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econ21
01-16-2008, 14:42
This thread is for all out of character discussion of the King of the Romans PBM - a HRE M2TW game. Please post in this thread if you have any queries or are unsure where to post.

The list of players and description of their avatars is maintained in the first post of the Chancellor and Governors thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383081&postcount=1



*************KOTR FAQ (UPDATED)**********************

The following paragraphs are designed to provide a simple understanding of the KOTR game and how it works. If anything in these paragraphs conflicts with one of the Game Rules, the Rule takes precedent.

Introduction

The general idea of the King of the Romans (KOTR) game is to allow a large group of players to determine the fate and development of the Holy Roman Empire in M2TW.

All players are “Electors” and will belong to one of the four Ducal Houses, Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). Eventually all players will be represented by an in-game character known as an “avatar.” This will typically be a general, but agents such as spies, priests or diplomats can be used as well upon request. It is not advisable to use an assassin as an avatar, as they have short life expectancies. If a player’s avatar gets into a battle, the player is expected to download the savegame and fight the battle.

Collectively, the Electors form the Imperial Diet. This has two functions - to elect a Chancellor and to create Edicts. The Chancellor will be the “reigning player” and control the game during his term in office. He will move all the generals, authorize any buildings from the build queues and train any units/agents. “Edicts” are laws that require the Chancellor to take specific actions. These can be very wide ranging in scope, but typically include such things as declaring war against another nation, seeking an alliance with a neutral country, or making peace with an enemy nation.

How to Join the Game

In order to join the game and get started, all you need to do is post in the current OOC thread that you would like to join and select one of the four Ducal Houses. You can then start participating in as much or as little detail as you wish. You will always be able to find the location of the relevant game threads in the second post of the Imperial Library (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383644&postcount=2).

The Ranks

KOTR attempts to mimic the feudal political system of medieval Europe. There are several ranks which each player can obtain, all of which come with their own benefit and responsibilities. If you wish to be highly involved, you can take on roles that require more work and responsibility. If you wish to simply observe and cast votes during election times, you will have to do very little. The extent of your involvement is entirely up to you.

Electors

All players, except the Emperor, are Electors, even if they hold another rank. It is the lowest rank in the game and all new players begin at this level. As an Elector, you may speak in the Imperial Diet, propose one Edict per session, vote on Edicts, and vote for Chancellor. All Electors belong to one of the Ducal Houses. You are not required to follow the orders or suggestions of your Duke, but he has the ability to bestow and remove ranks and privileges. If you have ambitions to rise to a higher rank, carefully consider whether your Duke will approve of your actions or not.

It is important to remember that you can only freely propose one personal Edict per Diet session. Choose an issue that is important to you and think very carefully about how you word it. A poorly worded or unimportant Edict can easily be ignored and forgotten. The only way you can propose more than one Edict per Diet session is through the approval of your Duke.

Electors will be provided with avatars on the basis of seniority; first come, first served. Generals are the most popular avatars and there may be a waiting period to obtain one. Agent avatars can usually be obtained quickly, but are not as complex and are not really suited for players who wish to rise to a higher rank. If you take a general as an avatar, you will be expected to fight any battles the avatar gets into, assuming he commands the army. You will have 48 hours in which to fight the battle after you are notified about it. When that time expires, the battle will be autoresolved, which could result in the death of your avatar. If you do not want to fight battles and there is a shortage of generals for avatars, please do not accept one. If you want an avatar but do not wish to fight, please consider using an agent.

Counts

Counts are prominent nobles within their Houses. The title of Count can be bestowed upon an Elector by his Duke. The role of Count is identical to that of an Elector with a general avatar, with a few exceptions.

A Count rules over one of the settlements (city or castle) in his Ducal House. The Count may, at his discretion, determine the order in which buildings are created in that settlement (build queue). The Chancellor is not required to build anything in the settlement, but if something is built, it must be in the order determined by the Count. The Count can also set the tax rate in his settlement, if it is a city. Counts gain a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. Counts can name an heir to take over their lands when they die. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar who is not already a Count.

There are two kinds of Counts: Freehold Counts and Bonded Counts. The difference is simple. Freehold Counts are the natural born sons of a Duke. They cannot be removed from control of their settlement, though the Duke can still name another as his heir if a Freehold Count displeases him. Bonded Counts are non-blood sons of a Duke, such as adoptees, sons-in-law, or anyone else who is not a natural born son. Bonded Counts can be stripped of their titles and lands at any time and for any reason by the Duke.

Dukes

Dukes are the heads of the Houses. They are figures of authority and they wield a great deal of power. There is only one Duke per House and a player can only become Duke by being the Duke’s heir at the time of his death. The role of Duke has many more powers than that of Count and Dukes gain a significant influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

The Duke rules over the capital of his House and all provinces which do not have a Count. Just like with a Count, the Duke can determine the build queue and tax rate for these settlements, but he can give orders for as many of them as he wishes. Dukes are also responsible for promoting and demoting Bonded Counts. A Duke may give any Elector with a general avatar the rank of Count, making them a Bonded Count. He may take away their lands at any time or switch their lands as he sees fit. The Duke can name an heir to take over as head of his House when he dies. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar, and it is recommended (though not necessary) that the person already be a Count.

The Duke is responsible for managing the affairs of his House and will often be dealing directly with the Chancellor and the Kaiser in high-level political discussions. Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. These can be the Duke’s own Edicts, but it is recommended that the Duke pick at least some of them from amongst the ‘extras’ his Electors want to put forward. It would be entirely appropriate for the Duke to use incentives and threats to ensure that the policies he wants get put forward. However, remember that even these extra Edict proposals must come pre-seconded by two members of his House. Don’t anger too many of your Electors or they could prevent you from using your extra Edict proposals!

Finally, the Duke controls the Household Army. The Household Army is the House’s personal military force and it is largely independent of outside control. The Duke is responsible for determining where it is garrisoned, who commands it, and what orders it is given. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Stewards

Stewards are Electors who are temporarily acting as Dukes. KOTR originally started with two Stewards, but for the most part, the title of Steward is a temporary one bestowed on a House Elector for a short time when a Duke is unavailable to fulfill his duties. In reality, this happens when a player who is a Duke is going on vacation or is otherwise going to be out-of-touch with the game for a short period of time.

Stewards have all of the powers of Dukes for the duration of their term, except that they cannot name an heir.

Emperor (Kaiser)

The Holy Roman Emperor is the supreme head of the Empire. It is a hereditary position. (Note: This is not historical, but there’s no way to change this in-game.) While the Emperor is theoretically the most powerful man in the entire Empire, in the KOTR game he plays a more subtle role. The Emperor gains an influence bonus equal to his authority during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

First, the Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet. It is his job to maintain order in the Diet and ensure that it runs smoothly. If there is a dispute about the Game Rules, the Emperor will make the final decision about the proper manner to follow the Rules.

Second, the Emperor does not belong to any of the Ducal Houses. Upon inheriting the throne, they leave their old House for good and lose any other titles (Elector, Count, Duke) that they might have. The Emperor is expected to act for the good of the Empire, rather than an individual House. While Emperors are expected to be impartial, they will certainly have strong opinions about what is best for the Empire. This may in turn result in them siding with Houses that support their decisions and working against Houses that they believe are hurting the Empire.

Third, Emperors allocate newly captured provinces to the Ducal Houses. When a province is captured, it comes under the direct control of the Emperor, who can control them in the same manner that the Dukes and the Counts can control their own lands. The Emperor may allocate any of his lands to any of the Ducal Houses. Once allocated, they cannot ever be returned to the Emperor. House provinces where are re-taken after being occupied by an enemy do not count as being “captured.”

Fourth, Emperors decide which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.

Finally, Emperors can automatically assume the position of Chancellor for the first term after they are crowned. This power is not subject to Diet vote and no one can run against them. However, the Emperor still has the limitations of Chancellor while in office, which means he can be impeached by the Diet in exceptional circumstances. Any further attempts by the Emperor to be Chancellor must go through the normal election process.

Prince (Prinz)

The Prince is a largely unimportant role, significant mainly because he is the heir to the throne and will become the next Emperor. Unlike the title of Emperor, the title of Prince is added in addition to any other titles the player holds. This gives the player a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. The Prince’s only duty is to preside over the Diet when the Emperor is absent.

There is no control over who becomes the new Prince once the current one assumes the throne. Like with the Emperor, this is a limitation imposed on us by the game itself. With luck, the role will only fall on players who seek to be active in the game. (*cross your fingers!*)

In practical terms, players must always remember that the Prince will inherit the throne, thus gaining power over the Houses through his ability to allocate newly conquered provinces. If you make an enemy of the Prince, your House might find itself smaller than the others when he becomes Emperor.

Chancellor

The position of Chancellor is without a doubt the most important and powerful one in KOTR. In game terms, the Chancellor is the person who actually plays the M2TW game. Unlike the other positions, you shouldn’t think of the Chancellor in the sense of what he can do, but rather what he cannot do. He is essentially playing the single player M2TW campaign with the following restrictions:

The Chancellor must obey the Game Rules and Edicts that have been passed by the Diet. Failure to do so can lead to impeachment by the Diet.

The Chancellor decides whether buildings are to be constructed in all settlements. If a settlement has a build queue from a Count, Duke, or Emperor, then he must build the items on that list in the order listed. However, he does not have to build anything at all if he does not want to, he only has to follow the build queue if he does decide to build something. If a settlement has no build queue for whatever reason, the Chancellor can build whatever he likes.

The Chancellor moves the armies and hands out saved games to be played by the appropriate generals. He can fight battles that his avatar is commanding whenever he wants without pause, but must give other players 48 hours to fight their battles. If a player exceeds the time limit or if the battle is lead by a Captain or a general that is not represented by a player, the battle must be autoresolved. The only exception to the Chancellor’s control over the armies are the Household Armies. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Essentially everything else is free game. If there isn’t a Rule or Edict about it, the Chancellor can do whatever he wants. The Chancellor’s term last for 10 game turns (20 game years), but he can run for re-election if he wishes. In recognition for his contributions, the Chancellor gets a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor, even after he leaves office.


***************KOTR GAME RULES**************

Game settings

*MT2TW with the 1.3 patch
Kingdoms installs 1.3. If you do not have 1.3, there is a free patch you can download and install:
http://download.sega.com/u/med2/patch/1.3_retail/Medieval%20II_Update3_Compatibility_Patch_EFIGS.rar
You need to install this on top of 1.2.
*Hard campaigns, very hard battles.
*Large unit size.
*Battle timer on. Show CPU Moves, Manage all Settlements
Standard victory conditions (45 provinces, including Rome).

Charter Amendment 6.2: Medifix will no longer be used and in its stead, FactionHeir's trait and ancillary fixes will be implemented. He will also take full responsibility of any issues regarding these files, however unlikely these may be after extensive testing.

The only mod we will use is the trait and ancillary files created by factionheir, available to download at:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix129.zip

Charter Amendment CAE1.1: econ21 will be authorised to give AI factions extra florins; for example, by gifting them a lump sum every 10 turns or so.

To increase the difficulty, the AI will periodically be given money via the consol.

The console command to give 10000 florins to Hungary is:

add_money hungary, 10000

The list of major factions is:

england
france
spain
venice
sicily
milan
scotland
byzantium
russia
moors
turks
egypt
denmark
papal_states
portugal
poland
hungary

The Mongols, Timurids and Aztecs may be included at a later stage.

Probably the best practice is to top up factions with less than 50k, at a rate of perhaps 10k per turn.


OOC CA 14.1: econ21 is authorised to use the console to periodically strengthen AI armies.

Hard restrictions on play: * only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.

OOC CA14.4: No AI buildings may be destroyed.


How to play - detailed rules


1. The role of players.

1.1 Each player will roleplay an “elector” of the HRE. They must choose one of four noble houses to belong to. Players are born into a noble House. It is in their blood and cannot be changed. It is determined by which of the four lines on the family tree their avatar falls under (except for the three starter Generals, for whom it is determined by their initial geography). [Note - if avatars spawn disproportionately in certain Houses, Electors of one House may be offered an avatar of another, but then they effectively role-play a new character.]

Charter Amendment 9.2: Add to article 1.1:
In view of exceptional circumstances, the von Mahren family is allowed to join the House of Austria.

1.2 Over time, all players will be assigned an avatar (typically a general) by econ21 to represent them. They should roleplay their traits.

1.3 Players whose avatars lead in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved.

OOC Charter Amendment:
(a) Where there are multiple player controlled generals in a stack, then the player who plays out the battle is determined by who the computer designates is in command.
(b) An exception is that Household Armies (and the Army of Outremer) are always commanded by the designated Commander of said army.
(c) The commanding general may allow another player to fight a battle by mutual consent for OOC reasons.

1.4 Players whose avatars are Counts are entitled to set the taxes and build queue of that settlement. If anything is built in the settlement, it must be the first item on the build queue.
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 1: Amend 1.4 by adding: If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Chancellor can build what he likes. The Chancellor may upgrade a settlement at any time (ie upgrade the walls regardless of a build queue), unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the governor.

1.5 Each elector will periodically vote to elect a Chancellor (reigning player) of the HRE and on edicts to direct him.

1.6 Players are encouraged to stand for the post of Chancellor.

1.7 Players are encouraged to write in-character stories in the stories thread; to discuss matters of state in the Imperial Diet deliberations thread; to write-up battle reports; to PM each other in character for role-playing etc. [Note: when posting screenshots, we could keep them full size but put them under spoiler tags.]

OOC CA14.3: Players may “rebel” against Imperial authority and fight PvP battles. econ21 and TinCow will umpire what forces and resources rebels can command, and the process for resolving any PvP battles.


2. The role of the Chancellor.

2.1 The Chancellor is much like the player of a solo M2TW campaign - he moves all the units and agents on the map; he decides all the buildings and which units/agents to be trained.

2.2 However, he delegates battles to the player whose general leads the HRE force. And he follows the build queues and tax policies of players with governors.

2.3 He also must obey Imperial edicts and the constitution (these rules) or face political consequences.

2.4 The Chancellor is elected every 10 turns. Incumbent Chancellors can run for re-election if they wish.

2.5 The Chancellor must appoint army commanders. He must maintain a list of who has what post and notify players if they are appointed or dismissed from a role.

2.6 Battles are only fought manually when commanded by a player controlled general who is an army commander. They are autoresolved in all other cases (e.g. captain-led armies).

Charter Amendment E2.1:
(a) If an Edict to impeach the Chancellor is passed with a 2/3 majority, he is removed from office immediately.
(b) After impeachment, a fresh election is held to elect a new Chancellor, although a Kaiser may also exercise his perogative to be Chancellor at that point.
(c) The Chancellor replacing an impeached Chancellor serves out the remainder of the impeached Chancellor's term.
(d) All edicts passed in the Diet that elected the impeached Chancellor remain valid, unless overturned by new Edicts at the Emergency Session that impeached him.
(e) An impeached chancellor is not granted the additional bonus to influence that an ex-chancellor would normally be given.

Charter Amendment 11.5: All cities must have their maximum amount of free upkeep militia within their walls all times, except when the militia is used to fight armies observed to be within the boundaries of their province.

OOC CA 14.2: At the start of each turn, the Chancellor will post an annual report on the last turn, including a save game. The report will list battles that could be fought this turn. Players will have 24 hours to fight these battles or suggest moves for their characters. This system will be trialled for 5 turns and then either abandoned or continued based on majority opinion.

OOC CA 14.8: Chancellors should aim to post annual reports and savegames within 48 hours of the deadline for fighting all battles (offensive or defensive). Chancellors who fail to do this three times may be subject to an OOC impeachment vote.


3. The role of the Imperial Diet

3.1. The Imperial Diet will meet in session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each session lasts 3 days of real time.

3.2. At each session, nobles can propose edicts. These require two seconders to be put to the vote. Edicts are laws that direct what the Chancellor should do.

Charter Ammendment 5.2: Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. In the case where there are only 1 or 2 electors in total in a Duke's House, a House edict may still be put forward to the diet requiring only the number of possible seconding electors in the House as seconders.

3.3. Any declaration of war must be authorised by an Imperial edict. The Chancellor or any Duke is empowered to declare war on a non-allied army entering its lands.

Charter Amendment 10.2:
(a) No settlement will be captured without an Edict authorising its acquisition in advance.
(b) Captured settlements will be abandoned or given away unless, at the next Diet session, a Charter Amendment incorporates them formally as part of the Reich.
(c) The 33 existing provinces of the Reich are exempt from (a) and (b).
(d) This amendment overrides the constitutional right of Household Armies to conquer one neighbouring province.

Provinces subsequently incorporated into the Reich:


Charter Amendment 12.1: The province of Bran is to be incorporated formally into the Holy Roman Empire.

Charter Amendment 12.8: Ajaccio and Cagliari are to be incorporated into the Reich. The Chancellor is directed to trade Cagliari to any foe if it can bring about a peace between our nations.

Charter Amendment 14.1: Antwerp is formally incorporated into the Reich.


*3.4. The rules of the game can be changed by a Noble Charter Amendments (2/3 majority required) except those marked with a *.

3.5. Tied edicts fail. If contradictory edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority.

3.6. Edicts can only last for 10 turns.

3.7. Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

*3.8. The Chancellor can be impeached and removed from office by a 2/3 majority of the Imperial Diet.

3.9. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final. The Prince can preside in the absence of the Emperor. The Emperor can call an emergency session of the Imperial Diet - freeze the game - at will.
Charter Amendment 8.2: In addition to the Kaiser, an Emergency Session of the Diet may be called by the Prinz, or if three of the four House leaders (Dukes or Stewards) agree to do so.

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +6 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 4 points):
Duke: +3
King: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.

Charter Amendment 6.7: Any decision that would lead to the excommunication of the Reich has to be authorized by a Diet vote, requiring a 2/3 majority. In the event of a conflict, this Amendment supercedes Rule 3.3 and Charter Amendment 5.1.


4. The role of the four houses - Dukes and Counts

4.1 There will be four houses representing the four main branches of the family tree: Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). At the start of the game, Prince Henry is Duke of Swabia and Leopold is Duke of Austria. The Dukes of Franconia and Bavaria have not yet been spawned (they will be the two males who take positions under the Emperor in the family tree).

4.2 Bavaria and Franconia have no Duke yet, so there are Stewards to act in their place until them. Until there is a Duke, they receive the +2 influence of a Duke.

Charter Amendment 3.1: Stewards may bestow the rank of Count on nobles of their House. This Amendment does not give Stewards any other Ducal power, it does not give Stewards additional Influence, nor does it allow Stewards to be Counts themselves.

The Stewards themselves are not Counts. Like Otto in Innsbruck, they are just soldiers, self-made men of lesser station [think Denethor in Lord of the Rings]. They could be rewarded by being made a Count by their Duke when he spawns, though. And they could marry into the Royal line, potentially becoming the Duke themselves.

4.3 The Emperor controls the initial allocation of settlements (e.g. upon conquest). At the start of the game, we have:

Frankfurt - capital of Franconia, home of the Duke (TBC)
Stafen - capital of Swabia, home of the Duke (Prince Henry)
Nuremburg - capital of Bavaria, home of the Duke (TBC)
Innsbruck - second city of Bavaria
Vienna - capital of Austria, home of the Duke (Leopold)
Bologna - is not assigned to any house

4.4 Dukes can then grant a settlement to a player, making him Count of that settlement. The settlements remain nominally within the relevant Duchy. There are no Counts at the start of the game. Capitals of a House need no Counts and cannot be given to them - they belong to the Duke (or his Steward). The Emperor could allocate Bologna to a House at any time, but after that, it will permanently belong to that House. There is an expectation that Franconia will extend north, Swabia west, Bavaria south and Austria east but this should not be followed too rigidly - e.g. the Emperor does not have to give Bologna to Bavaria.

[Note: It is expected that settlements will not be gifted lightly by the Emperor and by Dukes/Stewards - they should be regarded as precious rewards. There is no particular value to settlements in themselves, however. Avatars will be assigned according to the family tree, so more settlements does not mean more family members in a House - nor does it raise influence (beyond the one-off +1 for being a Count). A player cannot be the Count of more than one settlement. Dukes can have more than one settlement not dispersed to counts (and given the ratio of settlements to generals in a game, this is inevitable), but this provides no particular benefits.]

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

4.6 Counts who are not the natural sons of a Duke (e.g. adoptees and sons in law) may be lose their titles at the whim of the Duke. They are referred to as bonded Counts and are expected to act according to the wishes of their Duke. Natural sons of a Duke may not lose their settlements - they are referred to as freehold Counts.

4.7 Dukes and Counts should name a successor, who will take over their titles and settlements when they die. If no successor is named, the oldest natural son inherits, (if none, oldest adopted son; if none again, then the oldest son-in-law).
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 2: Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.

4.8 Dukes are expected to guide their families for the good for their Duchies. Members of a house do not have to follow their Dukes in terms of politics. However, the Duke can make players a Count by giving them a settlement (granting them +1 influence). Only the Duke of your House (not another Duke) can make you a Count. Houses will not be the only division in the Diet - chivalry, piety, strategy and other factors may also divide players.

Charter Amendment 6.3: Dukes may bestow the title of Count on Electors without avatars.

OOC CA14.6: The lord of a settlement (Count, Duke, King or Kaiser) can veto any units in their settlement being trained for a particular Elector or purpose. They must inform the Chancellor of this veto in advance.


OOC CA14.7: Each Count or higher will have a feudal levy. These will be allocated by econ21 at each Diet and will consist of four or more units commensurate with the status and service of the player’s avatar. (Typically, a Count would have 1 mounted sergeant, 1 peasant archer or peasant crossbow, 1 sergeant spearmen and EITHER one DFK OR one feudal knight.)

Some illustrative notes on the feudal levy (these are not part of the CA and are subject to change):



If CA14.7 passes, at the next Diet, I will allocate feudal levies to players who are lords of a settlement. They will be commensurate with the lord's age and experience. Players will have to look after them for 10 turns (the Chancellor may retrain them) – then at the subsequent Diets, there will be scope to upgrade levies or replace existing ones.

For players who want it, I will implement a points based system. For the others, the levy can be decided informally. I will balance informal allocations to be about equal to what would arise with a points based system.

Administratively, what I will do is that – at the start of each Diet – reorder stacks so that the existing levies are top units in each player’s stack. At the end of each Diet, I will change these levies to reflect any upgrades or replacements. In the interval, players should use the Chancellor and Governors' orders thread to post any instructions about upgrading their levies - either informal requests or choices based on the points system. If players give no instructions, I will use my own judgement and the points system to adjust the levies.

Upgrade paths (costs)

3^ANY |ONE MAX|TWO MAX|EITHER|OR
3^Spear|Cavalry (Non-knightly)|Missile|Foot knight|Knight
7^Peasant (1)|Peasant (1)|Peasant (1)|Peasant (1)|Peasant (1)
7^Town militia (2)|Town militia (2)|Peasant Archer (2)|Town militia (2)|Town militia (2)
7^Spear militia (3)|Spear militia (3)|Peasant Crossbow (3)|Spear militia (3)|Spear militia (3)
7^Spear Sergeant (4)|Spear Sergeant (4)|Pavise Crossbow (6)|Spear Sergeant (4)|Spear Sergeant (4)
7^Armoured Sergeant (5)|Armoured Sergeant (5)|Handgunner (7)|Armoured Sergeant (5)|Armoured Sergeant (5)
7^|Merchant Cavalry (7)|Arquebusier (8)|DFK (9)|Merchant Cavalry (7)
7^|Mounted Sergeant (9)||DIK (10)|Mounted Sergeant (9)
7^|Mounted Crossbow (11)||DGK (11)|Mailed knight (11)
7^|Reiters (12)|||Feudal Knight (12)
7^||||Imperial Knight (13)
7^||||Gothic Knight (14)

Note: All lords have FOUR units. High lords have one additional knight class units; the Kaiser has two additional knight class units.

Explanatory notes

In order to be eligible for a feudal levy, you must be lord of a settlement.
Counts and Dukes are lords of the settlements they govern. The Prinz and Kaiser are always lords.

If you cease being a lord, your levy is disbanded at the next Diet. (This represents the loss of the social and economic basis of your levy).

Lords are entitled to four units in a feudal levy. High lords (Dukes, King of Outremer, Prinz) are entitled to five; the Kaiser to six.

When players first become lords, they start off with a feudal levy of four peasants. Every Diet, a lord is given 10 points they may “spend” those points to upgrade their units (high lords are given 13 points; the Kaiser 15). The cost of the upgrade is the difference in the cost of the two units. Armor or weapon upgrades cost one point per upgrade per unit.

Steps on upgrade paths may be skipped if points allow (so a Feudal knight could be upgraded straight to Gothic). But units may only be upgraded to a unit on the same path. (e.g. an archer cannot be upgraded to a knight.)

Units can be retrained at no extra cost: sacrifice will be rewarded.
But lost units are replaced by peasants - look after your men.



5 The role of the Emperor and Prince

5.1 The Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet as in 3.9. He is the "chairman" of the HRE, as opposed to the Chancellor who is the "chief executive". He will keep order in the Diet and try to make things run smoothly.

5.2 Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.

5.3 The Emperor can allocate settlements to one of the Four Houses.

5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes.
Charter Amendment 11.7: The section of the Charter which currently reads "5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes" will be changed to the following: 5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes. However, if a rules dispute directly involves the Emperor, the four Dukes of the Realm (or their appointed deputies) will gather to assist the Emperor in clarifying the dispute. A simple vote among the Dukes would decide the dispute, with the Emperor having the tie-breaking vote.

5.5 The Prince succeeds the Emperor and can deputise in his absence.

Charter Amendment 11.2:The Prince is appointed by the Emperor upon his ascension to the throne. Should a Prince die a new heir has to be appointed immediately.[/i]

Charter Amendment 11.1: Whenever a large dispute arises over the legitamacy of one's succesion to a position of high power (Kaiser, King of Outremer, or Dukedom), a council shall be set forth to discuss the events and vote on who shal succede. Should the position of Kaiser be questioned, the four Dukes and the King of Outremer shall decide who is to become Kaiser. Should a Dukedom or the King of Outremer be under dispute, those not directly involved in the dispute shall be part of the council. In order for the council to be formed, at least one quarter of the voting power in the Reich is needed to for the council to be formed. Regarding the dukes, half of the voting period within the house is needed as the same with the King of Outremer which requires half of the crusader's votes.

5.6 Emperors do not belong to factions - if crowned, they leave their House and - if Duke - are replaced by their chosen successor. They are expected to act for the good of the Empire and be impartial, above petty regional politics.

5.7 The Emperor decides which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.

OOC CA 14.9: No Elector may recruit or command Dismounted Imperial Knights, Imperial Knights, or Gothic Knights without the Kaiser's approval.


6. Armies and Battles

Rules 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 have been removed.

6.4 For field armies of seven or more units (including the general), the Chancellor must appoint an “army commander”. The army commander must be a “knight”. Army commanders are appointed for the duration of the Imperial Diet session (10 turn intervals). The post is expected to be rotating. Army commanders can decide what to do with prisoners after battle. They can be dismissed by Chancellors, but must be informed of this.

6.5 Avatars who take part in battles may be promoted to “knights” by the army commander. Typically, this will involve the avatar’s bodyguard fighting honourably in a battle. The Emperor, Prince and four Dukes begin the game knighted.

6.6 The title of Field Marshall shall be given to the commanders of the Household Armies for the duration of their command.
Charter Amendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed.

Charter Amendment 5.1: Each Duchy shall have a Household Army with which to defend its territories. The Household Army will be governed by the following clauses:

1) The Household Army may not be removed from the House’s provinces without the permission of the Duke.
2) The Duke will determine where the Household Army is to be garrisoned. This location can be changed at any time, so long as the Duke informs the Chancellor of the move. The Chancellor will not remove the Household Army from the garrison without the Duke’s permission, except as required to fulfill Clause 4.
3) The Duke will determine who commands the Household Army.
4) At the beginning of each Diet session the Duke may assign general orders to the Household Army, which are to be carried out by the Chancellor. Between Diet sessions, any additional orders submitted by Dukes are to be implemented only at the Chancellor's discretion. The Duke may select one of the following Orders: (1) attack any rebel force in House territory, (2) attack any hostile force in House territory, including other factions, (3) attack any foreign or rebel army in House territory, including neutral (but not allied or crusading) factions, (4) temporary assignment to another House, (5) assignment to offensive duties. If Order (4) is chosen, the Duke may determine the time limit of the temporary assignment and the commanding general, but all other decisions are made by the Duke of the receiving house. When the time limit expires, the Household Army must be immediately returned to House lands, no matter what other circumstances occur, unless the Duke agrees otherwise. If Order (5) is chosen, the Duke may specify an enemy settlement or army as the objective and the commanding general. The settlement or army must be in a province that borders the House and the Reich must already be at war with the target. All other decisions are made by the Chancellor. The Duke may recall the Household Army from offensive duties at any time and for any reason.
5) The Household Army will consist of a minimum of 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. The Household Army will ideally consist of 4 infantry regiments, 3 ranged regiments, and 2 cavalry regiments. For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments. All regiments must be professional soldiers, not militia.
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
7) The Chancellor will attempt to maintain the Household Armies at full strength, with the highest quality regiments available.
8) In emergencies, the Chancellor may detach any units in excess of the minimum strength level for use elsewhere. The Chancellor may not reduce a Household Army below the minimum strength level without the permission of the Duke.
9) If the Imperial Treasury cannot support all Household Armies at minimum strength, the Chancellor must consult with the Dukes and receive their permission to reduce the Household Armies in such a way as to eliminate the deficit.
10) The Imperial Diet may temporarily remove any or all of these rules by a simple majority vote. The temporary period will last no longer than 10 turns.

Charter Amendment 12.6: (1) Each House will have TWO standing Household Armies. They will operate according to CA5.1 in all respects, but have separate commanders appointed by the Duke.
(2) Outremer will have two standing armies. They will operate in accordance with CA9.1, but have separate commanders appointed by the King.
(3) The Kaiser and Prinz will each command standing Imperial armies, of the guideline size given in CA5.1. The Kaiser and Prinz can each give orders for their army during full Diet sessions. They are expected to personally command their own armies but can nominate a replacement commander at any time if they are too busy attending to civil matters. The Chancellor and the Kaiser/Prinz are expected to liase closely over the use of the deployment of the Kaiser/Prinz's army.


7. Crusades and missions.

7.1 The Chancellor must endeavour to follow missions from the Pope and Council of Nobles, unless exempted by the Diet. Missions from guilds and foreign powers are optional.

7.2 Crusades must be authorised by the Diet, unless announced by another faction.

7.3 When a crusade is called, the Chancellor must ask all generals if they wish to join. He must include at least three volunteers who reply within 48 hours. If there are more than three, he must pick the three most pious. However, he can decline a volunteer if that would usurp his pick of army commander. If the AI calls a crusade, the Chancellor can choose not to follow it, even if generals wish to join - but he must still notify them immediately of the call and get their view on whether they would like to join (were he to follow the call).
Charter Amendment 14.2: A new Charter for Outremer is to be adopted, what is proposed below will completely replace all previous legislation relating to the Kingdom (Changes are in bold).

The Revised Charter of the Kingdom of Outremer
1. The Kingdom of Outremer will consist of Antioch, Acre and Adana as its core territories, they cannot be given or bartered away. If they are lost, they must be reclaimed as quickly as possible. The Kingdom may also include up to three more territories, with preference given to Aleppo, Damascus and Edessa. However, no conquest is allowed of any territories belonging to an ally.

2. The Kingdom of Outremer is an integral part of the Reich. It is not a fifth House.

3. The function of the Kingdom is mainly defensive: to safeguard Jerusalem and protect the gateway to Christendom. However, conquest is permitted against heathens and schismatics as long as it does not endanger the defense of Jerusalem. If a Pope assumes power who excommunicates the Reich, Jerusalem may be taken, if needed, as part of his removal, but it must be immediately donated back to the Church upon reconciliation.

4. The Kingdom will be overseen by a Viceroy of Outremer, who will be selected by the Emperor from among the current Crusaders. A Viceroy is appointed by the Emperor at each regular Diet Session. Viceroys may be reappointed. The Viceroy will renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his appointment. The Viceroy of Outremer is permitted to resign, if the Emperor is willing to accept the resignation, upon which a new Viceroy is appointed by the Emperor. If the Viceroy of Outremer is deemed incapable of his assignment, he may be impeached by the Emperor and two Dukes, by the Prince and three Dukes, or by the agreement of all four Dukes. Upon removal, the Emperor will appoint a new Viceroy.

5. The Viceroy will command an Army, equivalent to a Household Army with the Viceroy assuming the role of “Duke”. If the Kingdom is larger than or equal to three territories, a second such Army will be placed at his disposal. He may delegate the day to day command of the Army or Armies to other Generals.

6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusader Counts, except for the designated capital, which is the personal domain of the Viceroy. The Crusader Counts are appointed by the Viceroy and serve at his discretion. They will gain +1 influence, but only if they are not already a Count in their Duchy, and only for the duration of their appointment. The cap of 6 influence for all but the Emperor remains. If any County is left unassigned, the Viceroy will set the build queue for it.

7. Both the Viceroy and the Crusading Counts must be physically located outside Europe for the duration of their appointments.

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. While the loss of many of the original Outremer Counties currently negates apportionment by House, assignment of Counties will ensure that each Duchy is represented by a Crusader Count if one is present. All efforts will be made to assign a Swabian to Acre and a Bavarian to Adana. Once there are two newly acquired territories, they will be governed by representatives of Franconia and Austria. While historical precedents will be respected, priority will be given to Crusaders who are in Outremer.

9. The Viceroy of Outremer is allowed to propose two pieces of legislation per Diet Session related to Outremer. Prior to being tabled in the Diet, these must be seconded by two Crusaders, or if there is less than two Crusaders, one will suffice.

OOC: The Viceroy will have +2 influence as presently given to the King. All references in the Reich's Charter to the King of Outremer are to be changed to the Viceroy of Outremer.


8. Historical armies

Only historical armies can fight battles (ahistorical stacks can be used for transport).

No more than half an army can be mercenary. Crusader mercenaries (crusader sergeants, crusader knights, pilgrims, fanatics) can count as natives.

Revised maxima for each unit type by number of units in stack

3^Type|1-5|6-10|11-15|16+
7^Generals|2|2|2|2
7^Knights|2|4|6|8
7^Cavalry|2|4|6|8
7^Missile inf|2|3|4|6
7^Elite inf|2|3|4|6
7^Other foot|Any|Any|Any|Any
7^Artillery|1|2|3|4


Crusades are exempt from restrictions on the number of generals.

Unit type definitions:
- Knights: Dismtd Feudal knights; Dismtd Imperial knights; Dismtd Gothic knights; Mailed knights; Feudal knights; Imperial knights; Teutonic knights; General’s bodyguard; Gothic knights; plus any mercenary knights or equivalent heavy cavalry.
- Cavalry: Any mounted knights plus non-knightly cavalry (Mounted crossbowmen ; Reiters; Merchant cavalry; Mounted sergeants, Turcomans etc)
-Foot missiles: Peasant archers; Peasant crossbowmen; Crossbow militia; Pavisse crossbowmen; Arquebusiers; Handgunners etc
-Elite infantry: Zweihander; Forlorn Hope; Landsknechts; dismounted knights and equivalent mercs - e.g. Galllowglass
-Other foot: Peasants; Town militia; Halberd militia; Spear militia; Sergeant spearmen; Armoured spearmen; Crusader sergeants; Pike militia

Here's the old german titles of nobility and our equivalents:

Political
Elector = Kurfurst
Count = Graf
Duke = Herzog
Prince = Prinz
Emperor = Kaiser

Military
Knight = Ritter
Field Marshal = Generalfeldmarshal

_Tristan_
01-16-2008, 15:12
Tristan: Don't thank me, thank the AI. They just charged Hugo right in. Sometimes I think there is hope for it. :laugh4:

Then Hugo's lucky to be alive... :sweatdrop: at the end of his :charge:

I'm gonna burn a:candle:...

Anyway, now, I'm a :knight: ...

AussieGiant
01-16-2008, 15:42
Welcome to the HRE Knights club.

Life expectancy is dropping dramatically though, so be prepared. :beam:

econ21
01-16-2008, 16:31
I was going to say that now all players' avatars are knighted, but then I remembered about our newest one - Jan Zirn. Just to confirm - Roadkill has agreed to take him as his new avatar, after Lorenz Zirn's unfortunate demise.

We will arrange for a new avatar for Privateerkev when/if he returns, but for now I will leave him off the playlist (it's not clear which House he would wish to be in, for example).

AussieGiant
01-16-2008, 16:37
I was going to say that now all players' avatars are knighted, but then I remembered about our newest one - Jan Zirn. Just to confirm - Roadkill has agreed to take him as his new avatar, after Lorenz Zirn's unfortunate demise.

We will arrange for a new avatar for Privateerkev when/if he returns, but for now I will leave him off the playlist (it's not clear which House he would wish to be in, for example).

Thanks for the information Econ. I was unaware of that.

_Tristan_
01-16-2008, 17:53
Now that I'm knighted I hope I can finally use that "loathes the French fools" trait (+3 Command when fighting French...)

AussieGiant
01-16-2008, 18:14
Now that I'm knighted I hope I can finally use that "loathes the French fools" trait (+3 Command when fighting French...)

That would certainly seem to put you in a good postion to head west with the Kaisers army and block those two stacks coming through the French Alps.

The BHA's could then crush the Greeks or hold until Prinz Dieter comes up from Rome with another 3/4 stack.

AussieGiant
01-16-2008, 20:27
Hi FH,

1) I'm taking a look at the save. von Salza with the artillery can't move very far. So I assume you are talking about just him, or with the xbow's?

2) The SHA can move quite a distance. Is this move to the north or south side of the river directly below Dijon? And what exactly then does "southern tip" mean geographically.

3) I will reserve 1000 florins for the forts next turn.

Please get back to me.

FactionHeir
01-16-2008, 20:37
Hi AG,

The best way to describe it is to look at the save i uploaded (1352-3).
The outcome should look identical to that except with the SHA at the place of the captain rather than commanded directly by Salza.

AussieGiant
01-16-2008, 20:39
Ok that's great. I'll take a look and do that.

deguerra
01-16-2008, 22:33
sorry AG, I wanst sure from your post in the Orders thread, and I cant see the save atm, is Bruges still under siege?

thanks for the "doing an excellent job", I'm, ahem, in complete control of the situation.:clown:

FactionHeir
01-16-2008, 22:53
French broke off the siege of Bruges.

deguerra
01-16-2008, 23:09
ah, thanks FH!

*runs to the walls of Bruges, shouting at the French forces, miles away by now: "Yeah you'd better run you silly French knnnnnniggets. I wipe my nose in your general direction. Your father was a hamster, and your mother smelled of elderberries. We Flemish Swabians sure showed you" He is dragged away by embarrased town guards*

:clown:

AussieGiant
01-16-2008, 23:22
Hi all,

Ok there is just one defensive attack. And guess what, the avatar lead French stack is attacking von Salza with the 1st SHA as reinforcements.

Warluster you're up, the save and instructions are in the orders thread as usual.

deguerra,

don't count your chickens just yet fella. It might not be that way for long.

deguerra
01-16-2008, 23:25
I know:beam: But those sinful vile French heretic scum (they are excommunicted again, right?) will break on the walls of my fair town and be scewered on the points of Flemish pike as they have before! :yes:

AussieGiant
01-16-2008, 23:25
HOLD on the save. I need to add money!!

FH caught me just in time. New Save will go up in 10!!

-edit-

done and good night.

Warluster
01-17-2008, 05:56
Sorry can't fight it. Either deguerra or FH are going to have to fight it for me. I will post my situation in Acive Duty thread. Still don't have 1.2 (And won't for a while)

deguerra
01-17-2008, 06:51
I am capable of fighting it, but would prefer FH to do it, if he's up for it. I'm no M2TW veteran, and this seems like a very important battle for Swabia. On that note, if its FH that plays and he fails, I vote to excommunicate him

:clown:

econ21
01-17-2008, 10:04
Sorry - no proxying, AussieGiant should autoresolve the battle and move on to the next turn.

If players are on reserve duty, they should inform the Chancellor in advance and he will try to keep them out of danger. Warluster did not do that - he mentioned difficulties in the OOC thread last week, but then reported that they were being solved and did not update the active duty list. He also turned down both AussieGiant's and my suggestions for "safe" moves for von Salza this turn. I had a PM exchange with Factionheir in which I questioned whether Warluster could pull off the high risk move that von Salza has taken, but Factionheir went ahead and ordered it anyway.

I am loathe to have other players act as subs for army commanders. We allowed that with AussieGiant in the past because he contributed a lot to the role-playing without an avatar for months and then, when he finally got an avatar, had to go away on business for months. However, even then I felt uneasy about his avatar accumulating vast amounts of battle traits based in part on other players fighting the battles. At the time, we did not have many (any?) other Austrian avatars, so it was pretty much a necessity in game terms and not such a big deal OOC. But it does not seem right that we have players who can fight kicking their heels while players who can't fight have their avatars pick up the traits and players who may have armies and battles of their own also fight other people's battles.

Keeping the close bond between the avatar and the player adds a lot to the role-playing of the game, increases the challenge for the Reich and helps share out the battles to available players. I would only offer the deal we offered AussieGiant to another player reluctantly - much better, I think, to have their avatar find a replacement army commander, move to a safer spot and do some civic work governing a city. If you want to get lots of battle traits, fight the battles. I am not inclined to offer it just because a player doesn't install 1.2.

FactionHeir
01-17-2008, 10:21
Sorry - no proxying, AussieGiant should autoresolve the battle and move on to the next turn.

If players are on reserve duty, they should inform the Chancellor in advance and he will try to keep them out of danger. Warluster did not do that - he mentioned difficulties in the OOC thread last week, but then reported that they were being solved and did not update the active duty list. He also turned down both AussieGiant's and my suggestions for "safe" moves for von Salza this turn. I had a PM exchange with Factionheir in which I questioned whether Warluster could pull off the high risk move that von Salza has taken, but Factionheir went ahead and ordered it anyway.

I am loathe to have other players act as subs for army commanders. We allowed that with AussieGiant in the past because he contributed a lot to the role-playing without an avatar for months and then, when he finally got an avatar, had to go away on business for months. However, even then I felt uneasy about his avatar accumulating vast amounts of battle traits based in part on other players fighting the battles. At the time, we did not have many (any?) other Austrian avatars, so it was pretty much a necessity in game terms and not such a big deal OOC. But it does not seem right that we have players who can fight kicking their heels while players who can't fight have their avatars pick up the traits and players who may have armies and battles of their own also fight other people's battles.

Keeping the close bond between the avatar and the player adds a lot to the role-playing of the game, increases the challenge for the Reich and helps share out the battles to available players. I would only offer the deal we offered AussieGiant to another player reluctantly - much better, I think, to have their avatar find a replacement army commander, move to a safer spot and do some civic work governing a city. If you want to get lots of battle traits, fight the battles. I am not inclined to offer it just because a player doesn't install 1.2.

Placeholder reply. Need to catch a train first.

AussieGiant
01-17-2008, 10:29
Placeholder reply. Need to catch a train first.

:sweatdrop:

deguerra
01-17-2008, 10:33
Fair enough econ, I did not know about the subbing rules. All good from my end.

AussieGiant
01-17-2008, 10:49
Fair enough econ, I did not know about the subbing rules. All good from my end.


Subbing rules a very important deguerra, and my situation last year was pretty unique in this game.

deguerra
01-17-2008, 10:59
As I said, I have no complaints with either the rules or how they are and were implemented. I don't really know the situation you were in, but I'm happy to take your word for it. As I said, all good from my end.

FactionHeir
01-17-2008, 11:04
Meh, didn't use the placeholder afterall:

Anyway, three things that should be considered before making a hasty decision:

1. The OOC CA econ wrote and linked to in the old OOC thread yesterday is vaguely worded as he suggests.


Originally Posted by Post #1
OOC Charter Amendment:
(a) Where there are multiple player controlled generals in a stack, then the player who plays out the battle is determined by who the computer designates is in command.
(b) An exception is that Household Armies (and the Army of Outremer) are always commanded by the designated Commander of said army.
(c) The commanding general may allow another player to fight a battle by mutual consent for OOC reasons.

As you can see, both points b and c could apply to this situation.


2. Whether Warluster can be subbed for depends on how long he wont be able to fight battles. If it is above the limit set (3 weeks), then anyone designated by him should and will be able to play his battles.


3. By precedent, players who had not been away for extended periods of time nor were otherwise eligible to be subbed for have been subbed for by other players not in their stack. This means that not allowing it in this (more legitimate case) we are disadvantaging Warluster. All of this happened after the CA regarding proxying has been passed AND outside the cataclysm period. Post battle results have always been accepted as well even when the issue was pointed out to econ.

Therefore, I would say subbing should be allowed for this particular case.

Warluster
01-17-2008, 11:18
May I add to said things; If I had the option of installing 1.2 I would; the only thing stopping me is that it is MASSVIE to me. Downloading it will take at least 9 hours for me, and I don't have 9 hours to download a Patch. There is a slight chance a known company over here in Aus might put it on there Cd, or Kingdoms will work for me, but neither are happening.

If I could install 1.2, I would! I love playing KOTR! But my old game was stuffed so I reinstalled and had to delete my old 1.2 Setup (Had a virus in it) If I manage to find time I will download it but I forsee it will be qutie a while before such a thing as Spare Time comes along. Sorry for the incovenience but a string of bad luck has happened.

deguerra
01-17-2008, 11:25
once again, Warluster, if you let me know where you live I might be able to work something out...

AussieGiant
01-17-2008, 11:36
Dear All,

On a related note, I'd like to request that all players update their Duty Roster as it is vitally important. The Chancellor then has at least a fighting chance to avoid Auto resolves.

I was under the impression I knew who was available and who was not.

Thanks everyone.

Cheers
AG

econ21
01-17-2008, 11:48
1. The OOC CA econ wrote and linked to in the old OOC thread yesterday is vaguely worded as he suggests.

As you can see, both points b and c could apply to this situation.

The OOC CA was intended to deal with controversies over who is in command when several generals involved in a battle want to fight it - not to deal with cases where none do. As I explained, it was loosely worded and I am sorry for that. But clause (c) - "The commanding general may allow another player to fight a battle by mutual consent for OOC reasons. " - was meant to qualify clause "(a)Where there are multiple player controlled generals in a stack, then the player who plays out the battle is determined by who the computer designates is in command" . That is to say, if there are two generals in a stack, one is the boss but he can allow the other to fight the battle for OOC reasons. That's what has just happened with GH. If the CA is not read in that context, it would allow anyone to fight anyone else's battles, which is not something we have ever allowed.

As for clause (b), I never envisaged two commanders for one army and certainly one that was not even stacked with it. Frankly, I don't like that arrangement at all. An army commander should be stacked with the army - it's not remotely plausible that Ruppel besieged in Dijon can command the SHA. And there should only be one commander per army. (what's next? two heirs? two Dukes?) I can't think of a military that would tolerate two commanders with equal standing of one formation - it sounds like a recipe for disaster (as here).


2. Whether Warluster can be subbed for depends on how long he wont be able to fight battles. If it is above the limit set (3 weeks), then anyone designated by him should and will be able to play his battles.

I am reluctant to allow subbing in this context. One issue is the lack of notice. The subbing was not arranged in advance. We have an active duty list to sort this kind of stuff out. If players can just change their status when faced with a battle and then immediately find a sub, then the whole system of 48 hour deadlines and the threat of autocalc is undermined.

More importantly, as explained, I am reluctant to allowing people to remain on active duty with a sub unless there are very strong reasons. And not patching to 1.2 does not seem like a good enough reason to warrant an indefinite proxy. IMO Warluster should be on reserve duty, not active duty with a sub. I don't want to sound too harsh, but if he wants his avatar to fight battles, then he should patch his game and fight them himself.


3. By precedent, players who had not been away for extended periods of time nor were otherwise eligible to be subbed for have been subbed for by other players not in their stack. This means that not allowing it in this (more legitimate case) we are disadvantaging Warluster. All of this happened after the CA regarding proxying has been passed AND outside the cataclysm period. Post battle results have always been accepted as well even when the issue was pointed out to econ.


I don't know of the specific cases you are thinking of, but I fear you are right. We have not been consistent about subbing, but we did try to tighten up on it a while back. I know I have a tendency to rule "play on" if a save is uploaded despite some rule being broken. However, we are not faced with a fait accompli here. And I would like to adhere to a together standard on subbing.

Right now, no player should expect to be able to stay on active duty with a sub unless they can make a very good case for it. Not being able to patch until June just does not cut it.

I realise this leaves Ruppel (and Swabia) in a bind, but he still has 8 turns to be relieved and if the Kaiser/Bavarians can assist, the situation looks salvageable. If there was only one turn left before Dijon fell, I would cut you a break and allow a sub. But where we are now, I would rather we play out the challenging situation we will be presented post-autocalc rather than effectively allow Ruppel to sneak across Dijon's walls and lead the SHA into battle.

FactionHeir
01-17-2008, 12:48
The issue is not that Warluster does not want to patch his game but that he does not have the means to do so in the near future, meaning he is prevented from doing so.
That and he needs 1.3, meaning double the size of 1.2

You are correct that it would be unrealistic for Ruppel to fight it, so deguerra can do it. Distance has not played a role in past subbing.

econ21
01-17-2008, 13:22
The issue is not that Warluster does not want to patch his game but that he does not have the means to do so in the near future, meaning he is prevented from doing so.
That and he needs 1.3, meaning double the size of 1.2.

I know - I am not unsympathetic. If von Salza's life (or Ruppel's) depended on it, I would compromise. I don't want any player to lose their avatar because of OOC technical problems, still less becase of a disputed ruling by me. But we are not in a life or death situation here (yet). Bear in mind we are not talking about Warluster being unable to patch in the near future - we are apparently talking about not patching until June.

Subbing was considered for situations where people were away for long periods of time. Not patching your game is not being away. Kotr switched to 1.3 a long time ago and having a properly patched version of the game should be a requirement of full participation in the PBM.

By the same token, I am not going to allow Roadkill to use a sub if he is still without M2TW. When Roadkill was new to the PBM, we allowed that to cut him a break but it does not seem a proper long term solution. Now he has a new avatar, and given the current Swabian case, he should be considered to be on reserve duty unless he confirms he has a fully patched and kotorfixed game installed.

At the time of posting, there are no players with arrangements for proxying in place. If a player's avatar is involved in a battle, they or another player whose avatar is in the same battle, has to fight it within 48 hours or it will be autocalced. This has quite serious implications for the game - not just for Swabia, but also for the Magdeburg three (who might all be killed if an autocalced siege assault leads to their defeat) and also the Kaiser's army (which seems now to have no commander who can fight Monday to Thursday). Personally, I think the constraints introduced by the risk of autocalc go some way to offsetting the weak AI and add some needed tension to our game.

AussieGiant
01-17-2008, 14:02
Just to be sure, I'll repeat my post from before.

Can everyone please update the Duty Roster to reflect their status.

Warluster if you could please select something more appropriate for your current and final status for the time being? That would be good.

Franconia is also clearly not accurate given the last few turns of three avatars in Magdeburg.

EF is on active duty, Dutch_guy is technically back therefore I assumed on Active Duty and Flydude is not even on the list.

Roadkill will also have commit or find another option.

Given the tightening of the rules in this regard, if things don't start becoming more accurate I'll have to reorganise the overall commands to avoid my Chancellorship being a little to "auto-calcy" for my liking.

For example Austria...I've got three active commanders and I'll use them to the exclusion of the others unless proven otherwise.

FactionHeir
01-17-2008, 14:44
I know - I am not unsympathetic. If von Salza's life (or Ruppel's) depended on it, I would compromise. I don't want any player to lose their avatar because of OOC technical problems, still less becase of a disputed ruling by me. But we are not in a life or death situation here (yet). Bear in mind we are not talking about Warluster being unable to patch in the near future - we are apparently talking about not patching until June.

Subbing was considered for situations where people were away for long periods of time. Not patching your game is not being away. Kotr switched to 1.3 a long time ago and having a properly patched version of the game should be a requirement of full participation in the PBM.


Fully understand your views and without sounding overly stubborn, I would still like to say that Warluster is not intentionally not patching to allow others to play his battles but that he was able to play up until recently until a virus messed up his install. He wants to patch but he is not able to do so due to limited availability of internet. He certainly is trying to get back quickly, but it may take a while and I think its reasonable to allow for some subbing...

econ21
01-17-2008, 15:59
I understand Factionheir. However, as far as I can make out, Warluster has not manually fought a KotR battle in last six months since he resigned as Kaiser. I am wondering now if he has been unable even to consult savegames for quite a while; if so, it does change somethings - he may need other players to act as his "eyes" so to speak.

AussieGiant will be autocalcing the battle when he gets back to the game. I know there will be fraught military and perhaps political implications of what is likely to be a defeat, but it would be good if we try to discuss them in character rather than OOC. The Diet/House threads need a shot in the arm and debating strategy in character is one way to keep things lively.

FactionHeir
01-17-2008, 16:34
He has not been able to check the savegame since then I believe as so far I have always given him updates of the game via PM.

That also explains why he wrote "Huge Stone Wall" for Staufen for instance

Ferret
01-17-2008, 19:37
Franconia is also clearly not accurate given the last few turns of three avatars in Magdeburg.

EF is on active duty, Dutch_guy is technically back therefore I assumed on Active Duty and Flydude is not even on the list.


sorry my internet went down after my last post so I've only just found out it is under siege again, is it too late to sally? Do I have to sally, I'd rather just defend an assault again?

Ramses II CP
01-17-2008, 22:20
I think Madgeburg just has a Polish army sitting outside the walls, not holding it under siege, but there's another stack and a half of Polish troops within striking distance. No idea if any of them have artillery.

:egypt:

Ignoramus
01-18-2008, 00:02
I'm sorry guys, but I'll have to drop out of the PBM. My brother's moving to Adelaide and taking his computer with him, so I won't be able to play MTWII. I might participate in the next game though.

It's been great being part of this PBM and I've had lots of fun.

Ramses II CP
01-18-2008, 00:23
It's been good playing with you Igno. Hummel's first PvP battle was one of the main reasons I joined, it looked like such a blast. :yes:

:egypt:

econ21
01-18-2008, 01:53
I'm sorry to see you leave, Ignoramus. You need to lobby your folks to get you a computer like your brother's. They are educational, you know... :lam:

GeneralHankerchief
01-18-2008, 02:18
Sad to see you go, Ignoramus. Your talents at creating drama will certainly be missed.

Zim
01-18-2008, 02:20
Bad luck, Ignoramus. Serving under Hummel was so exciting when I made my new character I had to go to Outremer to get my fix of impossible odds! :beam:

Will you still be with us in the Victonia game?

gibsonsg91921
01-18-2008, 02:47
Aww.. bye Iggy. Both Ulrich and Wolfgang are legendary characters. Too bad Hapsburg didn't get a chance to develop much, that name just means too much. Sad to see ya go. I'm probably the youngest in the PBM now, after Mini Econ.

deguerra
01-18-2008, 02:53
Yeh sorry to see you go Ignoramus, I have only you to thank for getting me started up and playing such an interesting character! Hope to see you back sometimes.



I'm probably the youngest in the PBM now, after Mini Econ.

ok, now im interested. how old is everybody? I'm 20 myself

gibsonsg91921
01-18-2008, 02:55
16, like the Green Day song.

Zim
01-18-2008, 03:05
An ancient 24 here. :clown:


ok, now im interested. how old is everybody? I'm 20 myself

Ramses II CP
01-18-2008, 03:42
Pfft, I'm so old I have to ask my wife how old I am, you bunch of kids.

31 :clown:

Okay, maybe not so old I should forget, but after a certain age it just doesn't matter as much anymore. :laugh4:

:egypt:

Northnovas
01-18-2008, 05:07
Another Austrian loss. Sorry to see you go but these things called computers can be educational.:book:
You definietly brought some drama to the game.


Okay, maybe not so old I should forget, but after a certain age it just doesn't matter as much anymore.

Nicely said after a certain number it doesn't matter.

OverKnight
01-18-2008, 07:46
What is this the Children's Crusade? Gah!

We're going to be ruled by teenagers for the next two generations!

Get off my lawn! Where's my free money!? I'm cold and there are wolves after me.

32

Edit: Sad to see you go Ignoramus, I was waiting for the day when you rebelled again, attempting to unify Austria, Flanders and Spain under the Hapsburg banner.

AussieGiant
01-18-2008, 08:47
Igno!!!

You can't go man!! I was waiting for that Hapsburg guy to go on a tear and create history!!

When you came over to Austria I had a huge smile on my face and said; "oh dear, the neighbourhood just got a little more interesting!!"

Your first set of PM's to me about your plans made me fall out of my chair :2thumbsup:

Lobby the parent's like mad

double standards (brother has one)
learning tool
comprehension and reading device
entertainment
show mum how to online shop
hell show dad too
get the groceries delivered to your door

it's a crime not to have a pc as a young man growing up

as for age...then lets not got there.

Above 34 and lower that 36

_Tristan_
01-18-2008, 09:21
You're all a bunch of kids...

I'm 36 ... and still kicking...

AussieGiant
01-18-2008, 09:32
You're all a bunch of kids...

I'm 36 ... and still kicking...

Yes the French age well Tristan just like their wine :beam:

_Tristan_
01-18-2008, 09:36
Yes the French age well Tristan just like their wine :beam:

:laugh4: so true, so true...

econ21
01-18-2008, 09:44
...Ignoramus, I was waiting for the day when you rebelled again, attempting to unify Austria, Flanders and Spain under the Hapsburg banner.

Good grief - I did not see that coming. And to think I was going to give him Antwerp to get started. :sweatdrop:

Ignoramus
01-18-2008, 12:04
To the inspiring Duke of Austria, Arnold Salian, greetings.

Mein lord,

We are an illustrious family, but sad to say, we have no connections with the Imperial family, and thus our prominence is but at best a shadow of what it is.

However, I have some serious news to bear to you.

As Duke of Austria, you have the ability to raise an Austrian to the Imperial throne itself!

You may think I am mad. Indeed, at first, even mein father thought I was mad. But nein, if things fall out properly, the Imperial Diet of 1380 will be headed by one of Austrian lineage.

As it stands, Kaiser Elberhard has no sons. At such a time as we are now facing, it is madness to think of lifting a woman to throne(never mind the fact that such an act is not permitted in the Imperial succession). Because of this, the Kaiser has appointed Peter von Kastilien, a Lutheran, a former rebel, and what's worse, a Franconian, as his heir.

However, the ageing Kaiser has taken mein suit of his eldest daughter, Eue, kindly. He has indicated that should I prove myself worthy, he will likely bestow her hand to me in marriage. As her dowry, Princess Eue would bring the Netherlands into Austria' fold.

The result of this marriage, however, has implications far greater than you can imagine. Should Peter von Kastilien perish before the Kaiser, he would be free to transfer the succession to myself, and thus Austria would have her first Kaiser.

As Chancellor, you can accomplish this feat.

Your new subject,
Maximillian von Hapsburg.

That's the first message I sent AussieGiant. My plot was to get Hapsburg married to Eue and then get Arnold to kill off Peter before Elberhard died, thus making Hapsburg Prinz. When Elberhard died, I would become Kaiser, and thus automatically assume the Chancellorship after Arnold had finished his term. I was then going to transfer the Imperial capital to Vienna, assign all Imperial lands to Austria, and attempt to reduce the other Duchies to vassalage. A shame that didn't happen...

OverKnight
01-18-2008, 12:08
Whoa, I was just guessing because of the name and your playing history, but that's ambitious even for you. :sweatdrop:

Ignoramus
01-18-2008, 12:15
I know, but rebels get all the fun. Sigismund der Stolze was very enjoyable to play, in fact he's basically the only character to be universally admired. That's mainly because he was so loyal and unassuming that he wasn't a threat to anyone. Assassination was a fitting(but infuriating) end for him.

Is there any non-MTW2 role I could have?

AussieGiant
01-18-2008, 13:22
That's the first message I sent AussieGiant. My plot was to get Hapsburg married to Eue and then get Arnold to kill off Peter before Elberhard died, thus making Hapsburg Prinz. When Elberhard died, I would become Kaiser, and thus automatically assume the Chancellorship after Arnold had finished his term. I was then going to transfer the Imperial capital to Vienna, assign all Imperial lands to Austria, and attempt to reduce the other Duchies to vassalage. A shame that didn't happen...


As you can see gentlemen it was a hell of a start to his relationship to Arnold.

Things were discussed from then on IC and Arnold was starting to go down a path of no return on the matter...

...at some point I pulled out of the Dark Emperor spiral and said to Igno;

"Listen you crazy nutter, before I go and turn this whole thing on it's head, why don't you go get yourself hitch to Eue...then we'll talk further."

I then sat in real life looking at the map for a long long time.......the thing was doable as chancellor given Igno succeeded in getting married.

I then thought in horror what would happen if he somehow did get married to her and then came back and said; "ok lets get this thing started."

:2thumbsup:

GeneralHankerchief
01-18-2008, 14:23
Oh God... imagine the possibilities if Elberhard had stayed alive for one more turn. :hide:

Ferret
01-18-2008, 17:54
ha! I'm only 15! But the reason I came on was to say my internet is going on and off like a yo yo at the moment so I'm going on reserve duty unfortunately and may not be able to post as much as I should. As for Franconia uhhhh Dieter is suffering from the plague so Fritz can be Steward for now.

AussieGiant
01-18-2008, 20:01
OK chaps.

Big night. This turn will end and we'll get to the offensive season of the next turn tonight.

I get the impression the first half of 1354 could be interesting.

Ok then 1352 is complete. It was sieging season it seems.

FactionHeir
01-18-2008, 22:05
Out of curiosity, were you able to retreat from the French attack at all?

FactionHeir
01-18-2008, 22:13
Hmm I just loaded the old save and ending turn allowed both Salza and the SHA to retreat from battle.

I would like to request that this be done instead of autoresolve as Warluster was not able to fight and it was not a vital battle that he would have had to fight.

As the new save is not yet modified, that should not pose a problem I believe.

AussieGiant
01-18-2008, 23:14
Riiight FH so guess what happens in the re-run when I retreat the Swabian Duke and his SHA?

Have a guess?

And once you've guessed, would you prefer I re run it until the future comes out in a favourable fashion?

FactionHeir
01-18-2008, 23:15
Other events might change ever so slightly with some degree of possibility, but nothing major I am sure.
Still, in the interest of fairness, I believe that since he was unable to fight a defensive (not an offensive) battle, he should be allowed to retreat. Other players have been allowed that as well.

AussieGiant
01-18-2008, 23:23
Other events might change ever so slightly with some degree of possibility, but nothing major I am sure.


I die....that seems quite a pleasant view from where I'm sitting. :inquisitive:

Call me old fashioned but I'll stick with the first version of events.

https://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x79/aussiegiant/1354/medieval22008-01-1823-13-27-00.jpg

Zim
01-18-2008, 23:23
He's attacked again but out of movement points so he and the whole SHA die?


Riiight FH so guess what happens in the re-run when I retreat the Swabian Duke and his SHA?

Have a guess?

And once you've guess FH, would you prefer I re run it until the future comes out in a favourable fashion?

FactionHeir
01-18-2008, 23:51
He's attacked again but out of movement points so he and the whole SHA die?

I think AG meant Arnold might die from plague.

I shall upload my end turn then where no one died from plague on ending turn and retreating.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1354-alt.zip

Northnovas
01-19-2008, 00:06
I think AG meant Arnold might die from plague.

I shall upload my end turn then where no one died from plague on ending turn and retreating.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1354-alt.zip

:gah: why is this whole Sawbia thing growing the way it is? The perfect moves could not be completed because a player is not available. Lets move on if something is lost we can get it back. Everyone wanted a challenge.
If this save was played on everyone's computer we would ended up with a variety of saved versions some good some not so good. Which ones do we keep?
1354 please.......

FactionHeir
01-19-2008, 00:13
:gah: why is this whole Sawbia thing growing the way it is? The perfect moves could not be completed because a player is not available. Lets move on if something is lost we can get it back. Everyone wanted a challenge.
If this save was played on everyone's computer we would ended up with a variety of saved versions some good some not so good. Which ones do we keep?
1354 please.......

Because AG ended up autoresolving the battle that could have been avoided by retreating. None of the Swabians actually wanted it autoresolved in the first place, so this pretty much went against the players' wishes even though it did not have to.

Cecil XIX
01-19-2008, 00:21
That's the first message I sent AussieGiant. My plot was to get Hapsburg married to Eue and then get Arnold to kill off Peter before Elberhard died, thus making Hapsburg Prinz. When Elberhard died, I would become Kaiser, and thus automatically assume the Chancellorship after Arnold had finished his term. I was then going to transfer the Imperial capital to Vienna, assign all Imperial lands to Austria, and attempt to reduce the other Duchies to vassalage. A shame that didn't happen...

Sorry to see you go, Ignoramus. It's too bad that plan wasn't able to get going, it would have made for a great set-up to a civil war.

Northnovas
01-19-2008, 00:44
FH I can see your point so what is the official save right now? The one by AG in the orders thread?

Zim
01-19-2008, 00:55
FH I can see your point so what is the official save right now? The one by AG in the orders thread?

I'd wait on AussieGiant's word before taking either save. Both he and Econ21 ruled in on the battle having to be autoresolved because the orders were given and Warluster was unable to fight the battle (and didn't put himself on reserve duty, in which case he'd not be put in such a situation). THere may have been a mistake made in that the Swabians (my own House) weren't given a chance to change their orders once apprised of the situation. If so I'm sure they'll address it.

I mean, it's tough enough being Chancellor, doing all that work, all the while knowing you'll be blamed for any mistake you make in-game in the IC threads. Compounding that by having players unilaterally making changes to the saves without permission just makes it worse. :yes:

AussieGiant
01-19-2008, 01:09
FH, at no time did anyone ask for a retreat at any point in this whole story even though I can only assume there was some considerable time spent looking at the save and assessing the options available.

Not one word was said since Wednesday afternoon and into that space Econ had spelled out explicitly the next step which was an auto-calc and still there was no word of requesting a retreat.

I end the turn, spend 90 minutes getting the thing written up, then you request a re-do.

I then re-do the turn because I see your point to a certain degree, of course luck would have it my character dies.

You then give me your save and say take that one instead.

At this point I have to say that the situation stands as is. The report is valid and the save posted there is the one we go on with.

It's not a major problem but just another set back.

-Edit-

The 24 hours starts now and I'll ask everyone to follow the rules in this regard because they are basically for everyone's protection.

If you take the save you fight...period, nothing more. Otherwise place your suggestions in the orders thread. OK for example uses a system that means there is little room for error when he needs something a little more complex...use that if you would like.

FactionHeir
01-19-2008, 02:03
No one mentioned the retreat option because Warluster cannot access the game and on my end when I first tried it, it didn't even come to any battle, therefore I couldn't have known that there was a retreat option.

However, as with any good judgement, when you see a battle screen pop up and you know the player cannot fight the battle and will most likely lose if autoresolved, you truly ought to press retreat if that is an option and previous chancellors have always done so without exception from my own knowledge.

Not blaming you, but if you had uplaoded the save at the pre battle screen and I had seen the retreat option earlier, I would definitely have spelt that out, but in some ways it should have been the obvious choice for you to make.

On the other hand, econ said autoresolve it because he also is unlikely to have known of a retreat option and if he did, he would have mentioned it.
So it really does kind of boil down to people not being able to actually see their options all the time. Using an analogy, if you ask someone if they want a banana or a car, how likely is it that this person or anyone else will answer "give me a watch"?

From my point of view, we already have prevented Warluster from fighting or having a proxy. There is little reason to also force a defeat and the pague upon him for an autoresolve that should never have happened in the first place.
Considering that no one has touched the save since, I also do not see any reason not to use the save I uploaded if you do not want Arnold to die (which is the other option).

Similarly, you would not have to spend ages on a new write up as there are no largely different events at all and I have sent you all necessary screenshots.

For the moment I would say that the save should be frozen until econ makes a judgement on this matter, because you already managed to infect the SHA without anyone with the authority asking for it and it was ruled in your favor already. I don't see why Swabia should take a hit a second time due to your doings without appeal. :yes:

econ21
01-19-2008, 03:53
Let's not make a drama out of a crisis. The Chancellor ended the turn and posted a report - we should not try to turn back time.

It is ok to retreat before battle to avoid an autoresolve, but it did not happen this time and so let's live with the consequences.

Not every move we make is going to be perfect - Elberhard would still be Kaiser if it were. We do our best but sometimes we slip up.

Reloading after a mistake is fine for individual's own private games, but I don't think it is what we want to start doing in a cooperative PBM like this.

AussieGiant
01-19-2008, 09:28
FH, Econ

FH, I will take your save and readjust the report to reflect the altered universe.

This is the final ripple effect of what I regard as series of events that have occurred from trying to have a whole Duchy plus multiple avatar's micro managed by you on behalf of Warluster for the most part. This is the final effect of this issue in my mind.

You're point has weight but it is not an overwhelmingly strong argument given the step by step issues we've had to "Manage" over the last two or three turns.

I've always tried to accommodate your wishes from the very beginning and I've given far more access to the save than anyone else because of the style of play you have which is incredibly detailed and shows an understanding of the game that is truly amazing.

You're a 1%er player FH, that means your in the top 1% in my mind, but you also play for that extra 1% on any and every move. You can't expect others to be even close.

I'm trying to be fair and stay conscious of how things can be perceived from another other sides of the coin.

You talk about "your" version of the save, and when things happened to "you" when "you" did it...I think the point needs to be made...I'm not interested in "your" version of events unless "you're" the Chancellor.

So if you want to make comments about my judgment, then l'd ask you to assess yours, from my point of view.

If you want to run the show, then get elected, otherwise it's not "your" version I think, I need, to use.

So that's the end of it...in more ways than one.

-Edit-

And just a open comment to all...please, pretty please don't bring up any altered events that put you in a worse position than the original save. If you do I might just go insane. And when I re-read the Chancellor's powers...then Igno comes to mind, plus I could defend nearly everything I do with an appropriate piece of legislation. :-)

And the 24 hours started yesterday...

Report is change and the new save is 1354-2 for anyone who wants it.

FactionHeir
01-19-2008, 13:44
Thanks AG. Since I'll be mostly absent for a week in a few days, you shouldn't have to deal with much there :bow: :grin:

AussieGiant
01-19-2008, 16:51
Thanks AG. Since I'll be mostly absent for a week in a few days, you shouldn't have to deal with much there :bow: :grin:

You're cheeky too :balloon2:

I don't want you not to be involved FH.

My best case scenario is you involved a lot, not taking a leave of absence from the game. I just want us to be able to find some ground on which we can work and have fun with this game. I'm conscious of the fact that you might not be having fun, and it's because of the way things have gone working with me on it.

Cheers.

Warmaster Horus
01-19-2008, 20:07
Sorry to see you go Ignoramus. Having that plot twist would have been quite something.

I might not be as active as before (my parents are suing a business, so they need the internet), but I'll still check in every couple of days.

AussieGiant
01-20-2008, 12:10
Hi All,

I'm going to end our Offensive season this afternoon and begin our defense this evening.

The parking lot around Milan would be nice to clear of at least the Greeks.

_Tristan_
01-20-2008, 14:27
Hugo de Cervole

I would rather remain tribune to the Legion der Krone than go north to Swabia at this time... unless you see it as truly necessary to the interests of Swabia...

[edit] OOps, wrong thread...

AussieGiant
01-20-2008, 14:58
Hugo de Cervole

I would rather remain tribune to the Legion der Krone than go north to Swabia at this time... unless you see it as truly necessary to the interests of Swabia...

[edit] OOps, wrong thread...

Put that in the Diet thread then I'll get back to you :-)

In fact unless taking the save or posting orders the it's best to be in the Diet rather than the Orders thread. Discussing strategy is going to just make the reports spread out over pages.

AussieGiant
01-20-2008, 17:36
FH,

I couldn't believe it either.

The movie came up and it was the same as the unsuccessful Breslau one for me, I thought, ok cool here is the successful version of this movie...

then I just shook my head in bewilderment as he got stabbed to death in the cart AGAIN.

AussieGiant
01-20-2008, 19:27
I could find you a hot date for the rest of your life GH!!

Your mother will be proud of you!!!

God, get em bowy!!

I didn't realise how much I've gotten into this game...

and bloody hell you better hope the reinforcements turn up. They didn't when I took a look. It went badly...I should have retreated...you both died and the army was destroyed.

GeneralHankerchief
01-20-2008, 20:44
That was the craziest battle I have ever fought in my Total War career. Without a doubt.

Reinforcements showed up... both major armies. Thank God, too, because we needed 'em. I'm still not sure how we won, because I missed about 2/3 of the battle focusing on my part.

Warmaster Horus, I'm so sorry, we lost Karolinger. I didn't even know it happened until after the battle. I know how it feels to lose a character when it's under somebody else's control.

https://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/GeneralHankerchief/KotR/kotr_210.jpg

I'm going to refight the battle later and try to take some appropriate screenshots to do this thing justice, but for now I need to rest. Again, really really sorry WH.

Warmaster Horus
01-20-2008, 21:03
It's no problem. At least I/he served a purpose...
I can understand how that kind of thing happens. I'll wait for the battle report.

FactionHeir
01-20-2008, 21:07
Does that mean I get to flame GH in the diet for once? :grin:

AussieGiant
01-20-2008, 21:16
Hi All,

No defensive battles. That concludes 1354.

I'm going to try and do my report in one big or two total posts this turn.

Any thoughts on how to split it up?

Cecil XIX
01-20-2008, 21:17
In fact unless taking the save or posting orders the it's best to be in the Diet rather than the Orders thread. Discussing strategy is going to just make the reports spread out over pages.

While I would prefer to discuss strategy in the Diet and House threads, I don't think that's the correct interpretation of the Orders Thread. You're basically saing that we can't discuss orders (which is what strategy is) in the orders thread. The Orders thread seems a little schizophrenic since the name change, I would prefer if it's newer functions were transfered to the Diet thread and it returned to being the 'Chancellor and Govenor Reports' thread.

AussieGiant
01-20-2008, 21:21
While I would prefer to discuss strategy in the Diet and House threads, I don't think that's the correct interpretation of the Orders Thread. You're basically saing that we can't discuss orders (which is what strategy is) in the orders thread. The Orders thread seems a little schizophrenic since the name change, I would prefer if it's newer functions were transfered to the Diet thread and it returned to being the 'Chancellor and Govenor Reports' thread.

You're right cecil.

It does seem to be the place to discuss stuff. Let see what Econ says.

If it is reports only then we would go back to the Diet and House threads, which seem to need it right now.

-edit-

Taking a little look at 1356...the plague is abating. We have a plague death though. 1356 will be up tomorrow night for offensive or maybe Tuesday.

Stay tuned. :-)

Ramses II CP
01-20-2008, 21:45
Argh, the Danes didn't advance? If those two armies get together all I can do is retreat, which hardly seems in character.

:egypt:

Ramses II CP
01-20-2008, 21:54
Ahh, taking a look at the save I think the exposed militia spearmen are giving the AI pathing problems by being too close to the crossing. I'd wanted them due south of the forest (Directly 'below' Fritz). AFAIK the AI cannot attack if you're right next to the green arrow, which is a bit of a 'gamey' way to defend the island.

If it's already a done deal then :shrug:, but if that extra militia company could be slid back a step I'll wager on them crossing.

edit: Mm, while I'm here if you make any changes you could combine the tiny 6 man company of merc crossbows into the 84 man one too.

:egypt:

deguerra
01-20-2008, 22:58
Just as a heads up guys, I will be gone for about 3 weeks in a week. I am going houseboating from next monday til friday. I will be there for the weekend and am them going to visit family in Germany for 2 weeks. (Yes, I am copy+pasting this paragraph)

We are taking a while to get through turns so I probably won't miss too much. In the event that Bruges is sieged and I am on reserve duty, is there any way of not loosing to auto-calc?

cheers

OverKnight
01-20-2008, 23:27
Egad, Milan is turning into a meat grinder, the Stalingrad of Italy. We're coming out slightly better, but at a cost.

Those super stacks are jacking up the lethality of the game, because we have to rely more on the AI, as reinforcements, to actually have a chance in the open field.

Northnovas
01-20-2008, 23:31
Just as a heads up guys, I will be gone for about 3 weeks in a week. I am going houseboating from next monday til friday. I will be there for the weekend and am them going to visit family in Germany for 2 weeks. (Yes, I am copy+pasting this paragraph)

We are taking a while to get through turns so I probably won't miss too much. In the event that Bruges is sieged and I am on reserve duty, is there any way of not loosing to auto-calc? cheers

I think that situation would qualifying you to name a designated hitter to to fight your battles till you return to active duty.

econ21
01-20-2008, 23:48
Goodness, this PBM is getting lethal. GH that may be the biggest battle we have ever fought (and probably the bloodiest for us) - I am looking forward to the battle report. Warmaster Horus - have a think about your next avatar. IIRC, there are a few other young Steffens on the way.

Cecil and AG - personally, I would like us to continue to use the Orders thread to discuss orders. The more decentralised system post-cataclysm means that there is inevitably some to and fro. They are largely bilateral exchanges between Chancellor and individual generals, so they don't fit so well in the Diet (most Electors are not involved in the discussion) or the House threads (Chancellor is not in each House). There's no particular reason to worry about the Orders thread getting long - we can just lock it at 20 pages and start a new one. The mix of IC and OOC in the Orders thread is uneasy - it would be good to switch to IC completely, but let's see how it develops.

deguerra - being besieged is the one time where the autocalc is absolutely unforgiving. I am trying to avoid any future proxying, as coping with lack of player availability is adding some welcome tension to the game. :sweatdrop: I think the best solution would be to give Count Bohmen a well earned rest and coordinate with Chancellor so that he is pulled him back to the inner Reich for the time you are away. I've floated the idea of generals getting some leave before and it would seem that when players take their own leave, it would be best for their avatars to do likewise. Otherwise, if Count Bohmen stays in Bruges, you would be just taking your chances that either the autocalc would be lucky or that we could relieve him in time.


We have a plague death though

One of us or just an agent?

deguerra
01-20-2008, 23:58
Fair enough. Is von Luxembourg still heading North. If that were the case he could take my place there. What is the current situation regarding French armies in the North?

GeneralHankerchief
01-21-2008, 00:17
If the "player leave" idea does turn into a reality, I request that, when moving avatars away from and back to the front, we use the console to grant them more movement points so that they can get to where they need to be instantly.

- First of all, from an IC perspective, these characters' movements are not military; they're just guys going home. I liken it to how all of the characters leave for the Diet sessions with little effect in the actual game.

- Secondly, it's not fair to the players if too much time is taken up. If you're on the Austrian Front and want to retreat to a safe place, say, Nuremburg, it'll take quite a few turns to get there and back. If you're only going on a short leave, by the time you're ready to get back to the game your character might just be getting to his safehouse and it will take an inordinate amount of time to bring him back.

Battle report coming along nicely. Of course, I haven't actually refought it yet... :sweatdrop:

Northnovas
01-21-2008, 01:40
If the "player leave" idea does turn into a reality, I request that, when moving avatars away from and back to the front, we use the console to grant them more movement points so that they can get to where they need to be instantly.

I would be in favour of that and would make sense. Just recently covering for AG and my avatar heads for Ragusa by the time AG returns I was no longer needed and in limbo a few game turns to get back to where I wanted.

I see no harm if we use this practice of reserve duty to the interior if it is for a length of time and have the Chancellor make that console movements.

Good idea:idea2:

econ21
01-21-2008, 02:06
I am reluctant to have us start fiddling with the console (at least where it benefits us rather than the AI). It opens a can of worms that is much easier to keep shut if we stick to what is possible in game without cheats.

Going to an interior city is one way of keeping an avatar on reserve duty safe. Right now, we are unusual in that we don't have many (any?) safe interior cities.

Another way would be to make them the second general in a stack IF the commanding general could keep them safe rather than use them as shock troops (currently our "tribunes" seem to be falling like flies).

With deguera's case, I am sure the Chancellor and he can work things out given appropriate coordination. For example, moving to Antwerp would remove Bohmen from some danger, as would making him second general in Luxemburg's force. I agree going all the way to Nuremburg would be excessive.

deguerra
01-21-2008, 02:41
I take it you are heading North then. :D I am quite fine with the second solution. IC, I'd prefer it if Ludwig remained in Bruges, and giving the already accomplished Welf some more fighting experience would seem like a passable IC notion.

AussieGiant
01-21-2008, 08:54
Hi All,

The plague death was a character but in a place where we will see no difference at all :whip:

As the fronts work themselves out I can certainly organise a second level Duchy based holding area. Not too far from the front and far enough away from the action to be workable without using the console.

Plus, stacking avatars allows for the person to remain on the front and have the other active avatar do the fighting...of course we can manage the situation so that active avatar gets the experience.

Milan IS Stalingrad, I've never seen anything like that and we are only about half way through, there are the two French stacks next.

deguerra,

We are going to have to work out something fast. You're isolated and that is the problem.

Zim
01-21-2008, 09:00
Just want everyone to know I'm keeping track of things. It's just with the whole plethora of choices (stay on bridge or...stay on bridge) I've been a bit sparse with the orders. :sweatdrop:

GeneralHankerchief
01-21-2008, 16:38
TinCow, you put the wrong guy in the Mausoleum. We lost Karolinger (WH), not Erlach (Stuperman).

FactionHeir
01-21-2008, 16:52
:laugh4:
So do we have to unearth Stuperman from the Mausoleum now?

GeneralHankerchief
01-21-2008, 17:19
Egad, Milan is turning into a meat grinder, the Stalingrad of Italy. We're coming out slightly better, but at a cost.


Milan IS Stalingrad, I've never seen anything like that and we are only about half way through, there are the two French stacks next.

The question is: Are we the Russians... or the Germans?

Ramses II CP
01-21-2008, 17:46
That question only matters if we make it out of Stalingrad. 'Dead' isn't a nationality. :skull:

:egypt:

AussieGiant
01-21-2008, 17:46
The question is: Are we the Russians... or the Germans?

That remain to be seen.

It's only about a few hours before I post up 1356.

It was a season of sieges by the way. The two French stacks went and besieged more of our cities and a few other countries did also. There were four sieges started this turn.


Ramses, I'll move that little regiment to allow the Danes to come over...god knows why, but you're correct...I don't want to take advantage of any bugs.

TinCow
01-21-2008, 17:48
Oops. Fixing my error now. Please pretend like it didn't happen for IC purposes.

AussieGiant
01-21-2008, 17:59
Oops. Fixing my error now. Please pretend like it didn't happen for IC purposes.

That's what I was going to say. The save will be up and the first part of the Chancellors report tonight.

Then we can all have a nice old chin wag about it.

AussieGiant
01-21-2008, 20:24
Ok chaps the start of 1356 is up.

Take a look. I'll be watching the Giants game tonight on replay so I will be back and forth all evening to check your responses.

Please keep in mind I do not know the score so don't give it away until I let you know I've finished watching it.

Please, pretty please.

GeneralHankerchief
01-21-2008, 20:25
It was a good game AG, that's all I'll say.

Ramses II CP
01-21-2008, 22:06
You mean you'll slide him back and set the ambush for 1356? Unfortunately the two Danish armies have now come together, and I have serious doubts about my ability to hold them both with a bunch of militia spearmen. Actually I have no idea what happens after an ambush on the AI and the approach of a second army. Is it a re-ambush, or (As with the AI's ambushes) is my army exposed and subject to regular attack and retreat rules?

Anyway, I don't see Fritz sneaking into an ambush spot and retreating from it either, so, I guess that'll be the plan. Wish me luck. :laugh4:

I'll post a ss and more formal orders in the O&R thread.

:egypt:

deguerra
01-21-2008, 22:58
deguerra,

We are going to have to work out something fast. You're isolated and that is the problem.

I'm still a bit unsure where Welf von Luxembourg currently is, and what his plan are. If he is indeed heading North, just stack me and the Bruges militia (apparently we are now a Household Army) with him. If nobody is heading North, then perhaps just put me into Antwerp for the moment, and hope that I'm back in time to relieve any potential sieges on Bruges.

AussieGiant
01-21-2008, 23:15
WE WON!!!

OMG!!!!

I can't believe this team is going to the Superbowl!!!

Ramses I see what you mean.

deguerra,

Welf is near Staufen and no where near you.

deguerra
01-21-2008, 23:35
Bloody Young-uns :D

Right. As I said, just put me into Antwerp for now then. Keep the Bruges garrison in Bruges.

Northnovas
01-21-2008, 23:47
TinCow, you put the wrong guy in the Mausoleum. We lost Karolinger (WH), not Erlach (Stuperman).

%@#$@! I made the mistake too. I always mixed those two up. Will ammend the post keep moving nothing to see here.:bobby:



WE WON!!!

OMG!!!!

I can't believe this team is going to the Superbowl!!!

I wasn't going to say anything till I had your confirmation. :balloon2:

econ21
01-22-2008, 00:03
Warmaster Horus and FLYdude - commiserations on your losses.

But do you believe in reincarnation? If so, we have two Steffen boys aged 15 about to come of age, plus a 14 year old Becker and some other chaps in the pipeline.

I'd prefer it if you took one of the youngsters on the family tree that are about to mature rather than a recruitable although the latter is possible if you want one for role-playing or other reasons.

GeneralHankerchief
01-22-2008, 01:20
Does anybody anticipate putting up a battle report within the next twenty-four hours?

I'd rather not put up a placeholder, but keeping the three parts together is even more important.

econ21
01-22-2008, 02:27
It's best to put up a placeholder - there isn't really a downside. Excellent job so far, BTW. :bow: And I know what you mean about no time to take screenshots - my first battle with the Mongols was like that. I think I only wrote one word of notes throughout the battle - "hell".

Cecil XIX
01-22-2008, 04:21
There is indeed a downside because if a person reads the thread when the placeholder is up the thread will still be marked as read when the actual battle is posted, or if another post has been made after the placeholder it clicking 'go to next unread post' will end up skipping the battle. Then you have to make an announcement in the OOC thread to make sure everybody knows.

StoneCold
01-22-2008, 04:27
Just making an OOC announcement in this thread with links to the report then. It will also be easier for us people with limited computer resources to view the reports post by post than for it to load up the entire page of the Battle Report thread.

OverKnight
01-22-2008, 05:36
If people don't want to load the entire battle thread, individual battle posts are linked in the history. You spend less time waiting for the pics to load.

Alternatively, writers, as a courtesy, could post links to their battle in the OOC thread once they're done, whether there was a placeholder or not.

Edit: These super stacks remind me of the Mongols, elite troops that don't break. Our approach has been similar as well, gang up on them or seek choke points.

FactionHeir
01-22-2008, 10:23
On reserve duty now. Should be able to check on the forum daily except for weekends however.

TinCow
01-22-2008, 13:11
Yikes. Between deaths and reserve players, we're actually getting a bit thin on the ground in KOTR.

Warmaster Horus
01-22-2008, 17:21
I'll be taking the next Steffen to come of age. I believe that's in 4-5 years...?

EDIT: of course, I should have read the thread first. Didn't see your post econ21, so, yeah, I'll take one of 'em.

AussieGiant
01-22-2008, 17:32
Yikes. Between deaths and reserve players, we're actually getting a bit thin on the ground in KOTR.


:furious3: :wall: :whip: :dizzy2: :idea2: :inquisitive: :laugh4: :2thumbsup:

That's the linear emotional path I follow each time I look at the screen.

AussieGiant
01-22-2008, 17:54
AND DAMN IT, I KNEW I HAD AN UNEASY FEELING ABOUT STACKS WITHOUT AVATARS!!

How do we know when an avatarless army stack is cured of the plague?

Anyone...? It just occured to me that we don't, and the only way to find out is to stick it in a city or castle or attach a avatar to it and see what happens.

:thumbsdown:

Ramses II CP
01-22-2008, 19:36
The announcements at the start of the turn regarding the plague tell you the names of infected captains, though I don't know the full mechanics of the matter.

:egypt:

AussieGiant
01-22-2008, 20:13
The announcements at the start of the turn regarding the plague tell you the names of infected captains, though I don't know the full mechanics of the matter.

:egypt:

Ok that's starting to make sense. I hope that works...

TinCow
01-22-2008, 22:59
Apologies for the late update on Lukas Godwinson. I hope the recent "new post" icon in the Mausoleum didn't panic anyone.

It is worth noting that of the 37 deaths recorded in the Mausoleum, only 12 have been from old age. KOTR is definitely far more lethal than WOTS ever was. WOTS only had 10 deaths total, including one agent, and only 7 of which were 'unusual.' Even though the two games went on for about the same number of turns, that 7 compares to 25 for KOTR.

Zim
01-23-2008, 00:30
Tincow, would you happen to know if we had more non natural deaths during the cataclysm or after? It seems like we're catching up in the immediate post-Cataclysm period. :sweatdrop:

TinCow
01-23-2008, 13:14
Tincow, would you happen to know if we had more non natural deaths during the cataclysm or after? It seems like we're catching up in the immediate post-Cataclysm period. :sweatdrop:

Deaths in the first phase of the cataclysm (1300-1320):
Arnold Scherer (never assigned) - In battle
Friedrich Scherer - In battle, but intentional
Siegfried von Kastilien - Scripted

Deaths in the second phase of the cataclysm (1320-1340)
Ansehelm von Kastilien - In battle, but intentional
Dietrich von Dassel - In battle
Hans - In battle
Jan von Hamburg - In battle
Jan von der Pfalz - In battle
Wolfgang Hummel - In battle

Deaths in the Post-Cataclysm phase (1340-Present)
Elberhard - In battle
Karl Zirn - Old Age
Lorenz Zirn - In battle
Dieter von Essen - In battle
Friedrich Karolinger - In battle
Lukas Godwinson - Plague

So, the first phase of the cataclysm did not have any involuntary deaths of a player's avatar, since both player controlled deaths were intentional by their owners. The second phase of the cataclysm had 5 involuntary deaths of a player, which is the same as the post-cataclysm period, if Karl Zirn is excluded. So, yes, this Chancellorship has been just as lethal as the Cataclysm itself. Given the nature of the spawned stacks and the lack of a "Hand of God" to spontaneously generate troops or teleport people out of danger, this is not surprising to me.

econ21
01-23-2008, 14:13
The difference, though, is that post-cataclysm we are being killed by the AI rather than by each other. :duel:

I think the AI is more lethal now partly because of the absence of the catalysm's safety nets. But also because in the catacylsm, we were almost forced to give ground. Now we are being more aggressive but paying a price.

Speaking of which, the AI is only one turn away from another top up of troops. And we are just one turn away from the next Diet - it seems to have crept up on us.

Northnovas
01-23-2008, 14:51
That did creep up! I thought we were just plodding along and now another Diet Session and election a turn away. Could be interesting considering some of the edicts proposed to capture settlements were not fulfilled.
I guess that shows our standing compared the past. We would be looking further beyond the newly conquered lands with new edicts to to expand for more territory.

GeneralHankerchief
01-23-2008, 14:54
Part III is up.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1811629&postcount=240

TinCow
01-23-2008, 14:55
I would encourage a bit more leniance on army generation next time it happens. We've been fighting tooth and nail to get back what we once had, but if you omit Prinz Dieter's conquests, which were mostly unopposed, we've re-conquered very, very little so far. After 60 years of retreat and defeat, a bit of forward movement would be welcome. The novelty of the triple gold armies is also starting to wear off.

OverKnight
01-23-2008, 15:58
Second!

GeneralHankerchief
01-23-2008, 21:17
Uh. Third.

gibsonsg91921
01-23-2008, 23:42
Fourth. I was afraid my inability to command would be exposed by a triple gold, but it's too late for that. It was exposed by a regular army.

AussieGiant
01-24-2008, 10:11
Declined with a comment.

If we don't replace the Triple Golds with Silvers and Bronze then watch...once they have been taken out we will expand rapidly.

econ21
01-24-2008, 12:32
Personally, I like the balance under AussieGiant's stint - it's been very challenging.

The reason for the difficulty may have been the plague rather than the AI stacks per se. The plague has slashed our trade income and so most areas have had to get by with limited reinforcements to armies that were already depleted by the cataclysm. If we get back to pre-cataclysm income levels, we will be able to pump out good units from our many Citadels and the AI will be much less frightening. That will be a bit of a shame, to be honest, as I think the balance is better when we are tightly constrained.

On the gold stacks, I only created one per faction - to represent elite formations to be feared. Silver or bronze buffs are needed though, to balance the good stats of our generals.

AussieGiant
01-24-2008, 16:37
Gentlemen,

Completely OOC; I was hard pressed organising everyone operationally, due to plague issues and that will continue...plus there was basically very limited amounts of cash.

I personally like it, but I believe good old Arnold is going to unfairly be labelled a Chancellor that did not achieve much in the global scheme of things...therefore expect some follow up from the old fellow. :2thumbsup:

FactionHeir
01-24-2008, 21:18
Personally, I like the balance under AussieGiant's stint - it's been very challenging.

The reason for the difficulty may have been the plague rather than the AI stacks per se. The plague has slashed our trade income and so most areas have had to get by with limited reinforcements to armies that were already depleted by the cataclysm. If we get back to pre-cataclysm income levels, we will be able to pump out good units from our many Citadels and the AI will be much less frightening. That will be a bit of a shame, to be honest, as I think the balance is better when we are tightly constrained.

On the gold stacks, I only created one per faction - to represent elite formations to be feared. Silver or bronze buffs are needed though, to balance the good stats of our generals.

As long as there aren't any ridiculous full lancer stacks or other full cavalry stacks, I'm happy.

GeneralHankerchief
01-24-2008, 22:31
Or horse archer stacks. :wall:

FactionHeir
01-24-2008, 22:36
I can imagine a full stack of vards being difficult, but HAs are very easily defeated by our crossbows, and the AI doesn't use them smartly at all (cantabrian in front of crossbows is basically asking to gt killed)

Warluster
01-24-2008, 22:58
I'm gonna be away fir at least 5 days, so don't worry if I don't return PM's.

AussieGiant
01-25-2008, 08:42
I will be advocating full balanced stacks of silver or bronze experience with armour and weapon upgrades.

They should be placed in the fog of war areas not right on the edge of our front lines, that will then let the AI handle them how they want.

Tonight is a surge night :2thumbsup:, it just sounds good somehow.

It's 08:40 GMT +1 as I write this on Friday morning. Offensive season and deployment will be compeleted this evening so get your battles in or orders to me by tonight around 20:00 GMT +1

We will be at the start of 1358 by the end of the weekend.

Ferret
01-25-2008, 18:34
right as soon as the Poles are broken on the walls of Magdeburg again I'm going to try and take Breslau if that is all right with the Chancellor, I realise now Dieter the Mean (how did that happen?) isn't going to be able to recruit more men before he is besieged again, time to get out of that wreched castle.

AussieGiant
01-25-2008, 19:59
right as soon as the Poles are broken on the walls of Magdeburg again I'm going to try and take Breslau if that is all right with the Chancellor, I realise now Dieter the Mean (how did that happen?) isn't going to be able to recruit more men before he is besieged again, time to get out of that wreched castle.


That's just about the best news I've heard in decades :laugh4:

You're next Chancellor will be thrilled.:yes:

AussieGiant
01-26-2008, 00:51
Right then...this weekend should be interesting.

TC, vpmd, Ramses, Elite Ferret and Dutch_guy are all up.

The only one I'm wondering about for OOC reasons is vpmd's battle.

Econ what do you think?

And TC, you've got one of the all time cracking battles I've fought in my entire life with that city rush.

In the end I had all 5 pavise Xbow's in the city square...it was like watching a mini gun in action....:beam:

econ21
01-26-2008, 01:03
The only one I'm wondering about for OOC reasons is vpmd's battle.

Econ what do you think?

vpmd has not visited the Org for a week, so I am not sure he will pass by in time to fight his battle. However, we probably should play by the rules and give him 48 hours before autoresolving it. It would be a good idea to PM him a wake up call (and the Magdeburg two as well).

AussieGiant
01-26-2008, 01:52
vpmd has not visited the Org for a week, so I am not sure he will pass by in time to fight his battle. However, we probably should play by the rules and give him 48 hours before autoresolving it. It would be a good idea to PM him a wake up call (and the Magdeburg two as well).

Forgot about the PM's.

Will send then all now

-edict-

Done.

Ramses II CP
01-26-2008, 02:35
Never mind my pm AG, I see the state of things now. Even if mine doesn't come up until Monday I can probably get it done that night.

:egypt:

AussieGiant
01-26-2008, 11:21
In my run through you only got the bronze army and in a full ambush.

I just charged them outright and worked things out from there :beam:

-edit-

battle report is finished for the end of the Daruzzo campaign.

deguerra
01-27-2008, 06:01
Hey guys,

am gone for three weeks as of now, just to let everyone know again (yes, I know, its been posted three times already). Best PBM Ive ever played ~;) (possibly also the only), great job to all those who help running it and hopefully I can jump right back in when I return.

deguerra

AussieGiant
01-27-2008, 09:17
Hey guys,

am gone for three weeks as of now, just to let everyone know again (yes, I know, its been posted three times already). Best PBM Ive ever played ~;) (possibly also the only), great job to all those who help running it and hopefully I can jump right back in when I return.

deguerra

Have a great time deguerra and you can jump right back in when you get back. Your on reserve duty in reality. By the time you get back the next chancellor will be just over half way through maybe.

AussieGiant
01-27-2008, 09:51
vpmd is in deep trouble. There is no way he can win that fight.

:no:

-edit-

I'm going to PM vpmd again. He has until tonight to get back to me...I don't feel really good about this actually.

TinCow
01-27-2008, 16:40
Don't feel too bad about moving on without him. I really see no possible way for him to survive, so an autoresolve death isn't really any worse. I guess this one will officially make the Arnold Chancellorship the most lethal period in KOTR history, including the Cataclsym.

AussieGiant
01-27-2008, 17:23
Don't feel too bad about moving on without him. I really see no possible way for him to survive, so an autoresolve death isn't really any worse. I guess this one will officially make the Arnold Chancellorship the most lethal period in KOTR history, including the Cataclsym.

I'm tempted to do an auto resolve as there is no way out of that assault.

Then at least Ramses can get onto his tonight.

It does seem as if the Dread Lord has lead to some unexpected results...although I can't say I'm responsible for any of them when I think about it.

Pretty brutal really...and I kind of like it, as it is realistic.

I was really concerned at the beginning that everyone would meta game like AD&D or something. Now it feels a little too dangerous...

It still feels really quiet though....

Ramses II CP
01-27-2008, 17:24
It's always possible to short circuit the AI in a siege, it just requires some unseemly manipulation. I haven't actually tried this battle, but if you don't want to be abusive toward the AI I'd recommend opening the gates and letting them try to come in while sending the general around to flank.

...but like I said, I haven't tried it. :laugh4: :skull:

:egypt:

AussieGiant
01-27-2008, 17:25
It's always possible to short circuit the AI in a siege, it just requires some unseemly manipulation. I haven't actually tried this battle, but if you don't want to be abusive toward the AI I'd recommend opening the gates and letting them try to come in while sending the general around to flank.

...but like I said, I haven't tried it. :laugh4: :skull:

:egypt:

No that's certainly not on the cards. vpmd will have to find another avatar.

Ramses can you fight tonight?

Ramses II CP
01-27-2008, 17:35
No football today, I can fight more or less anytime.

:egypt:

AussieGiant
01-27-2008, 17:39
No football today, I can fight more or less anytime.

:egypt:

Right then get your chin strap and shoulder pads on, the saves coming your way very soon.

Cheers
AG

Ramses II CP
01-27-2008, 19:38
I was able to hold the city (Genoa) because of the AI's problem with huge walls. Bascially I just let the smallest company of town militia sally out and then rout to block the gates, and then all of the French infantry lined up to climb the siege tower. Most of the first unit (Sergeant Spearmen in my case) made it onto the walls to fight, and I had to destroy them at the cost of almost all my militia spearmen, but after that a tiny trickle of crossbowmen came up and my town militia fought them for the rest of the time limit. Hans von Bavaria exhausted his guardsmen charging into the static French infantry formation, doing them considerable harm. Unfortunately I had only about 1 company of spear militia and one and a half of town militia remaining at the end while they had all their cavalry and around half their foot, so it wouldn't work again, but it was a victory.

I suffered very, very bad lag during the last part of this siege. I suspect that's got something to do either with the orders the AI is trying to issue or the usual building bug. It took about an hour to plod through the last third of the hourglass while I sat there looking at jerky raindrops. Not fun.

:egypt:

AussieGiant
01-27-2008, 19:39
Ok then vpmd.

Sorry there fella but I'm going to take the save...auto resolve and then say something nice about you in the Diet thread. :shame:

AussieGiant
01-27-2008, 19:41
Hi Ramses,

I fought it as well and got about the same result.

I didn't save it though.

I'm going through with the decision anyway. Get ready in 10 minutes.

Ramses II CP
01-27-2008, 20:40
Oh, by the way ransom was accepted. 5400 florins or so. Don't say I never gave you anything. :laugh4:

:egypt:

AussieGiant
01-27-2008, 21:57
Oh, by the way ransom was accepted. 5400 florins or so. Don't say I never gave you anything. :laugh4:

:egypt:


Love your work Ramses!!! That's great news.

-edit-

Elite Ferret you're up now fella. It will be a hell of a defense if you can pull it off.

AussieGiant
01-28-2008, 11:25
Bump.

Elite Ferret...you need to fight this battle mate. Auto resolve will see Franconia drop the ball dramatically and you don't want that to happen I assume.

:sweatdrop:

Zim
01-28-2008, 11:44
EF's internet has been a bit off and on lately, so it might take him a bit to be able to fight the battle. Hopefully not too long...:sweatdrop:

econ21
01-28-2008, 12:49
I haven't checked the save, but presumably Dutch_guy would be a possible alternative general to fight the battle - Tancred is in Magdeburg too?If so, it might be wise to PM him too.

AussieGiant
01-28-2008, 12:57
Both are there.

I will PM DG also.

-edit-

Dutch_guy has been PM'd also.

Ferret
01-28-2008, 20:24
well the battle is fought but I can't seem to upload the save. It is in RAR form and has the right name but whenever I try to upload it it says underneath 'please choose an exisitng file to upload' instead of the usual 'upload successful'.

FactionHeir
01-28-2008, 20:38
Use mizus then.

GeneralHankerchief
01-28-2008, 22:36
.Org uploader is working again.

AussieGiant
01-29-2008, 09:56
This is pretty funny now.

EF has the save, the loader is working, but his internet is probably down now.

I'd really like to get 1358 up tonight.

EF if your out there get back to me fella!!

econ21
01-29-2008, 10:08
The Org uploader seems to be not working again - best to use the mizus one until it is. I arranged with EF for him to e-mail me the save. Here it is:

http://www.mizus.com/files/pbm/kotr1358.rar

AussieGiant
01-29-2008, 10:19
The Org uploader seems to be not working again - best to use the mizus one until it is. I arranged with EF for him to e-mail me the save. Here it is:

http://www.mizus.com/files/pbm/kotr1358.rar

Love your work Econ!

I'll be on it tonight around 19:30 GMT +1

Ferret
01-29-2008, 18:09
yeah sorry, I should have said that Econ had the save before I left but I was in a rush, busy day yesterday.

AussieGiant
01-29-2008, 21:41
1356 is now finished.

Moving on to 1358.

TinCow
01-30-2008, 16:13
I will be on reserve duty from Sunday, February 3rd to Thursday, February 7th due to a short vacation. I will have internet access during that time and will be on the forums, but I will not be able to fight battles. I have updated the Roster to show this.

AussieGiant
01-30-2008, 16:55
I will be on reserve duty from Sunday, February 3rd to Thursday, February 7th due to a short vacation. I will have internet access during that time and will be on the forums, but I will not be able to fight battles. I have updated the Roster to show this.

:wall:

Stuperman you better be around buddy. :beam:

_Tristan_
01-30-2008, 19:51
I am open to suggestions on how to deal with the all-cav French stack besieging Dijon...

Ramses II CP
01-30-2008, 21:00
Bog them down with spearmen and then hit them with heavy infantry. Whatever you do don't let them withdraw after they've engaged. Also your general can often draw a large crowd of them into chasing him around aimlessly while the rest of your army chews up whatever isn't following you.

If you don't have enough spearmen, use lines of archers or crossbowmen stretched as wide as possible with skirmish on. Turn off fire at will and don't let them shoot as the cavalry approach, because while they're in the firing animation they won't retreat. When the charge hits they'll skirmish away, as best they can, blunting the charge and allowing your infantry to close in. As before do not let them withdraw for a second charge, even if it means clicking your men to walk through them when they attempt to withdraw.

Once you get past the charge you should be okay.

The battle would be easier (IMHO) if you could have Ruppel sally out of Dijon, because you have the walls to fall back into and the typical passive AI siege behavior to manipulate, just make sure you don't enter the field directly behind them or get caught with men trying to rout to town square through the middle of their formation.

If Ruppel sallies don't exit the battle before it's over unless his men are all back inside.

:egypt:

TinCow
01-30-2008, 21:13
:wall:

Stuperman you better be around buddy. :beam:

I doubt it will be much of a problem. From past indications, the 1358 turn will take until Friday to complete. That will then give us the usual 3 days of Diet followed by 1 day of voting. That takes us through next Tuesday before 1360 starts. I will be back home on Thursday evening which should be at the tail end of the 48 hour period should Lothar really be needed to fight a battle. Even that I think is doubtful, though, because his army is not capable of facing down a triple gold stack as it is. Unless reinforcements materialize from nowhere or Milan is assaulted in 1360 (which I think is very unlikely since it's not currently beseiged) I doubt Lothar will even have a battle to fight until 1362 at the earliest, by which time I will have been home for a long time.

FactionHeir
01-30-2008, 22:05
Note that if you attack the French stack, make sure you don't get Ruppel as reinforcements. Otherwise losing means we lose Dijon as well.

econ21
01-30-2008, 22:28
I am open to suggestions on how to deal with the all-cav French stack besieging Dijon...

Fighting them in open battle with the SHA will be a challenge. IIRC, the formation lacks heavy cavalry or decent spears in any number. You may pull it off with some finesse, but it will be interesting to say the least.

If you set up the battle so that Ruppel sallies and SHA reinforces, the passive sally AI will let the SHA's many crossbows go to town. I think the AI will only send a few lancer regiments at you at a time, so you should be able to shoot them down and drive off the survivors. At least, that's what seemed to happen when I relieved Aleppo (although I was not against an all cav army):

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1735162&postcount=176

Normally, exploiting the AI would be frowned upon but given the composition of the AI stack and how long FH has been entombed in Dijon, I don't think anyone would shout too loudly if you set it up as a sally.

TinCow
01-30-2008, 22:58
Go ahead and exploit the passive AI if you can. That stack was originally designed to be a 'companion' stack to a normal army to specifically prevent FH from defeating an army that I did not want him to defeat, but that I feared he would because of his skill with cavalry. I did a similar thing with an all-cavalry army in Outremer that OverKnight took apart over the course of a couple battles. It is an unrealistic force that has outlived its original purpose, is absurd in the current situation, and was never generated by the AI to begin with. It was created as an 'exploit' to defeat the players, so I see no problems with the players using their own exploit to defeat it.

OverKnight
01-31-2008, 03:17
Yeah, I remember that, it was my valiant "keep running until I find a hill, fight a bit, and then keep running until I find another hill" strategy. :2thumbsup:

Good job on the French econ21. I can't wait to see the battle report on that one. Never underestimate a scorned husband with a chip on his shoulder. :laugh4:

gibsonsg91921
01-31-2008, 03:22
just so we all know, me and ramses nominated lothar steffen as best kotr character

AussieGiant
01-31-2008, 08:51
Bloody hell Econ, you took the bull by the horns there. :yes:

That move took me completely by surprise.

AussieGiant
01-31-2008, 08:55
just so we all know, me and ramses nominated lothar steffen as best kotr character

I agree. TC's done a hell of a job with him. To me he's been a catalyst for many things both dubious and honourable. His reasoning has been complex and believable.

I personally like his stance towards supporting the two separate rebellions in Swabia. A few posts in the Diet have been great to re-read.

I also liked the fight in the Tavern.

FactionHeir
01-31-2008, 15:38
Thanks for all those nominations at the HoF :bow:

I should hopefully be getting my laptop back today if all goes well (meaning the delivery person doesn't ring the bell and disappear because no-one answers but instead drops it off at the porter) so should have it all up and running by tomorow as I have a few meetings tonight.

AussieGiant
01-31-2008, 17:45
What is the HoF?

TinCow
01-31-2008, 17:49
What is the HoF?

http://media.canada.com/8c8b3290-2b08-4dc6-8e3e-2cc645fdfe05/070504_hoff.jpg

OverKnight
01-31-2008, 18:00
Ah, geez TC I think you just tanked your shot at "Most Helpful Member".

AG, check out the HoF or Hall of Fame announcement at the top of the Forum. Follow it to the thread, it should explain everything.

Edit: Think of it as the Oscars for the Org.

AussieGiant
01-31-2008, 18:11
I think I was just part of a whole lot of people laughing at their computers. :beam:

Well done TC. LOL!!

AussieGiant
01-31-2008, 18:33
Thanks TC for the nominations by the way.

FactionHeir
01-31-2008, 18:43
Ah, geez TC I think you just tanked your shot at "Most Helpful Member".


Well, not for the current ones as those are for 2007 (01.01.2007-31.12.2007) only. Maybe for the 2008 ones tho :grin:

econ21
01-31-2008, 19:40
The battle report for the Staufen fight is up.

Ferret
01-31-2008, 20:03
Nice report Econ! I'm starting to like this Welf fellow and he's a fine general already.

deguerra
02-01-2008, 04:36
Firstly because I would hate to give up Bruges, and also because I hate to leave all of Swabia as econs and tristans responsibility (not that i dont trust them with it, it just seems unfair), would it be possible to relieve Bruges with whatever units I have in Antwerp within in the next 48 hours? Let me know.

econ21
02-01-2008, 08:44
...would it be possible to relieve Bruges with whatever units I have in Antwerp within in the next 48 hours? Let me know.

Are you in a position to fight the battle? If so, I don't think there would be a problem with your picking up the save.

Warluster
02-01-2008, 11:42
I'm back.

I nominated AG in HoF and would probably mention a few others (Probably some rebels from the Civil War I have in mind) and some people already are nominated two times. Anyway; I certianly think AG deserves the nomination, Duke Arnold is a great character. (As I said in the HoF thread, his biography in the GuildWiki explains alot.) Good luck to all other nominees.

AussieGiant
02-01-2008, 13:15
Thanks Warluster. I appreciate that.

I have to have a think about everyone over the last year and get my own nomination up.

That's nearly impossible to do...but I have to try.

I'm trying to find the GuildWiki link with no success. Can you link me up?

Northnovas
02-01-2008, 16:49
Thanks Warluster. I appreciate that.

I have to have a think about everyone over the last year and get my own nomination up.

That's nearly impossible to do...but I have to try.

I'm trying to find the GuildWiki link with no success. Can you link me up?

AG on the top of the forum page navigate to site tools, drop down wiki, main page and then click contributions and will see the KoTR.

AussieGiant
02-01-2008, 17:19
AG on the top of the forum page navigate to site tools, drop down wiki, main page and then click contributions and will see the KoTR.

LMAO!!

I read the first set of characters and then I see;

Arnold

As if Arnold needs a #$%*@!ing biography!

Played by AussieGiant.


Who wrote that? :2thumbsup:

GeneralHankerchief
02-01-2008, 21:13
Tamur, IIRC.

AussieGiant
02-01-2008, 21:16
Tamur, IIRC.

I must send him a note of thanks.

OverKnight
02-02-2008, 13:33
It seems the pressures of office have caused Arnold to crack (more so at least) and he is now assigning nicknames to everyone like President Bush.

I'm just glad this madness only began at the end of the term. :laugh4:

Zim
02-02-2008, 13:39
So does being Mr. Perfect's best friend get me any fringe benefits? Like dates with girls he passes up? *

* If so, don't tell my wife. :clown:

AussieGiant
02-02-2008, 14:05
It seems the pressures of office have caused Arnold to crack (more so at least) and he is now assigning nicknames to everyone like President Bush.

I'm just glad this madness only began at the end of the term. :laugh4:

I'm starting to crack...can you tell :dizzy2:

Zim, you get what ever you want and the best friend. shhhhhh

Ramses II CP
02-03-2008, 17:12
I've been playing Broken Crescent lately, and I think it's worth considering for the inevitable successor to KotR. I know moving to a mod lessens the quantity of players and potentially makes for other problems, but BC is excellent, and there's great potential for taking on a difficult cause, for example in my first campaign the Kingdom of Jerusalem was wiped out utterly in short order. A rumor also has it that if Mecca and Medina are captured by non-muslims that a jihad is auto-declared or some such. No idea if that's true, but it sounds like fun.

:egypt:

gibsonsg91921
02-03-2008, 18:36
We could all be stereotypical ignorant white men! NICE!

A mod would also mean I couldn't join. The pro's just keep piling on.

I thought TinCow had some rules laid out for the successor, though.

Cecil XIX
02-03-2008, 18:42
Speaking of Mods, I'd love to play a KOTR-style game in Europa Barbarorum or Deus Lo Vault. Both mods focus on increased roleplaying traits while altering the campaign mechanics to create a slower, more methodical experience. Those are the two major issues with KOTOR, so I think they'd both be great.

TinCow
02-04-2008, 01:31
I think econ21 and I both agree that a mod is the best way to go for the next game, simply because they offer a much greater deal of difficulty and many have interesting features that would aid roleplaying and such. WOTS was played with a mod (RTR) and it benefitted greatly from it. The mod I prefer so far is Stainless Steel, but I haven't tried Broken Crescent yet. Regardless, it should be a group decision when the time comes.

Ramses II CP
02-04-2008, 01:49
FYI one of the benefits of BC is that it's compatible across vanilla 1.3 and Kingdoms. The last time I checked the latest version of SS required Kingdoms, though that was some time ago.

:egypt:

TinCow
02-04-2008, 02:24
Yes, SS 5.1 requires Kingdoms, but SS 4.1 is for regular M2TW and is still a vast improvement over vanilla. The trait and title system in particular is incredible. I've been playing SS 4.1 with an AI mod on top of it and it is like playing a different game.

Zim
02-04-2008, 02:57
I think I'd have to vote for BC if we're going to play a mod, but I imaginethat deision is far in the future anyway.


I think econ21 and I both agree that a mod is the best way to go for the next game, simply because they offer a much greater deal of difficulty and many have interesting features that would aid roleplaying and such. WOTS was played with a mod (RTR) and it benefitted greatly from it. The mod I prefer so far is Stainless Steel, but I haven't tried Broken Crescent yet. Regardless, it should be a group decision when the time comes.

Cecil XIX
02-04-2008, 04:36
Not to disparage BC, but I can't imagine playing M2:TW without Europe.

Ramses II CP
02-04-2008, 07:24
I felt much the same, but don't knock it until you've tried it. The variety of forces and territories is actually substantially greater. Expansion across religious boundries is naturally capped by the need to convert a populace, slowly, before local fortresses can become useful for training troops. I question some of their balancing decisions, but that might be because I still don't have the full picture as I've only really contacted the far easten end of things.

Although it's still the MTW2 AI, I've noticed a lot less outright stupidity. Cities at the front have a garrison, and the AI will recruit and use spies and assassins in some quantity.

I haven't tried SS, for obvious reasons. LTC was good, for what it did, but they were the same old units that we all know just how to use to whip the AI for heroic victory after heroic victory. I gave PDR a brief try awhile ago, but experienced a repeated crashing bug and uninstalled it and now it's in Kingdoms only versions too, I think. As far as I could tell PDR was the same old units as well, but I didn't get far with it.

DLV is also the same units as far as I know, but I haven't installed it. I'm up for anything personally, but BC is definitely the most complete mod I've played so far, and it hasn't crashed a single time yet. That scores high on my enjoyment meter for stability alone.

:egypt:

Zim
02-04-2008, 08:14
I agree with Ramses about BC's feeling complete despite the fact that they're planning on adding a ton more features and maybe a few factions. The fact their boards (on that other TW site :no: *) are extremely active (particularly in comparison to those for other MTW2 mods) attest to the mod's quality. Ramses is also right about unit variety being more diverse than any of the other mods I've played (although it's been a while since I've tried Stainless Steel, so they might have changed things up more).

I guess I might be a bit unusual in actually having started to find a change in scenery away from Europe as refreshing after 3 TW games and endless mods I've played. :sweatdrop:

Anyway, I'm sure everyone will agree on something by the time this really comes up. We might even have a few more mods to choose from. :yes:


*:clown:

AussieGiant
02-04-2008, 15:59
ok gents...my New York Football Giants just did the impossible and I'm still in shock.....OMG we have won the Superbowl against a team that is arguably the best ever.

So with that being said 1358 will end and we are up for another Diet session.

It will be up in about 30 minutes from now.

-edit-

Ramses your save 1358-12 is before the battle not afterwards. Can you please check and repost the save?

Ramses II CP
02-04-2008, 16:32
Yer pm box is full AG, so I'll reply here:

I'm on it now, but are you sure it isn't Stenkil attacking the captain led stack that was south of the ambush spot? He has to do that before he can advance, and I was careful to save it before that attack so you could auto-calc or retreat as you felt appropriate.

:egypt:

Ramses II CP
02-04-2008, 16:43
I see what you mean now. When I withdrew from the battle, Fritz didn't move on the strategy map, so he is being called as reinforcements for captain Eusebius. I don't have much experience with ambushes so I guess that's the way it's supposed to work? I pulled up the menu to save it so fast I didn't notice.

The question is, is it appropriate for me to take a second shot at Stenkil? I might be able to do a little more damage to him, but ultimately I still don't think I can take on his heavy cavalry and infantry with the men I have so I'll probably withdraw again.

This is getting humiliating for Fritz. :laugh4:

Anyway, give me a ruling and if I can fight Stenkil again I'll take a run at him (Probably in around 3 hours when the lil one naps would be the earliest chance).

:egypt:

AussieGiant
02-04-2008, 17:34
I'll clean my in box Ramses.

But otherwise have another go at him. Whittle him down a bit.

I'd like to have 1360 up tonight for the Diet start.

Ramses II CP
02-04-2008, 17:37
I'm going to have to make a trip to the doctor (Nothing serious), so it would be tonight before I could have another go at him. Just withdraw and move on, I'm much more interested in getting to the Diet session and not holding things up. Stenkil has no chance of taking Arhus with that army anyway.

:egypt:

AussieGiant
02-04-2008, 17:40
Where do you want me to move you to?

Hope the doctor thing is very minor.

econ21
02-04-2008, 17:55
Where do you want me to move you to?

When Ramses said "withdraw and move on", I think he just meant withdraw from the battle so that the game can move on to 1340. (As I understand it, we are in the defensive battles stage so we can't move per se.)


Hope the doctor thing is very minor.

Seconded. ~:grouphug:

Ramses II CP
02-04-2008, 17:56
Move me? Just hit withdraw from the battle screen and the game'll take care of it. No reason to treat it differently from any other withdrawal; it wouldn't really be fair to give me another chance to abuse that army's infantry anyway. When the next year starts I'll see where I am and go from there.

The doc thing is rather absurd, I got pink eye from my kidlet, which acted like some kind of gateway infection or something, because I then got strep and an ear infection. The antibiotics are knocking it out fine, but I still can't hear out of my right ear. The doc says I'll probably need steroids, but she wants to take a look at it first to make sure it didn't burst or something. Had a lot of ear infections as a kid, so my ears are already a little funny.

edit: Just to be completely, 100% clear, going to the doctor is just eating up my free time today, nothing to do with my larger availability. Unless the AI sneak attacks from my right I should be okay. ;)

:egypt:

_Tristan_
02-04-2008, 17:59
... so that the game can move on to 1340.

Econ, how come when you cite a date from ingame you're always 20 years late ?

I've noticed that you do that quite often... Nostalgia ? :yes:

AussieGiant
02-04-2008, 18:04
Sorry not thinking straight.

I think I'm still drink from last nights "blow out"!!

30 minute bell!!

AussieGiant
02-04-2008, 18:08
I got a wedding request for the Becker daughter. Not bad actually. 2 Chiv high loyalty and piety.

Do I take that...econ?

-edit-

I'm going to say no because we have two reserve duty avatars in Austria already.

econ21
02-04-2008, 23:14
Econ, how come when you cite a date from ingame you're always 20 years late ?

Senility. It's hard to keep up with you young 'uns. :embarassed: Being 20 years out of date OOC is not so much of a problem, it's when I start mixing up provinces in character, and calling Bavarians "Austrians", Maximillan "Manfred", Friedrich "Fredericus" etc that I risk getting into real trouble. :oops:


I'm going to say no because we have two reserve duty avatars in Austria already.

Good call. :bow:

Great job on the Chancellorship, BTW. :2thumbsup: :balloon2:

gibsonsg91921
02-05-2008, 00:56
Might be a smart idea for you young'uns to check on the stories thread.

Remember, no meta-gaming.

OverKnight
02-05-2008, 03:21
To answer your question in the Diet thread Ramses, new Diet threads are only started after 20 pages. We're only up to 13, by my count, so speechify away.

AussieGiant
02-05-2008, 14:21
Thanks for the congrats Econ. It was quite an experience.

And as I suspected...the general momentum has waned a lot in my opinion.

The Diet is like a morgue. Arnold's going to wait and see for the moment, but it is tempting to run again and see what can happen when I'm not trying to juggle disease and no money.

Warmaster Horus
02-05-2008, 19:02
My computer is almost dead. So I'm going to be unavailable for a few days, since my internet is going to be unavailable too. Since I don't have an avatar right now it's okay, but I thought I'd better tell you guys, in case an available avatar came up.

I'll be back ASAP.

Ramses II CP
02-05-2008, 19:37
I was just taking a look at the save to assess the general situation, and I noticed that, hilariously, the siege force at Dijon has built 21 rams and 7 siege towers. Now if only the AI would provide them with one single bloody company of infantry, they could really go crazy.

Things aren't all bad really. Have the AI armies been topped up yet, or is that waiting, or not going to happen? Just curious because it's difficult to formulate strategy, in particular in the Bavarian theatre, without know if there will be additional forces in play.

:egypt:

TinCow
02-05-2008, 20:13
FYI, the Library update will be delayed since I am on vacation. It will be done sometime on Friday or Saturday which is, unfortunately, after the Diet session is over. My apologies, but I simply don't have access to the game right now so I can't do it.

econ21
02-05-2008, 20:58
My computer is almost dead. So I'm going to be unavailable for a few days, since my internet is going to be unavailable too. Since I don't have an avatar right now it's okay, but I thought I'd better tell you guys, in case an available avatar came up.

From the Chancellor's final report, we do seem to have an avatar - two Steffen twins in fact. I'll pencil you in for one of them. Maybe FLYdude will take the other?


Have the AI armies been topped up yet, or is that waiting, or not going to happen? Just curious because it's difficult to formulate strategy, in particular in the Bavarian theatre, without know if there will be additional forces in play.

I'll try to do it tonight. There will be additional forces in play - I'll top up settlements and the odd understrength general, but I won't teleport stacks. I'll try to keep the changes in the fog of war, but sometimes that may not be possible (if we are toe to toe with the AI settlements, as in France).

FactionHeir
02-05-2008, 21:22
You could put the French new top ups at Toulouse or Zaragoza..

Ramses II CP
02-05-2008, 22:39
Mostly my concern was the two remaining Byzantine cities. If they're going to magic in more forces before we get to move then it represents a wholesale change to the apparent situation.

One more question, for Fritz, if I buy a merc ship can I use it as a shuttle to move troops two at a time to the mainland (i.e. Pick up two, take them near Arhus, drop off, go back for two more, etc.)? Or is that a bit cheesy? Mostly I want Fritz off that island (To avoid more withdrawal oddities) which I can do with just one ship, but it might be worthwhile to ferry off a few more companies just in case that captain Danish stack jumps past Stenkil's.

:egypt:

FactionHeir
02-05-2008, 23:03
Can't see anything wrong with that

StoneCold
02-05-2008, 23:18
I think that was the plan for the cyprus invasion OK and zim was envisioning. So I do not think there is nothing wrong with it too.

econ21
02-06-2008, 01:09
There's nothing wrong with shuttling a large army with a small fleet - look at D-Day and the subsequent build-up.

I have buffed up the AI a little - not a lot, as to be honest, it looks fairly competitive as it is. (Franconia looks over-run and Austria is threatened too.) If after 5 turns, we have made a lot of progress (as we may, now that the plague is over and money will be rolling in) then I will supply a bigger buff.

Despite my intention, I have made some changes within line of sight, as some of the distances of fogged out cities just seemed too far to have an impact. This applies particularly to Outremer and to the Poles. We will have first move this time, though, so hopefully it won't spark too much protest.

The two remaining Byzantine settlements in north Italy have been reinforced. Personally, I don't think it is that unrealistic - there's a sea route and we don't have a navy capable of interfering with it. I'd also cite the case of Hitler's desperate attempt to hold Tunisia after the US invasion of North Africa. What the Byzantines have received is nothing compared to what the Germans poured in. I suspect it will do the Byzantines as much good as it did the Germans, so it is nothing to get worked up about.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1360-1.zip

Ramses II CP
02-06-2008, 01:36
I wasn't trying to be snide with the magic comment, I'd love it if the AI reinforced their cities that were under threat, I just should've been patient and not started making plans before the save was fixed. :laugh4:

I'm rather worried about Hamburg. I firmly believe that even if the Danes bring both of those armies to Arhus I can hold them because the AI is so grossly incompetent at attacking huge walls, but if there's no one in Hamburg and they attack, it's gone and they're right in our backfield, holding Madgeburg constantly trapped and threatening Frankfurt and points south.

Is Dutch_guy able to fight? Any reason for him staying at Madgeburg?

:egypt:

econ21
02-06-2008, 01:54
Is Dutch_guy able to fight? Any reason for him staying at Madgeburg?

AFAIK, we have not heard from him in a while. He's a veteran Orgah and PBMer, so his absence does not spark alarm. But if you are elected, you might want to PM him to find out his situation. Heck, you could even PM before you are elected to try to secure his vote, killing two birds with one stone.