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econ21
10-24-2007, 00:28
This thread is for all out of character discussion of the King of the Romans PBM - a HRE M2TW game. Please post in this thread if you have any queries or are unsure where to post.

The list of players and description of their avatars is maintained in the first post of the Chancellor and Governors thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383081&postcount=1



*************KOTR FAQ (UPDATED)**********************

The following paragraphs are designed to provide a simple understanding of the KOTR game and how it works. If anything in these paragraphs conflicts with one of the Game Rules, the Rule takes precedent.

Introduction

The general idea of the King of the Romans (KOTR) game is to allow a large group of players to determine the fate and development of the Holy Roman Empire in M2TW.

All players are “Electors” and will belong to one of the four Ducal Houses, Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). Eventually all players will be represented by an in-game character known as an “avatar.” This will typically be a general, but agents such as spies, priests or diplomats can be used as well upon request. It is not advisable to use an assassin as an avatar, as they have short life expectancies. If a player’s avatar gets into a battle, the player is expected to download the savegame and fight the battle.

Collectively, the Electors form the Imperial Diet. This has two functions - to elect a Chancellor and to create Edicts. The Chancellor will be the “reigning player” and control the game during his term in office. He will move all the generals, authorize any buildings from the build queues and train any units/agents. “Edicts” are laws that require the Chancellor to take specific actions. These can be very wide ranging in scope, but typically include such things as declaring war against another nation, seeking an alliance with a neutral country, or making peace with an enemy nation.

How to Join the Game

In order to join the game and get started, all you need to do is post in the current OOC thread that you would like to join and select one of the four Ducal Houses. You can then start participating in as much or as little detail as you wish. You will always be able to find the location of the relevant game threads in the second post of the Imperial Library (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383644&postcount=2).

The Ranks

KOTR attempts to mimic the feudal political system of medieval Europe. There are several ranks which each player can obtain, all of which come with their own benefit and responsibilities. If you wish to be highly involved, you can take on roles that require more work and responsibility. If you wish to simply observe and cast votes during election times, you will have to do very little. The extent of your involvement is entirely up to you.

Electors

All players, except the Emperor, are Electors, even if they hold another rank. It is the lowest rank in the game and all new players begin at this level. As an Elector, you may speak in the Imperial Diet, propose one Edict per session, vote on Edicts, and vote for Chancellor. All Electors belong to one of the Ducal Houses. You are not required to follow the orders or suggestions of your Duke, but he has the ability to bestow and remove ranks and privileges. If you have ambitions to rise to a higher rank, carefully consider whether your Duke will approve of your actions or not.

It is important to remember that you can only freely propose one personal Edict per Diet session. Choose an issue that is important to you and think very carefully about how you word it. A poorly worded or unimportant Edict can easily be ignored and forgotten. The only way you can propose more than one Edict per Diet session is through the approval of your Duke.

Electors will be provided with avatars on the basis of seniority; first come, first served. Generals are the most popular avatars and there may be a waiting period to obtain one. Agent avatars can usually be obtained quickly, but are not as complex and are not really suited for players who wish to rise to a higher rank. If you take a general as an avatar, you will be expected to fight any battles the avatar gets into, assuming he commands the army. You will have 48 hours in which to fight the battle after you are notified about it. When that time expires, the battle will be autoresolved, which could result in the death of your avatar. If you do not want to fight battles and there is a shortage of generals for avatars, please do not accept one. If you want an avatar but do not wish to fight, please consider using an agent.

Counts

Counts are prominent nobles within their Houses. The title of Count can be bestowed upon an Elector by his Duke. The role of Count is identical to that of an Elector with a general avatar, with a few exceptions.

A Count rules over one of the settlements (city or castle) in his Ducal House. The Count may, at his discretion, determine the order in which buildings are created in that settlement (build queue). The Chancellor is not required to build anything in the settlement, but if something is built, it must be in the order determined by the Count. The Count can also set the tax rate in his settlement, if it is a city. Counts gain a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. Counts can name an heir to take over their lands when they die. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar who is not already a Count.

There are two kinds of Counts: Freehold Counts and Bonded Counts. The difference is simple. Freehold Counts are the natural born sons of a Duke. They cannot be removed from control of their settlement, though the Duke can still name another as his heir if a Freehold Count displeases him. Bonded Counts are non-blood sons of a Duke, such as adoptees, sons-in-law, or anyone else who is not a natural born son. Bonded Counts can be stripped of their titles and lands at any time and for any reason by the Duke.

Dukes

Dukes are the heads of the Houses. They are figures of authority and they wield a great deal of power. There is only one Duke per House and a player can only become Duke by being the Duke’s heir at the time of his death. The role of Duke has many more powers than that of Count and Dukes gain a significant influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

The Duke rules over the capital of his House and all provinces which do not have a Count. Just like with a Count, the Duke can determine the build queue and tax rate for these settlements, but he can give orders for as many of them as he wishes. Dukes are also responsible for promoting and demoting Bonded Counts. A Duke may give any Elector with a general avatar the rank of Count, making them a Bonded Count. He may take away their lands at any time or switch their lands as he sees fit. The Duke can name an heir to take over as head of his House when he dies. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar, and it is recommended (though not necessary) that the person already be a Count.

The Duke is responsible for managing the affairs of his House and will often be dealing directly with the Chancellor and the Kaiser in high-level political discussions. Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. These can be the Duke’s own Edicts, but it is recommended that the Duke pick at least some of them from amongst the ‘extras’ his Electors want to put forward. It would be entirely appropriate for the Duke to use incentives and threats to ensure that the policies he wants get put forward. However, remember that even these extra Edict proposals must come pre-seconded by two members of his House. Don’t anger too many of your Electors or they could prevent you from using your extra Edict proposals!

Finally, the Duke controls the Household Army. The Household Army is the House’s personal military force and it is largely independent of outside control. The Duke is responsible for determining where it is garrisoned, who commands it, and what orders it is given. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Stewards

Stewards are Electors who are temporarily acting as Dukes. KOTR originally started with two Stewards, but for the most part, the title of Steward is a temporary one bestowed on a House Elector for a short time when a Duke is unavailable to fulfill his duties. In reality, this happens when a player who is a Duke is going on vacation or is otherwise going to be out-of-touch with the game for a short period of time.

Stewards have all of the powers of Dukes for the duration of their term, except that they cannot name an heir.

Emperor (Kaiser)

The Holy Roman Emperor is the supreme head of the Empire. It is a hereditary position. (Note: This is not historical, but there’s no way to change this in-game.) While the Emperor is theoretically the most powerful man in the entire Empire, in the KOTR game he plays a more subtle role. The Emperor gains an influence bonus equal to his authority during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

First, the Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet. It is his job to maintain order in the Diet and ensure that it runs smoothly. If there is a dispute about the Game Rules, the Emperor will make the final decision about the proper manner to follow the Rules.

Second, the Emperor does not belong to any of the Ducal Houses. Upon inheriting the throne, they leave their old House for good and lose any other titles (Elector, Count, Duke) that they might have. The Emperor is expected to act for the good of the Empire, rather than an individual House. While Emperors are expected to be impartial, they will certainly have strong opinions about what is best for the Empire. This may in turn result in them siding with Houses that support their decisions and working against Houses that they believe are hurting the Empire.

Third, Emperors allocate newly captured provinces to the Ducal Houses. When a province is captured, it comes under the direct control of the Emperor, who can control them in the same manner that the Dukes and the Counts can control their own lands. The Emperor may allocate any of his lands to any of the Ducal Houses. Once allocated, they cannot ever be returned to the Emperor. House provinces where are re-taken after being occupied by an enemy do not count as being “captured.”

Fourth, Emperors decide which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.

Finally, Emperors can automatically assume the position of Chancellor for the first term after they are crowned. This power is not subject to Diet vote and no one can run against them. However, the Emperor still has the limitations of Chancellor while in office, which means he can be impeached by the Diet in exceptional circumstances. Any further attempts by the Emperor to be Chancellor must go through the normal election process.

Prince (Prinz)

The Prince is a largely unimportant role, significant mainly because he is the heir to the throne and will become the next Emperor. Unlike the title of Emperor, the title of Prince is added in addition to any other titles the player holds. This gives the player a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. The Prince’s only duty is to preside over the Diet when the Emperor is absent.

There is no control over who becomes the new Prince once the current one assumes the throne. Like with the Emperor, this is a limitation imposed on us by the game itself. With luck, the role will only fall on players who seek to be active in the game. (*cross your fingers!*)

In practical terms, players must always remember that the Prince will inherit the throne, thus gaining power over the Houses through his ability to allocate newly conquered provinces. If you make an enemy of the Prince, your House might find itself smaller than the others when he becomes Emperor.

Chancellor

The position of Chancellor is without a doubt the most important and powerful one in KOTR. In game terms, the Chancellor is the person who actually plays the M2TW game. Unlike the other positions, you shouldn’t think of the Chancellor in the sense of what he can do, but rather what he cannot do. He is essentially playing the single player M2TW campaign with the following restrictions:

The Chancellor must obey the Game Rules and Edicts that have been passed by the Diet. Failure to do so can lead to impeachment by the Diet.

The Chancellor decides whether buildings are to be constructed in all settlements. If a settlement has a build queue from a Count, Duke, or Emperor, then he must build the items on that list in the order listed. However, he does not have to build anything at all if he does not want to, he only has to follow the build queue if he does decide to build something. If a settlement has no build queue for whatever reason, the Chancellor can build whatever he likes.

The Chancellor moves the armies and hands out saved games to be played by the appropriate generals. He can fight battles that his avatar is commanding whenever he wants without pause, but must give other players 48 hours to fight their battles. If a player exceeds the time limit or if the battle is lead by a Captain or a general that is not represented by a player, the battle must be autoresolved. The only exception to the Chancellor’s control over the armies are the Household Armies. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Essentially everything else is free game. If there isn’t a Rule or Edict about it, the Chancellor can do whatever he wants. The Chancellor’s term last for 10 game turns (20 game years), but he can run for re-election if he wishes. In recognition for his contributions, the Chancellor gets a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor, even after he leaves office.


***************KOTR GAME RULES**************

Game settings

*MT2TW with the 1.3 patch
Kingdoms installs 1.3. If you do not have 1.3, there is a free patch you can download and install:
http://download.sega.com/u/med2/patch/1.3_retail/Medieval%20II_Update3_Compatibility_Patch_EFIGS.rar
You need to install this on top of 1.2.
*Hard campaigns, very hard battles.
*Large unit size.
*Battle timer on. Show CPU Moves, Manage all Settlements
Standard victory conditions (45 provinces, including Rome).

Charter Amendment 6.2: Medifix will no longer be used and in its stead, FactionHeir's trait and ancillary fixes will be implemented. He will also take full responsibility of any issues regarding these files, however unlikely these may be after extensive testing.

The only mod we will use is the trait and ancillary files created by factionheir, available to download at:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix129.zip

Charter Amendment CAE1.1: econ21 will be authorised to give AI factions extra florins; for example, by gifting them a lump sum every 10 turns or so.

To increase the difficulty, the AI will periodically be given money via the consol.

The console command to give 10000 florins to Hungary is:

add_money hungary, 10000

The list of major factions is:

england
france
spain
venice
sicily
milan
scotland
byzantium
russia
moors
turks
egypt
denmark
portugal
poland
hungary

The Mongols, Timurids and Aztecs may be included at a later stage.

Probably the best practice is to top up factions with less than 50k, at a rate of perhaps 10k per turn.



Hard restrictions on play: * only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.

How to play - detailed rules


1. The role of players.

1.1 Each player will roleplay an “elector” of the HRE. They must choose one of four noble houses to belong to. Players are born into a noble House. It is in their blood and cannot be changed. It is determined by which of the four lines on the family tree their avatar falls under (except for the three starter Generals, for whom it is determined by their initial geography). [Note - if avatars spawn disproportionately in certain Houses, Electors of one House may be offered an avatar of another, but then they effectively role-play a new character.]

Charter Amendment 9.2: Add to article 1.1:
In view of exceptional circumstances, the von Mahren family is allowed to join the House of Austria.

1.2 Over time, all players will be assigned an avatar (typically a general) by econ21 to represent them. They should roleplay their traits.

1.3 Players whose avatars lead in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved.

OOC Charter Amendment:
(a) Where there are multiple player controlled generals in a stack, then the player who plays out the battle is determined by who the computer designates is in command.
(b) An exception is that Household Armies (and the Army of Outremer) are always commanded by the designated Commander of said army.
(c) The commanding general may allow another player to fight a battle by mutual consent for OOC reasons.

1.4 Players whose avatars are Counts are entitled to set the taxes and build queue of that settlement. If anything is built in the settlement, it must be the first item on the build queue.
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 1: Amend 1.4 by adding: If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Chancellor can build what he likes. The Chancellor may upgrade a settlement at any time (ie upgrade the walls regardless of a build queue), unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the governor.

1.5 Each elector will periodically vote to elect a Chancellor (reigning player) of the HRE and on edicts to direct him.

1.6 Players are encouraged to stand for the post of Chancellor.

1.7 Players are encouraged to write in-character stories in the stories thread; to discuss matters of state in the Imperial Diet deliberations thread; to write-up battle reports; to PM each other in character for role-playing etc. [Note: when posting screenshots, we could keep them full size but put them under spoiler tags.]


2. The role of the Chancellor.

2.1 The Chancellor is much like the player of a solo M2TW campaign - he moves all the units and agents on the map; he decides all the buildings and which units/agents to be trained.

2.2 However, he delegates battles to the player whose general leads the HRE force. And he follows the build queues and tax policies of players with governors.

2.3 He also must obey Imperial edicts and the constitution (these rules) or face political consequences.

2.4 The Chancellor is elected every 10 turns. Incumbent Chancellors can run for re-election if they wish.

2.5 The Chancellor must appoint army commanders. He must maintain a list of who has what post and notify players if they are appointed or dismissed from a role.

2.6 Battles are only fought manually when commanded by a player controlled general who is an army commander. They are autoresolved in all other cases (e.g. captain-led armies).

Charter Amendment E2.1:
(a) If an Edict to impeach the Chancellor is passed with a 2/3 majority, he is removed from office immediately.
(b) After impeachment, a fresh election is held to elect a new Chancellor, although a Kaiser may also exercise his perogative to be Chancellor at that point.
(c) The Chancellor replacing an impeached Chancellor serves out the remainder of the impeached Chancellor's term.
(d) All edicts passed in the Diet that elected the impeached Chancellor remain valid, unless overturned by new Edicts at the Emergency Session that impeached him.
(e) An impeached chancellor is not granted the additional bonus to influence that an ex-chancellor would normally be given.

Charter Amendment 11.5: All cities must have their maximum amount of free upkeep militia within their walls all times, except when the militia is used to fight armies observed to be within the boundaries of their province.


3. The role of the Imperial Diet

3.1. The Imperial Diet will meet in session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each session lasts 3 days of real time.

3.2. At each session, nobles can propose edicts. These require two seconders to be put to the vote. Edicts are laws that direct what the Chancellor should do.

Charter Ammendment 5.2: Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. In the case where there are only 1 or 2 electors in total in a Duke's House, a House edict may still be put forward to the diet requiring only the number of possible seconding electors in the House as seconders.

3.3. Any declaration of war must be authorised by an Imperial edict. The Chancellor or any Duke is empowered to declare war on a non-allied army entering its lands.

Charter Amendment 10.2:
(a) No settlement will be captured without an Edict authorising its acquisition in advance.
(b) Captured settlements will be abandoned or given away unless, at the next Diet session, a Charter Amendment incorporates them formally as part of the Reich.
(c) The 33 existing provinces of the Reich are exempt from (a) and (b).
(d) This amendment overrides the constitutional right of Household Armies to conquer one neighbouring province.
Proposed: Kaiser Henry
Seconded: Conrad Salier, Ansehelm von Kastilien

Charter Amendment 12.1: The province of Bran is to be incorporated formally into the Holy Roman Empire.

Charter Amendment 12.8: Ajaccio and Cagliari are to be incorporated into the Reich. The Chancellor is directed to trade Cagliari to any foe if it can bring about a peace between our nations.

*3.4. The rules of the game can be changed by a Noble Charter Amendments (2/3 majority required) except those marked with a *.

3.5. Tied edicts fail. If contradictory edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority.

3.6. Edicts can only last for 10 turns.

3.7. Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

*3.8. The Chancellor can be impeached and removed from office by a 2/3 majority of the Imperial Diet.

3.9. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final. The Prince can preside in the absence of the Emperor. The Emperor can call an emergency session of the Imperial Diet - freeze the game - at will.
Charter Amendment 8.2: In addition to the Kaiser, an Emergency Session of the Diet may be called by the Prinz, or if three of the four House leaders (Dukes or Stewards) agree to do so.

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +6 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 4 points):
Duke: +3
King: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.

Charter Amendment 6.7: Any decision that would lead to the excommunication of the Reich has to be authorized by a Diet vote, requiring a 2/3 majority. In the event of a conflict, this Amendment supercedes Rule 3.3 and Charter Amendment 5.1.


4. The role of the four houses - Dukes and Counts

4.1 There will be four houses representing the four main branches of the family tree: Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). At the start of the game, Prince Henry is Duke of Swabia and Leopold is Duke of Austria. The Dukes of Franconia and Bavaria have not yet been spawned (they will be the two males who take positions under the Emperor in the family tree).

4.2 Bavaria and Franconia have no Duke yet, so there are Stewards to act in their place until them. Until there is a Duke, they receive the +2 influence of a Duke.

Charter Amendment 3.1: Stewards may bestow the rank of Count on nobles of their House. This Amendment does not give Stewards any other Ducal power, it does not give Stewards additional Influence, nor does it allow Stewards to be Counts themselves.

The Stewards themselves are not Counts. Like Otto in Innsbruck, they are just soldiers, self-made men of lesser station [think Denethor in Lord of the Rings]. They could be rewarded by being made a Count by their Duke when he spawns, though. And they could marry into the Royal line, potentially becoming the Duke themselves.

4.3 The Emperor controls the initial allocation of settlements (e.g. upon conquest). At the start of the game, we have:

Frankfurt - capital of Franconia, home of the Duke (TBC)
Stafen - capital of Swabia, home of the Duke (Prince Henry)
Nuremburg - capital of Bavaria, home of the Duke (TBC)
Innsbruck - second city of Bavaria
Vienna - capital of Austria, home of the Duke (Leopold)
Bologna - is not assigned to any house

4.4 Dukes can then grant a settlement to a player, making him Count of that settlement. The settlements remain nominally within the relevant Duchy. There are no Counts at the start of the game. Capitals of a House need no Counts and cannot be given to them - they belong to the Duke (or his Steward). The Emperor could allocate Bologna to a House at any time, but after that, it will permanently belong to that House. There is an expectation that Franconia will extend north, Swabia west, Bavaria south and Austria east but this should not be followed too rigidly - e.g. the Emperor does not have to give Bologna to Bavaria.

[Note: It is expected that settlements will not be gifted lightly by the Emperor and by Dukes/Stewards - they should be regarded as precious rewards. There is no particular value to settlements in themselves, however. Avatars will be assigned according to the family tree, so more settlements does not mean more family members in a House - nor does it raise influence (beyond the one-off +1 for being a Count). A player cannot be the Count of more than one settlement. Dukes can have more than one settlement not dispersed to counts (and given the ratio of settlements to generals in a game, this is inevitable), but this provides no particular benefits.]

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

4.6 Counts who are not the natural sons of a Duke (e.g. adoptees and sons in law) may be lose their titles at the whim of the Duke. They are referred to as bonded Counts and are expected to act according to the wishes of their Duke. Natural sons of a Duke may not lose their settlements - they are referred to as freehold Counts.

4.7 Dukes and Counts should name a successor, who will take over their titles and settlements when they die. If no successor is named, the oldest natural son inherits, (if none, oldest adopted son; if none again, then the oldest son-in-law).
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 2: Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.

4.8 Dukes are expected to guide their families for the good for their Duchies. Members of a house do not have to follow their Dukes in terms of politics. However, the Duke can make players a Count by giving them a settlement (granting them +1 influence). Only the Duke of your House (not another Duke) can make you a Count. Houses will not be the only division in the Diet - chivalry, piety, strategy and other factors may also divide players.

Charter Amendment 6.3: Dukes may bestow the title of Count on Electors without avatars.


5 The role of the Emperor and Prince

5.1 The Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet as in 3.9. He is the "chairman" of the HRE, as opposed to the Chancellor who is the "chief executive". He will keep order in the Diet and try to make things run smoothly.

5.2 Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.

5.3 The Emperor can allocate settlements to one of the Four Houses.

5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes.
Charter Amendment 11.7: The section of the Charter which currently reads "5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes" will be changed to the following: 5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes. However, if a rules dispute directly involves the Emperor, the four Dukes of the Realm (or their appointed deputies) will gather to assist the Emperor in clarifying the dispute. A simple vote among the Dukes would decide the dispute, with the Emperor having the tie-breaking vote.

5.5 The Prince succeeds the Emperor and can deputise in his absence.

Charter Amendment 11.2:The Prince is appointed by the Emperor upon his ascension to the throne. Should a Prince die a new heir has to be appointed immediately.[/i]

Charter Amendment 11.1: Whenever a large dispute arises over the legitamacy of one's succesion to a position of high power (Kaiser, King of Outremer, or Dukedom), a council shall be set forth to discuss the events and vote on who shal succede. Should the position of Kaiser be questioned, the four Dukes and the King of Outremer shall decide who is to become Kaiser. Should a Dukedom or the King of Outremer be under dispute, those not directly involved in the dispute shall be part of the council. In order for the council to be formed, at least one quarter of the voting power in the Reich is needed to for the council to be formed. Regarding the dukes, half of the voting period within the house is needed as the same with the King of Outremer which requires half of the crusader's votes.

5.6 Emperors do not belong to factions - if crowned, they leave their House and - if Duke - are replaced by their chosen successor. They are expected to act for the good of the Empire and be impartial, above petty regional politics.

5.7 The Emperor decides which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.


6. Armies and Battles

Rules 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 have been removed.

6.4 For field armies of seven or more units (including the general), the Chancellor must appoint an “army commander”. The army commander must be a “knight”. Army commanders are appointed for the duration of the Imperial Diet session (10 turn intervals). The post is expected to be rotating. Army commanders can decide what to do with prisoners after battle. They can be dismissed by Chancellors, but must be informed of this.

6.5 Avatars who take part in battles may be promoted to “knights” by the army commander. Typically, this will involve the avatar’s bodyguard fighting honourably in a battle. The Emperor, Prince and four Dukes begin the game knighted.

6.6 The title of Field Marshall shall be given to the commanders of the Household Armies for the duration of their command.
Charter Amendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed.

Charter Amendment 5.1: Each Duchy shall have a Household Army with which to defend its territories. The Household Army will be governed by the following clauses:

1) The Household Army may not be removed from the House’s provinces without the permission of the Duke.
2) The Duke will determine where the Household Army is to be garrisoned. This location can be changed at any time, so long as the Duke informs the Chancellor of the move. The Chancellor will not remove the Household Army from the garrison without the Duke’s permission, except as required to fulfill Clause 4.
3) The Duke will determine who commands the Household Army.
4) At the beginning of each Diet session the Duke may assign general orders to the Household Army, which are to be carried out by the Chancellor. Between Diet sessions, any additional orders submitted by Dukes are to be implemented only at the Chancellor's discretion. The Duke may select one of the following Orders: (1) attack any rebel force in House territory, (2) attack any hostile force in House territory, including other factions, (3) attack any foreign or rebel army in House territory, including neutral (but not allied or crusading) factions, (4) temporary assignment to another House, (5) assignment to offensive duties. If Order (4) is chosen, the Duke may determine the time limit of the temporary assignment and the commanding general, but all other decisions are made by the Duke of the receiving house. When the time limit expires, the Household Army must be immediately returned to House lands, no matter what other circumstances occur, unless the Duke agrees otherwise. If Order (5) is chosen, the Duke may specify an enemy settlement or army as the objective and the commanding general. The settlement or army must be in a province that borders the House and the Reich must already be at war with the target. All other decisions are made by the Chancellor. The Duke may recall the Household Army from offensive duties at any time and for any reason.
5) The Household Army will consist of a minimum of 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. The Household Army will ideally consist of 4 infantry regiments, 3 ranged regiments, and 2 cavalry regiments. For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments. All regiments must be professional soldiers, not militia.
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
7) The Chancellor will attempt to maintain the Household Armies at full strength, with the highest quality regiments available.
8) In emergencies, the Chancellor may detach any units in excess of the minimum strength level for use elsewhere. The Chancellor may not reduce a Household Army below the minimum strength level without the permission of the Duke.
9) If the Imperial Treasury cannot support all Household Armies at minimum strength, the Chancellor must consult with the Dukes and receive their permission to reduce the Household Armies in such a way as to eliminate the deficit.
10) The Imperial Diet may temporarily remove any or all of these rules by a simple majority vote. The temporary period will last no longer than 10 turns.

Charter Amendment 12.6: (1) Each House will have TWO standing Household Armies. They will operate according to CA5.1 in all respects, but have separate commanders appointed by the Duke.
(2) Outremer will have two standing armies. They will operate in accordance with CA9.1, but have separate commanders appointed by the King.
(3) The Kaiser and Prinz will each command standing Imperial armies, of the guideline size given in CA5.1. The Kaiser and Prinz can each give orders for their army during full Diet sessions. They are expected to personally command their own armies but can nominate a replacement commander at any time if they are too busy attending to civil matters. The Chancellor and the Kaiser/Prinz are expected to liase closely over the use of the deployment of the Kaiser/Prinz's army.


7. Crusades and missions.

7.1 The Chancellor must endeavour to follow missions from the Pope and Council of Nobles, unless exempted by the Diet. Missions from guilds and foreign powers are optional.

7.2 Crusades must be authorised by the Diet, unless announced by another faction.

7.3 When a crusade is called, the Chancellor must ask all generals if they wish to join. He must include at least three volunteers who reply within 48 hours. If there are more than three, he must pick the three most pious. However, he can decline a volunteer if that would usurp his pick of army commander. If the AI calls a crusade, the Chancellor can choose not to follow it, even if generals wish to join - but he must still notify them immediately of the call and get their view on whether they would like to join (were he to follow the call).

Charter Amendment 9.1:

The Charter of the Kingdom of Outremer

1. The Kingdom of Outremer will consist of Antioch, Acre, Adana, Aleppo, Edessa and Damascus.

2. The Kingdom of Outremer is an integral part of the Reich. It is not a fifth House.

3. The function of the Kingdom is defensive: to safeguard Jerusalem and protect the gateway to Christendom

4. The Kingdom will be overseen by a King of Outremer, who will be appointed by the Emperor at each full Diet session. The King will temporarily renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his appointment (e.g. if Duke, must appoint a Steward). The King of Outremer may propose up to 3 personal Edicts during each Diet session, but 2 must specifically deal with Outremer affairs. (Stricken portion overridden by Kaiser due to conflict with CA11.3.

5. The King will command a Household Army, both acting according to Charter Amendment 5.2 (with the King assuming the role of “Duke”). He may delegate the day to day command of the Army (assign other generals to lead it in battle). However, contrary to CA5.1, to be in accordance with article (1), the Army may not be used to permanently conquer neighbouring provinces (recapturing Christian settlements taken by non-Christians and returning them to their original owners would be allowed).

6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The Dukes and the Emperor will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count which are allocated to their control.

7. Both the King and Crusading Counts must be physically located outside Europe for the duration of their appointments.

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia. Antioch will be the capital of Outremer and an Imperial province governed by the King of Outremer. Edessa will also be an Imperial province, governed by a Count chosen by the King of Outremer. The Crusading Count for a settlement must come from the appropriate House. They will gain +1 influence, but only if they are not already a Count in their Duchy, and only for the Diet session that marks their appointment. The cap of 6 influence for all but the Emperor remains.

Charter Amendment 11.3: The King of Outremer is allowed to propose three Edicts (or Charter Amendments) per Diet Session. Prior to being tabled in the Diet, these must be seconded by two Crusader Counts in the Council of Crusaders.

Charter Amendment 11.6: The position of King of Outremer is appointed by the emperor. This appointment lasts for the duration of the emperors reign or the Kings lifetime, whichever is shorter. The King of Outremer is permitted to resign, if the emperor is willing to accept the resignation, upon which a new King is appointed by the emperor. If the King of Outremer is deemed incapable of the assignment, he may be impeached by the emperor and 2 Dukes.

8. Historical armies

Only historical armies can fight battles (ahistorical stacks can be used for transport).

No more than half an army can be mercenary. Crusader mercenaries (crusader sergeants, crusader knights, pilgrims, fanatics) can count as natives.

Revised maxima for each unit type by number of units in stack

3^Type|1-5|6-10|11-15|16+
7^Generals|2|2|2|2
7^Knights|2|4|6|8
7^Cavalry|2|4|6|8
7^Missile inf|2|3|4|6
7^Elite inf|2|3|4|6
7^Other foot|Any|Any|Any|Any
7^Artillery|1|2|3|4


Crusades are exempt from restrictions on the number of generals.

Unit type definitions:
- Knights: Dismtd Feudal knights; Dismtd Imperial knights; Dismtd Gothic knights; Mailed knights; Feudal knights; Imperial knights; Teutonic knights; General’s bodyguard; Gothic knights; plus any mercenary knights or equivalent heavy cavalry.
- Cavalry: Any mounted knights plus non-knightly cavalry (Mounted crossbowmen ; Reiters; Merchant cavalry; Mounted sergeants, Turcomans etc)
-Foot missiles: Peasant archers; Peasant crossbowmen; Crossbow militia; Pavisse crossbowmen; Arquebusiers; Handgunners etc
-Elite infantry: Zweihander; Forlorn Hope; Landsknechts; dismounted knights and equivalent mercs - e.g. Galllowglass
-Other foot: Peasants; Town militia; Halberd militia; Spear militia; Sergeant spearmen; Armoured spearmen; Crusader sergeants; Pike militia

Here's the old german titles of nobility and our equivalents:

Political
Elector = Kurfurst
Count = Graf
Duke = Herzog
Prince = Prinz
Emperor = Kaiser

Military
Knight = Ritter
Field Marshal = Generalfeldmarshal

RoadKill
10-24-2007, 00:31
I was wondering could I try to get Lorenz in the royal family so he can get married and have some kids.

TinCow
10-24-2007, 00:33
The only way to do that is to win battles and get him adopted. So... start leading forlorn charges into the Hungarian lines.

econ21
10-24-2007, 00:35
To try to clear the air, playing this game - particularly now, when there are elements of competition as well as cooperation - there are going to be IC tensions between characters. But it would be daft if we let IC conflicts become OOC ones between players. It would be like an actor playing a Montague getting mad at another for playing a Capulet. Also, we should try to refrain from criticising how other players are playing out their IC roles. That would be like one actor criticising another on set for doing a poor job. We are only human and we do have emotions, we do make critical judgements etc, but we should be careful how we express things in public as they can cause animosity and hurt.

On the issue of whether Dukes can ban people from their House threads, there are arguments on both sides of the issue. As with most things in this PBM, we are making the rules up as we go and as long as we approach this cooperatively, in a good spirit, that may be a virtue rather than a vice. On reflection, I’m inclined to say Dukes should have the power to exclude players from their House threads - it does seem fitting given the Kaiser’s comparable power in the Diet. Jan’s long letter to the Franconians would probably best fit in the Imperial Messenger Service thread, given that Ansehelm is refusing to give him a platform within Franconia. I’m not going to move it now - as the temporal ordering would be out of sync.

Without a Diet or Tavern, that does leave Jan without any place where he can conduct snappy back and forth exchanges with Peter etc. But, as I said, there are arguments on both sides of the issue. With the cataclysm, when we are emphasising our avatar’s physical location more and the communication problems in general, snappy back and forth may be something best reserved for face to face meetings. We can use the IMS for longer, more substantial contributions. (If you are going to circulate something across the Reich in a time of chaos, it had better be something substantial enough to be worth circulating.)

RoadKill
10-24-2007, 00:38
Just to add onto Econ, this is a game and only just a game no need to flame each other. Be happy and just play. :beam:

OverKnight
10-24-2007, 00:46
Has anyone been able to download the save from the temp location?

I jump through a few hoops, and then I'm told the file can't be found.

I want to see if I can make some Byzzies bleed. :2thumbsup:

Ignoramus
10-24-2007, 01:03
No Flemish Pikemen, TinCow? Bah, how decadent has Flanders become. :laugh4:

Is there any way to get Wolfgang married? I want him to create a Hummel dynasty, but the chances of him getting a wife are almost zero.

gibsonsg91921
10-24-2007, 01:07
yeah and i wanna continue the kastiliens! i wanna son! siegfried is carrying us on at least with his daughters but i want a son to boss around.

FactionHeir
10-24-2007, 01:14
Psht, and I want to further Heinrich's legacy :grin2: shouldn't just all depend on Elberhard alone eh?

I think this does highlight that a lot of us need a wife. Possibly IRL too :laugh4:

GeneralHankerchief
10-24-2007, 01:17
No Flemish Pikemen, TinCow? Bah, how decadent has Flanders become.

Nah, they all went to Dijon when it rebelled. At least, I think so.

@FH: Well, there have been some marriages recently, just not into important families. Incidentally, Dietrich looks forward to producing five or six little von Dassels in the coming years. :evil:

TinCow
10-24-2007, 01:31
No Flemish Pikemen, TinCow? Bah, how decadent has Flanders become. :laugh4:

I tried to specifically point out that Bruges loved you and would be receptive to aiding you again in the future. There are various things that you could try within the borders of the provinces that could result in Flemish Pikemen recruits.

I have tried to show people that they will receive rewards both for being 'good' (treating people nicely and being honorable - see Wolfgang and Fredericus Erlach this turn) and being 'evil' (exploiting people and being a general jerk - see Fritz pretty much all the time). I am trying to keep good and evil rewards natural and in context without biasing one over the other.

One of my personal pet peeves with RPGs is their tendency to give more of a reward for being good than being evil. I think it should actually be the other way around. The reward for being good should simply be knowing that you have helped someone. People shouldn't be handing out powerful magic items that have been family heirlooms for generations for a simple FedEx quest (which they seem to do all the time). The evil method should be the only way to obtain a lot of this highly valuable loot. I'm trying to keep it more balanced than that in KOTR, but still make both avenues of RPing a viable and profitable method.

RoadKill
10-24-2007, 01:32
So If I smash Lorenz into enemies and win I get a higher percent of being adopted or is it random that I will get adopted. And also pleasssee adoppptt mmeeee.

gibsonsg91921
10-24-2007, 01:44
I think this does highlight that a lot of us need a wife. Possibly IRL too :laugh4:

well i just asked my sweetie out friday at the football game. shouldve done it right after homecoming, but i was unsure at the time. im only 16, but thats the first step! ofc she said yes, ud understand if u knew how devilishly handsome i am. kinda like peter von kastilien - hes a swinger, thats why hes unmarried.

Ignoramus
10-24-2007, 01:51
GH: Dijon is full os Swiss Pikemen, hence Warluster's wise decision not to assault. Can you imagine fighting those guys in narrow streets?

TC: That's ok, I'm sure Wolfgang will have plenty of time to revist the richest province in nortern Europe.

GH and TC, I have some IC PM's to send to you.

TinCow
10-24-2007, 02:58
FYI, to download from rapidshare:
1) Click the button that says "Free"
2) Wait until the timer counts down to 0, at which point the screen will change to show a series of letters and numbers. Enter them in the blank text box and click the download link next to the box.
3) Enjoy.

Apologies for the poor system, feel free to upload to better systems if you know of them. I will switch the link to the Org Uploader as soon as it is fixed.

OverKnight
10-24-2007, 04:27
FYI, to download from rapidshare:
1) Click the button that says "Free"
2) Wait until the timer counts down to 0, at which point the screen will change to show a series of letters and numbers. Enter them in the blank text box and click the download link next to the box.
3) Enjoy.


I did all that.

The dialog box for downloading came up, and then another telling me that the file wasn't found.

No worries, I'll try again after work and see if it's human error. I hope the uploader won't be on the fritz that long though.

Tamur
10-24-2007, 04:49
I hope the uploader won't be on the fritz that long though.

Matthias, why are you dragging me into this?

You could all see that coming a mile off, I know, just had to say it. And...


im only 16, but thats the first step!

congrats! ah to be young again...

Privateerkev
10-24-2007, 05:06
Speaking of avatar marriages, Jan and Alfgarda are working hard to produce the next generation of stuck-up, self-righteous, uptight, crusaders. :yes:

On that note, Jan just got a son. :2thumbsup:

OverKnight
10-24-2007, 05:17
@Tamur: :no: Why? Bad Puns are the Devil's handiwork.

@PK: Is a severed head an appropriate gift for a Baby Shower? Considering I never get any money out of Aleppo, Matthias can't afford anything better. :laugh4:

Privateerkev
10-24-2007, 05:26
OK: Given that Jan has sort of gotten used to Matthias's rather warped and macabre sense of humor, he probably wouldn't be very surprised.

Considering that Matthias already gave the intact one to Nikeforos, I can only assume you mean the trampled one. Though after a couple years, I imagine it is rather ripe at the moment. Unless you are proposing that Matthias go out, smash an army, and bring back a fresh head for Jan's newborn son.

If you are, I assure you that Jan would be touched by the thought, and then when Matthias turns around, he would chuck the head in the trash. :laugh4:

Stuperman
10-24-2007, 05:39
hmp, well be careful what you wish for, In my expierence a smaller house is easier to manage, less prone to internal strife.

OverKnight
10-24-2007, 08:25
Interesting observation Stuperman, the two larger houses seem to be more fractious, at the moment at least. Though Austria does have a dissenting voice and there are only two Bavarians actually in Bavaria, one of which is stuck on an island, which cuts down on mutiny. Outremer is only three people, but too many Chiefs not enough Indians as it has a Kaiser, King and one measly Count. Matthias technically could stir the pot, but, one, he'd be crushed as there's no place to run to or get help from, and, two, even if he managed to beat the Killer Ks, the Byzzies would swarm in and smoosh him despite whatever fancy title he'd grant himself. Not that I've ever thought of breaking the Great Chain of Being and calling myself the Immortal Grand Potentate of the East and Defender of the Holy Sepulchre. :beam:

Hey, you could start the independent Republuic of Corsica if you wanted. :2thumbsup:

On a previous note, I was able to download the save here at work which I then attached to an e-mail I sent myself. So much for Hospital IT, I'll have to see if my work computer can handle M2. :evilgrin:

TinCow
10-24-2007, 12:16
I have uploaded the save via the temporary system that Tosa has set up. The new link is at the top of the Turn 3 cataclysm post.

AussieGiant
10-24-2007, 20:59
Hi All,

I'm also out from Friday the 26th until Monday the 29th at about 14:00 Swiss time GMT +1.

I'm off to the New York Giants versus the Miami Dolphin's at Wembley Stadium in London...90000+ people...holleey hell!!

I'll have more orders in before the deadline and I'd really like to attack this turn so hopefully we can wait for my battle until Monday early afternoon.

I'll update the Duty roster.

Plus...it's a bit like a night club in here...at around 8pm...

Tamur
10-24-2007, 21:15
One thing I must say, after looking at the orders... that is an absolute mountain of work you're doing TC, thanks for taking the huge amount of time amongst all else going on there.


I'm off to the New York Giants versus the Miami Dolphin's at Wembley Stadium in London...90000+ people...

I heard they had nearly a million people try to get tickets. You'll have to give us a post-match report.

AussieGiant
10-24-2007, 21:21
I heard they had nearly a million people try to get tickets. You'll have to give us a post-match report.

Sure will. It's bound to be a crazy time over there.

And again. TC thanks a lot.

When TC say's 7pm EST its the east coast of the US right?

I think I asked that before but I've forgotten.

TinCow
10-24-2007, 21:25
I'm also out from Friday the 26th until Monday the 29th at about 14:00 Swiss time GMT +1.

I'll have more orders in before the deadline and I'd really like to attack this turn so hopefully we can wait for my battle until Monday early afternoon.

If you are going to attack the Venetians, you can start fighting the battles right now. Just take the kotr1324.sav save and upload the results as normal.


When TC say's 7pm EST its the east coast of the US right?

Correct. GMT -5.

Northnovas
10-24-2007, 21:28
Go give them hell AG you have been sitting quietly there too long!!!!

econ21
10-25-2007, 00:10
Mini-Econ will probably fight his sally tomorrow if that is ok with TinCow. Likewise, Overknight could probably fight his battles when he chooses as the other Outremer orders have already been given. If people call the save when the time comes, as usual, it should go smoothly. (These battles are going to be tense, so we don't want two players fighting their battles from the same save and one having to refight.)

TinCow
10-25-2007, 00:20
That's fine with me. I will wait until tomorrow before posting any formal battle lists, since I'm still missing a lot of orders. However, anyone who knows they are going to fight a battle and doesn't need any game editing done before the fight can take the save whenever they want and get stuck into it. Just make sure you post that you are taking the save and then upload it again promptly.

Also, I would greatly appreciate it if all those inside Swabia would get their orders in promptly. There are a few potential MP battles out there and we need to figure out how to run them if they are going to occur. Obviously, if you have already sent them to me this does not apply to you.

OverKnight
10-25-2007, 03:53
Unless anyone else has plans, I'll be fighting my battles sometime around 1000 EDT (1400 GMT). There's some flexibility there, I'll have some off time Thursday and Friday, so don't worry if you need to take the save yourself.

Enjoy the game AG, I wish America was exporting a better product than the Dolphins, they're truly wretched this year, but I guess they could still defeat some of the old NFL Europe teams. The Giants, at least, are a decent team.

Northnovas
10-25-2007, 04:05
It doesn't matter who the other team is if you are watching your favourite team play you want a victory. This will ensure a NY win.

AussieGiant
10-25-2007, 08:29
Yeah I think I need to be clear here....

I've been a Giant's fan since 1989.

If it's 45-0 then that's just dandy for me :laugh4:

It wont be...and it is a trap game for the G-men but hopefully they pound 'em.

As usual it looks like only Northnovas will get his choices into me before the deadline so I will get my orders out and then I'll fight my battle tonight also.

Basically I'm going to take a night action against the first stack and then hold just outside the Citadel as they throw themselves against me.

econ21
10-25-2007, 10:56
Mini Econ's taking the save.

Battle fought, new save:
http://www.mizus.com/files/pbm/kotr1324_1.zip

OverKnight
10-25-2007, 14:35
I have the save.

Edit: Battles fought, the new save.

http://www.mizus.com/files/pbm/kotr1324-2.zip

TinCow
10-25-2007, 17:42
We're only about 6 hours from the deadline for 1324 orders. So far I am still waiting on the following:

Athalwolf von Salza (Warluster) - No orders received.
Wolfgang Hümmel (Ignoramus) - No orders received
Dieter Bresch (Bob the Great) - No orders received
Arnold (AussieGiant) - Vague/incomplete orders received, more details required in regards to recruitment.

AussieGiant
10-25-2007, 19:32
Orders sent TC.

Buzzing the tower now.

Prepare for impact.

Translation...



...I'm taking the save.

Ok spanked the first stack.

Save is here

http://www.mizus.com/files/pbm/kotr1324-3.zip

Privateerkev
10-25-2007, 20:27
We're only about 6 hours from the deadline for 1324 orders. So far I am still waiting on the following:

Dieter Bresch (Bob the Great) - No orders received

He left a message in the old OOC thread.


I'm gonna be on holiday untill Thursday so if I miss the option picking just leave me in Magdeburg and anyone can fight the battles I won't have . Just updated the Active duty thread.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1722612&postcount=565

If you already know this, then please disregard this post. ^_^

TinCow
10-25-2007, 20:36
Hmph... this year's battle results have displeased me greatly. You won't like me when I'm angry. If you guys don't start taking some casualties, I'm going to ban night attacks.

Northnovas
10-25-2007, 20:40
If you prevent double stacks only then can night attacks be banned. ;)

AussieGiant
10-25-2007, 20:42
Hmph... this year's battle results have displeased me greatly. You won't like me when I'm angry. If you guys don't start taking some casualties, I'm going to ban night attacks.

LMAO @ TC...mate, you're not giving me any luv are ya fella :beam:

The two stacks behind are chockers with DFK and those bastards on horses as well.

I'm going to get pounded in their turn. Which I hope we can do on Monday afternoon at the earliest...if those are auto calc'd then I will lose.

Privateerkev
10-25-2007, 20:43
Hmph... this year's battle results have displeased me greatly. You won't like me when I'm angry. If you guys don't start taking some casualties, I'm going to ban night attacks.

Or you can demand that prisoners be released. Jan has definitely made things in Outremer more interesting with all the little half-stacks of paroled prisoners wandering around. ^_^

Northnovas
10-25-2007, 20:46
AG you will be in no condition on Monday afternoon to do anything, with the exception of breathing of course.

TinCow
10-25-2007, 20:53
You guys already have an advantage because there are very, very few generals I can throw at you. Most of the enemy generals have titles ("the Flippant") which means I cannot move them or give them more units (I have to know their last name to use the console commands). Thus, for the most part I can only throw Captain-led stacks at you, which is a huge disadvantage for the AI, especially since most of you have good battle traits out the wazoo. I was originally planning for full-stack armies to be almost impossible for you to assemble during the cataclysm, but my economics system (and generosity with free units in the first couple turns) has totally reversed that.

I WILL push you guys back more, whether you like it or not. If I can't do it fairly, then I will cheat. :laugh4: It's not my fault the campaign map AI is idiotic. I demanded 'carte blanche' on game manipulation/rules from you all before I agreed to do the cataclysm for this very reason. You're all too damn good. Thus, I am going to start ramping up the difficulty. Don't worry, people who are already struggling will not be pressed harder. It will be those of you who are winning too easily who will feel my wrath... :whip:

AussieGiant
10-25-2007, 20:53
AG you will be in no condition on Monday afternoon to do anything, with the exception of breathing of course.

LOL!!

I tell ya...I'll drag may ass to the PC, knock those two stacks back, half blind, still drunk and barffing all over my PC.

Long live the....:drunk:

AussieGiant
10-25-2007, 20:55
You guys already have an advantage because there are very, very few generals I can throw at you. Most of the enemy generals have titles ("the Flippant") which means I cannot move them or give them more units (I have to know their last name to use the console commands). Thus, for the most part I can only throw Captain-led stacks at you, which is a huge disadvantage for the AI, especially since most of you have good battle traits out the wazoo. I was originally planning for full-stack armies to be almost impossible for you to assemble during the cataclysm, but my economics system (and generosity with free units in the first couple turns) has totally reversed that.

I WILL push you guys back more, whether you like it or not. If I can't do it fairly, then I will cheat. :laugh4: It's not my fault the campaign map AI is idiotic. I demanded 'carte blanche' on game manipulation/rules from you all before I agreed to do the cataclysm for this very reason. You're all too damn good. Thus, I am going to start ramping up the difficulty. Don't worry, people who are already struggling will not be pressed harder. It will be those of you who are winning too easily who will feel my wrath... :whip:


Excellent...

some hand me some pistols and a cream and jam scone...

where going hunting men.

StoneCold
10-25-2007, 21:06
AG, why aren't you continuing with your battles? From the looks of the last battle you could easily whipped the other 2 stacks with what you have now anyway... :P

TC, can't you generate recruitable generals for the AI using console command?

TinCow
10-25-2007, 21:15
TC, can't you generate recruitable generals for the AI using console command?

Not that I am aware of. If you know how to create generals, please let me know. I can't even really create 'new' armies. All I can do is add units to existing armies or cities. To create new stacks, I find a tiny stack somewhere, pump it full of big units then teleport it where I want it to be. I cannot simply create a new unit in the middle of nowhere, because it has to have an existing stack or city to go into. The console command system is extremely limited. If only "control FACTION" still worked...

Northnovas
10-25-2007, 21:31
TC

Have you seen these post? I don't know if they will resolve the issue.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93797

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93539

FactionHeir
10-25-2007, 21:46
Hotseat needs to be enabled before creating the game, so that option is out.

As for creating generals, you can create BGs but not characters. The AI usually gets a MOTH every turn though if they got several provinces.

As for moving/creating units into generals with titles, it still works using just their firstname, if there is no other character with that firstname and the game has saved the character (don't ask me when it does - its fairly random actually).

Except for Swabia, all other duchies have already fought the AI. I don't even want to think of those French Lancer/Gendarme/Scots guard stacks that stand outside my door.

To make life more challenging for the Human player though, you need to create certain types of stacks the AI can handle. Infantry heavy stacks are easily overrun by players unless they have no cavalry.
I would recommend something along the lines of:
5 heavy late cav
3 HA or Light heavy hitting cav
5 Heavy infantry
2 Spear formations
3 Long range missile regiments (AP archers or late Xbows)
2 Very long range artillery (treb, cannon, culverin, basilisk, serpentine)

AussieGiant
10-25-2007, 22:19
Hotseat needs to be enabled before creating the game, so that option is out.

As for creating generals, you can create BGs but not characters. The AI usually gets a MOTH every turn though if they got several provinces.

As for moving/creating units into generals with titles, it still works using just their firstname, if there is no other character with that firstname and the game has saved the character (don't ask me when it does - its fairly random actually).

Except for Swabia, all other duchies have already fought the AI. I don't even want to think of those French Lancer/Gendarme/Scots guard stacks that stand outside my door.

To make life more challenging for the Human player though, you need to create certain types of stacks the AI can handle. Infantry heavy stacks are easily overrun by players unless they have no cavalry.
I would recommend something along the lines of:
5 heavy late cav
3 HA or Light heavy hitting cav
5 Heavy infantry
2 Spear formations
3 Long range missile regiments (AP archers or late Xbows)
2 Very long range artillery (treb, cannon, culverin, basilisk, serpentine)

Just great...what is this!!??

Create your own avatar killing stack :laugh4:

TinCow
10-25-2007, 22:40
As for moving/creating units into generals with titles, it still works using just their firstname, if there is no other character with that firstname and the game has saved the character (don't ask me when it does - its fairly random actually).

I've tried that with the English King (Davy) and it didn't work. I do not see another general with that name on the map. One of the annoying things about this is that the good AI generals ALWAYS have titles. Thus, the best enemy commanders are the ones I am pretty much excluded from using.

FactionHeir
10-25-2007, 22:44
Yeah, its annoying as it applies to agents who share generals' names too.
With Royalty, you might try finding one of their princesses unless they already got the snob title from the cash boost. Usually their lastname applies to either heir or king unless they got a high turnover rate.

econ21
10-26-2007, 00:05
I was originally planning for full-stack armies to be almost impossible for you to assemble during the cataclysm, but my economics system (and generosity with free units in the first couple turns) has totally reversed that.

You needn't be bound by your economics system. Restricting our army sizes seems a more elegant solution than throwing dozens of elite full stacks at us.

In the short term, you could have a moratorium on income next turn. You could exempt one or two players with special needs if you want.

If you want a longer term solution, you could double the points cost of each unit type.

And, if you want to be evil, you could reintroduce desertion for a while. I rolled for each unit - it disbanded on a "1"; a "1" or "2" for militia. Three turns of such desertion and the full stacks will be almost halved.

TinCow
10-26-2007, 02:24
Ah, don't worry about it. I've come up with a new devious scheme.

http://www.vegards007.com/Spectre/Ernst%20Stavro%20Blofeld%201.jpg

Also, I'm going to give Warluster, Ignoramus, and Bob the Great some more time for their choices. Normally I would just push forward, but Warluster and Ignoramus are in a pretty significant spot for Swabia. I don't want to skip it if we don't have to. The turn can't advance until Monday anyway, since I'm out of town again from Friday to Sunday. Haste is still very much encouraged though, and I won't wait forever.

FactionHeir
10-26-2007, 08:58
So when can I fight my battle? :yes:

OverKnight
10-26-2007, 11:53
On the problem of last names, I digged through some old saves and managed to track down Nikeforos the Mean's last name. In 1260, he was a young pup near Thessalonica and he was called Nikeforos Argyrus. The character portraits and relative age match up.

If you have other characters you want me to track down, let me know.

Ferret
10-26-2007, 12:29
What is going to happen to Ansehelm's 11 wealth then? And all of his soldiers? It would seem rather weird for it all to just disappear.

Tamur
10-26-2007, 13:28
I think the latest idea I heard was for him to go out in a blaze of glory against the Poles or some such. Agreed, it would be a blow to lose all the men, but if TinCow wishes to make things difficult, it's perfect. That would certainly put Franconia in a serious predicament.

econ21
10-26-2007, 13:54
What is going to happen to Ansehelm's 11 wealth then? And all of his soldiers? It would seem rather weird for it all to just disappear.

I'll leave it up to TinCow to decide, but given his recent coments about making the game harders, Tamur has a point.

Ferret
10-26-2007, 14:23
There are enough Danes wandering around my castle as it is :sweatdrop: .

TinCow
10-26-2007, 15:08
Ok, all orders have now been received and there are two battles left to be fought:

Hans (FactionHeir):
You are ready to assault rebel-held Metz. Peter von Kastilien has marched to aid you in your assault. His army stands ready to assist in the battle, if you need it. It is time to reunite the split halves of Swabia. (Do NOT get Peter killed.)


Fredericus Erlach (Stuperman):
You have trained your peasant volunteers and recruited two new cavalry regiments. The wealth from Duke Steffen will not reach you until the end of the year, so you do not have access to the planned recruits from that source. Your army now stands ready to attack the Sicilian army on the southern shores. March out and destroy them.

http://www.mizus.com/files/pbm/kotr1324-5.zip

I will complete all other moves after I get home on Sunday. Expect the next turn to begin late on Monday.

Privateerkev
10-26-2007, 15:54
Do NOT get Peter killed.

I would assume that OOC, that doesn't need to be said. I don't think anyone here "tries" to get other avatars killed in battle.

That being said, is TC asking for some sort of extraordinary measures to ensure Peter's survival? Like should FH take manual control of the reinforcements? Or should FH reload the battle if Peter accidentally dies by flaming catapult? (I'm not advocating reloading, just asking how far are we willing to go to keep Peter alive?)

I guess I am confused by the statement because we usually just assume that other players will treat our avatars with tender loving care. I have had at least 5 other players (including FH) fight with Jan on the battlefield and they have always kept him alive. He might lose all of his bodyguards (and he has at least 3 times) but he's still alive. ^_^

Northnovas
10-26-2007, 16:14
I would assume that OOC, that doesn't need to be said. I don't think anyone here "tries" to get other avatars killed in battle.

That being said, is TC asking for some sort of extraordinary measures to ensure Peter's survival? Like should FH take manual control of the reinforcements? Or should FH reload the battle if Peter accidentally dies by flaming catapult? (I'm not advocating reloading, just asking how far are we willing to go to keep Peter alive?)

I guess I am confused by the statement because we usually just assume that other players will treat our avatars with tender loving care. I have had at least 5 other players (including FH) fight with Jan on the battlefield and they have always kept him alive. He might lose all of his bodyguards (and he has at least 3 times) but he's still alive. ^_^
I think one's history can be an indicator to one's future behavour is what TC was humoursly trying to get across.
This is sad trying to respond in the forum with a wirless handheld.

Privateerkev
10-26-2007, 16:22
Ah, I guess I was confused as to whether the GM messages to us were IC or OOC. Since the GM is not an avatar, I was assuming anything from him is OOC.

If I stumbled across TC's attempt to add humor and levity to the board, I apologize. :bow:

TinCow
10-26-2007, 16:22
I would assume that OOC, that doesn't need to be said. I don't think anyone here "tries" to get other avatars killed in battle.

That being said, is TC asking for some sort of extraordinary measures to ensure Peter's survival? Like should FH take manual control of the reinforcements? Or should FH reload the battle if Peter accidentally dies by flaming catapult? (I'm not advocating reloading, just asking how far are we willing to go to keep Peter alive?)

I guess I am confused by the statement because we usually just assume that other players will treat our avatars with tender loving care. I have had at least 5 other players (including FH) fight with Jan on the battlefield and they have always kept him alive. He might lose all of his bodyguards (and he has at least 3 times) but he's still alive. ^_^

It means "Do not get Peter killed." Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one.

Privateerkev
10-26-2007, 16:25
It means "Do not get Peter killed." Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one.

I assumed we always tried to not get other avatars killed.

As for simple explanations, your right but my mind is quite fuzzy from all of the post-colonial theory I've had to be reading. With what I read, simple is not always right. My mind is stuck in the "read too deeply into everything" gear. ^_^

Tamur
10-26-2007, 17:20
Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one.

I tend to agree.

Privateerkev
10-26-2007, 17:32
Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one.

Yes, and now if you two can only tell my thesis advisors...
:wall:

^_^

Stuperman
10-26-2007, 17:36
I'll be at least 12, if not 24 hours before I can fight my battle.

FactionHeir
10-26-2007, 21:50
Fighting now (or in 10 mins)

Done.

Passing info on to TC. Battle report to follow.

http://www.mizus.com/files/pbm/kotr1324-6.zip

gibsonsg91921
10-26-2007, 22:25
dont get me killed! i know u dont trust me but u really should! keep him away from the fighting, u could say im "bravely bearing the standard for the men" lol

FactionHeir
10-26-2007, 22:36
Too late, Peter died.
Peter did a lot of fighting with Hans in the town square.

I'm not joking!

Well, actually I am about the dying part :tongue2:

gibsonsg91921
10-26-2007, 22:53
lol n00b. i knew he was safe with u, FH. wink wink

edit: well, cant argue with those results. lol. things are just golden for peter and his bodyguard... (BOO! bad pun!)

Stuperman
10-27-2007, 05:45
I gots da save.

Stuperman
10-27-2007, 06:31
http://www.mizus.com/files/pbm/kotr1324-7.zip

http://img34.picoodle.com/img/img34/6/10/27/t_submitm_565595c.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/27/f_submitm_565595c.jpg&srv=img34)


The secret to my success:

http://img28.picoodle.com/img/img28/6/10/27/t_archerstakem_b4288c9.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/6/10/27/f_archerstakem_b4288c9.jpg&srv=img28)

but seriously, On the beaches, you have such a height advantage, the archers can pound on them for a while.

OverKnight
10-27-2007, 10:22
My battle report for my last two fights is up:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1726326&postcount=168

Stuperman, you're going all Churchill on us.

I fear the retribution TC will visit on us. May God deliver us from the fury of the gamemaster. :laugh4:

Edit: Hey GH, good story, but shouldn't those kids be speaking German? And it shoudn't be New Jersey, it should be New Swabia or something.

Stuperman
10-27-2007, 16:01
well, we have been fighting them on the beaches....

gibsonsg91921
10-27-2007, 16:16
man, in my ap euro class we dont have homework.

GeneralHankerchief
10-27-2007, 18:02
OK, that depends on how well we bounce back after the cataclysm and whether or not we hit that place in Florida when the New World comes.

Stuperman
10-27-2007, 18:21
well, it could have been a loot better too, the unit of feudal knights that took most of the casualties was ordered after the catapults, but it kept turning away and got hit 2 or 3 times. I eventually had to run them through the cataputls to engage them.

OverKnight
10-27-2007, 20:09
OK, that depends on how well we bounce back after the cataclysm and whether or not we hit that place in Florida when the New World comes.

Good point, perhaps New Jersey is our long time ally England's sole niche in the new world. Or maybe we were stopped and New York is New Nicaea.

Either way, your version of Kingdoms sounds interesting. Too bad Otto bought it, I guess his special ability of "Papal Reconciliation" is not much use in battle. :laugh4:

RoadKill
10-28-2007, 21:41
Is it me or has this been really inactive lately.

Tamur
10-28-2007, 21:52
We're taking things slower through the cataclysm. It's a huge amount of work for the GMs per-turn, and they actually have real lives which also need some attention. Not too surprising that the postings have slowed down.

gibsonsg91921
10-28-2007, 22:30
so am i officially Duke now? nice

GeneralHankerchief
10-28-2007, 23:14
Ansehelm hasn't officially bought it yet, so I don't think so. You'll probably be able to legally boss people around come 1326.

Privateerkev
10-28-2007, 23:17
so am i officially Duke now? nice

Econ said in the last post of the last OOC thread that Peter would be Steward until the Ansehelm avatar is killed. As Steward, Peter would have all of the Ducal powers except naming an heir. But since I suspect TC will be killing Ansehelm off soon, that is pretty moot.

So yeah, it looks like Peter will be a Duke/Prince soon. I don't think we have had one of those since Henry. :book:

*edit*
sorry, GH typed up his much more succinct answer while I was typing this post

gibsonsg91921
10-28-2007, 23:37
alright, thats cool. but if u remember, i challenged myself to not use titles in front of my name ever. so ill be duke and prince but i wont call myself that. u guys can call me it, but ill always just refer to myself as peter von kastilien

GeneralHankerchief
10-28-2007, 23:39
Aye-aye, comrade. :wink:

Privateerkev
10-28-2007, 23:43
If gibson wants, I can just have Jan call him "Lord-God-Emperor" like in Dune.

Same with Dassel if he wins "Duke-Fest" 1326. ^_^

gibsonsg91921
10-28-2007, 23:46
u can call me +10 Ultra Jesus for all I care, lol

Privateerkev
10-28-2007, 23:52
u can call me +10 Ultra Jesus for all I care, lol

Be careful what you wish for +10 Ultra Jesus. ;)

At least it would be safe to assume that the Peter-the-Pretender title will probably be retired.

probably... ^_^

I just always like the way that title rolled off the tongue.

Ferret
10-28-2007, 23:53
Econ said in the last post of the last OOC thread that Peter would be Steward until the Ansehelm avatar is killed. As Steward, Peter would have all of the Ducal powers except naming an heir. But since I suspect TC will be killing Ansehelm off soon, that is pretty moot.

So yeah, it looks like Peter will be a Duke/Prince soon. I don't think we have had one of those since Henry. :book:

soooooo any ideas who to name heir Peter? :eyebrows:

Dieter is liking this strong talk from the new Duke btw :beam: .

gibsonsg91921
10-28-2007, 23:54
i should be a pharaoh. build me a pyramid! king bob's pyramid! so shall it be written, so shall it be done!

recess anyone? lol

edit: idk who ill name as heir - fritz is probably going to be the lucky steward but since hes older than me he probably wont be the permanent heir. depends on who lapdogs me most i guess... lol

Privateerkev
10-28-2007, 23:58
Ah the joy of having the oldest avatar in the House. To a certain extent, Jan can just sit back and let the others battle it out over who will be Peter's preferred lapdog, er I mean Count. :D

He could try to be the kingmaker though. Almost as much fun with a whole lot less work or responsibility. ^_^

Ferret
10-28-2007, 23:59
whatever you say your holiness

*bows down to kiss feet and sends off slaves to build a pyramid*

MWAHAHAHAHAHA!

TinCow
10-29-2007, 00:05
Is it me or has this been really inactive lately.

It has been slow because I have been out of town for the last two weekends and too busy to work on the game during those times. I just got back home an hour ago and will get to work on the save tonight. The next turn will begin tomorrow evening.

That was my last trip until the end of November, so I expect the rest of the cataclysm to move ahead without any more delays. Apologies to all for the last two weeks and thank you for being patient.

gibsonsg91921
10-29-2007, 01:07
its cool dude, RL is, *gasp*, much more important than this game. dont apologize! ur so busy with this! we should be apologizing to u!

Cecil XIX
10-29-2007, 01:27
Speaking of Ansehelm, I'd rather not send him off to a convient death. We can just as easily have him abdicate completely, and he can spend the rest of his natural life in Frankfurt or somewhere.

Privateerkev
10-29-2007, 01:46
Speaking of Ansehelm, I'd rather not send him off to a convient death. We can just as easily have him abdicate completely, and he can spend the rest of his natural life in Frankfurt or somewhere.

I suspect that TC is planning on having him and his whole army destroyed to put Franconia in a more dire position. He has expressed disappointment lately with regards to how well we are all doing. ^_^

Stig
10-29-2007, 10:30
One last thing before I bugger off. And don't delete this Econ, I will remember that I posted here:


OOC: From the PM conversations Jan has been having with Peter, I assume that Jan is allowed to speak in here again. If I am mistaken, just let me know and I will delete the contents of this post and/or ask Econ to delete it.
Is it not strange that PK now ask if he can post, while after I told him (nicely at first) he couldn't, he kept on posting?

From his post lately I'd say:
Stig's out of the PBM
Mission accomplished


I'm right, sad really, some people

econ21
10-29-2007, 12:18
Is it not strange that PK now ask if he can post, while after I told him (nicely at first) he couldn't, he kept on posting?

He asks now because now I made a ruling that Dukes can ban people posting in the House threads:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1724132&postcount=4

The rules can't cover all contingencies, so it would be helpful if players show restraint and good will when we encounter new situations like that one.

Privateerkev
10-29-2007, 14:48
From his post lately I'd say:
Stig's out of the PBM
Mission accomplished


That was never what I wanted to happen. It was Econ's call and I did not know about it until it happened.

I am not responsible for how you react to things.

AussieGiant
10-29-2007, 17:12
Afternoon all,

I'm back from lovely London where the Giant's squeaked out a win against the Fin's in an afternoon deluge that only London could really do justice to.

I see there has been some movement at the station...but not much.

Privateerkev
10-29-2007, 17:14
I see there has been some movement at the station...but not much.

Glad you had a good time. ^_^

It seems as if everyone is holding their breath waiting for the next Cataclysm report. I'm curious to see what else TC has thrown at us. :yes:

Stuperman
10-30-2007, 03:11
PK, it seems he has thrown a lot at us.

Stuperman
10-30-2007, 04:20
taking a look at the save, I have to say TC you weren't messing around when you said this year would be worse.

OverKnight
10-30-2007, 04:30
Time to pray to +10 Ultra Jesus.

Edit: Wherever Jan is, I hope he brings back Prester John (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prester_John) with him, we could use the help.

AussieGiant
10-30-2007, 09:21
As I'm at work I can't see the save...I guess the situation just when to Defcon 2 or some such level :2thumbsup:

OverKnight
10-30-2007, 09:41
I'm stuck at work and haven't seen the save myself, I'm just going off other's reactions and TC's dire threats.

Can't wait to get home and see how screwed we really are. :2thumbsup:

AussieGiant
10-30-2007, 09:50
Yes that is going to be a treat.

I especially love this little gem...which seems a little out of place considering the options for other players LOL.

(B) Attack the Venetian armies besieging Ragusa. You cannot use a night attack to split them.
(C) You know you don’t need a third option… just pick B and try not to get yourself killed.

Translation:

Christ AG, get down there and kill em all...don't fudge it by using a night attack and....it should be touch and go given the troop quality, so try not to have Northnovas be a temporary Duke next turn... :whip:

...gee thanks TC :clown:

OverKnight
10-30-2007, 09:59
Yeah well Matthias has his old buddy Nik lined up across from him with "secret weapons" and, I assume, a massive army.

I'm guessing it's PanzerPhants :elephant:

Notice that "holding the bridge" isn't my safest option.

AussieGiant
10-30-2007, 11:05
yes that is very subtle of TC...I like it.

I believe we need to ban all communication between FactionHeir and TC...the combo is starting to sound leathal.

I'm sure a few avatar deaths will have the fangs pulled back in.

The question is...who will it be?

TinCow
10-30-2007, 12:19
Remember, I guarantee everyone's survival if they choose the safe option. I boosted the attacks in three specific areas: Outremer, Ajaccio, and Austria. Notice that those are all three places where the players have been spanking the AI. With the exception of Ragusa, none of the settlements in those areas are under siege, which means you have another full turn to prepare for the battle if you want to fight. Holding the walls against a siege assault is also far easier than a field battle, IMO. Outremer is in a tough spot, but part of that is due to Privateerkev, not me. I have given everyone left in Outremer an escape route via Elberhard's evacuation choice. The huge army in Acre is more than enough to help hold the bridge and the ford until the ships are completed.

While Ragusa is in a difficult situation, Arnold has a very strong army and he can easily use it as a base for the rest of the game if he retreats north instead of fighting. Just as I have been pumping the attack in areas that are not suffering as much as I would like them to, I will decrease the level of AI threat once I am happy with the level of territorial loss. I will not completely destroy any House. If the players find themselves really struggling, they will get bonuses to compensate and I will use other methods to reign in the AI.


I especially love this little gem...which seems a little out of place considering the options for other players LOL.

(B) Attack the Venetian armies besieging Ragusa. You cannot use a night attack to split them.
(C) You know you don’t need a third option… just pick B and try not to get yourself killed.

Translation:

Christ AG, get down there and kill em all...don't fudge it by using a night attack and....it should be touch and go given the troop quality, so try not to have Northnovas be a temporary Duke next turn... :whip:

...gee thanks TC :clown:

Sorry, I wrote that because I assumed there's no way you would do anything other than fight for Ragusa, even given the armies you'd have to fight. Thus, I started to skip over (C) altogether and only added it in when I saw that it looked weird to have only 2 choices. If you want another option that is not retreating or fighting, I will figure something out.

AussieGiant
10-30-2007, 12:37
TC...you're fine there mate.

I'm being a little "tongue in cheek" at the moment and it seems to have been lost in the writing.

And I can't lose Ragusa or we are screwed.

I'll attack and see what happens.

I'll be taking the same tonight if that is ok TC?

TinCow
10-30-2007, 13:57
Oh, I know you were, I just started feeling a bit guilty. I wrote your options and description before I actually teleported in the second army (it had walked away) and beefed it up. In hindsight I started wondering whether I had made it too hard for you. Seriously, though, I swear that losing Ragusa will NOT be the end of Austria. I see Ragusa and Budapest as outlying territories around the Austrian core of Venice, Vienna, and Zagreb. At a minimum, you should be able to hold onto those. One option that might be worth considering is to wait until the Venetians assault Ragusa, with Arnold as reinforcement, then try to beat them inside the walls and defeat them from the second or third ring.

Go ahead and fight whenever you like, just post in here when you do, as usual.

StoneCold
10-30-2007, 14:37
But I can't see Arnold as someone who will wait for the Venetian to assault Ragusa... :P With the Berserker trait and all, he will most likely want to wade right in before his precious citadel got assaulted.

AussieGiant
10-30-2007, 15:25
Hi TC,

I haven't seen the stacks yet...I will tonight when I get home. I'm a little concerned that you're concerned. If you're concerned then I need to be at least a little concerned...:beam:

I'll take a look before I commit to an attack after your comments.

And yes SC, it's going to be something like that in the battle write up :)

Swordbearer, Military Engineer and Preist vs Berserker, Dread Knight.

OverKnight
10-30-2007, 16:09
Help me Ultra Jesus! :laugh4:

Heh, I might get plowed under, but I'll get some good speeches in before the end.

This is going be good.

Privateerkev
10-30-2007, 16:13
Outremer is in a tough spot, but part of that is due to Privateerkev, not me.

:saint:

Jeez, it's getting to where a player can't have his avatar go on a belated honeymoon to Timbuktu anymore without being at least partially blamed for creating a difficult situation for everyone else.

~;)

econ21
10-30-2007, 16:18
Can anyone remind me of the mechanics of Pope killing and reconciliation? I know Overknight achieved reconciliation in the Heinrich era. If we remove the current Pope and replace him with a German, will we be reconciled? That seemed to be what happened post-Durazzo when Stig accidentally backed a German rather than the current Spaniard.

And could I then gift back Jerusalem to the Papacy?

OverKnight
10-30-2007, 16:23
If we elect our own Pope, or that of an ally, peace and reconciliation will be accomplished. If we merely vote for a non ally or non-german winner, our relations with the new pope will rise, but we'll still be excommed and at war.

To donate, we'd need a diplomat and an appropriate Papal Stats char to make contact with (captain, General or diplomat). Our despicable reputation might effect negotiations, but I doubt they would refuse a straight gift.

Privateerkev
10-30-2007, 16:24
I think that's how it works. When you whack the Pope, a new one will pop up where the capital was since there are no other territories. When the game checks if there is no Pope, you'll get the option to pick like Stig did. We own the College so it will be German. A German will reconcile us and put us up to full "faith" with him. Then you can gift the city back.

At least that is as far as I know. FH or OK or others might know something different.

*edit*

I wrote this before I saw OK's post

Also, isn't the Pope German? Stig picked a German and then GH never took the new save. We worked off of Stig's save IIRC

OverKnight
10-30-2007, 16:38
The pope might be German, but Pontiffs get independent minded, particularly once we're excommed and at war. He might be German, but it doesn't matter anymore.

Gotta get a shiny new one to forgive us. Just like back in the day.

econ21
10-30-2007, 16:50
Also, isn't the Pope German? Stig picked a German and then GH never took the new save. We worked off of Stig's save IIRC

Oops - you are right. I'll edit out the Spaniard reference.

OOC what happened was that Stig picked a German, we were reconciled, so then I mounted a suicide attack on a Papal army with one unit to get us excomm'd again.

IC what happened was that we were never reconciled.

AussieGiant
10-30-2007, 17:04
So a few people are leaving Outremer...hmmmm very interesting...

Privateerkev
10-30-2007, 17:10
So a few people are leaving Outremer...hmmmm very interesting...

Jan is a trendsetter. ^_^

Everyone should take some time out of their life-and-death struggles to come visit Timbuktu. The sand, the camels, the sand, the endless expanse of... sand.

Truly a beauty to behold.

Of course Jan can not take credit for this idea. Matthias told him about it back when he spent a long vacation there. The idea intrigued Jan ever since.

Now if only Jan can find some "Arnolds" there... You'd think with all of the ivory lying around, they'd let you recruit some Arnolds.

AussieGiant
10-30-2007, 17:25
Jan is a trendsetter. ^_^

Everyone should take some time out of their life-and-death struggles to come visit Timbuktu. The sand, the camels, the sand, the endless expanse of... sand.

Truly a beauty to behold.

Of course Jan can not take credit for this idea. Matthias told him about it back when he spent a long vacation there. The idea intrigued Jan ever since.

Now if only Jan can find some "Arnolds" there... You'd think with all of the ivory lying around, they'd let you recruit some Arnolds.

Ahh hhaa,

It's the old "amusing, jokey, funny stories" trick...this might just divert everyone's attention from asking any pertinent questions of the "former" King of Outremer...

edit: I do see someone in Franconia has a small amount of Jedi abilities...and has resisted this this Jedi mind trick...as a part time Dread Lord and ex pupil of "Jabba the Hut" myself, I was wondering if someone would be able to resist also...

Privateerkev
10-30-2007, 17:38
Ahh hhaa,

It's the old "amusing, jokey, funny stories" trick...this might just divert everyone's attention from asking any pertinent questions of the "former" King of Outremer...

edit: I do see someone in Franconia has a small amount of Jedi abilities...and has resisted this this Jedi mind trick...as a part time Dread Lord and ex pupil of "Jabba the Hut" myself, I was wondering if someone would be able to resist also...

"These are not the Jan's you are looking for" *waves a hand in front of AG*

"You can go about your business of executing Venetians."

"Move along"

You are more than welcome to ask all of the pertinent questions you want. I can't promise any pertinent answers though. :wink:

If you really want to know what Jan is really doing right now, I guess I could subject you and everyone on this board to a descriptive and in-depth account of what it is that actually goes on at a von Hamburg honeymoon. I assure you the pictures would be quite horrifying yet would yield fascinating results into the research of geometry if any grad student were brave enough to study them.

:beam:

AussieGiant
10-30-2007, 17:55
"These are not the Jan's you are looking for" *waves a hand in front of AG*

"You can go about your business of executing Venetians."

"Move along"

You are more than welcome to ask all of the pertinent questions you want. I can't promise any pertinent answers though. :wink:

If you really want to know what Jan is really doing right now, I guess I could subject you and everyone on this board to a descriptive and in-depth account of what it is that actually goes on at a von Hamburg honeymoon. I assure you the pictures would be quite horrifying yet would yield fascinating results into the research of geometry if any grad student were brave enough to study them.

:beam:

oh dear...it's a Sith Lord run!! :dizzy2:

FactionHeir
10-30-2007, 18:36
TC, as per my PM yesterday, Warluster is supposed to get wealth from Rheims as I have made him Count of Rheims rather than Dijon for the time being.

econ: What OK said after your post.

SC: Arnold did almost cower away from attacking an enemy siege force before, if it weren't for Hans' intervention :yes:

TinCow
10-30-2007, 18:39
TC, as per my PM yesterday, Warluster is supposed to get wealth from Rheims as I have made him Count of Rheims rather than Dijon for the time being.

Fixed. As a result, Hans has one less wealth (total of 9) and Athalwolf has two more wealth (total of 2).

AussieGiant
10-30-2007, 20:10
TC, as per my PM yesterday, Warluster is supposed to get wealth from Rheims as I have made him Count of Rheims rather than Dijon for the time being.

econ: What OK said after your post.

SC: Arnold did almost cower away from attacking an enemy siege force before, if it weren't for Hans' intervention :yes:

Yes I remember that...it really began the downward spiral to the dark side if I remember correctly :laugh4:

FactionHeir
10-30-2007, 20:12
Does that mean Arnold will feel at least a bit sorry when Hans dies? :grin2:

Privateerkev
10-30-2007, 20:12
Yes I remember that...it really began the downward spiral to the dark side if I remember correctly :laugh4:

Yet it provided the perfect catalyst to have Jan spiral upward to the light side. ^_^

AussieGiant
10-30-2007, 20:33
So having taken a look at the save...I'm well beyond my skill level on this fight...

...so off I go into the breach once more men!!

Tally ho chaps!!!

Someone get some tea on...I'll be back before you can warm up the scone's and milk the cow.

TinCow
10-30-2007, 20:48
Well, you people DID say you wanted a challenge. Surely it's more fun to fight a battle when you might actually lose...

FactionHeir
10-30-2007, 20:51
Yup. Hans' first battle actually was fun and had me at the edge of my seat.

AussieGiant
10-30-2007, 21:35
Well mother of merciful gods...

...I'm alive...and nearly bought it about 4 times including the opening charge.

Is the uploader working?

Below is the save. I've moved into the pass to try and block the next wave...but by god I'm in deep trouble now.

That bloody artillery was murder...never, ever let two serpentines sit at the back and blow seven shades of crap out of you. It IS NOT advisable...but with that many bad guy's I really couldn't get to them until the end.

edit:

I've put the save file on the org now.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1326-1.zip (http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1326-1.zip)

Northnovas
10-31-2007, 01:45
Well mother of merciful gods...

...I'm alive...and nearly bought it about 4 times including the opening charge.

Is the uploader working?

Below is the save. I've moved into the pass to try and block the next wave...but by god I'm in deep trouble now.

That bloody artillery was murder...never, ever let two serpentines sit at the back and blow seven shades of crap out of you. It IS NOT advisable...but with that many bad guy's I really couldn't get to them until the end.

edit:

I've put the save file on the org now.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1326-1.zip (http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1326-1.zip)

I am following my Duke and picking up the save for another go at the Hungarians near Budapest.
Lets get ready to RUMBLE......

econ21
10-31-2007, 02:43
I am following my Duke and picking up the save for another go at the Hungarians near Budapest.

Oh bother - serves me right for not saying I was picking up the save. Please ignore the 1326-2.zip file I just uploaded. I'll have to fight it again tomorrow night.

TinCow
10-31-2007, 02:43
Um... someone please tell me that this evening's wine has gone to my head. I just looked at AussieGiant's save game and it seems Arnold is now called "the Saint." Let's see THAT one be RPed properly.

Ignoramus
10-31-2007, 02:45
St. Arnold the Exterminator, the patron saint of butchers.

GeneralHankerchief
10-31-2007, 02:51
TC, that's one way to get everyone in the game to look at the save.

I confirm that "the Saint" is Arnold's new epithet.

Wow.

Privateerkev
10-31-2007, 02:57
Um... someone please tell me that this evening's wine has gone to my head. I just looked at AussieGiant's save game and it seems Arnold is now called "the Saint." Let's see THAT one be RPed properly.

I guess he never had "battledread". Funny because Jan does. Has to do with how many people you fight and how many enemies your avatar kills and so forth. Completely different from captordread, strategydread, or ransomdread so I guess that explains how Arnold could have one kind of dread and not the other.

:book:

For those interested, here are some details ripped from the noc site. battlechivalry is gotten from:


50% chance whenever General without BattleDread has 9+ kills in battle.
Whenever a defending General without BattleDread fought in battle at odds 0.06-0.49.
66% chance whenever a General without BattleDread fought in battle at odds 0.5-.
33% chance whenever a Catholic or Orthodox General without BattleDread fought in battle against an Islamic General.
66% chance whenever an Islamic General without BattleDread fought in battle against a Catholic General.
33% chance whenever a General without BattleDread wins an Average+ Victory with less than 10% enemies killed, without the General fighting, at odds 0.94-.

http://www.noctalis.com/dis/totalwar/m2tw_general.shtml

I guess the way to reconcile the seemingly contradicting traits is this;

Arnold is very knightly and chivalrous in battle but afterwards... watch out. ^_^

(which I guess means that Jan is the opposite. Mean in battle but really really nice afterwards.)

Northnovas
10-31-2007, 03:21
Oh bother - serves me right for not saying I was picking up the save. Please ignore the 1326-2.zip file I just uploaded. I'll have to fight it again tomorrow night.

Here is the new safe 1326aa-2:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1326aa-2.zip

Battle report done. The screen shot messed up and didn't capture my victory window.

STATS
https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/northnovas/Karl%20Battles/1326g-stats.jpg

Prisoners:
https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/northnovas/Karl%20Battles/1326h-prisoners.jpg

Tamur
10-31-2007, 03:28
Taking the save, will post back in about an hour.

Tamur
10-31-2007, 03:29
Ermm... 1326a-2 is a 0-length file when I try to download it. Any chance of a new upload Northnovas?

Northnovas
10-31-2007, 03:37
Ermm... 1326a-2 is a 0-length file when I try to download it. Any chance of a new upload Northnovas?

Okay try this:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1326aa-2.zip

Confirmed this one works had to aa because I could not overwrite the other file.

OverKnight
10-31-2007, 04:19
Duke Arnold the Saint? I like it. His Priest will be so proud. :laugh4:

Just because you're holy doesn't mean you're not neck deep in blood, particularly in the Middle Ages.

I've been trying to RP that with Matthias.

I'm just glad Matt finally has a nick name, though an unoriginial one.

Otto had some serious stats but never managed to pick one up. Maybe because his career, regarding dread and chiv, was all over the place.

Edit: Is the uploader working again?

2nd Edit: @TC, I am enjoying myself. Any grumbling is strictly IC. :thumbsup:

TinCow
10-31-2007, 04:42
Yes, the Org PBM Uploader is working again.

AussieGiant
10-31-2007, 10:14
I absolutely did not see the name change, are you all bonkers?

I'm not home to check this out until Friday so can someone post a pick?

I clearly need to roleplay this event.

Any ideas, because I'm a bit stumped. Can someone explain the mechanic's of this to me?

TinCow
10-31-2007, 12:14
Taking the save for a few minutes for some editing.

[edit:] Done
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1326-3.zip

AussieGiant
10-31-2007, 13:38
"Arnold the Inspiring"

:dizzy2:

My word what a tragic situation.

FH, can you please help out here?

TinCow
10-31-2007, 14:10
Eh? Are you serious? Does it say "Arnold the Inspiring" when you load it up?

I've got to admit, it seems a bit fishy to me. I'm not sure what trait gives "the Saint" but I don't see anything on Arnold's list that would appear to qualify. FactionHeir, can you take a look at it?

FactionHeir
10-31-2007, 14:25
Taking a look now

[edit]

Arnold the Inspiring.
Epithet comes from having highest level in the trait InspiringSpeaker (which you get from successful heroic victories)

For those of you who see "the Saint": Your KOTRfix is not properly installed. Vanilla gives "the Saint" as epithet for the highest level of that trait (which makes absolutely no sense, which is why I changed it)

TinCow
10-31-2007, 14:43
You've got to be kidding me. I swear I installed KOTRfix properly last time. This is getting ridiculous...

AussieGiant
10-31-2007, 14:52
Ok so I have FH's files installed correctly...good to know.

And as I got a heroic victory I'm "dreadfully inspiring"!!

How in the holy hell do I write that up :inquisitive:

FactionHeir
10-31-2007, 14:53
The file controlling the naming of traits are string.bin files. Are they in your data\text folder?

Also, since you got several M2TW installations, its possible that the shortcut you are using may be linking to the wrong executable (or wrong executable in the right folder and vice versa)?

[edit]
AG: You inspire your men with your victories and your grand speeches that you give them during/after them. Your speeches make the men go above their abilities and be more optimistic in general.

[edit2]
TC: Fool proof method would be to use the switch in a read-only preference file. I.e. adding the code:


[io]
file_first = true

To the top of your medieval2.preference.cfg file, save and mark read-only.

TinCow
10-31-2007, 15:10
No, I know it's the right shortcut, because I labelled it "M2TW KOTR" a long time ago to prevent confusion. I will check the install again when I get home this evening, since clearly something is wrong. Do the game files have to be unpacked for this to work? I didn't bother to do that with the KOTR install.

FactionHeir
10-31-2007, 15:24
Nope, no need to unpack your complete game. Only need to unzip the KOTRfix files from their archive.

TinCow
10-31-2007, 15:29
It occurrs to me that perhaps I didn't tell winrar to keep the existing file structure when extracting. If I did not, all of the files would have gone into data and none into the proper subfolders.

Privateerkev
10-31-2007, 15:30
Ok so I have FH's files installed correctly...good to know.

And as I got a heroic victory I'm "dreadfully inspiring"!!

How in the holy hell do I write that up :inquisitive:

Well Arnold did serve as a sort of a role-model to other young nobles who wanted to go the dread route. One could say they were inspired. ^_^

and he certainly inspired Jan to go in the complete opposite direction... :beam:

FactionHeir
10-31-2007, 15:38
It occurrs to me that perhaps I didn't tell winrar to keep the existing file structure when extracting. If I did not, all of the files would have gone into data and none into the proper subfolders.

Could be possible I suppose, although I did include folders in the zip file.
Have a check when you get back and let me know your findings.

Tamur
10-31-2007, 16:49
Will we get a nice writeup of the Hümmel v. von Salza encounter at some point? This should be a great fight, especially if the terrain is a factor.

Privateerkev
10-31-2007, 16:53
Will we get a nice writeup of the Hümmel v. von Salza encounter at some point? This should be a great fight, especially if the terrain is a factor.

Well until now, they have basically just stood on opposite hills and stuck their tongues out at eachother. ^_^

Now their actually being forced to fight.

Should be interesting. :yes:

Dutch_guy
10-31-2007, 17:33
Will we get a nice writeup of the Hümmel v. von Salza encounter at some point? This should be a great fight, especially if the terrain is a factor.

Yes indeed, their armies are more or less evenly matched. Would have been a fun MP battle I'd say, although now we get to follow the entire battle from the beginning to the end.

:balloon2:

FactionHeir
10-31-2007, 17:47
I'd say Warluster would have an edge if this were a MP battle.

In a set-up battle by old parameters, Ignoramus has the advantage due to having footknight regiments and overall more soldiers.

Depends on whether econ changes any parameters though.

TinCow
10-31-2007, 17:49
Will we get a nice writeup of the Hümmel v. von Salza encounter at some point? This should be a great fight, especially if the terrain is a factor.

Unless they both opt for multiplayer, it will be fought like our previous PvP battles. The most recent example was the Battle of Normandy (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93050), but that was not a good example since it ended quickly with little fighting. Better examples of what you can expect are the Battle of Ancrya (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74303) and the Battle for Rome (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=75664) from the WOTS game. The Battle for Rome thread in particular is still an excellent read.

Tamur
10-31-2007, 18:21
Ha, I had forgotten about UPS and Servius' escape, thanks for the reminder TinCow. That was great fun.

econ21
10-31-2007, 18:30
I am assuming the battle will be in the tabletop style. I have allowed for four turns of movement, but it will continue until a decisive result is achieved.

I'm allowing 24 hours per set of orders, so it is unlikely we will progress to next year until Monday evening by the earliest.

Hopefully, Warluster and Ignoramus can continue to give orders over the weekend - they should contact me if not so we can work around it.

TinCow
10-31-2007, 23:02
The file controlling the naming of traits are string.bin files. Are they in your data\text folder?

Also, since you got several M2TW installations, its possible that the shortcut you are using may be linking to the wrong executable (or wrong executable in the right folder and vice versa)?

[edit]
AG: You inspire your men with your victories and your grand speeches that you give them during/after them. Your speeches make the men go above their abilities and be more optimistic in general.

[edit2]
TC: Fool proof method would be to use the switch in a read-only preference file. I.e. adding the code:


[io]
file_first = true

To the top of your medieval2.preference.cfg file, save and mark read-only.

I checked and the files are all in the right places. I then added the code you listed above and Arnold appeared as "the Inspiring," so that appears to have fixed it. Many thanks.

GeneralHankerchief
10-31-2007, 23:04
I'm good now too.

econ21
10-31-2007, 23:20
Taking the save.

Ferret
10-31-2007, 23:43
I checked and the files are all in the right places. I then added the code you listed above and Arnold appeared as "the Inspiring," so that appears to have fixed it. Many thanks.

That's funny, mine says he's called 'Emperor Arnold the Mighty' :inquisitive:

see:
https://img458.imageshack.us/img458/3759/emperorarnoldkf5.th.jpg (https://img458.imageshack.us/my.php?image=emperorarnoldkf5.jpg)

StoneCold
11-01-2007, 00:20
Arnold the usurper? :P

Cecil XIX
11-01-2007, 00:46
Boy, Arnold sure is a man of many talents. :D

Stuperman
11-01-2007, 00:53
I've finally got orders in for Ajaccio, and I find this all red motif very hard to read.

GeneralHankerchief
11-01-2007, 00:55
Stuperman: You can change your skin on the little toolbar below the last post, should be the dropdown menu on the left.

I changed mine right back to Sword Dojo.

Stuperman
11-01-2007, 00:58
Many thanks GH, I can see again!

econ21
11-01-2007, 02:16
Fought my battles:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1326-4.zip

Based on that experience, I don't think allowing players two hours to keep the save is enough - my fights took over three!

I've broken through to Aleppo, but have not done anything with it yet: my computer started to overheat! People can play on from the above save; I'll take possession sometime tomorrow.

Ignoramus
11-01-2007, 02:31
I'm glad I'm only in a civil war, not in a hornets' nest.

I don't envy TinCow, having to engage those Byzantine armies. Still, I haven't yet fought a battle in the Cataclysm.

StoneCold
11-01-2007, 02:32
WOW, Econ, this you definitely have to make a battle report unless you didn't have the time and resource during the battle to take pictures of the battle.

Good Job, TC must be pulling out his hair when he read this... :P

Privateerkev
11-01-2007, 03:32
Based on that experience, I don't think allowing players two hours to keep the save is enough - my fights took over three!


When I have multiple fights, I definitely need more than 2 hours. My computer is not the fastest in the world and I take a while just to load up.

The rule of thumb should probably be, if your gonna take the save, announce, then play it, then upload it as soon as reasonably possible. Maybe a hard and fast time limit isn't the best idea but the reasoning is sound. When we get a bunch of battles in a row, I've seen a major traffic jam develop as people wait for the save to come back. It gets worse if someone doesn't call the save when they take it or they announce it in a vague way. Then we all just sit with our thumbs up an orifice as we wonder whether we can take the save or not. ^_^

OverKnight
11-01-2007, 05:57
I'm taking the save. With the Greek advantage in artillery, I've changed my mind and decided to face them in the open where I have more room to maneuver.

Battle fought: http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1326-5.zip

TinCow
11-01-2007, 13:33
Good Job, TC must be pulling out his hair when he read this... :P

I'm kind of impressed, actually. I didn't expect the people in Outremer to attack at all, let alone defeat 5 stacks in one turn. All but Matthias are pulling out eventually anyway, so I will achieve my objective, which is a further reduction in the size of Outremer. (Every territory lost gives added fun in future Chancellorships to recapture it.) They have earned a short break from the ridiculous battles. When it is over, though, I will come up with some situations that make the recent ones look easy.

Tamur
11-01-2007, 14:04
When it is over, though, I will come up with some situations that make the recent ones look easy.

TinCow, do I hear a note of GM smack-talk here? :tongue:

TinCow
11-01-2007, 14:26
TinCow, do I hear a note of GM smack-talk here? :tongue:

Why, I don't know what you talking about! :laugh4:








I admit it, I'm a smack-talker. Especially in FPS and RPGs. It's a habit I picked up playing Goldeneye and Mario Kart 64 in college. My friends and I were so heavily involved in smack-talk that it turned into something of a fine art. We created many entirely new words to insult each other with, simply because the extent of our insults required more variety than the English language could offer. Jade Empire was a recent highlight in my smack-talk career. Not only could I regularly inform the computer of just how badass I was, how much of a mistake it was to mess with me, and exactly what painful things I would do to them, but I could make Kung Fu noises while doing it! :chucks:

If you think that's bad, I actually know a guy who's a dedicated Heckler. He spends a lot of his free time attending college and minor league sports games and heckling the players. He has an entire code of conduct to it (No swearing, the insults must be clever, etc.) and researches players' stats, history, and even families before going to the games. He is the Jedi Master of Smack-Talk.

Privateerkev
11-01-2007, 14:45
I admit it, I'm a smack-talker. Especially in FPS and RPGs. It's a habit I picked up playing Goldeneye and Mario Kart 64 in college.

I loved playing MP Goldeneye and MK64! Though, for my old group, the MP console game that got us the most competitive and prone to violence was...

The New Tetris. I know it may be hard to believe but it is true. Throw this game up on a projector screen, invite people over, serve food and alcohol, and you will see a level of competition that makes FPS games and Paintball look as tame as playing jump rope in terms of competitive spirit.

A bunch of college age kids screaming and swearing at each other over falling blocks. Truly a site to behold. ^_^

Super Smash Bros. Melee comes close though. Few things are more fun than annoying somebody by always picking Pikachu as your character. :evil:

AussieGiant
11-01-2007, 14:56
I'm wondering when all this is going to come crashing down around our heads? :beam:

I nearly got myself killed in that last battle...it's not as if it could not have gone horribly wrong.

Don't let up though TC, this is what it is all about.

The problem is...we really do need to be pushed back but without sacrificing the fun.

econ21
11-01-2007, 21:52
Taking the save again - I am going to try to give away Aleppo and Mini Econ will try aggressive negotiations with the Pope.

Privateerkev
11-01-2007, 22:18
Time to play "whack a pope" again. :smash:

I'll have to think up exactly how Uncle Jan will react to his Pope-killing nephew but that's part of the challenge. ^_^

It's probably best that Jan is out of contact and completely unaware of the events going on in 1326... :dizzy2:

GeneralHankerchief
11-01-2007, 22:19
Mini Econ, I don't know your experience with M2TW, but it's always a wonderful experience when you knock off your first Pope. Enjoy it. :bow:

RoadKill
11-01-2007, 23:38
Wait, I'm confused who is mini Econ?

gibsonsg91921
11-01-2007, 23:42
econ's son, who is RPing dieter von kassel

TinCow
11-01-2007, 23:46
Shouldn't he really be called Microecon?

gibsonsg91921
11-01-2007, 23:47
ba doom tsh

GeneralHankerchief
11-02-2007, 00:35
I think we've already had that joke.

It elicited the same groan though, so it does have staying power. :wall:

econ21
11-02-2007, 02:29
The latest save is:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1326-6.zip

gibsonsg91921
11-02-2007, 03:29
i guess i missed it the first time lol

Privateerkev
11-02-2007, 07:00
i guess i missed it the first time lol

Well, a bad joke the first time should be just as fun the next time. ^_^

Here is the original:


If we have a mini-econ does that make econ21, macro-econ?

Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week

Stuperman
11-02-2007, 07:35
lol, it's the same but different.

Ignoramus
11-02-2007, 07:42
I've checking out the surnames of our charcters and where they originated.

Dietrich von Dassel - Southern Saxony
Fredericus Erlach - Switzerland
Athawolf von Salza - Austria
Lothar Steffen - Prussia
Edmund Becker - Prussia

AussieGiant
11-02-2007, 09:16
So where do you think "The Inspiring" comes from Igno? :)

I still can't believe a guy with 9 Dread can make a few speeches and then become renowned world wide for it...

is anyone out there a professional speech writer?

Northnovas
11-02-2007, 12:09
Carefully choosen words, said at a particular place, at the right time will bring the desired effect to move the listener.

econ21
11-02-2007, 12:19
According to Factionheir, "the inspiring" comes from a string of heroic victories - the words of a winner (a MacArthur, a Neil Armstrong, a Paul Volker, a Bill Gates, whoever) carry much more weight than those of a more locquacious loser.

Plus, I think Duke Arnold's fierce persona in the roleplaying would undoubtedly "inspire" many under him to do what he wants. :whip:

I'd have a harder time justifying the "Saint" moniker. :laugh4:

TinCow
11-02-2007, 12:27
Better than "Arnold the Perspiring"

gibsonsg91921
11-02-2007, 13:16
and the kastiliens are from spain! whoa!

AussieGiant
11-02-2007, 14:01
Thanks for the comments boys.

I get home tonight and I realised I haven't written up a good solid battle report for awhile.

The combination of the name change and nearly getting myself "totalled" a few times means I really want to do a good job on the Ragusa battle report against those merchant pansies.

TinCow
11-02-2007, 15:04
Thanks for the battle report, econ21. It's helpful to me to see how my various army formations perform. I'm going to start giving 'tough' enemy armies far more experience than I have been. The first Outremer battle you fought was the first army I ever did that to. It looks like they performed better and took longer to rout, which makes sense due to the chevron bonus. I don't mind players beating the AI at all, it's the 'bloodless' victories that annoy me. Triple gold chevron armies will probably exact a decent toll even when they are defeated. The chevron morale boost will hopefully make up for the lack of morale that most of them experience from being led by a Captain and by the inevitable Captain/General suicide charge.

econ21
11-02-2007, 15:13
Yes, I suspect that the comand + chivalry/dread bonuses that most of our avatars have are roughly comparable to maxing out unit experience.

Position also had something to do with it. Attacking up hill meant I suffered in the missile duel and the climatic AI charge. MiniEcon had a much easier time in his battle as the enemy attacked him uphill rather than vice versa. Plus the fearsome looking Swiss Guard proved utterly useless in AI hands as their phalanx formation made them too slow.

I did wimp out on the battle at Aleppo - the AI could not cope with the relief/sally - but I did not know it would be so inept and my computer was about to explode (77 degrees centigrade and the whole screen a fearful pink hue). Maybe ban relief/sallies as well as night time battles?

TinCow
11-02-2007, 15:21
Maybe ban relief/sallies as well as night time battles?

I won't do that as an absolute rule, though I will consider it in individual circumstances, as I did with the current turn. The relief of Aleppo was easier than it should have been due to my own error. Those two armies should have been next to each other so that they both had to be engaged at once. You can see that was my intention because I banned a night attack in Elberhard's turn description. I'll try not to make that error again, but I'm not displeased with the results. Your army is heavily depleted, you lost your 'Arnolds,' and you are leaving Outremer. Pyhrric victories are something that I have been trying to achieve, and I think that counts as one, so I am a happy man. The same applies, to a lesser extent, to Arnold's battle.

Do not be concerned about whether I will be able to reduce the Reich as much as it needs to be in order to provide a fun challenge for the rest of the game. I have several more methods to ramp up the difficulty that I have yet to implement. You will see them pop up over the next 2-3 turns. All is going according to plan at the moment.

Privateerkev
11-02-2007, 15:38
Do not be concerned about whether I will be able to reduce the Reich as much as it needs to be in order to provide a fun challenge for the rest of the game. I have several more methods to ramp up the difficulty that I have yet to implement. You will see them pop up over the next 2-3 turns. All is going according to plan at the moment.

http://thousandrobots.com/blog/files/palpatine_02.jpg

"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design."

TinCow
11-02-2007, 15:48
I find this more appropriate to the situation, actually...

http://www.thatsstupid.net/pie/images/Dark_Helmet.jpg

"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb."

Privateerkev
11-02-2007, 15:51
Maybe it's a mixture of both?

^_^

AussieGiant
11-02-2007, 16:21
This "Arnold" thing for war elephant's is really sicking isn't it :beam:

I must admitt that Arnold is basically a routing machine against Captain lead armies.

If I was personally engaged on a flank the enemy would fight for a little while and then rout.

I'd them move the Duke to another part of the fight and all of a sudden the units on the flank I just left would reconsitute and get back into the fray.

Edit: And TC, you're now, actually, starting to worry me with your "All is going according to plan at the moment" comment.

FactionHeir
11-02-2007, 17:07
I think what's really going to make a difference against Players is armor + weapon upgrades. They are more than just the point that is being displayed afterall. :wink:

Ferret
11-03-2007, 01:14
wow did MiniEcon really fight that battle? He's a tactical genious!

Edit:400th post :beam:

OverKnight
11-03-2007, 01:20
He has a good teacher. I particularly liked the terrible decision that had to be made at the end of the battle. Should be a good write up.

Edit:
econ21: "Son, why did you kill the Pope in cold blood?"
mini-econ: "I learned it from watching you Dad! I learned it from watching you!"

This might be funny only for the Americans in the crowd.

Privateerkev
11-03-2007, 01:21
He executed the Pope!?!

:laugh4:

econ21
11-03-2007, 01:38
wow did MiniEcon really fight that battle?

We fought it "Time Commanders" style - with me on the mouse and him giving me orders (including for the screenshots).

Unfortunately, we played the battle on my earlier save, not Overknight's. So when I found out, I had to refight it alone when MiniEcon was in bed. I suffered twice as many casualties doing it alone as when I did it under his orders. However, using the console was able to mimic the result close enough.

So we are going with the first run for the story and screenshots, but the save works on from the second.


He executed the Pope!?!

It was a tough one. During the battle, there was a pop-up saying the enemy general had fallen in battle (but no voice over announcement), so we were both a bit shocked and appalled when he turned up on the ransom list.

Releasing him would mean the whole battle achieved nothing.

I advocated ransoming him for bad meta-gaming reasons - if the Papacy had money, Dieter would have the consolation of being rich; if it did not, the mission would be achieved and Dieter would be off the hook in terms of bad traits.

However, MiniEcon rightly could not rationalise such thinking IC, so went with execution.

I am not exactly sure how he is going to write it up, but in previous battles, MiniEcon has been influenced by the end of the Godfather: "Do you, Michael Corelone, repent your sins?" etc and has been asking all his Papist prisoners if they renounced their sins before releasing them. I figure the Pope should just say "No", which obviously would not work out too well for him. :laugh4:

Privateerkev
11-03-2007, 01:50
It was a tough one. During the battle, there was a pop-up saying the enemy general had fallen in battle (but no voice over announcement), so we were both a bit shocked and appalled when he turned up on the ransom list.

Releasing him would mean the whole battle achieved nothing.

I advocated ransoming him for bad meta-gaming reasons - if the Papacy had money, Dieter would have the consolation of being rich; if it did not, the mission would be achieved and Dieter would be off the hook in terms of bad traits.

However, MiniEcon rightly could not rationalise such thinking IC, so went with execution.

I am not exactly sure how he is going to write it up, but in previous battles, MiniEcon has been influenced by the end of the Godfather: "Do you, Michael Corelone, repent your sins?" etc and has been asking all his Papist prisoners if they renounced their sins before releasing them. I figure the Pope should just say "No", which obviously would not work out too well for him. :laugh4:

OCC I don't blame you guys for whacking him since that was the whole point of the battle. I am just amused and curious as to what the "official" IC story will end up being. Maybe make it where Dieter had to make a hard decision for the good of the Reich. "Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and all that. Reconciliation was so important that it justified a tough decision ect...

It's still funny though... ^_^

GeneralHankerchief
11-03-2007, 01:57
Tell Mini Econ that he can contact me regarding initiation at his pleasure. :beam:

Cecil XIX
11-03-2007, 02:20
All right, I'm taking the save. Time to sally forth and help out.

Cecil XIX
11-03-2007, 03:15
Battle fought.

https://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9563/results1hl8.jpg
https://img514.imageshack.us/img514/2872/results2ag0.jpg

OverKnight
11-03-2007, 04:09
Tell Mini Econ that he can contact me regarding initiation at his pleasure. :beam:

Hey GH, am I a member? I've never directly killed a Pope in battle, but I did order the death of one while Chancellor. Plus I posted a montage story that went with it.

Just curious. :laugh4:

GeneralHankerchief
11-03-2007, 04:50
I'll have to get back to you on that one.

A point in your favor is that you were enough of a :daisy: to order the death of a Pope, but on the other hand it wasn't done for selfish reasons.

Mini Econ also did it for noble reasons, but he actually did the deed himself and plus slaughtered the poor guy after the battle was over.

I'll let you know the council's* decision as soon as it arrives. :tongue:

DISCLAIMER: It is a council of one since there is currently only one member.

AussieGiant
11-03-2007, 11:14
Ok boy's.

Battle report for Arnold the Inspiring is up. I focused more on a good speech than the battle on this one.

I borrowed from General Patton and Lord of the Rings.

I love Christoper Lee.

Good result against the Pole Cecil. Polish nobles v militia troops mainly...tough.

OverKnight
11-03-2007, 13:10
Patton and Saruman? Interesting combination. Good choice for inspiration.

I think you nailed "dreadfully inspiring" :2thumbsup:

TinCow
11-03-2007, 13:39
I am taking the save.

TinCow
11-03-2007, 14:58
There are two battles remaining to be fought this turn (not including the Battle of the Flemish Crossroads). They are as follows:

Péter von Kastilien:
You have returned to Frankfurt to rescue it from the besieging Danes. The city will certainly fall next year if you do not aid it. Attack now and free the ancient capital of the Reich.

Note: You are now in an area that has 1 unit of Mercenary Pavise Crossbowmen (cost 3) and 1 unit of Mercenary Spearmen available (cost 2). Since you have 5 wealth, you may hire either or both if you wish before you attack.

Fritz von Kastilien:
Your raid deep into Danish territory was totally unexpected and you have caught them off-guard. You stand outside the gates of Stockholm, pleased to see that the city is essentially defenseless. As if your luck was not good enough already, the heir to the Danish throne, Godfred, is trapped inside. If you can capture him, the ransom would be exceptionally large.

Note: You gave me free-reign to hire mercenaries. I chose to hire 2 units of Free Company Longbowmen for you (cost 2 each, after your special ability discount), as you were lacking in non-artillery ranged attack. Plus, who doesn't like stakes?
Note 2: Make sure you tell me whether you sack, occupy, or exterminate the city. Do NOT destroy any buildings in Stockholm. If you want to 'ravage' the city, tell me so and I will provide the proper rewards. I don't want the actual in-game buildings knocked down, though, as it will cause long-term harm to the Danish AI. Best to keep them powerful.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTR1326-8.zip

gibsonsg91921
11-03-2007, 15:04
sweet! my first taste of cataclysm! ill try and fight 'er soon

TinCow
11-03-2007, 16:06
Was just updating the battle stats and I noticed that there have already been 5 heroic victories this year, with 4 new famous battle markers on the map. Impressive, gentlement.

Cecil XIX
11-03-2007, 16:30
Good result against the Pole Cecil. Polish nobles v militia troops mainly...tough.

I must say the AI did a good job keeping the Captain protected. He was behind the main line and next to other troops the whole time.

gibsonsg91921
11-03-2007, 19:09
nice cecil, i owe you one if arnold wont cut off my balls.

its my turn, i call the save!

hit up the stories thread for yet another peter thinking story!

gibsonsg91921
11-03-2007, 19:44
save up - kotr1326a-3.zip or something like that

picture not working!!

tally another to the heroic victory, famous battles list.

Peter vs Grim
1312 vs 1583
lost - 535 vs 793
remaining - 777 vs 790
killed - 431 (357) vs 522 (67)

executed the prisoners, the value was like 3400


edit - AH FUDGE!!!! i took the wrong ****ing save! i dont have time to fight it again. sorry guys idk what to do.

TinCow
11-03-2007, 22:56
There's plenty of time left before the next turn. It won't start until Monday at the earliest, depending on what happens with the Flemish Crossroads battle. Try to refight it before then. If you do not, you can either skip it or I will fight it for you and attempt to replicate the results you listed above.

FactionHeir
11-03-2007, 23:12
If Warluster can't be bothered or lost interest in the PBM, I wouldn't mind sending orders for him instead.

gibsonsg91921
11-03-2007, 23:42
ignoramus needs to recruit new people to the principality of swabia - that thread is looking lonely. also, if he wins the civil war and becomes like a protectorate of the holy roman empire, he should consider renaming it like the Principality of Flanders or the Principality of Belgium, to avoid confusion with the Duchy of Swabia.

Warluster
11-04-2007, 05:04
My orders were sent, I was quite busy yesterday with selling heaps of my stuff.


If Warluster can't be bothered or lost interest in the PBM
THat won't happen, I quite enjoy this PBM.

OverKnight
11-04-2007, 07:32
So the save that TC uploaded:

Redacted: No longer current

With so many battles being fought in a turn, we need to make sure we're downloading the most current save. Check out the save before you fight your battle and make sure it syncs up with the latest events.

TinCow
11-04-2007, 15:49
I am going to set a time limit on the two remaining battles. They must be completed by Monday, November 5th, 6pm EST.

Reposting for convenience.

Péter von Kastilien: (gibsonsg91921: Try to refight this battle before the time limit. If you do not, I will skip it unless you tell me to fight it for you and attempt to replicate the results you listed before.)
You have returned to Frankfurt to rescue it from the besieging Danes. The city will certainly fall next year if you do not aid it. Attack now and free the ancient capital of the Reich.

Note: You are now in an area that has 1 unit of Mercenary Pavise Crossbowmen (cost 3) and 1 unit of Mercenary Spearmen available (cost 2). Since you have 5 wealth, you may hire either or both if you wish before you attack.

Fritz von Kastilien: (If this has not been fought when it becomes time to end the turn, I will autoresolve it (certain victory with negligible casualties) and sack the city.)
Your raid deep into Danish territory was totally unexpected and you have caught them off-guard. You stand outside the gates of Stockholm, pleased to see that the city is essentially defenseless. As if your luck was not good enough already, the heir to the Danish throne, Godfred, is trapped inside. If you can capture him, the ransom would be exceptionally large.

Note: You gave me free-reign to hire mercenaries. I chose to hire 2 units of Free Company Longbowmen for you (cost 2 each, after your special ability discount), as you were lacking in non-artillery ranged attack. Plus, who doesn't like stakes?
Note 2: Make sure you tell me whether you sack, occupy, or exterminate the city. Do NOT destroy any buildings in Stockholm. If you want to 'ravage' the city, tell me so and I will provide the proper rewards. I don't want the actual in-game buildings knocked down, though, as it will cause long-term harm to the Danish AI. Best to keep them powerful.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTR1326-9.zip (Save updated after refighting Peter's battle)

gibsonsg91921
11-04-2007, 15:50
AGH! i am so sorry TinCow. i really don't have the time to refight it - im busy. please attempt to replicate the results? thanks very very very much

TinCow
11-04-2007, 16:01
Will do. Taking the save.

[edit:] Done.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTR1326-9.zip

I actually got pretty close. The enemy kills were about the same, but Peter's losses were 300 less than you suffered. So, after the battle I disbanded regiments that totaled about 300 men to compensate. It is still a heroic victory and you still get your new battle marker. For the purposes of the stats in the Chancellor's thread, I will use the stats you listed from your own battle.

AussieGiant
11-04-2007, 16:48
Very nice story TC.

In can entirely imagine this story occurring many times throughout the Reich.

gibsonsg91921
11-04-2007, 18:07
thanks very much TC!

GeneralHankerchief
11-04-2007, 18:23
The best part about this entire thing is that even if we survive the cataclysm we still have the Plague coming up in the next Chancellorship. :laugh4:

TinCow
11-04-2007, 18:28
And the Timurids in the Chancellorship after that.

gibsonsg91921
11-04-2007, 18:36
and peter's kingship eventually.. dun dun dun

Ferret
11-04-2007, 18:40
bugsy being the general who discovers America! :clown: