Faction Thread 9: Brettonnia

[Bwian]

placeholder

[Krazysigmarite]

One T, two Ns
Bretonnia
:laugh4:

[Eufarius]

lol.:2thumbsup:

[tito]

one unit proposition:
Bretonnian Grail Pilgrims

[Enthes]

has this faction been started on yet or are you all busy on others?

[A Norseman]

I think they have made the basic spearmen unit.

I dont know why they stopped pruduction.

[DrZoidberg]

I think they have made the basic spearmen unit.

I dont know why they stopped pruduction.

But do they have any fancy pants units? Isn't it only down to simple re-skinning of banners and tabbards? Griffons are hardly in the pipeline are they? If so this faction should be the least to worry about?

[Meneldil]

But do they have any fancy pants units? Isn't it only down to simple re-skinning of banners and tabbards? Griffons are hardly in the pipeline are they? If so this faction should be the least to worry about?

Bwian stated that there wouldn't be simple re-skinning of vanilla MTW units in WTW.
Furthermore, bretonnian armies don't really look like your average MTW army.

[ellydog]

I know that there is a men at arms unit done(not sure if 100% done).It should be somewhere in the first eye candy thread.

[Krazysigmarite]

I posted a WIP of men-at-arms a while back, but paused production on Bretonnia due to the difficulty of making a variety of heraldry/colours without looking silly. Essentially, you can't make knights go to the correct horse, with the correct shield, with the correct colours - all the pieces are randomized.

[tito]

there not a lot of units for this faction;how can we play with this bretonian army(only knight and poor infantry).It is very interesting to plays with this faction?
there is not so much strategy w:no: ith it!!!!!

[Enthes]

im sure when they are done they will have archers a variety of knights, Pegasus knights! and also trebaches (however you spell it)
so they will be interesting to play

[Jonlissla]

Pegasus knights!

IIRC, flying units could NOT be added in the game.

However, I'm also kinda worried about the Bretonnian unit list. They don't have excactly that many troops. Sure, they will problably own the battlefield with their knights, but I'm kinda curious about sieges instead. A bunch of Men-At-Arms climbing the ladders just to face a whole line of Black Orks will problably rout them, so sieges should be difficult for the Brets.

One solution would be to add some kind of regional units for them as well. Or make their infantry very upgradable, OR, he could add dismounted knights (yes, they exists). That should take care of the infantry part, but it wouldn't make Bretonnia as the "Cavalry-Only" faction.

[Landwalker]

Bretonnia has access to siege equipment, in particular the trebuchet, and I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to have access to smaller-scale basic siege equipment as well (namely catapults). They could also employ sapping points, assuming this is possible. Between the two, I think Bretonnia has plenty of options for getting past the walls in a siege assault.

The biggest problem I would foresee for Bretonnia in sieges has nothing to do with the walls, but with their roster. Urban pathfinding and maneuverability in Medieval II is abominable, and, as you pointed out, Bretonnia doesn't have the most impressive infantry roster and may have to rely on their cavalry. If the enemy has even a few spears, however, this can be disastrous.

As you suggested, I think the best solution would be to include dismounted versions of the Bretonnian knights (Dismounted Knights of the Realm, Dismounted Questing Knights, Dismounted Grail Knights) to give the Bretonnians a bit of an infantry oomph for those situations when running around on horses might not be the most advisable course of action.

Cheers.

[fireblade]

Or they will just have to starve out enemy settlements.

I don't think Bretonnians should have dismounted knights. In Warhammer, there are no dismounted knights either, and by adding dismounted knights, bretonnians will lose their all-cavalry aura. They can blast like 6 holes in a wall before attacking, so you will need a lot of spears to stop them from charging through that.

Fireblade

[Jonlissla]

In Warhammer, there are no dismounted knights either, and by adding dismounted knights, bretonnians will lose their all-cavalry aura.that.


That's one of the problems, but it's also perhaps one of the solutions. You could add dismounted knights, but perhaps at a very small amount. So you can only recruit, like, 1 every turn.
OR, perhaps add some units that doesn't really exists in the Bretonnian roster, like Landwalker said.
OR, you could leave it the way it is now (bad infantry, badass cavalry), as the Bretonnians made a vow to protect, not invade. GW (or the maker of the Brets) said it themselves; if the Bretonnians would forget their vows to their land, they would quickly stomp the other races, and prove to be a very powerful threat, IF they weren't so driven by honour, that is. :shame:

[Landwalker]

They can blast like 6 holes in a wall before attacking, so you will need a lot of spears to stop them from charging through that.

Not so. Because of the layout of cities, you can simply plug the streets instead of the breeches. Because of the horrific urban pathfinding, cavalry have a hard time at best (and are utterly incapable, at worst) of charging down city streets, making them fodder for a decent spear unit barring the way to the town center.

I don't think that, just because Games Workshop doesn't offer rules/models for unhorsed or dismounted cavalry, that it should be completely neglected. There has to be some small amount of common sense employed, and in the absence of a Medieval-I-style mechanic where you can dismount your cavalry during the deployment stage, that means that there should be at least some availability of dismounted knights in recruitment. As Jonlissa pointed out, an easy way to limit this would be to set the cap at one for a given foot knight type (much in the way the current game has caps of 3-4 for a lot of units, so no more than that is ever available at one time), and to give them a relatively long "recharge" rate (say, five turns).

I don't know much about what typifies the table-top game, but Warhammer has never given me the impression (as an outsider to the game, at least) of being very focused on siege battles. It seems intended for field battles, and in this regard it would make sense for the Bretonnians to only use cavalry (and for only cavalry to be produced for them by GW). However, you'll have a hard time convincing me that they are so foolish and stubborn as to refuse dismounting during an assault when it would be to their advantage--and if the enemy can effectively wall off all avenues to the central square and stand, impervious to cavalry, that's exactly when it would be advantageous to go it on foot.

I suppose the end result of all this ranting is this: If you look at the miniatures for Bretonnia, and discount all of the leaders and unit characters, as well as the pegasus knights, Bretonnia only has eight units (of which two are the Grail Reliquae and the Trebuchet). The average faction in Medieval II has something like 20+. I don't think that, just because a unit isn't produced by Games Workshop, it should be omitted in the face of reason if it would make sense for a faction to have it, nor should Bwian et al. feel wholly constrained by the fairly limited rosters typical of tabletop wargaming factions.

Cheers.

[Eufarius]

Well mercenaries seems the only way to satiate this debate. I guess...

[DrZoidberg]

Well mercenaries seems the only way to satiate this debate. I guess...

Bretonnia doesn't employ mercenaries. It's a special feature with them.

[Eufarius]

Sorry about that I completely forgot, but then how do you solve the dilemma?

[Landwalker]

I don't think mercenaries would really solve it anyway, as the point about limited tabletop rosters vs. mod-game rosters stands for all factions. The dwarves have 11 units, of which four are siege engines. The Empire has ten (of which two are siege engines and one is a tank). The Vampire Counts have twelve. The Skaven have thirteen (including all their warp artillery stuff). The Orcs have by far the most I can find, at 22 (four siege engines).

The point is, if a faction in the tabletop game has such a limited number of unit types as Bretonnia, the Dwarves, the Empire, etc., I don't see any reason that the roster can't be expanded using a little creativity and common sense.

Cheers.

[Eufarius]

I guess, well see what Bwian has to say. My opinion is to give them some more foot units (made up or actual ) so as to balance out the sieges( not just Knights attacking), but on the field Knights ALL THE WAY!!!

[fireblade]

Cruel as it may seem, to attack castles and cities, Bretonnian counts do sent their men at arms/ peasants forth to take the walls, even promising to knight them if they survive.(if they do however, they never get knighted)

I think the knights are just too arrogant to ever dismount. Their horse is what separates them from peasants, after all.

In warhammer, there are not as many sieges as in MTW2. And if their is a siege, the attacker always outnumbers the defender by 2:1.
In MTW2 it's the same, how many times has the ai succeeded in capturing a fully garissoned city/castle? They only take them if they attack you where your defences aren't as strong.

I think we can compare the bretonnians to the mongols, mostly cavalry. the mongols are far stronger on the field than when attacking a city, it's simply their strength/weakness.

I would not like to see dismounted bretonnian knights, they just don't fit in my point of view. If there was to come another unit, then it could, maybe (don't like that much either) some improved men at arms for some reason (assigned to guard a grail chapel or something) and make them really rare.

Fireblade

[Taranaich]

Why not split the Men-at-Arms into different divisions based on their weaponry? There'd be the base Men-at-Arms unit, but researching and buildings could offer more specialized variations to fill out the roster:

Men-at-Arms
Typical Man-at-Arms unit, armed with simple spears and shields. Jack-of-all-trades but master of none.
Spearmen-at-Arms
Men-at-Arms trained in the use of defensive and anti-cavalry tactics, with good defense but little attack value except against cavalry. Armed with spears and shields.
Swordsmen-at-Arms
Men-at-Arms specializing with swords, trained in flanking and assaulting formations. Armed with swords and shields.
Heavy Men-at-Arms
Men-at-Arms that specialize against heavily armoured foes. Armed with axes, maces, flails, hammers and shields.
Halberdiers-at-Arms
Men-at-Arms equipped with halberds and the bonuses and versatility the weapon offers, but without shields.
Veteran Men-at-Arms
Those Men-at-Arms who survive assaults but don't receive the knighthoods they deserve, very strong assault infantry. Armed with two-handed weapons like greatswords, warhammers, mauls and the like, but without shields.

And there's an extra five units for Bretonnia without having to make up units, since they are all choices available for Men-at-Arms on the table top game. :2thumbsup:

[Eufarius]

Good Lord Taranaich is a genius!

[fireblade]

Taranaich is a genius!

Couldn't agree more, a brilliant solution to a complex problem.

THey shouldn't have a high morale though (except for the veterans, who believe they are close to being knighted, poor fellows)

Fireblade

[Eufarius]

Couldn't agree more, a brilliant solution to a complex problem.

THey shouldn't have a high morale though (except for the veterans, who believe they are close to being knighted, poor fellows)

Fireblade
Too bad they won't !!!!!.. rite on to better matters, yes the veterans should have higher morale, the men-at-arms should have something near the M2TW's peasants morale( you know they themselves being peasants).
The thing is that the specialists should have higher morale simply because they are specialists and have had better training in their weapon than the normal men-at-arms.

[Taranaich]

Well, if I'm such a genius, Eufarius, why didn't you vote for me? *shakes fist and grumbles angrily* I kid, I kid, I voted for Alletun too. :beam:

I'd say the bonuses wouldn't be too pronounced, but enough that a sufficient number of them could be useful in situations, and offer more leeway for the player. For example, a unit of Heavy men-at-arms would not be able to defeat a unit of heavily-armoured professional soldiers on their own, but they'd offer much more damage than a regular men-at-arms unit before they route or are relieved by reinforcements. Similarly, Spearmen-at-Arms would hold a line a bit longer than regulars, swordsmen would have slightly higher fighting skill, and the like.

Also, having looked at the models I noticed that the halberd figures have shields, so they'd still function like normal halberdiers, but use them as spears, or maybe in the same way as the Hallbruders in Kingdoms. There are also some halberdiers without shields (http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/index.php?option=com_ponygallery&func=watermark&id=27&Itemid=32) here.

I should add that the weapon choices I looked at were from Mordheim rules, so I'm not sure if they're supported by the main game: however, I have definitely seen miniatures with swords, maces, spears and halberds:

http://legendsofhyerune.com/Warhammer/men_at_arms.gif
Swords, spears and halberds

http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics8/img43519901dbbbe.jpg
Two men-at-arms with maces in the centre

Since the Medieval engine can't have more than one animation for its units, it would actually be pragmatic to split up the men-at-arms into those using spear, sword and mace animations. I'm sure a few variants can be added (axes and flails for Heavies, bills, guisarmes and voulges for halberdiers etc)

An alternative to "Veteran Men-at-Arms" would be a unit of Yeoman Wardens: normally a commander unit, since Total War boosts the numbers far beyond the tabletop game perhaps small units of them could be fielded. They'd therefore function as a quarter-way stage between knights and peasants.

[Eufarius]

That's what I said...just WAy more detailed.
btw I did vote for you.

[Taranaich]

Really? Oh, cheers big man!

Another thought: While dismounted Bretonnian knights might be somewhat uncharacteristic, what about Yeomans?

http://uk.games-workshop.com/bretonnia/miniature-gallery/images/mounted-yeomen.gif


As they hold such privileged positions as head gaolers and militia sergeants, to become a yeoman is the highest rank to which a peasant can aspire. It takes many years of dedicated service for a man-at-arms to be so promoted, and even then only an act of bravery on the battlefield will guarantee his ascension. Though no peasant may ride the steeds of the Bretonnian lords, favoured yeomen are permitted to ride to battle on draught horses. Such troops will often scout ahead of the main army and keep the knights informed of enemy movements - a dangerous task, and one which earns no honour, so it is a task that the nobility believe is best performed by peasants.

All men-at-arms dream of one day becoming a yeoman, possibly because of the folk stories that tell of yeomen being raised to knighthood after performing a great service or some brave deed. The truth is that it is almost unheard of for a peasant to be elevated in this way - the nobility have no wish to sully their ranks with low-born commoners.

A unit of Mounted Yeomen may be included in your Bretonnian army as a Special choice.

Maybe Yeomans could be a special infantry choice, perhaps as spearmen. Maybe even Yeoman Swordsmen, Heavy Yeomen, Yeoman Halberdiers etc... but I'm getting ahead of myself.

[Eufarius]

Yeoman sounds good but maybe not the riding version just dismounted version and they could be like a spearman or a swordsman unit.

[adembroski]

As a player of Brettonnia myself, here's my suggestion... only create the units as they are.

Yes, that means very weak infantry and a difficult time in seige warfare. This is not a bad thing, however, it's very flavorful for the faction.

A Bretonnian army is not going to hide behind it's own castle walls, it's going to charge out. Thus it's lack of defensive siege units is not a problem.

A Bretonnian army is going to try to get it's opponent to do the same. You can besiege a settlement just fine with any sort of force... regardless of whether you're able to assault it. Let Brettonnian players adjust their tactics to the army, as is the norm in Warhammer anyways.

[tito]

for some good fanatic infantry use:Bretonnian Grail Pilgrims

[Jonlissla]

Good Lord Taranaich is a genius!

Very good idea! Even though I think most Bretonnian Lords wouldn't spend their fortune on armour and weapons on meagre peasants, it is a very good idea.
Perhaps upgrading you blacksmith will yield more versions of the Men-At-Arms, and upgrading your keep or town hall will bring those veteran guys into the game as well. Good idea. Afterall, the modding possibilities of Warhammer is endless. :beam:

[Enthes]

As a player of Brettonnia myself, here's my suggestion... only create the units as they are.

Yes, that means very weak infantry and a difficult time in seige warfare. This is not a bad thing, however, it's very flavorful for the faction.

A Bretonnian army is not going to hide behind it's own castle walls, it's going to charge out. Thus it's lack of defensive siege units is not a problem.

A Bretonnian army is going to try to get it's opponent to do the same. You can besiege a settlement just fine with any sort of force... regardless of whether you're able to assault it. Let Brettonnian players adjust their tactics to the army, as is the norm in Warhammer anyways.

i couldn't agree more warhammer has it so most of the factions play completely differently and because of this it is great i would hate to see all the factions with the same types of units with the same tactics each time.

[Taranaich]

As a player of Brettonnia myself, here's my suggestion... only create the units as they are.

Yes, that means very weak infantry and a difficult time in seige warfare. This is not a bad thing, however, it's very flavorful for the faction.

A Bretonnian army is not going to hide behind it's own castle walls, it's going to charge out. Thus it's lack of defensive siege units is not a problem.

A Bretonnian army is going to try to get it's opponent to do the same. You can besiege a settlement just fine with any sort of force... regardless of whether you're able to assault it. Let Brettonnian players adjust their tactics to the army, as is the norm in Warhammer anyways.

Well, technically my unit suggestions are based only on what I saw on the tabletop: there are Men-at-Arms wielding different weapons, but since the Medieval engine can't have more than one animation to a unit, having Men-at-Arms just use one type of weapon doesn't reflect the variety of weapons available to the unit. It just seemed common sense to split the men-at-arms into different squadrons with minimal bonuses to make them a bit different, much like how tabletop players themselves would fiddle about with the individual stats and wargear of their troops.

If nothing else, you could just choose to be a traditional Bretonnian player yourself and stick religiously to the "standard" unit list. :2thumbsup:

[Eufarius]

Well, technically my unit suggestions are based only on what I saw on the tabletop: there are Men-at-Arms wielding different weapons, but since the Medieval engine can't have more than one animation to a unit, having Men-at-Arms just use one type of weapon doesn't reflect the variety of weapons available to the unit. It just seemed common sense to split the men-at-arms into different squadrons with minimal bonuses to make them a bit different, much like how tabletop players themselves would fiddle about with the individual stats and wargear of their troops.

If nothing else, you could just choose to be a traditional Bretonnian player yourself and stick religiously to the "standard" unit list. :2thumbsup:
That's what i meant adembroski(sp?)

[Meneldil]

Or they will just have to starve out enemy settlements.

I don't think Bretonnians should have dismounted knights. In Warhammer, there are no dismounted knights either, and by adding dismounted knights, bretonnians will lose their all-cavalry aura. They can blast like 6 holes in a wall before attacking, so you will need a lot of spears to stop them from charging through that.

Fireblade

Well, there are, obviously, dismounted knights.

The previous Bretonnian army bood had them listed, and it seems pretty obvious that knights would dismount if needed, especially for siege battles, where they would be the firsts to climb the assault ladders.

The true issue is the lack of mount/dismount option, like there used to be in MTW, meaning that dismounted knights would suck up another unit/model slot.

[fatma]

just an idea

i reckon, if its possible, that bretonnian armies should not be able to ambush. i think this is fluffy and represents their chivalry and honour vows pretty well

[Eufarius]

welcome to the forums, and that sounds like a good idea.

[Jonlissla]

The previous Bretonnian army bood had them listed

Got any pics? :book:



Has anyone noticed how huge Bretonnia must be? If you can spew out about 40 knights (considering the amounts of soldiers in one unit in MTW2, otherwise 8 knights in one regiment), and each one of them has a small castle, not to mention their own Men-At-Arms.... well, doesn't that make Brettonia like a big hedgehog-like country? I'm not sure if each and of them had a castle, but the fluff says so.

[Di Asturien]

Hello there to everyone.
You could say I am an ambassador from the Roundtableofbretonnia.org website to check how things are going with this mod, but quite simply im just here to later post important updates in a thread back in our keep.
Practically though, ill just be giving my opinions about issues and maybe answer a few questions regarding fluff:book:.

Can't wait for this to come out, am both a fan of Bretonnia and the Total war series :beam:





Also, regarding the fluff affirmation. It is not completely correct, every ELDEST son being a knight will get the fief until/unless he decides to go on the grail quest. This means the younger sons will usually either go out to carve a fief for themselves or become household knights of their family keep or of another family.
We could assume a large keep would have 500-1000 men@arms and 40-60 household knights

[Di Asturien]

Apparently you can only post urls after having a first post, so here is my double post:

Jonlissla, heres a pic: http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/index.php?option=com_ponygallery&Itemid=32&func=detail&id=63

and another of an unnoficial unit: http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/index.php?option=com_ponygallery&Itemid=32&func=detail&id=445#ponyimg

[Eufarius]

Welcome to the forums and I think Bwian would say thanks for the links.

[Underway]

As far as foot troops I agree with the idea that we should not make to many versions of men at arms. The whole point of men at arms is that they are wimpy and need to assault a castle in MASS numbers (like skaven) to get in and do some damage.

The Bretts have a trebuchet to knock down walls, a tonne of knights to exploint the gap, and could bring a bunch of cheap troops to take the walls and fight through the streets.

They have longbowmen as well.

Finally the Grail relaque pilgrims are actually a pretty good unit that rarely breaks. Build a bunch of them and you should have no problems taking the walls from an enemy. Knights may have issues fighting in cities but combine with a grail pilgrims and they should be just fine in a siege.

However historically in Warhammer Bretts (before the most recent army book) men at arms did take spears into battle. There are old unit pictures around somewhere.

I would recommend however that we don't over foot troop the bretts. The whole issue with them is that they are cavalry, and the peseants are foot troops. You change the balance of the list too much and they stop becoming bretts, they become France. This is a warhammer mod, not a rehash of MTW2 with different skins.

[Jonlissla]

I would recommend however that we don't over foot troop the bretts. The whole issue with them is that they are cavalry, and the peseants are foot troops. You change the balance of the list too much and they stop becoming bretts, they become France. This is a warhammer mod, not a rehash of MTW2 with different skins.

The infantry can suck how much they want, it's the cavaly that's the strong point of Bretonnia. They have one simple role in a Bretonnian amry; and that's to make sure the enemy stands still so the knights can charge from the flank. They're meatshields, nothing else.

So it doesn't really matter how MANY infantry units you can have, it's the STRENGTH that matters. As long as they don't have any infantry unit that can contend with any stronger creature, like a Black Ork or something, Bretonnia will still have the title of strongest cavalry.

That's my opinion though. :2thumbsup:

[Di Asturien]

In my opinion, while being a very good idea, having different men@arms would go against the bretonnian nature.
Im not sure how people intend to have grail pilgrims scale up the walls though, are you thinking of excluding the grail reliquae?

Also, I believe I speak for all of us bretonnians when I say we would LOVE to have a foot knight unit :2thumbsup: even if it is seriously limited in unit size and/or number

[Underway]

Thats all fine and good but the whole point of the mod is to try and represent warhammer as closely as possible. This means lack of foot troops for the Bretts.

The only foot knight the bretts have is the "Commoners Vow" or something like that where a character fights on foot to bulk up the peseant units especially when doing a seige on either defence or attacking. They often lead the charge from the seigetowers or meet the charge on the top of the wall. But this is only one knight in the whole of the army list.

[Enthes]

if u had knights on foot i believe they should be very slow moving due to armour and weapons

[Jonlissla]

if u had knights on foot i believe they should be very slow moving due to armour and weapons

That... wouldn't really make any sense. What about Greatswords? They carry two-handed swords, and it's not like in the movies (when they swing around them like if they're were made of paper :laugh4: ), a sword is really heavy. And to be able to use them properly, you have to be in a fit shape. Knights don't do much else than training, so I don't think they should be slower. Otherwise it wouldn't really be realistic.

[alexader]

i think you made a mistake,it's a brettonian thread and not an Imperial thread.but from the other side it's not usefull to include units that we believe that they will stand well in the game,even if it's easy for them to exist.:egypt:

[Jonlissla]

i think you made a mistake,it's a brettonian thread and not an Imperial thread

But it wouldn't really make any sense. :beam:

Two guys are equally strong, yet the one that is carrying the lightest armour, are slower than the other guy that is carrying heavier armour.

Something is not right about that... :inquisitive:

[Goncalou]

Actually if i remember correctly, knights with the virtue of empathy can dismount their horses and fight on foot.

[Goncalou]

dont questing knights use greatswords though

[Jonlissla]

Yeah, they do. What about it?

[Severe]

Why not split the Men-at-Arms into different divisions based on their weaponry? There'd be the base Men-at-Arms unit, but researching and buildings could offer more specialized variations to fill out the roster:

Men-at-Arms
Typical Man-at-Arms unit, armed with simple spears and shields. Jack-of-all-trades but master of none.
Spearmen-at-Arms
Men-at-Arms trained in the use of defensive and anti-cavalry tactics, with good defense but little attack value except against cavalry. Armed with spears and shields.
Swordsmen-at-Arms
Men-at-Arms specializing with swords, trained in flanking and assaulting formations. Armed with swords and shields.
Heavy Men-at-Arms
Men-at-Arms that specialize against heavily armoured foes. Armed with axes, maces, flails, hammers and shields.
Halberdiers-at-Arms
Men-at-Arms equipped with halberds and the bonuses and versatility the weapon offers, but without shields.
Veteran Men-at-Arms
Those Men-at-Arms who survive assaults but don't receive the knighthoods they deserve, very strong assault infantry. Armed with two-handed weapons like greatswords, warhammers, mauls and the like, but without shields.

And there's an extra five units for Bretonnia without having to make up units, since they are all choices available for Men-at-Arms on the table top game. :2thumbsup:

This approach would seem the best choice to me as well. Maybe scratch a couple of the variant, like the Veterans or maybe the Heavies. The Spearmen and the basic Men-at-Arms could be merged, as the difference between the two seems miniscule and only there for sake of having more units.

[Jonlissla]

That would be an effective approach, yes. But we don't know if the Governor of Judea is going straight of the miniatures range, or if he's going to add some other units too. Otherwise, you'll end up with too few units. In MTW2 you had about 20+ units per faction, Bretonnia only has 9 units that can actually be made. That will make the game unbelievably boring after a while, since you're not rewarded with new units, and that's one of the reasons that you actually continue playing, because you want to have new, stronger, better soldiers to guard your kingdom.

[Silaris]

That was my line of thought actually as well. That we need more variations in units, bigger and stronger, or at least more varied, to keep us wishing to progress and conquer further. If we only have access to pure tabletop units, some races will run out of new units fast. Perhaps using the army lists for inspiration.. For example, from memory High Elven Archers started without armour, but armour can be given to them at extra cost. This in effect, gives you two units to create, Archers and Armoured Archers. Using TT additions to units is possibly the way to increase variation.

[Severe]

That would be an effective approach, yes. But we don't know if the Governor of Judea is going straight of the miniatures range, or if he's going to add some other units too. Otherwise, you'll end up with too few units. In MTW2 you had about 20+ units per faction, Bretonnia only has 9 units that can actually be made. That will make the game unbelievably boring after a while, since you're not rewarded with new units, and that's one of the reasons that you actually continue playing, because you want to have new, stronger, better soldiers to guard your kingdom.

Exactly. Of course, you could spice things up a bit with regional special troops as well, recruited in the merc-fashion. I am not too familiar with the Brets, but I could imagine some fo the duchies being known for special troop types.

[fluffydragon]

What about making more than one type of knightly unit-make a unit for each dutchy, or if that is impractical chose a select few. For example:

Knights of Bastonne-Virtue of Heroism- Extra damage against Large Stuff (giants, trolls etc.)

Knights of Carcassone-Virtue of Stoicism-Higher Morale

Knights of Mousillon-Virtue of the Ideal-Higher Attack and Defence Skill, but cause slight morale damage to nearby friendly units.


Im not sure if this is even possible, as my experience of modding total war is....limited. However it would expand the number of units- and as there would be no standard training for knights regional differences could be an interesting variation.

This idea could be applied to characters (generals units) as well as having effects in the campaign game i.e. as a Duke or Scion of one of the Duchys the character would have a positive effect in that region and a negative effect elsewhere when acting as govener. The Duke of Mousillon would have a large negative impact on the running of any province except mousillion, possibly an increased chance of going insane/ getting blood lust etc. but more chance of becoming a strong general (including traits like Brave).

[Silaris]

That may possibly give them too many knights, all of whom are not terribly different. Knight Errant, Knights of the Realm, Questing Knights, Grail Knights, Knights on Foot, then you have other mounted troops in the form of Mounted Squires.. might be better to have "Knight of Etc" being a trait for generals, same with virtues.

[Jonlissla]

I think it's also a good idea. But instead you could limit them as well, like they did in Kingdoms. A unique range of units, no?

[Marcus Agrippa]

Hi there,


New to the forums(first post), But long time Bret player and total war fan.
Started with Medieval total war 1.
I think the brets can be used in this mod and still be fun.
For instance:

Grail knights are elites
immune to psychology = top moral
living saints mean magic attacks = no armour save
Bret warhorses = fast cavalry so high movement or stamina (Empire ones are slow)

Spears in warhammer are not cavalry killers just plus strength in defence or charge reaction.

Bret armies always have two heroes (one free standard bearer). Could be two generals in game. They are much more tough than real life generals.
I think stats and ancillaries can give a good account of the brets.

They have a few different knights 5 heavy cavalry

Grail knights Elites = (Spartan hoplites on horses, they’ve never let me down)
Pegasus Knights = (KOTR on Pegasus, I know they might not be possible)
Questing knights = Knights with great swords won’t break if any other knights do
KOTR (Knights of the realm) in last version they were bit stronger than Knights Errant and they use their Helms
Knights errant = may charge without orders don’t always use helms

All knights won’t rout if infantry do. All faster than any other races knights.

Light cavalry Squires/Yeoman with bows shields and spears

Long bows (just same as English)
Men at Arms (Bill men with shields basically)
Grail pilgrims = (cross bearers on crusades)
Trebuchet (longest range of artillery in the game)

There are rules for dismounted knights in each version of the game but I don’t think you really need them.

Magic could be represented by special orders from Kingdoms
Missile weapons are less affective against brets when brets attack, every player will use lady prayer for protection.

[Solus]

I'm sorry, but I have to correct you here:


There are rules for dismounted knights in each version of the game but I don’t think you really need them.

Magic could be represented by special orders from Kingdoms
Missile weapons are less affective against brets when brets attack, every player will use lady prayer for protection.
You're a edition behind, Bretonnian knights cannot dismount anymore. The blessing of the lady now gives a 6+ ward save, which is a 5+ ward save if their enemy has strenght 5 or more. Mounted squires do not exist anymore, just the mounted yeomen.

[Caradrayan]

I think you have bretts covered. My only suggestion is that if you keep the castle/city distinction (and I suggest you do) then Bretts should have more castles than cities. This will easily distinguish them from Empire, who would have more cities than castles.

[Solus]

I think you have bretts covered. My only suggestion is that if you keep the castle/city distinction (and I suggest you do) then Bretts should have more castles than cities. This will easily distinguish them from Empire, who would have more cities than castles.That would be a good idea, according to their agressiveness. Maybe the bret forts should be more expensive, but stronger, simulating the massive amount of border castles they have (maybe permanent forts, thoug that might be hardcoded)

[Goncalou]

I'm sorry, but I have to correct you here:

You're a edition behind, Bretonnian knights cannot dismount anymore. The blessing of the lady now gives a 6+ ward save, which is a 5+ ward save if their enemy has strenght 5 or more. Mounted squires do not exist anymore, just the mounted yeomen.
Knights/Heroes something like that with the virtue of empathy may be fielded on foot, says so in warhammer armies brettonia.

[Jonlissla]

That would be a good idea, according to their agressiveness.

Brets aren't excactly aggressive. It says in the armybook that if they would actually start invade instead of thinking about their honour all the time (*cough* lazy bastards *cough*), they could easily conquer a large part of The Old World.

..... But you problably meant that they weren't aggressive at all, right? :sweatdrop:

[Caradrayan]

Can't trust the armybooks about the competence of a faction. The army books are cheerleaders for the faction.

[Jonlissla]

Can't trust the armybooks about the competence of a faction. The army books are cheerleaders for the faction.

No shit? In every damn book they write "OMG LOZL!!!1 Dis faction kan PWN any1 if only dey only *insert-random-reason-here*!!!!1" :laugh4:

It's kinda sad though. It would be better if they would treat everyone neautral instead, and at least write some downsides with the factions.

[Solus]

Knights/Heroes something like that with the virtue of empathy may be fielded on foot, says so in warhammer armies brettonia.
:study:*Breaks out his army book, checks the index for the “virtue” entry, flips to the “virtue” section, reads up on this particular virtue and its effects, and concocts a plan to outwit the Goncalou using his superior intellect.*
THAT only counts fot HEROES AND LORDs, which makes it impossible to implent in this mod
(In some way, you're right:inquisitive:I have to make sure I'm right this time:whip: )


It's kinda sad though. It would be better if they would treat everyone neautral instead, and at least write some downsides with the factions.
Brets have a downside, the poor peasants who have to work all day:whip:, while the nobles are playing with damsels and dragons:charge:

:drama3:

[Jonlissla]

Brets have a downside, the poor peasants who have to work all day:whip:, while the nobles are playing with damsels and dragons:charge:

Of course the peasants have to work all day! They're lowborn, and that's what they were born to do. To work for highborn (in other words; guys like me :beam:).

[uanime5]

Grail knights are elites
immune to psychology = top moral
living saints mean magic attacks = no armour save
Bret warhorses = fast cavalry so high movement or stamina (Empire ones are slow)

Missile weapons are less affective against brets when brets attack, every player will use lady prayer for protection.

Most of these things are possible since it's possible to lock_morale (unit will never rout), give them armour piercing attacks (reduced enemy's armour defence), and more hit points (the counter archer fire). Though I'm unsure it the speed of a mount can be increased.

[Alletun]

Though I'm unsure it the speed of a mount can be increased.
It can. You'd have to change the x-coordinate for the skeleton.

[Caradrayan]

Just so we are clear, there are essentially 3 speeds for cavalry in the TT. Since this comes out to slow, medium, and fast, I think it will be useful to list them.

fast: dire wolves, goblin wolf riders and wolf chariots, and elf light cavalry are fast, they have a 9" movement on the TT.

medium: all Brett cavalry, empire pistoliers, high elf heavy cavalry, dark elf and lizardmen cold ones, orc boar riders and chariots, marauder horsemen tilean light cavalry, tomb kings cavalry and chariots. These all have an 8" move on the TT.

slow: empire knights, chaos knights, black knights. These have a 7" movement due to barding penalties on the TT.

[fireblade]

Cold ones and boars have a 7" movement. So they should be slow

[Solus]

This article might be handy when making the bretonnian fleet:http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=405&Itemid=59

[Kage Minowara]

Where to begin?

First of all, Bretonnia does have dismounted knights, its just that most of them are found in the region of Montfort. For those of you not farmiliar with Bretonnian lore (shame on you ~:pissed: ) Montfort is a region of Bretonnia that borders the Empire and is mostly made up of mountains. Due to this the knights of Montfort rarely fight on horseback this even includes the Dukes of Montfort who will pursue raiding orcs and goblins up cliffs and into tunnels (places horses cannot go). Thus all the knights of Montfort are perfectly proficient in, and willing to, fight on foot.

Therefore if you wanted to put in units of dismounted knights, simply create a unit called Dismounted Knights of Montfort. They did a similar thing in Rome Total War where any city held by the Greek faction could recruit powerful Spartan Hoplites

Another idea I had was about Grail Knight. Of course if you are going to make a Bretonnian faction you must have Grail Knights. However instead of recruiting Grail Knights through regular army buildings like stables as you would do for Knights of the Realm or Knights Errant, one would recruit Grail Knights through religious buildings. According to the Warhammer Bretonnian book and other various peices of Bretonnian fluff when knight becomes a Grail Knight more often than not he becomes the guard of a grail chaple or holy site. Therefore in the game when one upgraded the religious building in a town or castle to a certain point, one would gain the ability to recruit Grail Knights who are drawn to such holy places.

Another point I wish to address is one made eariler on in the thread about Bretonnians not hiring mercenaries. While it is technically against Bretonnian policy and belief to hire mercenaries it still does happen. For example according to the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay book of Bretonnian (which was created by Games Workshop and considered canon) in the dukedom of Carcasson there is a tradition of hiring martially skilled peasants to guard flocks of sheep for fifty pennies a day. So when nobles in Carcasson want to hire foreign mercenaries they give the mercenaries a sheep to guard and before they leave they "accidentaly" drop a bag of gold near the mercenaries. The mercenaries either end up eating the sheep or interestingly turn it into a mascot. So there is one way of getting around the problem of Bretonnian hired mercenaries, just say they are not being hired as mercenaries but as "shepards".

Another idea I have is about Bretonnian Hippogryphs. If you wanted to include hippogryph mounted knights as unit just use elephant units from total war. Just take the elephant units, change the skins and a many a few of the attack action (I don't know if you can do that I'm not very familier with modding) and turn it into a unit of knights mounted on hippogryphs. They would not be able to fly but one could just say that they have have decided to charge the enemy on the ground or something. While it is true that in the table top game only lords can ride hippogryphs, in the Bretonnian fluff it says that any lord can ride a hippogryph so lond as he has the facilities to take care of it and the force of will to master it. Few do which is why they are so rare, but it would no go against canon to say that a group of nobles have banded together in one unit of hippogryph knights. I'm sure the only reason that they did not include them in the table top was because it would have been impractical, however including them in Warhammer total war would not be impractical so there is no reason not to.

[grailknight]

I agree with Kage Minowara. Also, in Lyonesse, the Lords do hire mercenaries to fight in their feuds. This is also found in the Roleplaying book on Bretonnia. These mercenaries include Dogs of War like Tileans.

[paddythemay]

Yeah guys, have any of u played lotr tw, in that they have fell riders which although aren't 100% right, can fly, basically they are ground units that hover in the air.
Is this possible?????

[Goncalou]

I seriously just don't know, but... thre is a video on you tube where drgons are just hovering in the air and killing tanks. So if you want to look it up you'll know for sure

[Goncalou]

All right it's done, i finally did it! After 53 long minutes it is done! What you may ask, well look at my post in the HE thread for your answer, and why has there only been like one Brettonian preview. Please start posting more stuff in the faction threads, they're so much less serious (and more fun) than the others. And person i was talking to last post you really should look up that video if you haven't yet, I remember there being a link somewhere on one of these threads, but which one.

[Spankfurt]

You're a monster, Goncalou.

>:^{D

[Goncalou]

What why am i a monster? WaaaaaH!!!!!!! :bigcry:

[Spankfurt]

Take a look at the last post of every topic in the Army's section.

wtfx

[britzrules]

just a quick correction,

ALL high elf cavalry moves at 9" in the TT game.