Lords of Midnight: Total War [Archive]

Horseman

01-13-2008, 17:21

Greetings to all and apologies, this has turned into a bit of an essay!

Lords of Midnight is a game released back in 1984 on the Spectrum and the Commodore 64 that was at the time of release touted as a mix between strategy and adventure written by a man called Mike Singleton.

For more information visit http://www.icemark.com/tower/

Quite recently I discovered an online multiplayer version of the game (Midnight MU) originally developed by Jean-Yves and have spent many happy hours playing and discussing the games in the forums and during one such discussion an idea was formed.......why not make a Total War Mod of Midnight, so that is how we got to this stage! We are currently using RTW 1.5 as a base, but after some advice this may change at a later date.

For more information on Midnight MU (and for those who can remember the good old days of beating up on Doomdarks hoards) you can visit

http://forum.midnightmu.com/index.php

Though you do need to register to see most of the forums.

Right back on topic here.
My own modding experience started by making all factions playable, then the odd tweak here and there to unit stats, buildings and ancillaries. Using the guides on these forums I then devised my own personal Mod for RTW making it as I felt it should be. ZoR, no more fantasy units, many units added to factions depending on regions (creten archers for all recruitable in Crete for example) So as you can imagine moving up a level to creating a whole new world/map with all new factions has proven quite daunting. Quite quickly I had 2 willing assistants in Mitch23 & Major Defect (known as Starshatter in MMU) and that comprises our Mod team. We are enthusiastic but not experienced!

We have a basic map that works ok, have begun renaming factions and characters and are almost done with changing unit names and stats. We will then be looking to tweak ancillaries and traits a little before making our 1st release as a beta to a small group of players to test for balance at that stage.

Most of the graphics will still be from RTW and this is where we hit our biggest brick wall, none of us have the programs or the skills to create models. Now as this is a labour of love rather than an attempt to create a perfect match we are not to fussed if things aren't quite right. After asking around we have found some models we can "steal" (this is of course with prior permission, and with credit once it is released) for quite a few things, and massive thanks goto Dul Gulder (Master of None on TWC) for helping point us in the right direction here and also for providing some very good models we can use. But if there are any Modders with the skills/programs to assist us and you would like to help please feel free to send me a message :help:

We still need to find a suitable "standing stone" to represent Lilths on the campaign map as well as replacing the characters that appear there. And of course the units themselves!

Thats it for now - I'll try and post some screen shots of the campaign map if I can work out how, just to prove we are making progress and I'm not making this up!!!!

thanks for reading

Mike

Horseman

01-13-2008, 17:37

Right if I have this right below you should see the plains of Blood in all its glory during winter! one thing to note is that the terain is very "square" whilst I have toyed with the idea of smoothing it all out a bit I quite like the look as its faithful to the original game (the map was broken into squares)

https://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc83/insane_mikey/Blood2.jpg

And hopefully below you have the lands of Corelay

https://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc83/insane_mikey/Corelay2.jpg

Hopefully Mitch23 and Major Defect will come in with some of thier screen shots as they have better ones to use than me at present (they've spent more time actually testing than me as of late!)

Aradan

01-13-2008, 17:49

That looks very interesting, though I admit that being much younger I haven't *yet* played the original game - will do soon enough. Best of luck!

Dol Guldur

01-14-2008, 00:58

Most on these boards - due to age or location (and probably the former!) - will not remember The Lords of Midnight. So let me (who am one who by both age and location was able to play this when it first came out) explain a little more...

Mike Singleton created some great games in his time and The Lords of Midnight, and others, were way ahead of their time. LoM had 32,000 panoramic screenviews, superior graphics for the time, and a landscaping feature. It was labelled the first "epic" computer game I believe. Now remember, this was all on a computer with 48K of RAM! It came with a novella (the first game ever to do so I believe) and a very useful keyboard overlay (no mouses back then!).

It was the RTW of it's time ;)

Singleton drew a lot of his imagination from Middle-earth. Some may even be interested in playing the PC conversion (interface not quite the same as the original, and yes you can use the mouse now!):

The Midnight Engine - Lords of Midnight Scenario v0016
http://www.icemark.com/downloads/index.html
warning: 2003 kb filesize :laugh4:

I wish the developers of this mod the best of luck - being, ehem, a little older than the average devs what they now lack in modding experience will be more than compensated for in staying power I am sure.

The only drawback to this mod is that I now feel very old... :yes:

Horseman

01-14-2008, 01:46

Thanks for the messages of luck and for all the help so far Dol Guldur, I would like to take this oppurtunity to say i'm only 29...surely thats not old? :no:

Dol Guldur

01-14-2008, 08:39

No problem. :laugh4:

No, not old - though probably in terms of relativity to other modders ;)

(and certainly not old compared to me!)

Major Defect

01-14-2008, 08:40

Well, according to some involved in this mod, I am clearly able to remember both the game and the original Roman occupation of these fair isles. Due to the terrible memories of that time, it is only right that the evil Foul be represented as the Roman factions in this mod.

Screenshot below shows Doomy on a tour of inspection to Vorgath to look at the defences of Doom Square. He has passed a village, doubtless having a bit of a rape and a pillage, and is contemplating whether to hire the mercenaries available (clearly expecting warmer climes...), or casually drop them down the closest fish mine. Muhahahahahahahaha.

Its just as well there are some more mature elements involved here to straighten ties, inspect shoelaces, make sure teeth are cleaned and check the spelling of these here whippersnappers..........

https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a247/MajorDefect/DoomedITellyou.jpg

mitch23

01-14-2008, 09:38

Hi all, I'm "the rest of the team" and certainly old enough to have played the original (40 next week - eek!)
in my opinion LoM was (and is - especially in the guise of M/MU) one of the best games ever, so i hope we can do it some justice - or at least make something that's fun to play.

We've been hard at work so far (well, on & off, but you know how it is), and when i get home this evening i'll post some more lovely screen shots to prove it :)

mitch23

01-14-2008, 19:30

Ok here are some screenies - click to view a larger image

http://aycu26.webshots.com/image/40985/2005873928933001744_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2005873928933001744)
apart from the spelling mistake {...now i know why he's called Major Defect ;) }
this shows the NW corner of the map, with snowhalls & what should be a row of liths (=standing stones), but which currently appear as barrow mounds (both models kindly loaned by the 4th Age crew)
I would really love to get hold of lith/standing stone/stone circle/stone henge etc. models if anyone knows of any??

http://aycu37.webshots.com/image/39316/2003365463116973051_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003365463116973051)
this one shows lots of villages in the mid-east of the map - currently i'm using the barbarian fishing village model, which is a bit bizarre, but i think it looks nicer than their normal village

in both these pics you can see some blue blobs which are meant to be lakes - but i also don't have a good model for lakes (currently another loan from 4th Age - meant to be a stone, but i repainted it blue)

http://aycu23.webshots.com/image/42102/2006047213909004730_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2006047213909004730)
and this one shows a Tower of the wise (on the right, near the diplomat), but once again i'd really like a better tower - prferably something based on this one:
http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/38146/2005328094629636490_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2005328094629636490)

so, any help or advice with these strat models greatly appreciated :)
cheers
-mitch

Dol Guldur

01-14-2008, 19:55

Is there any reason why you cannot have lakes on the map via sea tiles, as per normal, rather than using up a resource model slot?

Good to see it developing ;)

Horseman

01-15-2008, 00:39

Hmmmm thats worth considering Dol Guldur, something for me and the other two to discuss. The only downside to using them as sea tiles is that they would then be unaccessable which while not nessasrily a bad thing may not be a good thing.

Once more you raise an interesting point for the 3 of us to discuss!

Dol Guldur

01-15-2008, 01:16

No problem - but what point would their accessability afford as long as they do not block a pass? And, if you have no Sea on the map, the tag text could be reworded to "A Lake" (or whatever).

I would make full use of the geography before using models. And, btw, as you have no volcanoes in Midnight you could also use that model (as many times as you wanted) as an extra model slot for the strat map - it would be impassable too (like wonders), though resource models are passable and can be placed anywhere. This difference in nature should determine your needs.

I assume the map will be permanent snowcover as per the original game?

Horseman

01-15-2008, 01:33

And more good ideas form the man I am coming to know as "The Master of Modding" and damn helpful and friendly to boot!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I intend to make the land snowcovered all year round as per the original, i'm 99% sure I know how to do this, just haven't got round to it yet, hopefully even going as far to making the southern part less "snowy" if that makes sense?!

Major Defect

01-15-2008, 08:36

The sea tiles seem a top idea. Forgive my ignorance, would we need to tweak pirate spawning if we popped sea tiles inland?

The style of RTW means that the "squares" of the original become less strategically critical than in the original, no? We wouldn't be trying to find the "Waters of life" so we can recharge the old Doomy bashing batteries would we? We want them in to be graphically faithful to the original I think? Which makes the sea a mighty fine option!!!!

mitch23

01-15-2008, 09:37

seems like a good idea about the sea tiles (and/or use of volcano)
- we'll have to check the map to ensure they don't appear in "awkward" places, but i really would appreciate having a spare "resource" back in hand (either to differentiate Liths from Henges if i get suitable models, or maybe even to add Ruins or Caverns)

Horseman

01-15-2008, 13:07

I think that concludes that dicussion....I'll have a look at adding sea tiles in the place of lakes!!!!!

Making pirates never spawn is easy is no worries on that front either!

Major Defect

01-17-2008, 11:28

Note to self. When editing traits, please make sure you check the correct characters stats, before swearing like a trooper, throwing random cutlery implements at family members, and promising all at Creative Assembly a good radishing for making such a silly game. Ahem.

:oops:

satanea juda

01-20-2008, 23:24

Just reading though this, looks like an interesting idea, being a bit of a fantasist... umm no that sounds wrong, being a bit of a fantasy modder I'm happy to let you pillage the EOD II (or EOD) units or map features, if there's anything in there you might want, as long as you abide by the accreditation rules in the release notes, anything your not sure of just ask myself or Makanyane... (oh the music is free to use as well)

Link in my sig to the forum...

This is the unit roster (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115507), I just realised the Ghostmen and Souleaters are missing, ah well, you can probably find them in the screenshot thread.

Good luck with this.

Major Defect

01-21-2008, 10:27

Thanks!!! Its fantastic to receive so many offers to pillage models, especially as we are no graphics jockeys - although Horseman and Mitch are doing a superb job of changing that situation! I am the typist and can just about edit the text files!!!

Work is progressing steadily, thanks again for the offer!

mitch23

01-21-2008, 19:26

thank you kindly Satanea Juda

just looked at some of your screen shots and i think i spy a Henge in one of them - does that mean you have henges as items on the campaign map?
please say yes! ;)

satanea juda

01-21-2008, 21:13

The EOD II map has a number of features you won't see anywhere else, notably the four totems, the hanging tree, the cross, the burial ground, and the werewolf head (on a pointy stick), no henge's I'm afraid..I'll see if I can dig one up, or make one, there simple enough to do.

Any preference to the design?..

Horseman

01-21-2008, 22:41

Hello and thank you for your very kind offers.

1st off - Wow those units look fantastic excellant work!

As for the henges, well just stonecircles really (think stone henge) I'm sure Mitch will be along soon with a nice pictue :beam:

satanea juda

01-22-2008, 00:47

No worries, I'll knock something out sometime soon, oh apparently you were looking for a dragon, If you DL blue Lotus (in the hosted section) and drop Moros (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=10497) a Pm with a request he'll most likely say yes to using theirs..

((Mak they want a dragon, I hate dragons, it's all gone black, black I say,,, ...ARGGHHH...Dragons!!!))

mitch23

01-22-2008, 11:10

cheers Satanea, actually PM'd Moros the other day, he said we could borrow their Dragon for testing, and use it as a starting point for our own one
- ideally i think we'd like ours to look like a bit this one (it's an 8bit 2d image so you need to use your imagination)
http://aycu04.webshots.com/image/42083/2000689160930340770_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000689160930340770)
but actually never thought we'd be able to have any kind of Dragon so many thanks to Moros for his assistance with this.
And there's no need to fear him Satanea, Farflame is a very nice Dragon (well, relatively speaking, as dragons go, nice-ish...)

for reference Satanea I have some very basic 2d 8bit images of Henges and Liths (= standing stones) - and also some 3d version that were made for a 3d remake of Lords of Midnight called "War of the Solstice", by Wayne Britcliffe and Andrew Smart

Henges:
http://aycu22.webshots.com/image/42701/2002604482009348775_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002604482009348775)

http://aycu20.webshots.com/image/40899/2002621651505819140_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002621651505819140)

Liths/Stones
http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/40039/2002621140487318153_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002621140487318153)

http://aycu35.webshots.com/image/41114/2002605593568695584_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002605593568695584)

thanks again

Red Spot

01-22-2008, 16:44

so, any help or advice with these strat models greatly appreciated :)
cheers
-mitch

just my opinion ... but I found out that basic modelling is actually rather easy (except for a few "why wont it turn into a proper .cas" issues), just remember a single piece of advice (if you want ;)) scale your models up 4 or 5 times, than mod them, than scale them back ...

first of all its easy to pick the individual vertes once the model is big, next it gives a clearer look and it allows for better detail (imo), texturing is like a joke as you can almost see the individual pixel of the texture.

anyway I'm pretty new to modelling (the real moddeling that is, didnt know how to UV-map untill 3 days ago ...) but since I started scalling up last weekend I already made imo 2 great looking models and am actually in the process of stripping it a bit of excess vertexes as like in 1/2 an arc you basicly dont need (much) more than 5 to 7 vertexes, you dont see much more detail anyway (it than already looks as if its round .. enough ..)

Best of luck and imo you may be surprised about how well the AI may be able to deal with your map ... (I've made a few "levelling" tweaks to my map and ended up downtweaking the AI as they became too agressive, I can only imagine how they will behave on your map once properly set up ... :2thumbsup:)

edit;
seeing the genre games you like you may also like this "still alive" oldie, my personal all time fav.
Battlezone II; Combat Commander (http://www.planetbattlezone.com/)

G

mitch23

01-23-2008, 09:22

ah yes, loved battlezone - i remember playing the original arcade game

thanks for the advice Red Spot - and sound it is i'm sure, but i spent 20 minutes staring at the interface for Blender and then had to go and have a large whisky - so i guess it'll take some dedication on my part
plus there's the whole .cas issue :(

ah, sweet - just got a Happy Birthday email from The Guild - thanks guys :)

professorspatula

01-30-2008, 01:11

Finally a LoM TW mod. I remember a year or two ago making a 1:1 ratio map for all the cities and where mountains and forests should go compared to the original game (which took a fair bit of time) then started making the heights map. I didn't get much further though as I have virtually no modelling skills either, plus I realised it was quite a hefty project to undertake. (Here's the map (https://img181.imageshack.us/img181/1383/vvvvvrg7.png): left is 1:1 features to original game map, although I edited it a little since; and on the right is the unfinished heights. Pointless as you've got your own nice map but I thought I'd share it anyway.)

Really the crucial part of the mod is to use large amounts of scripting to make the world permanent winter and to have the effect of Doomdark's Ice Fear giving the Free lords penalties the larger Doomdark's armies get. I don't think you really need a great deal of units, probably less than 10 per army to keep it within the spirit of the original game. Most troops I'd imagine would be fodder, with the major cities producing elite units and so forth.

Good luck with the mod anyway.

Dol Guldur

01-30-2008, 01:29

I am not sure scripting is necessary. There are other methods - and I would not advise it at first anyway. But I agree that the units should be kept minimal so as to more closely follow the spirit of the original game.

Anyone who recognises LoM is surely an old modder ;)

Best of luck with the mod too! Keep it going! Small chunks, remember! You never know what time you will have.

professorspatula

01-30-2008, 02:01

Whilst scripting doesn't need to be necessary to make the mod, to differentiate it from the other 200 mods that are either in development, finished or abandoned, and to capture the real essence of the game-world, some scripting would be beneficial. Admittedly at first getting the models, units and maps complete is first priority.

My personal stance on the Lords of Midnight setting is it would be Dark-Ages, Viking-esque, so heavy armoured units and stone walls would be out, aside from the few major citadels. I also down-play the entire magic, fantasy side of things which is a little too Tolkien-esque if you're not careful. It should probably also be a war of attrition, whereby the Foul massively outnumbered the Free at all times like in the game.

By the way - you don't have to be that old to know the Lords of Midnight scenario! The cheek! Hehe.

Horseman

01-30-2008, 12:57

Hmmm interesting take, I put LOM more medieval than Dark Ages - more to do with the lord structure and the mention of squires.

I made the map as 1 to 2. As in every square in the original made 4 squares in the mod (I felt it would have been to small otherwise.

And no you dont need to be very old to remember the original.......but it helps!

Dol Guldur

01-30-2008, 14:29

I'd agree - stone keeps, stone citadels, shields, heraldry and wings on the helms and the general look and feel of the LoM is early medieval imho.

Gah, I'm probably older than you all :laugh4:

professorspatula

01-30-2008, 16:03

Well I understand what you're saying but I still wouldn't place it later than say Norman invasion of England times. It's a lot easier to represent castles, other lords etc on a Spectrum if you use stone keeps, shields with heraldry etc. I found the Windows version of LOM with it's highly characterised Norse-esque depictions of the lords etc seemed fitting too. If you go for some chivalric style time, I think the world loses much of it's character. I see it as a darker, less advanced place, with a kind of Norse mythological times feel to it. More Rohan than Gondor if you like. Minor lords would more likely have simple wooden forts with a stone keep than some stereo-typical fantasy world castle. Large strongholds would have impressive stone fortifications throughout though.

I also prefer to think of a more loose alliance between the various lords. I don't believe they're all pals and such. Aside from Luxor, Xajorith and a few close friends, I imagine they other lords are forced to take sides more out of fear or past alliances, than anything else. This is how it is in Doomdark's Revenge, and for me that setting with it's barbarians etc feels very much more late dark-ages/early medieval setting. There's a kind of dark feel to the game world if you look for it, and I think that could be incorporated into the mod. Otherwise you'll just end up with another Lord of the Rings style mod, seeing as LoM is more or less that anyway.

Horseman

01-30-2008, 18:07

And I find it amazing that when you think how little was really written about the world how we all have are conceptions on how it is!

Testimont to a great game :yes:

Dol Guldur

01-30-2008, 18:32

Too true.

And, yes, evyr good mod should strive to be different in some way - and sticking close to the spirit of LoM is a great way to do this otherwise it does become just another Mod with a fantasy theme. I could not agree more. The dev. team should - if they are not already - become familiar with what is already out there so they can avoid running too close to what already exists.

professorspatula

01-30-2008, 18:46

Indeed. Just a shame poor Mike tried to destroy the series with that travesty of a game 'Lords of Midnight: The Citadel'. If the bugs don't ruin the game, the worst combat method ever does, as does the fact that nothing actually really happens. Still with it's numerous factions and distinct cultures present, it would probably make for a better TW game than the original, although it would require miles more work.

One idea I was thinking of when I was considering starting a LoM mod, would be to incorporate a tiny part of Dark Sceptre into the game. Ie: special Reaper units that cause fear, Savages that expertly hide etc, and Thralls, simple spear units that make up the bulk of Doomdark's forces.

Anyway good luck with the mod. I might be interested in helping if you want. Can do the odd bit of graphical work, textures, unit cards etc. Sadly I've never figured out the 3D modelling part, which is one of the most important parts of any mod.

By the way, have you thought about using BI as a base? The units are a bit more LoM already, there is religion would could be changed into Free/Foul bias (eg villages succumb to the Ice Fear), and there are hordes which Utarg could use, or even Doomdark. Doomdark could start as a giant horde, which only disbands very slowly so it always has a big number of troops. This way it could easily support it's massive armies. A script could be used to spawn armies into it's starting settlements if need be.

Just possibilities.

Dol Guldur

01-30-2008, 19:21

Alexander would be much better for a number of reasons. I think even a day/night rather than summer/winter could be setup in a simulated form, and unique generals/portraits to represent Luxor etc.

Ah, I remember Dark Sceptre - always crashed on me though :( Now, Avalon was a good game - Marik the Sage was it? Something like that...

professorspatula

01-30-2008, 19:41

Thing is BI probably halves potential players, whereas Alexander halves it again. I don't have it and never will either. A large number of mods incorporate BI, whereas only a handful require Alexander.

I don't recall playing Avalon, although the name is familiar. Dark Sceptre was a bit like LOM3 : lots of potential, lots of commands, and yet the actual game boiled down to doing just a few basic things, namely making sure you have more Mystics and Thanes than the enemy.

\----> Not sure if you'd be interested, but about 5 years ago I extracted most of the portraits for the characters from LOM3 on the PC and made a few new variations of the existing one for another project I was working on. The portraits are a little cartoony, but are very easy to edit too, thanks to them being very small and using a limited palette. Here I've taken a random load of them (admittedly most are pointless), retouched the colours slightly and stuck them against a generic background so you can see what they might look like before more editing. Ideally you'd get to use the character images from The Midnight Engine instead though (as shown in the pic). The quality is reduced here because of the JPG compression.

https://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1252/screenshotsmapbackgrounxr2.th.jpg (https://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotsmapbackgrounxr2.jpg)

Although they aren't the greatest of images, it would be fairly easy to knock up a large number of them for family members, agents etc. That's providing they don't need to age, which would take a lot, lot longer. <---/

mitch23

01-31-2008, 09:38

LoM certainly was a great game - which is why we're trying to mod it :)

I tend to think of it as sort of dark ages myself, and it certainly has a rough edge to it. And I agree that magic in LoM is subtle - it's in effects like the Ice Fear.

Interesting idea about the Ice Fear there professorspatula - worth considering - does Alexander have any religion effect? (sorry i still haven't properly investigated what Alexander can do)

I'm guesing this project will take shape gradually, with it becoming more LoM like over time, so it may not look that much like it to start with, but eventually we'll get there - won't we Horseman ;)

I am desperately trying to familiarise myself with the other mods out there (especially the fantasy ones) - but i'm going to need a time machine to fit in all the research games, and the dev work, and the play-testing games, and ... what's it called again... oh, life, that's it ... knew there was something else ;)

Horseman

01-31-2008, 13:02

We will get there indeed :yes:

Jubal_Barca

02-11-2008, 17:40

Horseman, if there's anything I can do to help let me know, I'm not modding for RTW much atm as I have no working map, modeller or team of any sort, so I've got time to help if you need me.

Horseman

02-11-2008, 20:13

Thanks Jubal, its all on a go slow at the moment due to real world demands

But some of the things we need at the moment include new character portraits suitable for the setting. You up for trying to see what you can come up with? We need Free, Foul, Targ and Fey (none of us are artists!)

Oh and I'm still looking at your campaign map trying to get it to work when I have spare time, its one of those things that I'm sure is so simple that I'll go GAH when it twigs.

Aradan

02-11-2008, 21:21

Glad to hear that you're still going. :)

mitch23

02-12-2008, 13:07

yes still going :beam:
but... just... a... little... slowly

Horseman

03-01-2008, 17:03

Just a quick update -

We are almost at the stage where we're going to unleash the mod on a select band of alpha testers.

This 1st "release" is designed to test the unit models and unit balances (dont want anything silly like Free Militia beating up Fey Vets!) in custom battles.

Although the campaign is playable (theres a map and that) its not finishished and needs a alot of tweaking to get the atmosphere right.....

The models for the most part are "borrowed" from METW and so far the textures, but I have started flexing my skinning skills and practicing so hopefully soon they will look more in line with the setting and look less like middle earth guys.

Which leads me to another point, once released to the community as a whole I am very keen to ensure everysingle person who has contributed gets credit. As we're using METW models and textures (as well as animations/skeletons) I'd like to know who to credit, I'm happy to put "The METW team" but think it'd be nice/polite/correct to also mention them by name. Anyone know where I can get the list of names?

Also in regards to this is it usual to use their actual names or their formum names or both?

Mike

Roman_Man#3

03-01-2008, 17:07

Sound great.:beam:

Encaitur and Burns are the ones you want to credit for METW.

Horseman

03-01-2008, 17:55

Thanks, I'll make sure their names wil get a mention!

Dol Guldur

03-01-2008, 19:55

RM3 means Encaitar ;)

Burns is still around and will be the one who knows the details.

Best of luck with the alpha.

Roman_Man#3

03-01-2008, 20:06

RM3 means Encaitar ;)

It was a test to test the.....:idea2:Encaitar was what I meant.:beam:

Aradan

03-22-2008, 23:05

Any news here? How did the alpha go?

Horseman

03-23-2008, 01:22

Just a bit of news.

The 1st Alpha is currently being played by our Volunteer Alpha testers (all from the Midnight MU forums) and aside from a few problems where some of the guys were still using version 1.1 or 1.0 its all looking good.

We're now waiting for any definate balance issues to be raised and/or any definate out of place models to be reported.

I'm still practicing my skinning skills (im getting there!) and so far the unit cards are also all "borrowed" from METW (this mod has been a god send!) but hopefully by time we're ready to unleash the campaign properly for Alpha testing alot of the units will be slighty different looking.

One problem we have encountered is finding a good method to balance unit costs both for the campaign and for custom battles (though the former is more imporant to me)

Are there any good methods/programs that will help with this or is it really just a case of trial and error?

I aim for recruit costs to be high and upkeep to be low (relatively speaking when compared to vanilla RTW) as this (I hope) will help simulate the original Lords of Midnight game better. There will be no cheap way to replenish losses and this will alos serve to ensure that lower end units remain useful through to the end (Do you sink all your available money into recruiting 1 powerful unit that will take 3-5 turns to be ready or do you build a few lower units that'll be ready in 1-3 turns?)

Well if anyone can help with unit cost balance let me know!

Thanks
Mike

satanea juda

03-23-2008, 18:13

(Do you sink all your available money into recruiting 1 powerful unit that will take 3-5 turns to be ready or do you build a few lower units that'll be ready in 1-3 turns?)

I open the edu and change them..:laugh4:

People tend to get board if they can't recruit at least a couple or three good stacks to wage war with, never mind small stacks of auxiliaries to garrison captured settlements and keeping a decent garrison back for defensive purposes. I find the Ai tends to keep in line with what the player is doing, but you don't want to get caught out with weak armies. ''The Crusades had pretty long recruitment times, 8-10 for some units, which I think was to accommodate a 4tpy script, then there's Mak's method of removing lower end units from each stage of new barracks, you always have to fight strong opponents eventually, you could also change the attributes of the different levels, ie; pikemen (phalanx) for the first two levels and then sword ,axe,spear-men, for the elites.

Dol Guldur

03-23-2008, 18:19

then there's Mak's method of removing lower end units from each stage of new barracks, you always have to fight strong opponents eventually

Don't players complain about not being able to train the removed units in all regions? Or trying to work out which they can train in and which they can't?

When we tried the USV (unit-size variation) system this was a big bugbear and we abandoned it for this reason.

Makanyane

03-23-2008, 19:05

Don't players complain about not being able to train the removed units in all regions? Or trying to work out which they can train in and which they can't?

When we tried the USV (unit-size variation) system this was a big bugbear and we abandoned it for this reason.

Had some comments about it on EoD, less on version II, no full scale revolt - (though that doesn't mean people don't object / aren't quietly modding it back themselves....) It's not that disruptive when you get used to it - just take sensible approach and don't upgrade all barracks / stables etc in all cities, which also saves you money, then you should have somewhere nearby to send old units back to retrain. AI never seems to send depleted troops back so they aren't losing anything by it, and as they do keep upgrading to max it should mean they are sending more of higher class units.

Really a lot of this comes down to personal taste, a lot of mods go for strict AOR systems but as having to ferry decent units up to front line over 5 turns plus drives both me and SJ up the wall we never used that system, despite it being preference for some more realism based mods / players.

EDIT: was part of problem with the unit size variation that things still looked like same unit? one version I saw seemed to - we've had that when we had mercs and normal units sharing unit card - and it does become pain in the rear to work out which units you can merge with which when in the field.

Horseman

03-23-2008, 20:47

Interesting points, one of the things I am hoping to achieve is that there will be next to no settlement improvements (most settlements will start close to if not already maxed out)

Also I'm looking to limit recruitment, you'll start with a fair sized army. The trick will be to maintain enough of it to conquere the world with limited reinforcements.

We shall see how it plays....it might not work!

satanea juda

03-24-2008, 14:55

Don't players complain about not being able to train the removed units in all regions? Or trying to work out which they can train in and which they can't?

But it's all about what I want.. :inquisitive:

I look at it same way as Mak, some settlements become military centres constantly upgrading barracks, stables ect, the others become financial cities. It works for EODI as the map covers a lot of ground and for EODII which has lots of islands, it's easy to keep your starting regions fairly safe so you don't need to upgrade every settlement as you expand.

you could also change the attributes of the different levels, ie; pikemen (phalanx) for the first two levels and then sword ,axe,spear-men, for the elites.

That's not what I meant to say.. The system gives you the option of changing the fighting/tactical/formation style of a faction as it grows, in EOD this probably worked best with 'Albion' who start out with fairly strong Pikemen and then switch to sword men, axemen and knights, by the time your to recruit knights the pikemen probably won't stand up against the enemies upgraded units, forcing the player to rethink how they fight battles. (Sorry, ocd..couldn't let it go)

Also I'm looking to limit recruitment, you'll start with a fair sized army. The trick will be to maintain enough of it to conquer the world with limited reinforcements.

You might want to take a gander at 58bc Imperator (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=137606), I haven't played it myself but it sounds like a system that might interest you..

Numbered legions with their own unique skin bring beautiful visual effects to 58BC. The veteran legions of Gaius Iulius Caesar march once again through the mud and blood of Gaul and across the dusty battlefields of the Civil War. Each soldier is irreplaceable.

Retraining the numbered legions is not an option. Every man counts and tactical deccisions are the key for keeping your army alive.
The script provides for periodic suplementa to refill the ranks of the army. Not only will you have to defeat the enemy but you will also have to take care of your men. Tactical planning is more important than ever.

Horseman

03-24-2008, 15:19

Thanks Satanea I'll have a gander at that.

though at this point I do not plan on using any scripts for various reasons, it'll be interesting to see how some one else has managed to achieve something akin to what I was planning.

satanea juda

03-24-2008, 15:32

I think the scripting only supplements your forces as to go, I'm assuming you can recruit AOR auxiliaries just not named legions, so you start with a top quality firm but can't replenish them..The 77bc mod (by the same team) has a system where when you recruit a general he comes with a small legion (8 units I think) which costs you an arm and a leg (5000) .. The 'FRRE' come up with some pretty cool ideas.

cherryfunk

03-30-2008, 16:01

Nice work on the map for this, guys! I remember playing LoM back in the day -- kids today have no idea how spoiled they are when it comes to strategy gaming!

One thing you might consider, given the land-locked nature of the map, would be to add navigable rivers, so that ship travel could be included...

mitch23

03-31-2008, 10:43

Thanks for the compliment cherryfunk, and I agree that making an entirely landlocked campaign is going to make things very different from most TW games - but I suspect we will try to keep it without rivers so as to maintain the feel of the original game.
Good point though, and if nothing else the lack of ships means potential income is much more limited than in a more conventional game. We hope to compensate by the fact that most settlements will start with most buildings already built, along with most factions having large armies to start with (and with correspondingly lower upkeep costs for them).

Horseman

03-31-2008, 10:59

Nothing much to add from Mitch's comments.

We definately wont be adding any sea/river travel on th LOM scenario due to wanting to keep to the original however one of the MMU scenarios does include rivers so who knows what'll happen in the future!

And thanks from me as well for your kind comments Cherryfunk, I was very pleased with how the map turned out, especially as it was my 1st ever attempt!

cherryfunk

03-31-2008, 16:34

Horseman, that was your first map? Impressive work indeed!

Can I ask as to how you got it up and running? I need to create a map for the Conan mod and all my map experience so far has been modifying existing maps -- I'm not sure how to create one from scratch, especially one that bears no resemblence to any released map... any suggestions as to how to get started?

Horseman

03-31-2008, 18:37

Indeed my 1st (and only!)

Big credit needs to go to the guide writers in the Sciptorium and that would be my 1st suggestion for creating your own map.

When I did the loM map i followed the tutorial for creating a provincal campaign to start with and this might be a good idea for you as it will bring most of the files you need to edit to one place. And it will also leave you with a map you know works (the main imperial campaign!)

Whn creating a brand new map from scratch I'd advise starting with only 2 giant provences. When I created the LoM map for example I just had the north and south, you can then allocate land mass to new provences once th emap is working. So create the map as you want it but when you make the regions file just make the size correct and make half 1 colour and the other half a diffent colour....dont forget the black dots for city location....I wouldn't bother with ports at this stage!

Keep the initial ground types as simple as possible. I only used light woods, hills, mountains and fertile plains. You can mix it up later once th emap is working.

Similar job with map heights. I started with only 3 levels, 1 for plains 1 for hills and 1 for mountains.

descr_mercs can be all but wiped out. I left only mercs in latium (reasons why latium in a bit!) You might be ok with no mers at all, I'm not sure.

You will also need to rememmber to go into descr_regions and take out all but the 2 you start with, obviously adding more in as you go!

If you're going to use vanilla RTW for your mod you have to leave Rome and Latium as a settlement and provence together. You can use the files in the text folder to have them called something else in the campaign

Also if you plan on having the Scipii, Brutii and Julii factions with the senate as a super faction (so you still get missions) you also need to keep the 1st regions they're are told to take by the senate (Segesta, Syracuse and Appollina from memory) but same as rome you can use files in the text folder to rename them on the map.

Well hope that all makes sense, I'm sure some more experienced guys will come along soon and give better and simpler advice! Feel free to ask if you get stuck either here or via PM

Mike

Roman_Man#3

03-31-2008, 20:58

Horseman covered everything. Though be careful if you map is large scale, two regions may cause it to crash. I had a 1021x600 map before, crashed over a certain region because too few provinces.

cherryfunk

03-31-2008, 21:43

Thanks Horseman, that's very useful advice. Do you think the same basic plan will work for making a M2TW map?

Roman, maybe I'll start with 4 regions -- we're going for the maximum map size (because bigger = more epic!)

Roman_Man#3

03-31-2008, 21:47

Cherry, I would say 4 regions isn't enough. Maybe go for 12, I had, IIRC, 5-7.

M2TW mapping is very very similiar to RTW mapping, so the plan should work. Only thing you have to remember is to make map_fog.tga(or something like that) all white. the fog.tga is the map that hides the new world on the M2 map.

Horseman

03-31-2008, 23:30

I'll just add that I have never moded M2TW, not even a little bit.

But it is the same engine so the basics should probably apply

mitch23

04-21-2008, 12:44

just to say that work continues, although we've all been a bit slow recently (having been variously interrupted by real life - grrr!)

we've had some feedback from our small band of alpha-testers, although it seems that our primary aim of balancing the units has been largely overlooked by an uncontrollable urge to play the (very unfinished) campaign game
and i for one can't blame them since i'm suffering the same temptations myself

oh well, i guess we'll get it all balanced eventually - and we've been given a good start in this regard, initially by a collection of my random guesses and then very much bolstered by the carefully studied and calculated data collected by the FATW crew (thanks guys)

Starshatter has made some nice changes to the splash screen, menu screen, and the quotes on the loading screens - and personally i think this improves the whole atmosphere of the mod, makes it feel like a "proper mod"

We're currently looking (looking being easier than doing) at creative use of the Traits & Ancilliaries, and at editing a lot of the 2D graphics - banners, logo's, unit colours, unit cards, and all that kind of stuff

plus i think it's about time i looked into mod foldering - JSGME has worked well for us, but frankly it looks like the way forward is to employ that pesky -mod: switch
i keep putting this off though, as soon as i read about re-directing file links i get a headache (so any advice on this will be very welcome - other than "take aspirin" that is)

-mitch

Horseman

04-21-2008, 13:25

how about take ibobufen....much better than asprin for haedaches :dizzy2:

mitch23

04-21-2008, 14:28

hmm - yes, well , thanks for your help there Mr Horsey :surrender2:

Makanyane

04-22-2008, 05:22

mitch23

04-22-2008, 12:04

thanks Makanyane, i'll have to carefully prepare my addled brain and then i'll have a go

Drunk-Monk

05-31-2008, 17:55

I have never played the original (too young) but it sounds quite interesting, and a great idea for a mod. Btw have you made any more progress on this project?

Ramashan

05-31-2008, 20:00

plus i think it's about time i looked into mod foldering - JSGME has worked well for us, but frankly it looks like the way forward is to employ that pesky -mod: switch
i keep putting this off though, as soon as i read about re-directing file links i get a headache (so any advice on this will be very welcome - other than "take aspirin" that is)

-mitch

The sooner you go the mod folder route the better as far as re-pathing things go. Took me an entire weekend to re-path all the files I had edited after I finally learned about mod folders.

One suggestion that seems to work well for me is to work with two copies of the vanilla data folder. I just duplicated the Rome Total War folder and named it after the mod I was working on and then create new short cuts for this one on my desktop.

I recommend this because you can work out of one and create your mod folder and toy around with all the files and edit the geography.db and all that stuff without worrying about breaking the game. And if you have any problems all the vanilla files are easily available in the untouched data folder.

Then you just copy and paste your mod folder into the untouched data folder and this will tell you if you did your work right and that others can easy use your mod folder without errors.

It might seem a bit tedious to constantly be moving the mod folder over, but I've found that it has helped me track down problems and errors before I send it out to my team mates and then have to hear them complain about all the errors.

Just a suggestion, take it or leave it.