Medieval Total Realism: Age of Ambition

@ Randarkmaan: I know this mod is for Realism, but how far are you going to let this go, I mean, to give the player also some influence on how to develop his faction, what tranformations take place. Do you mean that it would replace the system over time, or could replace it, so to let the player choose what he wants transformed, as what the system Kataphraktoi said represents...


And about the intro, how are we going to handle that?
Are we going to:
- Write it as historian does his/her little speech, giving a summary of the whole or almost the entire history of his/her faction, including the future, but off course not far off (eg, continue on talking about his/her faction during the Renaissance...)
or
- Write it as being a part of history, like talking about your own people, about the past, from the tales from your parents etc. and thus not knowing what'll come, but show what courses can be pursued.

I ask this to everyone, because if some of us do the first and some others do the second (and maybe a third party finds yet some other way) it won't be that nice to present.

Kataphraktoi, you said about IRC, I don't have that, but can arrange it, and maybe we can discuss it there...

Edit: @ Randarkmaan, maybe you could make a sketch for wraithdt, or describe how the castle looks like. I can imagine the view from one of those castles is magnificent.

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Originally Posted by Cadmus

And about the intro, how are we going to handle that?

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I have to admit a preference for the little pep-talks you get when choosing your factions in Europa Barbarorum, such as this one for the Swebóz: https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_sweboz.html

Something like that is both fun to write and read.

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Well, it's not an Almohad castle but one 'passive' loading screen you could have could be the Moorish castle at Guadalest, I was there yesterday, it was counted as impregnable until it was taken by some Spanish guy with a large army.

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Awsome!!!! For loading screens, I would imagine the Al-Hamma (the red) with a sunrise in the backround (or sunset). Seeing as it is arguably the most beautiful piece of arcetecture the moors created.

Well, Guadalest is the most visited village in Spain, so it should not be hard to find pictures of the castle known as L'Alcazaiba or Sant Josep, sadly though I forgot to bring a camera...

here's some pictures I found on the web

http://refugioderosa.webcindario.com.../guadalest.jpg
Here's a view of the top the castle is located on, you can see some walls and a tower or two

http://www.lascatalinas.co.uk/editor...-Guadalest.jpg
Here's the view, amazing how clear that river is...

http://www.romanvirdi.com/spain2002/2_11025.jpg
The castle at the top of the mountain, I can see why they thought it impregnable...

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@ Randarkmaan: I know this mod is for Realism, but how far are you going to let this go, I mean, to give the player also some influence on how to develop his faction, what tranformations take place. Do you mean that it would replace the system over time, or could replace it, so to let the player choose what he wants transformed, as what the system Kataphraktoi said represents...

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Yeah maybe I should just do it so that the player does not have any control over it when it comes to implementing the new Ayyubid army. But the Fatimid units should not disappear all at once it should still be gradually, for an example having an event show up when the Armenian troops were disbanded after their pro-Fatimid uprising.
I have been wondering what is the best way to implement Saladin's takeover of Egypt? I mean earlier in the thread you talked about making the Egyptian characters heretics because the Fatimids were shias, yes it does make sense but how would you simulate Saladin changing the country's religion to Sunni Islam, would it be possible to change the religion of the characters? What I think would have been easier is if you just had Islam be one religion... and not represent the Fatimid Shias as Heretics.
Also it would be a little weird with Saladin's take over, since they did actually occupy Egypt, wouldn't it be a little weird having a message pop up and say that you have been occupied without even having seen an army?

EDIT: Had to put i another picture of the castle since it doesen't seem to work...

what about the good ole civil war pop up like in MTW1. You get an event, about Ayyubids with Saladin leading them. You can choose to join the rebels or stay and perish :D:laugh4:

OK guys i've been thinking. Our aim is to make Medieval 2 Totalwar as realistic as possible both visually and in game, without however limiting the gameplay. Thus assuming i must ask you, will we appease the crowds making lots of units( like in other RTW mods), or will we make a very generalized, but historically accurate list of units?

Like say, the Savoyards were pretty reknown for their infantry, namely the ragazzini. They were men-at-arms often fighting in slightly "lighter" armour(brigadine, coat-of-plates, and rarely single breastplates). So does that make them a special unit? Or we just give them a +1 valour when recruiting them.

I would go for the second option, because:
A) it will make the work on units easier, and will thus help us focus on possible gameplay limits caused by M2TW.
B) It brings in balance! So instead of having an already overpowered France or Ottoman Empire with 40 different units! We will have a nice balance with each nation having 2/3 special units.

Would do you think?

im more for different units for each faction.
altho this may take a bit longer i think the game will be more unique and the 2 upsides i see right away are a very unique feel to each faction, we are able to show the historical differences between the differences of warriors of all the countries in europe, and although small, they will be appreciated, and last we will be able to have stats of 2 swordsman units having one being better on the other depending on how famous that faction was for that type of warrior (this doesnt include uniqu units like say sipahi, etc)
for ex. german chivalric knights can be stronger than spanish ones because hgistoricaly they were more renouned and feared (im not saying they were, just an example)
that way germans can have slightly better 'generic' (even tho its only the same in name) infantry or say poland can have slightly stronger cavalry becuz it was historicaly famous for its cavalry dependance.

Well, I dont really agree on giving bonuses to units because they were more 'renowned' or more 'dependant' on a unit. If they were more renowned for good reason (better training, better armour etc) then of course they should get bonuses. But if its more of a cultural thing (a certain type of soldier having more status perhaps) or something even less concrete that wouldnt necessarily impact their actual abilities. Also, if a faction was more dependant on say cavalry, then I would advocate adjusting cost/upkeep values accordingly, as it would tend to lead to armies more heavily reliant on that type of unit.

I do agree that we want as much diversity as possible though. Base generic units are good, and are probably what we should focus on first. But I think a strong, identifiable roster of units for each faction greatly helps for immersion and gameplay.

thats wat i ment, training, not realy cultural benefits.

In that case, I agree with you :helloo:

With modifications that claim to represent historical accuracy there are two things to consider:

1) Historical accuracy as we know it is determined by what has happened already and hence the history as we know it which we try to represent accurately
2) But because games like MTW2 also allow the player to CHANGE history, history as we know it, might not have happened at all, so what we are doing then is assuming things still remain the same...

So its a very fine line we tread in balancing historical accuracy and historical plausibility.

In fact, by claiming historical accuracy, we also claim and assume certain things happened even if a player with his faction achieves things his faction did not historically achieve.

But our policy is to remain as close to what historically happened despite being able to change history, however, there are circumstances, where historically plausible, to allow a "departure" from history as know it. But that will be discussed a long way in the future.

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Well, I dont really agree on giving bonuses to units because they were more 'renowned' or more 'dependant' on a unit. If they were more renowned for good reason (better training, better armour etc) then of course they should get bonuses. But if its more of a cultural thing (a certain type of soldier having more status perhaps) or something even less concrete that wouldnt necessarily impact their actual abilities. Also, if a faction was more dependant on say cavalry, then I would advocate adjusting cost/upkeep values accordingly, as it would tend to lead to armies more heavily reliant on that type of unit.

I do agree that we want as much diversity as possible though. Base generic units are good, and are probably what we should focus on first. But I think a strong, identifiable roster of units for each faction greatly helps for immersion and gameplay.

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Combat ability will largely be determined by:

1) Regional considerations - does a particular region specialise in particular units HISTORICALLY
2) Training length - how does it take to recruit a unit
3) Armour - can also benefit from bonuses from blacksmiths, etc, etc
4) Discipline
5) Morale - can also benefit from buildings which increase morale of soldiers in the region (if possible in MTW2)
6) Weapons - same as armour
7) Experience - accumulated on battlefield

So any "famous" military units will have rely on these characteristics alone

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OK guys i've been thinking. Our aim is to make Medieval 2 Totalwar as realistic as possible both visually and in game, without however limiting the gameplay. Thus assuming i must ask you, will we appease the crowds making lots of units( like in other RTW mods), or will we make a very generalized, but historically accurate list of units?

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If we make lots of units, it will be not to appease the crowds but rather to give a diverse character and environment to the game. I have in mind the independent factions (ie rebels). Each independent faction will have a uniqueness about their army (within historical means of course). However, because a unit is "unique" it doesn't necessarily mean a military advantage. Its part of the "sight and sounds" of MTR:AOA.

And remember, some units get "upgraded" or "evolve" so to speak, so we must keep that in mind too. Although, that will be hard for nomadic factions and also for Byzantium...but thats another matter.

I agree that some factions should not have a large roster of "special" units. But I think once we finish our research, we can decide on how to limit the number of special units.

And even if a faction does have more access to "special" units, they'll think carefully before creating an army of elites because of cost. We have to make players carefully think about army composition and cost through our scripting.

Thats why I suggested a warehouse for the Byzantines as part of logistics. It increases ur extractive ability of revenue to support either a large army, or expensive soldiers, but it makes the population very unhappy...so one must consider that supporting and recruiting large numbers of elites will create a civilian effect too.

As for the intro:
The introduction is an introduction to the faction in the year 1066. No need to write a history from 1066 - 1453 (or 1492). The intro sets the scene for the faction, but it can also suggests what historically happens in the future, or what can be changed in the future too. Its ur choice how u want to present it, but as long as it presents the faction's situation in 1066.

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Hmmm... Would it be possible for me to do something like this but instead of having 2 systems (or whatever) the Fatimids would slowly along with their buildings transform their army into a more 'Turkish' style army (ie. Saladin's/the Ayyubids' army) instead of suddenly just replacing all the Fatimid units with Ayyubid units. If this is possible (building certain buildings in the tech tree replaces all units of a kind with another unit) then I think it could work well as the Fatimid military system was not just replaced over night it was disbanded over a number of years in preference of the more 'Turkish' Ayyubid army. The same could be done with the Ayyubids being taken over by the Mamluks.
I could also make use of the two system thing for the Fatimids though because from the mid to the late 11th century the level of skill demanded by their soldiers rised steadily, this led to the disbanding of most militas and made the Fatimids uncapable of recruiting a large force and had to rely on small well trained forces instead. You could have it so that in order to train the expensive elite units in a province you would no longer be able to train less effective but much less expensive troops in a province.

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I think that the 2 systems should be kept for all factions. But in terms of transitioning from Fatimids to Ayyubids to Mamelukes, I think it will require both a combination of buildings, religion and scripting. Lets say that the Fatimids are made heretics, that means they can recruit particular units...but once they convert to Sunni Islam, then they can have access to other particular units too. As for transitioning from the Ayyubids to the Mamelukes, its different from the Fats to the Ayyubs since the Mamelukes were Ayyubid soldiers in the first place. I suppose we could script a rebellion and from that point on allow the player access to more unique Mameluke units even if the rebellion of the Mamelukes were successful or not.

Phew, hope that clears everything.

And yes, everyone should get IRC.

If you do log on, make sure ur nick has MTR at the end of it to indicate team status.

Oh Yes, and here's my repeated plea to everyone, think of gameplay features, think of things u want to see, eg. wonders, if any...small things and big things!!! And we'll discuss it on IRC #rometotalrealism on quakenet

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Originally Posted by kataphraktoi

The Orthodox Christians were much more pragmatic, or should I say, the Byzantine Emperors. Basil II himself downgraded the Patriarchate of Ochrid to an Archbishopric and made it Autonomous from the Patriarch of Constantinople.

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Ochrid was always Archbishopry and never Patriarchat. Orthodox Serbs (Bishopry of Ras and Bishopry of Prizren were under Archbishop of Ochrid until 1219).


And do you need some good photographies about Middle East as I have over 4 000 pictures from last year when pilgrims were in Israel? Actually I have friend who was there in pilgrim (in organisation of Serbian Orhodox Church) and he photographed everything in Israel.

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Originally Posted by Ringeck

Send me a PM about the Kosovo Polje thing, I don't think this thread should contain too much historical debate.

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OK. Just to find link. And here is the link http://www.deremilitari.org/resource...les/emmert.htm

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Originally Posted by Ringeck

I believe the term means that the head archbishop does not report to any higher-ranking bishop and that the church is ruled by itself, still remaining in communion with the rest of orthodoxy but is self-governing? Is there a rank called autonomous?

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No. It is autocephalous church. It could be also Metropolitain and Patriarch as a head of Church.

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Originally Posted by Ringeck

I was using autonomous as it is commonly used in the english language for organizations - self-governing, not subject to outside authority. My only good treatice on serbian medieval history is Durhams old 1989 book, so there might be some holes in my knowledge

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Autocephaly and autonomy are different terms. I don't like wiki but they good explained.
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Autocephaly
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Autonomy

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Originally Posted by Ringeck

(as I suspect there is in your medieval scandinavian history :book: ).

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Explain this as I don't understand what you mean.

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

No. It is autocephalous church. It could be also Metropolitain and Patriarch as a head of Church.
Autocephaly and autonomy are different terms. I don't like wiki but they good explained.

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Ok, that cleared things up (and nobody likes wikipedia). Well, in that case yes, I was referring to autocephaly.

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

OK. Just to find link. And here is the link http://www.deremilitari.org/resource...les/emmert.htm

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Interesting article. It definitely muddles the waters as to what actually happened. I guess you'd still agree that the battle of Kosovo Polje has a rather central position in the serbian modern mind, no matter who won?

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

Explain this as I don't understand what you mean.

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I was simply saying that I am not by any means an expert on serbian history, which is only natural since I specialized in northern european history. I guessed the same applied to you "the other way around". ~:)

Hi guys just a bit of housekeeping.

Any research data please reserve for the template and don't post it here. Not because of we're trying to hide anything, we're trying to streamline and keep things clean in this forum concerning information and content. :2thumbsup:

I hope everyone gets onto IRC for discussion, server is quakenet and its at #rometotalrealism

Make sure to add MTR on ur name to indicate team status

what about the good ole civil war pop up like in MTW1. You get an event, about Ayyubids with Saladin leading them. You can choose to join the rebels or stay and perish :D

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OK guys i've been thinking. Our aim is to make Medieval 2 Totalwar as realistic as possible both visually and in game, without however limiting the gameplay. Thus assuming i must ask you, will we appease the crowds making lots of units( like in other RTW mods), or will we make a very generalized, but historically accurate list of units?

Like say, the Savoyards were pretty reknown for their infantry, namely the ragazzini. They were men-at-arms often fighting in slightly "lighter" armour(brigadine, coat-of-plates, and rarely single breastplates). So does that make them a special unit? Or we just give them a +1 valour when recruiting them.

I would go for the second option, because:
A) it will make the work on units easier, and will thus help us focus on possible gameplay limits caused by M2TW.
B) It brings in balance! So instead of having an already overpowered France or Ottoman Empire with 40 different units! We will have a nice balance with each nation having 2/3 special units.

Would do you think?

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Diversity of units will be to make the game interesting and also to make independent factions interesting too (within historical limits) so that conquering rebels will be an interesting experience.

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And about the intro, how are we going to handle that?
Are we going to:
- Write it as historian does his/her little speech, giving a summary of the whole or almost the entire history of his/her faction, including the future, but off course not far off (eg, continue on talking about his/her faction during the Renaissance...)
or
- Write it as being a part of history, like talking about your own people, about the past, from the tales from your parents etc. and thus not knowing what'll come, but show what courses can be pursued.

I ask this to everyone, because if some of us do the first and some others do the second (and maybe a third party finds yet some other way) it won't be that nice to present.

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I give u guys creative license for that as long as it meets the minimum requirements:

1) As long as it addresses the faction's situation in 1066
2) As long as its interesting :2thumbsup:

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Hmmm... Would it be possible for me to do something like this but instead of having 2 systems (or whatever) the Fatimids would slowly along with their buildings transform their army into a more 'Turkish' style army (ie. Saladin's/the Ayyubids' army) instead of suddenly just replacing all the Fatimid units with Ayyubid units. If this is possible (building certain buildings in the tech tree replaces all units of a kind with another unit) then I think it could work well as the Fatimid military system was not just replaced over night it was disbanded over a number of years in preference of the more 'Turkish' Ayyubid army. The same could be done with the Ayyubids being taken over by the Mamluks.
I could also make use of the two system thing for the Fatimids though because from the mid to the late 11th century the level of skill demanded by their soldiers rised steadily, this led to the disbanding of most militas and made the Fatimids uncapable of recruiting a large force and had to rely on small well trained forces instead. You could have it so that in order to train the expensive elite units in a province you would no longer be able to train less effective but much less expensive troops in a province.

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I'll discuss my ideas on IRC :2thumbsup:

Hope everyone is well...I'm hungry. Good nite.

@kataphraktoi

I have suprise for you in e-mail.:book:

I'm just wondering if someone could tell me how I use on of those IRCs, since I've never used one. Would be nice to know for when I get home...

It's not that difficult to use, at least the basics, with which I got off pretty quickly.
Just run the program, then you have to fill in your 'name" and 'e-mail', then your username (which Kataphraktoi specified as having MTR in it) and then as server (you'll see the tab) quakenet.
When it connects to the server, you will have to enter a channel, type #rometotalrealism, although they directed me through also to #medievaltotalrealism.
Hope it works, unless I forgot a step.

Btw, when is everyone online, because we all live in the different corners of the world, as is my impression, so..., when it's noon here, Kataphraktoi has already hit the sack, and in the US, they are just awaking....

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Originally Posted by kataphraktoi

The CB option deepens a province's bureacratic structure with emphasis on revenue extraction but in the process allows for wider options for public amenities and services; influences economic structure predominantly cash and trade based; ability to construct monuments and other structures that reflect imperial power and other structures which allow a deeply bureacratic character to take place.

In a nutshell:
Limited choice of military units but they are elite and professional soldiery. Good structure for revenue extraction and allows develop of a city's urban character through amenities, services, monuments and other civilian structures. This favours the Emperor's power and prestige. Tned to improve civic pride, improve wealth, sophistication and knowledge.

Types of units:
Imperial Tagmata
Foreign Mercenaries
Naval forces
Spies
Court Spies
Patriarchs
Archbishops
Bishops
Priests
Monks
Ascetics
Diplomats
Assasins
Vigiles - police forces, not the Tagmatic unit.

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It can be only one Patriarch in Church. There is no plural. And he shouldn’t be recruit able agent as this has nothing with reality.

What you mean by “Ascetics”?

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

What you mean by “Ascetics”?

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Probably some old felows singing behind the main lines providing morale boost.

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It can be only one Patriarch in Church. There is no plural. And he shouldn’t be recruit able agent as this has nothing with reality.

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Lol, I used plural to indicate that you can train ur own Patriarchs for Constantinople, Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria. However, a player would need to play be house rules and not crazy training patriarchs for every province but limit themselves to training them when they conquer areas of the patriachal sees...plus I got ur email :2thumbsup:

By ascetics I mean hermits, stylites and other men who punished themselves through deprivation to prove their holiness.

I think the Muslims will have Pirs and Shaikhs or Sufis.....perhaps

I'll leave myself logged in as kataMTR I may or may not be actively online, but I'll be online nonetheless. Leave a message to on a separate window by clicking kataMTR and typing what u want. Actually, I hope everyone stays logged in at #medievaltotalrealism whether they chat or not just so its easier to send messages :2thumbsup:

and please for the love of Pope Shenouda!! include "MTR" aat the end of ur chosen nick.

So if ur Cadmus, then its CadmusMTR or watever..

Hey! just wanted to say that research is going well:book: I'm really enjoying it. Everyone: keep up the good work!

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Hey! just wanted to say that research is going well I'm really enjoying it. Everyone: keep up the good work!

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Ah.....sweet words indeed..."enjoy" :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by kataphraktoi

So if ur Cadmus, then its CadmusMTR or watever..

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I believe that was a hint.... already changed.

Latest version of the template and final version....I hope

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...chTemplate.doc

Good luck y'all

Hi 2 all I have heard that wedieval 2 :total war is coming out soon so i searched it on google and i found this.i didnt have time to read all posts but i already read a large part of them.i think that what u guys do here is amaizing and i'd like to help u though i have some questions about this project.who is the project manager or smething like that?i'd lik to talk to him because im realy eager to join this project.

Hey guys, would just like to tell you that I'm home and that I've received a few books I ordered to help my research, will probably be working mostly in the weekends (School's started and I'm trying to take it seriosly this year), and be logged on to IRC then.
But what I really posted here for was the fact that in one of the books there is a picture showing medieval Muslim male clothing, which I thought I'd post here since it would be of interest to all the Muslim researchers... if you'd like to see the descriptions of the plates I can PM it to you...

https://img147.imageshack.us/img147/...hingaf6.th.jpg

There's also a plate showing both Arab and Turkish horse-harness... as well as one showing archery equipment, bow construction and draw and release techniques.

I was browsing through my old M:TW modding files and came across some work I made for a mod. Perhaps it is usefull for you, mostly 15th century though. (the greens and purples are because of M:TWs faction colouring)

Mercenary pikemen
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...ry_pikemen.gif
Burgundian man-at-arms
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...undian_maa.gif
English royal bodyguard
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...lish_royal.gif
French royal bodyguard
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...ench_royal.gif
Italian man-at-arms
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...ian_armour.gif
Swiss armoured pikeman
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...ed_pikemen.gif
Swiss halberdier
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...halberdier.gif
Voulgier
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...c_voulgier.gif
14th century English longbowman
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/u...wip_archer.gif

And a 360 degree unit preview :tongue2:
http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mt...e_voulgier.avi

Cheers,
DJ

man this game you are making is based on medieval 2 total war isnt it?

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Originally Posted by Victor_cel_mare

Hi 2 all I have heard that wedieval 2 :total war is coming out soon so i searched it on google and i found this.i didnt have time to read all posts but i already read a large part of them.i think that what u guys do here is amaizing and i'd like to help u though i have some questions about this project.who is the project manager or smething like that?i'd lik to talk to him because im realy eager to join this project.

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Hello neighbour from Banat and Romania.:balloon2:

1. Read the first post as you will find everything what you need to know about this project.

2. Project leader is Achilles, but temporary project leader is kataphraktoi.

3. So, contact kataphraktoi.

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Originally Posted by Victor_cel_mare

man this game you are making is based on medieval 2 total war isnt it?

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Yes, that's right.:2thumbsup: