* * * The Org Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Americas Campaign: Apache Started at 09-03-2007 15:01 by frogbeastegg Visit at https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=91153 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : frogbeastegg Date : 09-03-2007 15:01 Title : Americas Campaign: Apache This topic is for the Apache faction in Kingdoms expansion's Americas campaign. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Rumpole Date : 09-03-2007 17:27 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Here is a guide for Americas Campaign -- Apaches. My settings were Hard/Hard. It appears that the AI factions get lots of extra money, which means that you end up facing multiple stacks per city. The Apaches play differently from any faction in Europe. Here are the key differences. 1. Upkeep for units is almost nothing, so you can maintain almost a full stack per city(and you will need it). 2. Initially you can build only two types of unit outside your capital. You get access to the buildings meeting these goals: Construct 20 missile units, capture 5 settlements - get Hunter's Wigwam for Dog Soldiers Construct 50 missile units, capture 10 settlements - get Hunter's Longhouse for Koitsenko's Construct 20 infantry units, win 5 battles- get Raider's Wigwam for Apachean Scouts Construct 50 infantry units, win 10 battles- get Raider's Longhouse for Onde's Men You will have these wigwams and a few of the advanced units in your starting settlement. They are all terrible on defense. To get access to gunpowder and horses, you need to win a few battles against armies that have these technologies. The files make it look as if 10 wins are needed, but about 5 seemd to do the job. The gunpowder and horse units are very good, especially the Thunder Braves, mounted musketeers. 3. Since your units are weak. you will often need more than a full stack to win a battle against a single stack. Be sure to check the box to let the AI contorl the reinforcement stack when you start the battle. 4. General's units are nothing special, and the AI seems to target generals. Don't be surprised if your general is the first soldier killed in his unit. 5. You cannot build units in captured cities without first constructing all your own buildings from scratch. 6. You have nearly uncontested access to about 15 rebel settlements. 7. Auto-resolve is very erratic. It seems to overvalue your early units and undervalue your later ones. 8. Your opponents will have lots of cash. They pay ransom. The secret of success is the Warpath, which works like a Jihad. Try to call one as close to every 10 turns as you can, Remember to train up a second Piety 4 wiseman. Basic strategy: Split your initial troops into 2 nearly full stacks. With one, head west, then down the Pacific coast as far as you can. With the other head east. Aime for 20 recruits of each type and 10 settlements captured. If you don't know the map, turn off fog of war. Once the French arrive in Florida, about turn 20, beat up on them. If that doesn't get you guns and hourses, declare a Warpath against a Spanish city. You should have everything by turn 40 or so. It took me 87 turns for the long campaign (30 cities). The short one (20 cities) is much easier, since you only need all the rebel towns plus one AI opponent's cities. Rumpole is online now Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Multi-Quote with this Post -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : acemutha Date : 09-03-2007 22:40 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Actually I just lost with apache on H/H and got all units but onde's men. Tarascans won. Are you sure about the requirements for onde's men ? cuz I recruited definitely more than 50 infantry and had more than 10 settlements. Did you actually get them? Thx -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Mad Mac Date : 09-03-2007 22:48 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I think only Scouts and/or Medicine men meet the infantry requirement for Ondes Men. Just a guess, but it would explain why they're so hard to unlock. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Rumpole Date : 09-04-2007 01:37 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I got the Onde's men, though it took a long time! The Tarascans get an extra 12000 florins per turn, which lets them build unlimited troops. They also decare war when Amiable. I don't see how to beat them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : acemutha Date : 09-04-2007 10:47 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache What do you think about modifying the campaign script to infantry > 10 and settlement > 1 so we can see if only the scouts and medicine men count for that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Slaists Date : 09-04-2007 17:36 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache On turn 1, declare a war path to the eastern-most rebel province in the war-past list. Send a full stack that way and hire mercs as you go. Mercs will have 0 upkeep. Use mercs to take all rebel settlements along the warpath. Use one unit of the original stack to garrison the newly occupied settlement and move on. I did not use the original apache warriors in any of the 1st war-path fights, just used them sparingly to garrison the newly conquered villages. Note, in order for desertions not to kick in you will have to take each settlement on the first turn of arriving (no waiting). Use mercs to do the brunt of work and rehire as needed. By the time you reach the eastern-most rebel settlement you should be able to conquer all of the rebel settlements in modern day US South (except Florida). Here's a caveat, which seems different from the Crusades: a stack of war-path mercs led by a captain does not seem to desert as long as it stays close to the other stack lead by the original war-path leader (general). This allowed me to tag along two war-path stacks using just one general. -- playing a bit more with Apache's I've come to a conclusion that the European AI has a serious morale issues, facing native American troops consisting mostly of missile types. even when defending, the cocky AI (French) would attack (that's another problem...), allowing me to take the most advantageous position (on a hill-top) and wait. once hit with a barrage of missiles (no gunpowder needed), a full stack of European AI would rout even before reaching my lines. i guess, the europeans get a morale hit double whammy here: missile barage + being outnumbered about 2:1 (full stack versus full stack). feels almost like cheating... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : acemutha Date : 09-04-2007 19:03 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I think only Scouts and/or Medicine men meet the infantry requirement for Ondes Men. Just a guess, but it would explain why they're so hard to unlock. You are right ! Ok I've done some testing changing the campaign script to: ; indian_raiders_2 Recruit 50 infantry units & Win 10 battles monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType apachean and I_CompareCounter apachean_infantry_recruited > 20 and I_CompareCounter apachean_settlements_captured > 1 add_events event counter indian_raiders_2 date 0 end_add_events if I_LocalFaction apachean historic_event apachean_raiders_2 factions { apachean, } end_if terminate_monitor end_monitor So basically u need to conquer 1 settlement and train at least 21 infantry units. So i trained only medicine and scouts and that did the trick. Note that if your units betray you they don't count to the sum. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : diotavelli Date : 09-07-2007 14:35 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache First thing to realise about playing as Apaches is that you don't have to get hung up on spamming units in order to get upgrades; not to the extent of risking bankruptcy, anyway. To explain: the units you start with are good enough to do a job for you. The units you get following upgrades are better but not to the extent that the game gets radically easier or your tactics are going to change dramatically (at least until horses and guns but these are dependent on the arrival of the French, not on your appetite for unit-spawing). That being the case, you gain very little by getting the upgrades early, so what's the point in bankrupting yourself to do so? Your starting troops are sufficient for two stacks. One goes east on a warpath and the other cleans up down the Pacific coast. Each time you take a camp, recruit a dog soldier unit as garrison and then move on (you can normally move whilst the recruitment is ticking over if you keep taxation at normal). Keep your starting troops in the stack and you should be strong enough to take all rebel camps without resorting to mercenaries and you'll get some highly experienced warriors too. Only recruit extras units as you can afford them. By the time you've taken all rebel camps, you'll have two highly experienced stacks and a really healthy treasury. Round about now, you'll be face-to-face with the mesoamericans and the French will arrive. Hold off the mesos and whip the French with your experienced eastern stack, plus additional troops recruited as necessary. Let the French attack you in battle and you'll take them easy enough. Soon enough, you'll gain the initial horse and gun upgrades. Once the French are whooped, you'll have guns, horses and a full treasury. Now is the time to show your soft, southern neighbours what true Apache grit is about. Concentrate your remaining weaker troops into stacks and soften up anyone nearby; then hit them with improved troops. Keep aside one or two decent stacks to send on the Warpath against the Spanish. These can create havoc en route and should do enough to earn you the further gun and horse upgrades. Preserve troops at all times and don't over stretch yourself: if your treasury gets bare and you have a few casualty-heavy results, you're defenceless - and remember, this never happens to your opponents as they get the cash bonuses each turn. If you're sensible, you can grow at a reasonable rate and do so in a fashion that puts you ahead of the game technologically. Just because you can get upgrades, it doesn't mean you have to. In fact, fighting and winning with lower grade troops is more of a challenge and potentially more satisfying - plus, when you get upgrades, you feel like you've earned them, not just adopted an easy work-around. Not a strategy to everyone's taste but it worked for me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : doombringer Date : 09-08-2007 15:01 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache small note on the french: because they are in horde mode, i found it possible to assasinate them into submission because of the low numbers and local concentration of family members :yes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Cadwallon Date : 09-14-2007 02:39 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Battles are bloody affairs - particularly when you face the Mesoamericans. Hugh armies, high attack values combined with low armour values make for high casualties. I found the Chichimecs, with their huge stacks of heavy infantry very hard initially. You usually hadn't done enough damage with your missile troops before they get to your line. Until you get Kotisenkos (sp?) and Onde's men, the priests are probably your best bet. Don't rely on your general's body guard - they are lightly armoured and vulnerable - only commit them in rear charges - not attrition as they will lose against mesoamericans or Europeans who are tougher with higher attack values. Lost track of the number of general's I've lost. Money is not an issue. As one of the other posters said - your armies have a low maintenance cost - so go large! Elite armies are hard to build, so just build lots. I made one of the Mesoamericans my vassals (after taking two of their cities, then threatening them and offering them 15000). Next turn I'm in a war with the Aztecs and I have 500 000 florins in the kitty! Until you get Onde's Men you really don't have a line of battle infantryman that can go toe to toe with jaguar, eagle or other heavy infantry. Even with Onde's men, I'm finding it hard fighting the hordes of Aztecs that I'm now facing. I'm losing more than I'm winning - if it weren't for the continual streams of reinforcements coming from the north I'd be cactus and my frontier of former Chichimec territory would have long been swallowed up. Try using your mounted thunder braves to snipe and harry flanks. Thunder braves are great at shooting, but crap in combat - they won't last. Target your opponent's general, as you can guarantee he'll be doing the same (I've watched as I moved my general down the line - the opposing Aztecs followed him from the left to the right flank!). One tactic which is long but worthwhile is having only mounted troops - stay ahead of him, snipe his flanks and rear and don't let him get into combat until a large proportion of his army is gone or broken. Remember that thunder braves have long range and cause fear against your native opponents. The Europeans seem to have been limited and/or stamped out by their more numerous native american opponents. The aztecs, apachean and mayans are rampant. Now if I can only get the Mayans to declare war against the Aztecs... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : icek Date : 09-14-2007 10:42 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache it work in 1.4 on m/m and dont know if it a bug or feature but it seems that rebels in settlements dont have fire at will turned on and there are no more arrows chasing at you, so basically to capture settlements you need large portion of archers doing one volley, escape and replay. It takes long than usual full attack but this way you can lose less than 10 men fighting againts settlements with 6 archer units(dogs). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Droce Date : 09-16-2007 23:28 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Maybe is was just me, but playing h/vh was incredibly simple for one reason: Braves are insane morale killers. I get one general, 6 dog soldiers (or the K guys when I got them) 12 braves, and some medicine men for the chant and destroyed. As the enemy comes towards your lines (and every AI faction did that for me, even when I attacked) your dog soldiers will cause horrible damage, then when they get within range of the braves, a few spears sends them running. Even if they didn't run, the braves are powerful enough to survive in melee (and easily destroy the faction beneath you). The french died en masse because they simply charged, and the Spanish don't have enough numbers to cause you a problem. Another thing I did was ally Aztecs, they would never backstab because everyone was against them, so you could often stick an army beside theres and have them kill the enemy for you. Another thing, warpath is vastly overrated (and my elder died right at the start, so I could only use one), because every town you conquer can build your staple troops in a few turns. Not to mention that every city can support it's own full stack. My two cents. Hello everyone, also. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Benandorf Date : 09-17-2007 01:37 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I have a question for my fellow chiefs: Is there any reason not to keep medicine men in chant? Are there any negative effects at all? From what I've seen, it gives a big morale boost, lowers enemy morale, and takes nothing away. Does it stop when fighting? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Guyus Germanicus Date : 09-17-2007 05:38 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I have a question for my fellow chiefs: Is there any reason not to keep medicine men in chant? Are there any negative effects at all? From what I've seen, it gives a big morale boost, lowers enemy morale, and takes nothing away. Does it stop when fighting? Can't answer that question. But thought of something else. I've been fighting with apaches recruiting at least four medicine man units per stack. I haven't tried this - but I was wondering - could you not get the best of both functions by having one medicine man unit chant while using the other three to swarm to the enemy? I have found braves to be less reliable for frontal attacks simply because they tend to want to perform their function of spearthrowing first. I've found that my enemy usually tries to close with me quickly minimizing the amount of time they remain under my arrow showers. Unlike in RTW when the enemy would simply stand forever still while your archers could decimate them from afar. So, to compensate, I have recruited four scouts to compliment my medicine men. I recruit four units of braves as well. But it's the scouts and the medicine men that form my front line shield. And what I typically will do is swarm one enemy unit with 6-7 infantry. Get the rout started. Then hit another enemy unit. Concentration of force tactics. If I do periodic warpaths, the experience bonuses I acquire after a couple successes can give my scouts 2-3 silver chevrons which kicks their experience and skill levels up making them more formidable over time. So I'm getting a 11-12 attack factor power on scouts. In my current game I have a medicine man unit with three gold chevrons. So, to summarize, pre-Onde, I have 8 straight up infantry per stack (4 scouts & 4 medicine men), five dog soldier (pre-Koitsenko) or five Koitsenkos, and one chief. I always try to attack the French with at least two stacks at once - safety in numbers. It's amazing what swarms of Injuns can accomplish. A side benefit of recruiting so many scouts and medicine men has been that I reach the infantry recruiting threshold for Onde men quickly. Then all I need to do is win 50 battles, which usually takes a little longer. Once the gunpowder and horses are acquired I vary the stacks somewhat. I go with six mounted thunderbraves, keep the scouts and medicine man numbers the same, use at least 4-5 Koitsenko's and a chief, where possible. I'll vary it a bit with mounted archers. The mounted thunderbraves can really do a number on the armoured french units - both cavalry and heavy infantry. I think the thunder braves are the key to hitting the Tarascans and Txatclans (sp) with their eagle warriors, janguar troops and temple guard, etc. Will share more as I make discovery as to what works best. Bottomline, I always try to use two stacks in every attack. I've been toying with the idea of having one stack made up almost entirely of mounted thunderbraves and archers - simply harrass the be-hayzoos out of the Central American tribe until they close with my other stack which has real infantry. Ondes, medicine men, koitsenkos, and a few thunderbraves. It should work. What are your variations, guys? Any favorite tactics. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Cadwallon Date : 09-17-2007 06:26 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I concur - I tend to have a mobile stack of mounted thunderbraves sheparding a more HTH stack of Kotsienkos/Medicine Men/Ondes' Men/thunder braves with high star general. I still find it hard in big battles with mesoamericans - the sheer numbers makes them bloody affairs. Also - the Aztecs at the stage of game I'm in (VH/VH about turn 70 odd) have LOTS of stacks. I've counted around 20 full stacks of jaguars/eagle warriors coming my way. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Mithradates VI Date : 09-17-2007 16:06 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I got the Onde's men, though it took a long time! The Tarascans get an extra 12000 florins per turn, which lets them build unlimited troops. They also decare war when Amiable. I don't see how to beat them. My theory on why this is the case is to sort of imitate the fact that the Tarascans were the only culture in Mesoamerica at this point to actually smelt bronze, and use it as weapons. Since, you know, CA is too silly to actually try to create units for the Tarascans that are different from the Aztecs. I have a friend who has an apache game going, and he says the key to success is to attack EVERYTHING and everyone, As fast as possible. He's also said that after you hammer away at the french to get weapons, he has achieved an alliance with them...and they're working in tandem against the Tarascans. Also, he's said that Apache Braves are the key unit for victory. I'll be trying it out later, so I'll be sure to let you all know. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Gaius Terentius Varro Date : 09-17-2007 16:43 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Don't Koitsenko have same melee stats as guachichil warriors? So one can melee test Guachichil against Onde's men and decide which is better. Guachichil will win of course every time and to that result add the amount of kills Koitsenko will rack up with their bows before the lines meet and subtract the dread Onde's men cause . Verdict: Onde's men good against cavalry but I'd rather have Koitsenko's in a scrap any day. Oh and I ran test campaign with just apache braves recruited and got hunter's wigwam and then hunter's longhouse so they do count towards the missile units recruitment total. At same time as i got koikotsenko (hunter's longhouse) i got raiders wigwam even without making a single melee unit. So i retested and made only rabbit boys and same result: when i got to hunters longhouse i got raider's wigwam with it without making a single melee unit. Tried one just recruiting medicine men and got nothing not a sausage, zip. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Bernhard of Clairvaux Date : 09-18-2007 07:40 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I was surprised to find how easy an Apache campaign has been so far. I took captured all nearby rebel settlements and advanced east until I met the french in close to Lousiana. I brought four stacks (no onde or koitchenkos). I won all battles against the French without much trouble. I followed the advice to outnumber but before the reinforcement arrived I always found that I had won. Now I have gun infantry and cavalry and the french live on only because I have not finished them. Economy is not a problem ever. Cheap upkeep means you can mass recruit all the time. Maybe it will get tougher but with gunner I doubt it. Fun but very easy. The French troops are too few to be able to win. Especially braves can be very useful for breaking morale of superior troops in a critical moment. Apache remind me of Russia in the GC. Much missile and much room to expand. The favour of deciding when to do battle is just too favourable to make you fail. Playing on VH/VH -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : DrZoidberg Date : 09-30-2007 14:04 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache How do I get my reinforcements to actually reinforce? Whenever I attack with several Apache armies my reinforcements just stand there from where ever the entered the map and don't budge, until my head force is wiped out. I put them in aggressive mode. Doesn't seem to do the trick. How does it work? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Cheetah Date : 09-30-2007 17:39 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache How do I get my reinforcements to actually reinforce? Whenever I attack with several Apache armies my reinforcements just stand there from where ever the entered the map and don't budge, until my head force is wiped out. I put them in aggressive mode. Doesn't seem to do the trick. How does it work? Are you sure you have checked the proper boxes before the battle? There is a list showing generals and armies and you have to allow the AI to controll these armies and use them as reinforcement (i.e. check both boxes). IF you did so then the general's unit card will appear in the upper right corner of the screen during battle. Just select the unit card (which selects the whole army) and then left click on the spot you want them. Also you can select the stance. Probably you just forgot to order them to move with left click. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : DrZoidberg Date : 10-04-2007 20:11 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Are you sure you have checked the proper boxes before the battle? There is a list showing generals and armies and you have to allow the AI to controll these armies and use them as reinforcement (i.e. check both boxes). IF you did so then the general's unit card will appear in the upper right corner of the screen during battle. Just select the unit card (which selects the whole army) and then left click on the spot you want them. Also you can select the stance. Probably you just forgot to order them to move with left click. I thought they'd behave just like they do in ordinary MTW2. Thanks -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : icek Date : 10-06-2007 10:39 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache How many times will french land with their expeditions ? Im in 55 turn. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Monsieur Alphonse Date : 10-06-2007 10:45 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache 10 times. Gives you plenty of fun to practice your skills. The last stacks will be led by a captain who is also faction leader. Assassins can do the job for you. :sneaky: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : icek Date : 10-06-2007 10:57 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache lol, ive got army of mounted gunners for that :juggle2: But you talk about 10 stacks or 10 movies about this? Because i destroyed already 8 stacks i think from 2 expeditions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : DrZoidberg Date : 10-11-2007 18:02 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache lol, ive got army of mounted gunners for that :juggle2: But you talk about 10 stacks or 10 movies about this? Because i destroyed already 8 stacks i think from 2 expeditions. I think it's a never ending story. But apart from the two first ones which are big, the later ones are pathetic. Not even a full stack. I don't even bother having an army ready for protection. I just buy the troops in the nearest settlements and kill the poor sods. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Don Esteban Date : 10-23-2007 07:52 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache The number of victories needed to get Thunder braves and horses seems to vary depending on difficulty on M/M (I know, I know too easy!!!) it only took two victories against the Spanish to get both. In both cases I captured a lot of prisoners and ransomed them - maybe that helps. Still no Onde's men or Koitsenkos though.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : Taiwan Legion Date : 10-23-2007 09:39 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache how does one use medicine men properly? I see that they have high attacks but low defense. What do you do? Just charge in and hope the enemy rout? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : DrZoidberg Date : 10-25-2007 16:09 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache They cause fear no matter if they're in combat. I keep them behind my lines as a back up force to rush in, when needed. But once more advanced troops came, I didn't think they where worth it. A full unit of braves or dog boys are better, and have cheaper upkeep. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : icek Date : 10-25-2007 16:33 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache i have yesterday complited the most boring experience ever i had with tw games that is called apache campaign. Fighting mesos are so dull... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : Shahed Date : 10-25-2007 18:49 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache They cause fear no matter if they're in combat. I keep them behind my lines as a back up force to rush in, when needed. But once more advanced troops came, I didn't think they where worth it. A full unit of braves or dog boys are better, and have cheaper upkeep. So there's no difference to enemy morale if the Medicine men are chanting or not ? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : fluffsuit Date : 10-26-2007 06:13 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache ok, just wondering how to get mounted thunderbraves. i already have both horses and thunderbraves and have had them for awhile now. do i have to keep fighting the europeans? the spanish were destroyed around turn 20, guess someone killed all their warleaders. i fought the french and got the units, now they're gone too. that leaves the english who i can't find. i guess they're in cuba where i can't get to them. i really want to try the mounted thunder units out. would suck to have to start over when i almost have 30 regions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : Monsieur Alphonse Date : 10-26-2007 12:27 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I got them after winning three battles against the French. You have to kill/capture lots of musketeers and conquistadores. After two battles I could train mounted braves and thunder braves and after the third battle I was able to train mounted thunder braves. The French land 10 stacks in North America. Use them to get the new units. The English land in Honduras (right lower corner) to annoy the Mayans and the Spanish. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : fluffsuit Date : 10-30-2007 04:58 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache darnit. so i guessi'm gonna have to start the campaign all over again after getting so far. i wish there was some way i could just unlock the units. like editing the save file or something. oh well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : aimlesswanderer Date : 11-03-2007 05:31 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache My biggest problem is that I have a serious shortage of relos (7 for 16 provinces), due mostly to natural disasters, as my family members seem to react badly if they come into contact with water.... eg 5% of the troops died, but my family member, scout, emissary and assassin all croaked it due to a flood. This has led to lots of captain stacks, which keep going rebel.... I guess they have a valid reason for not washing very often. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : Sheogorath Date : 11-10-2007 09:26 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Man those Aztecs are tough... I find that the AI seems to only concentrate on one unit at a time if your army is small enough. You can inflict some serious damage if your 'runner' is fast enough. On a side note, I really didnt have that much trouble with the Tarascans. Those 12,000 florins a turn didnt seem to even phase the Aztecs...now my only problem is that the Aztecs are knocking on my doorstep with about twenty full stacks and my friendly Chichimec and Mayan neighbors, although they've broken their alliances with the Aztecs, are not being overly helpful, even though they've got a ton of units hanging around the middle of their territory. I've got me some horseboys now though, so we'll see about turning the tide, eh? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : DrZoidberg Date : 11-10-2007 17:01 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Man those Aztecs are tough... I find that the AI seems to only concentrate on one unit at a time if your army is small enough. You can inflict some serious damage if your 'runner' is fast enough. On a side note, I really didnt have that much trouble with the Tarascans. Those 12,000 florins a turn didnt seem to even phase the Aztecs...now my only problem is that the Aztecs are knocking on my doorstep with about twenty full stacks and my friendly Chichimec and Mayan neighbors, although they've broken their alliances with the Aztecs, are not being overly helpful, even though they've got a ton of units hanging around the middle of their territory. I've got me some horseboys now though, so we'll see about turning the tide, eh? The Aztecs are very tough. But I broke them by attrition. I often lost but since I had more stacks I still won in the end. I used plenty of ranged weapons. I tried to fight them when I had the advantage of terrain. The new aggressive defender attitude you can really play to your advantage. Hit and run doesn't really work since Aztecs are not only tough they're also "very good stamina" and "Excellent moral". Apache horses are not good at fighting, not even hit and run, or charge in the back. I used them to pepper approaching Aztecs to lower their moral, and use them to split their forces to make them more manageable when they reach my main force. You can also use hit and run on their cities. They need pretty advanced buildings to build any troops of value, so once you take their city, you'll demolish all those buildings, making it harder for him to recruit the hard boys. When I first attacked them I started by recruiting from my whole kingdom, and by the time my rear cities troops had reached my front my army was huge. It took a while, but I really needed it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Author : kitbogha Date : 11-10-2007 17:31 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Hi all! Just joined the site and have been enjoying all the posts on this thread in particular, as I am playing the Apache campaign. It's a great campaign and having been playing Total War for years is maybe my fave yet. I am on around turn 80 and have finally crushed those pesky Tarascans. I am pondering my next move, which is likely to be against the Chichimec, who , although nominally my allies are getting less friendly due to the high handed way I have been moving armies through their lands to take on our mutual enemies. That's gratitude for you!! I have saved thier bacon a few times. Now it seems a pre-emptive strike may be in order... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Author : Sheogorath Date : 11-10-2007 17:59 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I'll make sure to try that, Zoidburg. I'm glad the Chichimecs are still around though. Theyre forcing the Aztecs into a single front, since its impossible to move through their territory due to the MASSIVE FREAKING ARMY forming a human wall between my western territories and them :P So...time to start the Bravespam! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 40] Author : kitbogha Date : 11-10-2007 18:26 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I'll make sure to try that, Zoidburg. I'm glad the Chichimecs are still around though. Theyre forcing the Aztecs into a single front, since its impossible to move through their territory due to the MASSIVE FREAKING ARMY forming a human wall between my western territories and them :P So...time to start the Bravespam! The Chichimecs are very handy to keep around as long as they prove useful, let the Aztecs blunt their resources on them and then mop up what's left. :smash: "History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it." Winston Churchill -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 41] Author : kitbogha Date : 11-10-2007 20:07 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Also, he's said that Apache Braves are the key unit for victory. I'll be trying it out later, so I'll be sure to let you all know. Apache Braves? I have found them to be pretty poor, especially as the game progresses, I have been using them primarily as cheap garrison troops-on the other hand Mounted Thunder Braves are the Daddy!!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 42] Author : fluffsuit Date : 11-11-2007 02:43 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache a good stack to use is all mounted thunder braves. divide it into 2 parts. one part leads the enemy around while the other attacks teh rear and flanks. once you're low on ammo just have a few hit the rear of isolated units until you either win or atleast really decimate the stack. in this way you should be either able to totally destroy the army or atleast destroy more than half and leave the rest depleted. then with the second stack of braves, koitsenkos and thunder braves that you should have nearby, hit them on the same turn and put a row of brave, then a row of koitsenkos which can hold their own pretty well in melee, too. then place about 4 or so thunderbraves either behind them higher up if there's a hill or to one side so they have a clear line of fire. this formation works great on half stacks and even 2/3 stacks. it can still dish out alot of damage on a full stack unless there's a good general. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 43] Author : fluffsuit Date : 11-11-2007 02:49 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache forgot to add that i eliminated the taxcalans who annoyed the crap out of me with their fifty million stacks and infinite money, by sending in about 10 assassins and over about 20 turns killed all their leaders and generals. if you do this with a smaller faction before they get so big its alot easier, but somehow feels like cheating. it is a good option to get rid of an annoying opponent if you're tied up with another war elsewhere. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 44] Author : kitbogha Date : 11-11-2007 11:18 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache [QUOTE=fluffsuit]a good stack to use is all mounted thunder braves. divide it into 2 parts. one part leads the enemy around while the other attacks teh rear and flanks. Yes, I have found that a good plan too. Also, if you place your infantry right back and up on high ground you can send mounted thunder braves and mounted apaches to harrass the enemies as they advance (remembering to switch the skirmish mode on for thunder braves!-the ammount of times I've been caught out by that one....:wall: ). By the time they get to your lines you will have seriously messed with their morale and a well timed surprise attack from some scouts (who can conceal themselves virtually anywhere) causes a very pleasing domino effect of routing enemies who you can then mop up with ease using your cavalry who will have by then run out of missiles and can just run them down as they they try to escape.:charge: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 45] Author : Sheogorath Date : 11-12-2007 05:14 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Wouldnt you know it, the Chichimecs decided that it'd be a good time to betray our alliance and attack me. Meanwhile the French AI suddenly got really good and now I've got ten stacks of French moving rapidly westwards. Since I've got no more trade agreements I cant afford to keep unit production at the point where I can sustain armies against the Aztecs, who apparently found a new reserve of troops. somewhere. Well, this game's a bust. Next time I'm gonna get those Chichimec bastards while theyre helpless. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 46] Author : Taiwan Legion Date : 11-12-2007 06:58 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Apache Braves pwns. I put them as my line troops. And I have missles in the back. Basically whie they're marching toward my line, my missles would have been shooting at them none stop for a while. After they reach my line, a volley of javelines from Apache Braves sends them running most of the time. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 47] Author : kitbogha Date : 11-12-2007 16:36 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Wouldnt you know it, the Chichimecs decided that it'd be a good time to betray our alliance and attack me. Meanwhile the French AI suddenly got really good and now I've got ten stacks of French moving rapidly westwards. . Those Chichimecs are scum, right enough. I am moving on and taking Tlaxcalan cities whilst keeping enough stacks around to discourage/deal with Chichimec betrayals-I was very surprised at how few warriors they have, amybe they are concentrating on attacks from the Mayans on their other front. Meanwhile, I am having some trouble with the accursed French, who are circling around Caddo Camp with seven stacks, but appear reluctant to attack the town. I fought two of their stacks with one of mine this morning and managed to destroy them both with around 50% losses on my side, so do not despair Sheogorath, perhaps you can turn the tide...... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 48] Author : Sheogorath Date : 11-12-2007 21:20 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Those Chichimecs are scum, right enough. I am moving on and taking Tlaxcalan cities whilst keeping enough stacks around to discourage/deal with Chichimec betrayals-I was very surprised at how few warriors they have, amybe they are concentrating on attacks from the Mayans on their other front. Meanwhile, I am having some trouble with the accursed French, who are circling around Caddo Camp with seven stacks, but appear reluctant to attack the town. I fought two of their stacks with one of mine this morning and managed to destroy them both with around 50% losses on my side, so do not despair Sheogorath, perhaps you can turn the tide...... The Tlax and Thrax have both been wiped out in my campaign, the Tlax vanished around turn ten or so, and the Aztecs took all the Thrax's lands with a little help from me. I was kinda suprised considering how tough people said they were. But yeah, I've noticed that Apache units seem to be quite effective against the French, at least. I've seen a few Braves vs. Curassier battles where the Braves came out on top with minimal casualties somehow. Curious. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 49] Author : fluffsuit Date : 11-13-2007 00:08 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache if the french arent being lead by a high trait general, then the apaches pretty much clean up. if there's not alot of calvary you can pretty much get by with braves and dog soldiers and not lose too many. i think its the spears that do it. even if you don't have alot of archers when they come into range of the spears it kills their moral. the musketeers stay away like you'd expect so if there are really only about 4 to 5 units of heavy infantry then you can out number them and use a couple of braves to hit their flanks and rear and then chase down the musketeers. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 50] Author : kitbogha Date : 11-13-2007 07:46 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Even their heavy cavalry prove to be pretty ineffective against a well balanced Apache army, you can virtually see their morale dropping as they charge into the wall of musket fire:hmg: , I have also concentrated on taking out the general, something I don't usually bother much about. Achieved victory last night on turn 104, following a decisive clash with the Tlaxcallans at their East coast city (name eludes me). Thought I'd tidy things up by rounding up the stray French stacks and putting them to the lance before moving on to start a campaign as the Chichimecs, who look like a decent proposition. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 51] Author : fluffsuit Date : 11-13-2007 18:00 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache do the chichimecs get mounted thunderbraves? that would seem like over kill since they have even better infantry than the apaches. all it says in the description is that they can use their enemies technology. but yeah the only trouble i've had with the calvary is if i didn't have enough archer units to hit them at long range. if you have archers then by the time they get to the lines they've been hit with steady archer fire and then the braves so they usually break just before or just after hitting your lines. i usually assassinate the generals myself cuz i'm too lazy to chase em down. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 52] Author : Monsieur Alphonse Date : 11-13-2007 22:10 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache The Chichimecs get a mounted lancer and a normal thunder brave but no mounted thunder brave -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 53] Author : kitbogha Date : 11-14-2007 15:17 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache The Chichimecs get a mounted lancer and a normal thunder brave but no mounted thunder brave If they had mounted thunder braves they'd be almost unbeatable. Having finished my Apaches campaign I have just started a Chichimec one and even their starting units are very formidable indeed. Only on turn 15 and have taken seven settlements from rebels/Apaches. I would recommend the Chichimeca to anyone who is enjoying the Apache campaign. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 54] Author : bigcow Date : 12-07-2007 06:33 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Hi guys, thanks to people's advices here, I had a really fun time with Apache's vh/vh long campaign and finished it tonight on turn 71, never lost a battle. :laugh4: I love this faction and I recommand people to play this faction, one of the most fun and best faction compare to others, specially for those of you like me who are HA lovers. After I can recruit MTB it just become ownage in the game, didnt even need Onde's Man, just the MTB+Koistsenko combo can do the job, and ofcourse 3-4 shamen to chant behind Koist's line. I tried different combination, and think this worked the best for me. In the begining I did have a little bit hard time, the faction below me Chichimic(sorry for the spell) had back stabed me around turn 20ish...so my move towards south got stoped and had to focus on east destroying French Army to hurry get MTB/TB and defend my south boarders with just Apache braves and dog soilders. You cant build road for this faction so the movement of the army is really slow, I depended truly on War Path, it is really useful, plus the experience your troops can gain. Not much advices here since most of them been covered. It was kinda hard to defend the city since you cant build city walls, all your cities are Camps, like villiege. Put archer units on the little hills in the villige and braves block the paths, if they over powering, just withdraw them back to town center, braves do pretty good job of defending. Definitly make lots of archers in the south against the natives, no armour=archer's best meal, use TB/MTB vs Eroupeans. Try to move south as soon as you can after u can make better troops like MTB/Koist, before they can get mass stacks. In my game, the Mayans was the Empier of the South, and finished Spain early, and became a war lord with crazy stacks, but with my Koist/MTB combo, their heavy troops become like paper, and route crazy,I usually use 1 stack vs their 2-3 full stacks, sooo many freakin dead bodies on the ground and lags the hell outa my computer lol. A good tactic I used was sneak 3-4 MTB units towards top right in the begining, and charge the General's units, most of the time its like instan kill the bodyguard, cuz infantry runs so slow, as long as you have more range units then the enimie, they tend to come to you even when you are attacking, its a good adventage for me to place my troops on the right place. I had to reload the save file because I killed the French leader right when they landed...it was a very hard battle too with lots death... forgot that will destroy their faction :wall: .....so becareful on that, if they dont spawn then its really hard to get horse/gun until late time if you are lucky to move south and meet Spain/England. Too bad that we can't make ships to travel across the ocean hehe. Good luck guys, thats about all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 55] Author : Monsieur Alphonse Date : 12-07-2007 13:57 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache The French come in 8 to 9 waves. Even if you kill the first wave they will keep respawning. Just kill enough musketeers and cavalry to get the MTBs -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 56] Author : bigcow Date : 12-07-2007 23:36 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache They French come in 8 to 9 waves. Even if you kill the first wave they will keep respawning. Just kill enough musketeers and cavalry to get the MTBs Oh really? Even if it said "French Faction destroyed" and the remaining army turned rebels...they will still continue to spawn? Hmmm I don't know man, I'm going to try that next time then. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 57] Author : DrZoidberg Date : 12-08-2007 10:33 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Oh really? Even if it said "French Faction destroyed" and the remaining army turned rebels...they will still continue to spawn? Hmmm I don't know man, I'm going to try that next time then. I think it's never ending. They just keep coming. But it's only the first two waves that are any fight. The rest of them are pathetic. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 58] Author : kitbogha Date : 12-08-2007 15:20 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache You cant build road for this faction so the movement of the army is really slow, I depended truly on War Path, it is really useful, plus the experience your troops can gain. The War Path is also highly useful when you come up against the Mayans, as I did late on when I had fulfilled the objectives and was just tidying up and bringing the whole map into my empire. I don't know how easy they are early on but they are very formidable opponents in the closing stages due to the sheer numbers of heavy infantry they bring to the party. I had several respectable looking and seemingly well balanced stacks wiped out by them. However, if you declare a War Path you can pick up lots of cannon fodder infantry and archers to rush them and hold them for your Thunder Braves and missile cavalry to unload on. :evilgrin: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 59] Author : aimlesswanderer Date : 12-12-2007 12:23 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache The bloody units which have very high morale and very high stats (the g-something Chichimec units in this case) are a damn pain. They caused me some problems if there more than a few of them per battle, and the numbers were even. They hack apart just about anything, even surrounded, and will usually do so until there are only 10 of them left. I sent in some of my poor Koitsenkos after them to help several other units to finish them off, and they came off rather badly. But other than that the Apache units are good, and I haven't even gotten Onde's Men and Mounted Thunder Braves yet, despite the 80+ battles and 20 provinces. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 60] Author : kitbogha Date : 12-13-2007 17:39 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Aimless Wanderer, You will find dealing with the Chichimec heavy infantry much easier when you have Onde's Men, and the Mounted Thunder Braves are a joy to have too. As i am sure you know you must look for Colonial Oppressors (nearest are the French to the East) and taking several stacks of troops, fight around 5 battles against them-this should give you your upgrades. The infantry you currently have are very lightweight. When you are just dealing with rebels they are fine but anyone of substance will just scythe through them.......on the other hand Medecine men are pretty handy for keeping up you warriors morale when placed behind you lines and set to Chanting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 61] Author : aimlesswanderer Date : 12-20-2007 03:14 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Yeah I know, I am exterminating the Frenchies ATM, and am eyeing up the Tarascans who now border me. With Apache units being so low upkeep I have lots of stacks running around, and am recruiting koitsenkos and the new thunder braves as fast as I can. Shouldn't be long before I get the rest of the advanced units. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 62] Author : kitbogha Date : 12-21-2007 15:41 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I don't think the Tarascans are too hectic, I marched straight through scattering them in the tribes' path like so many poor fools, they who thought they could stand up to the great Apache nation. Make sure you get producing armies and attack relentlessly with lots of stacks making their way to the front as your vanguard rips up their forward outposts and armies, as they are as numerous as grains of sand in the desert......the biggest problem with being the Apaches is that you do not have roads, so it is grindingly tedious moving men forward to replace your losses. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 63] Author : predaturd Date : 12-21-2007 19:45 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache this has been an interesting read here cant wait to make use of it in 4 days time :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 64] Author : Liberator Date : 12-28-2007 16:30 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache ; indian_hunters_1 Recruit 20 missile units & Capture 5 settlements monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType apachean and I_CompareCounter apachean_missile_recruited > 19 and I_CompareCounter apachean_settlements_captured > 4 add_events event counter indian_hunters_1 date 0 end_add_events if I_LocalFaction apachean historic_event apachean_hunters_1 factions { apachean, } end_if terminate_monitor end_monitor ; indian_hunters_2 Recruit 50 missile units & Capture 10 settlements monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType apachean and I_CompareCounter apachean_missile_recruited > 49 and I_CompareCounter apachean_settlements_captured > 9 add_events event counter indian_hunters_2 date 0 end_add_events if I_LocalFaction apachean historic_event apachean_hunters_2 factions { apachean, } end_if terminate_monitor end_monitor ; indian_raiders_1 20 infantry units & Win 5 battles monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType apachean and I_CompareCounter apachean_infantry_recruited > 19 and I_CompareCounter apachean_settlements_captured > 9 add_events event counter indian_raiders_1 date 0 end_add_events if I_LocalFaction apachean historic_event apachean_raiders_1 factions { apachean, } end_if terminate_monitor end_monitor ; indian_raiders_2 Recruit 50 infantry units & Win 10 battles monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType apachean and I_CompareCounter apachean_infantry_recruited > 49 and I_CompareCounter apachean_settlements_captured > 14 add_events event counter indian_raiders_2 date 0 end_add_events if I_LocalFaction apachean historic_event apachean_raiders_2 factions { apachean, } end_if terminate_monitor end_monitor ; indian_horses_1 Defeat an army with cavalry 10 times monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType apachean and I_CompareCounter apachean_cavalry_killed > 1 add_events event counter indian_horses_1 date 0 end_add_events if I_LocalFaction apachean historic_event apachean_cavalry_1 factions { apachean, } end_if terminate_monitor end_monitor ; indian_horses_2 Defeat an army with cavalry 20 times monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType apachean and I_CompareCounter apachean_cavalry_killed > 2 add_events event counter indian_horses_2 date 0 end_add_events if I_LocalFaction apachean historic_event apachean_cavalry_2 factions { apachean, } end_if terminate_monitor end_monitor ; indian_horses_3 Defeat an army with cavalry 30 times monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType apachean and I_CompareCounter apachean_cavalry_killed > 3 add_events event counter indian_horses_3 date 0 end_add_events if I_LocalFaction apachean historic_event apachean_cavalry_3 factions { apachean, } end_if terminate_monitor end_monitor ; indian_guns_1 Defeat an army with gunpowder 10 times monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType apachean and I_CompareCounter apachean_gunpowder_killed > 1 add_events event counter indian_guns_1 date 0 end_add_events if I_LocalFaction apachean historic_event apachean_guns_1 factions { apachean, } end_if terminate_monitor end_monitor ; indian_guns_2 Defeat an army with gunpowder 20 times monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType apachean and I_CompareCounter apachean_gunpowder_killed > 2 add_events event counter indian_guns_2 date 0 end_add_events if I_LocalFaction apachean historic_event apachean_guns_2 factions { apachean, } end_if terminate_monitor end_monitor -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 65] Author : russveld Date : 01-05-2008 01:17 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache i play with the apaches on hotseat with a friend all the time and basicly, spam dog soldiers and scout or medicine men. war path asap. use the warpath to hire mercs. and take every town from the capital to the atlantic. ally with the civ just soulh because they will act as a barrier aginst the mesos. prepare for the french. once u get the mtb rush each ciz one by one. i finished turn 83 and only my buddy was left.(we had not faught before) and we battled over the the map until turn 117 were i took his capital and all but 3 cities then made him my vassal. :thrasher: :drummer: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 66] Author : Der Kuenstler Date : 02-01-2008 12:00 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Hello - new to this forum and the Americas Campaign and have some :help: quick newbie questions related to income: 1) Do the Apaches ever get any units that are the equivalent of merchants that can trade resources? 2) Do they ever make use of fishing villages or build canoes? 3) I got trade agreements with two factions in one turn but on the next turn my trade income was exactly the same - 513 - why is that? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 67] Author : kitbogha Date : 02-02-2008 15:07 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Hello - new to this forum and the Americas Campaign and have some :help: quick newbie questions related to income: 1) Do the Apaches ever get any units that are the equivalent of merchants that can trade resources? 2) Do they ever make use of fishing villages or build canoes? 3) I got trade agreements with two factions in one turn but on the next turn my trade income was exactly the same - 513 - why is that? 1) No. Rather annoying, with better trade options you could do fantastically well with the Apaches. You may note they can't build mines etc either. 2) No. Frustrating, but probably historically accurate, they were never renowned seafarers. It would be cool to lauch raids up rivers, though... 3) Don't know. Maybe it is only there for diplomacy reasons, ie makes your standing better with other factions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 68] Author : Der Kuenstler Date : 02-02-2008 22:50 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache OK thanks for the info - my trade income did go up eventually.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 69] Author : Der Kuenstler Date : 02-09-2008 05:59 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache OK another question: How the heck do the wisemen gain experience? My startup wiseman died and all of my new ones just sit there with one star - even when I leave them in territories with low percentage of great spirit. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 70] Author : kitbogha Date : 02-16-2008 15:06 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache OK another question: How the heck do the wisemen gain experience? My startup wiseman died and all of my new ones just sit there with one star - even when I leave them in territories with low percentage of great spirit. I found the same thing happened to me. Frustrating. Especially when you need them to call a warpath so you can recruit infantry cannon fodder for attacks on the mesoamericans (Aztecs etc) who have lots of heavy infantry (a good way of taking them on is to use expendable mercenaries to pin them while your superior missile troops take them out).....but they can't do this until they are at a higher level. Can't think of any advice but if you find a way, do share it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 71] Author : Enron Date : 06-27-2008 16:19 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Just started my Apache campaign and have taken all but 3 of the Rebs easternmost settlements. The French have gotten 1 of them so it looks like the warpath is about to begin. I have a full stack moving towards the french settlement picking up troops along the way. Question: Of I have read everything correctly so far once I take the french town I will have to destroy it then rebuild it right?:help: I am also moving the majority of my troops south the begin the campaign in that region to create a bottleneck against troops moving north. The spanish have a settlement in the southeast side of mexico and appear to be moving north into my lands. Looks like fresh meat is on the menu for tonight furnished by spain.:laugh4: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 72] Author : Sheogorath Date : 08-11-2008 01:18 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache A little experimentation has led me to the following conclusion: Thunderbraves pwn. I had an army with eight of them. Four in the center, and two on each flank, angled slightly so that they formed a sort of concave shape towards the enemy (the French, in this case). The French army was one of those standard 'pop up in the middle of nowhere with a few hundred men' affairs, mostly consisting of musketeers, pikemen, and a couple units of cavalry. First thing, I thought those cavalry were going to destroy me. And, indeed, I considered running for it when they charged. But lo, the concentrated fire of four thunderbrave units reduced BOTH of them to five men by the time they made contact, after which they routed. The remaining French units were slaughtered in equally horriffic fashion. I lost twenty men because a unit of thunderbraves briefly 'forgot' I had the 'skirmishing' option on. Sometimes I think the AI just doesn't like it when you win a battle with no casualties >_> My current defensive strategy is the ol' 'harass to death' standby which worked wonders against any phalanx-based faction in RTW. Mounted thunderbraves are best, but regular mounted braves work quite fine as well. Basically, all you do is gather up a stack of 4-6 mounted units and send it to your border. On contact with the enemy, shoot them up, then, once you run out of ammo, retreat. Simple, yet effective. Although on some of the maps the AI seems to have trouble remembering to skirmish properly <_< Just repeat the same process over and over again. When an enemy unit routes, rush in and use melee to slaughter the remainder. You can take out a full stack in a few battles if you do it right. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 73] Author : mrx47 Date : 08-25-2008 14:31 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I noticed that with a war member you cant build watch towers in certain provinces, while the same war member already build several watch towers in others. For example i cant build any watch towers in Coahuila. Im wondering why -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 74] Author : benadin Date : 08-28-2008 19:58 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache After completing New Spain's campaign, I turned "to the other side", so I played Apache's one. Economy. First I noticed that provinces are really short on population, consequently even cheap buildings quickly used all the money from the treasury. Moreover unit support is cheap, but not the unit production! Taking the fact, that each battle costs you lives and units, the money is a bit issue at the beginning. War paths help a lot, however you can't make them very often. What really brings you money is taking your south neighbour's settlements. Taking a >10k population city brings you a lot of gold from Raid and from further farming. Good I never experienced high riot level. At the beginning you are really short on infantry units. You can hire ones during warpaths, but they will eat all your money for the support after warpath is over. Facing European factions All negative experiences I earned playing for New Spain has proved themselves here: 1. Musketeers are of a little use - they have long recharge speed and are slow. After all they are easily bitten with your apachean scouts which can hide aside and then run for them after main forces are in battle. 2. Bombards can't hit the target from the long distance - it misses most of the time. Canon units are easily bitten with the same scout ones. 3. Cavalry need to get involved in a melee, where they are not that strong as when they are charging. Then get them killed with surrounding archers and braves. The best is to get cavalry charge in a rough terrain (hills, trees, buildings), so charge effect is minimized. 4. Crossbows need to be attacked by melee units, - they loose hand to hand combats. 5. The most challenge remains for the heavy armored infantry. Envelope them with your infantry having medicine men chanting behind and braves throwing morale killer spears. In my case they simply route after I got won with all other units and applied described technique. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 75] Author : Bilgediver Date : 06-21-2009 13:30 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Right now I've pretty much conqered all but the last few settlements, I'm competing with the Mayans to see who finishes first (I actually got a message saying the Mayans were about to reach their winning objectives!) All European factions have been destroyed, I destroyed the French, the Mayans must've destroyed the English and the Spanish. They destroyed the Aztecs too, they didn't last long. What's weird is that the Tarascans replaced the Aztecs. I easily forayed into Chichimec territory. I sent armies down the west coast of Mexico and got in through the first back door into Tarascan Territory. But now am having a HELL of a time fighting the Tarascans. I'm going for the copout, and playing like I'm the Sarmations/Scythians/Armenians by using full stacks of Mounted Thunder Braves. Even Onde's men are overrated, as they just get wiped out due to their low armor. The problem is the Tarascans due to their bonus keep fielding stacks and stacks of huge ass armies (like the other Roman Factions in RTW), and almost all of them are archers (And they keep trying to get into shooting wars, they just can't learn that they can't compete against muskets). The Chichimecs are destroyed, I'm 2 cities away from winning but now I'm worried about fighting aginst the Mayans. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 76] Author : Maltz Date : 07-10-2009 05:07 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Playing on VH/VH, won the long campaign before turn 30 (23 or 24). Here are the moves: (1) First, call Warpath on the most north-eastern settlement. Split armies into 2. One heads east and one heads west. Collect all possible settlements. Here are ways to dodge desertion in case you need to capture something not really on the straight path: - Have a second general to accompany the army. Share your starting units, so both generals are Warpath-ed. Use a single general unit and hired mercenaries to capture a not-on-the-path settlement. - End your turn in a city. - Desertion only happens starting on the 2nd turn of the Warpath-ed general. Therefore, when you almost complete the goal, feel free to have everyone join the Warpath and just go crazy to capture some more settlements! Your eastern army can go all the way to Florida. You should be able to capture the Warpath target on turn 10. Then cover Florida and starts building troops. French comes on turn 20. You should be fine for this wave, since you can call another Warpath by turn 20. (2) During your North America run, get the +5000 or +2000 with best units bonus from the elders. You can change your capitals freely so the best unit award always land on the proper place. (3) Your southern friends and rivals, except Spain (you can't sail), can be taken care by assassins. Before that, just ally with everyone to sell trades & maps, etc. (4) Use your 2nd Warpath to sweep half meso-America to reach 30 settlements! Unfortunately, the requirement for horse and guns are still very far away - you win too fast! :) The best bow and spear units rock, though! (Heavy + Fast infantry!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 77] Author : O'Hea Date : 07-18-2009 07:35 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I'm really enjoying the Aztecs. Since they don't have the heavy troops to just muscle through a fight, ambush and maneuver is more important than with any other faction I've played. Also, 12 missile attack for an archer is just crazy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 78] Author : Tai-Pan Date : 01-26-2010 06:19 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I got Medieval II and kingdoms for Christmas and have been playing through the campaigns. Playing the Apache was absolutely the least amount of fun I have ever had with any Total War campaign. I must have been doing something wrong. I quickly conquered everything north of the Chichimec, and then started south. After defeating the French, my armies were composed of mounted thunder braves, with an occaisional group of thunder braves defending a town. All of the battles were pretty much the same. I put my MTB's in skirmish mode, they shot the enemy until they ran out of ammo, then the enemy was pretty much weak enough that I could pick them off with cavalry charges. It was a successful tactic 9 times out of 10, but very very repetetive and it took a long time to complete battles. I never got to the point where I could recruit Koitsenko's or Onde's men, and pretty much everything else got slaughtered against the Mesoamericans. Even if I had one unit that wasn't mounted (most times a general) the enemy would walk through hellfire to get to them. I lost a ton of generals that way and then my MTB's had to finish. I might try the Americas campaign again and give the Apache another shot, but the America campaign kinda seems like it might not be so great. There is not a whole lot of unit or technology development, other than the Apaches trying to steal horses and guns. It seems like the same armies always meeting, and I don't really like only having about three different kinds of factions to fight (Indians, Mesoamericans, Europeans) Anyone else share my feelings about America? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 79] Author : marcotuliu Date : 11-09-2010 15:29 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache I still didnt understood if with the apaches we take the gunpowder and horses (in my opinion essencial) from battles or taking settlements... Also do they have to have troops with horses and gunpowder in order to get this technologies? or in case of city attacks, there should be buildings capable of doing them? Thank you for this great forum. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 80] Author : Extreme Total War Date : 07-03-2012 01:33 Title : Re: Americas Campaign: Apache Dear fellow War Chiefs, Recently I started playing this campaign after a long time of nog playing any Total War game. Back then I only played the Aztecs and Spain as far as I can remember so this was quite a challenge. While playing I overcame most difficulties that arise while playing with the Apache tribes. After defeating the French and dealing with the Chichimeca tribes (quite similar to the Apache faction), I started to built my assault against the Tlaxcalans Tribes. When I launched my attack, invading multiple lands with 2 stacks, I soon found out that the Tarascans had even more! Not familiar with more then an opponent able to bring 10+ stacks to the battlefield I fell back after some huge losses and minor wins. However, with replenishing my armies (so xp remains) and building even extra ones, I slowly fought my way back on the west side of Northern America. On the east side I quickly massacred New Spain which had also 10 stacks, although those were quite easy to deal with using enormous missle forces. By turn 80 I finally got myself to the point where I encountered the Aztecs and Taxaclans. Around turn 95 the Tarascans where whipe from the map (destroyed) and I declared war to the Aztecs and Taxaclans. This proved to be an even harder challange. The Aztecs, seemingly only using missle units, lucky where also fighting the Mayans and so where the Taxaclans. At turn 104 I won the Campaign (by far the fastest in turns) but my purpose was Total War and Total Domination! So I decided to continue playing and conquer all regions. At that point the Aztecs as well as the Taxaclans where getting sandwiched by my forces and the Mayans. Around turn 120 the Aztecs were destroyed, leaving the Taxaclans as solo faction for functioning as buffer between the Apache Tribes (me) and Mayans. At turn 130, thinking I was ready, finally declared war to the last remaining faction The Mayans (after the England faction leader (with no settlement) tragically died by a Mayans' assassin). And so the nightmare begon!! Constantly streaming full stack armies to the frontline I hardly managed to hold the lines. Over 50+ stack total where spotted by my scouts and probably more on their way. Lets skip to turn 175. After hours and hours of gameplay I managed to conquer 4 regions after sometimes switching hands up to 12 times. It's almost looked like a weird version of Stalingrad, fight for every centimeter. Even though I got these 4 regions (I still had around 30 to go) The Mayans had multiple advantages: 1. They had, as far as I could tell, infinite money, meaning -------- a. No succesfull bribes for my diplomats -------- b. Endless recruiting and replenishing 2. Their melee units are highly superior, especially in the auto-resolve 3. They seem only to make melee units (heavy infantery) Luckely I had: 1. Mounted Thunder Braves 2. Also endless money 3. War Path My disadvantages: 1. After capturing a settlement you need to build all from scratch 2. Weak units (low armour) 3. Very long reinforments time. The mayans can move 3 regions in 1 turn while I had to wait 2-7 turns for units to move across a single region. This was the hardest of them all. Especially compared with number 1. I'm currently at turn 185 and lost 1 region. Every turn takes soooo long lol. QUESTION: Does anyone has any tips that are usefull against the Mayans (from Apache point of view). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from The Org (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb) at 03-28-2024 20:55.