LATIN UNIT's voices

[Temistokles]

Hello everyone,
Does any of you know where I can find the exact words for any roman unit speech ??
For example I can understand: "Eos interficite !!" or "concursate !!" or "movete !!" and many other orders and nearly all the unit names, but I still miss many of them. Reading all sentences would be would be the best thing to understand what they actually said (of course for greek and celtic too).

I studied latin and ancient greek in secondary school, and I find that the proununciation of many of theese latin phrases is not so correct. I think that it should be "softer" (i.e. Interficite !! - I cannot check the exact meaning because I lent my dictionary to younger friend, but I can easily guess it - the centurion says interfiKite, and should say interfiCHite, not with hard C).
I am not sure, but I suppose that latin should sound as it is written like Italian language. It is different for auxiliary troops, for example equites germanorum sounds perfectly in my opinion. Also we should consider that in the vast empire official latin language was adapted to native language (i.e. gallic-roman) and that the official latina was spoken by native people.
I would like to try in recording all orders in Italic peninsula latin phonetic.

Sorry for my English
and thank you for any help

[Teleklos Archelaou]

"ch" for "c" instead of "k" is from a much later period in Roman/Italian history. Classical "c" is just like a "k" ("hard C") sound. There's not any middle ground on that - sorry.

[Temistokles]

Thanks Teleklos, searching some articles I discovered you are right about the K, so facere is fakere !!?

That sounds extremely unfamiliar to me ! In Italy there is not an official recognition of the classic proununciation, because of many differents theories about that I think, so exists the "school proununciation", which is the one with the soft C, based on the national Italian, that is teached (?taught? :sweatdrop: ) at school. During my five year classical studies I studied Livius, Tacitus and many others, listening, reading and translating their pieces with that proununciation !! :wall: I don't know about university courses, because I studied law, but here in Italy, when I use latin brocards to explain law concepts, we use C and not K i.e. mater semper certa est (pater numquam ~:)) or lex specialis derogat generali.

(About Italian C, I'm sure, it's c and not k, at least in my region, Tuscany, which was basically Etruria. The first modern Italian comes from the language of Tuscany's major cities, Florence, Siena, Pisa etc. the same language used by Dante Alighieri in his Divina Commedia in 1300 a.d. basically because that was the regional accent, among dozens, that extended to a larger area till the nearly entire italic peninsula.)

But do you know if there is a list of all the sentences used in EB ??
(What do you mean with middle ground ?)
Thank you

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yes there should be such a list, it should even be public: it's been asked for numerous times. I'll try if I can find it quickly for you, otherwise you could just fiddle a bit with the forum search engine.

[NEver]

For what it matters here in Australia we are also taught that c creates a k sound. It took our class quite a while to stop giggling at facit although I never found it too funny myself.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
My both Latin grammars from the dark ages of Turkey (1940s; not really dark ages in terms of publication :sweatdrop:) list it as K. In one of them is stated that no occurence of the soft C (ts, ç) was documented before the 5th C. AD.

Temistokles, you've got the standard Italian as mother tongue, being from Toscana, AFAIK. :clown:
.

[Obelics]

Hello everyone,
Does any of you know where I can find the exact words for any roman unit speech ??
For example I can understand: "Eos interficite !!" or "concursate !!" or "movete !!" and many other orders and nearly all the unit names, but I still miss many of them. Reading all sentences would be would be the best thing to understand what they actually said (of course for greek and celtic too).

I studied latin and ancient greek in secondary school, and I find that the proununciation of many of theese latin phrases is not so correct. I think that it should be "softer" (i.e. Interficite !! - I cannot check the exact meaning because I lent my dictionary to younger friend, but I can easily guess it - the centurion says interfiKite, and should say interfiCHite, not with hard C).
I am not sure, but I suppose that latin should sound as it is written like Italian language. It is different for auxiliary troops, for example equites germanorum sounds perfectly in my opinion. Also we should consider that in the vast empire official latin language was adapted to native language (i.e. gallic-roman) and that the official latina was spoken by native people.
I would like to try in recording all orders in Italic peninsula latin phonetic.

Sorry for my English
and thank you for any help

Hi Temistocle, in secondary school (liceo classico), the objective is not Filology, as you can imagine, but it is just to learn to render classic latin in modern italian. Another objective is to stady the classic texts.
You are not reqested to know to "speak" latin.
So the pronounce is the school pronounce, i.e the modern italian pronounce.
So for example ae ==> e (like in english "check"). we dont pronounce Ka-e-sare, but pronounce Cesare.

at University if one is interested can study filology and linguistic.

regarding the C/K matter here a very simple example for you:

take these 2 cases as a "premessa":

1) the word Caesar was exported among the germanic population in the early period

2) actually in german it is sayd Kaesar

now the regle want that in german the palatalized C like in cheese, become a sort of TZ. Like in the italian word "PALAZZO" (with a very strong Z)

So a word that was exported already palatalized, like "CELLA" (that of the monks) in german is pronced somethink like TZELLER (ive not my manuals under hand, so some german reader could excuse me if i mistake the writing of the word, anyway it is important the first letter)

So you can understand that if the word CAESAR was exported in german already palatalized, it should be pronunced in german like TZESAR.
But stated that it is pronunced KAESAR, that means ===> it was exported NOT PALATALIZED YET. So when it was exported it was pronounced KAESAR in the mothertongue.

Sorry for the english but i think between italians we can understand. (fra italiani ci si capisce). Saluti!

[Pezlu]

Mmmh... that's interesting. I didn't have many chances to find it out since I'm studying biology and I did a scientific high school (liceo scientifico, italiano anch'io :beam: )... so not much historical/literary background. Also, in high school I hated latin :laugh4:

Thanks!

[Obelics]

@sun shadow
fa piacere che ci siano altri italiani nel foro!

[konny]

1) the word Caesar was exported among the germanic population in the early period

2) actually in german it is sayd Kaesar

now the regle want that in german the palatalized C like in cheese, become a sort of TZ. Like in the italian word "PALAZZO" (with a very strong Z)

So a word that was exported already palatalized, like "CELLA" (that of the monks) in german is pronced somethink like TZELLER (ive not my manuals under hand, so some german reader could excuse me if i mistake the writing of the word, anyway it is important the first letter)

I think there are two German words that steem from cella:

- Zelle which is pronounced with TZ
- Keller which is pronounced with K

Caesar and Cicero are usually pronounced TZ in German, which seems to be wrong because of the word Kaiser that comes from Caesar, allready mention by you.

Both the Italian and the (Southern and Central) German language underwent a change (or in fact several changes) in pronounciation during the Middle Ages that changed most "C" sounds from "K" to "TZ" and a lot of "V" from "F" to "B"; for example the word "ab" is "off" in English. That's the reason why the modern German and Italian pronounciation is nearly identical.

So Dante Alighieri probably pronounced the same way than you and I do, but different to Caesar and Ciciero.

[Obelics]

I think there are two German words that steem from cella:

- Zelle which is pronounced with TZ
- Keller which is pronounced with K
There are 2 words for Cella in German? I dont know German language, and i dont have any german vocabulary, so you could specify the two different meanings or the two differen shades (i suppose you are german), are you sure they are sinonimous of the same word Cella (little ambient, the place where the monks sleep etc.)
From what you have wrote it seems you want to say they means the exact same thing, im talking about latin word Cella.



Caesar and Cicero are usually pronounced TZ in German, which seems to be wrong because of the word Kaiser that comes from Caesar, allready mention by you.
There are obvious reasons that the word referring to the historical personnage is pronounced different from the word Kaisar. The focous is on the word Kaesar, the words referring to litteraly and historical person can have a later pronounciation.



Both the Italian and the (Southern and Central) German language underwent a change (or in fact several changes) in pronounciation during the Middle Ages that changed most "C" sounds from "K" to "TZ" and a lot of "V" from "F" to "B"; for example the word "ab" is "off" in English. That's the reason why the modern German and Italian pronounciation is nearly identical.

That is the consonantic rotation (for German). For italian there is not such passage from K to TZ, there is a passage from T to TZ, for example the above mentioned word PALAZZO, from PALATIUM, and from K to C (palatalized)

This "palatalization" is much earlier than Middle Age.

Regarding my previous example, i write it more simple:

1) In german we have the word Kaesar
2) It was imported from Latin
3) If the latin word was pronounced Chhasare, then the German should have been Tzesar not Kaesar, Why?

Cause there is this tendence of german to pronounce with a TZ (zombie) the palatalized C (cheese)
But it is pronounced Kaesar so the conclusion is:

4) In latin (at the moment it was exported) it was pronounced Kaesar.

[Tellos Athenaios]

There are 2 words for Cella in German? I dont know German language, and i dont have any german vocabulary, so you could specify the two different meanings or the two differen shades (i suppose you are german), are you sure they are sinonimous of the same word Cella (little ambient, the place where the monks sleep etc.)
From what you have wrote it seems you want to say they means the exact same thing, im talking about latin word Cella.

Stem from Cella he said - that isn't the same as 'for'. ~;)

Anyway: cell (tzelle) and basement (keller). South Germany is also (in)famous for some Bierkeller.

[Obelics]

Anyway: cell (tzelle) and basement (keller)

so that take everythink to normal status. In fact Cella (english "cell", the place were the christian monks sleep in the night) was exported in german already palatalized (tah means that at the moment it was exported in german, it was already pronounced CHHELLA in Latin, and so TZELLE in german). It's a sort of counter-example.

For the opposite reason Caesar was pronounced Kaesar in classic latin, cause it was "exported in german in very ancient time. It should have been Tzesar if contemporary latin was Chheesar, but it cant be, cause the first attestation is german Kaesar.



South Germany is also (in)famous for some Bierkeller
Bierkeller.~:cheers:

[konny]

There are 2 words for Cella in German? I dont know German language, and i dont have any german vocabulary, so you could specify the two different meanings or the two differen shades (i suppose you are german), are you sure they are sinonimous of the same word Cella (little ambient, the place where the monks sleep etc.)
From what you have wrote it seems you want to say they means the exact same thing, im talking about latin word Cella.

No, they do not mean exactly the same (see Tellos post), but the meaning is so close that I suppose they both come from cella. "Zelle" usually describes some locked room. Keller is the same as the English cellar; I think here is the relation to cella even more visual. The room were monks sleep would be the "Klause" in German, BTW.


That is the consonantic rotation (for German). For italian there is not such passage from K to TZ, there is a passage from T to TZ, for example the above mentioned word PALAZZO, from PALATIUM, and from K to C (palatalized)

Yes, I forgott this one: the spelling for "t" followed by "i" has changed in German as well. My Italian is much limited, but I am certain that the rotation is said to have come from Italy during the Middle Ages. Of course, it can have occured in Italy much earlyer - but much likely after the term "Caesar" became "Kaesar/Kaiser".

[Obelics]

Well, loocked rom is the nearest meaning to the original Cella latin, that come pheraphs (but it is not sure) from celare=to hide.
So zelle is the one. It cold have been exported with the meaning related to the monks sleep place in the monasteries (i mean the little cubicula, the little room, ok the monks apartements). This is still (among a wild range of other meanings) one of the principal menings in italian.

being you german, i dont doubt that Klause is the actual word for the monk sleeping place. It is a different word anyway, and pheraphs a later one. I dont know german, but i think there dont need too much imagination to come to lat. "claudere" (to close), But i dont want to enter in a territory that is alien from me .
Regarding germ. Keller and engl. Cellar, they could come from latin cella too, but i have not an english or a german etymological dictionary. Anyway the direct link should be that between Cella and Zelle.



Yes, I forgott this one: the spelling for "t" followed by "i" has changed in German as well. My Italian is much limited, but I am certain that the rotation is said to have come from Italy during the Middle Ages. Of course, it can have occured in Italy much earlyer - but much likely after the term "Caesar" became "Kaesar/Kaiser".

Consonantic rotation cant be related to a phantomatic italian origin, it is a phenomenon related to common indoeuropean.
example latin "tres" -- english "three" pronounced as a fricative (almost an f).
It could have been produced by the different relations between indoeropean languages, and their respective substrati (indoeropean or not indeuropean, example: latin on etrurian)

[Maeran]

But do you know if there is a list of all the sentences used in EB ??


https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=75387

I've had it bookmarked since I first encountered it.