scrapped...

so IF Indo-greeks are merged into Baktria, and Atropatene scrapped...
we can then put in two playable factions...

Tamilakam are the ancient Dravidian peoples that lived on the tip of India and had frequently traded, explored, and warred with the Sri Lankans, sometimes overtaking Sri Lanka if I am not mistaken. They also have a variety of martial arts, and a rich history... and we at war with Asoka in his Kalinga campaign.
Kirat (Nepal) is a long period of time when the Kirats ruled Nepal but there isn't much readily available information on this period and finding out in-depth the Kirat Nepalese culture might be tough. But they were known for being fierce warriors, though that may have as much to do with their location as with their Tibeto-Burmese heritage... they did however trade with both India and China...

Wusun are an Asiatic nomadic group driven south and west by the Xiongnhu (Huns). They became an very powerful force in Central Asia between the Saka and Kang and the Xiongnhu... with whom they battled often. Some sources give them an Indo appearance and others a more Caucasian... but they were probably, like many groups, a large union of several related groups. It was they who forced the Yuezhi to move.
Getai/Thrace you guys know about, and Meroe or Ethiopia could represent an African country with the potential for 'international' power'.

I think out of those five...
Wusun and Tamilakan have most merit... Wusun to make sure those steppe guys watch their backs, and Tamils to make sure the Mauryans don't get too comfy...


EDIT:
if Bosphorans end up getting scrapped... I am sure the Thracians, Ethiopians, or Nepalese would love to take their place

[Malik of Sindh]

We have disscused this before,no getai.Shri lankans would work,and I agree with the idea of sraping Indo-Greeks.If the rest of the team votes scrap Cyrenaica,then ill agree,BUT ILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU.

EDIT:Also Tamilakan would need huge amounts of research,but if Bootsiuv has 80 million books in his uni library,i guess we will find some thing about them.

[Admetos]

I think we definetly need something to challenge the Mauryans, so Tamilakan sounds good. I also think we need Atropatene to represent that there's still a Persian influence in the area.

[KuKulzA]

so I assume this is the "revised" list?

Makedonia
Atropatene
Koinon Hellenon
KH shadow faction
Kyrenaica
Pergamon
Pontus
Hai
Ptolemaioi
Seleukeia
Pahalava
Boshphorian kingdom OR Wusun if Bos. are scrapped
Baktria
Saka Rauka
Mauryan empire
Tamilakan
Galatians
Saba
Romans (ermergent 220-170bc)
Yuehzi (emergent whenever)

is a KH shadow faction really necessary? couldn't it be replaced with Nepalese, Thracians, or Ethiopians?

[Malik of Sindh]

I can't edit Pharnakes post,hes not online.But yes,when hes online,Ill ask him to edit it.The KH shadow faction is the only way to represent the accurately.

[KuKulzA]

ok, well at least I've made some progress in terms of balancing this out... Tamilakan will be a great addition... and Wusun hopefully, if only it could be added without scrapping Bosphorans

[Bootsiuv]

Losing Indo Greeks is a mistake IMO....a big one.

Having a scripted invasion led by Demetrius if the Baktrians fight the Mauryans and conquer some of India....it would add a lot of flavor, especially to the Mauryan player....to have a massive invasion of several gold stacks pop up in the west of your empire....losing Indo-Greeks takes away a lot of the mods flavor IMO.

Bootsiuv

[Malik of Sindh]

But Baktrians and Indo Greeks are almost the same thing.

[KuKulzA]

Losing Indo Greeks is a mistake IMO....a big one.

Having a scripted invasion led by Demetrius if the Baktrians fight the Mauryans and conquer some of India....it would add a lot of flavor, especially to the Mauryan player....to have a massive invasion of several gold stacks pop up in the west of your empire....losing Indo-Greeks takes away a lot of the mods flavor IMO.

Bootsiuv

then in your opinion Bootsiuv, who do we get rid of to allow room for Indo-greeks... and say Tamils to both exist in the mod?

[Malik of Sindh]

If Pharnakes and Admetos would be online,we could disscuse this,in my opinion,Indo greeks get a kick in the butt.BTW Kukulza whats your msn?

[abou]

You guys have a KH and a Kyrene, but still no Ptolemaios Keraunos?

[Bootsiuv]

It would appear that there are many factions which may warrant inclusion....I still think Demetrius popping up in the west of my Mauryan empire would be an awesome thing....

Make it Menander I if you want...as he's more well known. Whatever though. I'm just here to help. :2thumbsup:

[Pharnakes]

If anyone goes, it should be Galatia. They are rapidly becoming the "Romans" of this mod, yes, they are complete resource pigs. One whole culture
all to themselves, lots of non shared unit models... Personaly I vote for their removal. And to be honest Malik, although Kyrene is fasinating due to its start pos, in reality that very position is why it should be removed, they never expanded at all, just clung to existence untill Magas dies, then they more or less just rolled over on their backs and accepted Ptolomaoi rule.

Pergamon and bosphorus are slightly different propostions, I am personaly pretty much neutral on them, Pergamon (much though I love them) should go first if either does, I think.

[Malik of Sindh]

Like I said,if rest of the team votes on kill Cyrene,ive got nothing against it.

[Pharnakes]

Yes you have... Don't lie:whip:

[Malik of Sindh]

I'd be willing to wait up to a year for a eastern mod of eb quality.
Bootsiuv
Lol,i could wait for 3 years.No really,we ARE going to make this eb quality,no matter how much this will cost to us.Me and admetos are computer zombies=no personal life.I am willing to spend all my time ,when im not in school,I can work day+night without 1 hour of sleep(but you will need to tell me atleast 10 reasons why lol).Call me whatever you want,but ill stay until this things done.

[paullus]

What if you didn't expand the map quite as far east, and did the following:

Mauryan faction: Taksashilan or Palatiputhran "Satrapy" -- if you start in 268, Asoka is in the highlands south of Palatiputhra, and though he was declared ruler, he had to conduct several wars against other Mauryan rulers before he could become sole ruler. You could potentially make the challengers a shadow faction, which could pop up again at later points.

Baktrians: Indo-Greeks - its definitely not worth losing the Indo-Greeks. I already stated that you could have them emerge related to the capture of Indian territories, but you could also have them emerge just as a shadow faction to the Baktrians.

Remaining faction choices:

The most important thing for you to do is find ways to represent these new factions with existing units. Atropatene requires new skins to existing units (you could use regional variants at first even), not brand new units. Several of the factions work that way, and its probably wise to choose those new factions first. Bosphoros, Kyrenaia, the KH replacements, Pergamon, Galatia, Indo-Greeks, Atropatene--you can get most of their entire roster off of existing regional or factional units. That's very important for making this happen.

[Admetos]

Personally I think that it would be a bog loss not to have the Indo-Greeks, like Bootsiuv said, they would add alot of flavour. Also, I know we are trying to represent the KH accurately, but this mod is an Eastern focused mod, and using two factions there takes away another faction that we could use in our main area. I agree that *maybe* the Galatians should be scrapped, but again, they would add a different flavour to the mod, just imagine carving out a barbarian empire in Anatolia, and I think they could also draw more players to the mod, I can't think of any RTW mod where the Galatians have been playable. At the moment, I would vote to keep the Galatians and Indo-Greeks, and scrap the shadow KH faction.

I would also vote to get rid of the Seleucids. :laugh4:
(That was a joke in case anyone was wondering)

[Justiciar]

Nice idea, and best of luck with it.

I personally think you should ditch Rome as a faction, though. You can't realistically portray them, in much the same way you can't realistically portray the Mauryan Empire in EB. There are plenty of factions you could switch focus to, besides. You could even get rid of KH and portray it more realistically - Sparta, Rhodes, and Athens each seperate, but in an alliance including the Ptolemaioi.

[Admetos]

Originally Posted by Justiciar
I personally think you should ditch Rome as a faction, though. You can't realistically portray them, in much the same way you can't realistically portray the Mauryan Empire in EB.

This was exactly my argument originally, but I think I was out-voted.

As for having 3 KH factions, Sparta, Athens and Rhodes, I also had this idea, but remember, we are trying to portray the eastern world and it's just not right having three faction in Greece.

[Pharnakes]

new map:

[img=https://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5490/92696870xw3.jpg] (https://imageshack.us)
[img=https://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5490/92696870xw3.ed25aab73b.jpg] (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=527&i=92696870xw3.jpg)

[Admetos]

The link's dead Pharnakes. It says "The address is not valid".

EDIT: That's better. :2thumbsup:

I don't like that, why so angled?

[Malik of Sindh]

Me neither.Egypt is cut off too.



was that a joke?
I get it now.This is some kind of conspirancy,WHAT DID YOU DO TO KYRENAICA!?

[Malik of Sindh]

First post updated with updated faction list

[Admetos]

:no:

[Malik of Sindh]

Cmon people spam us with your opinions about the faction list.

[Bootsiuv]

I'm leaving for my uni's lib in about 30 mins....lots of good books.

Is there anything else you guys would like me to look out for, faction wise?

[Malik of Sindh]

A bit on wusun,if you find anything

[Bootsiuv]

kk

I'll do my best. :bow:

Bootsiuv

[Admetos]

After long deliberation, we have decided in the best interset of the mod we are scrapping the two Greek factions. This will give us more detail in other areas.

Of course, if you can persuade us (Malik and Pharnakes), we could find a way to represent them. Also, someone could perhaps persuade us about another faction that's just been left out :yes: .

:laugh4:

[Malik of Sindh]

Sorry,no Galatia,Admetos.

[Admetos]

I'm over that now. :yes:

[Bootsiuv]

Galatia is out? :sad:

Damnit...what is it gonna take for me to carve a barbarian empire out of asia minor...I suppose I'll have to mass migrate my Getai?

Sorry to hear that it's out, like someone said another playable galatia does not exist as far as I know.

I do understand why you did it though.

I, however, am glad to hear that you've axed the two factions in Southern Greece....the mod's focus should be in the east, not the west IMO.

Make them Eleutheroi, but strong eleutheroi, so Maks dont steamroll them.

I'm also glad to hear that the Romani are an emerging faction....making them playable would be akin to the eb team including maurya and making them playable...no good, considering their true capital is off of the map.

Bootsiuv

[Bootsiuv]

With seven cultures allowed can't you bring back Galatia?

I'll read your answers when I return, for now I must travel to my local uni...and look up Bosphoran, Wusun, and Atropatene. Hopefully I can find something useful relating to their military machines. :shrug:

Bootsiuv

BTW, what would you need western greek for now?

I think you guys could squeeze galatia in now, and have just a greek culture.

[Malik of Sindh]

Ethiopia added to the list.

[Admetos]

We're arguing about Galatia right now. Please let them be in...

[Malik of Sindh]

but we won,so no more galatia.People we got a free slot,so please say what faction you would like in.

[CaesarAugustus]

I would eliminate bosphorus and the KH shadow to make room for a more important eastern faction. Kyrene also doen't seem worth sacrificing an eastern faction for, (sorry Malik!) it is just too insignificant for a mod based mainly on the middle-east. Yes, they might put pressure on the Ptolemies but more likely they will just get crushed unless played by the human player, much like having Syracuse as a faction in regualr EB.

[Admetos]

Both KHs have already gone.

[CaesarAugustus]

but we won,so no more galatia.People we got a free slot,so please say what faction you would like in.

What exactly are the options? And maybe you would like to make a poll?

[Malik of Sindh]

Date changed to 260 bc

[CaesarAugustus]

To accomodate Kyrene?

[Malik of Sindh]

No,to more realisticaly portrait greece,to make seleucids fractured.

[Pharnakes]

Date has been changed for a variety of reasons:

1. End of chermonidean war, all Greece goes to Maks, cept Sparta, which will now be a strong rebel faction along the lines of the eb 1.0 boii and lugii.

2. Seleucids suffering major, and I mean major internal strife. This is done to give Pontus, Pergamon, Hai and Pahahlav a chance to expand, rather than being crushed in the first ten turns.

[Malik of Sindh]

People,please post what do you think the 20th faction should be.

[Bootsiuv]

Well, Bosphorans are almost impossible to find out about pre middle ages, but I can keep trying, as I didn't have much time (my girl had class and I had a half hour to look).

I did get a few very large books, so I'll peruse those over the next few days, and hopefully it will generate something useful...

I was wondering about doing away with greece altogether moving further east, and adding China as a civ....probably pretty crazy and really moves the focus east, but it would be pretty sweet to play an EB caliber china.

Although, what I do know about ancient China escapes me right now, so I can't remember if 260 is too early to represent a united china....

Just a thought.

I'll let you guys know if I've found anything useful...

Bootsiuv

[Malik of Sindh]

China was united in 260 bc iirc.China would steamroll everyone,because of how large it is.No China in our mod.

[Admetos]

And anyway, we'd still need to have the Seleukids and Ptolies, and I can't imagine representing the Diadochi without having Greece.

[paullus]

You should include Galatia. faction list is already complete, and they're very important in the events around your start date...

Oh, and there's a good bit on the Bosphorans out there, you just gotta look pretty hard.

[CaesarAugustus]

China was united in 260 bc iirc.China would steamroll everyone,because of how large it is.No China in our mod.

No, China was united 221 BC. You would have to shift the map far east to encompass china and use up many, many province slots, not to mention about 7 factions slots to represent China accurately, so I am glad that you ruled this out.

I think Yuezhi and maybe Xiognu is enough.

[Pharnakes]

Little teaser people:

Guess the faction:http://img40.picoodle.com/img/img40/6/10/25/f_factioncolom_3f127b0.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/25/f_factioncolom_3f127b0.jpg&srv=img40)


And just to make things a bit more complicated, they'renot all new factions, one or two already in eb will be undergoing minor changes.


At Palus, please, do not encourage Ademtos, Galatia is out, no need to give the poor guy false hope, now is there?

We decided that they just take up too much space. :shame:

[CaesarAugustus]

The link is not working, Pharnakes.

[Bootsiuv]

Yeah, thanks for the clarification on China....I wasn't sure, but knew it was sometime around there.

I stil wish galatia was in though....perhaps a mini mod for this unofficial mod for the eb mod....heh.

[Malik of Sindh]

Strange that you mentioned it,Admetos says he will create galatia minimod after the mod is out.

[Admetos]

That will certainly be happening Bootsiuv. I had that idea myself earlier. :2thumbsup:

[Bootsiuv]

:applause:

Good work you guys are doing. :yes:

[Admetos]

Thanks Bootsiuv. :2thumbsup:

[CaesarAugustus]

Judst wondering, is ethiopia really preferable to galatia as a faction? As we've heard the developers of EB say many times, the only two units that an ethiopian faction would have are archers and spearmen. A barbarian faction in Asia Minor, however, provides a much more diverse and, yes, exotic option, and they have had much more of an impact than the Ethiopians ever did, especially with Africa in the little left corner of the map.

[Pharnakes]

Ok, this was the reasoning behind galatians getting kicked:

1. They take a much needed culture slot

2. They were not especialy prominent (and ethiopia is still not finnal, more of a place holder, and something to split ptolie attentions, other wise , with the selucid empire the mess it is they will very rapidly over expand)

3. They never expanded, and never even consolidated they're own teritory, if included they would have to have nothing but type 4 govs, since in history they jsut sat on top of thei lands, never trully rulled them, just raidd and extracted tribute.

4. This mod is asia focused, not asia minor.

5. Asia Minor is already over crowded, we need to give the faction there room to expand to a stable power base with which to opose the Ptolies and the Seleukids, once they reorganise themselves. If we included Galatia, then one of either Galatia, Pergamon or Pontus will be dead within 15 or so years, which seems a bit of a waste IMHO. As historicaly it was the Attilids and Pontus who survied, it is they who make it into the game. If we could have another 50+ provinces, then maybe we would be able to include them. As it is...nope.


Ohh, and thanks for your continuing support Bootsiuv

[CaesarAugustus]

3. They never expanded, and never even consolidated they're own teritory, if included they would have to have nothing but type 4 govs, since in history they jsut sat on top of thei lands, never trully rulled them, just raidd and extracted tribute.


A very good point, I had not though of that. I am also glad to hear that ethiopia is (maybe) just a placeholder, but I don't really think they will help very much in stopping rapid Ptolemy expansion, unfortunately.

[Pharnakes]

Current thinkign suggests switching them for Kyrene.

[Malik of Sindh]

Yup,I did this evil deed.Ethiopia is replaced by Cyrenaica(Omgwtfyayomg!!!!!1111!oneone11!elevnteen!!11),because it was more important han ethiopia.And guess what?Galatians aren't in and won't be.

[russia almighty]

...Even though there not in doesn't Ethiopia have a decent AOR selection ? Hell it seems more varied then what Nubia would have had .

[Malik of Sindh]

Like i said,my deed is acomplished,no more ethiopia,its not coming back,just like galatia(unless in admetos minimod).

[KuKulzA]

Galations are out? better to yank out the 2 Greeks, and keep Galatians...

[Admetos]

Greeks are already out, and one of the faction slots had been used. The other is being kept until beta testing and will be used wherever it is needed (ie. balancing).

The Galatians will be included in an offical add-on though. :2thumbsup:

[Leão magno]

Bosphoros would add a real new flavour to your inteded mod! stick wih Bosphoros

[keravnos]

This is a FANTASTIC job you are doing, I don't know how I didn't notice this before...

What? No playable IndoGreeks... :sad:

It is your mod ofcourse, but may I ask why?
-I understand if you consider them emerging faction, they were, but wouldn't the best way to approach it be the following?

At sometime when Baktria has some Indian holdings a "pop-up" comes up saying that a civil war has erupted and asks you to choose between becoming an IG or continue on as Baktrian.

How does that sound?

[Malik of Sindh]

I think its impossible to change from one faction to another in the middle of a campaing?Not in RTW.Its possible in M2TW IIRC.If you choose side,how would this work?Just a territory change?

[Pharnakes]

This is a FANTASTIC job you are doing, I don't know how I didn't notice this before...

What? No playable IndoGreeks... :sad:

It is your mod ofcourse, but may I ask why?
-I understand if you consider them emerging faction, they were, but wouldn't the best way to approach it be the following?

At sometime when Baktria has some Indian holdings a "pop-up" comes up saying that a civil war has erupted and asks you to choose between becoming an IG or continue on as Baktrian.

How does that sound?


I know, I feel your pain Keravnos, but the other team members won't have any of it, no idea why. My idea has always been to have two Baktrias, one of which reforms to become indo greekish.

I think I se what you are getting at, rather like the civil wars in MTW, yes? But is such a thing even posible in RTW, would be perfect if it is?

Ohh, and Kervanos, please please please, use all of your influnce as an eb member to persuade my team mates that we can't have an indain mod without playable indo greeks ~:mecry:

I'm begging you, you are my only hope now.:shame:

[Malik of Sindh]

I really want playable Indo-Greeks too,but this wouldn't be historicaly accurate,right?

[Kahju]

This is an interesting project, although it disappoints me that you aren't going to include China or Gojoseon. Of course, including China would effectively mean that you would have to include quite a few more or less identical Chinese factions...

Speaking of Indo-Greeks, there is a question I'd like to ask. What was the Indo-Greek kingdom called, or what would it be called in EB or AtB? Indo-Greek kingdom sounds like a modern scholarly name to me, not something they would have actually called themselves.

[keravnos]

I really want playable Indo-Greeks too,but this wouldn't be historicaly accurate,right?

Right after Antiochos 3 passed through India in 206 BCE, Baktria began its attack at Maurya holdings in India.
-Demetrios managed to drive through to achieve that. The death of the last Maurya and the disintegration that Sungas caused, helped him achieve that.

Historically the IG kingdom starts at approx. 200 BCE. At 186 BCE, we have the time of the Yavana calendar (with makedonian names for its months) with a core area around modern Punjab (pentapotamia) and reaching as far down as Ujain ( a Ujain sunclock has been found in Alexandria Oxiane - probably second in importance capital of the Baktrian kingdom), and west in Mathura. (A Kalinga king, in a Rock edict has been chronologically dated at 162 BCE boasts of sending Demetrios 2 "back to Mathura").

I respect the decisions of the team here. Totally. The only way I can see IG being included is via some kind of "civil war" as I mentioned before. Otherwise, Yuehzi should also be included, (Han would be too out of map to be able to include).

If historicity is the problem, you can't include them. IF, later on you can have a version of AtB that starts in 186 BCE or so, then of course. At 140 or 135, IndoGreeks under Menandros had all present day Pakistan, all of present day India and conquered the Ganges up to present day Bangladesh.

Indeed, Indo-Greeks is a present day "discovery" partially to make the connection to Indo-Europeans, Indo-Iranians and the like.

As there are coins of them called "Basileos Menandrou" or Saviour King and the like, I am inclined to go with "Basileio tes Indias" or "Kingdom of India" for their title.

If a Mauryan state exists, then there isn't possibly a room for them. The only way for them to exist is if it happens as it did in RL, Baktria occupies the NW and then all Western part of India which it later becomes independent and expands on its own.

Can something like that work? If so, you can have IG ingame. No other way, either historical or doable.

Now, it has been suggested by a Greek Hindu scholar (currently residing in Varanasi, India and author of a greak book on IG) that all greeks in that area (be it Baktria or India) be called IndoGreeks and be done with it, as historically that area of present day Afghanistan was considered a part of India, see...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/EpicIndia.jpg

...but I think that is not the case. They were two separate kingdoms, that the second originated from the first much like UK-US, but IG became very different in the years it existed.

[Admetos]

Um, Pharnakes, I've always wanted playable Indo-Greeks... :yes:

[Os-Q]

Assuming you're going to give Arabia more provinces. How about a "Bedouin" eastern desert-nomad faction. That might keep Arabia from being a Saban, "Grey Death" or "Yellow Plague" playground, give the Saban player another trading partner/contender for local domination, possibly give an excuse to include camels AND...
it would be cool. :yes:

[Pharnakes]

Sorry, but I really don't think that is very likely.


On the indo greeks, my first idea was to give Baktria access to reforms that would kick in when they take most of india.

These reforms would do various things:

1. Change the homeland and expansionist reforms, Baktria and Sogidian would become alliances only, so you would be able to keep them, but they would never realy be part of your empire.

2. Change the religous buildings avalible, to Budhism, and maybe a few other options, but whereas before budhism (as it is now for baktria) would be a secondary religon, offering less bonuses than perso-hellenic cults, budhism would now become the dominant religon, offering the best bonuses. I know next to nothing on the Indo greeks (or Basileio tes Indias as I suppose we should call them now) although I hope to change that this weekend, but I would imagine that there would be other secondary religons we would maybe included as well.

3. Lastly of course, the miltary, whatever is appropriated, IDK.

[russia almighty]

A question .



How many actual greeks do you guys figure where in Baktria ? Cause more and more it seems like there was a metric ****ton hanging out on the far side of the world .

[KuKulzA]

by the way, will this require Barbarian Invasion?


A question .



How many actual greeks do you guys figure where in Baktria ? Cause more and more it seems like there was a metric ****ton hanging out on the far side of the world .
they were probably a significant minority... considering they were once part of Alexander's conquests.... but they're definitely a minority... but most were probably more on the wealthier/influential side than the native peoples

[Malik of Sindh]

Idea scraped,look downwards for abetter one.


A :balloon2: for Admetos,so he makes me Indo-Greek sig.

[Pharnakes]

Ok, my take:

There should be two Baktrias from the start, both "satrapies" of te Seleukids, one called Baktria and one called indo greeks. Then when IGs conquer india, they have a reform that makes them truely IG. The other, proper Baktria just stays as it is.

[Admetos]

My idea, is to only have the one Baktian faction from the start. Once Bakria has reached certain objectives, the player will have the choice to either stay Greek, or reform to Indo-Greek by building a certain building that will grant it access to a seperate building tree. So its almost like the Hayasdan reforms at the moment.

[Pharnakes]

My latest:

Factions:

Seleukids : Romans_Brutti

Baktria : Romans_senate

Indo greeks : Romans_Julii

Ok, with this idea they all start out allied ect, as normal, then, one of three things will happen:

1. (power to the seleukids) The Selukids will restore their empire to a sufficent extent that they can now concentrate on teaching the semi anoutoums satrapies a lesson in obedience. This will be triggered by the seleukids taking all the provs of their empire, plus having a certain treasury level. The allaince will split in two : baktria and indo greek against seleucids, as Baktria is senate, indo greeks will support them.

2. (power to the Baktrians) They take a certain amount of land, they feel they now have enought power to declare their independence. This will be triggered again by land and treasury. Result Baktria goes to war with the Seleukids, Indo greeks support them in their own bid for independence (as Baktria is senate)

3. (power to the indo greeks) They take India, and no longer feel that they are a part of the Seleukid hegemony, again triggered by land and treasury. Result War against the Baktrians, the Seleukids support Baktria as a (relaitivley) loyal strapy, due to the fact that baktria is the senate.



Basics will edit in more details in a minute.

[Malik of Sindh]

oops,ignore.

[CaesarAugustus]

Wow, you guys are having some really great ideas so far!:2thumbsup: An indo-greek faction is definently a must for an EB with the Indian subcontinent, I'm glad to see that it can work while being historically accurate at the start of the game, too.

Balloons for everyone!!

:balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: :birthday2:

[Admetos]

Ok guys, we've got two sigs for you to use. Here they are:

Maurya:
http://img29.picoodle.com/img/img29/6/10/26/admetos/f_mauryam_fd8589c.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/26/admetos/f_mauryam_fd8589c.jpg&srv=img29)

Indo-Greeks
http://img03.picoodle.com/img/img03/6/10/26/admetos/f_indogreekm_7dbb48f.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/26/admetos/f_indogreekm_7dbb48f.jpg&srv=img03)

There'll be more on the way soon.

EDIT: You can also find the sigs in the first post.

[Malik of Sindh]

Bootsiuv and Kukulza,never forget that you are reserchers for us,and you may use these sigs with member as much as you like.All sigs from now on will stay in the first post.

[Malik of Sindh]

Cmon people,we need your suggestions about Indo-Greeks!They NEED to be playable!

[KuKulzA]

Cmon people,we need your suggestions about Indo-Greeks!They NEED to be playable!
My suggestion is that I hope they aren't knocking out the possibility of Tamils, Galatians, and Wusun

and I frown on the official exclusion of Galatians as a playable faction. They were a small, tenacious force to be reckoned with in Asia Minor, and had their momentum not been broken by Antiochus they might have become greater. If the Attalids have enough merit to be a playable faction then so do Galatians.

as for Tamils, that's no doubt a faction that better be in... see how they resisted Mauryan expansion? And Wusun, Malik I believe I've discussed it briefly with you, but they ARE on the map and were very powerful... and don't have the same settling-perks the Pahlava and the Saka Rauka do, therefore representative of a Central Asian steppe "powerhouse".

If we're not compromising the already present and powerful factions, I have no problems with Indo Greeks... and the Seleukeia-Baktria-Indo-greek idea is pretty cool

[Malik of Sindh]

Err Kukulza,Wusun are already on the list. Tamilakans are too.Check the first post.Indo-Greeks were here from the start,we just want to make them playable since they are one of the most favorite faction in the EB community,its also one of mine favorite factions.The free faction slot remains,It will be used for balancing.Like I said,no galatians.Pharnakes and I are already bored of saying this over and over again.Its painfull for Admetos to see them scraped and scraped over and over again.


BTW The Asia Ton Barbaron link in your sig just takes me to Maurya signature,not the thread.


Ok, this was the reasoning behind galatians getting kicked:

1. They take a much needed culture slot

2. They were not especialy prominent (and ethiopia is still not finnal, more of a place holder, and something to split ptolie attentions, other wise , with the selucid empire the mess it is they will very rapidly over expand)

3. They never expanded, and never even consolidated they're own teritory, if included they would have to have nothing but type 4 govs, since in history they jsut sat on top of thei lands, never trully rulled them, just raidd and extracted tribute.

4. This mod is asia focused, not asia minor.

5. Asia Minor is already over crowded, we need to give the faction there room to expand to a stable power base with which to opose the Ptolies and the Seleukids, once they reorganise themselves. If we included Galatia, then one of either Galatia, Pergamon or Pontus will be dead within 15 or so years, which seems a bit of a waste IMHO. As historicaly it was the Attilids and Pontus who survied, it is they who make it into the game. If we could have another 50+ provinces, then maybe we would be able to include them. As it is...nope.

This is the last post about galatians.Other posts which ask Galatians to be included will be ignored.And yes Im like this when I don't sleep enough.Fear me.

And Everyone keep checking the first post,the most important info is there.Ill ask Admetos(His job is 2d art)To make a map showing all faction positions.Ill also ask him to make more sigs with different factions,IIRC next he will make will be Bosphorus.



Im so proud of this post.:2thumbsup:

Please,can a moderator rename this thread to Asia ton Barbaron?

People I beg you,post how you want the Indo-Greeks represented

[Basileus Seleukeia]

You could make a provinvial campaign for them, starting at their break-away, but then again you'd have to change the starting positions for nearly all factions, get new accurate family members, etc, so that's not the best option. You could do it like EB does and just give baktria indo-greek units, but as this mod concentrates on this region, whereas EB has this as the rather unimportant frineg of the map, that's not the best option either. An emerging faction would scare away all the fanboys, and putting them in at the start of the game would be greatly ahistorical. After thinking of all this, I personally deem the provincial campaign option the best, although it is not perfect. And I wish you all good luck for this mod, you have my full moral support:2thumbsup:

[KuKulzA]

my apologies, I'll keep myself updated, and yes, I accidentally had my sig show the wrong link, I'll fix it...



I'm sure the Galatians were a more feared and powerful force than Kyrene but I guess I can do no more to sway you all. Kyrene is just another Greek-colony-type faction... Galatians are unique... and more than just me feels it has merit to be in this mod.
I'm not saying Kyrene shouldn't be in, I am saying Galatians should be. Ideally we'd have them all in... neither would take too much work compared to say Indo-greeks or Mauryans... why Kyrene over Galatia and not the other way around?

I hope I can appeal to ya'll sense of reason

1. Macedon - Hellenistic
2. Pontus - Eastern
3. Seleucid Empire - Hellenistic/Eastern
4. Ptolemy Empire - Hellenistic
5. Bactria - Hellenistic/Eastern
6. Atropatene - Eastern
7. Hai - Eastern
8. Parthia - Steppe/Eastern
9. Saba - Arabian
10. Mauryan Empire - Indian
11. Tamilakans - Indian
12. Wusun Empire - Steppe
13. Attalid Kingdom of Pergamon - Hellenistic/Eastern
14. KoC Bosphorus - Hellenistic/Steppe
15. Indo Greeks - Hellenistic/Indian
16. Saka - Steppe
17. Romans(unplayable)
18. Yuehzi(unplayable)
19. Cyrene - Hellenistic

out of the 17 playable...
8 are Hellenistic (with some overlapping)
3 are Eastern (as in culturally and politically)
3 are Steppe (includes Pahlava)
2 are Indian
1 is Arabian


Kyrene is just another Hellenistic colony... but Galatia is a Celtic, unique, and quite powerful in its locality... to me Kyrene over Galatia is a big bias, so i hope if you are too set and deaf to listen, then hopefully the unofficial Galatia add-on will be awesome




and for Indo-Greeks, they would start out loyal to the Mauryans I think... as the NW of Asoka's empire had both Greek and Prakrit as official languages... so I think Indo-Greeks should start out allied to Seleucids, Baktria, and Maurya, but as the game progresses be constantly caught between the larger powers while trying to carve out a empire of their own...

[Admetos]

I share your thoughts about the Galatians KuKulzA, but it seems the others will not be swayed. Also, looking at your list there, perhaps there is too many Hellenistic factions for an Eastern mod.

Does no-one think anyhing of my idea for the Baktrians then, having them re-form into Indo-Greeks like Hayasdan do at the moment?

[Basileus Seleukeia]

That idea sounds really good Admetos, it would also add a new element: Do you want to stay the Graeco-Baktrian empire or turn into the indo-greeks?

[Bootsiuv]

I share your thoughts about the Galatians KuKulzA, but it seems the others will not be swayed. Also, looking at your list there, perhaps there is too many Hellenistic factions for an Eastern mod.

Does no-one think anyhing of my idea for the Baktrians then, having them re-form into Indo-Greeks like Hayasdan do at the moment?

A fine idea, assuming you guys have a scripter....I assume the script may be done away with as is, and just bits and pieces taken out. So someone is basically going to have to write a lot of new script for this mod, correct?

[Admetos]

I think we all know this mod's going to be a major task, so I guess we were expecting alot of scripting.

A new sig guys, Bosporas:

http://img35.picoodle.com/img/img35/6/10/28/admetos/f_bosporas2m_fa3cc75.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/28/admetos/f_bosporas2m_fa3cc75.jpg&srv=img35)

[Pharnakes]

Sorry Admetos, but I'm afraid your idea won't work, the reason for this is that if we do this, Indo-Helenics will no longer have their own culture slot, something that I at least am eager to see. Also, that way there will be no way to represent the Baktrians after you become Indo-Hellenic, plus the chances of the AI getting it will always be rather slim, unless we make it so easy that it would be a walkover for a human player. (eg. if we made the IG reforms occur when Baktria takes 5 Indian provs, I can guarante the Ai Baktria will go on a conquering spree into the Seleukids, and never even take Kophen :wall: )

[Admetos]

Bosporas sig updated - small typo fixed.

As for the AI, how does AI Hayasdan get on at the moment with thier reforms? As for culture, I guess we'll have to discuss that with Mailk as a team when he's online.

[Malik of Sindh]

I think Hayasdan is going to be a problem,since they will start independant,just like Parthia.And they have a border with seleucids too.And Im online now.


I think we all know this mod's going to be a major task, so I guess Malik will have to do alot of scripting,we will beat his total lazyness out of him.

For people who don't know who will do the scripting.

I still want playable Indo-Greeks

[Pharnakes]

And by the way people, we are recruiting, we need modelers and skinners especialy, just like every other mod out there.:wall:

[Admetos]

Another new sig, this time Atropatene:

http://img40.picoodle.com/img/img40/6/10/27/admetos/f_atropatenem_dda94b3.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/27/admetos/f_atropatenem_dda94b3.jpg&srv=img40)

[Malik of Sindh]

My latest:

Factions:

Seleukids : Romans_Brutti

Baktria : Romans_senate

Indo greeks : Romans_Julii

Ok, with this idea they all start out allied ect, as normal, then, one of three things will happen:

1. (power to the seleukids) The Selukids will restore their empire to a sufficent extent that they can now concentrate on teaching the semi anoutoums satrapies a lesson in obedience. This will be triggered by the seleukids taking all the provs of their empire, plus having a certain treasury level. The allaince will split in two : baktria and indo greek against seleucids, as Baktria is senate, indo greeks will support them.

2. (power to the Baktrians) They take a certain amount of land, they feel they now have enought power to declare their independence. This will be triggered again by land and treasury. Result Baktria goes to war with the Seleukids, Indo greeks support them in their own bid for independence (as Baktria is senate)

3. (power to the indo greeks) They take India, and no longer feel that they are a part of the Seleukid hegemony, again triggered by land and treasury. Result War against the Baktrians, the Seleukids support Baktria as a (relaitivley) loyal strapy, due to the fact that baktria is the senate.



Basics will edit in more details in a minute.

This is what we will use for Indo-Greeks,if you fans don't vote it down.

[Pharnakes]

In which case we'll use it anyway:whip:

[Sassem]

Really impressive guys

Good luck with it

[Malik of Sindh]

Really impressive guys

Good luck with it
Thanks,we will do our best :2thumbsup:

[glouch]

will it be ok to have EB1.0 and this mod? :D

[Malik of Sindh]

No,gotta make backups.

[Bootsiuv]

Well, my readings so far have turned up little of value...most of the books I found were rather broad histories on the east. Unfortunately, I found my initial fears realized when there was only a passing mention of any of the civilizations I was searching for. It would appear they were either not important enough, short-lived, or both. It would seem all three merit only a paragraph's worth in the overall history of the East (at least according to the authors I've read). So, there is little mention of them.

Naturally, I've found mountains of information on India and China, a good deal on Japan, and only a passing mention of areas outside these regions. It would seem that I must seek more specialized reference material.

I shall persist however. :bow:

Bootsiuv

[Malik of Sindh]

Well, my readings so far have turned up little of value...most of the books I found were rather broad histories on the east. Unfortunately, I found my initial fears realized when there was only a passing mention of any of the civilizations I was searching for. It would appear they were either not important enough, short-lived, or both. It would seem all three merit only a paragraph's worth in the overall history of the East (at least according to the authors I've read). So, there is little mention of them.

Naturally, I've found mountains of information on India and China, a good deal on Japan, and only a passing mention of areas outside these regions. It would seem that I must seek more specialized reference material.

I shall persist however. :bow:

Bootsiuv

Please do.We really need info on Bosphorans.Wusun research isn't as important as Bosphorans,since they were pretty much a clone of the sakans.BTW Pharnakes says we will soon have our own forums.

[KuKulzA]

I share your thoughts about the Galatians KuKulzA, but it seems the others will not be swayed. Also, looking at your list there, perhaps there is too many Hellenistic factions for an Eastern mod.

Does no-one think anyhing of my idea for the Baktrians then, having them re-form into Indo-Greeks like Hayasdan do at the moment?
I think there ARE too many Hellenistics... taking out an 'unnecessary' one for one that represents more unique elements would be nice... but like you said, they won't be swayed... shameful



I shall persist however. :bow:

Bootsiuv
sounds good :2thumbsup:

[keravnos]

I think we all know this mod's going to be a major task, so I guess we were expecting alot of scripting.

A new sig guys, Bosporas:

http://img02.picoodle.com/img/img02/6/10/27/admetos/f_bosporas2m_ed1f90d.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/27/admetos/f_bosporas2m_ed1f90d.jpg&srv=img02)

Sorry about this but it is "Bosproros", not "Bosporas".

Bosporus is the latin version of the greek "Bosporos". As it was a GrecoSkythian kingdom the best name for it would be "Bosporos".

or even better, "Basileion Bosporou" or Kingdom of Bosporos

[Pharnakes]

Sorry about this but it is "Bosproros", not "Bosporas".

Bosporus is the latin version of the greek "Bosporos". As it was a GrecoSkythian kingdom the best name for it would be "Bosporos".

or even better, "Basileion Bosporou" or Kingdom of Bosporos

Nothing to apologies for Keravnos, thanks very much:2thumbsup:

I'm sure Ademetos will change it once he comes online.

[Malik of Sindh]

I really think Admetos should stick with Kingdom of....Since faction names alone seem to not sound so good.Thank goodness My sig includes Basileio tes.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Hello boys. Time hasn't been that kind to me, but here are the promised referential plates for the Achaemenid style chariotry:

http://rapidshare.com/files/65759099/chariots.rar.html

Again, I'm not against chariots but would like to see their use as diminished as possible; In other words, their inclusion may even be considered conjectural. Limited in numbers, very expensive, and attired in a rather archaic manner. The only truly valid reason for including them is because the heavy chariots were often pulled by strong horses, presumably bred in Medea, in which Atropatene has a partial jurisdiction in. Ideally, we'd want the scythed chariots to be drawn by cataphracted horses; Not quite like Seleucid or Pontic chariots with their special hellenistic-style chamfrôn, but rather with armoured blankets/flanchards and a completely covering chamfrôn. The charioteer himself should be armed and attired accordingly to the driver in the "gaugamela.jpg"; With cheires on both arms, plumed assyrian helmet, scale corselet and a defensive collar/gorget.

The chariots are extremely heavy, and the wheels ought to be 12-spoked, giving it a tremendous stability for being such a crappy vehicle made of firewood (~:joker:). Additionally, the chariot itself is rectangular and not particularly aero-dynamic; Besides the scythes on the end of each axle, the chariot itself provides something of a battering ram or a blunt object which is supported by the yoke. Additionally the chariot itself was constructed to be a dangerous weapon; Spikes and sharp rivets are ornamented, but if you feel the need to add some regalia or a heraldic motif instead, you are free to do so. Traditionally these chariots were of the old school type and would feature a crew of at least two individuals; A driver and a support member who would chuck javelins or fire arrows.

[kambiz]

Wow Excellent stuffs TPC :2thumbsup: Thank you so much :smiley:

[Malik of Sindh]

Great,thanks for great info TPC,to bad I can't download from rapidshare,Pharnakes says he will download them.

[Admetos]

Thanks for that keravnos, I'll get onto that right now. :2thumbsup:

EDIT: Bosporan sig updated- see Post #160

[Pharnakes]

For those who can't use rapidshare:http://uploaded.to/?id=gquhe5

[Pharnakes]

Okay, guys, we got our forums: here. (http://3rdshock.org/mod/index.php)

Every one imediatley add to favourites or face my anger!:whip:


And yes, I will be your benevolent Basileios of the Basileion Asia ton Barbarbaron. Well, fairly benevolent anyway...


Watch your spamming Malik:whip:

[Malik of Sindh]

Watch your double posting,Pharnakes!

By the way,forums still are kinda ugly,so don't mess there.We will create everything slowly,And make admetos make a skin for the forums.Pharnakes posted the link too early >:(

[keravnos]

Watch your double posting,Pharnakes!

By the way,forums still are kinda ugly,so don't mess there.We will create everything slowly,And make admetos make a skin for the forums.Pharnakes posted the link too early >:(

I am a bit embarassed to admit that your sig needs to have a "N" added to "BASILEIO". It is "BASILEION TES INDIAS"="Kingdom of India". I am really sorry about that. Don't know how I missed it. :embarassed:

[Malik of Sindh]

Ill have Admetos fix it when hes online.Anyway,we got our forum going,more or less.We still need a skin though.Everyone is welcome now.

[keravnos]

I also just realised that "Bosporou" should be "Bosphorou". Modern greek creeping in again.

A different transilteration is used from ancient greek to english than to modern greek.

You must also be made aware of the following fact. There is no small "y" in greek. "u" is used instead. So what in capital greek would be "ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΟΝ ΒΟΣΠΟΡΟΥ" in lower greek would be "Βασίλειον Βοσπόρου".

I don't know which you will elect to use, "u" is more than fine, actually I would go with that, but I had to let you guys know.
"Basileion Bosphorou" as would be its transliteration in english (from ancient greek).

[Malik of Sindh]

Thanks for your support Keravnos.Admetos didin't come online yesterday,and I didin't see him today either.Hope his mom didin't do anything bad to him :laugh4:.Honestly I think taking his RTW cd was enough punishment for being computer zombie.

[LotW89]

Is there going to be a japanese faction too?
It would be great if the map is that big, that Japan is on the map :D

[Malik of Sindh]

Check the first post,it shows the maps extent.Its Greece to Bengal.

[KuKulzA]

Is there going to be a japanese faction too?
It would be great if the map is that big, that Japan is on the map :D
just to let you know... most people when they like Japan like the samurai and stuff...
well in this timeframe Japanese was beginning to use bronze and iron and the Yayoi tribe was pushing the Ainu up to Hokkaido...

this is not the sophisticated and feudal Japanese everyone loves for some reason but the tribal and I guess so-called "primitive" Japan... its the very early beginnings of Japanese civilization...

a parallel could be those tribes you see on the Baltic in EB, they had a culture and all but they were behind everyone else in terms of power and progress... but they had their own culture, wars, etc.... just like the Japanese in this time period..

[LotW89]

Uhm, I know that Japan was primitive in this time, so I wonder if there will be a japanese faction...

btw: Yes, I like samurai, and I am a samurai & a little bit ninja, but you won't believe it I think ;)

[Pharnakes]

Anyhow, the discusion is pointless, thers is simply NO way we are going to include China, Japan or anywhere signifigantly beyond the point we have reached. This decision is finnal and irevocable, any more mention of this or Galatains, will not be tolerated.


Simple enough people, do try and use your common sense and read the first post a bit before you reply.

[KuKulzA]

Anyhow, the discusion is pointless, thers is simply NO way we are going to include China, Japan or anywhere signifigantly beyond the point we have reached. This decision is finnal and irevocable, any more mention of this or Galatains, will not be tolerated.


Simple enough people, do try and use your common sense and read the first post a bit before you reply.
true true, well said

Galatians.. *sigh* :shame:

[Pharnakes]

ZOMG, OMFG You mentioned t3h Gal@7A1nZz!11!!one!!!!!1111!eleventeen!111!!!!!!!
BanZ0r3d!11!!


Never mind KuKulzA, there will be a realse with Galatains in it.:balloon:

[Admetos]

For updated Bosporas and Indo-Greek sigs, go to this (http://3rdshock.org/mod/index.php?topic=5.0) link.

[Zerempil]

This idea probably isn't really viable, since it would involve a lot more work than your current plan, but I think it might be more interesting to move your start date to sometime around 185 B.C., right after the collapse of the Maurya Empire. This would solve the Indo-Greek problem. Instead of the Mauryas, you'd probably have the Sungas and the Satavahanas in India, along with the Indo-Greeks. You'd have a scenario somewhat similar to the one in the west in 272, when EB starts, with a large empire that had recently fallen apart and been divided into several "successor" states, which might make for a better playing experience than having a large section of your map dominated by one of history's largest empires at the height of its power.

You could also probably put the Yuezhi on the map by this point, making them playable. You'd probably have to drop some existing factions for this to work (maybe Kyrene?).

This probably isn't a workable idea, though, as it might reduce the amount of overlap you'd have with EB, creating a lot more work for you.

[Admetos]

I think there has been talk of this before, and as you say, it just adds extra work, if we did this,we'd theoretically be creating a mod *that we hope* will be up to EB standards with at the moment just three people. It just isn't viable.

[IndianPrince]

WOOHOO FINALLY !!! EAST EAST EAST EAST EAST !!! :)

Prince

[KuKulzA]

ZOMG, OMFG You mentioned t3h Gal@7A1nZz!11!!one!!!!!1111!eleventeen!111!!!!!!!
BanZ0r3d!11!!


Never mind KuKulzA, there will be a realse with Galatains in it.:balloon:
:laugh4: all in good humor my friend


This idea probably isn't really viable, since it would involve a lot more work than your current plan, but I think it might be more interesting to move your start date to sometime around 185 B.C., right after the collapse of the Maurya Empire. This would solve the Indo-Greek problem. Instead of the Mauryas, you'd probably have the Sungas and the Satavahanas in India, along with the Indo-Greeks. You'd have a scenario somewhat similar to the one in the west in 272, when EB starts, with a large empire that had recently fallen apart and been divided into several "successor" states, which might make for a better playing experience than having a large section of your map dominated by one of history's largest empires at the height of its power.

You could also probably put the Yuezhi on the map by this point, making them playable. You'd probably have to drop some existing factions for this to work (maybe Kyrene?).

This probably isn't a workable idea, though, as it might reduce the amount of overlap you'd have with EB, creating a lot more work for you.
this would be interesting... but as of now with the timeframe that is official, we have a lot of the work cut-out for us, especially in the western area of the map... your suggestion sounds cool, but consider all the work we'll have to do as a result... accurately portraying the new factions and making everything run correctly, and having the models, scripts, etc. for the mod as is will be hard enough...

[Malik of Sindh]

WOOHOO FINALLY !!! EAST EAST EAST EAST EAST !!! :)

Prince
Thanks,we will do our best.


Now about the starting date:We are not changing it.It was changed 3 times before(280 bc,268bc,260 bc),and 260bc is the date that suits this mod best.

Oh and AtB will have events(like reforms) and traits for generals/governons to simulate Mauryan decline.

[Malik of Sindh]

Ignore

[TWFanatic]

This looks like a fascinating mod. I will certainly keep an eye on it. Keep up the good work guys.:2thumbsup:

[Malik of Sindh]

Thank you.If you guys would only post more suggestions...

[Tarkus]

Sorry, guys -- I don't have much to contribute at the moment to the development of this mod...but I wanted to say how much I have enjoyed reading through the information presented here! A-history-lesson-in-a-box!

I'm sending lots of positive vibes your way...keep up the amazing work and enthusiasm...:balloon2:

[Pharnakes]

Thanks for all the support guys, and like Malik says, suggestions are more than welcome.

[russia almighty]

Are you going to develop new units or are you going to borrow other people's work for the Mauryan's ?

Cause right now that would be the smartest thing .

[Malik of Sindh]

Yes,we are thinking of borrowing units from other mods,since we don't have any modelers or skinners.We will also borrowing chariots with 4 horses from FATW,they will only need a reskin.

[KuKulzA]

personally I feel if we could get custom models for them that'd be ideal... but I'll search for willing modelers...

[TWFanatic]

I would, but I'm an eastern noob. My knowledge of the east between 500 BC and today is limited to fireworks, ninjas, and Toyotas. At least I think they came in that order... :book:

[Malik of Sindh]

You mean youre a modeler?This is not far east mod its middle east mod,so its Greece-Bengal(includes Greece to Indian suncontinent).i don't care what your experience is,since we don't have ANYONE to do the units.Middle east was mainly hellenic at this time and I think only new units we would need would be Indian and some Persian ones,add a few more hellenic ones.So could you please help this mod?

[TWFanatic]

No...when I said "I would but" I meant "I would give suggestions but," not help with modeling. I am not a modeler. Sorry, I'd help if I was. Most of what I've done modding-wise is some basic texturing (I've created and reskinned a few units for vanilla RTW in my time) and countless hours spent screwing around in the EDU file of every mod I've ever had. It's an urge I cannot control - I'm never happy with what I have (see First Cohort/Phalanx/Char/Ele mod).

So I'm not sure if I'd be of any use. Let me know if there’s anything I can do, though.

[Malik of Sindh]

Oh,ok,you posted a few posts later,which were about modelers so I thought...

[Admetos]

We'd love it if you could help us Fanatic, we've only got a small team at the moment so we need all the help we can get.

[Malik of Sindh]

Yeah,I agree too,please join us TWFanatic.

[TWFanatic]

Oh,ok,you posted a few posts later,which were about modelers so I thought...
Yeah my bad, I was unclear.

Well what would you want me to do? I suppose I could be an EDU editter (unit statistician).

[Admetos]

Anything and everything you feel comfortable with. :laugh4:

[Malik of Sindh]

Ok, Edu guy works.Just change your title and were good to go.

[TWFanatic]

Time spent modding EB 1.0: too many hours to count.
Time spent playing EB 1.0 for fun: about 2 hours.
Joining a modding team for a game you have yet to really play: priceless.

Alright then. I'll do what I can.

[Pharnakes]

Good to have you TWFanatic. :balloon:

[Hound of Ulster]

This looks like it could be fun.

Good luck.

[Malik of Sindh]

Added A map with faction positions in first post.

[Admetos]

The factions map:
http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/6/11/1/admetos/t_mapm_8d157e4.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/11/1/admetos/f_mapm_8d157e4.jpg&srv=img33)

The Admetos Special Edition:
http://img01.picoodle.com/img/img01/6/11/1/admetos/t_map2m_68777c6.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/11/1/admetos/f_map2m_68777c6.jpg&srv=img01)

Spot the difference.

:laugh4:

[Pharnakes]

Very nice work, I'l send the hitman imdeiately (I haven't even looked at the maps yet but I can guess what the difference is)


:smash: :whip:

[Roman_Man#3]

clearly, you've added the galatians in place of Cyrene

[Hound of Ulster]

What's the release date you guys are shooting for in terms of at least a beta?

[Admetos]

Why Pharnakes do you jump to conclusions without even looking at the map? But yes, I guess it was obvious what I'd done without even looking. :laugh4:

Still, I WILL get my Galatians eventually. :laugh4:

EDIT: We can't even speculate a release date at the moment, we haven't even started any modding yet. Of course, if we got some help it would be able to be released alot quicker...

[Malik of Sindh]

The factions map:
http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/6/11/1/admetos/t_mapm_8d157e4.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/11/1/admetos/f_mapm_8d157e4.jpg&srv=img33)

The Admetos Special Edition:
http://img01.picoodle.com/img/img01/6/11/1/admetos/t_map2m_68777c6.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/11/1/admetos/f_map2m_68777c6.jpg&srv=img01)

Spot the difference.

:laugh4:
We got a free slot remember?No need to scrap Cyrene.Oh,and Mauryan border should be a little bit higher.

[Malik of Sindh]

Tamils changed to pandya.if anyone is wondering its just a name change.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Atropatene needs something of an adjustment in size; Please refer to this map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/World_323_BCE.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/World_200_BCE.PNG

[Malik of Sindh]

Yes,some things need to be fixed but admetos is not online now.

[Malik of Sindh]

Updated first post "The team currentily needs" section.We are looking for a historian on India.Any historians on succesors are welcome too.

[KuKulzA]

I've been looking through the Kautilya's Arthashastra (1915 Shamasastry translation) (http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/history/primarydocs/Arthashastra/index.htm)...
it's like an ancient Indian text similar to Art of War

as a researcher... I should try to make construction-trees and soldier-types based off the historical evidence? Cause unless asked not to, I figure that's what I'm gonna do. :2thumbsup:

I think I've got some good ideas down and I'll post them up soon

[Pharnakes]

Yup, thats the idea, thanks very much for this Kulkulza:2thumbsup:

[Malik of Sindh]

In 1 month,Pharnakes is going to get his new computer,and he will start creating the map.So I guess we will soon get started.

[keravnos]

Great news. I love where you are going with this guys, do keep going!

[Malik of Sindh]

It great when we get encouragement from EB team.Thank you!

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yes,we are thinking of borrowing units from other mods,since we don't have any modelers or skinners.We will also borrowing chariots with 4 horses from FATW,they will only need a reskin.

Borrow?! You are gonna give them back again then?! :laugh4:

[Tellos Athenaios]

We got a free slot remember?No need to scrap Cyrene.Oh,and Mauryan border should be a little bit higher.

You've axed the Getai then?

[Pharnakes]

Yeah, barbarians are right out. Dunno why we call it Asia ton Barbaron, really.:shrug:

[KuKulzA]

Yeah, barbarians are right out. Dunno why we call it Asia ton Barbaron, really.:shrug:
I don't get it either... let's rename it...

[Admetos]

I like the name, I feel it keeps a link with EB.

[Pharnakes]

TBH, so do I, I wasn't really serious about renaming it, but if you have any suggestions, KuKulzA...

[Malik of Sindh]

Damn I had connection problems yesterday.Im the I-answer-all-the-questions guy,not you!:whip: :laugh4:

[Pharnakes]

Look, just cause I have 4.5 times as many posts as you do, there is no need to get jealous...:sweatdrop:

[Charge]

Why, Pharnakes, you cant start doing map now?

[Pharnakes]

Look, if I even thought about downloading an eb instaler on this comp, let alone instaling anything, it would explode. In other words no.

[artavazd]

I was looking at the factions, and I noticed you guys have Satrapy of Hay. First of all it should be Satrapy of Hayasdan, because Satrapy of Hay/Hai translates to (Satrapyt of Armenian) it makes no sense. If it takes place in the same timeframe as EB, than Armenia was not a satrapy, and should be called Kingdom of Armenia, Kingdom of Hayasdan or in Armenian, Hayoc/Haioc Arkahutsiun.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Yeah, I noticed too; If specifics are requested, this the Orontid (Yervanduni) dynasty of Armenia, but one may leave this specific piece out and just make it kingdom of Armenia.

[keravnos]

Yeah, barbarians are right out. Dunno why we call it Asia ton Barbaron, really.:shrug:

Oh, you are VERY right. For the mods' timeline, Greeks were considered barbarians for both the old Achaimenid aristocracy in places where it remained (Atropatene, Hayasdan, Pontos) as well as for the Indians, when the Maurya empire collapsed.

In some puranic text Yavanas, in some texts they are synonym with "mlecchas"=barbarians, and the word can be used for murder, abortion, pillage etc.
(Not to mention the Saka, Yuehzi et al.)

Don't you worry about changing AtB's name. Who you considered Civilised and Barbarians aren't what you thought. It is all in the eye of the beholder, who one writes about. For example the texts about the Yavanas were written mostly by Hindu Brahmin, who were dead against them from the time of Alexander the Great, till the time of Chadragupta II of the Guptas who is said to have "cleared off" all "outider" nations in India.

Some truths remain, aka, a people responsible for such architectural, sociological, and politeiological marvels, as ancient greeks, cannot be Barbarians. I do believe that. Still, for an Indian whose life was destroyed by rampaging Baktrian horsemen, or temple of worship or family, can't be very sympathetic now, can he?