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econ21
11-17-2007, 21:49
This thread is for all out of character discussion of the King of the Romans PBM - a HRE M2TW game. Please post in this thread if you have any queries or are unsure where to post.

The list of players and description of their avatars is maintained in the first post of the Chancellor and Governors thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383081&postcount=1



*************KOTR FAQ (UPDATED)**********************

The following paragraphs are designed to provide a simple understanding of the KOTR game and how it works. If anything in these paragraphs conflicts with one of the Game Rules, the Rule takes precedent.

Introduction

The general idea of the King of the Romans (KOTR) game is to allow a large group of players to determine the fate and development of the Holy Roman Empire in M2TW.

All players are “Electors” and will belong to one of the four Ducal Houses, Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). Eventually all players will be represented by an in-game character known as an “avatar.” This will typically be a general, but agents such as spies, priests or diplomats can be used as well upon request. It is not advisable to use an assassin as an avatar, as they have short life expectancies. If a player’s avatar gets into a battle, the player is expected to download the savegame and fight the battle.

Collectively, the Electors form the Imperial Diet. This has two functions - to elect a Chancellor and to create Edicts. The Chancellor will be the “reigning player” and control the game during his term in office. He will move all the generals, authorize any buildings from the build queues and train any units/agents. “Edicts” are laws that require the Chancellor to take specific actions. These can be very wide ranging in scope, but typically include such things as declaring war against another nation, seeking an alliance with a neutral country, or making peace with an enemy nation.

How to Join the Game

In order to join the game and get started, all you need to do is post in the current OOC thread that you would like to join and select one of the four Ducal Houses. You can then start participating in as much or as little detail as you wish. You will always be able to find the location of the relevant game threads in the second post of the Imperial Library (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383644&postcount=2).

The Ranks

KOTR attempts to mimic the feudal political system of medieval Europe. There are several ranks which each player can obtain, all of which come with their own benefit and responsibilities. If you wish to be highly involved, you can take on roles that require more work and responsibility. If you wish to simply observe and cast votes during election times, you will have to do very little. The extent of your involvement is entirely up to you.

Electors

All players, except the Emperor, are Electors, even if they hold another rank. It is the lowest rank in the game and all new players begin at this level. As an Elector, you may speak in the Imperial Diet, propose one Edict per session, vote on Edicts, and vote for Chancellor. All Electors belong to one of the Ducal Houses. You are not required to follow the orders or suggestions of your Duke, but he has the ability to bestow and remove ranks and privileges. If you have ambitions to rise to a higher rank, carefully consider whether your Duke will approve of your actions or not.

It is important to remember that you can only freely propose one personal Edict per Diet session. Choose an issue that is important to you and think very carefully about how you word it. A poorly worded or unimportant Edict can easily be ignored and forgotten. The only way you can propose more than one Edict per Diet session is through the approval of your Duke.

Electors will be provided with avatars on the basis of seniority; first come, first served. Generals are the most popular avatars and there may be a waiting period to obtain one. Agent avatars can usually be obtained quickly, but are not as complex and are not really suited for players who wish to rise to a higher rank. If you take a general as an avatar, you will be expected to fight any battles the avatar gets into, assuming he commands the army. You will have 48 hours in which to fight the battle after you are notified about it. When that time expires, the battle will be autoresolved, which could result in the death of your avatar. If you do not want to fight battles and there is a shortage of generals for avatars, please do not accept one. If you want an avatar but do not wish to fight, please consider using an agent.

Counts

Counts are prominent nobles within their Houses. The title of Count can be bestowed upon an Elector by his Duke. The role of Count is identical to that of an Elector with a general avatar, with a few exceptions.

A Count rules over one of the settlements (city or castle) in his Ducal House. The Count may, at his discretion, determine the order in which buildings are created in that settlement (build queue). The Chancellor is not required to build anything in the settlement, but if something is built, it must be in the order determined by the Count. The Count can also set the tax rate in his settlement, if it is a city. Counts gain a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. Counts can name an heir to take over their lands when they die. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar who is not already a Count.

There are two kinds of Counts: Freehold Counts and Bonded Counts. The difference is simple. Freehold Counts are the natural born sons of a Duke. They cannot be removed from control of their settlement, though the Duke can still name another as his heir if a Freehold Count displeases him. Bonded Counts are non-blood sons of a Duke, such as adoptees, sons-in-law, or anyone else who is not a natural born son. Bonded Counts can be stripped of their titles and lands at any time and for any reason by the Duke.

Dukes

Dukes are the heads of the Houses. They are figures of authority and they wield a great deal of power. There is only one Duke per House and a player can only become Duke by being the Duke’s heir at the time of his death. The role of Duke has many more powers than that of Count and Dukes gain a significant influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

The Duke rules over the capital of his House and all provinces which do not have a Count. Just like with a Count, the Duke can determine the build queue and tax rate for these settlements, but he can give orders for as many of them as he wishes. Dukes are also responsible for promoting and demoting Bonded Counts. A Duke may give any Elector with a general avatar the rank of Count, making them a Bonded Count. He may take away their lands at any time or switch their lands as he sees fit. The Duke can name an heir to take over as head of his House when he dies. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar, and it is recommended (though not necessary) that the person already be a Count.

The Duke is responsible for managing the affairs of his House and will often be dealing directly with the Chancellor and the Kaiser in high-level political discussions. Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. These can be the Duke’s own Edicts, but it is recommended that the Duke pick at least some of them from amongst the ‘extras’ his Electors want to put forward. It would be entirely appropriate for the Duke to use incentives and threats to ensure that the policies he wants get put forward. However, remember that even these extra Edict proposals must come pre-seconded by two members of his House. Don’t anger too many of your Electors or they could prevent you from using your extra Edict proposals!

Finally, the Duke controls the Household Army. The Household Army is the House’s personal military force and it is largely independent of outside control. The Duke is responsible for determining where it is garrisoned, who commands it, and what orders it is given. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Stewards

Stewards are Electors who are temporarily acting as Dukes. KOTR originally started with two Stewards, but for the most part, the title of Steward is a temporary one bestowed on a House Elector for a short time when a Duke is unavailable to fulfill his duties. In reality, this happens when a player who is a Duke is going on vacation or is otherwise going to be out-of-touch with the game for a short period of time.

Stewards have all of the powers of Dukes for the duration of their term, except that they cannot name an heir.

Emperor (Kaiser)

The Holy Roman Emperor is the supreme head of the Empire. It is a hereditary position. (Note: This is not historical, but there’s no way to change this in-game.) While the Emperor is theoretically the most powerful man in the entire Empire, in the KOTR game he plays a more subtle role. The Emperor gains an influence bonus equal to his authority during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

First, the Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet. It is his job to maintain order in the Diet and ensure that it runs smoothly. If there is a dispute about the Game Rules, the Emperor will make the final decision about the proper manner to follow the Rules.

Second, the Emperor does not belong to any of the Ducal Houses. Upon inheriting the throne, they leave their old House for good and lose any other titles (Elector, Count, Duke) that they might have. The Emperor is expected to act for the good of the Empire, rather than an individual House. While Emperors are expected to be impartial, they will certainly have strong opinions about what is best for the Empire. This may in turn result in them siding with Houses that support their decisions and working against Houses that they believe are hurting the Empire.

Third, Emperors allocate newly captured provinces to the Ducal Houses. When a province is captured, it comes under the direct control of the Emperor, who can control them in the same manner that the Dukes and the Counts can control their own lands. The Emperor may allocate any of his lands to any of the Ducal Houses. Once allocated, they cannot ever be returned to the Emperor. House provinces where are re-taken after being occupied by an enemy do not count as being “captured.”

Fourth, Emperors decide which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.

Finally, Emperors can automatically assume the position of Chancellor for the first term after they are crowned. This power is not subject to Diet vote and no one can run against them. However, the Emperor still has the limitations of Chancellor while in office, which means he can be impeached by the Diet in exceptional circumstances. Any further attempts by the Emperor to be Chancellor must go through the normal election process.

Prince (Prinz)

The Prince is a largely unimportant role, significant mainly because he is the heir to the throne and will become the next Emperor. Unlike the title of Emperor, the title of Prince is added in addition to any other titles the player holds. This gives the player a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. The Prince’s only duty is to preside over the Diet when the Emperor is absent.

There is no control over who becomes the new Prince once the current one assumes the throne. Like with the Emperor, this is a limitation imposed on us by the game itself. With luck, the role will only fall on players who seek to be active in the game. (*cross your fingers!*)

In practical terms, players must always remember that the Prince will inherit the throne, thus gaining power over the Houses through his ability to allocate newly conquered provinces. If you make an enemy of the Prince, your House might find itself smaller than the others when he becomes Emperor.

Chancellor

The position of Chancellor is without a doubt the most important and powerful one in KOTR. In game terms, the Chancellor is the person who actually plays the M2TW game. Unlike the other positions, you shouldn’t think of the Chancellor in the sense of what he can do, but rather what he cannot do. He is essentially playing the single player M2TW campaign with the following restrictions:

The Chancellor must obey the Game Rules and Edicts that have been passed by the Diet. Failure to do so can lead to impeachment by the Diet.

The Chancellor decides whether buildings are to be constructed in all settlements. If a settlement has a build queue from a Count, Duke, or Emperor, then he must build the items on that list in the order listed. However, he does not have to build anything at all if he does not want to, he only has to follow the build queue if he does decide to build something. If a settlement has no build queue for whatever reason, the Chancellor can build whatever he likes.

The Chancellor moves the armies and hands out saved games to be played by the appropriate generals. He can fight battles that his avatar is commanding whenever he wants without pause, but must give other players 48 hours to fight their battles. If a player exceeds the time limit or if the battle is lead by a Captain or a general that is not represented by a player, the battle must be autoresolved. The only exception to the Chancellor’s control over the armies are the Household Armies. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Essentially everything else is free game. If there isn’t a Rule or Edict about it, the Chancellor can do whatever he wants. The Chancellor’s term last for 10 game turns (20 game years), but he can run for re-election if he wishes. In recognition for his contributions, the Chancellor gets a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor, even after he leaves office.


***************KOTR GAME RULES**************

Game settings

*MT2TW with the 1.3 patch
Kingdoms installs 1.3. If you do not have 1.3, there is a free patch you can download and install:
http://download.sega.com/u/med2/patch/1.3_retail/Medieval%20II_Update3_Compatibility_Patch_EFIGS.rar
You need to install this on top of 1.2.
*Hard campaigns, very hard battles.
*Large unit size.
*Battle timer on. Show CPU Moves, Manage all Settlements
Standard victory conditions (45 provinces, including Rome).

Charter Amendment 6.2: Medifix will no longer be used and in its stead, FactionHeir's trait and ancillary fixes will be implemented. He will also take full responsibility of any issues regarding these files, however unlikely these may be after extensive testing.

The only mod we will use is the trait and ancillary files created by factionheir, available to download at:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix129.zip

Charter Amendment CAE1.1: econ21 will be authorised to give AI factions extra florins; for example, by gifting them a lump sum every 10 turns or so.

To increase the difficulty, the AI will periodically be given money via the consol.

The console command to give 10000 florins to Hungary is:

add_money hungary, 10000

The list of major factions is:

england
france
spain
venice
sicily
milan
scotland
byzantium
russia
moors
turks
egypt
denmark
portugal
poland
hungary

The Mongols, Timurids and Aztecs may be included at a later stage.

Probably the best practice is to top up factions with less than 50k, at a rate of perhaps 10k per turn.



Hard restrictions on play: * only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.

How to play - detailed rules


1. The role of players.

1.1 Each player will roleplay an “elector” of the HRE. They must choose one of four noble houses to belong to. Players are born into a noble House. It is in their blood and cannot be changed. It is determined by which of the four lines on the family tree their avatar falls under (except for the three starter Generals, for whom it is determined by their initial geography). [Note - if avatars spawn disproportionately in certain Houses, Electors of one House may be offered an avatar of another, but then they effectively role-play a new character.]

Charter Amendment 9.2: Add to article 1.1:
In view of exceptional circumstances, the von Mahren family is allowed to join the House of Austria.

1.2 Over time, all players will be assigned an avatar (typically a general) by econ21 to represent them. They should roleplay their traits.

1.3 Players whose avatars lead in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved.

OOC Charter Amendment:
(a) Where there are multiple player controlled generals in a stack, then the player who plays out the battle is determined by who the computer designates is in command.
(b) An exception is that Household Armies (and the Army of Outremer) are always commanded by the designated Commander of said army.
(c) The commanding general may allow another player to fight a battle by mutual consent for OOC reasons.

1.4 Players whose avatars are Counts are entitled to set the taxes and build queue of that settlement. If anything is built in the settlement, it must be the first item on the build queue.
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 1: Amend 1.4 by adding: If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Chancellor can build what he likes. The Chancellor may upgrade a settlement at any time (ie upgrade the walls regardless of a build queue), unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the governor.

1.5 Each elector will periodically vote to elect a Chancellor (reigning player) of the HRE and on edicts to direct him.

1.6 Players are encouraged to stand for the post of Chancellor.

1.7 Players are encouraged to write in-character stories in the stories thread; to discuss matters of state in the Imperial Diet deliberations thread; to write-up battle reports; to PM each other in character for role-playing etc. [Note: when posting screenshots, we could keep them full size but put them under spoiler tags.]


2. The role of the Chancellor.

2.1 The Chancellor is much like the player of a solo M2TW campaign - he moves all the units and agents on the map; he decides all the buildings and which units/agents to be trained.

2.2 However, he delegates battles to the player whose general leads the HRE force. And he follows the build queues and tax policies of players with governors.

2.3 He also must obey Imperial edicts and the constitution (these rules) or face political consequences.

2.4 The Chancellor is elected every 10 turns. Incumbent Chancellors can run for re-election if they wish.

2.5 The Chancellor must appoint army commanders. He must maintain a list of who has what post and notify players if they are appointed or dismissed from a role.

2.6 Battles are only fought manually when commanded by a player controlled general who is an army commander. They are autoresolved in all other cases (e.g. captain-led armies).

Charter Amendment E2.1:
(a) If an Edict to impeach the Chancellor is passed with a 2/3 majority, he is removed from office immediately.
(b) After impeachment, a fresh election is held to elect a new Chancellor, although a Kaiser may also exercise his perogative to be Chancellor at that point.
(c) The Chancellor replacing an impeached Chancellor serves out the remainder of the impeached Chancellor's term.
(d) All edicts passed in the Diet that elected the impeached Chancellor remain valid, unless overturned by new Edicts at the Emergency Session that impeached him.
(e) An impeached chancellor is not granted the additional bonus to influence that an ex-chancellor would normally be given.

Charter Amendment 11.5: All cities must have their maximum amount of free upkeep militia within their walls all times, except when the militia is used to fight armies observed to be within the boundaries of their province.


3. The role of the Imperial Diet

3.1. The Imperial Diet will meet in session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each session lasts 3 days of real time.

3.2. At each session, nobles can propose edicts. These require two seconders to be put to the vote. Edicts are laws that direct what the Chancellor should do.

Charter Ammendment 5.2: Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. In the case where there are only 1 or 2 electors in total in a Duke's House, a House edict may still be put forward to the diet requiring only the number of possible seconding electors in the House as seconders.

3.3. Any declaration of war must be authorised by an Imperial edict. The Chancellor or any Duke is empowered to declare war on a non-allied army entering its lands.

Charter Amendment 10.2:
(a) No settlement will be captured without an Edict authorising its acquisition in advance.
(b) Captured settlements will be abandoned or given away unless, at the next Diet session, a Charter Amendment incorporates them formally as part of the Reich.
(c) The 33 existing provinces of the Reich are exempt from (a) and (b).
(d) This amendment overrides the constitutional right of Household Armies to conquer one neighbouring province.
Proposed: Kaiser Henry
Seconded: Conrad Salier, Ansehelm von Kastilien

Charter Amendment 12.1: The province of Bran is to be incorporated formally into the Holy Roman Empire.

Charter Amendment 12.8: Ajaccio and Cagliari are to be incorporated into the Reich. The Chancellor is directed to trade Cagliari to any foe if it can bring about a peace between our nations.

*3.4. The rules of the game can be changed by a Noble Charter Amendments (2/3 majority required) except those marked with a *.

3.5. Tied edicts fail. If contradictory edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority.

3.6. Edicts can only last for 10 turns.

3.7. Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

*3.8. The Chancellor can be impeached and removed from office by a 2/3 majority of the Imperial Diet.

3.9. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final. The Prince can preside in the absence of the Emperor. The Emperor can call an emergency session of the Imperial Diet - freeze the game - at will.
Charter Amendment 8.2: In addition to the Kaiser, an Emergency Session of the Diet may be called by the Prinz, or if three of the four House leaders (Dukes or Stewards) agree to do so.

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +6 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 4 points):
Duke: +3
King: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.

Charter Amendment 6.7: Any decision that would lead to the excommunication of the Reich has to be authorized by a Diet vote, requiring a 2/3 majority. In the event of a conflict, this Amendment supercedes Rule 3.3 and Charter Amendment 5.1.


4. The role of the four houses - Dukes and Counts

4.1 There will be four houses representing the four main branches of the family tree: Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). At the start of the game, Prince Henry is Duke of Swabia and Leopold is Duke of Austria. The Dukes of Franconia and Bavaria have not yet been spawned (they will be the two males who take positions under the Emperor in the family tree).

4.2 Bavaria and Franconia have no Duke yet, so there are Stewards to act in their place until them. Until there is a Duke, they receive the +2 influence of a Duke.

Charter Amendment 3.1: Stewards may bestow the rank of Count on nobles of their House. This Amendment does not give Stewards any other Ducal power, it does not give Stewards additional Influence, nor does it allow Stewards to be Counts themselves.

The Stewards themselves are not Counts. Like Otto in Innsbruck, they are just soldiers, self-made men of lesser station [think Denethor in Lord of the Rings]. They could be rewarded by being made a Count by their Duke when he spawns, though. And they could marry into the Royal line, potentially becoming the Duke themselves.

4.3 The Emperor controls the initial allocation of settlements (e.g. upon conquest). At the start of the game, we have:

Frankfurt - capital of Franconia, home of the Duke (TBC)
Stafen - capital of Swabia, home of the Duke (Prince Henry)
Nuremburg - capital of Bavaria, home of the Duke (TBC)
Innsbruck - second city of Bavaria
Vienna - capital of Austria, home of the Duke (Leopold)
Bologna - is not assigned to any house

4.4 Dukes can then grant a settlement to a player, making him Count of that settlement. The settlements remain nominally within the relevant Duchy. There are no Counts at the start of the game. Capitals of a House need no Counts and cannot be given to them - they belong to the Duke (or his Steward). The Emperor could allocate Bologna to a House at any time, but after that, it will permanently belong to that House. There is an expectation that Franconia will extend north, Swabia west, Bavaria south and Austria east but this should not be followed too rigidly - e.g. the Emperor does not have to give Bologna to Bavaria.

[Note: It is expected that settlements will not be gifted lightly by the Emperor and by Dukes/Stewards - they should be regarded as precious rewards. There is no particular value to settlements in themselves, however. Avatars will be assigned according to the family tree, so more settlements does not mean more family members in a House - nor does it raise influence (beyond the one-off +1 for being a Count). A player cannot be the Count of more than one settlement. Dukes can have more than one settlement not dispersed to counts (and given the ratio of settlements to generals in a game, this is inevitable), but this provides no particular benefits.]

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

4.6 Counts who are not the natural sons of a Duke (e.g. adoptees and sons in law) may be lose their titles at the whim of the Duke. They are referred to as bonded Counts and are expected to act according to the wishes of their Duke. Natural sons of a Duke may not lose their settlements - they are referred to as freehold Counts.

4.7 Dukes and Counts should name a successor, who will take over their titles and settlements when they die. If no successor is named, the oldest natural son inherits, (if none, oldest adopted son; if none again, then the oldest son-in-law).
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 2: Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.

4.8 Dukes are expected to guide their families for the good for their Duchies. Members of a house do not have to follow their Dukes in terms of politics. However, the Duke can make players a Count by giving them a settlement (granting them +1 influence). Only the Duke of your House (not another Duke) can make you a Count. Houses will not be the only division in the Diet - chivalry, piety, strategy and other factors may also divide players.

Charter Amendment 6.3: Dukes may bestow the title of Count on Electors without avatars.


5 The role of the Emperor and Prince

5.1 The Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet as in 3.9. He is the "chairman" of the HRE, as opposed to the Chancellor who is the "chief executive". He will keep order in the Diet and try to make things run smoothly.

5.2 Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.

5.3 The Emperor can allocate settlements to one of the Four Houses.

5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes.
Charter Amendment 11.7: The section of the Charter which currently reads "5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes" will be changed to the following: 5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes. However, if a rules dispute directly involves the Emperor, the four Dukes of the Realm (or their appointed deputies) will gather to assist the Emperor in clarifying the dispute. A simple vote among the Dukes would decide the dispute, with the Emperor having the tie-breaking vote.

5.5 The Prince succeeds the Emperor and can deputise in his absence.

Charter Amendment 11.2:The Prince is appointed by the Emperor upon his ascension to the throne. Should a Prince die a new heir has to be appointed immediately.[/i]

Charter Amendment 11.1: Whenever a large dispute arises over the legitamacy of one's succesion to a position of high power (Kaiser, King of Outremer, or Dukedom), a council shall be set forth to discuss the events and vote on who shal succede. Should the position of Kaiser be questioned, the four Dukes and the King of Outremer shall decide who is to become Kaiser. Should a Dukedom or the King of Outremer be under dispute, those not directly involved in the dispute shall be part of the council. In order for the council to be formed, at least one quarter of the voting power in the Reich is needed to for the council to be formed. Regarding the dukes, half of the voting period within the house is needed as the same with the King of Outremer which requires half of the crusader's votes.

5.6 Emperors do not belong to factions - if crowned, they leave their House and - if Duke - are replaced by their chosen successor. They are expected to act for the good of the Empire and be impartial, above petty regional politics.

5.7 The Emperor decides which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.


6. Armies and Battles

Rules 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 have been removed.

6.4 For field armies of seven or more units (including the general), the Chancellor must appoint an “army commander”. The army commander must be a “knight”. Army commanders are appointed for the duration of the Imperial Diet session (10 turn intervals). The post is expected to be rotating. Army commanders can decide what to do with prisoners after battle. They can be dismissed by Chancellors, but must be informed of this.

6.5 Avatars who take part in battles may be promoted to “knights” by the army commander. Typically, this will involve the avatar’s bodyguard fighting honourably in a battle. The Emperor, Prince and four Dukes begin the game knighted.

6.6 The title of Field Marshall shall be given to the commanders of the Household Armies for the duration of their command.
Charter Amendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed.

Charter Amendment 5.1: Each Duchy shall have a Household Army with which to defend its territories. The Household Army will be governed by the following clauses:

1) The Household Army may not be removed from the House’s provinces without the permission of the Duke.
2) The Duke will determine where the Household Army is to be garrisoned. This location can be changed at any time, so long as the Duke informs the Chancellor of the move. The Chancellor will not remove the Household Army from the garrison without the Duke’s permission, except as required to fulfill Clause 4.
3) The Duke will determine who commands the Household Army.
4) At the beginning of each Diet session the Duke may assign general orders to the Household Army, which are to be carried out by the Chancellor. Between Diet sessions, any additional orders submitted by Dukes are to be implemented only at the Chancellor's discretion. The Duke may select one of the following Orders: (1) attack any rebel force in House territory, (2) attack any hostile force in House territory, including other factions, (3) attack any foreign or rebel army in House territory, including neutral (but not allied or crusading) factions, (4) temporary assignment to another House, (5) assignment to offensive duties. If Order (4) is chosen, the Duke may determine the time limit of the temporary assignment and the commanding general, but all other decisions are made by the Duke of the receiving house. When the time limit expires, the Household Army must be immediately returned to House lands, no matter what other circumstances occur, unless the Duke agrees otherwise. If Order (5) is chosen, the Duke may specify an enemy settlement or army as the objective and the commanding general. The settlement or army must be in a province that borders the House and the Reich must already be at war with the target. All other decisions are made by the Chancellor. The Duke may recall the Household Army from offensive duties at any time and for any reason.
5) The Household Army will consist of a minimum of 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. The Household Army will ideally consist of 4 infantry regiments, 3 ranged regiments, and 2 cavalry regiments. For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments. All regiments must be professional soldiers, not militia.
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
7) The Chancellor will attempt to maintain the Household Armies at full strength, with the highest quality regiments available.
8) In emergencies, the Chancellor may detach any units in excess of the minimum strength level for use elsewhere. The Chancellor may not reduce a Household Army below the minimum strength level without the permission of the Duke.
9) If the Imperial Treasury cannot support all Household Armies at minimum strength, the Chancellor must consult with the Dukes and receive their permission to reduce the Household Armies in such a way as to eliminate the deficit.
10) The Imperial Diet may temporarily remove any or all of these rules by a simple majority vote. The temporary period will last no longer than 10 turns.

Charter Amendment 12.6: (1) Each House will have TWO standing Household Armies. They will operate according to CA5.1 in all respects, but have separate commanders appointed by the Duke.
(2) Outremer will have two standing armies. They will operate in accordance with CA9.1, but have separate commanders appointed by the King.
(3) The Kaiser and Prinz will each command standing Imperial armies, of the guideline size given in CA5.1. The Kaiser and Prinz can each give orders for their army during full Diet sessions. They are expected to personally command their own armies but can nominate a replacement commander at any time if they are too busy attending to civil matters. The Chancellor and the Kaiser/Prinz are expected to liase closely over the use of the deployment of the Kaiser/Prinz's army.


7. Crusades and missions.

7.1 The Chancellor must endeavour to follow missions from the Pope and Council of Nobles, unless exempted by the Diet. Missions from guilds and foreign powers are optional.

7.2 Crusades must be authorised by the Diet, unless announced by another faction.

7.3 When a crusade is called, the Chancellor must ask all generals if they wish to join. He must include at least three volunteers who reply within 48 hours. If there are more than three, he must pick the three most pious. However, he can decline a volunteer if that would usurp his pick of army commander. If the AI calls a crusade, the Chancellor can choose not to follow it, even if generals wish to join - but he must still notify them immediately of the call and get their view on whether they would like to join (were he to follow the call).

Charter Amendment 9.1:

The Charter of the Kingdom of Outremer

1. The Kingdom of Outremer will consist of Antioch, Acre, Adana, Aleppo, Edessa and Damascus.

2. The Kingdom of Outremer is an integral part of the Reich. It is not a fifth House.

3. The function of the Kingdom is defensive: to safeguard Jerusalem and protect the gateway to Christendom

4. The Kingdom will be overseen by a King of Outremer, who will be appointed by the Emperor at each full Diet session. The King will temporarily renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his appointment (e.g. if Duke, must appoint a Steward). The King of Outremer may propose up to 3 personal Edicts during each Diet session, but 2 must specifically deal with Outremer affairs. (Stricken portion overridden by Kaiser due to conflict with CA11.3.

5. The King will command a Household Army, both acting according to Charter Amendment 5.2 (with the King assuming the role of “Duke”). He may delegate the day to day command of the Army (assign other generals to lead it in battle). However, contrary to CA5.1, to be in accordance with article (1), the Army may not be used to permanently conquer neighbouring provinces (recapturing Christian settlements taken by non-Christians and returning them to their original owners would be allowed).

6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The Dukes and the Emperor will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count which are allocated to their control.

7. Both the King and Crusading Counts must be physically located outside Europe for the duration of their appointments.

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia. Antioch will be the capital of Outremer and an Imperial province governed by the King of Outremer. Edessa will also be an Imperial province, governed by a Count chosen by the King of Outremer. The Crusading Count for a settlement must come from the appropriate House. They will gain +1 influence, but only if they are not already a Count in their Duchy, and only for the Diet session that marks their appointment. The cap of 6 influence for all but the Emperor remains.

Charter Amendment 11.3: The King of Outremer is allowed to propose three Edicts (or Charter Amendments) per Diet Session. Prior to being tabled in the Diet, these must be seconded by two Crusader Counts in the Council of Crusaders.

Charter Amendment 11.6: The position of King of Outremer is appointed by the emperor. This appointment lasts for the duration of the emperors reign or the Kings lifetime, whichever is shorter. The King of Outremer is permitted to resign, if the emperor is willing to accept the resignation, upon which a new King is appointed by the emperor. If the King of Outremer is deemed incapable of the assignment, he may be impeached by the emperor and 2 Dukes.

8. Historical armies

Only historical armies can fight battles (ahistorical stacks can be used for transport).

No more than half an army can be mercenary. Crusader mercenaries (crusader sergeants, crusader knights, pilgrims, fanatics) can count as natives.

Revised maxima for each unit type by number of units in stack

3^Type|1-5|6-10|11-15|16+
7^Generals|2|2|2|2
7^Knights|2|4|6|8
7^Cavalry|2|4|6|8
7^Missile inf|2|3|4|6
7^Elite inf|2|3|4|6
7^Other foot|Any|Any|Any|Any
7^Artillery|1|2|3|4


Crusades are exempt from restrictions on the number of generals.

Unit type definitions:
- Knights: Dismtd Feudal knights; Dismtd Imperial knights; Dismtd Gothic knights; Mailed knights; Feudal knights; Imperial knights; Teutonic knights; General’s bodyguard; Gothic knights; plus any mercenary knights or equivalent heavy cavalry.
- Cavalry: Any mounted knights plus non-knightly cavalry (Mounted crossbowmen ; Reiters; Merchant cavalry; Mounted sergeants, Turcomans etc)
-Foot missiles: Peasant archers; Peasant crossbowmen; Crossbow militia; Pavisse crossbowmen; Arquebusiers; Handgunners etc
-Elite infantry: Zweihander; Forlorn Hope; Landsknechts; dismounted knights and equivalent mercs - e.g. Galllowglass
-Other foot: Peasants; Town militia; Halberd militia; Spear militia; Sergeant spearmen; Armoured spearmen; Crusader sergeants; Pike militia

Here's the old german titles of nobility and our equivalents:

Political
Elector = Kurfurst
Count = Graf
Duke = Herzog
Prince = Prinz
Emperor = Kaiser

Military
Knight = Ritter
Field Marshal = Generalfeldmarshal

TinCow
11-17-2007, 21:51
I thought I fought the first full gold stack?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1735155&postcount=175

That was triple bronze, not triple gold, and they only had level 1 armor. My 'gold' stacks are triple gold and maxed out armor for every unit. That's not to say your victory was a minor thing. I was very impressed by it.

FactionHeir
11-17-2007, 22:02
I thought Arnold fought a triple gold before? I may be mistaken though.

TinCow
11-17-2007, 22:04
Er... yes, he did. I seem to be forgetting a lot of stuff like that lately.

FactionHeir
11-17-2007, 22:06
Happens when a turn lasts a week :grin2:

Btw, if you were to move Lothar inside Milan all by himself, it would be suicide I think. If you move him in with an army, you probably could win.

econ21
11-17-2007, 22:08
That was triple bronze, not triple gold...

That fish I caught was this |------------------------------------| long! :2thumbsup:

How embarassing. :embarassed:

OK, I have all orders in for turn 6 at Bern. No subsequent changes, clarifications or amendments will be considered. With some trepidation, I am going to try to resolve them this evening. But it won't be quick.

I can reveal, however, that for the third consecutive turn in a row, GeneralHankerchief's cavalry failed to obey orders. :wall: After his experience with Publius Laevinius at the Battle of Rome, he has my commiserations.

Stuperman
11-17-2007, 22:12
Thank you TC and Econ, the battle of bern was an awful lot of fun, Knowing that I was expendable made to a little easier to fight too.

FactionHeir
11-17-2007, 22:12
I can reveal, however, that for the third consecutive turn in a row, GeneralHankerchief's cavalry failed to obey orders. :wall: After his experience with Publius Laevinius at the Battle of Rome, he has my commiserations.

Phew. I guess that balances out with my low rolls during the econ-cataclysm turns :grin2:
GH should still be happy though. His army will majorly benefit from the +4xp boost (most of his are agrren) while Hans' army (a third is already gold) won't. So he'll not only have higher morale but also higher stats.

gibsonsg91921
11-17-2007, 22:41
i might make a hugo merode thing in the wiki

edit: good luck ferret! if dieter dies, that could be really annoying for franconia haha. most interesting of all, that might make jan von hamburg the heir, unless i dieter von kassel 'er.

Zim
11-17-2007, 22:47
:2thumbsup: Wow! I think the Battle of Bern has been more exciting than any sporting event I've seen (well, maybe excepting when the Red Socks won their first World Series in 80+ years)!

Stuperman
11-17-2007, 22:52
go right ahead

AussieGiant
11-17-2007, 23:10
Alright then fella's that it for me for the next 4 weeks in my Full Duty capacity.

I head to Tokyo Sunday morning so OverKnight will fight my battles for the next four weeks.

I'll be back on line on Monday afternoon for a little while and then full time on Tuesday again. I'll be GMT +9 so my usual rhythm will be out for responding to what ever is going on.

I'll up date the Duty Roster and speak to you all in a little while.

Have a great weekend guy's.

Cheers
AG

FactionHeir
11-17-2007, 23:42
Have fun AG, maybe you'll get yourself a capable laptop over there :2thumbsup:

gibsonsg91921
11-18-2007, 01:02
status on peters battle: i couldnt fight it last night or tonight cuz im out with my girlfriend, but tomorrow im wide open so i hopefully can get to 'er then

im still accepting offers to fight it tomorrow just in case i cant make it.

econ21
11-18-2007, 01:09
Gibson - we agreed not to use proxies unless people were going away for several weeks. By the rules, you should fight it yourself, autoresolve or not fight at all (if that is possible option).

TinCow can overrule the rules, though, so it is his call.

GeneralHankerchief
11-18-2007, 01:20
Oh... my... God...

I was actually thinking of having Dietrich personally "escort" the cavalry to this turn's destination but then thought better of it, thinking "Nahh, there's no way they'll disobey three turns in a row."

...

*#%!

econ21
11-18-2007, 01:33
I hope to post the final feedback on the Battle of Bern in a few minutes. :drama1:

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 01:33
Why final? Did Dietrich die?

GeneralHankerchief
11-18-2007, 01:34
Not Dietrich.

Sorry FH.

-edit- Well, maybe Dietrich. I expect you'll see shortly.

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 01:37
Ah, Servius? :wink:

GeneralHankerchief
11-18-2007, 01:38
I hope I hope I hope.

econ, check your PMs, I made a mistake.

econ21
11-18-2007, 02:26
Apologies to the Battle of Bern participants for the brutality of its ending. I feel like I have just sat through a video nasty. :scared: :hide:

I'm going to bed. Tomorrow, I will merge player PM orders with the Battle of Bern thread so that people can see what led to the outcome.

GeneralHankerchief
11-18-2007, 02:27
It's quite all right.

It seems rather... fitting.

Of course, now we have to worry about the minor problem of finding six new avatars. :laugh4:

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 02:39
Battle over, everyone dies? :laugh4:
Didn't quite expect that.

Poor Jan though. Dies even though supported by so many infantry. Would have thought he made it out alive.

I guess 27 hp don't protect from Dietrich's sword either. But then, I was also surprised to see a Teuton kill someone who raises a white flag. Considering he pulverized Dietrich's head, can we even be sure that this was Dietrich?

Now, it seems Luther got away (unless the Teuton's noticed him disappear or some of Hans' retinue are still alive and realize the purpose of taking Bern with Dietrich and Luther inside). Let's see for how long.

TC said the winner of the Bern battle gets to pacify the region. Loyalists won, but no one to lead an army :bounce:

Cecil XIX
11-18-2007, 03:01
Sheesh, what a sad ending.

It occurred to me that if Sigismund was still alive, he would probably curse Jan for throwing away his life so casually. The irony of this is not lost upon me.

GeneralHankerchief
11-18-2007, 03:22
I guess the official outcome is "really bloody draw"?

Northnovas
11-18-2007, 03:30
I guess the official outcome is "really bloody draw"?

I would have to agree when you sum it all up. Wow what a battle!
Nice work econ!:2thumbsup:

TinCow
11-18-2007, 04:47
A very interesting result, and a disasterous one for Swabia. With no one alive to pacify the provinces, they will be ravaged over the next few years.

Reverend Joe
11-18-2007, 04:49
Oh, wow...

I've been following this one for a while (since sometime before the Cataclysm) and Jan von Hamburg's death is really sad. It's like watching a miniseries and your favorite character dies.

Jan always seemed to be the one character with the most guts. When most everyone else played it safe most of the time, Jan put his balls on the anvil turn after turn, along with der Kaiser and Matthias. He was also arguably the most noble character in the entire Reich; I don't even normally like strongly religious characters, but Jan seemed to stand out so well in an age of strife and backstabbing.

My one major disappointment was that Jan abandoned Outremer so unexpectedly. It really marred the flawless appearance of his character. I would love to pick this guy's brain, to find out his motives, and how involved he was, if at all, in secret dealings.

...You don't happen to have it preserved do you? :devilish:

Anyway, thanks for the fun, Privateerkev.

Privateerkev
11-18-2007, 05:53
First off, I want to congratulate Econ on one heck of a battle. We might have given the orders, but he did all the work. :bow:

Next, I want to thank GH, FH, and SM for playing a great battle and making it such a close fight. This was by far the most fun I've had in a game that has been really fun.

As for Jan's death, at least he went out the way he wanted to. I wasn't trying to suicide my avatar but I stopped caring if he died, as long as it was in a blaze of glory. If his death could help tip the battle, then I told Econ to do it. (I was the one that picked "fight to the death" option.) Jan didn't know if Dietrich was going to come back to the town square so he needed to take it and fast. I've always played him "balls to the walls" because of his courage traits so I made no exception in this case. Hence why he charged in first into the square. I didn't know which of his infantry would be able to make it in time since they had to fight on the walls first. So I simply could not take the chance of having Dietrich reinforcing the square before the Crusaders got there.

As for FH's comment about a Teuton skewering a fallen man, consider this. Jan had his Teutonic Knight Max join the Teuton regiment in order to give a letter to Hans. (Also I wanted Max to survive so I can use him later.) I'll probably claim Max killed Dietrich if Econ has no objections.

As for my next avatar, I would like to take Andreas von Hamburg (Jan's son) when he comes of age. In the meantime, I would like to be a generic Franconian elector (no avatar). I'll play Alfgarda von Hamburg (Jan's wife) until Andreas grows up. As long as Econ rules that a woman can serve in the Diet. Though she was the Queen of Outremer and the wife of a mid-level noble so it is plausible. If Clare (Jan's daughter) marries an avatar that looks good, I might take him instead.

I'm worn out and busy from school so I don't mind sitting out the rest of the cataclysm with no avatar.

I wonder how the Kaiser is going to take this. His brother and best friend were both killed. It will be interesting to see what happens when he lands. :yes:

Reverend Gonzo: Thanks! :2thumbsup: It's always nice to see someone enjoy your work. As for Jan being brave, there is a fine line between bravery and stupidity. :yes: I'm not sure if Jan did more harm than good over the course of his life but he did mean well. :D If you want to know anything, you are more than welcome to shoot me a PM with your questions. I won't comment on some of the current political dealings though because they involve avatars that are still alive.

gibsonsg91921
11-18-2007, 05:55
well, zirn offered to fight it, but if thats not gonna happen, i could try to fight it tomorrow or autoresolve it.

Zim
11-18-2007, 05:55
~:mecry: :jawdrop: Such a sad and surprising ending to the battle of Bern. I wonder what will happen to Swabia now?

gibsonsg91921
11-18-2007, 05:58
looks like the principality wins?

GeneralHankerchief
11-18-2007, 05:59
looks like the principality wins?

Heh, there we go.

The Battle of Bern was won by Wolfgang Hummel. :laugh4:

Privateerkev
11-18-2007, 06:03
Heh, there we go.

The Battle of Bern was won by Wolfgang Hummel. :laugh4:

A pretty good strategy if you ask me.

Sit back and survive while your competition kills each other. :yes:

Also, I wouldn't want to be Athawolf right now...

gibsonsg91921
11-18-2007, 06:05
athalwolf and wolfgang are both in no position to attack each other. but i guess athalwolf inherits the duchy...

Zim
11-18-2007, 06:15
Doesn't Hummel have a decent army at the moment, unlike von Salza(who will have the greater resources)? I get the feeling things will come to a head soon.

Warluster
11-18-2007, 06:22
Would've been nice if someone of the loyallist survived... at least the rebellion down south is practilly dead.

EDIT: Forgot to thank Econ and players for such a great battle, sad ending.

GeneralHankerchief
11-18-2007, 06:26
Well, PK posted his general comments (as did FH) so I should too.

First of all, thanks to Stuperman, FH, PK, and of course, econ, for making the battle great.

Second of all... wow, just wow. I highly look forward the posting of all the orders PMs to get a general idea of what everyone's strategy was. I know there were some moments when I was torn about what to do (in case the bit in the Stories Thread didn't give you the hint :tongue:) and others when I was angry about econ and his dreaded dice.

Thirdly, the end. FH, I hope you're not too mad about me executing Hans. I did have a decision but I did kind of want to avenge the death of Jens Hummel all those years ago and if I didn't kill you I was afraid the battle would have been a total loss. I was actually banking on being taken prisoner, by men under the command of Jan the Merciful and all. Heh.

Fourthly... moving on. I would like to take Hermann Steffen (Lothar's eldest son) when he comes of age. This guy will be #5 and I hope he lives longer than the most recent two. :laugh4: I could take a recruitable general but I don't want to oversaturate the game with those guys and this will be my self-imposed punishment for not managing the Cataclysm and battle better. The rest of you guys who are still living, good luck.

Finally, this is my second "Epic Civil War PvP Battle" and I suppose that makes me the resident authority on the things (although Tamur is up there too). With that in mind, I advise you guys not to get in these things as they're pretty much only good for rapidly reducing the strength of armies that could be put to much better use. When looking at the results of all the PvP battles, the conclusion seems to be that unless you have killer tactics at your disposal the result will either be a bloody draw (Bern) or depend on who has the numerical edge (Rome). That said, I'd love to get in another one but not until the end of next PBM. Heh.

Privateerkev
11-18-2007, 06:35
I was actually banking on being taken prisoner, by men under the command of Jan the Merciful and all. Heh.

Ironically, if Jan was alive, he would have ordered Dassel and Luther to be spared. (He was the "merciful" after all.) But, since Jan was killed, Econ must have decided for himself that Jan's men would kill Dassel. Jan only sent those 4 cav regiments to help Hans and give him a letter. I had no idea they would be used to deliver capital punishment. I can't wait to hear Econ's take on the battle. :yes:

*edit*

I realize that might read as a complaint. It isn't. I loved the ending. I just didn't expect it except for the possibility of Jan dying.

TinCow
11-18-2007, 07:40
Gibson - we agreed not to use proxies unless people were going away for several weeks. By the rules, you should fight it yourself, autoresolve or not fight at all (if that is possible option).

TinCow can overrule the rules, though, so it is his call.

Ack, I forgot about that. I previously told gibsonsg91921 that I would fight the battle for him if he wasn't able. The no-proxies rule completely slipped my mind. I'll abide by it in the future, but since I already told gibsonsg91921 that he could have a sub (me) I don't want to go back on my word. Zim has apparently requested to be the sub and gibson has agreed, so that is fine. After this I will not allow subs for short absences.

Of course, if gibson can fight the battle himself, that would be for the best.

Stuperman
11-18-2007, 07:41
I'd also like to thank FH, GH, PK, and of course econ. It was an awesome expierence, and has cool political implacations. I'd love to try again if I have a chance.

Zim
11-18-2007, 09:11
Alright, Gibson has communicated to me that if I get permission from Tincow (done, thank you TC :bow:) and get a chance I should go ahead and take the save and finish the battle.

This is my first actual ingame action in KOTR so I'm a little mixed up about the procedure. I take it that the save in this post I linked is the most recent? And the pacification of rebels in his territory is the pending battle? So I just take that save, fight Peter's battle (taking screenshots), then upload it here in the OOC thread with the number at the ends added to?


https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1749438&postcount=589

Privateerkev
11-18-2007, 09:20
You pretty much got it. Just remember that the basic difference between this and the Kingdoms Hotseats, is that we say we're "taking the save" in here. If you don't say it, it could mess things up if someone else grabs it.

Other than that, you pretty much have it down. Except you don't have to take screenshots as long as you take down the important information and PM it to TC. The information he needs can be found here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1714961&postcount=297

Zim
11-18-2007, 09:31
Ok. I am taking this save, I believe it to be the most recent (correction if I am mistaken is welcome). I have a Sunday School teachers' meeting tomorrow after church, but it should end in the early afternoon(late evening today for those of you closer to GMT). After that, I'll get to my gaming computer asap, and play out the battle.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1330-12.zip

Thanks for the info, PK. I wouldn't have known all of that information was neccessary, and piecing it together from screenshots would have taken quite some time.

I'm guessing that another difference between this and say, a hotseat game, is that I am completely limited to the soldiers in Herr Peter's stack(or settlement if he is in one)?

Privateerkev
11-18-2007, 09:35
Ah, there is another difference. Don't take the save unless your gonna fight it now and upload the new one in a couple hours. Unless no one else is waiting for it.

Zim
11-18-2007, 09:41
In that case, I am not taking the save. Not until tomorrow when I can fight the battle right away, at least.

I'm glad I'm figuring these things out now, rather than later on when I could make a mess of things. :clown:

econ21
11-18-2007, 10:16
I am taking the save, to try and represent the result at Bern.

If you look at the final jpg, the battle was definitely a loyalist victory. Pretty much the entire Catholic Crusader Army is left standing, with Bern under its control. But I just could not believe what happened to all the army leaders in turn 6 (until turn 5, I thought all of them would make it - Dietrich has an exit road and the loyalists seemed in little danger).

I will merge the orders with the Battle thread to give more insight into the mechanics behind it.

In this thread, we have instructions from GH and PK about their next avatar - they seem fine to me. For Factionheir, I assume he will want to take Ehrhart Ruppel?

After the bloodbath at Bern, Elberhard is going to try to make some kind of initiative to stop this Swabian conflict. I aim to post that today.

I will liase with TinCow about what to do with the parts of Swabia that Hans controlled. But these are my thoughts. Hans died with no heir, so if there were a Diet, succession would be decided by a Council. However, with no Diet, Elberhard is going to appoint von Salza - the only remaining player controlled loyalist - a Duke for now. What happens in the longer term will be left vague, as part of the initiative Elberhard will start. Given the loyalist victory at Bern, I think it appropriate that Hans' territories and men pass over to the new Duke without a hitch. Dietrich's rebellion is over and Hummel's Principality is quite far away and depleted. Von Salza may give Ehrhart Ruppel whatever Counties or armies he sees fit.

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 10:47
During the battle deployment, Hans actually sent an IC letter to Salza an appointed him his heir in case he died during the battle, so there shouldn't be a problem.

Oh, and I need to PM you still econ.

econ21
11-18-2007, 10:53
I have merged the orders with the feedback in the Battle of Bern thread.

Privateerkev
11-18-2007, 11:26
wow...

Reading the Bern thread makes it all make sense. Now I see why the communication has to go through Econ. It really helped make the battle interesting to have more realistic communication.

So, Dassel killed Hans because he thought he could get away with it? He assumed Jan was alive and took Bern, therefore he thought he could take advantage of Jan's merciful reputation? But what Dassel didn't know, was that Jan was dead and his army had taken the city without him. So the Teutonic knights took it upon themselves to execute Dassel.

awesome... :2thumbsup:

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 11:30
You truly had me burst out laughing and almost fall of my chair with your fox/scorpion story econ!!! :laugh4:

econ21
11-18-2007, 11:35
You truly had me burst out laughing and almost fall of my chair with your fox/scorpion story econ!!!

I was at school when I first heard that story. It was told by a Zionist speaker who was talking to the Sixth Form about Israel and the Middle East. I asked him a question, basically saying Israel should give land for peace. He replied with this story.

The ending was, of course, "This is the Middle East".

For a long time, I struggled to understand the story. It seemed silly and did not make sense to my rational mind. But I get it now.

OverKnight
11-18-2007, 11:38
The Battle of Bern was brutal. The death of all four leaders underscores the tragedy of the religious strife that they helped to inflame throughout the Reich. Each side now has it share of martyrs. One could predict a future where Lutherans and Catholics kill each other in the name of their fallen heroes for the next millennia.

Of course this doesn't parallel real history at all, nope. :laugh4:

I want to add my kudos to all the people involved, a compelling action.

I can only imagine what the fallout will be.

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 11:42
The fallout will be more wives for the living bachelors (if we don't lose too many regions) :grin2:

Very true indeed RE the middle east. But this isn't the backroom, so I won't be posting too much about it. Just that neither side will stop while the other one is still breathing, or gives land.

econ21
11-18-2007, 12:19
Post-Bern save:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1330-13.zip

I rolled for each loyalist unit eliminated in the battle. On a roll of "6", they come back - representing the wounded, the lost etc. Three of Hans' regiments came back - two knights and a sergeant. The survival of the knights could be interpreted as the hardcore veterans of the loyalist victory.

I disbanded all the rebels - after the Flemish crossroads, I figured the loyalists would be leery of accepting any "turncoat" regiments. However, I did keep the bombard - as presumably, the loyalists could seize it and recrew it with reliable men.

All three dead generals had unpleasant vacations on Crete.

Factionheir asked me to save the Holy Grail, by sending it to Elberhard or Ruppel. I figure the Catholic crusaders will have been careful with it.I have passed it on to Elberhard. It seems one of the most useful relics (increasing healing rates), so I will make sure it does not die with Elberhard - perhaps passing it on from Kaiser to Kaiser?

TinCow can overrule any of these decisions.

deguerra
11-18-2007, 12:40
hey guys,

not to be naggy :D, but whats the news on me getting a character? Take my insolent impatience as a compliment regarding the awesomeness of this game. that being said, if you still need some time to think about it, no worries.

deguerra

Ferret
11-18-2007, 12:54
characters take an in-game turn to recruit and there are still a few more battles to be fought this turn so you should have one soon.

Oh and great stuff on the battle of Bern, it's gonna be hard RPing how Dieter will take this.

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 13:05
Have him chase Luther :grin2:

Part 1 and 2 of the story are up. Part 3 and 4 (quite a bit shorter) to follow in a few minutes.

[edit]
All parts are up.

econ21
11-18-2007, 14:02
Regarding Elberhard's post in the IMS: it is very much an in character thing. He has the grand total of 2 authority, so if players want to ignore it and continue fighting, be my guest. OOC I will help implement such PvP battles as before. Elberhard will not be happy, though.

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 14:06
If Authority is any indicator, people won't stop. Hans' 6 Influence (and about 5 or so Authority) didn't stop anyone either :yes:

But I think people will stop because no-one wants to have a character dislike you, especially if that character is the gamemaster's avatar (not that econ is that mean though) :evil:

econ21
11-18-2007, 16:29
But I think people will stop because no-one wants to have a character dislike you, especially if that character is the gamemaster's avatar

That's why I made my last post - I don't want anyone stop fighting just because the gamemaster's avatar says so. We have had two new players join Hummel and they may be chewing at the bit to continue the civil war. Ignoramus may also want to take advantage of Bern. That's fine.

Elberhard's proclamation is just in character stuff - he would try to call a pause at this point (he could not do so before, as Hans had the harsh justice trait and so wanted to prosecute the civil war).

The proclamation is also aimed at Prague, where another internal conflict is brewing.

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 16:41
Ah, so you want people to disobey Elberhard? It would portray his low authority nicely, although that may impact how he is viewed at the next diet.
Its actually a major handicap to be emperor and only have 2 authority, compared to Heinrich and Henry, eh? ~:)

TinCow
11-18-2007, 17:00
I am going to advance to 1332 this evening, with the 1332 report done by Monday evening. Thus, I am setting a HARD DEADLINE of 3pm EST TODAY for the remaining two battles. These are for Fritz von Kastilien (Tamur) and Péter von Kastilien (gibsonsg91921). There has been more than enough time for these to be fought before now and there will be no more extensions. See here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1749438&postcount=589) for details on the battles.

If Peter's is not done by 3pm, I will fight it myself, since I originally said I would. I will simply skip Fritz's battle and Stettin will fall.

Use this save: http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1330-13.zip

Keeping the game moving is important, especially since I expect a battle during the AI turn.

GeneralHankerchief
11-18-2007, 17:22
OverKnight, I was thinking that since so much was written about the Battle of Bern, it might be better organized if everything was listed in bullet points or something similar in the Histories Thread.

For example, there'd be the main Battle of Bern header complete with link and then under that:


Dietrich makes a decision (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1748928&postcount=223)
Jan prepares (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1749697&postcount=225)
A wife mourns (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1751008&postcount=227)
Lifeline (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1751153&postcount=230)
Elberhard reacts (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1751149&postcount=229)
Two (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1750936&postcount=226) stories (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1751127&postcount=228)

Zim
11-18-2007, 17:50
Gah! I read you loud and clear, TC. Taking the save now. I'm housesitting, but I can drive to the aprtment (ten minutes away) and fight the battle right away. :bow:


I am going to advance to 1332 this evening, with the 1332 report done by Monday evening. Thus, I am setting a HARD DEADLINE of 3pm EST TODAY for the remaining two battles. These are for Fritz von Kastilien (Tamur) and Péter von Kastilien (gibsonsg91921). There has been more than enough time for these to be fought before now and there will be no more extensions. See here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1749438&postcount=589) for details on the battles.

If Peter's is not done by 3pm, I will fight it myself, since I originally said I would. I will simply skip Fritz's battle and Stettin will fall.

Use this save: http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1330-13.zip

Keeping the game moving is important, especially since I expect a battle during the AI turn.

Zim
11-18-2007, 19:50
I'm sorry guys. I downloaded the save, stuck it on a thumb drive, and dashed to the apartment with my gaming computer. Fighting the battle was easy, but because of the crappy dial-up on my gaming computer I couldn't upload the new save (several tries with no success).

I can't make it back to the computer with the decent wireless until a good hour or two after Tincow's deadline (already late for church and the wife is getting madder).

Sorry again. :shame:

gibsonsg91921
11-18-2007, 20:06
im going to put myself on full-time reserve duty cuz i the time i have for battles is sporadic and unpredictable.

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 20:31
Zim, did you zip/rar the file before trying to upload? If you do, the save usually shrinks down to 736kb, and is easy to upload even if a slow connection.

GeneralHankerchief
11-18-2007, 21:13
Re-reading the epilogue of Bern, the final image I get of Dietrich is like when Kane is embracing the GDI Ion Cannon in Tiberian Dawn. Does this mean he'll reappear 30 years later to continue the war? :laugh4:

TinCow
11-18-2007, 21:39
Time is up, I'm taking the save.

TinCow
11-18-2007, 22:42
As expected, there is a battle on the AI turn.

Dieter Bresch (Elite Ferret) and Tancred von Tyrolia (Dutch_guy):

Magdeburg is being assaulted by the combined Polish armies. Dieter Bresch is trapped inside and must hold the walls and be victorious, or perish. Tancred von Tyrolia is nearby with a moderate sized army and can arrive as reinforcements. If Elite Ferret cannot or does not wish to fight the battle, it is acceptable for Dutch_guy to play it, as he is also involved.

Note: Tancred von Tyrolia shows up as reinforcements, but Dieter Bresch has a full unit roster. Thus, in order for Tancred to be in the battle from the beginning, he will have to be under AI control. Please note that if you do this, he has a very high chance of dying. The safer alternative is to have Tancred's army under human control, but doing so will not make his units available until some of Dieter's have been completely destroyed. I leave the choice up to whoever is fighting the battle.

The Org PBM Uploader is acting up again, so I used the alternative site. The save is:
http://www.mizus.com/files/pbm/kotr1330-14.zip

Technically I have to give 48 hours to fight this battle, but it would aid me very, very greatly if it could be completed before 6pm EST tomorrow, Monday, November 19th. If it is done by then, I should be able to get the 1332 report up by tomorrow night EST.

Also, to anyone else who downloads the save to look at the game, I have NOT implemented all of the 1330 orders yet, particularly the reinforcements in Frankfurt. I played around with the save a bit and if I did the changes before advancing the turn, the AI did some very annoying things, like break off the siege of Rheims and refuse to besiege Frankfurt. By implementing a few of the 1330 orders at the beginning of 1332, the AI acts a lot more rationally. Finally, I fought the battle for Peter, then reloaded and teleported the rebel army to Milan, where it will be needed in the future. I then simply disbanded 2 militia units and a depleted merc spearmen in Peter's army to simulate the casualties. Thank you for bearing with me while I try to manhandle the game into doing what it was never meant to do.

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 22:43
Re-reading the epilogue of Bern, the final image I get of Dietrich is like when Kane is embracing the GDI Ion Cannon in Tiberian Dawn. Does this mean he'll reappear 30 years later to continue the war? :laugh4:

Possible, although unlikely in 30, that Dietrich will reappear. We did have another von Kassel appear afterall.

gibsonsg91921
11-18-2007, 22:47
yeah, but he went off to the russians.

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 22:54
He left behind Dieter von Kassel though.

gibsonsg91921
11-18-2007, 23:05
yeah...

EF - good luck on magdeburg on the triple gold. if dieter and tancred both die, we're :skull: ed

Ferret
11-18-2007, 23:06
Taking the save.

I'll try to keep Tancred out of it, leaving him to the AI will make a very unhappy player I should think, hopefully the citadel will help me enough to win.

Tamur
11-18-2007, 23:11
hi all,

Thanks for the excellent writeup of the Bern battle, econ21. What a thrilling ending!

Sadly, I have to withdraw from the game. I'm obviously hamstringing Fritz with my life, which currently gives me about two hours a week to devote towards KotR. I spend most of that reading, and very little of it playing.

I'll continue to use my couple of hours a week to read though. The Diet session should be truly phenomenal.

Cheers,
Tamur

Privateerkev
11-18-2007, 23:17
Hi Tamur. Sorry to hear your leaving. Have you considered just taking a "generic elector" so you can keep voting and talking in the Diet? Just a thought. ^_^

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 23:22
Its almost looking as if Austria would be the most active house soon :grin:

Sorry to hear you will be leaving us Tamur! I suppose since one of the new ones will be joining Franconia, they could take Fritz?

Dutch_guy
11-18-2007, 23:33
Taking the save.

I'll try to keep Tancred out of it, leaving him to the AI will make a very unhappy player I should think, hopefully the citadel will help me enough to win.

Good, would hate to see a lone Tancred charge his mounted guard straight into a full stack of angry Poles.

:balloon2:

Ramses II CP
11-18-2007, 23:36
'One of the new ones' would be happy to serve Franconia in any capacity. You guys pick. It would certainly be more in context for me to take over an already present and older character, but I can't say I'm completely familiar with the flavor of Fritz's life.

I also want to say the battle of Bern seemed to come together perfectly from an outsider's perspective. Religious conflicts in history, especially those driven by strong personalities, so often result in immense slaughter and general loss of life that the way things worked out almost feels like the only way they could've ended.

:egypt:

Zim
11-18-2007, 23:51
Zim, did you zip/rar the file before trying to upload? If you do, the save usually shrinks down to 736kb, and is easy to upload even if a slow connection.

I did. It wasn't really the slowness of the connection(as crappy as it was, it should have taken less than a minute or so) but each time I'd try, after a little while, I'd get some white screen of death and it never uploaded.

I hate aol, but I can't complain too much since I get it for free from another person in the apartment.

Edit: Since the uploader was acting up for Tincow as well, I guess it wasn't my connection's fault. Ah well, too late now.

FactionHeir
11-18-2007, 23:53
TC mentioned that the uploader has been acting up a bit. How's mizus (the alternative uploader) working for you?

Zim
11-18-2007, 23:58
I haven't tried the alternative uploader yet, but given theat Tincow had problems with the normal one today, and I never had any before today, I'm guessing the alternative one will work fine for me.

Ferret
11-19-2007, 00:00
battle fought and new save uploaded:http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1332.rar

the triple gold stack didn't even move :(

https://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6364/kotrow3.th.jpg (https://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kotrow3.jpg)

oh and Polish dude is dead-you can't see that from the screeny.

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 00:06
Yeah, happens a lot with AI reinforcing armies in a siege. They tend to just get stuck and wait for the timer to run out (meaning they lose). I think you can usually nudge them by taking out some of their missile troops/artillery in melee, but that isn't always easy.

Ramses II CP
11-19-2007, 01:14
Often if you let them open the first gate the reinforcements will come rushing for it (And die in droves on the towers of course).

:egypt:

Ignoramus
11-19-2007, 01:27
*faints*

Swabia is doomed...

Stuperman
11-19-2007, 03:25
well, if althawolf can recall loyalist units from bern, I'd say he has a half decent army under his control.

TinCow
11-19-2007, 04:27
*faints*

Swabia is doomed...

Franconia and Bavaria aren't doing so well either. I took a gamble and sent Lothar to hold Milan with his army. I am now stuck and will have to face the gold stack when they assault. There's a huge difference between the 3 walls of a citadel and 1 wall of a city. :juggle2:

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 04:34
Franconia and Bavaria aren't doing so well either. I took a gamble and sent Lothar to hold Milan with his army. I am now stuck and will have to face the gold stack when they assault. There's a huge difference between the 3 walls of a citadel and 1 wall of a city. :juggle2:

Your not the only one who gambled with their avatar this turn. Your in good company. :yes:

Zim
11-19-2007, 06:19
I don't know about Deguerra, but after looking at the save and seeing all those horrible French and Danish armies in and around Swabia, I'm not sure I'm chomping at the bit for something that will lower my character's life expectancy even further. :clown:

Of course, it's up to Prinz Hummel and von Salza, not lowly grunts like my character. :sweatdrop:

P.S. Duchy of Flanders, Warluster?



That's why I made my last post - I don't want anyone stop fighting just because the gamemaster's avatar says so. We have had two new players join Hummel and they may be chewing at the bit to continue the civil war. Ignoramus may also want to take advantage of Bern. That's fine.

Elberhard's proclamation is just in character stuff - he would try to call a pause at this point (he could not do so before, as Hans had the harsh justice trait and so wanted to prosecute the civil war).

The proclamation is also aimed at Prague, where another internal conflict is brewing.

Ignoramus
11-19-2007, 08:04
Austria's gotten off lightly; they haven't even lost Budapest yet.

Warluster
11-19-2007, 08:42
P.S. Duchy of Flanders, Warluster?

Well seeing as it can't be Principility of Swabia, has to be something else. I've heard it called that a few times as before as well.

EDIT: Just remembered, I saw the name on a PM sent to me by someone.

Zim
11-19-2007, 09:22
I get the reasoning, I'm just a bit surprised. Giving it a name like that almost makes it sound more legitamate than if you had offered to keep theceasefire with, say, "the rebel Principality".

I really like the sound of it. The Duchy of Flanders :yes:


Well seeing as it can't be Principility of Swabia, has to be something else. I've heard it called that a few times as before as well.

econ21
11-19-2007, 11:05
I am sorry we are losing Tamur, but understand his reasons - thanks for making Fritz a vivid character!

Ramses II CP: a recruitable general was hired for you, but I think it would be much better if you took over Fritz as you agreed to. I know you wanted to play a loyalist, but reading Tamur's latest posts, it seems that the Lutheran firebrand is regretting his earlier excesses, so buckling down and serving loyally would be in character. Especially as his fellow rebel, Peter, is going to be made Prinz soon.

So Zim and Deguerra, you have the pick of the three spare avatars that were spawned last turn. I have updated the playlist to the best of my ability and entered the three as Swabians:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383081&postcount=1

I would you like you both to rank them in order of preference and I will assign them, giving first pick to Zim on a first come, first served basis. I need you both to make a choice asap or I will make it for you.

If you want to play a chivalrous character, you might put Ludwig Von Bohmen as your number 1. His stats will also give him extra influence in Diet votes.

Jan von der Pfalz has the highest command and is a blank slate as regards chivalry and dread (that choice tends to mean quite a lot in the KotR role-playing).

Jens Merode looks the least appealing character, but he shares his surname with Huho Merode, the slain general of the Lutheran Relief Army. So if you want a ready made backstory for why you are siding with Hummel vs the Swabian loyalists, put him number 1. He is also embarking on the dreadful path.

I have marked where the characters spawn in the table in the Count column, but they are not Counts of those places. It is just for information. TinCow can use the console to teleport you, so the location should not be important. Just because you start in Nuremburg, it does mean you will be out of things in Swabia - you can be moved over easily.

Also, just because Jan spawned in Bern, it does not mean he gets command of the loyalist army or Hans' treasury! I expect TC will move him out sharpish.

deguerra
11-19-2007, 11:34
1.Ludwig
2.Jan
3. Jens

for me thanks

econ21
11-19-2007, 11:41
Having looked at the savegame, I must say the cataclysm is working out just as we hoped. All the Houses, and Outremer, have been reduced considerably and the pressure the AI is putting us under is now palpable. :2thumbsup: I have some ideas for how we can maintain the challenge post-cataclysm and will post them soon.

One idea I would like to throw out about Swabia OOC is the following. The House is imploding and the AI is finally taking advantage of the internal divisions. The balance of forces between Hummel and the loyalists seems rather even, so a compromise seems possible. In the short term, a ceasefire or something would be enough. In the longer term, one possiblity is to keep Swabia whole but have a "third way" Duke - neither Hummel nor Von Salza. OOC, I would suggest Zim. I know from his PBMs that he is a reliable player who can organise things and keep active. I think OOC he would a good Duke. Coming in with a new avatar and fairly blank slate, he might be agreeable as a compromise figure. I am just mentioning it OOC, as my motivation is largely OOC. Both Ignoramus and von Salza get rather busy from time to time, frequently missing deadlines in PBMs. This hinders their OOC ability to take on a role such as Duke, plus their IC conflict makes that they would be willing to bow down to each other.

This is just a suggestion. A Duchy of Flanders would be a perfectly acceptable solution. I think the PBM is ready for a more "messy" allocation of provinces to Houses and indeed to weaken the four House structure. It is just that Hummel may well have to reconquer Flanders from the AI in order to get his fourth House and he may not have the resources to do so.

AussieGiant
11-19-2007, 11:45
9 months and 7 international flights have never seen so much going in!!!

I'm off line for about 40 hours and I'm still trying to work out what's just happened :-)

The battle at Bern by itself is indication enough that we have all done a great job in agreeing to artificially create this mess.

TinCow
11-19-2007, 12:56
I have marked where the characters spawn in the table in the Count column, but they are not Counts of those places. It is just for information. TinCow can use the console to teleport you, so the location should not be important. Just because you start in Nuremburg, it does mean you will be out of things in Swabia - you can be moved over easily.

Also, just because Jan spawned in Bern, it does not mean he gets command of the loyalist army or Hans' treasury! I expect TC will move him out sharpish.

Both of the Swabians will start in Antwerp, no matter who they are. Their location in the save right now is not important. They spawned in multiple places because I had to use Huge Cities that would not be besieged during the AI turn.

This is another problem that arises from looking at a save that is not remotely finalized.

Ramses II CP
11-19-2007, 14:29
Fritz it is! Contrition will be the order of the day. :yes:

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 15:20
Let me present an OOC defense of an Athawolf Duke. I agree that Warluster skips deadlines and I am sure Zim will be an active player. But...

1.) Warluster got screwed out of being Kaiser by a stray catapult shot. Holding out and being loyal to Hans was his shot at playing a Duke. He kept his end of the bargain IC so he is entitled to it IMHO.

2.) Zim is playing an RBG. Currently, RBG's can't be dukes because they are out of the family tree. On a strictly OOC level, I like this because it encourages more people to take avatars in the family tree. It is why I am staying in the family tree and I strongly suspect it is why GH is as well, claims of "self-punishment" not withstanding. It seems we're both trying to become Duke in our respective Houses.

The point is, a claim on a Dukeship is one of the few rewards left for staying in the family tree and keeping to the family tree is good for the game. While the RBG's are a nice "stop-gap" measure, the family tree provides some rich role-playing dynamics and family politics. Keeping Dukeships "in the family" is one of the few reasons to persuade people to wait around as a generic elector until their family tree avatar comes of age.

(Also treating RBG's unfairly could provide for some great drama later on. Men of a "lesser sort" overthrowing the nobility, in order to claim equal treatment, is an old tradition.) ^_^

Tamur
11-19-2007, 15:21
Contrition will be the order of the day.

Ha! Looking forward to that. He's been a bad boy :pirate2:

econ21
11-19-2007, 15:31
Let me present an OOC defense of an Athawolf Duke. ...

PK, those are good points. I was just throwing the idea out for Ignoramus and Warluster to think on. We can let the Swabians debate it IC. If they go for it, it may require a Charter Amendment (I had not thought about the Dukes must be on the family tree constraint). But then so would a number of other peace deals (eg a Duchy of Flanders).

TinCow
11-19-2007, 15:52
Currently, RBG's can't be dukes because they are out of the family tree.

I don't know where you're getting that from. I see nothing in the rules that restricts who can be Duke and who cannot.

Ferret
11-19-2007, 17:43
Yeah, happens a lot with AI reinforcing armies in a siege. They tend to just get stuck and wait for the timer to run out (meaning they lose). I think you can usually nudge them by taking out some of their missile troops/artillery in melee, but that isn't always easy.

I did actually sally to kill the men on the ram which ended up very messy as I couldn't get the gates to close again :wall: but I eventually killed all their infantry and then the rest of them just stood still. I also sent out a unit if crossbowmen which meant that one of their units came to sit in front of their towers but, good sport as I am :beam: , I abandoned the walls and sent out Dieter and his guard to get some experience.

Now the only problem is working out how Dieter will react to the death of Jan, i may have him sally out to his death or sneak away to exact revenge on Dietrich supporters, plenty of options :juggle2: .

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 17:50
I don't know where you're getting that from. I see nothing in the rules that restricts who can be Duke and who cannot.

It seems to be inherent in section 4. A holdover from the beginning of the game when Dietrich von Saxony, Maximillian Mandorf, and Otto von Kassel were Generals outside of the family tree.

4.1 There will be four houses representing the four main branches of the family tree: Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). At the start of the game, Prince Henry is Duke of Swabia and Leopold is Duke of Austria. The Dukes of Franconia and Bavaria have not yet been spawned (they will be the two males who take positions under the Emperor in the family tree).

4.2 Bavaria and Franconia have no Duke yet, so there are Stewards to act in their place until them. Until there is a Duke, they receive the +2 influence of a Duke.

Charter Amendment 3.1: Stewards may bestow the rank of Count on nobles of their House. This Amendment does not give Stewards any other Ducal power, it does not give Stewards additional Influence, nor does it allow Stewards to be Counts themselves.

The Stewards themselves are not Counts. Like Otto in Innsbruck, they are just soldiers, self-made men of lesser station [think Denethor in Lord of the Rings]. They could be rewarded by being made a Count by their Duke when he spawns, though. And they could marry into the Royal line, potentially becoming the Duke themselves.

Therefore, we seem to have a rule that says that a Duke can only come from the family tree. In my opinion, this is a good thing. We're roleplaying a system of fuedalism and limiting certain titles to "nobles" is part of that. I want us to treat the RBG's unfairly. RBG's are men of a "lesser sort" and are not eligible for certain titles/rights.

Now, RBG's can (and should) resent this and could band together to change the Charter. This has happened in history before. An overstretched empire needs to rely more and more on men from the lower classes. Those lower classes then agitate for more rights. Could lead to a revolution or at least legislative reform. Either way I think it would be fun! :yes:

Zim
11-19-2007, 17:58
Since Deguerra would like to play Ludwig, I'll take Jan von der Pfalz. His mid-level in everything stats make him seem like I could take him anywhere roleplaying.

I'll catch up on the rest of the thread right now, jus wanted to get that done quickly as Econ asked.

econ21
11-19-2007, 18:10
OK, so it is confirmed.

Ramses II CP takes on Fritz von Kastilien

Zim takes on Jan von der Pfalz

Deguerra takes on Ludwig von Bohmen

I've updated the playlist.

Zim
11-19-2007, 18:21
I have to say, I'm quite surprised by Econ's suggestion (and his kind words).
If Warluster and Ignoramus are ok with it, I would be happy to have Jan take up the dukeship, or stewardship of Swabia. It is up to them and the diet, however. Both of their characters have better IC reaons to be duke. At best, Jan would be a compromise.

As an aside, I also support OOC the "Duchy of Flanders" idea, as long as that Duchy is recognized to include Caen, whether or not it has fallen.

P.S. Don't forget my character's pointy spear wielding compatriots, Tincow. I think, given the situation, he'll need them. ~;)

Stuperman
11-19-2007, 18:38
I have to agree with PK, I think Warluster should have right of first refusal, no offence Zim, but I find it hard to justify getting an RGBG appointed Duke of Swabia.

TinCow
11-19-2007, 18:43
It seems to be inherent in section 4. A holdover from the beginning of the game when Dietrich von Saxony, Maximillian Mandorf, and Otto von Kassel were Generals outside of the family tree.

I fully disagree. Those rules were specifically designed to deal with the situation at the start of the game, as is obvious from their language. Given that I was Maximillian Mandorf, I am very much familiar with the purpose of that rule when it was written. I am against inventing rules where they do not exist, especially when they hurt the game. The way the rules are written, we should not even be allowing recruitable generals at all, but we are because it is better for the game. Given the large number of recruitable generals we are now using, I think that restricting Dukedoms to family members will have a detrimental impact on KOTR. It is not the players' fault that there are no avatars available for them and as we have seen, having people sit around and do nothing while waiting for one is a poor solution. Ask Northnovas about it.

Remember also that it is now essentially impossible for recruitable generals to be adopted. Due to territory losses from the cataclysm, we have far more family members than provinces and as such no new births or adoptions are likely to happen anytime soon. We are also not far off from ending KOTR; I would guess 2-3 more Chancellorships. Thus we have a situation in which new players can take a recruitable general, but are forced to be totally barred from significant political advancement, or wait for a new avatar which may result in them getting only a few turns of play time before the entire game ends. That is very unfair and will stifle the game.

If you want to restrict Dukedoms to family members, that can be done by a specific Charter Amendment which will leave no room for debate. I do not consider it to be an unclear situation, but if we want to be very sure about it, we can say that it is and have Elberhard (econ21) rule on it in his role as Kaiser. I would then urge him not to restrict it to family members for the reasons I gave above.

Zim
11-19-2007, 18:49
Maybe my character could be declared "Steward" for the duration of the Cataclysm, and charged with preventing warring between the two sides and directing the early counter-offenses against the French. This would be a temporary compromise. IC, we would say it was effective until Kaiser Elberhard returns from Antioch (conveniently timed for the endof the Cataclysm).

Then, after the Cataclysm ends(what, five turns?) von Salza would again become Duke(or Hummel if somehow the Diet prefers it), and the argument over a possible Duchy of Flanders would be settled in the Diet.

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 18:56
TC,

My stance is nothing against the players. In the short time I have played with Zim, I have enjoyed very much how "into" the role he gets. Also, I am very much for the Dukes being "active" players. I believe a lot of the problems Swabia and Franconia have, stem from DG and XDeathfire being fairly inactive players when they were Dukes.

I just believe we have a bi-furcated system. Nobles are nobles. Commoners are not. I see the charter as reflecting this. It seems to limit certain titles to nobles. If people want this changed, I think it should be a CA for the next Diet. If we want to roleplay something close to feudalism, then lets show those kind of divides.

I would rather see the "commoners" fight for their rights IC than have them handed to them OOC. It would make for an exciting Diet session and has some precendent in history. It also shows the strain that the cataclysm is showing on the HRE. We are getting pressed for manpower and are forced to recruit more and more men of the "lesser sort". This creates an in-game tension that should be fun and dramatic. The RBG's can unite across House lines and demand to be treated fairly.

"Mid-level generals of the Reich unite!" :2thumbsup:

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 18:57
I think econ meant for you to become Duke post-cataclysm too.

Anyway, my view on this is that Warluster should stay Duke, as ICly this only makes sense:
Ignoramus' character is for seceding his principality from the empire, while Warluster is for keeping Swabia inside the empire. Giving the Dukeship to a player from either side (there is no "neutral" here) is basically either saying "secede" or "stay", and the other side will be unhappy. However, in the grand scheme of things, it would make more sense for the Duchy to stay with the empire but possibly break into two separate houses, so both Ignoramus and Warluster would end up Duke of each a smaller piece of land.

I also agree with PK's view on things that recruited generals should not be entirely treated as part of the royal family, which is slowly diminishing. Generals thus can also cross house lines and say join another house. See them as mercenaries in a way and they have their own freedom. You can bind them by giving them incentives, but they shouldn't become Duke or Emperor (edit: unless adopted, which is very likely once the cataclysm is over and we rush for land).

Zim
11-19-2007, 19:02
I think econ meant for you to become Duke post-cataclysm too.


I know, but I think it would work better as a temporary fix. Things are unstable now, with von Salza and Hummel strongly opposed to eachother. A compromise would help more during the Cataclysm. Later, after order is restored, the Diet can decide on the justice of different proposals and the emperor can just crush any remaining rebellions.

econ21
11-19-2007, 19:04
As I said earlier, maybe the Swabians should pursue the issue of a peace settlement in character? The two sides could sort out their positions in their own House/Principality threads, then PM each other or use the IMS? I think it is the kind of thing best done IC.

On another matter, TinCow just mentioned the end of KOTR not being far off. To clarify, this question was raised in a PM exchange between us. We don't have strong feelings - it depends how much fun the game is down the line. However, he did mentioned having a vote on wrapping it up in about 2-3 Chancellorships time - which I guess would be some time early in the new year.

That chrystalises one point I wanted to raise with Privateerkev - I was going to do it by PM, but the OOC thread is as good as any. I was a little shocked to see the age of the avatar you have chosen, Andreas von Hamburg. IIRC, he is 2 years old. Characters age 1 year every 2 turns and come of age at 16. So you would be looking at about 28 turns before you have an avatar. Let's say each turn takes 3 days in real life and you would be looking at three months without an avatar. That just seems like a long time for a very active player to be without an avatar and I was wondering if you would reconsider or adopt a temporary one in the mean time?

For example, we just spawned a Franconian, Jens Merode, who is now not needed by anyone else?

By contrast, Factionheir already has a new avatar. GeneralHankerchief's pick matures around the time of the next Diet, so does not seem to be such a problem. And he has suggested role-playing Luther in the interim.

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 19:19
That chrystalises one point I wanted to raise with Privateerkev - I was going to do it by PM, but the OOC thread is as good as any. I was a little shocked to see the age of the avatar you have chosen, Andreas von Hamburg. IIRC, he is 2 years old. Characters age 1 year every 2 turns and come of age at 16. So you would be looking at about 28 turns before you have an avatar. Let's say each turn takes 3 days in real life and you would be looking at three months without an avatar. That just seems like a long time for a very active player to be without an avatar and I was wondering if you would reconsider or adopt a temporary one in the mean time?

For example, we just spawned a Franconian, Jens Merode, who is now not needed by anyone else?

Good points. Here was the reasoning behind my avatar decision.

A.) I guess I saw the game as going on for longer than 3 Chancellorships. I am up for keeping this game going for a long long time.

B.) I plan on being very active with Alfgarda and have already interjected her into many plots and sub-plots.

C.) I am actually looking for a little bit of a break. I only have 3-4 weeks left in this semester and things are getting busy.

D.) I have been getting involved more with the Kingdoms Hotseat campaigns going on in the Throne Room. I might end up running one of them soon. (like tomorrow) They take less time than KotR but they still eat up limited free time. It is important to me that a vibrant Kingdom Hotseat community develops and I would like to see a campaign make it past turn 5. :wall:

So, I love this game and I plan on remaining very active. But not having an avatar allows me a certain amount of flexibility since I don't have to submit orders or fight battles. So, for now, I do not mind remaining avatarless. If I get bored or an opportunity opens up to take a cool avatar, I might jump at it. But for now, I would like the added flexibility. :yes:

TinCow
11-19-2007, 19:27
Banning RBGs from Dukeships will cause specific problems right now. It means that as Duke of Bavaria, my only options for heir are three players who have already held major positions (Stuperman, who was Duke of Bavaria before me, GeneralHankerchief, who was Kaiser Heinrich and King Conrad Salier, and OverKnight, who was the first Duke of Bavaria). As econ21 has pointed out before, monopolizing positions of power amongst a few select players is not ideal.

In addition, it is entirely possible that the cataclysm could end with an independant Duchy of Flanders. In such a situation, there could be no possible heir when Wolfgang dies, because he has no children and his new loyalists do not count. That is, frankly, absurd.

I also disagree that barring RBGs from Dukeships is realistic. Nobility can give titles to men of lower rank as much as they want. It would be entirely realistic for the Duke of Bavaria to produce some questionably valid document that says that Friedrich Karolinger is of true noble blood and thus can inherit the title. If other Electors want to contest that (and rebel against him) that would be their right and also in-character. However, it was common practice in medieval Europe to simply produce forged documents to prove bloodlines that didn't really exist, so that political alliances could move forward. Enforcing this rule (which I still say does NOT exist in the Charter and must be actively added by a CA) will thus be going against both history and game enjoyment.

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 19:28
If the game ends in 2-3, then we won't set sail as you had insisted a few months back econ? :grin2:

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 19:34
TC,

I guess we fundamentally disagree with what the Charter says regarding who can be Duke. I believe it is already codified that RBG's can not be Duke. (Section 4 has some good points that support my stance.) The Stewards themselves are not Counts. Like Otto in Innsbruck, they are just soldiers, self-made men of lesser station [think Denethor in Lord of the Rings]. They could be rewarded by being made a Count by their Duke when he spawns, though. And they could marry into the Royal line, potentially becoming the Duke themselves. You see the opposite. I'll go with whatever Econ says about it.

That being said, something else has now come up with regards to this subject. It's now being bandied about that we might be ending the game soon. If we are indeed ending the game soon, then I will object a whole lot less to RBG Dukes.

If we are ending the game, then I don't care if we chuck some of the rules. My stance was more for the long-term benefit of starting a "class war". If we're ending the game soon, then that point is moot. :bow:

Zim
11-19-2007, 19:37
Given the amont of opposition, if Warluster does not think it a good idea, I may drop out of the Dukeship race. I'd rather not enter game beng resented by everyone in and out of character (unless it makes for good roleplaying! :beam: ).

I would like to heartily support the idea of recruitable generals being allowed into high ranks. I never saw non family member generals as non-nobles. I just figured they were not directly related to the king/emperor/whatever. I doubt every major leader in midieval England or the Holy Roman Empire was related to the King/Emperor( at least until after a few centuries of inbreeding).

OOC reasons have already been given. I agree that restrictions woube unfair, and perhaps from studying constitutions so long, I share Tincow's dislike for creating rules where they don't exist, especially when they only hurt people.

I'd be glad to fight for the rights of these generals OOC or within the game, of course! :beam:

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 19:39
OOC reasons have already been given. I agree that restrictions woube unfair, and perhaps from studying constitutions so long, I share Tincow's dislike for creating rules where they don't exist, especially when they only hurt people.

The way I read section 4, I truly believe the rule already exists. But I'll go with what Econ says. Also, if we're ending soon, I'll drop my objection completely. :yes:

Zim
11-19-2007, 19:40
The way I read section 4, I truly believe the rule already exists. But I'll go with what Econ says. Also, if we're ending soon, I'll drop my objection completely. :yes:

I wrote the post befre seeing your most recent spoiler. It does indeed seem to imply only family members can become dukes.

Then the fight moves on to IC! :charge:

Also, I note you didn't disagree with the part about resenting me. ~;) :clown:

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 19:43
I think one of the main reasons it was brought up that the Dukeship could pass to someone else was the OOC notion (which I don't really agree with in all honesty) that players should not hold more than 1 significant post (emperor, duke) for the entire game until everyone else eligible had. Personally, I think this is very restricting and makes no sense ICly, and we are mainly here to roleplay, not to impose rules on people.

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 19:46
I wrote the post befre seeing your most recent spoiler. It does indeed seem to imply only family members can become dukes.

Then the fight moves on to IC! :charge:

Also, I note you didn't disagree with the part about resenting me. ~;) :clown:

Zim,

It is because I secretly hate your guts.

:clown:

My objection has to do with how I read the rules and with my desire to see class warfare develop.

Zim
11-19-2007, 19:49
Zim,

It is because I secretly hate your guts.

:clown:

I already knew it deep down inside yet it still makes me sad. ~:(
:clown:


My objection has to do with how I read the rules and with my desire to see class warfare develop.

But in real class warfare, we'd greatly outnumber the nobles. As it is, we are a minority of what, two, three? :sweatdrop:

TinCow
11-19-2007, 19:50
The way I read section 4, I truly believe the rule already exists. But I'll go with what Econ says. Also, if we're ending soon, I'll drop my objection completely. :yes:

The section you cite is specifically referring to two characters that existed at the start of the game. You are reading it entirely out of context.


I think one of the main reasons it was brought up that the Dukeship could pass to someone else was the OOC notion (which I don't really agree with in all honesty) that players should not hold more than 1 significant post (emperor, duke) for the entire game until everyone else eligible had. Personally, I think this is very restricting and makes no sense ICly, and we are mainly here to roleplay, not to impose rules on people.

Exactly, so why am I being limited in which of my Counts I can name as my heir? Lothar is Duke of Bavaria, he should be able to name anyone he pleases to be his heir. If you want to tell him otherwise, you had best bring an army with you.

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 19:54
You do realize there is one at Bern and Bavaria also has Byzantines nearby?

:clown:


I think we should settle it in a diet vote rather than strangle each other over it now. Its not US Presidential elections afterall.

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 19:56
The section you cite is specifically referring to two characters that existed at the start of the game. You are reading it entirely out of context.

Quite possibly. Won't be the first time I mis-read the Charter. (probably won't be the last either.) But I still think the rules governing the setup of the game are still applicable to the later-game. That is where my stance comes from. Therefore, from my point of view, my stance is already codified in the Charter and would not require a CA. There are now 6 RBG's. If they band together and make some alliances, they could easily pass a "RBG rights" CA at the next Diet.

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 19:58
There are now 6 RBG's. If they band together and make some alliances, they could easily pass a "RBG rights" CA at the next Diet.

If my sig wasn't already full, I would add this to it. Hilarious! :laugh4:

Zim
11-19-2007, 19:59
You do realize there is one at Bern and Bavaria also has Byzantines nearby?

:clown:


I think we should settle it in a diet vote rather than strangle each other over it now. Its not US Presidential elections afterall.

Ah, yes, scarcely an election goes by here without at least one strangled candidate. :inquisitive:

Everone knows it's really every other election! :clown:

TinCow
11-19-2007, 20:00
I have no problems settling this in a Diet vote. However, if that is to happen I first want a clarification from the Kaiser (econ21) about what the rule is at this moment. That makes a huge difference, as the 'opposition' to whatever he picks will then have to come up with a 2/3 majority.

Zim
11-19-2007, 20:01
There are now 6 RBG's. If they band together and make some alliances, they could easily pass a "RBG rights" CA at the next Diet.

Recruitable generals of the World, unite!

:charge:

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 20:03
I have no problems settling this in a Diet vote. However, if that is to happen I first want a clarification from the Kaiser (econ21) about what the rule is at this moment. That makes a huge difference, as the 'opposition' to whatever he picks will then have to come up with a 2/3 majority.

I'm totally cool with that. :yes:

as long as you agree that I'm right and declare me "lord of charter interpretation"

:clown:

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 20:18
I'm currently finalizing the next KOTRfix version (with a wealth of changes and fixes), and am needing an interpretation from a native English speaker.

What is "greater": "renowned" or "famous"?
I was checking through all ancillary icons and trait descriptions too and came across this for the VictorVirtue levels. Personally, I'd think Renowned is greater than Famous, but by all means, prove me wrong.

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 20:23
They seem to be synonyms. If I had to guess, I'd go with renowned being greater.

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 20:24
Yes, they indeed are, which is what makes this task so difficult. ~:)

Zim
11-19-2007, 20:25
In American English, at least, I'd say they're technically synonyms. Renowned does sound better, though. Someone could be famous for anything, good or bad. To be "renowned", I think a person would have to have accomplished something really great.


I'm currently finalizing the next KOTRfix version (with a wealth of changes and fixes), and am needing an interpretation from a native English speaker.

What is "greater": "renowned" or "famous"?
I was checking through all ancillary icons and trait descriptions too and came across this for the VictorVirtue levels. Personally, I'd think Renowned is greater than Famous, but by all means, prove me wrong.

Ramses II CP
11-19-2007, 20:26
Well, the most common definition of renowned is famous. English is complicated like that. In common use, though, I'd say renowned is 'greater' if only because it is less used than famous. Renowned also inherently implies skill, IMHO, whereas famous does not. A famous swordsman might be famous for his luck, but he would never be renowned for his luck.

:egypt:

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 20:28
Great, thanks you three. Will change accordingly :bow:

TinCow
11-19-2007, 20:37
I'm currently finalizing the next KOTRfix version (with a wealth of changes and fixes), and am needing an interpretation from a native English speaker.

What exactly is being changed and why?

Stuperman
11-19-2007, 20:47
It's nothing personal Zim, I just don't like the Idea of the Kaiser parachuting his man into the duke's seat. IC the kaiser doesn't have the political power, and it make sno sense after Hans made Von Salza his hier. I think that RGB should be able to be stewards and dukes, just they have to have earned it.

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 20:48
Lost track of all changes, but those are the ones I can remember:
- Fixed NightBattleCapable (I made an error with it in 1.29)
- Fixed a wealth of trait descriptors
- Fixed several ancillary icons to show something more suitable
- Added more triggers for some less used traits
- Adjusted chances of obtaining several traits
- Made it more difficult for muslim nations to gain certain vices and virtues (for religious reasons, I guess)
- Changed a few traits effects (for example Arse and Girls now also decrease piety somewhat at higher levels)
- Made the Disciplinarian line of traits more available via construction of certain buildings
- Reduced the amount of loyalty gained/lost from Content/DiscontentGeneral from 1/3/5 to 1/2/3
- Added triggers for random_birth_turkey
- Changed the Jihad trait line for muslim nations slightly (for arriving at crusade region)
- Changed the way VictorVirtue is awarded (Now given when actually taking a city rather than after a siege battle with certain factors - siege battles are unreliable in that it can be siege sally too and sometimes it is not judged as siege if attacked by a reinforcing army, thus not giving points towards this trait)

All I can remember off the top of my head. Exact changes can be seen by comparing 1.29 and the soon to be released version using a comparison program. Note that you would need to compare all those files, and this is quite difficult to do for the bin files (as those are encrypted). So you can't easily discern the differences in trait/ancillary descriptors, but you can for actual trait/ancillary changes.

TinCow
11-19-2007, 20:55
I've been trying to avoid saying this for a while now, but I am going to insist that this and all future KOTRfix updates be approved by a Charter Amendment. We originally approved this mod a long time ago under its first version. Since then you have been making changes to the game at will based on your own opinion of how it should be. This has an active effect on peoples' stats and will result in some of them changing, possibly giving or removing influence from existing players. That should not happen without an approving vote. I have no problems with using KOTRfix, but we all need to know exactly what is changing and agree on it.

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 20:59
I've been trying to avoid saying this for a while now, but I am going to insist that this and all future KOTRfix updates be approved by a Charter Amendment. We originally approved this mod a long time ago under its first version. Since then you have been making changes to the game at will based on your own opinion of how it should be. This has an active effect on peoples' stats and will result in some of them changing, possibly giving or removing influence from existing players. That should not happen without an approving vote. I have no problems with using KOTRfix, but we all need to know exactly what is changing and agree on it.

Agreed. It was bugging me to see Jan's traits yo-yo up and down. I don't mind using it but I'd like to know what the changes are.

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 21:04
I can see your point regarding playerlist influence being affected and don't mind such a vote if there are several seconders.
I would however say that it should be an OOC vote and not modified by character influence, and can be done before the coming diet session.
As options, I would suggest:
- Use most current versions as they are released
- Use a certain version (this will lead to a second poll if it wins to specify)
- Stop using altogether (this could lead to a second poll to determine whether nothing is used or something else is used)

[edit]
The reason you are seeing updates every month or two is because the fix itself has gone public quite a while ago, and is no longer KOTR only. This also explains why there are changes to other factions, rather than HRE only. There are a few KOTR specific things of course, but I am aiming for it to be a generally usable fix (which also means it will be more balanced overall)

Northnovas
11-19-2007, 21:05
I would have to concur not having the expertise of FH and maybe not coming across the opportunity to gain or lose a trait and therefore not know the difference. I have no objections to fixes but I would like to know what is being changed and is the change for the better.
Appreciate the work you have been doing with the fixes FH. A vote would be the best option for future fixes.

TinCow
11-19-2007, 21:09
I agree it should be an OOC vote. For the record, I think you have done a great job with KOTRfix, but I think as a matter of policy these things should be reviewed and approved before being added. I don't expect a lot (if any) debate will even be needed. Just list the specific changes and toss up an OOC poll. You do good work, so I cannot imagine it not passing.

Zim
11-19-2007, 21:12
No worries, Stuperman. I only considered it because Econ21 brought it up. If the idea is so universally despised I won'tpush the issue.

My own personal ambition right now for my character is remaining Count of Antwerp after the Cataclysm, and getting to fight some battles against he Danes and French.

Thank you for joining the fight for Recruitable Generals' rights! As spokesman fo the as of now single member club, We/I agree that dukeships and other high positions should be handed out for merit, at the descretion of the appointing official. We are not looking for handouts!

Is there somewhere I can see who hs recruitable generals, other than me and Deguerra? I might pm them.

Edit: I second the idea of voting for future fixes for the game. My vote will be for using the most recent one, of course.:beam:

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 21:13
I cannot say whether a change will be for the "better", as that is wholly subjective: i.e. is better
- Characters gain more good traits and lose all bad traits
- Characters gain more bad traits and lose good traits
- Things become more balanced, with chances of gaining both good and bad traits
- And of course: Bugs are being fixed vs Bugs are being exploited

In the initial release of the fix, I was focussed more on fixing bugs and making good traits more available while reducing bad traits drastically, although to a less extreme extent than Medifix.
In the later stages, this has turned mostly on focussing on eliminating any remaining bugs and testing whether some conditions might trigger in unexpected ways (TC knows more about this from past PMs where he asked me about changes). Example of that would be that generals not inside a settlement, but inside the region when a building was finished (and not necessarily by their faction) would gain traits associated with its completion.
In the most recent versions, it has become less HRE-centric and focussed on balancing traits for factions overall (so musim nations are no longer left alone but balanced as well to christian ones). Also, I have started toning down how quickly good traits are gained from early versions and played around with trait thresholds for traits, that now have more than 1 trigger, so they aren't gained too quickly. Similarly, some bad traits have become worse and their chances have been upped either not at all or by 1-2%, depending on various factors.
Of course the other main changes throughout were addition of new triggers for less used or unused traits, so you get to see them more and define your character better. The biggest addition was a huge section on marriage and childbirth triggers, so fathers (and mothers!) have a large impact on how their offspring develop.

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 21:25
Is there somewhere I can see who hs recruitable generals, other than me and Deguerra? I might pm them.

WH, RK, DG, you, and Deguerra all have RBG's. There is a 6th unclaimed one as well that someone might take if their avatar dies or we get a new player.

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 21:29
There is a list in the first post of the C&G reports.

Zim
11-19-2007, 21:37
WH, RK, DG, you, and Deguerra all have RBG's. There is a 6th unclaimed one as well that someone might take if their avatar dies or we get a new player.

Gah! The acronyms, the horrible acronyms!
I'll start trying to figure out who those people are right now. :2thumbsup:

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 21:40
Gah! The acronyms, the horrible acronyms!
I'll start trying to figure out who those people are right now. :2thumbsup:

There is also AG, OK, TC, WL, GH, SM, NN, and PK.

You will be quizzed...

:clown:

Zim
11-19-2007, 21:49
Sadly, I think I can identify most of that second list...

For the first one:
WH=Warmaster Horus
RK= Roadkill
DG= Dutch_guy
Sound right?

FactionHeir
11-19-2007, 21:53
Except that noone actually uses SM or WL. Neither would anyone use E or e21 for that matter.

Btw, when someone first posted PK, I was confused, because it meant "Player Killer" up until then to me :grin2:

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 21:58
I use SM and I think I've used WL before.

Econ, Ig, gib, and mini-econ have yet to have their names butchered. Though they do get shortened.

(If I've left anyone out, I apologize...)

Oh wait! There is EF! :D

*edit*

and Cecil

Dutch_guy
11-19-2007, 21:59
Sadly, I think I can identify most of that second list...

For the first one:
WH=Warmaster Horus
RK= Roadkill
DG= Dutch_guy
Sound right?

Spot on. :2thumbsup:

:balloon2:

Zim
11-19-2007, 22:00
And FH. :clown:
If I started going by ZM, would people stop calling me z i r n? ~;p

Dutch_guy, Woohoo! I got it in one try!


I use SM and I think I've used WL before.

Econ, Ig, gib, and mini-econ have yet to have their names butchered. Though they do get shortened.

(If I've left anyone out, I apologize...)

Oh wait! There is EF! :D

*edit*

and Cecil

Privateerkev
11-19-2007, 22:04
And FH. :clown:

:embarassed:

sorry FH...

econ21
11-19-2007, 23:31
If the game ends in 2-3, then we won't set sail as you had insisted a few months back econ? :grin2:

I want to continue this game as long as it is fun. I do want to sail to America. However, I think TC is right that we should take a sounding amongst the players in 20-30 turns and see whether we as a group do still find it fun or want to start a new PBM. A lot will depend on the internal politics and how challenging it is. Just before the cataclysm, I think it was starting to become a little quiet internally and externally. Right now, thanks to the cataclysm, neither is true. But who knows what it will be like in 30 turns?

WotS started to lag and virtually everyone recognised it was time to end it, even though we had a lot more to do (we had not come close to meeting EBs conditions for a Romani victory).


I have no problems settling this in a Diet vote. However, if that is to happen I first want a clarification from the Kaiser (econ21) about what the rule is at this moment. That makes a huge difference, as the 'opposition' to whatever he picks will then have to come up with a 2/3 majority.

PK is right that we started the game with the idea that the generals not on the family tree could not become Dukes. I think that gave some spice to the game. However, at that time, we did not have the idea of modding in recruitable generals. We thought the only people not on the family tree were the two Stewards.

When we did mod recruitables in we - or at least I - completely forgot about the idea that players not on the family tree could not be Dukes. And if I had thought about it, I would have been inclined to reject it as rather unfair on the Austrians (or newbies, or whoever) and overly restrictive.

I think we can regard the recruitables as more like self-made men - they don't have the blue blood family ties. But if a Duke wants to make them their successor, they can do.

OverKnight
11-20-2007, 01:04
Speaking as as someone who played one of the originial "self made man", I'm all for lifting OOC restrictions on what they can do. However, I'd like it if people kept IC insights on characters origins. Part of the fun playing Otto was wheeling and dealing to climb up the social ladder. He had a chip on his shoulder about his lesser origins, and it was part of what fueled his ambition.

So let's get rid of the OOC restrictions, but feel free to keep class bias as an IC notion.

Also unless recruitable generals are adopted into the Royal Family, they won't have their own kids, so there is still motivation for them to wiggle their way into the high nobility.

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 01:10
Also unless recruitable generals are adopted into the Royal Family, they won't have their own kids, so there is still motivation for them to wiggle their way into the high nobility.

Also they can't be freehold counts, prince, or Kaiser.

I am also thinking of introducing a CA that demands that RBG's must crawl along the Diet floor and grovel any time they wish to address the body.

:clown:

Oh, and I would like to take this opportunity to say that TC was right and I will now address him as "lord of charter interpretation" though I may cut it down to "Loci" for short. :bow:

AussieGiant
11-20-2007, 01:18
Regarding non family members or RGB's.

Things have moved on from when anything was written or first thought about, regarding RBG's.

I certainly like the idea IC of there being some kind of "class" system as PK has outlined but I would recommend letting the game flow and seeing if that occurs rather than interpreting a rule in any hard or fast fashion. All that is doing is "bending" things in a certain direction to suit an agenda.

If an RBG and the players controlling them are strong enough "in" and "out" of character to gain any position then so be it...let's have the game allow for it rather than making a rule for the sake of this "idea".

We have more than enough rules...I will always argue for letting the game flow and "seeing" what happens rather than micro analysing current "codifcation" and or passing further laws.

As OK states there are clear "in game" mechanics which will prevent them from certain things. But lets keep the restrictions IC rather than OOC in various laws.

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 01:27
I certainly like the idea IC of there being some kind of "class" system as PK has outlined but I would recommend letting the game flow and seeing if that occurs rather than interpreting a rule in any hard or fast fashion. All that is doing is "bending" things in a certain direction to suit an agenda.

I wasn't "bending" anything. It really was how I saw the rules. Unless you claim that "perception" is really an inherent and subconscience "bending". By that interpretation, we all "bend" the rules every time we read the charter.

I'm playing a generic elector for a very long time so my stance on RBG's was certainly not to shape some sort of IC agenda. The class war idea was based on my own interpretation of the rules. To claim I was "bending" is to apply a certain amount of forethought and maliciousness to my actions that I simply do not believe applies. :no:

I will demand your apology and that you here-after refer to me as the "deputy lord of charter interpretation."

:clown:

deguerra
11-20-2007, 01:28
so I can be a Duke, but if I want to have kiddies, I must find myself a sassy royal wench. Capsice :D

FactionHeir
11-20-2007, 01:30
Or just get adopted and get a marriage proposal as the rest of us.

Zim
11-20-2007, 01:34
The tricky part about that is that there is now a low general to territory ratio. It might be tough to be adopted.

Most of the "rest of us"(them) were probably born into the family, if for no other reason than that Tincow had difficulty creating recruitable general characters until recently.

Edit: Great story, deguerra! :2thumbsup:

FactionHeir
11-20-2007, 01:38
Shouldn't take too long. I imagine within 2 chancellorships, it is entirely possible to reclaim all the lost territories, if no restrictions are set for conquest.

Also, being part of the family doesn't mean you will get married. Most of the current characters (and the recently deceased) were bachelors all their lives and some (like Arnold) still haven't been married. Hans only got married the turn he got himself killed, so that's almost a hundred turns since he's been in play.

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 01:44
Most of the "rest of us"(them) were probably born into the family, if for no other reason than that Tincow had difficulty creating recruitable general characters until recently.

RBG's are actually a relatively new addition to the game. Our territories got pretty static so our avatars were not marrying or having children anymore.

We had new players join (WH and RK), but no avatars to give them in the houses they wanted, so there was an executive decision to let FH mod the game to allow RBG's

The parts of the charter that were in question (section 4.1-4.3) were to deal with the three beginning generals that the HRE starts out with.

Now, because of avatar death and new players we have more RBG's. Because of certain political and demographic circumstances, the question came up of making one Duke.

Some of us saw section 4 of the charter as outlawing such an act. Some did not. Econ ruled that an RBG can become Duke.

Finally AG mortally offended me and will be forced to pay horrible penance in the form of a large ice cream shake. Or beer...

:clown:

And that is the RBG story in 5 minutes or less.

Zim
11-20-2007, 01:45
:oops: Very true, Factionheir. For some reason I read deguerra's post asking how to get into the royal family, not how to have children.

On a side note, Tincow had plans to get the next turn up sometime late this evening, and it's about 8 P.M. in his time zone (EST). Assuming he can do as planned, that means the next turn will be up in a couple hours! :thumbsup:

Edit: Scratch that, the next turn is up!

Ramses II CP
11-20-2007, 04:36
Fritz is so not going to be popular. :no:

:egypt:

AussieGiant
11-20-2007, 05:25
I wasn't "bending" anything. It really was how I saw the rules. Unless you claim that "perception" is really an inherent and subconscience "bending". By that interpretation, we all "bend" the rules every time we read the charter.

I'm playing a generic elector for a very long time so my stance on RBG's was certainly not to shape some sort of IC agenda. The class war idea was based on my own interpretation of the rules. To claim I was "bending" is to apply a certain amount of forethought and maliciousness to my actions that I simply do not believe applies. :no:

I will demand your apology and that you here-after refer to me as the "deputy lord of charter interpretation."

:clown:

Oh dear...PK, I read the same section you referred to and concluded that I saw nothing in the rules that restricts who can be Duke and who cannot.

Sound familiar??

therefore, from my point of view there was some bending going on to fit your idea...which I think is a good idea but should be left up to the gamers to decide IC rather than any attempt a preventing recruitable general becoming Dukes or Steward. In fact they should be allowed to atain these position because they can never become a Prinz or Kaiser due to the IC restrictions.

Am I allowed to have that opinion "oh deputy lord of charter interpretation".

Zim
11-20-2007, 05:46
Took a look at the save to decide on my character's actions and noted two gah worthy things.

:gah: 1: Jan von der Pfalz is balding at 22, has almost no traits, and a loyalty decreasing trait. Poor guy, but I guess it'll fit in with my first story for him :clown:

:gah: 2: There are a LOT of full stack Danish armies around northeastern Flanders and Franconia, and through the western half of Swabia. :sweatdrop:

Hmmm...I was thinking more Gah! than gah?, but the smilie will do. ~;p

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 06:18
Oh dear...PK, I read the same section you referred to and concluded that I saw nothing in the rules that restricts who can be Duke and who cannot.

Sound familiar??

therefore, from my point of view there was some bending going on to fit your idea...which I think is a good idea but should be left up to the gamers to decide IC rather than any attempt a preventing recruitable general becoming Dukes or Steward. In fact they should be allowed to atain these position because they can never become a Prinz or Kaiser due to the IC restrictions.

Am I allowed to have that opinion "oh deputy lord of charter interpretation".

First off, Econ already ruled on this before your first post regarding this issue so your essentially debating with me over a "non-issue". ^^

Second, while you can certainly debate my interpretation of the rules, you will have a hard time convincing me that I did not actually believe that interpretation. Where you see bending, I simply perceived something. I did not have to look very hard to see my stance. It just popped out at me. I do not claim that those who held a different interpretation, somehow "bended". They just saw things differently. And their perception won out because of the power-relationship in the game. If your GM, you get to make your perception and conception of the game reality for the other players. "it's good to be the king" :beam:

You can disagree with that stance all you want but you will find it difficult to convince me that it was actually not my perception. I claim to be "lord-god-emperor" of knowledge regarding my perception. Therefore I will tell you whether I was bending anything or not and you will either believe it or you won't. :yes:

As for whether you can have an opinion, the "deputy lord of charter interpretation" will consider it if you get him a large milk shake. Or a beer. Or... a beer flavored milk shake. Mmmmmmmm.....

:clown:

AussieGiant
11-20-2007, 06:27
First off, Econ already ruled on this before your first post regarding this issue so your essentially debating with me over a "non-issue". ^^

Second, while you can certainly debate my interpretation of the rules, you will have a hard time convincing me that I did not actually believe that interpretation. Where you see bending, I simply perceived something. I did not have to look very hard to see my stance. It just popped out at me. I do not claim that those who held a different interpretation, somehow "bended". They just saw things differently. And their perception won out because of the power-relationship in the game. If your GM, you get to make your perception and conception of the game reality for the other players. "it's good to be the king" :beam:

You can disagree with that stance all you want but you will find it difficult to convince me that it was actually not my perception. I claim to be "lord-god-emperor" of knowledge regarding my perception. Therefore I will tell you whether I was bending anything or not and you will either believe it or you won't. :yes:

As for whether you can have an opinion, the "deputy lord of charter interpretation" will consider it if you get him a large milk shake. Or a beer. Or... a beer flavored milk shake. Mmmmmmmm.....

:clown:

So then...does all that apply to my opinion that:

I read the same section you referred to and concluded that I saw nothing in the rules that restricts who can be Duke and who cannot?

And yes Econ ruled so we have a result.

His decision doesn't magically remove the ability to discuss it, or in fact work out how one sentence can be interpretted in completely opposite directions.

Can you explain your thought process on it?

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 06:46
So then...does all that apply to my opinion that:

I read the same section you referred to and concluded that I saw nothing in the rules that restricts who can be Duke and who cannot?

And yes Econ ruled so we have a result.

His decision doesn't magically remove the ability to discuss it, or in fact work out how one sentence can be interpreted in completely opposite directions.

Can you explain your thought process on it?

Alright, I'll just state that I'm not trying to beat a dead horse and am just answering AG's question. Econ ruled and I'm happy with it.

But here was where I was coming from:

I read that section of the charter and saw that generals could not be Dukes. I assumed that it carried forward to the present. That part of the charter was active at 1080. I thought things written in 1080 were good in 1332 since no one ever changed the law.

When I saw "generals", I thought it meant all "generals" in the game, period. Starting generals, generals gained through bribery, recruitable generals, ect...

I took the law and extended it to present day. We've done it before. We apply laws that were written in the game over 250 hundred years ago and keep using them until they are amended. Usually no one bats an eye over it.

For me it was an easy leap. It wasn't part of an IC agenda. If anything, playing a generic elector would make my character more sympathetic to the plight of the common self-made man.

Others read the charter differently. And people decided that since the law only applied to the beginning of the game, then it shouldn't hamstring us today. And that's cool with me. I am not really "anti-RBG" no matter how many "RBG groveling CA's" I may propose. I just read the charter a certain way and that informed my opinion on Econ's statement about Zim being Duke.

So, for me, the matter is settled. But that is how I arrived at my first stance on the issue and why. :yes:

AussieGiant
11-20-2007, 07:00
Alright, I'll just state that I'm not trying to beat a dead horse and am just answering AG's question. Econ ruled and I'm happy with it.

But here was where I was coming from:

I read that section of the charter and saw that generals could not be Dukes. I assumed that it carried forward to the present. That part of the charter was active at 1080. I thought things written in 1080 were good in 1332 since no one ever changed the law.

When I saw "generals", I thought it meant all "generals" in the game, period. Starting generals, generals gained through bribery, recruitable generals, ect...

I took the law and extended it to present day. We've done it before. We apply laws that were written in the game over 250 hundred years ago and keep using them until they are amended. Usually no one bats an eye over it.

For me it was an easy leap. It wasn't part of an IC agenda. If anything, playing a generic elector would make my character more sympathetic to the plight of the common self-made man.

Others read the charter differently. And people decided that since the law only applied to the beginning of the game, then it shouldn't hamstring us today. And that's cool with me. I am not really "anti-RBG" no matter how many "RBG groveling CA's" I may propose. I just read the charter a certain way and that informed my opinion on Econ's statement about Zim being Duke.

So, for me, the matter is settled. But that is how I arrived at my first stance on the issue and why. :yes:

Ok that's very clear.

Which sentence was the one that made it clear for you? I can't see it...which probably could be how we have come to opposite views on the issue.

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 07:15
Ok that's very clear.

Which sentence was the one that made it clear for you? I can't see it...which probably could be how we have come to opposite views on the issue.

Let me dig it out of an old post in here from earlier today,

The Stewards themselves are not Counts. Like Otto in Innsbruck, they are just soldiers, self-made men of lesser station [think Denethor in Lord of the Rings]. They could be rewarded by being made a Count by their Duke when he spawns, though. And they could marry into the Royal line, potentially becoming the Duke themselves.

I took this line, which I now know was meant only for the beginning three generals, and applied it to our present situation with RBG's. I saw generals not being able to be Duke unless they marry in. I assumed it applied to all generals regardless of time or circumstance.

See what happens when you assume... :embarassed:

This is why I am only worthy of being the "deputy loci". :yes:

AussieGiant
11-20-2007, 07:37
Ah ha,

Now I get it.

Yes the context back then shows the "marriage bit" needing to happen before becoming a Duke.

It's actually a very literal assumption now I've re-read it. What a "literal assumption" is now has to be clarified.

Due to Austria's situation over the decades I would have never found that line. At one stage the Nobles had to be "adopted" so they we not even part of the original blood line of the Duchy. Which is no worse in my opinion that having no blood line at all. Adoption into the nobility doesn't have to be through blood in my view.

Also at one point Karl Zirn could have died without a blood relative to assume the position for Arnold.

My circumstance meant I would have never seen that as a hard and fast rule that would prevent RBG's holding the position of Steward or Duke.

Thanks for the clarification.

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 07:41
No problem! :yes:

I just saw what I thought was established law, and then applied it to today's circumstances. I didn't even think of the context in which the law was created in or Austria's past situation. That's why I didn't see it as "bending" or "over-analyzing". It was "assuming". No less a crime but a different crime. :yes:

Now about my beer flavored shake...

I prefer Guinness...

:clown:

AussieGiant
11-20-2007, 07:44
No less a crime but a different crime.

Considering it is a lesser crime the shake options are;

Victoria Bitter

Toohey's or Coopers Pale Ale. :beam:

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 07:45
Considering it is a lesser crime the shake options are;

Victoria Bitter

Toohey's or Coopers Pale Ale. :beam:

I'm a stout fan myself. Which one of those is the darkest sludgiest beer of the three? I like to eat my beer with a spoon. :beam:

AussieGiant
11-20-2007, 08:04
none actually the pale ale is cloudy.

I'm also a dark beer guy myself.

John Smith's, Killkenny, Guiness they are all good.

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 08:31
Guinness is my old stand by. But I also like Imperial Stouts like Samuel Smith and Old Rasputin (9% alcohol beer... :2thumbsup: )

Zim
11-20-2007, 09:16
Guinness is my old stand by. But I also like Imperial Stouts like Samuel Smith and Old Rasputin (9% alcohol beer... :2thumbsup: )

I think I've had Old Rasputin before...
I also prefer darker beers, which tends to mean Guiness in most American stores, although there are some delicious microbrews where I live now in the Northwest.

~:cheers:

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 09:19
This thread is starting to make me thirsty...

Too bad it's 2:15am where I am. :shame:

Zim
11-20-2007, 09:22
This thread is starting to make me thirsty...

Too bad it's 2:15am where I am. :shame:

You must be in the western hemisphere then, it's 12:21 here(Pacific Time).
I don't have any beer at home, but I do have half a bottle of Russia vodka.

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 09:23
You must be in the western hemisphere then, it's 12:21 here(Pacific Time).
I don't have any beer at home, but I do have half a bottle of Russia vodka.

I'm on US CT. I'm around Chicagoland.

Zim
11-20-2007, 09:29
I'm on US CT. I'm around Chicagoland.

I'm in Oregon right now, but I used to live in CT, too (Texas in my case).

Ramses II CP
11-20-2007, 16:13
Taking the save to recapture Stettin, per TC's permission.

:egypt:

Ramses II CP
11-20-2007, 19:05
Stettin has been sacked. New save is:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1332-2.zip

I'll be posting screenshots of the results shortly.

:egypt:

Zim
11-20-2007, 20:04
Fritz is so not going to be popular. :no:

:egypt:

If he starts moving west against some of those nasty Danish stacks ravaging the rest of Franconia and near my border, I'll commission a statue of Saint Fritz to be built in Antwerp, with a plaque detailing his heroic qualities and adventures. :clown:

Ramses II CP
11-20-2007, 21:30
I have a feeling Stettin is going to be a shell of a city after this, and Fritz is definitely looking for a fight.

econ21
11-20-2007, 21:32
Very nice battle report, Ramses II CP, and a brilliant victory! :bow:

FactionHeir
11-20-2007, 21:56
Anyone want to place bets on how many religious unrest armies TC will spawn at Stattin for the next year after Ramses' write-up of sack number2 and feeding the fire? :laugh4:

P.S.: The new players may already know it, but in case they don't, and to avoid any problems: When you play a battle, you have exactly one attempt at it. If you get defeated (or your siege tools all get burned down before you get to assault) then that is it and you should write-up the defeat and post the save again. Replaying a battle is not allowed in this PBM even if your character dies in battle. Thank you. :2thumbsup:

Zim
11-20-2007, 21:58
I'll put 20 florins on three rebel armies, FH. :clown:

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 22:00
Anyone want to place bets on how many religious unrest armies TC will spawn at Stattin for the next year after Ramses' write-up of sack number2 and feeding the fire? :laugh4:

I'm surprised that there was no added unrest caused from four Catholic and Lutheran armies destroying each other which resulted in the death of three prominent religious figures. Maybe both sides felt it was a draw?

FactionHeir
11-20-2007, 22:01
I'm surprised that there was no added unrest caused from four Catholic and Lutheran armies destroying each other which resulted in the death of three prominent religious figures. Maybe both sides felt it was a draw?

There was intense discussion about this behind the scenes and we felt that the Lutheran and Chirstian relief armies that were spawned already were the added unrest. Since the Christians won rather decisively, there would be no additional unrest especially as Hans during his lifetime had persecuted most Lutherans in Swabia already or converted them as he had a bishop and a cardinal with him at all times. Basically: There are not enough Lutherans left at Bern and Catholics won't kill each other for fun.

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 22:08
P.S.: The new players may already know it, but in case they don't, and to avoid any problems: When you play a battle, you have exactly one attempt at it. If you get defeated (or your siege tools all get burned down before you get to assault) then that is it and you should write-up the defeat and post the save again. Replaying a battle is not allowed in this PBM even if your character dies in battle. Thank you. :2thumbsup:

I totally agree. (and my post in the Crusade thread may have inspired your post)

Our avatars are in a war. Things happen. It's crappy but you suck it up. We've had avatars die from assassination, stray flaming catapult shots, and tower arrows. You will get another avatar if yours dies. Many people in here are on their 2nd or 3rd avatar. (GH is about to get his 5th).

Being a medieval general in a faction that is perpetually at war with most of the known world is not a safe profession. :no:

FactionHeir
11-20-2007, 22:12
You will get another avatar if yours dies.

Psst, keep that secret! Someone might get the idea of starting at the eldest Steffen child and getting him killed and work his way down the line :bounce:

Zim
11-20-2007, 22:13
I'm always surprised to hear about people replaying battles. I don't think it ever even occurred to me until I saw people on the org saying they did it. It's hard enough to lose a battle against the AI as is, and nice when it happens.



P.S.: The new players may already know it, but in case they don't, and to avoid any problems: When you play a battle, you have exactly one attempt at it. If you get defeated (or your siege tools all get burned down before you get to assault) then that is it and you should write-up the defeat and post the save again. Replaying a battle is not allowed in this PBM even if your character dies in battle. Thank you. :2thumbsup:

Privateerkev
11-20-2007, 22:21
I'm always surprised to hear about people replaying battles. I don't think it ever even occurred to me until I saw people on the org saying they did it. It's hard enough to lose a battle against the AI as is, and nice when it happens.

In my SP games, I am a reload fiend. I quick save before the end of every turn. If a general gets a Pagan Magician or a Princess gets a Secret Lover, I reload the save and end the turn again. Same if a general gets assassinated. In the Crusade game, the Egyptians tried to assassinate my generals every turn. If they succeeded, I just reloaded and ended turn again. The generals racked up some mad anti-assassin traits though. ^^

But MP games are different. Since your playing against/with other people you don't reload.


Psst, keep that secret! Someone might get the idea of starting at the eldest Steffen child and getting him killed and work his way down the line :bounce:

That's just evil. Funny... but evil.

Zim
11-20-2007, 22:30
Interesting. I can probably count the number of times I've reloaded a game since MTW1 on the fingers of one hand. I tend to do it in the newer games if I order an agent to go one direction and he walks right into a visible enemy unit several steps into his journey and loses all his movement points (If I could, I'd have diplomats flogged for that :whip: ).


In my SP games, I am a reload fiend. I quick save before the end of every turn. If a general gets a Pagan Magician or a Princess gets a Secret Lover, I reload the save and end the turn again. Same if a general gets assassinated. In the Crusade game, the Egyptians tried to assassinate my generals every turn. If they succeeded, I just reloaded and ended turn again. The generals racked up some mad anti-assassin traits though. ^^

But MP games are different. Since your playing against/with other people you don't reload.

Ramses II CP
11-20-2007, 22:41
The thing of it is, from my perspective, Fritz is rather stuck. There's nothing in him that leads me to believe he's going to back down or show mercy any time soon. If playing him that way gets him killed, he'll die true to himself.

What I mean is, of course as a player I see things from the 'meta game' perspective; I want less religious unrest and so on. Then I read Fritz's life story, and see the things he's done already, where his loyalties lie, and what his traits are and he looked like an, angry, jingoistic, inaccessable, unpleasant guy. He's infertile and unmarried in an era when manhood meant half a dozen children at least.

So I'm not going to be mad if I get put in a dark place and can't make my way out. That's where Fritz is headed anyway. That's probably his logical end.

And, honestly, I don't know if there are enough people left in Stettin to make three stacks of religious nuts. :laugh4:

:egypt:

edit: Though I do imagine Peter, one of the few people he respects, is going to smack him down hard on all counts. After all, Stettin is Peter's city too and by higher authority, and Peter has just become Prinz of the whole Reich, Lutheran and Catholic alike.

Zim
11-20-2007, 22:44
Saint Fritz, Ramses, "Saint" Fritz. At least, that is how he will be known in Antwerp if the swords of his men are soaked in the blood of Danes. :clown:

GeneralHankerchief
11-20-2007, 23:03
(GH is about to get his 5th).

...and I love them all equally. ~:grouphug:

Well, except for Salier. He was a bit annoying at times.

Zim
11-20-2007, 23:30
Can anyone familiar with Factionheir's trait fixer tell me if they know anything about the loyalty traits? My character started with a minor loyalty reducing trait (speaks of loyalty). I'm curious if this is likely to get worse, and if there is a way to reverse it. I have this nagging fear about finding him becoming a rebel unit (the grey rebels, that is) some turn.

Ferret
11-20-2007, 23:35
Dieter has had 'speaks of loyalty' since I took him and it hasn't advanced at all but he has gained feels respected or something along that track so he now has quite high loyalty, I don't think it's worth worrying about.

Zim
11-20-2007, 23:38
Thanks, EF. I don't bother much with loyalty in SP(except not to use generals under 3 loyalty) so I didn't know what kind of triggers it had. I know some traits tend to get worse and worse, even if you don't do anything, so I was worried. The trait even fits well from a roleplaying perspective, since he did abandon his original side of the war.

As of now he has a respectable 4 loyalty, so he isn't at immediate risk.

FactionHeir
11-21-2007, 00:09
Disloyal/Loyal traits do not change over time and are gained (or not gained) on character creation.
The only time they can change, is when you character accepts/refuses a bribe.

The Content/DiscontentGeneral line of traits changes fairly frequently depending on a variety of factors.

See the former as your character's general outlook on loyalty and the latter as how he feels about his station currently.

TinCow
11-21-2007, 00:15
I wouldn't stress to much about your characters' traits. You eventually pile on so many of them that it's impossible to include them all in your portrayal. I tend to pick out a few that are unusual or seem to stand out, then I build on those. New traits and ancillaries that conflict with that personality either get ignored or used to create the basis of an event that changes my character on a fundamental level. Do not be afraid to just forget about the loyalty trait if it is just an annoyance to you. This is your character, after all, and he is whoever you say he is. The traits should be considered suggestions for behavior, not rules.

FactionHeir
11-21-2007, 00:27
What he said.

Zim
11-21-2007, 00:42
Thanks, guys. My biggest fear was that "speaks of loyalty" would eventually change into some -6 loyalty trait that meant any turn spent out of a settlement would be my last (character turning rebel). Knowing it won't makes me feel much better.

I haven't even thought out my character's personality completely. :clown:
He has so few traits, even for a young, new general, it will be interesting to see what kind he accumulates as the game goes on. I'll probably take in account the ones that seem most interesting as I develop his personality :yes:

AussieGiant
11-21-2007, 01:27
Hi Zim,

At the start you can really use the traits to develop your character...it's only when they start piling up that you need to take a "broad brush" approach to it.

Some of them can be quite contradictory as time goes on.

Zim
11-21-2007, 01:49
I know AG, but at the start my character has all of three traits, Speaks of Loyalty, Religious, and the one that gives two stars. A pious traitor with a head for battle? :clown:

I think I'll have to pick up at least a few more to use to develop my character's personality. It'll be fun, even more than most new generals, my guy is a blank slate.

gibsonsg91921
11-21-2007, 01:59
haha peter is great attacker, great commander, promising commander, likes the dark, confident defender, and is poor against numbers (which reduces defense). go figure

AussieGiant
11-21-2007, 02:39
I know AG, but at the start my character has all of three traits, Speaks of Loyalty, Religious, and the one that gives two stars. A pious traitor with a head for battle? :clown:

I think I'll have to pick up at least a few more to use to develop my character's personality. It'll be fun, even more than most new generals, my guy is a blank slate.

lol,

good idea to wait given the circumstances.

AussieGiant
11-21-2007, 02:47
Hi All,

It's the battle of the dudes without out the game chaps.

Roadkill doesn't have the game installed and as his Duke I'm trying to put together a recruiting order for him.

I'm overseas and therefore can't check what he has.

Can someone post the number of units Lorenz Zirn has currently so I can place an order?

Cheers
AG

Northnovas
11-21-2007, 02:52
I will send you something now!

AussieGiant
11-21-2007, 03:00
Thanks NN

Zim
11-21-2007, 03:30
Gentlemen, I would like to inform you of several odd supposed coincidences I have noticed about the events in Swabia of 1330-1332. I believe they point to an inarguable conclusion.

First, Jan von Hamburg, king of Outremer, supposedly falls in battle at Bern, in central Swabia. Then, within 2 years, another man by the name of Jan, this time claiming to be "von der Pfalz" appears in Antwerp, arriving from, you guessed it, central Swabia. This man claims to be 22, but is completely bald.

The obvious conclusion? These Jans are one and the same! King Jan did not die at Bern, but suffered a blow on the head, lost his memory, joined a monastery in central Swabia for two years where he was forced to shave his head as part of his vows, then joined the services of Wolfgang Hummel.

I believe my logic to be beyond arguing with.

:clown:

TinCow
11-21-2007, 05:18
Stranger things have happened, such as Siegfried von Kastilien becoming Kaiser after Kaiser Jobst von Salza was killed by a stray catapult shot in a battle where Siegfried was a participant...

OverKnight
11-21-2007, 05:26
I respected Ituralde as a player, so I didn't assume it was fratricide, but I've always wondered, it was very convenient. :laugh4:

Turns out that flaming catapult shot changed the history of the Reich in many ways, ushering in the reign of Siegfried the Mad.

AussieGiant
11-21-2007, 05:32
There has been a couple of great twists in the game.

As much as we have previously been annoyed at the games allocation of succession it has made things very entertaining as we adjust the script to fit.

I like it in the end.

Is there even a remote chance of Arnold being able to marry one of these budding princesses?

And don't get all horrified...apart from the grey hair he still looks 30 :-)

He's a mature man now and the whoring has made way for more stable girlfriends...at least that is what I have in my mind.

Privateerkev
11-21-2007, 08:16
Is there even a remote chance of Arnold being able to marry one of these budding princesses?

Um...

Arnold and Elberhard are first cousins!!!!!!!

Ewwww.....

*blech*


:clown:

As for traits, I tried my best to rp every single one of Jan's traits. I did rank them based on strength so some came through more than others. While he did have over 13 chivalry, I made sure his "cruel and cunning" came out in politics. And so forth...


And Zim... no

:D

AussieGiant
11-21-2007, 08:23
I really couldn't care less lol

Cousin's, brothers, sisters...anything will do.

But aren't there other princesses out there PK?

Read the stories thread...make a decision :book:

Privateerkev
11-21-2007, 08:29
I really couldn't care less lol

*Barf*


Cousin's, brothers, sisters...anything will do.

*Baaaarf*


But aren't there other princesses out there PK?

Not that I know of.... *Baaaaarf*


Read the stories thread...make a decision :book:

*reads the story thread and sees nothing that stops him from barfing some more*


:clown: barfing could be from talk of Arnold marrying his cousin's daughter or from Kevin being quite drunk. You decide...

Zim
11-21-2007, 08:35
PK, obviously you are just trying to cover up since I'm so close to the truth. ~;p

Of course, if he isn't von Hamburg, my Jan would be one of the only characters not in the Kaiser's family tree somewhere, and a perfect match for one of his daughters.

:clown:

AussieGiant
11-21-2007, 08:46
I think he is barfing from drinking a little too much.

Still, pretty funny with the barf commentary :laugh4:

Zim
11-21-2007, 09:02
On a serious note, I think it's been fascinating reading up on how people have coped (and are coping) with the lack of available resources during the Cataclysm.

You have people taking armies out to attack and sack enemy territory (a la Fritz, and Hummel, although he actually kept the city), people finding ways to sack/confiscate resources in their own cities (Fritz again, plus some two or three others in the past, I believe), or making appeals to the people of their Duchy/Counties for soldiers (Peter, me, deguerra).

It's kind of cool to see all these things done, and says a lot about how people see their characters.

deguerra
11-21-2007, 09:23
well if i had more cities to sack i might go for that option, but the only nearby one is yours :idea2: :laugh4:

:clown:

Zim
11-21-2007, 09:33
well if i had more cities to sack i might go for that option, but the only nearby one is yours :idea2: :laugh4:

Over my dead body! :duel:

Quite literally, I guess, if you tried it :clown:

deguerra
11-21-2007, 09:40
well considering that currently youre the one with the army and the walls, whereas im all by my onesies, i have my doubts as to my siege capabilities. getting those bodyguards to dismount and push a battering ram is such a chore:furious3:

~;p

Zim
11-21-2007, 09:44
Just a friendly warning if you do try to storm my town. My men do spit over the wall from time to time. :clown:

I kind of lucked out in the French being more aggressive than the Danes, or Antwerp might be under siege. You'd have 2 wealth per turn and three shiny militia garrison units if Bruges hadn't been sieged in the very turn your guy was made.

Privateerkev
11-21-2007, 13:01
On a serious note, I think it's been fascinating reading up on how people have coped (and are coping) with the lack of available resources during the Cataclysm.

You have people taking armies out to attack and sack enemy territory (a la Fritz, and Hummel, although he actually kept the city), people finding ways to sack/confiscate resources in their own cities (Fritz again, plus some two or three others in the past, I believe), or making appeals to the people of their Duchy/Counties for soldiers (Peter, me, deguerra).

It's kind of cool to see all these things done, and says a lot about how people see their characters.

Don't forget having your avatar accidentally sparking a full blown religious war just so you can get him an instant full stack army to implement a political agenda. ;)


PK, obviously you are just trying to cover up since I'm so close to the truth. ~;p

I deny everything. :P

:clown:


I think he is barfing from drinking a little too much.

I deny everything.

And any drunken PM's I may, or may not have sent you, do not prove anything. :sweatdrop:

TinCow
11-21-2007, 13:04
Don't forget having your avatar accidentally sparking a full blown religious war just so you can get him an instant full stack army to implement a political agenda. ;)

Accidentally? I told you that would happen beforehand. :laugh4:

Privateerkev
11-21-2007, 13:08
Accidentally? I told you that would happen beforehand. :laugh4:

Yes, but for Jan it was an accident. For me, I wanted my avatar to have an army. That and I wanted to spark something fun and interesting for the game. :2thumbsup:

For Jan though, everything that resulted was quite a surprise. If he lived through Bern, he'd feel pretty bad about everything right now. :shame:

Zim
11-21-2007, 13:12
Yes, but for Jan it was an accident. For me, I wanted my avatar to have an army. That and I wanted to spark something fun and interesting for the game. :2thumbsup:

For Jan though, everything that resulted was quite a surprise. If he lived through Bern, he'd feel pretty bad about everything right now. :shame:

You certainly succeeded in that goal! :yes:

Privateerkev
11-21-2007, 13:21
You certainly succeeded in that goal! :yes:

Well, I was just the catalyst. OOC, I am blaming TC for everything. ;)

How dare TC tempt me with a nice shiny new army!!!

:laugh4:

Here is a "slightly" exaggerated version of the conversation between TC and I.


TC: If you put out a call against Dassel for religious reasons, I will spawn Jan a full army but; it will destroy the game, everyone will hate you both IC and OOC, I will kill your character, and I will come over to your apartment and eat your cat.

PK: a full army? WhooHoo!!!! :2thumbsup:

:clown:

Zim
11-21-2007, 13:24
Ooh! Ooh!, Tincow, can I get a full army, destroy the game, and have everyone hate me? Please?
I'll pass on the whole dying character thing, but you're welcome to eat the cat. :clown:

Privateerkev
11-21-2007, 13:29
but you're welcome to eat the cat.

Be sure to provide ketchup...

FactionHeir
11-21-2007, 13:42
I blame econ for telling me how Dassel could manage to escape in turn 5. If it weren't for that, I would have withdrawn south and waited for Jan.


:clown:

Actually, there is some truth in it :sweatdrop:

Privateerkev
11-21-2007, 13:50
I blame econ for telling me how Dassel could manage to escape in turn 5. If it weren't for that, I would have withdrawn south and waited for Jan.


:clown:

Actually, there is some truth in it :sweatdrop:



I'm actually quite amused that all three avatar deaths were a result of decisions each avatar made. It really does fit the fables that GH and Econ wrote at the end of the battle.

1.) Jan could have waited before hitting the square. But I assumed GH would come back into the city and I knew my army could not survive a grinding battle for the square. So I had to get there first, beat his reserve forces (which Jan did not know what they consisted of), and try to block the roads.

2.) Hans could have withdrawn south to join with Jan's cavalry which he could see way off in the southwest corner in the deployment zone. But he didn't want Dassel to escape and he wanted to make things easier for Jan's forces.

3.) Dassel could have spared Hans before surrendering. Such a move would have guaranteed his survival if captured. But he wanted some sort of victory out of this and wanted revenge on Hans for getting his old friend, Jens Hummel, killed in battle.

So, the more I think about it, the more I really like how the battle played out. :yes:

FactionHeir
11-21-2007, 13:56
I think Jan should have known about the forces in the square after the battle feedbacks. The map clearly showed that only Dietrich's cavalry had not been seen yet, so they had to be in the square (in addition to the side note by econ in the OOC thread).

While obviously we all are a tiny bit bitter, its interesting how each of us actively got our characters killed based on the level of feedback that we received.

Privateerkev
11-21-2007, 14:05
I think Jan should have known about the forces in the square after the battle feedbacks. The map clearly showed that only Dietrich's cavalry had not been seen yet, so they had to be in the square (in addition to the side note by econ in the OOC thread).

While it was simple for me to do a process of elimination based off of the army list in the Bern thread, I could not find a way to justify how Jan could know that IC. So, not wanting to meta-game, I played it as Jan not knowing it. As far as Jan knew, it could have been a single half regiment of peasants. So he rolled the dice and the rest, as they say, is history...


While obviously we all are a tiny bit bitter, its interesting how each of us actively got our characters killed based on the level of feedback that we received.

I'm not bitter at all. I went into the battle fully accepting the possibility of avatar death. You roll the dice and take your chances. :yes:

I wanted to have fun and a lot of the fun things in this game involve putting your avatar into risky situations. But to me, it was all worth it. Jan was fun to play and he went out with a bang. :2thumbsup:

GeneralHankerchief
11-21-2007, 14:17
I just wonder how it would have turned out if the cavalry had followed their final orders. Jan would have been countercharged and, I think, smashed. Wonder if that would have caused a rout.

FactionHeir
11-21-2007, 14:20
TBH, Cavalry charges in the streets tend to be very ineffective. They would however have better chances at striking at Jan's BG and isolating him from the rest of his BG there. However, charging of out the square would have made them vulnerable to routing and the infantry would have gotten to them faster.

In a way, your cavalry disobeying got Jan killed :grin:

Oh, and I always thought you wanted the cav to exit Bern and hit Hans' rear btw. That is what I would have done anyway.