AtB New Factions

[Malik of Sindh]

Hello AtB fans

We have decided to scrap Indo-greeks and now we need a new faction.Pharnakes wants shadow factions for Seleucids/Ptolies and Mauryans.The factions which are closest to inclusion are Kirat Nepal and Ethiopia.Plaese post what faction you woudl like in the minimod.

[CaesarAugustus]

Great, now you can add the Galatians! :tomato::tomato::tomato:


(On a serious note, I would advise against an Ethiopian faction because, as EB members have stated many time, they would only really have two units, spearmen and archers, and wouldn't make that interesting or formidible of a faction. A Nepalese faction would defienently be interesting, although I don't really know much about the people of ancient Nepal. Any good reading material or web sites on them?)

[russia almighty]

...Ethiopia would also have those swordsmen , archers and cavaliers .


Anyway I'd do Nepal .

[Malik of Sindh]

@Ceasar Augustus There you go,some info about the kirats.http://www.infoclub.com.np/nepal/history/history_kirat.htm

@russia_almighty I thought youre Ethiopian?Why don't you vote for Ethiopia then?

BTW,we have a free culture slot and 2 free faction slots,so any suggestions for both slots are welcome.

[icydawgfish]

How about Bithynia, Galatia, or maybe taking the current independent greek faction (KH) and use the free slot to make a new league such as the Aetolians.

[Malik of Sindh]

We are trying to focus on east.It is certain that we will not include any more factions in Asia Minor.They would conquer each other in a few turns.Theres no KH.Let me repost the faction list.

1. Kingdom of Macedon(Dark purple)
2. Kingdom of Pontus(Lighter purple)
3. Seleucid Empire(Silver)
4. Ptolemaic Empire(Yellow)
5. Satrapy of Bactria(Blue)
6. Kindom of Atropatene(Dark Red)
7. Hayasdan(Darkest Green)
8. Parthia(Hording possible)(Pink)
9. Saba(Dark orange)
10. Mauryan Empire(Tea green)
11. Pandya(Dark yellow)
12. Wusun Empire(Black)
13. Attalid Kingdom of Pergamon(Sky Blue)
14. Kingdom of cimmerian Bosphoran(Turquoise)
15. Free slot
16. Saka(Red)
17. Romans(emergent 220-160 BC)
18. Yuehzi(emergent 168 BC)
19. Kingdom of Cyrene(White)
20. Free slot

[icydawgfish]

Well I still think at least one faction in greece might be helpful to keep the Macedonians in check so they don't conquer the whole penninsula and go on a rampage somewhere with all that money stacked up. And another suggestion, how about the Sarmartians or Scythians to keep the Bosphorans in check.

[Diamondj]

Has anyone thought about the possibility of the Hasmonean dynasty? They wouldn't be that large or powerful but they would be a pretty nice buffer between the Ptolemies and the Selucids. Also there military would be made up of a unique mixture of both Hellenic and eastern influences.

[Malik of Sindh]

I never heard of the Hasmonean dynasty.Do you have any sites with info on them?

[Diamondj]

I never heard of the Hasmonean dynasty.Do you have any sites with info on them?
They were a Jewish kingdom that rebelled against the Selucids in Israel and established the first independent Jewish state since the Assyrians conquered Israel and Judah. Hannukah celebrates their successful uprising against the Greeks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_Dynasty

[Pharnakes]

We will not be having a jewish faction for the same reason that eb won't - they were never expansionist, if they would take judea and maybe syria, then just sit on it.

[overweightninja]

I notice you guys have mentioned shadow factions, have you considered using a method simmilar to that found in the upcoming RTR release? I'm afraid I don't know too much about it (haven't played RTR since I found EB) but as far as I gather they keep a faction slot or two free, then use batch files to change which shadow factions currently use the slot.
AFAIK this has been designed from the players point of view, to give them something to do as opposed to controlling AI expansion, however thought could still be useful if you haven't thought if it already.
Cheers

[Geoffrey S]

Why not work on what you've already got in that list? It's already a massive amount of work you've set yourself up for, if nothing else I'd suggest working on an initial version with an absolute minimum of (new) factions just to get the campaign up and running, adding in new factions as you go.

In other words, at least for the moment I'd suggest not aiming to fill all slots, but working on (and finishing) about two essential new factions and taking it from there. That's already a lot of work.

[TWFanatic]

It is odd that there is only one European faction. Perhaps you could add the Getai, and while you're at it, since you now have a barbarian culture, you could add the Galatians as well.:clown:


Sorry, I couldn't help myself.:shame:

[russia almighty]

Malik its because Ethiopia doesn't become one a power till the 300's . Thats when anyone would have to deal with horde's of both armored and unarmored soldiers .

[Pharnakes]

Why not work on what you've already got in that list? It's already a massive amount of work you've set yourself up for, if nothing else I'd suggest working on an initial version with an absolute minimum of (new) factions just to get the campaign up and running, adding in new factions as you go.

In other words, at least for the moment I'd suggest not aiming to fill all slots, but working on (and finishing) about two essential new factions and taking it from there. That's already a lot of work.


Don't worry, we're not going to go bust through over ambition, and tbh, these factions probs won't even be in the first beta anyway. We though we might as well get your opinions, though.


Don't feel like helping us do you?:beam:

[Spartan Soldier]

What do you think about Kalinga?

[Admetos]

That's already been discussed, we would have liked to have included them, but that'd just be silly seeing as they weren't around 3 months after the mod's start.

[Son of Perun]

I think Meroe would be a great faction for AtB. I know that there were many arguments against it so I've made a little research about Nubia and Meroe. You can read the facts I've found and decide whether to add this faction or not. Of course there would be problem with the culture slot, as Meroe needs one culture slot for itself (for portraits). The map seems to be more stretched to the south, so there will be enough place in east Africa for a new faction.

Facts about the Kingdom of Kush:

In 8th century BC Kushite kings conquered whole Egypt and began to rule as pharaohs (25th Dynasty). A variety of ancient texts Assyrian, Judahite and Greek show that in this period Kushite Egypt possessed a reputation for exceptional military prowess. An allusion by Isaiah to Kushite Egypt testifies to the impressiveness of its forces just prior to the showdown of 701. The prophet says Jerusalem seeks help from the 25th Dynasty's forces because of its "trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen." The Kushite period of Egypt was ended by the invasion of Assyria in 670BC.

The Kushites had their capital first at the city of Napata, then moved it to Meroe after they were conquered by the Assyrians.

Meroe's location at the convergence of a network of caravan roads with trade routes along the White and Blue Niles makes it East Africa's most important center of trade. The Nubians of the Meroitic Period manufacture richly decorated textiles, graceful decorated ceramic vessels, objects of bronze and iron, exceptionally fine gold and cloisonné jewelry, and other luxury items.

Meroë was the base of a flourishing kingdom whose wealth was due to strong iron industry, one of the oldest in Africa, which may have played an important role in the spread of ironworking in the continent. At the time, iron was one of the most researched metals worldwide, and Meroitic metalworkers were among the best in the world. The Meroites developed a method of gathering water into reservoirs for irrigation that is used in Sudan to this day. Although Meroitic culture preserved its pharaonic heritage and even imported some new fashions from Egypt, it increasingly went its own way, with new styles in art, local deities, and its own written language.

During the final century of the BC era, the kings of Meroe expanded their rule into Lower Nubia between the first and second cataract. This led to clashes with the Roman rulers of Egypt. A Meroite army attacked the border town of Syene in 23 BC and destroyed or seized a number of statues and other valuables. A bronze head of the Roman emperor Augustus, probably seized in this raid, was discovered by archaeologists at Meroe in 1912. The Meroite raid provoked a Roman counter attack which penetrated as far a Napata and caused much destruction. When the Roman army finally retired to Egypt, they took with them several thousand captives whom they sold into slavery. Despite this military setback, under the leadership of King Natekamani, who ruled from 12 BC to 12 AD, the Meroite kingdom recovered to reach the height of its power and artistic achievement. During Natekamani's reign the kingdom stretched from the Ethiopian foothills in the south to the first cataract in the north. The wealth of the period was displayed in the building of temples and palaces. Over the next two centuries relations with the Roman rulers of Egypt were normally cordial and Meroe contributed to the Roman expansion of trade through the Red Sea and into the Indian Ocean.


I know their unit roster wouldn't be very rich, but it wouldn't be very poor either. They could have spearmen, swordsmen, axemen, archers, light skirmishers, light and medium cavalry, chariots (not sure) and elephants. Pics of Nubian soldiers:

https://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4092/slide0018op800x703bt0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3255/troopseq4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

I think Meroe was historically important enough to be a faction. In fact the only bigger problem why it won't be included in EB2 is the lack of culture slots.

[Admetos]

Well I'm all for an African faction as that would really add something different to the mod, and luckily, we now have a free faction slot after getting rid of the Indo-Greeks.

[Pharnakes]

Over my dead body. Literaly.

If AtB sinks to a 2 unit faction, I will commit seppuku for the shame.


Finnal Period. <= that thing is a period, in case you didn't know.:clown:

[Admetos]

Yeah, ignore my last post, if you can give us some strong historical evidence for Meroe in 260 BC, preferrably about them having more than archers and spearmen, then maybe, but if not, then I totally agree with what Pharnakes is saying.

[Son of Perun]

If AtB sinks to a 2 unit faction, I will commit seppuku for the shame.

Did you read my post? It is pretty obvious that Meroe used more than just archers and spearmen.

[Admetos]

You said they *could* have more units, although you've shown no evidence to back this up. Also, there's no info there about them near our start date, the info jumps from 670 BC to 23 BC. I'm not against a faction in Africa, infact I'd love to have one, but it would basically be just archers and spearmen, and even if I want a faction in Africa, I wouldn't put one in with just two units.

[Son of Perun]

An allusion by Isaiah to Kushite Egypt testifies to the impressiveness of its forces just prior to the showdown of 701. The prophet says Jerusalem seeks help from the 25th Dynasty's forces because of its "trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen."

I know that this was four hundred years before your mod starts but I guess the warfare of the Kushites didn't changed that much. In such outlying regions the evolution of military was slower, so they still could have used the chariots and horsemen. I really don't think they would abandon more complex tactics in favour of a archer/spearmen tactic.

The Kushites would certainly have elephants - they were one of the biggest exporters of them in this period (the Kushite rebels start with elephants in EB).

For the rest of their army you can use the Aithiopikoi Hippeis, Toxotai, Machairaphoroi and Hanatim Kushim as the military in the region was much the same. From the picture I've posted you can see that Kushite soldiers also used axes.

After conquering Egypt, Meroe would also get some Egyptian units (Machimoi, Machimoi Hippeis).

Kushite armies were multi-ethnic and diverse. They employed siege warfare, built forts, and were famous archers. The Kushites also used elephants in war. According to Helidorus, the physique of the Kushites was generally better than that of the Persian invaders. Kushite skulls tended to be stronger. Some of the Kushite divisions included the Troglodytes who were famed to be good runners. In one battle scene, the writer states that Kushite archers were so skilled they would shoot their arrows with deadly accuracy at the eyes of their opponents hundreds of yards away across the battlefield.

So their unit roster would probably look like this:
1. Nubian light spearmen, troglodytai light infantry(?)
2. Nubian light cavalry, levy archers, light axemen, Machimoi
3. Ethiopian archers, spearmen, medium cavalry, Machimoi cavalry
4. Kushite chariots
5. Elephants, Kushite elite infantry(?)

Most of their these are already in EB, so you wouldn't have problems with modelling and skins.:yes:

:egypt: Possible faction icon for Meroe :egypt:
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/4350/astsudsiegelringvt5.gif (https://imageshack.us)

[Malik of Sindh]

Im not sure about including Kushites,but you are about to persuade me.I dunno what the other members think though.

[Admetos]

I really, really, really do want to include them, I can't emphasis that enough, but reading what the EB team thinks about it in the EB2 forum, I really can't see them being in because, and no offence Perun, I listen to what they've said and trust it more. As a kind rule for this mod, I think what would the EB team do, and they've explicitly said no Meroe in EB2 for various reasons, and for me, that means I just can't vote for them to be in, and I'm sure Pharnakes feels the same, so unless you can give us some hard historical evidence, they won't be in.

[Wolfman]

I'm kinda confused. I still don't understand why you can't include meroe.

[TWFanatic]

Have you thought about the Sarmatians?

Creating this mod would be a whole lot easier and faster if you included all the original EB factions included in the specified area on the map.

[Admetos]

@Wolfman, I did just sort of explain why we can't have Meroe...

@TWFanatic, I think we want to include as may new factions as possible, and our workload is already huge, so I guess we'll just have to cope.

[White_eyes:D]

What you have there is good enough for a beta so focus on that unless one region of the map gets rolled to early:inquisitive:

[Constantine the Great]

Getai would probably fit well, to make sure the Maks don't go crazy in thr Balkans.

[Malik of Sindh]

I don't know how much times ill have to repeat this,but we aren't including anymore factions in the west.

Admetos,take off my drunken response to a chat message from your sig :laugh4:

[Pharnakes]

So you admit you were drunk?

Underage!!!:laugh4:

[Diamondj]

I actually think Meroe would be pretty cool and I'm not really sure I agree with the idea that they won't have enough units. The main problem I can think of is balance, the fact that almost all their units would be so light ( since they are a desert faction) makes me think it would be hard for them to engage other civilizations on an equal footing. I suppose it could be tempered by lowering their cost and making elephants easier to access but that seems to only solve part of the problem.

[Son of Perun]

I really, really, really do want to include them, I can't emphasis that enough, but reading what the EB team thinks about it in the EB2 forum, I really can't see them being in because, and no offence Perun, I listen to what they've said and trust it more. As a kind rule for this mod, I think what would the EB team do, and they've explicitly said no Meroe in EB2 for various reasons, and for me, that means I just can't vote for them to be in, and I'm sure Pharnakes feels the same, so unless you can give us some hard historical evidence, they won't be in.

Thanks for response, Admetos.
Well, what to say? I guess you are right when you trust the EB team more than me, but don't forget that was a discussion about different mod with different requirements. If you have read the arguments for and against Meroe (I bet you have), you should know that the main problem in EB2 is the lack of culture slots. Remember that I'm not a historian, I'm only a fan, but I think that all the problems with Meroe could be easily solved in AtB. For example, there was a problem that in EB the Kushites wouldn't have enough space to expand and they would have to start a suicidal war with the Ptolemies. In AtB, Meroe would be able to expand in east Africa and become more powerful before the inevitable war. Also you could use the Egyptian portraits from the vanilla RTW, as the Kushites and the Egyptians were ethnically very close.

The arguments about historical relevance of this kingdom were, from my side of view, more than sufficient. The Meroe of this period was richer, bigger and stronger than some of the factions which are in AtB now. On top of that it was a kingdom that outlasted many other and repelled every attempt to conquer it (except the last one).

I'm sure that Pharnakes doesn't agree with me, but isn't that because he wants the shadow factions for the Seleucids and Ptolemies?:whip:

It would be nice if someone from EB team told his opinion to this topic (without starting the whole discussion from EB2 again.) :2thumbsup:

[TWFanatic]

I don't know how much times ill have to repeat this,but we aren't including anymore factions in the west.

No offense, but Macedon is going to be boring as hell. This is a shame for someone looking to recreate the empire of Alexander.

[Admetos]

Originally Posted by Son of Perun
Thanks for response, Admetos.
Well, what to say? I guess you are right when you trust the EB team more than me, but don't forget that was a discussion about different mod with different requirements. If you have read the arguments for and against Meroe (I bet you have), you should know that the main problem in EB2 is the lack of culture slots. Remember that I'm not a historian, I'm only a fan, but I think that all the problems with Meroe could be easily solved in AtB. For example, there was a problem that in EB the Kushites wouldn't have enough space to expand and they would have to start a suicidal war with the Ptolemies. In AtB, Meroe would be able to expand in east Africa and become more powerful before the inevitable war. Also you could use the Egyptian portraits from the vanilla RTW, as the Kushites and the Egyptians were ethnically very close.

The arguments about historical relevance of this kingdom were, from my side of view, more than sufficient. The Meroe of this period was richer, bigger and stronger than some of the factions which are in AtB now. On top of that it was a kingdom that outlasted many other and repelled every attempt to conquer it (except the last one).

I'm sure that Pharnakes doesn't agree with me, but isn't that because he wants the shadow factions for the Seleucids and Ptolemies?

It would be nice if someone from EB team told his opinion to this topic (without starting the whole discussion from EB2 again.)

Yeah, it would be great to get someone from the EB team to help us out on this. I don't think we have the same problems as the EB team to with putting them in EB2, because like you say, we've got enough room for them to expand and culture's no longer a problem, but I am still concerned about their unit roster. Like I said, it'd be great to have someone from EB give us their view on this and settle the arguement.

[Son of Perun]

I've continued in my research on Kushite military but it's damn hard to find anything about them. There are almost no archeological excavations in modern Sudan because of the civil war and also lot of ancient Kushite cities are lying on the bottom of the lake Nasser:whip: . But finally I've found something in the translations of classical texts:

Herodotus is mentioning the Kushites in his Histories, but it's about 200 years before AtB starts and thus a bit useless.

Where the south declines towards the setting sun lies the country called Ethiopia, the last inhabited land in that direction. There gold is obtained in great plenty, huge elephants abound, with wild trees of all sorts, and ebony; and the men are taller, handsomer, and longer lived than anywhere else. The Ethiopians were clothed in the skins of leopards and lions, and had long bows made of the stem of the palm-leaf, not less than four cubits in length. On these they laid short arrows made of reed, and armed at the tip, not with iron, but with a piece of stone, sharpened to a point, of the kind used in engraving seals. They carried likewise spears, the head of which was the sharpened horn of an antelope; and in addition they had knotted clubs. When they went into battle they painted their bodies, half with chalk, and half with vermilion.

I have found better account on Kushite army and weapons in Strabo's Geography, where he describes the war between the Romans and the Kushites.

They go naked, or wear skins only, and carry clubs. They deprive themselves of the foreskin, but some are circumcised like Egyptians. The Ethiopian Megabarae have their clubs armed with iron knobs. They use spears and shields which are covered with raw hides. The other Ethiopians use bows and lances. Some of the Troglodytae, when they bury their dead, bind the body from the neck to the legs with twigs of the buckthorn. They then immediately throw stones over the body, at the same time laughing and rejoicing, until they have covered the face. They then place over it a ram's horn, and go away. They travel by night; the male cattle have bells fastened to them, in order to drive away wild beasts with the sound. They use torches also and arrows in repelling them. They watch during the night, on account of their flocks, and sing some peculiar song around their fires. . . .

We have before related how Aelius Gallus, when he invaded Arabia with a part of the army stationed in Egypt, exhibited a proof of the unwarlike disposition of the people; and if Syllaeus had not betrayed him, he would have conquered the whole of Arabia Felix. The Ethiopians, emboldened in consequence of a part of the forces in Egypt being drawn off by Aelius Gallus, who engaged in war with the Arabs, invaded the Thebaïs and attacked the garrison, consisting of three cohorts, near Syene; surprised and took Syene, Elephantine, and Philae, a sudden inroad; enslaved the inhabitants, and threw down statues of Caesar. But Petronius, marching with less than 10,000 infantry and 800 horse against an army of 30,000 men, compelled them to retreat to Pselchis [former Maharraqa--now submerged beneath Lake Nasser], an Ethiopian city. He then sent deputies to demand restitution of what they had taken, and the reasons which had induced them to begin the war.

On their alleging that they had been ill-treated by the nomarchs, he answered, that these were not the sovereign of the country, but Caesar. When they desired three days for consideration, and did nothing which they were bound to do, Petronius attacked and compelled them to fight. They soon fled, being badly commanded, and badly armed; for they carried large shields made of raw hides, and hatchets for defensive weapons; some, however, had pikes, and others swords. Part of the insurgents were driven into the city, others fled into the uninhabited country; and such as ventured upon the passage of the river escaped to a neighboring island, where there were not many crocodiles on account of the current. Among the fugitives were the generals of the Candace, queen of the Ethiopians in our time, a masculine woman, and who had lost an eye. Petronius, pursuing them in rafts and ships, took them all and despatched them immediately to Alexandria. He then attacked Pselchis and took it. If we add the number of those who fell in battle to the number of prisoners, few only could have escaped.

I think I don't have to add that Strabo's view of the Kushites was a bit prejudiced. But from the information we can see that the Kushite unit roster in AtB would consist at least of spearmen, archers, axemen, swordsmen, clubmen and pikemen. I'm a bit concerned about the cavalry though. The Kushites certainly used cavalry, but before the AtB time-frame. I haven't found any mention of Kushite horsemen after they left Egypt in 671 BC. I guess it was because the area around Meroe wasn't suitable for breeding horses. This can be easily solved: after the Kushites conquer part of Egypt and hold it for certain time, a reform takes place and gives them access to cavalry (similar to the Indo-Saka reform).

[Malik of Sindh]

Not enough in my opinion.

[Admetos]

The info you've posted there Perun is from a war with the Romans, so this definetly dosen't show us a thing about what they'd be like in our mod, which starts in 260 BC. Also, could we PLEASE have an EB member give us a definitive view on this. I've read the threads in the EB2 forum, but near the end, Foot says that they won't be included because of culture. So, we'd really appreciate it if someone could finally settle this debate and tell us whether the EB team would include them if culture wasn't a problem.

[Geoffrey S]

Guys, it's your mod. If you don't feel comfortable deciding whether a faction should be included or not, well, it'll be a bumpy road for your team.

[Vorian]

Maybe, you should stick to those factions you have and use the slots for shadow factions. Since you don't want to add another European faction there is not much choice, Middle East was a place of great empires at that time, so you have few states.

Nothing wrong with that.

[Admetos]

Geoffrey S - It's not that we don't feel comfortable including them, we just want to know kind of unit roster they'd have from a proper historians point of view and also what the EB team would do in the situation, as if they would'nt include the faction in EB2 for reasons other than the hardcode limit on cultures, then we certainly won't be including them. Also, seeing as none of the team are proper historians, our knowledge of the faction is limited, so we'd like a bit of help from someone expirenced as to whether to include them or not.

Vorian - We may well end up using shadow factions, but we want to keep as many of the factions playable as possible.

[Son of Perun]

The info you've posted there Perun is from a war with the Romans, so this definetly dosen't show us a thing about what they'd be like in our mod, which starts in 260 BC.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik the first mention of Sweboz is from Caesar from the middle of the first century BC. We don't know almost anything about the military of Germanic tribes in 272 BC, but EB team decided to put them in. Why? Because they use logic. If an outlying nation, which hasn't got an opportunity to evolve, uses some kind of military at one time, it is very probable that it will use the same military a few hudred years later. The Kushites, like the Sweboz, were this kind of nation. So if they had axemen, spearmen, archers, etc. when fighting Romans, they probably had the same army composition 200 years before. Also when it comes to units, I really doubt you will find any historical record on, for example, Indo-Hellenic Noble Hoplite. Again it's just a matter of logic. The Indo Greeks ruled the north India and they surely had a kind of aristocracy and that aristocracy had to go to war sometimes and voila, a new unit. So if the Kushites used some kind of equipment in 700BC and then in 25BC, it really very probable they used it also in 260BC. But maybe you have different opinion on the whole thing, if so, I would like to hear it. I see that it is difficult for you to decide whether to add this faction or not, but I really don't see any reasons why not, as we have enough information to make a historical unit roster for them.:yes:


Not enough in my opinion.

Sorry, but this kind of response is a bit annoying. This is a discussion thread, so feel free to write something more, for example, why do you consider those information to be "not enough".

[Vorian]

@son of perun


I think the EB team has much more info on Sweboz military methods than what you can offer about the Kushites.

Of course the team will be able to make some units out of the descriptions but they will be "fantasy units", meaning they can't be historically backed and thus unfitting to a mod that wants to keep EB's historical approach.

[Malik of Sindh]

The units you listed are all very poor quality levies.The Kushites would be the weakest faction in AtB and they would get destroyed by Ptolies just like rebels.

[keravnos]

Very sad to see IG go, but it is completely understandable.

So far as new factions are concerned...



1. Kingdom of Macedon(Dark purple)
2. Kingdom of Pontus(Lighter purple)
3. Seleucid Empire(Silver)
4. Ptolemaic Empire(Yellow)
5. Satrapy of Bactria(Blue)
6. Kindom of Atropatene(Dark Red)
7. Hayasdan(Darkest Green)
8. Parthia(Hording possible)(Pink)
9. Saba(Dark orange)
10. Mauryan Empire(Tea green)
11. Pandya(Dark yellow)
12. Wusun Empire(Black)
13. Attalid Kingdom of Pergamon(Sky Blue)
14. Kingdom of cimmerian Bosphoran(Turquoise)
15. Free slot
16. Saka(Red)
17. Romans(emergent 220-160 BC)
18. Yuehzi(emergent 168 BC)
19. Kingdom of Cyrene(White)
20. Free slot



Taprobane? (Present day Sri Lanka)
Massagetae? On decline and about to disappear in about 30 years or so (don't remember now) but it could deffinitely make the case for inclusion, and was around at the start date.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Kos, please visit the Multimedia subforum there's a surprise for you!

[Pharnakes]

I doubt Taprobane will make it, Pandya is going to have a hard enough time surving the Mauryans as it is,without a rival.


The massagetae seem to be worh looking into, but the only info I could find (wiki:sweatdrop: ) seems to put them slap bang in the middle of seleukid gabiene?

[Tellos Athenaios]

AFAIK the Massagetae are a set of tribes (just like the Daha from which the Parni emerged) which have spread themselves from the borders with the Sauromatae to the Iranian plateau. For what it is worth, I think Herodotos mentions the Massagetae, and the Skythai et all to be all one big heap of tribes, sub tribes and tribal confedarations of nomadic peoples who are all in some way or another related to each other. And that's what, roughly 150 years before the mod's start? So it's mixed even more if anything by 272 BC, I suppose.

[Constantine the Great]

You guys are making it hard to fill the faction slots. Bithnyia, Cappadocia, Meroe, Galatia, all would be good additions.

The best thing I can think of that would fit what you're looking for would be Kalinga.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinga_%28India%29

They could provide an ally for Pandya and a good distraction for the Marayuans.

[Pharnakes]

Kos, please visit the Multimedia subforum there's a surprise for you!


Why do you have to spam our thread with tantalising hints as to what one might find in ebh?


Are you so cruel?


:bigcry:


EDIT: and yeah, I found those herodotos refrences, seems they had one wife each, but "pooled" them for the entire tribe :sweatdrop:

[CaesarAugustus]

I found those herodotos refrences, seems they had one wife each, but "pooled" them for the entire tribe :sweatdrop:


Sounds like a great idea to me! Why couldn't they have had more of an influence on modern society... ~:confused:

[Son of Perun]

The units you listed are all very poor quality levies.The Kushites would be the weakest faction in AtB and they would get destroyed by Ptolies just like rebels.

Then so would Cyrene. Historically in this period it was just a troublemaker which rebelled against the Ptolemies every time they were weakened. In the game Cyrene wouldn't have any other opportunity to expand than to start war with them and get destroyed.

@Vorian

That's great, but why you are comparing me to EB team? I surely didn't say that I have as many historical evidences on Meroe as they do on Sweboz.

I wasn't writing about any "fantasy units", so you probably misunderstood something.

[Malik of Sindh]

Didin't Cyrene have a campaing going,in which they were close to taking paraitonion?they weren't so weak as you say.And their units aren't levies only.


You guys are making it hard to fill the faction slots. Bithnyia, Cappadocia, Meroe, Galatia, all would be good additions.

The best thing I can think of that would fit what you're looking for would be Kalinga.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinga_%28India%29

They could provide an ally for Pandya and a good distraction for the Marayuans.

We already disscused Kalinga,and it was destroyed in 260 bc.Of course,it rebeled after Asokas death,but the rest of the team didin't want to include it.No more factions in Asia minor,its already overcrowded.

[Son of Perun]

Didin't Cyrene have a campaing going,in which they were close to taking paraitonion?they weren't so weak as you say.And their units aren't levies only.

Magas received the governorship of Cyrene from his mother Berenice. Following the death of Ptolemy I however, Magas tried on several occasions to wrestle independence for Cyrene, until he crowned himself king around 276 BCE. Berenice II, was the daughter of Magas of Cyrene. Magas then married Apama, the daughter of the Seleucid Empire king Antiochus I Soter, and used his marital alliance to foment a pact to invade Egypt. Apama and Magas had a daughter called Berenice II, who was their only child. He opened hostilities against his half brother Ptolemy II Philadelphus in 274 BCE, attacking Egypt from the west, as Antiochus I was attacking Palestine. However Magas had to cancel his operations due to an internal revolt of the Libyan nomad Marmaridae. In the east, Antiochus I suffered defeat against the armies of Ptolemy Philadelphus. Magas at least managed to maintain the independence of Cyrene until his death in 250 BCE, upon which the kingdom was almost immediately reabsorbed by Ptolemaic Egypt.

Considering that he attacked the Ptolemies when they were fighting with Antiochus and even after that he wasn't succesful, the Cyrene really wasn't a powerful kingdom. The independence of Cyrene also lasted only for the lifetime of Magas.

I think you are underestimating Meroe a bit, Malik. Their army didn't consist only from poor quality levies (poor levy usually wasn't equiped with swords). It is true that Strabo was describing them as "badly commanded, and badly armed" but it was because he was comparing their equipment and morale with the imperial legionaires, who were almost invincible force by that time.

Let's look on the whole think from a different side. If you add both Cyrene and Meroe, the Ptolemies will have to fight on multiple fronts. I doubt they would be able to focus on the remote southern border and crush Meroe. The Kushites would be able to expand and maybe even conquer part of Egypt. After conquering upper Egypt, the chances of Meroe would rise with the possibility to recruit Greek mercenaries, and it would become a force to be reckoned with. The 25th dynasty would be restored and Egypt would be ruled by its rightful Pharaohs once more. This is just an imagination of what would the campaign for Meroe look like.

Unit roster for Meroe: 1. Levy spearmen, skirmishers 2. levy archers, light axemen, Machimoi 3. Ethiopian archers, spearmen, swordsmen, Machimoi Hippeis 4.Greek mercenary infantry (consisting of settled Greeks) 5.Elephants

Your opinion, AtB team?

[Malik of Sindh]

My opinion?No ethiopians.

[Son of Perun]

My opinion?No ethiopians.

So you're not going to add them? Well, whatever. C'est la vie.

Then I would suggest the Nabateans and maybe a kingdom in Caucasian Iberia (Kartli or Colchis). They were discussed as the possible candidates in EB2 forum.

[Wolfman]

Seconded on the Nabateans!

[Malik of Sindh]

Why are you so sure we aren't going to include them?Were a democracy here,Im not the mod leader.Anyway,Pharnakes votes no on ethiopians.Nabateans sounds good,just like the Georgian factions.

[Malik of Sindh]

I have spoken with Admetos and Pharnakes,and now Ethiopian case is closed.Sorry,fans of ethiopia.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Why do you have to spam our thread with tantalising hints as to what one might find in ebh?

~ To get Keravnos' attention where I needed it. If he helps me first before helping you guys further, then my guess is you'll have to wait a while. :yes:

~ I could give you a sample of what you might find on EBH... You wouldn't understand anyway. :shrug:

~ On second thoughts, if you really want to find out - you can (albeit a slightly outdated version), it's been public for months.

[Son of Perun]

I have spoken with Admetos and Pharnakes,and now Ethiopian case is closed.Sorry,fans of ethiopia.

That's why I was so sure. And btw, there is a difference between Ethiopia and Kush.

Have the AtB team already decided on the 2 remaining factions?

[Admetos]

I think Malik meant fans of that general area.

We've decided on one of two remaining slots, if you had a look at the main thread I suppose you'd know that...

[Son of Perun]

Any progress made in choosing the last faction? It seems the work on mod is about to start and one slot is still free.

[Admetos]

It's still being debated, but it's not like we need to know all of the factions right now. We may even decide to leave the last faction slot open until after the beta and use it where it is most needed for balance.

[Son of Perun]

Yeah you're right, the faction can be chosen later. But, just for curiosity, which are the candidates?

[Admetos]

A faction that's previously been discussed is once again back in the frame, but that's the only idea for a faction that we're thinking about at the moment. Like I said, the other idea is to wait until after the beta, and then a region that need's balancing will gain another faction, but it's hard to say where that could be.

[Wolfman]

I hope its bithynia (crosses fingers)

[Malik of Sindh]

You are terribly mistaken.No more Asia Minor factions.

400th post!

[Wolfman]

..........Indo Greeks?! (collapses from sheer ecstasy and hope) Please let it be Indo Greeks?!

[Malik of Sindh]

..........Indo Greeks?! (collapses from sheer ecstasy and hope) Please let it be Indo Greeks?!

...No.

[Athkara]

Wow Malik, you crush peoples' hopes like it's your job.:laugh4:

[Malik of Sindh]

I am exelent at that,aren't I?

[mrtwisties]

Galatians!

[Malik of Sindh]

Hah,Im not Pharnakes,you can't make me angry with this word.

[mrtwisties]

They must surely be the faction that you're considering putting in.

[Pharnakes]

Obcenities!!! Get out of my thread!!:furious3:

No, no galatains, I'm afraid cause they would need a unique culture, also asia minor is too full.

[Morte66]

If you're still reading votes, I'll vote for Kirat Nepal with Nabataea second.

[Malik of Sindh]

Nabataea is in.We still haven't decided the last faction,we will keep it free until beta.

[White_eyes:D]

oh.......well any new ideas or thoughts???

[Malik of Sindh]

Maybe you should read the disscusion thread?We are starting in thursday.

[KuKulzA]

What do you think about Kalinga?
Asoka's Kalinga campaign wasn't totally successful and was extremely bloody...
it was against the Tamils in the south...

I'm almost done drawing up a rough diagram of Mauryan's buildings and units.... but trying to get the right Indian language names for these... ugh... we shoulda done China, I'd be WAY more useful :laugh4:

[Malik of Sindh]

The currentily disscused faction is Kalinga....Im trying to persuade the other members into including it,but they simply don't want to listen to me.


Obcenities!!! Get out of my thread!!:furious3:

I thought this thread was mine.

[Christianus]

I want Ethiopia!

[Malik of Sindh]

I want Ethiopia!
You will not get it.Like I said,Ethiopian case is closed.

[Son of Perun]

Ehm...wasn't Kalinga annexed by Maurian empire 4 years before your mod starts? It would be a better idea to reconsider Kush, really.

[Admetos]

To quote what Malik said:

Ethiopian case is closed.
Note the word in bold.

[Son of Perun]

It would be a better idea to reconsider Kush, really.

I was referring to Kush (in modern Sudan) not to Ethiopia.

Why it was closed anyway?

[Admetos]

I was referring to that general area. And the fact that you were talking about Kush makes absolutley no difference what so ever.

[Malik of Sindh]

Why it was closed anyway?
Because all the team members decided to close it?

[White_eyes:D]

Because all the team members decided to close it?
Well even if you spit on me if your mod is anywhere near as good as EB I will still
walk 10,000 miles for you, even with this weird endless dispute on factions.....:juggle2:

[Pharnakes]

We like spamming. Pointless arguments over factions adds to our post count :tongue3:

[Wolfman]

what about another Caucasus faction? Like an Iberian kingdom.

[Malik of Sindh]

We disscused this already,no another caucasus faction.

[Wolfman]

Oh ok. Sorry.

[Malik of Sindh]

Even if we decide the last faction,we won't tell which faction it is.

Why?

Because I want to torture you!

MUHHAhhahaAHHAH!

HHAHaha.

OK,maybe we'll tell you all someday.

Continue posting suggestions,we still have no idea about the last faction.

[Wolfman]

I was wondering what about the Sauromatae? They would be just another nomadic faction like the saka, yuezhi, Wusun(correct me if i'm wrong about Wusun), Pahlava.

[Admetos]

Personally, I think that three nomadic factions is enough. Also, I'd perfer to add another new faction than keep an old one.

[Son of Perun]

Maybe it's a stupid idea, but I think a better starting date would be around 200 BC. Then it would be possible to add Indo-Greeks without any major changes to other factions.

[Alexandros Maximus]

whats a Wusun?

[Admetos]

The Wusun are a faction.

EDIT: Welcome to the Guild! :ave:

[Tellos Athenaios]

Who are the Wusun, you mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wusun

[Alexandros Maximus]

thx for that...i shoulda thought to look on wiki...

Ave everybody....

[Athkara]

A start date of 200 BC wouldn't work, if only for the reason that the Xiongnu empire would be at its height -- controlling practicaly everything north of the Hymalayas as far west as the Aral Sea.:book:

[Son of Perun]

A start date of 200 BC wouldn't work, if only for the reason that the Xiongnu empire would be at its height -- controlling practicaly everything north of the Hymalayas as far west as the Aral Sea.:book:

The Xiongnu could be a problem, but changing the starting date to 200 or to 180 BC would have also some advantages. At least the situation in India would be much more interesting than it is now: The Indo-Greek kingdom was founded in 180bc and the rest of the country was divided into many battling kingdoms like Sunga, Satahavana and Pandya, with the Sakas knocking on India's gates. With no dominant power like the Mauryan empire it would be more fun to play in India IMHO. I'm not sure about the situation north of the Hymalayas, but weren't the Yuezhi defeated and forced to migrate in 176BC?

My only source of these informations is Wikipedia, so feel free to correct me:sweatdrop: .

https://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4923/yuehchihmigrationsvu0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4923/yuehchihmigrationsvu0.b57a36f5cc.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=529&i=yuehchihmigrationsvu0.jpg)
https://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7857/500pxindogreekcampaingsxj4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7857/500pxindogreekcampaingsxj4.2244785f22.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=529&i=500pxindogreekcampaingsxj4.jpg)
https://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7352/500pxsungaempiremapaz0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7352/500pxsungaempiremapaz0.acbbf5bdee.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=529&i=500pxsungaempiremapaz0.jpg)

[Admetos]

I think moving to 200 BC or 180 BC is moving too far away for EB's start, and I'm sure the other team members feel the same.