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Morality
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I discourage firearms ownership among my friends who drink, have another substance abuse problem, are hotheads, seem prone to depression. I advise anyone with children to keep firearms either out of the house or locked away like Fort Knox.
There are already laws in America involving drinking and firearms. I would say don't drink. How many crimes and accidents of all natures are alcohol-related? More children drown in the bathtub than die from accidental gunshot wounds. We need to teach responsibility, for with every right comes a responsibility. It is my right to own a gun; it is my responsibility to make sure that it functions, and that I know how to operate it safely. Also we need to teach them morality, which has been removed from the schools. If we tell them that it is wrong to do something, such as kill people, we should tell them why it is wrong. It is my right to vote; it is my responsibility to know what the candidates stand for. Especially relevant today as it is a primary election day. And please, stop talking about democracy. Democracy leads to anarchy, where everybody's rights get trampled on, and the fickle opinions of the mob hold sway. The US is a constitutional republic, governed by the rule of law, ignored as it is nowadays.
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
Vincent Butler
There are already laws in America involving drinking and firearms. I would say don't drink. How many crimes and accidents of all natures are alcohol-related? More children drown in the bathtub than die from accidental gunshot wounds. We need to teach responsibility, for with every right comes a responsibility. It is my right to own a gun; it is my responsibility to make sure that it functions, and that I know how to operate it safely. Also we need to teach them morality, which has been removed from the schools. If we tell them that it is wrong to do something, such as kill people, we should tell them why it is wrong. It is my right to vote; it is my responsibility to know what the candidates stand for. Especially relevant today as it is a primary election day. And please, stop talking about democracy. Democracy leads to anarchy, where everybody's rights get trampled on, and the fickle opinions of the mob hold sway. The US is a constitutional republic, governed by the rule of law, ignored as it is nowadays.
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams
How do you teach morality?
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
a completely inoffensive name
How do you teach morality?
Easy:
* Don't do to others what you wouldnt like people to do to you.
* Do to others what you would want them to do to you...
it's quite simple, really.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
Kadagar_AV
Easy:
* Don't do to others what you wouldnt like people to do to you.
* Do to others what you would want them to do to you...
it's quite simple, really.
Downside is, someone in the second category forget about the first and it can really bite back hard.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
Tiaexz
Downside is, someone in the second category forget about the first and it can really bite back hard.
That's why we invented absolutely awesome stuff like laws, state-monopoly-violence and prisons...
Also the international court of Haag, it's only that scumbag nations don't adhere to it. With scumbag nations I mean USA, Israel, and other warmongering nations that doesn't seem to make even a decade without war.
Silly scumbag nations.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
Kadagar_AV
Easy:
* Don't do to others what you wouldnt like people to do to you.
* Do to others what you would want them to do to you...
it's quite simple, really.
This is terrible logic. What if I am really into public flogging........
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
a completely inoffensive name
How do you teach morality?
Ethics lessons, behavioural training, 'learning by doing', internationalism, etc. There are many ways of teaching morality.
Including brainwashing, of course.
Also, as for the post ACIN replied to:
In order for an agent to take an action, it needs both the opportunity AND the motivation to take that action. Democracy has few safeguards against mob rule and anarchy; sure. There is plenty of opportunity to oppress within a democracy. But as Tocqueville argued, democracy also removes the motivation to oppress. That's why democracy simply will not decend into mob rule and anarchy.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
a completely inoffensive name
This is terrible logic. What if I am really into public flogging........
Then you'll have to pay for the service like everyone else. Stilettos and leather gear are extra.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
Teaching morality requires absolutes. For me, that is the Bible. A lot of those things, do unto others as you would have done to you, and such like, are biblical principals. The problem is, with the evolutionary rotgut pervading society, there are no absolutes. It is taught that man is just an animal. Well, no wonder we see school shootings. It shows that people understand what they have been taught. And so what? If evolution is true, then what is wrong with shooting somebody on a whim? Evolution is based on survival of the fittest. There are no true rights in an evolutionary society, for there is no higher power to bestow those rights.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
Vincent Butler
Teaching morality requires absolutes.
Nonsense.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
Then what makes wrong wrong, and what makes right right? If I decide that I want to commit some horrible crime, who is to say what I am doing is wrong? You? Somebody else? What makes that other person the authority to say what is right? They are human, just like me. For true rights, you need somebody above the human realm, who tells us what is right. That is God. Why does every society, no matter how primitive, worship something? Worship is ingrained in us as humans.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
Vincent Butler
Then what makes wrong wrong, and what makes right right?
Lrn2philosophy.
Have some linkys.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
???? And who is to say the philosophers are right? They are just humans after all, too. You need an ultimate authority. Look at what happened in America when we kicked God out of the schools. Violent crime, teen pregnancy, drug use all skyrocketed. Used to be nobody thought anything if a kid brought a gun to school. Nowadays it is not a good sign.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
Vincent Butler
And who is to say the philosophers are right?
....And who is to say you are right? Who is to say this god of yours is right?
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Originally Posted by
Vincent Butler
You need an ultimate authority.
lol, no. This is PRATT.
You may need an ultimate authority. We do not.
Also, you are indeed correct that everyone was nice back when God was a part of American schools.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
You are spot on Vincent. Atheism simply cannot be reconciled with absolute morals. It is totally intellectually bankrupt to claim to be an atheist and to hold moral values.
Lest anyone get offended, I am not saying atheists have no morality. I am saying that their moral views are inconsistent with their atheism.
BTW, I hope you'll be sticking around because I could do with some backup here!
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
It is totally intellectually bankrupt to claim to be an atheist and to hold moral values.
Rubbish.
For example, I believe free sex to be moral. My reasoning? It brings enjoyment and pleasure to all. Sex is also a very healthy activity. Christian morals say free sex is wrong. This approach brings no pleasure and makes everyone stuck up wussies. Atheist morals are supreme.
That you don't understand what atheism is about has no effect on atheists being moral.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
Rubbish. For example, I believe free sex to be moral. My reasoning?....
That's just typical moral relativism. I might believe that free sex with dogs is moral, or selling cocaine is moral (after all, both the dealer and the user get exactly what they want). That doesn't make it moral. Moral relativism is total trash.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
rvg
That's just typical moral relativism. I might believe that free sex with dogs is moral, or selling cocaine is moral (after all, both the dealer and the user get exactly what they want). That doesn't make it moral. Moral relativism is total trash.
It most certainly is not moral relativism. I do not claim that other views on sexuality are just as moral as this. In fact, I claim that some of them are immoral.
Sex with dogs and cocaine dealings does not follow the same logic as my example, by the way. The dog has no way to express consent, and the addict is not of sound mind(thus no consent there either). No consent, no mutual pleasure.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
Sex with dogs and cocaine dealings does not follow the same logic as my example, by the way. The dog has no way to express consent.
Sure it does. Twice a year and in a very visual way.
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...and the addict is not of sound mind(thus no consent there either). No consent, no mutual pleasure.
Two things:
1. You don't get to define what counts as consent from another person.
2. There are plenty of cocaine users who aren't addicts by any stretch of imagination (such as 1st time users).
You are a moral relativist. To each their own, but that's what your are. Whether that's a positive thing or a negative is largely a personal preference, but that doesn't subtract from the fact that you are a classic moral relativist.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
rvg
1. You don't get to define what counts as consent from another person.
Yup, I do.
Why shouldn't I get to?
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
Why shouldn't I get to?
Because you're not them.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
rvg
Because you're not them.
So?
The ability to make rational decisions is not subjective quality. It can, in fact, only be determined by an objective observer according to a set definition.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
Are we really doing this? Christ, there are infants who know the no morals without god argument is dumb.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
Greyblades
Are we really doing this? Christ, there are infants who know the no morals without god argument is dumb.
Hence my extremely brief replies ~;)
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
The thing is, we are just people. With God, well, since he created everything he gets to decide what is right. By his very nature what he does is always just. I know there are people who claim to be atheists, who will say God does not exist. Sure, I take His existence by faith, the Bible says that we walk by faith, not by sight. They take it by faith that there is no God. Well, who determines for them what is right and wrong? If they determine that themselves, then they are a god. If the government, or whoever else, decides that, then they have become a god. Everybody has a god or gods of one kind or another, they may not realize it. HoreTore, in this case, by defining what, in essence, you believe to be right, you, as a fallible human, become your own god. The question boils down to, who determines what is right? I certainly would not leave it to men. Look at what happens when men attempt to seize that power, they ALWAYS abuse it.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
Since there is no god, your own morals are decided by men as well.
The rest of your post is simply assuming that everyone behaves and believes in a similar way that you do. This is false.
You may have a god. I do not.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
Apparently I am sinning by eating this bacon sandwich, but it is so tasty.
But what tickles me is how some say there is a god, yet a major faith like Hinduism is the oldest major religion yet they have had morals even before there were even jews. What of the pagan faiths of druidism and others like Wotan or even the Greek gods?
Even if you could argue the existence of a 'god' or multiple, whatever they are, you could still be barking totally up the wrong tree with your morality.
And the existence of morality doesn't prove there is a higher being either.
The point of view we are missing: do 'believers' only not commit a 'sin' because 'god' told them not to? That is the scarey thought, that without the threat of divine retribution, they would do all the manner of unspeakable things. Maybe that is where the concern is, as HoreTore put out there with psychological projection, they only 'behave' as they think will be punished for it.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
Rubbish.
For example, I believe free sex to be moral. My reasoning? It brings enjoyment and pleasure to all. Sex is also a very healthy activity. Christian morals say free sex is wrong. This approach brings no pleasure and makes everyone stuck up wussies. Atheist morals are supreme.
What are these morals of yours based on?
I have God as a universal arbiter. How can you claim in the absolute rightness of your morals without such a figure?
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Originally Posted by
Tiaexz
Apparently I am sinning by eating this bacon sandwich, but it is so tasty.
But what tickles me is how some say there is a god, yet a major faith like Hinduism is the oldest major religion yet they have had morals even before there were even jews. What of the pagan faiths of druidism and others like Wotan or even the Greek gods?
Even if you could argue the existence of a 'god' or multiple, whatever they are, you could still be barking totally up the wrong tree with your morality.
Could go all day with this...
Is your point that Judeo-Christian morals are wrong, or that the very concept of absolute morality is wrong?
Also, the Bible addresses the points you raise against Christianity - namely, that people follow other moral systems, and that these differ to some degree for the Christian one. On your first point, the Bible says that people have an inherent sense of morality which they know by nature:
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained therein; these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves. Which shew forth the works of the law written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another." (Romans 2: 14-15)
As for your second point, these other moral systems came to differ from the true law as revealed in the Bible, because of a process of degeneration which began when they corrupted their worship of God:
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. For that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for he has showed it to them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and godhead, so that they are without excuse. For when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. Who changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to bird, and to fourfooted beasts, and to creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them over to uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and who worshipped and served the creature more than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." (Romans 1: 18-25)
There are a lot of very relevant themes in that passage right there. Not least the glorification of the created above the creator, which is so central to the supposedly moral beliefs of todays humanists. And from a historical viewpoint as well, it documents how the corrupted pagan and polytheist religions like Hinduism and Greek paganism emerged from a degeneration of the original monotheism of mankind.
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Re: Speaking of Israel...
Here we go again.
1. The Christian ten commandments are more or less human rules. Lots of cultures go by them, and went by them before Christianity.
2. If you need the Christian God to be moral, how come other cultures and people have been able to reach morality without the Christian God around. Ghandi comes to mind.
3.Rather unimportant but just an amusing sidenote... Teen pregnancy is more common in more biblical states and surroundings... Just saying..