Unit Stats How to Convert Debate.

[Underway]

There already is a thread working on this to some extent right now.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=86858

The debat has bogged down to some extent, so I started this new thread, not to discuss the stats and conversion mathematics but the approach that we should take in doing the conversion.

Let me elaborate.

There are essentially two ways to do this conversion.

1) Figure out a direct point for point relationship between the unit stats in Warhammer WS,BS, S,T,I, A, Ld, Armour save, include special attacks and other special abilities (like cause fear, immune to psych, killing blow, poison etc...) with relation to the game. The figure out a unit production cost, carrying cost, build time.

Advantages: perhaps a more accurate conversion of the relative effectiveness of units against each other in the tactical combat arena.

Disadvantages: Difficult to figure out what a unit should be in production and carrying cost. Big effects on the strategic level of the game.

2) Find units in the MTW that are similar to units in Warhammer and then using an effectiveness comparison relate them to other units in MTW. Aka use Brettonians as the basis for figuring out Knights, peseants and longbowmen, then relate the effectiveness of Warhammer units of the same types to the other armies units.

Advantages: Already have unit costs and build times.

Disadvantages: May not as accurately portray the tabletop game in relative unit abilities.

So what we need is a bit of a consensus to look at the different methods, pick one and then put our efforts into getting that done effectively so we don't have any wasted effort. At the end of the day Bwain has the final say on what we do.

For those of us who don't mod effectivley but own all the Warhammer army books (like myself) we can really put paid to pavement and help out the dev team here. This is how we can contribute. So lets let the artists work and let us Warhammer and MTW fanatics pound out the numbers. But lets get the framework first. :2thumbsup:

[MangyElf]

The other thread didn't get bogged down, it ran out of steam. Since you wanted to pep the topic up I don't see why you couldn't have posted to the existing thread but it's not my call.

Anyway, just a quick comment or two on your alternate methods and their disadvantages.

1. Direct conversion

Disadvantages:

Impossible. There is no direct corellation between WH and TW stats, they are different games with different game mechanics.

However, you can approximate many stats by looking at the reasoning behind them and coming up with a reasonable conversion formula, as or similar to what I already suggested in the pre-existing thread.

2. The converstion equivalent of twinned towns

Disadvantages:

Working with subjective relationships is inefficient. Imagine writing all these subjective, non-formulaic conversions down as a reference material and you'll get the idea. They would need to be referred to or the risk is losing your place or train of thought during such a long process, not to mention coming back to it at a later date for additions or corrections.

It's definately inaccurate if you want to include other than human units. What does an orc compare to, or a dwarf? How about something way on out there as far as M2TW is concerned, like a rat ogre? You could get creative but why hammer square pegs into round holes if you don't have to?

[Underway]

I appologize for any misunderstanding in my thread. I just belived a clean break from the actual process of conversion (the nuts and bolts per say) to a more theoretical discussion of what we should concentrate on would be useful (an overview). The other thread seemed to become a discussion of nuts and bolts without a firm consensus of the best process.


It's definately inaccurate if you want to include other than human units. What does an orc compare to, or a dwarf? How about something way on out there as far as M2TW is concerned, like a rat ogre? You could get creative but why hammer square pegs into round holes if you don't have to?

Not necessarily. For example (this conversion would not be final) we can look at Peasants as the lowest in ability troops in the game. They are probably equivalent to skaven slaves who really really suck as well. Easy conversion. Skaven slaves with spears should have stats and moral like peasants, but with a faster movement as skaven slaves are fast moving. Who else has troops equivalent to skaven slaves in ability in WH. Well skellies' are that bad as well. They move slower, but cause fear and never break. Easy conversion as well. Taken a step further, skelli archers should have stats like peasant archers as they are bad archers, but they never break, and cause fear. With asp arrows (a building like practice range upgrade) they could have stats like longbowmen in an attack (but not the range or defence as that doesn't change with asp arrows).

Skaven slaves are also as WH stat similar to Brett Men at arms, but they have better armour, weapons and a shield. Same bad moral though. With this in mind then Town Militia stats would be a better fit to Men at arms due to the better weapon and shield.

Skinks are just skaven slaves (they have shields but lower toughness) but with javlins. So take the javlin missile unit missile attack but put peasant defence, and fast movement on them.

See what I mean.

For larger more powerful units then lets look at Brett Knights. Knights of the realm would be similar to Feudal Knights in power. KOTR are just as strong as trolls on a charge but weaker after the charge. Feudal Knights have a charge bonus so we add that charge bonus number to the Troll attack number. Then shave a point or two because trolls have a weaker WS. Trolls also have more attacks per model as KOTR do, how that is represented in the MTW I'm not sure but I think you can increase the attack rate of the models. If that is the case we do that as well. Trolls have more wounds than KOTR, more Toughness and regeneration. KOTR have better armour and the Ladies Blessing. Therefore you reduce the KOTR armour stat for the trolls 2 pts (to represent regeneration that is weaker than armour on a barded horse), remove shield pts altogether, but increase defence a bit because trolls are tougher.

Then once you get Trolls right you compare them to Ogres, Rat Ogres and Kroxigors in WH and modify the stats based upon that. Ogres are not a tough but carry big axes, they also have better moral. Rat Ogres are almost exactly the same as trolls in all their stats barring the regeneration, thus lower defence. Kroxigors have a similar defence and armour, but move fast and don't have as many attacks. They also use 2 handed weapons so have a much increased attack. Str 7 vs Str 5. Better moral here as well.

For Orcs and Dwarves, find an equivalent to an empire spearman. Itallian Militia are a good one. Dwarf warriors have a much better armour and slightly better attack, much better moral than empire spearmen. Orcs have a slightly better armour same attack, same movement, same moral.

[MangyElf]

I appologize for any misunderstanding in my thread. I just belived a clean break from the actual process of conversion (the nuts and bolts per say) to a more theoretical discussion of what we should concentrate on would be useful (an overview). The other thread seemed to become a discussion of nuts and bolts without a firm consensus of the best process.

It's all theory at this point because we've not been told anything is set in stone. I read any actual conversion stats in the original thread as illustrative of the conversion theories being proposed, certainly mine was and I did make that clear. I'm not bothered if the mod team and/or moderators aren't though, it just seemed a bit pointless, to me, to run the same discussion in two threads, even with a link to the original.


Not necessarily. For example (this conversion would not be final) we can look at Peasants as the lowest in ability troops in the game. They are probably equivalent to skaven slaves who really really suck as well.

That illustrates the problem in a nutshell because your example is arbitrary. Each step after your starting point will be arbitrary too. You have no means to be accurate when doing that and doing that is unavoidable.

For it work there also needs to be a M2TW unit for every WH unit. I haven't counted but surely there isn't one for each and of those that exist you're bound to be cramming square pegs into round holes unless you ignore those for which this is necessary, making even less to use in this way. If you have to start inventing any then you've just failed to use your suggested method of conversion.