Elephants

[Hoplite7]

I loved elephants in RTW, and always hire them as mercs in M2TW. Obviously in this time period the use of elephants has seriously diminished, but is there word of playable elephants for the factions in the "third world"? (for lack of a better term) Such as in India or Afghanistan? Or did everyone stop using them by now? I don't think elephants would be very useful against muskets...

[Abokasee]

Well they could probably take 2-5 shots from a musket, maybe more, but there large targets for cannons, but India I think used them, although there effectiveness was limited (if they got to a formation of troops they would massacre it, but there large targets from cannons and muskets)

[Wolf_Kyolic]

CA is working on it. As soon as they find a way of fitting them in the ships, we will have elephants on the battlefield. Many uber elephant units that wipe armies off. All you need to do is bring two and click on enemy. You won! That is cool man! :idea2:

[Furious Mental]

Well there is a suit of armour for an elephant from 18th century India in a museum somewhere, so that would suggest that elephants were still used there. I think they were also used in south east Asia.

[rajpoot]

Elephants were used in warfare in India for a long long time, and I'm sure they'll be in the game at least for the Indian factions.
Afghans I believe never used elephants because fact that these beasts were found mainly in Southern and Eastern India.
Infact though it sounds insane and unpractical, yet, melee elephants with howdahs on their back were used too, even in the gunpowder age.

[Rhyfelwyr]

CA is working on it. As soon as they find a way of fitting them in the ships, we will have elephants on the battlefield. Many uber elephant units that wipe armies off. All you need to do is bring two and click on enemy. You won! That is cool man! :idea2:

Well if elephants are balanced they will be an interesting addition to the game. In EB IIRC elephants were nicely balanced, they could cause carnage in melee but peltasts would kill them off pretty quickly. In M2TW they are however insanely overpowered. In my current Byz campaign, I've got some merc elephants from Baghdad on their way to Mexico.:beam:

[Wolf_Kyolic]

Balanced elephants! That rox!!! ~:thumb:

[Rhyfelwyr]

w00t!!!11

[Matt_Lane]

The use of War Elephants decreased in the 18th century due to the advances in gunpowder weaponry although there were exceptions. The Mughals used war elephants with blades fixed to their tusks against the Persians in the Battle of Karnal in 1739. The Persian counter to this was to send camels carrying lit pots of oil charging into the ranks of elephants to panic them. When the camels were brought down the burning oil set the ground alight further hampering the Mughals.

Camals and elephants were also used as mobile artillery, sporting shaturnals, swivel mounted 1 to 2 pound artillery pieces. These could be used in a similar way to Horse Artillery in the support of light cavalry. At the Battle of Panipat of 1761 2,000 Afgan camal shaturnals decimated the Maratha's renowned light cavalry.

The main role for elephants in this period however was a beasts of burden carrying not just supplies but for hauling heavy guns. Guns drawn by bullocks would also have an elephant on hand to help push the pieces up steep inclines. The British had both camel and elephant batteries in India. Camels were used to pull up to 18lb field guns over sandy terrain whilst elephants were used to draw heavy field or siege artillery. Elephants were also used in mountain batteries where lighter guns were unlimbered and packed onto the animals then reassembled for battle.

Elephants were also seen as a status symbol and so it was common for an Indian King or Commander to lead the battle from the back of an Elephant, making himself a somewhat larger target for the enemy artillery.

[Hoplite7]

CA is working on it. As soon as they find a way of fitting them in the ships, we will have elephants on the battlefield. Many uber elephant units that wipe armies off. All you need to do is bring two and click on enemy. You won! That is cool man! :idea2:


Um, assuming you're complaining about game balance, elephants would be significantly weaker in this game because of gunfire... and elephants are SUPPOSED to be overpowering, they are... you know, elephants.


And is there a reason why you chose to put this thread in your signature? I'm not a newcomer to these series by any means, maybe relatively new to the forums however.

Reading your other posts I see your manners and maturity are sadly lacking... oh well.

[Barbarian]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Ww1-elephant.jpg/180px-Ww1-elephant.jpg

elephants were used to pull heavy equipment even during the world war 1. India used elephants for fighting purposes till the late 19th century

[Wolf_Kyolic]

and elephants are SUPPOSED to be overpowering, they are... you know, elephants.



They Roxors!!! :elephant:



I'm not a newcomer to these series by any means,


Oh you played Shogun?






Reading your other posts I see your manners and maturity are sadly lacking... oh well.

:oops: :sorry2: :shame: :sweatdrop: :thumbsdown:

[Husar]

Oh you played Shogun?
Yeah, anyone who didn't doeasn't really matter anyway, right? :dizzy2:

Concerning elephants, I guess india would use them and I don't think they have to fit into ships, think about it, they can swim themselves and be used as troop transports. ~D

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well if the MP community don't want elephants, I say we scrap them. Along with artillery, horse archers, more than 5 cavalry per stack or whatever else they don't like.

In fact, why don't CA just go all the way and scrap the campaign map, drop the naval battles, remove all interesting units, and release a nice Rock-Paper-Scissor game of Swordsmen-Spearmen-Horsemen.

That'll please the 0.00001% of TW players that make up the MP community.

[Hoplite7]

Wolf:

I might not have played Shogun, but I've played this since the first Medieval. Not that it even matters at all. The fact is, the game is supposed to imitate history to some extent. They've already neutered calvary with Kingdoms for "balance". Well, nobody wants balance. History wasn't balanced, and if elephants trample rows of elite infantry in history, than it should happen in the game. Would Carthage have been balanced in MP without elephants? Obviously not.

There's plenty of great balanced strategy games out there you can play, that are totally incorrect historically. Try Age of Empires or something.

[Wolf_Kyolic]

Well, nobody wants balance.

Yes!!!!! Balance is for freaks. It is better to get rid of it. CA thinks the same, anyway! Game gets much better without the balance.

Imagine that man... You bring some best looking units (brown cavs, moustache infantry, huge elephants...) and then select all and click on enemy. Someone wins in the end and imagine the fun you get out of it during the battle. Priceless!

Go CA go. Give us what we want.

It is deserved.

[Hoplite7]

At what point during this thread did you decide to use it as a place to dump your complaints about MP balance? I asked if elephants would be included. Somehow you found it appropriate to bash me and CA, on totally unrelated issues. Take your rambling elsewhere...

[rajpoot]

Lets lose the heat people, shall we? :sweatdrop: Please lets keep this friendly and peaceful.
So coming back to elephants, I really don't there is anyway to have a considerable number of them transported over large distances over water. I mean across rivers and fords its alright, but over the seas? :dizzy2:


think about it, they can swim themselves and be used as troop transports.

???You'll be transporting troops on elephants across the Arabian Sea to Africa??

[Hoplite7]

Lets lose the heat people, shall we? :sweatdrop: Please lets keep this friendly and peaceful.
That's hard to do when someone dedicates their signature to insulting me, for making a thread about elephants. :inquisitive: But OK.



So coming back to elephants, I really don't there is anyway to have a considerable number of them transported over large distances over water. I mean across rivers and fords its alright, but over the seas? :dizzy2:


Noah did it. :laugh4:


Seriously though, I don't think logistics have ever been an issue with TW. You can transport elephants on ships in all of the other games, after all. However, it would be strange to depict naval battles with elephants on them...

[Furious Mental]

I think we can have balance without having clone armies of boring identical units.

[Wolf_Kyolic]

I think we can have balance without having clone armies of boring identical units.

Nah. We do not need balance. It ruins the game.

[Husar]

???You'll be transporting troops on elephants across the Arabian Sea to Africa??
I meant to use them to invade America over the Atlantic. ~;)

I do think they could be transported over the seas though, I would bet some people transported them around for zoos or as expensive presents for some ruler.

[Barbarian]

I think we can have balance without having clone armies of boring identical units.

Probably, but always, when one unit is a bit better that the other, people yell "Imbalance!".

The only solution is have different unit stats and cost for campaign and and MP.

For MP: just make all armies similar, like in the chess. Only their looks will be different. Will be bloody fun.

[anders]

whats the matter wolf, you already have a perfectly well balanced tactical battle game in Shogun, in which you and the other MP veterans can test your supreme skills against one and other, and maybe even Medieval I is good enough for your refined taste, no need to complain over the new games not being perfect for your purpouse then?

btw, I thought the multiplayer community observed gentlemens agreements and refrained from using unbalanced units in a game-destroyig degree?


Im not crazy about elephants and other uber units myself, but since the SP game is trying to be some sort of historical recreation, units that were actually used in the period have a place in the game. and, if the premise is some kind of historical recreation, all units and factions cant or wont be balanced. the game is somewhere between simulation and abstract gameplay, and if some historical unit were cheaper, better, and far superior to a given other, the game should reflect that.

I think most of us whos played since STW or MTW agree those were better games gameplaywise, but thats no reason we and newcomers shouldnt be allowed to enjoy the new games, without being told were RTS-crazy 14 year olds who doesnt know what "armor-piercing" means.

Might I also suggest chess, if yoyre looking for a pure battle of the minds with fully balanced armies.

[rajpoot]

I do think they could be transported over the seas though, I would bet some people transported them around for zoos or as expensive presents for some ruler.

Trasporting one or two elephants is no big deal, but when it comes to transporting 20 or 30 elephants one has to rethink.
Anyway, I don't know what of the game, but I checked and rechecked but I didn't find anyplace where the elephants were transported overseas for wars using ships.
I mean however big a ship is how'll you manage a war elephants on board??!! You can't keep them all chained up all the time, and I really don't see the 18th centuary sailors taking them for walks across the deck :laugh4: .

[Furious Mental]

Well if Hannibal didn't put his war elephants on ships I don't see how they got to Europe.

[Fenix7]

Well if Hannibal didn't put his war elephants on ships I don't see how they got to Europe.

Through the Alps.

[Barbarian]

Through the Alps.

Also in this case they had to be transported on ships, even if only for a short journy to Iberian peninsula

[LadyAnn]

Hannibal didn't bring the war elephants (the particular ones that crossed the Alps) all the way from North Africa. At the time, Hannibal raised the army from Iberia and marched from there. Iberia at the beginning of the Second Punic War was still in the hand of Carthage.

Don't know from where the elephants were first brought into Iberia though...

Annie

[rajpoot]

Elephants were native beasts there, as were lions in Italy, long long time back.

[Intrepid Sidekick]

There wont be anything to stop people trying to ship their elephants across the oceans, except enemy shipping or a lack of funds.
Replacing dead elephants will of course not be simple. You will have to ship them from their point of origin.
The fact that they make big targets will probably put many folks off using them for assaults on massed troops armed with guns.
As said elsewhere by folks, they make good pack animals and are very useful for moving the big guns.

[pevergreen]

This game already shows discerning lack of camels.

I think Camel Oil Warriors should be confirmed as playable for everyone immediately.

[rajpoot]

There wont be anything to stop people trying to ship their elephants across the oceans, except enemy shipping or a lack of funds.

Even if one forgets historical accuracy for a moment, how at all will the elephants be depicted on board during naval battles?!

[Intrepid Sidekick]

They wont appear on decks in naval battles. They will be carried in transports.

[pevergreen]

How about the camels?
I believe their camely powers allow them the special "Shoot Hump" ability in sea battles. Its a one off cannon shot, it kills the unit though.

[Intrepid Sidekick]

Camels on ships..hmm now thats tricky. :dizzy2:
Pirate camels were a common problem in the 18th century.
Animating camels swinging from the rigging is very hard to do without reference, and modern camels tend not to be so adept, as their 18th century pirate cousins, so getting mocap is very hard :clown:

[pevergreen]

Well, Im sure I can get a few volunteers to show up at CA Australia in Camel costumes to help out. :laugh4:

[Captain Fishpants]

Well there is a suit of armour for an elephant from 18th century India in a museum somewhere, so that would suggest that elephants were still used there. I think they were also used in south east Asia.

The only elephant armour "in captivity" is to be found in the thoroughly wonderful Royal Armouries, Leeds (http://http://www.royalarmouries.org/extsite/view.jsp?sectionId=1950) in Yorkshire. The museum is well worth a visit for everything else too!

[rajpoot]

The only elephant armour "in captivity" is to be found in the thoroughly wonderful Royal Armouries, Leeds (http://http://www.royalarmouries.org/extsite/view.jsp?sectionId=1950) in Yorkshire. The museum is well worth a visit for everything else too!


We have complete suits of elephant armour, atleast a dozen howdahs and flails, all belonging to the elephants used by the local rulers of the city before 1947, and now in the museum in the city fort.............

[Barbarian]

They wont appear on decks in naval battles. They will be carried in transports.

That's quite logical: man, who lets elephants take a walk on the deck during naval battles, is not worthy of the title "captain" :laugh4:

[Matt_Lane]

The only elephant armour "in captivity" is to be found in the thoroughly wonderful Royal Armouries, Leeds (http://http://www.royalarmouries.org/extsite/view.jsp?sectionId=1950) in Yorkshire.

Bag yourself a bargain at http://www.pugsguns.com/displayItem.do?id=976 One lady owner, low millage (trunk road miles only), yours for a snip at $95,000 (sold as seen)


Elephants were native beasts there (Iberia), as were lions in Italy, long long time back.

Hanibals 38 Elephants were African Elephants, part of a corps of 200 brought across the Straits of Gibraltar by transports during the conquest of Iberia.

[TosaInu]

Bag yourself a bargain at http://www.pugsguns.com/displayItem.do?id=976 One lady owner, low millage (trunk road miles only), yours for a snip at $95,000 (sold as seen)


$95,000 isn't a snip without engine.

[KukriKhan]

Engines For Sale (http://www.zimbabwedemocracytrust.org/outcomes/details?contentId=2096) for a mere $2,000.

Shipping and handling extra, presumeably. (I wonder how many postage stamps it would take?)

[TosaInu]

:elephant:

[woad&fangs]

Camels on ships..hmm now thats tricky. :dizzy2:
Pirate camels were a common problem in the 18th century.
Animating camels swinging from the rigging is very hard to do without reference, and modern camels tend not to be so adept, as their 18th century pirate cousins, so getting mocap is very hard :clown:
That will be siggied.

Thanks for answering our questions by the way. It is very appreciated.

Edit: Nvm, not going to be siggied. It will go on my user page, however.

[Mailman653]

Pirate camels were a common problem in the 18th century.
Animating camels swinging from the rigging is very hard to do
Will they have a cutlass as well?:laugh4:

[Rhyfelwyr]

Can any of the 10 playable factions get these elephants? Do I sense an AOR system...

[LadyAnn]

:elephant:

No, TosaInu, it is Elephant Hunting Season!

Annie

[Wandarah]

I for one would like to see Rock-Elephants rocking out on the deck of ships. Wailing furiously on thier elephantine guitars, filling the sails with the tempest gale of thier African Styled Hendrix grooves.

But that will probably never happen, because CA don't care about rocking out.

So unrealistic!

[Furious Mental]

I reckon they had a few at the Maiden gig in Mumbai Friday.

[Jolt]

Elephants were native beasts there, as were lions in Italy, long long time back.


I think the possible introduction of elephants is merely to please fanboys.
Elephants simply had no chance whatsoever against any gunpowder unit of the 18th Century. One round of musket bullets from a 40 musketeers towards a compact mass of elephants would be enough to bring down plenty of them while they were still in the distance. While Indians had 1.70 m in size, Indian Elephants were about 3-4 tall, and very easy to hit at a distance where humans wouldn't be as much. I think the only good purpose dozens of elephants would have in that period against any nation who used muskets would be to waste their bullets and nothing more.

EDIT: Unless they make UBER-BULLET RESISTING ELEPHANTS OF DOOM which wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Furious Mental]

That would be why war elephants weren't used in Europe in the 18th century. There were still plenty of them in use in south-east Asia.

[Jolt]

Elephants were rarely used in Europe even when they could provoke a devastating effect, one time by Pyrrhus and another time by Hannibal. I don't recall any other usage of elephants militarily.

[Furious Mental]

Yeah I know that, I was being sarcastic, but that's not the point. The point is Europe and SE Asia are two different places and they waged war differently. Something that would have been regarded as ridiculous in one place would have been quite normal in the other, and vice versa. Elephants are a perfect example.

[Caius]

Hannibal didn't bring the war elephants (the particular ones that crossed the Alps) all the way from North Africa. At the time, Hannibal raised the army from Iberia and marched from there. Iberia at the beginning of the Second Punic War was still in the hand of Carthage.

Don't know from where the elephants were first brought into Iberia though...

Annie
Yes he did. Historically, he did. He built bridges to pass some areas he was stuck with water.

[Matt_Lane]

Yes he did. Historically, he did. He built bridges to pass some areas he was stuck with water.

Hamilcar took the Elephants over to Iberia during his conquest of it so they were already there when Hanibal took over the army after Hamilcars death. The Elephants were probably African with at least one Syrian Elephant and although much is written about Hanibal crossing the Alps and the Rhone (by raft) not much is mentioned about ferrying Packerderms across the straits of Gibraltar, even more impressive considering the Roman navy was dominant at the time.

[Ozzman1O1]

Elephants proved their worth to carthage after they killed many enemies in the truceless war,They were used in new carthage,cardoba,and anywhere else in spain the carthaginians settled....

[Mr Frost]

Transporting any elephants in number sufficient to be militarily useful over open ocean {or for that matter , the length of the Med unless you owned the shore you skirted and used lots of short "hops" with long rests in between} should be nigh impossible for the transport technology of the day .




The logistics of feeding and tending even one elephant over such distances on a 18th century ship would be daunting enough , but the several dozen required to make any impact on the scale represented in a Total War battle would be almost certainly beyond the capabilities of any nation at that time .

Most the creatures would almost certainly be dead from disease or infection {from having to remain so sedentiary for so long ; not good if you weigh 4 tonnes !} by the time the ships arived at destination even if they were transpoted only one per ship so enough fodder could be carried to keep them fed for the time of a voyage from , say India to Spain or England to South America {check just how much weight and volume of food an elephant requires each day then do the math} .





I get the impression that suppilying armies still isn't a concideration beyond mere money . A shame if my impression is correct .

Logistics define a militaries' ability to wage war more than training or equiptment , and would certainly fix silly ideas such as shipping 2 dozen Elephants and a whole army together half way accross the planet and having them even close to 100% combat ready {or , for that matter , 100% surviving} when the arrive !
Invading a country {with any real measure of success} accross an ocean should be a vastly more difficult undertaking than doing such accross dry land routs !

[Apostle Zodd]

To me having elephants would be just another overhyped impractical unit that will just be in the way of good gaming.

OOOooooor the CA way and its just an excuse to mount a howetiser on its back or something of that sort....:2thumbsup:

[PBI]

There are two kinds of elephants present in TW games.

There are the unstoppable, indestructible walking tanks of the Timurids in M2TW, and there are the potentially powerful, but hard to use well and surprisingly fragile elephants of Broken Crescent.

It would be absurd if the first type were present in the game, but I wouldn't have any problem with the second type being there, especially since they will be totally outclassed by the weaponry of the period anyway. In fact I think it would seem very strange to conquer India and not encounter elephants.

Regarding the logistics of naval transport, CA has always wisely left them out almost completely, making it possible to load an entire army of thousands with attached siege train on a single bireme, and sail it halfway around the world without stopping. In my view this is the lesser of two evils, if they were represented correctly the player would spend half the game just worrying about building transports and laying down provisions and barely ever get to fight an actual battle, especially since Empire will focus so heavily on overseas expansion. And consider how hard the poor AI already finds it to conduct a half-decent amphibious attack.

[JeromeGrasdyke]

To me having elephants would be just another overhyped impractical unit that will just be in the way of good gaming.

OOOooooor the CA way and its just an excuse to mount a howetiser on its back or something of that sort....:2thumbsup:

Hmmmm... upright armoured elephants with a hand-cannon in each forefoot and a laser gun mounted on the trunk... tempting... but no. Sorry. Not even as a cheat unit.

[Caerfanan]

Hmmmm... upright armoured elephants with a hand-cannon in each forefoot and a laser gun mounted on the trunk... tempting... but no. Sorry. Not even as a cheat unit.
OK, I'll probably buy the game then! :laugh4:

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I'll be sadded if they didn't have ELes in ETW. Besides, you going to invade Indina and not see Eles ? :inquisitive:

[pike master]

Awesome info from Matt on elephant warfare.

Elephants were most certianly brought up from the northwest coast of Africa under Hannibal. 11th century contemporary wall paintings depict Moorish war elephants. So one would assume that the Forest Elephant was still around in limited numbers.

Africa was not the only source of Elephants during the Roman era. Pyrhuss used elephants that were raised from the Balkans.

Elephants were still being used as beast of burden on occasion carrying weapons and supplies during the Vietnam war.

[Jolt]

Haha, elephants raised in mountainous Albania, that's a good one. Pyrrhus' full grown elephants were of Indian origin given to/bought by (don't remember which one) Pyrrhus from the Seleucids. In any standard occasion, Pyrrhus could never raise elephants in such a climate.

To Jerome: Since "Laz0r elephants" can't be on, what about "Kevlar Elephants"? Not a bad idea. I'm sure it would appease all elephant fanboys, it's from the same line as Schreeing Women, Head Hurlers or Siberian Amazon Chariots! :)

[LadyAnn]

Ah I miss the screeching women!

Annie

[Jochi Khan]

Ah I miss the screeching women!

Annie

They were a sight to see Annie. :scared:

[DefenderofFuture]

I think Creative Assembly just LOVES elephants. Elephants were only used in minor roles at this time, where they were at all. But the same was true of the Medieval period, and that didn't stop CA from including them in M2TW. I think it's a safe bet that they will be included, and they will be unrealistically powerful. But I don't mind. If I want realism, I'll download mods from The Guild!

[batemonkey]

Well there is a suit of armour for an elephant from 18th century India in a museum somewhere, so that would suggest that elephants were still used there. I think they were also used in south east Asia.


It's in the Royal Armouries in Leeds, apprently they trained the elephant to use a sword or cudgel with its trunk!!

I know that when clive of india came up against the elephants he wiped them out and the indians were not best pleased:smg:

[RLucid]

Come on guys, Ele's are wimpy old hat, must be oldfashioned now, it's not RTW!

They could spice things up with "Primeval" style units. For instance a platoon of mounted archers on T-Rex's would be far more exciting, just watch those pike & musket-men run when the earth moves for them and 12 tons of terror lizard try to take a chomp out of them! Other new world options, Sabre Tooth's and Short Faced Bears would also be cool!

Imagine how the strange smell & roar of T-Rex-ies would insta-rout all the other animal based units!

[Furious Mental]

War elephants were still in plentiful use in some eras. Saying that they were outdated and therefore not used makes no sense; it is precisely because of the advantage Europeans had from uneven technological and military development that they crushed so many enemies. You may as well deduce that spears, bows and arrows, and matchlocks were not used anywhere either.

[RLucid]

I was being tongue in cheek humerous, ironical, not serious. In particular reacting to comments about Ele's being included and being over-powered and the sword/club wielding Ele.

Seriously though, I saw somewhere a map for ETW, I remember it looked funny with S. Africa snipped off, was SE Asia MIA to? This post on the factions included announced factions (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1885486&postcount=337) appears to suggest SE Asia factions weren't considered significant enough.

Elephants would very likely have a role, wherever they are worked today, for logistic purposes. If they were used significantly in some areas, then fine; but they should suffer horrendously against gun powder technology, not be effective (remember grenades not just muskets). Natives had a way of acquiring European weapons, their socs. were crushed as much by disease, exploitation of divisions (British Army in India was manned mostly by Indians) and the knock on changes of new "technologies" (even horse arriving in N. America altered way of life and likely allowed raiders to cause collapse of agricultural culture through their sudden increase of mobility).

Is it really going to be a good game, if the Imperialists are competing against obsolete technology factions? Surely mainly the competition is against each other (which combined with commercial interests) appears to be the main cause of development of British Empire, rather than policy.

As for the Indian Armour, I don't see that as being very signifcant.

Clive wiping out Ele units, shows how effective they ought to be.

Wellington started out in India, in the military Historian Richard Holmes biography, Elephants get less mention (ie. none) than the WWII 1939 Polish Cavalry charge (which was actually IIRC German staged propaganda). They're not the kind of thing that's going to get missed out in accounts (you never forget an Elephant), so they must have been regarded as militarily worthless at that time.

So if the Indian's weren't using them on the battlefield in late 18th century, why might you have it made?

Even today, it's common for ceremonial purposes to have old fashioned stuff around, for instance in London it's not unknown to see shiny breastplates, swords & horse artillery. If you fight the British army, don't expect them to turn up so equipped on the battlefield. It seems very likely that exotic units would be retained for show, in a similar way.

[rajpoot]

Maybe we can have these units like we had the Holy Cross unit in M2TW, while on Crusades......not really useful for fighting but kind of a moral booster. Come to think of it, even if rulers did not actually fight on the field any longer, they can still have a nice little unit in the field, without much combat value, just to have the moral boost effect.

[RLucid]

Does it really boost your morale when some REMF (*) idiot sends something for show, rather than useful aid, that requires a lot of logistical support, which would have supported a load more guns or horses?

* REMF = Rear Echelon MF ie. someone safely distant from frontline

[rajpoot]

Well we do have the example of the cross being carried all the way to Hattin......symbols, if believed in by enough people can be more effective than you think. It is a matter of belief. And many people believe. What of the Potsdam Giants? They were symbolic.
If you look at it logically it is ofcourse ridiculous. The unit is not aiding you, in battle, infact you have to strive to keep it protected, but still, like I said, it is a matter of belief.

[RLucid]

Crosses don't eat tons of fodder every day. Nor were they going to turn and run through their own side once big bangs started; and are as dangerous to own side as opponents.

If your side actually believes in the battle Ele's its even worse, because artillery and such is going to make mincemeat of them; you up for a big morale penalty when they suffer?

The Mongols even circa 1300 had grenades with about a 20ft blast radius, do Ele's really belong on battlefield in 1700 against the factions which are basically modernising European technological powers?

I came across the map again, it's in the ETW summary sticky thread, includes SE Asia Dutch E. Indies etc, presumably as "target" trading colonies for the empires, given the main faction list. If the Morale bonsus is arguement for fantasy style Special Power units like RTW's Wardogs, Druids, Screeching Women etc; then having T-Rex's would be much cooler graphics and loads more carnage... and no sillier than Ele's waving swords from trunks etc

Perfect sense though to have Ele's as working animals, doing a real job moving stuff about and earning keep, so long as the supply issues are plausibly represented.

[RLucid]

Elephants were rarely used in Europe even when they could provoke a devastating effect, one time by Pyrrhus and another time by Hannibal. I don't recall any other usage of elephants militarily.
Think the Romans used Ele's to in early Macedonian war, where they used them as cavalry screen, like Hannibal (not the over-powered battle tank versions which chew up a whole army).

All the enemy need to do is get together some iron spikey things, bit like the barbs on barbed wire and your Ele's loose any offensive effectiveness (1 archer per Ele is not high fire density, and visible missile could be dodge by troops in open order).

So they weren't any good once opposition had some time to come up with a counter.

[rajpoot]

If your side actually believes in the battle Ele's its even worse, because artillery and such is going to make mincemeat of them; you up for a big morale penalty when they suffer?


That is why we lost, :shrug: more or less outdated weapons, obsolete tactical ideas, these played a major part in many a battle....the Rajahs rode to war (whenever they did) on elephants. Riding an elephant was something the social elite did, and was considered prestigious. Ofcourse, like you say, in practical battle it was useless. But that did not make it dissapear from the scene completely.

[Furious Mental]

"do Ele's really belong on battlefield in 1700 against the factions which are basically modernising European technological powers?"

Of course. Plenty of countries still fought in medieval or even more outdated fashions. If every faction can just train modern European style armies from the outset the game will be ridiculous in terms of historical accuracy, dead boring for lack of variety, and impossibly hard if one plays as a European country trying to create an overseas empire. As happened historically, the decline of war elephants and indeed all other former military practices in places where they were still employed should be linked to the acquisition of firearms and artillery and new military ideas via trade with Europeans.

[RLucid]

Think you're asking for "realistic" Ele's there, not the Abrams M1A2 type versions some suggested (better to have obvious fantasy stuff like T-Rexs rather than distort real units unrealistically). Will be a wonder you don't have the Cruelty to Animals ppl after you :sweatdrop:

Turkey shoot battle won't be very interesting for long though.

[Furious Mental]

I think it would be interesting to play as some of the would-be victims and go about making the transition to modern military.

[RLucid]

Presumes CA will be able to design a suitable modernising tech tree, for peoples who were colonised in reality; to give you a reasonable plausible and playable option. The games going to be rather big, just with the main Western factions without fleshing out all the incidentals, to make them worthwhile playables. Is it feasible?

[rajpoot]

Trouble is, I doubt they'll do it so, that in the beginning the tech tree has weak and obsolete units, and then slowly you move on to technologically advanced once......for example, while playing Apaches in Americas, I found that there really wasn't much need to go ahead and train gunners, I could manage quite well with me stone armed spearmen and archers.......they'll balance the game in the weak factions favour rather than have reality.

[RLucid]

That's the worst of all worlds. Now we encourage Elephant M1A2 syndrome.

[Furious Mental]

Well really if they don't have a system for trade and diplomacy to disseminate technologies the game will be quite silly because it was integral to things like the Great Circuit Trade and how imperial powers co-opted native rules and used them as clients.

[Copperknickers]

I loved elephants in RTW, and always hire them as mercs in M2TW. Obviously in this time period the use of elephants has seriously diminished, but is there word of playable elephants for the factions in the "third world"? (for lack of a better term) Such as in India or Afghanistan? Or did everyone stop using them by now? I don't think elephants would be very useful against muskets...


Just to make this clear, India and Afghanistan were by no means third world countries at this time. The Mughals were one of the greatest warrior empires the world has ever seen, and they left behind them such spectacular architecture as the Taj Mahal and hte Red Fort ad Delhi. They would have used quite a lot of elephants, with riflemen on top of them, and there is evidence to suggest they were used to transport cannons.

Although the Mughals were somewhat in decline by the 18th century, they will use their elephants to put up a fierce resistance to any british or Dutch etc people with ideas on the subcontinent in ETW.

A mughal war elephant in full armour:
http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/chg/showme/chunked_image/shm00467.JPG

[Lusitani]

Elephants were native beasts there, as were lions in Italy, long long time back.

There were no native elephants in the Iberian Peninsula during the Punic Wars.

[shopperkimpy]

Siamese troops in Haws war late 19century
elephant with getling gun [right] and howitzer ?
https://img212.imageshack.us/img212/3250/hawwarsos2.jpg

[Furious Mental]

It's probably a falconet, similar to the sort used for zumboruks.

[LadyAnn]

What? Still talking about Elephants when CA was trying hard to show us sails? :)

Annie

[Dunhill]

I originally asked for elephants back in the Sword Dojo. I anticipated a Siamese / SE Asia mod, where elephants could be used in combat by generals and/or kings.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=602

Not much reply back then but they did appear as a unit, not a special, and seem to have been somewhat controversial ever since. However, this may just be the result of the changing of the game to what it is has become now.

I no longer play, but I see that the game is fun for quite a few. I reckon that special units like elephants are what makes the game enjoyable for many.

PS There are some good pics of Thai elephant armour and usage on the web, and a recent Thai "war" movie had elephants.

http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=Thai+war+movie+&hl=en&sitesearch=#q=Naresuan&hl=en&sitesearch=

It's unlikely most TW fans will see it as it's in Thai, and sadly this little promo doesn't have the best parts of elephants in combat. However it does depict an interesting time where gunpowder was really getting going in a time of swords and spears.

[Sabuti]

moved to new post