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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
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Originally Posted by
Husar
Might be a strong hint that the current problems could be related to such an outside factor.
Or that the current rulers are incompetent.
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Why don't you just say "Everybody be reasonable and nice already!"
They are in successful countries. That is: they don't do corruption and take up arms against the state for spurious reasons.
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How are they going to pay their armies if France shuts off their access to their money?
Solution: don't send money to France, keep it yourself and pay the military. That's my personal method, too; I never send any money to France.
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A lot of these armies are also not too well trained, have low morela and/or are busy fighting some warlords.
Driving out foreigners tends to be easy peasy. Just turning the locals against them goes a long way.
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Add to that that the government may be corrupt but is not easily changed by an unarmed population, the rebels are hardly better or even much worse, food is really hard to access (often on purpose as hunger is used as a weapon) and then some Euroweenie comes and says "man up, be reasonable"....yeah, because it's easy to say from a comfy chair...
And now you just listed up a lot of internal elements causing problems. That takes us back to where I started off.
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Can you prove that it is the fault of the refugees? Can you prove that the countries are democratic enough that the citizens are to blame? And if not, can you prove that the citizens are not trying hard enough to change this?
I am not blocking their citizenship because they haven't done enough, but because letting them have it is not going to fix much, and may destabilise Europe itself. What I would instead like European politicians to do, is to make an intelligent effort on contributing to fix these countries. If France is as evil as you claim, then telling France to stop being evil would be a good start.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Viking, I don't think you understand what I'm commenting about in your posts.
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If it is realistic for the inhabitants to create a functioning country, then they are failing as long as they aren't actually doing that. Blaming outside forces for their lack of success is then a distraction since they could have succeeded, anyway.
This statement is so vague as to have no meaning. I'll take the liberty of putting a better-specified argument in your mouth, which is just that African countries from which refugees/illegal immigrants into Europe commonly emigrate have some endemic ecological, structural, and cultural problems that contribute to the pressure to emigrate (e.g. violence, corruption, shortage of work, food, other resources, etc.); it is not a complete explanation toward accounting for these problems to say that international political or economic interaction is what simply contributes toward or perpetuates these problems or their conditions.
Further taking into account that everything interacts and covaries, we see that the world situation is dynamic and no institution or people anywhere act or exist in a vacuum distinct from others such that some parties could unilaterally shift certain policies to produce an immediate and dramatic effect on the aforementioned issues (besides, you know, OWG :wink:).
Put that way, I would agree, since it applies as well to Western countries and whatever problems you may identify in them.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
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Originally Posted by
Viking
Or that the current rulers are incompetent.
Very much possible, and why is that so?
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Originally Posted by
Viking
They are in successful countries. That is: they don't do corruption and take up arms against the state for spurious reasons.
Is it reasonable to stick to and even propagate a system that directly aids or at least profits from the instability of other societies and then wonder why these other societies are doing so bad?
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Originally Posted by
Viking
Solution: don't send money to France, keep it yourself and pay the military. That's my personal method, too; I never send any money to France.
Did you even read the article? How many of the refugees sent their money to France?
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Originally Posted by
Viking
Driving out foreigners tends to be easy peasy. Just turning the locals against them goes a long way.
Yes, North Korea is only doing so well because it drove out all the foreigners.
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Originally Posted by
Viking
And now you just listed up a lot of internal elements causing problems. That takes us back to where I started off.
You keep ignoring that a lot of these internal problems only came to be through external influences.
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Originally Posted by
Viking
I am not blocking their citizenship because they haven't done enough, but because letting them have it is not going to fix much, and may destabilise Europe itself. What I would instead like European politicians to do, is to make an intelligent effort on contributing to fix these countries. If France is as evil as you claim, then telling France to stop being evil would be a good start.
And why then do you seemingly blame the refugees for the problems in their countries?
I agree that Europe cannot take all the refugees but you sounded as though you were saying:
"Well, it's got nothing to do with us, let's seal our borders and wait until they fix their own mess."
If that was a misunderstanding then please elaborate.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
"Will Marxists ever change their rhetorics of "traitors yielding the national property to international capitalists" and "down with those we don't like"?" Pétain was not a traitor?
Perhaps he was. But you apply the same logics that was used in the USSR after WWII: if you stayed on the occupied (by Germans) territory you are a traitor; if you worked on the territories occupied by Germans you are a traitor; if you were a soldier and surrendered you are a traitor. Such "traitors" were then put into GULAG camps. Evidently, Marxists enjoy dividing the world into black and white.
But the first part of your comment on the hateful government referred not to Petain, but to the current French one. Having governments down is another thing Marxists enjoy. Why are you then so negative about Ukrainians throwing down their government? This is exactly in your line of modus operandi.
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
"The USSR story didn't teach them anything." Apparently not as they created EU following the same way.
Whatever you say. I hope you can support your claim by examples of:
1. Freedom of speech stifled in the EU.
2. Religion almost banned, churches destroyed and priests imprisoned in the EU.
3. One party ruling the EU.
4. One ideology granted constitutional supremacy in the EU.
5. Accomodation given out free by the state to all citizens of the EU.
6. Education and medical care free for all citizens of the EU.
7. Going abroad almost at zero level for the citizens of EU.
Otherwise your statement is empty.
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
Sarmatian, where are you? Come and save us!! Thread derailing alert!!!
Now to the point.
1. This news is one year old, so you might as well remind us that Queen Anne is dead.
2. There are other officials of "foreign origin" in Ukraine that were given a governmental job and Ukrainian citizenship: the minister of Economy and Trade (he is Lithuanian), the governor of Odesa region (Saakashvili), the deputy of the Interior minister (a Georgean), the head of Ukrnafta (a Brit) and many others on lower levels (like deputies of Saakashvili - from Georgia and Russia). And they, unlike Yaresko, are not of Ukrainian origin and don't speak Ukrainian.
3. I totally approve such approach since locals are prone to be engaged by some "magnate" to promote his interests or to be personally interested (through having their own business) in directing policies of a governmental body according to their schemes.
4. What does all of this have to do with traitors?
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
“But you apply the same logics that was used in the USSR after WWII” I love your obsession for USSR.
I didn’t know that USSR and Lenin was in favour of Free-Market Economy, which is an important part of my sentence, but there you go…
As usual you didn’t read the text.
Now, you are the one using “URSS” communist rhetoric, mixing-up “foreign powers” and “international capitalists”. Not really what I wrote, but your interpretation(s) of texts is always revealing…
“Having governments down is another thing Marxists enjoy” I NEW it!!! USA and EU are full of Marxists. How many governments theses two have put down now? And of course, in Ukraine, you were so respectful of democracy that you put down your elected President, you, as much as I remember, proudly telling as you supported them… All these Nazi are Marxists in disguise, I am telling you!!!
“Why are you then so negative about Ukrainians throwing down their government?” Hey, I am against Nazi, remember? I was all in favour, and I said it, of anti-corruption, fight for jobs and protection of pension demonstrations. But a Nazi-extreme right coup political coup, followed by attempt of political and ethnic cleansing? Without my approval, not that it really matter what I think anyway…
“This is exactly in your line of modus operandi.” Where did I even suggest this? That is pure and blatant propaganda. My line of action is within a democratic revolution by votes.
“Otherwise your statement is empty.” You should really pay attention of what people wrote, and not what you think people wrote: same way is not same thing. Or do you deny the denying of democratic referendum results by the EU? The fact that decisions are taken by un-elected bodies?
“This news is one year old” And? It is not true? Putin annexed Crimea more than one year ago, and you are still up-set about it.
“What does all of this have to do with traitors?” Nothing, two different lines of approach. Can you not multi-task and not able to deal with more than one subject? This one was more how EU and US put their pawns in place…
“locals are prone to be engaged by some "magnate" to promote his interests or to be personally interested (through having their own business) in directing policies of a governmental body according to their schemes.” Yeap, that is called “lobbying” in Western Countries, “Corruption” in the rest of the world.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
I didn’t know that USSR and Lenin was in favour of Free-Market Economy, which is an important part of my sentence, but there you go…
As usual you didn’t read the text.
As usual, you don't write what you claim you did. Here's your post:
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"The USSR story didn't teach them anything." Apparently not as they created EU following the same way. Look, you just had Natalie Jaresko, now your Finance Minister, got a Ukrainian National Identity the day before to get the job. Before she was USanian and worked for the State Department.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/natali...15-3?r=US&IR=T
Show me in it "the important part of your sentence" which mentions ANY economy.
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
“Having governments down is another thing Marxists enjoy” I NEW it!!! USA and EU are full of Marxists. How many governments theses two have put down now? And of course, in Ukraine, you were so respectful of democracy that you put down your elected President, you, as much as I remember, proudly telling as you supported them… All these Nazi are Marxists in disguise, I am telling you!!!
It only corroborates my statement that Marxists (and you proudly count yourself as one) are not different from the rest of the scum you are so fond of denouncing. What's next in your agenda? Advocating let's-seize-all-property-and-split-it-even- between-all-citizens approach?
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
“Why are you then so negative about Ukrainians throwing down their government?” Hey, I am against Nazi, remember? I was all in favour, and I said it, of anti-corruption, fight for jobs and protection of pension demonstrations. But a Nazi-extreme right coup political coup, followed by attempt of political and ethnic cleansing?
Here we go in circles. You know perfectly well that only a small part of Maidaners were nazis, yet you call it "a nazi coup". It is the same as calling the October revolution of 1917 "a jewish coup" (or do you consider it such?). You know that all those you call nazis were ousted in the next parliamentary elections. Is it the way coupists act after "violently seizing the power in the country"? Yet it stays a nazi coup. I asked you to give me examples of ethnic cleansing (or attempts of them) - you failed to provide any.
So you blindly follow propaganda cliches (invented in Moscow) and refuse to own up to the truth. Well, propaganda-fighter, let me quote yourself "your interpretation(s) of texts is always revealing…"
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
“This is exactly in your line of modus operandi.” Where did I even suggest this? That is pure and blatant propaganda. My line of action is within a democratic revolution by votes.
OK. Let's read what you wrote:
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Now, I am more in the mood to scrap all this EU free-market dictatorship and start again if possible, but first we have to take French traitor governments down.
The words "to scrap" and "to take the government down" are very different (to put it mildly) from "a democratic revolution by votes".
So you should be more precise in wording your thoughts if you want others to read them correctly. Not the first time I say that.
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
“Otherwise your statement is empty.” You should really pay attention of what people wrote, and not what you think people wrote: same way is not same thing. Or do you deny the denying of democratic referendum results by the EU? The fact that decisions are taken by un-elected bodies?
One similar thing you found doesn't justify the overall comparison you offered. You were against likening Putin and Hitler grounded on any statements or actions of those two, yet you pull the same trick yourself. Now let me quote myself (from another thread): not for naught did you study the art of propaganda. And Gandalf:
Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves.
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
“This news is one year old” And? It is not true? Putin annexed Crimea more than one year ago, and you are still up-set about it.
Ok. Let's now bring up all events of the past someone is upset about.
This year it is 600 years since the French lost the battle of Agincourt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt
You will have to explain, though, how all this contributes to this discussion of traitors.
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Originally Posted by
Brenus
“locals are prone to be engaged by some "magnate" to promote his interests or to be personally interested (through having their own business) in directing policies of a governmental body according to their schemes.” Yeap, that is called “lobbying” in Western Countries, “Corruption” in the rest of the world.
Seeing the corruption in Ukraine I will gladly swap it for what you term as lobbying.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
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Originally Posted by
Montmorency
Viking, I don't think you understand what I'm commenting about in your posts.
This statement is so vague as to have no meaning. I'll take the liberty of putting a better-specified argument in your mouth, which is just that African countries from which refugees/illegal immigrants into Europe commonly emigrate have some endemic ecological, structural, and cultural problems that contribute to the pressure to emigrate (e.g. violence, corruption, shortage of work, food, other resources, etc.); it is not a complete explanation toward accounting for these problems to say that international political or economic interaction is what simply contributes toward or perpetuates these problems or their conditions.
Further taking into account that everything interacts and covaries, we see that the world situation is dynamic and no institution or people anywhere act or exist in a vacuum distinct from others such that some parties could unilaterally shift certain policies to produce an immediate and dramatic effect on the aforementioned issues (besides, you know, OWG :wink:).
Put that way, I would agree, since it applies as well to Western countries and whatever problems you may identify in them.
The point is the principle that can be summarised with this analogy: if your goal is to cross a street, sufficiently strong wind can make it difficult, but as long as it isn't too strong, you can actually cross it. Even if you could write an entire doctoral thesis on how much harder it is to cross it with the wind in place, as long as you can cross it, you can.
It's not about saying that people are lazy or stupid, but that if they all co-operated, they could do it. If a large enough group realised this, they could actually succeed in changing the country for the better (as per the the 'realistic' criterion) (and as social media penetrates deeper and deeper into Africa, this also becomes a more realistic scenario).
History is full of examples of systems that were torn down by the people living under it; both peacefully and not so peacefully. To talk about complexity and covariance is to miss the point.
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Originally Posted by
Husar
Very much possible, and why is that so?
For example because some people in that country did not have the foresight to prevent these people from getting into power.
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Is it reasonable to stick to and even propagate a system that directly aids or at least profits from the instability of other societies and then wonder why these other societies are doing so bad?
Huh?
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Did you even read the article? How many of the refugees sent their money to France?
I was talking about the state.
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Yes, North Korea is only doing so well because it drove out all the foreigners.
No one said all foreigners should be expelled. Look to Cuba and Venezuela for more successful examples of countries who are in opposition to the "imperialists".
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You keep ignoring that a lot of these internal problems only came to be through external influences.
Nope, I showed how these problems of external origin can be fixed or weakened. The fact that they are not is because the country's leadership is incompetent; they either can't or don't handle the problems they should be handling, and are more interested in enriching themselves and their families. They aren't failing because they face foreign demons that are too strong, but because they are hardly trying at all.
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And why then do you seemingly blame the refugees for the problems in their countries?
I agree that Europe cannot take all the refugees but you sounded as though you were saying:
"Well, it's got nothing to do with us, let's seal our borders and wait until they fix their own mess."
If that was a misunderstanding then please elaborate
I don't blame them, but it is their country and their mess, and therefore it makes sense that they should attempt to fix it, per common sense. It is their countrymen that are killing each other and taking bribes, not French raid parties pillaging and burning villages.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
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The point is the principle that can be summarised with this analogy: if your goal is to cross a street, sufficiently strong wind can make it difficult, but as long as it isn't too strong, you can actually cross it. Even if you could write an entire doctoral thesis on how much harder it is to cross it with the wind in place, as long as you can cross it, you can.
It's not about saying that people are lazy or stupid, but that if they all co-operated, they could do it. If a large enough group realised this, they could actually succeed in changing the country for the better (as per the the 'realistic' criterion) (and as social media penetrates deeper and deeper into Africa, this also becomes a more realistic scenario).
I can't tell if this is gibberish or just outlandishly-naive.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
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Originally Posted by
Montmorency
I can't tell if this is gibberish or just outlandishly-naive.
It's straight forward logic, and why you don't get the message is beyond me. Methinks you are reading things into my posts that are not there.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
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Originally Posted by
Viking
For example because some people in that country did not have the foresight to prevent these people from getting into power.
Who in that country do you expect to show such foresight? The 95% who have neither running water nor an education?
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Originally Posted by
Viking
Huh?
Western companies and sometimes even NGOs contribute to the problems in these countries significantly.
There are oil companies but also diamond and other raw material companies which help enricht the elite and do not mind that none of the profits go to the poor. This does not help since the elites can hire more guards and soldiers with that money to keep the poor in their place. Then you have cheap food imports from Europe and the US which ruin the local farmers since they cannot compete. If they want to buy the technology that would allow them to compete, they have to take up huge loans that put them into financial trouble for decades for a lot of reasons. Then you have european fishing boats fishing away all the fish in front of the african coasts, putting the fishermen out of work as well. And it does not stop there. In the end it comes down to you just saying that it is their fault for not developing the technologies to compete in time. But if you say that you might as well go full darwinism and advocate that we sink all the boats we can find.
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Originally Posted by
Viking
I was talking about the state.
If you had read the article, you might have known that France gets to choose who is the state there and that the money was already in France by the time they became "independent".
And even if they could, it's like saying Greece could also just stop paying its debt and everything will be fine and the sun will shine.
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Originally Posted by
Viking
No one said all foreigners should be expelled. Look to Cuba and Venezuela for more successful examples of countries who are in opposition to the "imperialists".
Oh yes, Venezuela, super successful: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-30710014
And Cuba never had any refugees flee to richer countries... :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by
Viking
Nope, I showed how these problems of external origin can be fixed or weakened. The fact that they are not is because the country's leadership is incompetent; they either can't or don't handle the problems they should be handling, and are more interested in enriching themselves and their families. They aren't failing because they face foreign demons that are too strong, but because they are hardly trying at all.
So what you want to see is european-backed governments with european-supplied weapons slaughter a bunch of half-starved grandfathers and women because they try to overthrow the government? Or are you perhaps rooting for the rebels who killed their sons and daughters in front of their grandchildren whom they then recruited as child soldiers at age 5 to continue their mostly futile resistance to the government? Who of these is not trying hard enough in your opinion?
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Originally Posted by
Viking
I don't blame them, but it is their country and their mess, and therefore it makes sense that they should attempt to fix it, per common sense. It is their countrymen that are killing each other and taking bribes, not French raid parties pillaging and burning villages.
You know, if I hire a martial arts expert to pin you to the ground, then come and tell you that I want to enslave you and you say it's not fair, I can also reply: "Look, I don't blame you, but it's your life, and the mess you are in, it is only common sense that you have to beat this martial arts expert, not my problem. I just paid this guy to take care of MY needs."
You see, it's easy to say that when he has already pinned you to the ground and you are completely helpless.
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Originally Posted by
Viking
It's straight forward logic, and why you don't get the message is beyond me. Methinks you are reading things into my posts that are not there.
It sounds like the ramblings of an armchair general who has no idea of the realities on the battlefield. Would you be ready to die (yes, permanently, no reload) tomorrow if your government decided to make a turn for the worse?
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
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Originally Posted by
Husar
Who in that country do you expect to show such foresight? The 95% who have neither running water nor an education?
For example. People uniting in great numbers could become an unstoppable force. Not just for purely political reasons, but also to co-operate over harvest, trade etc. You don't need education to come up with this, basic logic and imagination will suffice.
Sometimes, it might be physically hard because there are large distances involved, farms and other types of work that cannot be abandoned, and so on. Other times, it's easier - like for city populations where smaller distances are involved. Cf. Cairo in 2011.
It's even easier for people with power; like wealthy people, or people in the military. But such people often don't care as long as their positions aren't threatened, or they have much to gain from it.
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In the end it comes down to you just saying that it is their fault for not developing the technologies to compete in time. But if you say that you might as well go full darwinism and advocate that we sink all the boats we can find.
You don't need modern technology to have a functioning country in the first place. If poor countries co-operated and invested in technology and education, they could become relatively self-sufficient. Many poor countries have mineral resources etc. that many rich countries can only dream of.
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If you had read the article, you might have known that France gets to choose who is the state there and that the money was already in France by the time they became "independent".
That makes no sense. Revenues for the state are generated continuously, and people with the military behind them decides who are in charge, unless France would dear to go for a full-scale invasion, which could still be won, either directly on indirectly. But it sounds like an unlikely scenario, anyway.
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And even if they could, it's like saying Greece could also just stop paying its debt and everything will be fine and the sun will shine.
Greece has very high living standards compared to the countries we are talking about here, and through things like these more dependent on good international relations. A country where a majority of the population cannot even afford a TV has much less of a reason to maintain good international relations. What are they going to lose out on? Even more loans? Access to Spanish beach resorts?
So you are saying that Cuba and Venezuela are no better places than the average poor African country?
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So what you want to see is european-backed governments with european-supplied weapons slaughter a bunch of half-starved grandfathers and women because they try to overthrow the government? Or are you perhaps rooting for the rebels who killed their sons and daughters in front of their grandchildren whom they then recruited as child soldiers at age 5 to continue their mostly futile resistance to the government? Who of these is not trying hard enough in your opinion?
Huh? I was saying that governments in Africa weren't trying hard enough to neutralise negative foreign sources in case they still exists.
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You know, if I hire a martial arts expert to pin you to the ground, then come and tell you that I want to enslave you and you say it's not fair, I can also reply: "Look, I don't blame you, but it's your life, and the mess you are in, it is only common sense that you have to beat this martial arts expert, not my problem. I just paid this guy to take care of MY needs."
You see, it's easy to say that when he has already pinned you to the ground and you are completely helpless.
A supposed analogy for what exactly?
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It sounds like the ramblings of an armchair general who has no idea of the realities on the battlefield. Would you be ready to die (yes, permanently, no reload) tomorrow if your government decided to make a turn for the worse?
No, just a straw man on your side. Show me were I told people in poor countries to do anything at all. All I have actually done is to emphasise what is possible, and how.
If I had a lethal genetic disease, I could study medicine and put all my work hours and spare time into finding a cure before it's too late - or I could study little to nothing, live a generally leisurely and pleasant life and hope that someone else finds a cure. My choice.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
"This reminds me something... Ah, yes, Lenin in 1917. Will Marxists ever change their rhetorics of "traitors yielding the national property to international capitalists" and "down with those we don't like"? The USSR story didn't teach them anything."Show me in it "the important part of your sentence" which mentions ANY economy: Underline for you as you apparently suffer of short memory deficiency. As you can see, the part I highlight was part of one of your sentence, which contains my quote.
"It only corroborates my statement that Marxists (and you proudly count yourself as one) are not different from the rest of the scum you are so fond of denouncing. " Expect of course, one, you NEVER denounced nazism, well, generally speaking yes, but in reality no, as you ALWAYS find a good reason why Ukrainian Nazi are not THAT much nazi, and two, you still don't understand what Marxism is. Well, to be fair, you don't seem to understand what Nazism is either.
"Advocating let's-seize-all-property-and-split-it-even- between-all-citizens approach?" Still leaving in the 19th Century? You really should go about your USSR model...
The words "to scrap" and "to take the government down" are very different (to put it mildly) from "a democratic revolution by votes".
So you should be more precise in wording your thoughts if you want others to read them correctly. Not the first time I say that. That is because you still live in the 19th Century early Soviet Union state of mind, so you translate words in something they are not telling. Nothing I can do about it, sorry. I tried and failed miserably.
"You know perfectly well that only a small part of Maidaners were nazis, yet you call it "a nazi coup"." Ahhh.... Finally... We are making progress. So, you are now admitting part that you qualify of small (and I would agree with you) were Nazi. Good. Then, yes, the Coup itself was made by this minority, well organised and highly motivated. Like during the Russian Revolution you always refer to, 2 steps, and the active minority won. In case of Ukraine it went wrong for the Nazi as they failed their target (Former President escaped, and worst, Crimea lost and rebellion of the Russian Ukrainians (or Ukrainian Russian as you please) went berserk and started to fight back again real or perceive ethnic/cultural/political menaces.
As facts for claim of will of ethnic cleansing: Army Unit with 2 SS PZ Division Das Reich, ban of Russian language, and various demonstrations in you country. I linked all this, so go back to the links, provided by BBC and US channels.
You willingness to swallow your own propaganda had yest shown you are not ready for truth, but I am not complete out of hope for you, as you start to accept the Nazi thing. Still a lot of work to do, but I am sure you can do it. We are all behind you, you can do it...
"Ok. Let's now bring up all events of the past someone is upset about." :laugh4:. The English are upset about it. They lost the war...
Care to explain what you were trying to show? Because I fail to see it! :laugh4:
"You will have to explain, though, how all this contributes to this discussion of traitors." Err, it was about 1 year old doesn't make it untrue... Nothing to do with traitors... Hmmm, perhaps you are right. I really have to write in more simplistic way if I want to be understand by you...
"Seeing the corruption in Ukraine I will gladly swap it for what you term as lobbying" I wouldn't disagree with this one...:2thumbsup:
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
For example. People uniting in great numbers could become an unstoppable force. Not just for purely political reasons, but also to co-operate over harvest, trade etc. You don't need education to come up with this, basic logic and imagination will suffice.
Apart from the reasons you also gave, there are also other factors such as repression, through the army and spies etc. Remember Tiananmen square? The Czech attempts at breaking away from the soviet union? The Warsaw ghetto uprising?
Sometimes the government will just drive some tanks over your protest and for the common people this is dangerous.
On one hand such efforts can be detected and crushed early if the planning is huge and on the other hand if you plan small, there is a good chace that the others will be too afraid to join and it becomes even more likely that the government declares you a splinter group and drives some tanks over you.
Your ideas are based on the few cases where it worked but those are no guarantee whatsoever.
There were also many people in Tehran and in turkish cities, in both cases the protests were violently crushed because the rest of the population did not support them enough or was too afraid to join in.
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Originally Posted by
Viking
You don't need modern technology to have a functioning country in the first place. If poor countries co-operated and invested in technology and education, they could become relatively self-sufficient. Many poor countries have mineral resources etc. that many rich countries can only dream of.
Yes, and why do they not cooperate?
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Originally Posted by
Viking
That makes no sense. Revenues for the state are generated continuously, and people with the military behind them decides who are in charge, unless France would dear to go for a full-scale invasion, which could still be won, either directly on indirectly. But it sounds like an unlikely scenario, anyway.
According to you, the world/Africa as it is makes no sense if I understand you correctly, and yet it is this way. Why do you think that is the case?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
Greece has very high living standards compared to the countries we are talking about here, and through things like these more dependent on good international relations. A country where a majority of the population cannot even afford a TV has much less of a reason to maintain good international relations. What are they going to lose out on? Even more loans? Access to Spanish beach resorts?
Food?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
So you are saying that Cuba and Venezuela are no better places than the average poor African country?
No, you called them more successful examples, although I now see that that was only a relative statement. North Korea also has a higher living standard, some African countries may want to be more like that, surely that would also end the refugee crisis just like turning all these countries into DDRs would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
Huh? I was saying that governments in Africa weren't trying hard enough to neutralise negative foreign sources in case they still exists.
Maybe because they do not want to. So what do you recommend to the peasant whom you do not want to flee across the mediterranean?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
A supposed analogy for what exactly?
That when someone is keeping you down it may be hard to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
No, just a straw man on your side. Show me were I told people in poor countries to do anything at all. All I have actually done is to emphasise what is possible, and how.
You kept arguing that governments can be overthrown, if that was not you telling them what they should do instead of becoming refugees, then what is your point? Do you have an actual realistic solution or just would-be solutions that are obviously inferior solutions according to the hundreds of thousands of refugees wo would rather enter a rusty boat than try what you suggest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
If I had a lethal genetic disease, I could study medicine and put all my work hours and spare time into finding a cure before it's too late - or I could study little to nothing, live a generally leisurely and pleasant life and hope that someone else finds a cure. My choice.
How does that relate to refugees?
Let's get back to what you originally said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
Blaming problems in the third world on outside forces is typically a convenient scapegoat. The most troubled of these countries normally have corrupt governance and/or major warring ethnic groups. Fix that, and the exodus would subside.
According to you this should be done by the locals, yet hundreds of thousands of them would rather flee than fix their countries, why do you think that is?
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Don't worry the elites will be able to get rid of their mercenaries in favour of AI drones soon...
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Papewaio
Don't worry the elites will be able to get rid of their mercenaries in favour of AI drones soon...
Are you suggesting that the plotline of the Starwars Pre-Sequels will become true?
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
"This reminds me something... Ah, yes, Lenin in 1917. Will Marxists ever change their rhetorics of "traitors yielding the national property to international capitalists" and "down with those we don't like"? The USSR story didn't teach them anything."Show me in it "the important part of your sentence" which mentions ANY economy: Underline for you as you apparently suffer of short memory deficiency. As you can see, the part I highlight was part of one of your sentence, which contains my quote.
Ok, so you come down to calling names again. Now I can react in kind (if our chauvinist moderator doesn't stop me).
You evidently suffer of eyesight problems. Show me were ECONOMY is mentioned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
Expect of course, one, you NEVER denounced nazism, well, generally speaking yes, but in reality no, as you ALWAYS find a good reason why Ukrainian Nazi are not THAT much nazi, Well, to be fair, you don't seem to understand what Nazism is either.
You evidently don't either when you call Right Sector nazis while their chief spokesman and a parliamentary member is a Russian speaking Jew and they were and are financed by the chief Jew of Ukraine - Kolomoisky. So as Kolomoisky put it, either they are not nazis, or I'm not a Jew. Take a pick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
you still don't understand what Marxism is.
For 20 years I lived in the country which practised Marxism for 70 years, while you seem to know about it only from books. So I know what it is if such an ideology is implemented.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
"Advocating let's-seize-all-property-and-split-it-even- between-all-citizens approach?" Still leaving in the 19th Century? You really should go about your USSR model...
It was the corner stone of the ideology by which the USSR lived, and it may be an eye-opener for you, but Marxism IS a 19th century ideology, so the question is who's living back then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
The words "to scrap" and "to take the government down" are very different (to put it mildly) from "a democratic revolution by votes".
So you should be more precise in wording your thoughts if you want others to read them correctly. Not the first time I say that. That is because you still live in the 19th Century early Soviet Union state of mind, so you translate words in something they are not telling. Nothing I can do about it, sorry. I tried and failed miserably.
Being miserable at working with language has always been one of your greatest weaknesses. You don't have to be sorry about deficiencies you can't overcome. A one-legged person shouldn't apologize that he can't run 100 meters like Hussain Bolt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
"You know perfectly well that only a small part of Maidaners were nazis, yet you call it "a nazi coup"." Ahhh.... Finally... We are making progress. So, you are now admitting part that you qualify of small (and I would agree with you) were Nazi. Good. Then, yes, the Coup itself was made by this minority, well organised and highly motivated. Like during the Russian Revolution you always refer to, 2 steps, and the active minority won. In case of Ukraine it went wrong for the Nazi as they failed their target (Former President escaped, and worst, Crimea lost and rebellion of the Russian Ukrainians (or Ukrainian Russian as you please) went berserk and started to fight back again real or perceive ethnic/cultural/political menaces.
It seems that short (and perhaps long as well) memory deficiency is all yours.
I never denied that there were nazis on Maidan, but I did and do deny that it was them who were the only combatants and only them "ousted" Yanukovych. If you want to believe in what you believe, go ahead.
And if they were real nazis, they would never merge into background after they had come to power.
You again try to present the events as an ethnic and/or linguistic conflict, and neither is correct. Ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers were as numerous as Ukrainians and Ukrainian speakers on Maidan, 60% of ATO soldiers now are Russian-speakers, some predominantly Russian-speaking regions (Mykolayiv and Dnipropetrovsk) show a higher percentage of those who were mobilized than some "nationalistic" regions (Ternopil). So you still stay a prisoner of the stereotypes and misconceptions you adopted and are going by with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
As facts for claim of will of ethnic cleansing: Army Unit with 2 SS PZ Division Das Reich, ban of Russian language, and various demonstrations in you country. I linked all this, so go back to the links, provided by BBC and US channels.
So wearing emblems and marching and the ban that was repealed a day later equal ethnic cleansing? Now I see how qualified you were in Bosnia to detect ethnic cleansings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
"Ok. Let's now bring up all events of the past someone is upset about." :laugh4:. The English are upset about it. They lost the war...
Care to explain what you were trying to show? Because I fail to see it! :laugh4:
I followed your way: I gave an event of the past that should have signified something and without an explanation of its relation to the topic of traitors posted it. It seems your way of proving something, so I did prove something, though what I proved is known to you only.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
Apart from the reasons you also gave, there are also other factors such as repression, through the army and spies etc. Remember Tiananmen square? The Czech attempts at breaking away from the soviet union? The Warsaw ghetto uprising?
Sometimes the government will just drive some tanks over your protest and for the common people this is dangerous.
On one hand such efforts can be detected and crushed early if the planning is huge and on the other hand if you plan small, there is a good chace that the others will be too afraid to join and it becomes even more likely that the government declares you a splinter group and drives some tanks over you.
Your ideas are based on the few cases where it worked but those are no guarantee whatsoever.
There were also many people in Tehran and in turkish cities, in both cases the protests were violently crushed because the rest of the population did not support them enough or was too afraid to join in.
You can look at this in a larger context, however. For example, they could have started organising long before the countries got their independence.
They could even have started organising long before colonisation. After all, isn't natural to have a curiosity about what is beyond the world you know or experience? If they had obtained knowledge about the outside world, they would have learnt about potential dangers and new technological developments. Many countries in the west were united by force, so if neighbouring tribes did not agree to an alliance for safety, they could conquer them.
Quote:
Yes, and why do they not cooperate?
I am sure many do; we do even have the AU organisation. This is where things like dictators and corruption enter the frame.
Quote:
According to you, the world/Africa as it is makes no sense if I understand you correctly, and yet it is this way. Why do you think that is the case?
Alternatively, the article you linked to has misunderstood or misrepresents reality. If it largely hasn't, then fear of loosing privileges among the elites may be of importance.
That's definitely an area where African countries can be self-suficient with proper governance; especially with co-operation and trade between countries.
Quote:
No, you called them more successful examples, although I now see that that was only a relative statement. North Korea also has a higher living standard, some African countries may want to be more like that, surely that would also end the refugee crisis just like turning all these countries into DDRs would.
Remember that we have no reason assume that countries like Venezuela and Cuba are run as well as "anti-imperialist" countries realistically can be. I am pretty certain that is not the case. What they do demonstrate is that this is not an inherently worse option.
Quote:
Maybe because they do not want to. So what do you recommend to the peasant whom you do not want to flee across the mediterranean?
That's a separate topic. All I am saying is that
a) I do not welcome their arrival in large numbers
b) They can put in an effort to make their country better (but there is no guarantee it will work during their lifetimes)
Now, if wealthy countries like European ones consistently reject these people, the odds should increase for people in these countries to take action to fix their countries.
Quote:
That when someone is keeping you down it may be hard to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.
Name specific countries where this is a good analogy, and explain how.
Quote:
You kept arguing that governments can be overthrown, if that was not you telling them what they should do instead of becoming refugees, then what is your point? Do you have an actual realistic solution or just would-be solutions that are obviously inferior solutions according to the hundreds of thousands of refugees wo would rather enter a rusty boat than try what you suggest?
The point has always been to argue for what I posted earlier in this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
Blaming problems in the third world on outside forces is typically a convenient scapegoat. The most troubled of these countries normally have corrupt governance and/or major warring ethnic groups.
What people living in these countries chose to do is up to them. There isn't room for all of them to resettle here, that's for sure.
Quote:
How does that relate to refugees?
People living in these countries can choose the easy path (do no nothing to improve their country and focus purely on day-to-day tasks), or a hard path (work to fix their country alongside their daily tasks).
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
You can look at this in a larger context, however. For example, they could have started organising long before the countries got their independence.
They could even have started organising long before colonisation. After all, isn't natural to have a curiosity about what is beyond the world you know or experience? If they had obtained knowledge about the outside world, they would have learnt about potential dangers and new technological developments. Many countries in the west were united by force, so if neighbouring tribes did not agree to an alliance for safety, they could conquer them.
So they are "unnatural" because they did not develop in the same way Europeans did and it was their own fault that they got into this position?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
I am sure many do; we do even have the AU organisation. This is where things like dictators and corruption enter the frame.
And who keeps these things in place? The people who would rather run away from them than try to fight them alone?
And what could be done to change that? Just turn around the boats?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
Alternatively, the article you linked to has misunderstood or misrepresents reality. If it largely hasn't, then fear of loosing privileges among the elites may be of importance.
How often have you been to Africa or in the political circles of former colonial powers or is it possible that you misunderstand what's going on there? And if you are right, how would one improve the situation with the elites? Would doing that also be preferable to fleeing?
You are aware that people all over Africa and the Middle East already fled even before it became easier to reach Europe. They just fled somewhere else then and many/most still do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
That's definitely an area where African countries can be self-suficient with proper governance; especially with co-operation and trade between countries.
http://www.euractiv.com/specialrepor...la-news-516102
Quote:
Originally Posted by article
“It is difficult to imagine the sense in the system, because when we import, say, green beans from Kenya, we’re taking imbedded water from a drought-prone country, and then we’re putting into our supermarkets, into our fridges and then we’re throwing it way uneaten,” Benton told EurActiv by telephone, saying his comments reflected his personal views.
“But equally, when you talk to governments down there they say, ‘we need the money’. So in a sense, that’s a very tricky balance to negotiate because by those trade deals you are helping them to develop economically, but at the same time in the long run it cannot be sustainable and that as population grows, and as climate change impacts increasingly happen, it can’t continue in the way it is at the moment.”
Yes, as you said, cut ties to Europe and just trade among africans, then wonder why you have gone broke without the export profits.
Then blame them for having gone broke because they cut the ties with Europe. Also clearly visible here that the professor has no clue what he's talking about since the solution is obviously easy and common sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
Remember that we have no reason assume that countries like Venezuela and Cuba are run as well as "anti-imperialist" countries realistically can be. I am pretty certain that is not the case. What they do demonstrate is that this is not an inherently worse option.
You mean empty shelves are just as bad in Venezuela as they are in Africa and therefore Venezuela is clearly not worse off?
Of course that is a good point, hungry people are not doing worse than other hungry people, problem solved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
That's a separate topic. All I am saying is that
a) I do not welcome their arrival in large numbers
b) They can put in an effort to make their country better (but there is no guarantee it will work during their lifetimes)
Now, if wealthy countries like European ones consistently reject these people, the odds should increase for people in these countries to take action to fix their countries.
I actually agree that a is not sustainable, but in b you come across as though you blame it on the refugees and you seem pretty naive/spoiled/unrealistic in your expectations. If they are not expectations then your argument seems pointless, might as well point out that one can theoretically fly faster than the speed of light if one had unlimited energy. And those people could work on that to fly to a better planet or they can just continue to take the lazy route and flee to Europe...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
Name specific countries where this is a good analogy, and explain how.
Afghanistan, they were organized, got bombed by an outside power, had a puppet installed and were left alone in a state where continued infighting seems almost inevitable. Apparently most of the refugees in Greece are incidentally from Syria and Afghanistan.
Maybe you can explain how the outside influences did not contribute to the stream of people fleeing from Afghanistan?
Oh and like, the egyptian military is still/again funded by the US.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...y-aid-to-egypt
http://www.forbes.com/sites/charlest...ils-to-review/
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
The point has always been to argue for what I posted earlier in this thread:
Yes, and WHY do they have these problems? Many argue it's because colonialism messed them up, the slave trade turned them into enemies and borders were drawn arbitrarily and can now only be changed through bloodshed that will not really stop the stream of refugees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
What people living in these countries chose to do is up to them. There isn't room for all of them to resettle here, that's for sure.
We have enough food and room for a whole lot more. Maybe you mean we cannot take them without sharing some of our wealth with them or treating them really badly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
People living in these countries can choose the easy path (do no nothing to improve their country and focus purely on day-to-day tasks), or a hard path (work to fix their country alongside their daily tasks).
And since you let them choose, many choose to come here. I'm glad we agree that this is a valid choice.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
So they are "unnatural" because they did not develop in the same way Europeans did
Those are your words.
Quote:
and it was their own fault that they got into this position?
Up to this point, I've been concerned about the time period from the start of colonialisation (at the earliest) to the present. Going even earlier is a different topic, so I'll drop that.
However, this is something we can also apply to the world even at present. Currently, we implicitly assume that the universe does not contain hostile high-tech beings from other planets. The moral blame might lie with any aliens that obliterate or enslave us, but if we had focused on technological developments and scouting the universe rather than killing each other and pretending the Earth is all there is, we'd be making smarter choices. In many contexts, talking about who is to blame is pointless; what ultimately matters is prevention.
Quote:
And who keeps these things in place?
Evil non-African foreigners? Doubt it.
Quote:
And if you are right, how would one improve the situation with the elites?
That's an internal problem, cf. the starting point of this debate.
Quote:
Yes, as you said, cut ties to Europe and just trade among africans, then wonder why you have gone broke without the export profits.
Then blame them for having gone broke because they cut the ties with Europe. Also clearly visible here that the professor has no clue what he's talking about since the solution is obviously easy and common sense.
They need the money because they are part of the international system - circular reasoning. And look, content in your article agrees with me in terms of priorities:
Quote:
Poor transportation connections, high tariffs, security barriers and primitive information-sharing on market needs contribute to the problem, ACP’s Chambas told EurActiv, making it easier to ship goods to Europe by air or sea.
Leaders of the 53-nation African Union have approved an “action plan” to change this by promoting regional commerce and providing a more inviting manufacturing climate. The AU plan calls for the free movement of people and commerce, and multinational cooperation to address the sub-continent’s pitiful infrastructure.
Regional trade blocs in the west, south and east have led to easier trade and infrastructure investments – though Chambas said central Africa remains largely outside the picture.
Quote:
You mean empty shelves are just as bad in Venezuela as they are in Africa and therefore Venezuela is clearly not worse off?
Of course that is a good point, hungry people are not doing worse than other hungry people, problem solved.
Well...many places in Africa they don't even have shelves. As far as I can see, the ordinary Venezuelan is not starving, uneducated or dying in droves from mosquitoes.
Quote:
you seem pretty naive/spoiled/unrealistic in your expectations. If they are not expectations then your argument seems pointless, might as well point out that one can theoretically fly faster than the speed of light if one had unlimited energy. And those people could work on that to fly to a better planet or they can just continue to take the lazy route and flee to Europe...
I explicitly stated that there was no guarantee it would work in their lifetimes in the parenthesis.
And no; infinite energy would take you arbitrarily close to the speed of light, but not past it.
Quote:
Afghanistan, they were organized, got bombed by an outside power, had a puppet installed and were left alone in a state where continued infighting seems almost inevitable.
So the Afghans are wired in such a manner that if they get bombed, they start fighting each other? Sounds like they should start a national counselling program.
Quote:
Maybe you can explain how the outside influences did not contribute to the stream of people fleeing from Afghanistan?
This was never my argument.
Yet US funding didn't prevent the previous revolution.
Quote:
Yes, and WHY do they have these problems? Many argue it's because colonialism messed them up, the slave trade turned them into enemies and borders were drawn arbitrarily and can now only be changed through bloodshed that will not really stop the stream of refugees.
In effect you are saying that they are too stupid to be able to "un-mess" themselves.
Quote:
We have enough food and room for a whole lot more.
But not every inhabitant of these countries.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
Those are your words.
You say exploration is natural and you say they didn't do it, so what am I supposed to deduce from your words?
Are you speaking in riddles on purpose or do you just not have any opinion but merely strange explanations with no point to them?
Do you blame anyone or are you just saying things for the fun of it?
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
"Show me were ECONOMY is mentioned." No problem:"Will Marxists ever change their rhetorics of "traitors yielding the national property to international capitalists". The worst of this is it is what YOU wrote. Marxism is (but not only as a specialist who lived 20 years in a Marxist society already knows) a explanation of how economy works.
"For 20 years" And this qualify you to know what Marxism is about? How? You were not good at understand it, I would say. Did you play truant during the lessons?
"You evidently don't either when you call Right Sector nazis" They call themselves Nazi, and wear Nazi Uniforms and symbols, named their organisations with Nazi names. I don't need twisted explanation.
"I never denied that there were nazis on Maidan" Oh yes, you did. You wrote things like "I wouldn't call them Nazi but extreme-nationalists" or close enough. :laugh4:You even did right now, in your latest intervention: "And if they were real nazis".
"You again try to present the events as an ethnic and/or linguistic conflict, and neither is correct. Ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers were as numerous as Ukrainians and Ukrainian speakers on Maidan, 60% of ATO soldiers now are Russian-speakers, some predominantly Russian-speaking regions (Mykolayiv and Dnipropetrovsk) show a higher percentage of those who were mobilized than some "nationalistic" regions (Ternopil). So you still stay a prisoner of the stereotypes and misconceptions you adopted and are going by with." Bla bla bla bla. From Ukrainianationalist.com, I suppose, or equivalent (Ukr.gov.propaganda.com?). With all the Russian Pro-Ukrainian government, some can wonder how Putin succeeded to find any volunteers to give weapons to fight. Of course, I always forgot. These were Chechen mercenaries...
"So wearing emblems and marching and the ban that was repealed a day later equal ethnic cleansing?" Yeap. It starts like this. The fact they failed is just a proof how incompetent they were. But the last one is no excuse for the try.
"Now I see how qualified you were in Bosnia to detect ethnic cleansings." Now I see how pathetic and out of touch your arguments are.
" I gave an event of the past " 1 year for me, 600 for you. I see... And again, perhaps this time you will get it, it was nothing link with traitors, but with expansion of EU to the East in a USSR kind of way (to answer to your question about what did Marxists learned about USSR bla bla bla baseless intervention you provided).
And I still don't see your point about Azincourt. But you probably don't either, because you don't debate, you attack randomly at what you perceived as weak points to your "opponents".
Now, except if you come-up with others interventions not directly linked with ultra-nationalist Ukrainian sources/propaganda (you can carry on) but I will not take any more time to answer your bubbles. Be free to carry on, but I spent too much time with your none sense, and was too close to become like you, full of what ever you want to qualify your various rants.
I do apology to others participants for this. I can't promise for ever, but I will try to do better...:yes:
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
You say exploration is natural and you say they didn't do it, so what am I supposed to deduce from your words?
That the idea of exploring the world and finding out what's out there could actually have struck them, as well as any other person on the planet. Most people are primarily concerned with what's right in front of their noses (except the stuff that's popular parlance, like global warming currently). There are downsides and upsides to this, like everything else.
One downside is that outside forces stronger than you might come apparently out of nowhere and attack you when you are unprepared - whether they are called Huns or Europeans.
Quote:
Do you blame anyone or are you just saying things for the fun of it?
What would be the point of blaming people? Whether the Huns had decided to settle outside the Roman Empire, or the Romans had run their empire properly, a lot of outcomes would have been similar as far as the health of the Roman Empire is concerned.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
Marxism is (but not only as a specialist who lived 20 years in a Marxist society already knows) a explanation of how economy works.
Not only. It is about politics as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
"For 20 years" And this qualify you to know what Marxism is about? How? You were not good at understand it, I would say. Did you play truant during the lessons?
I learnt it not in a classroom, I LIVED it. And if you paid attention (which I doubt) I always spoke of APPLIED Marxism. The Communists tried (with what understanding of it they had) to put into practice Marx's economic theory. We all know the results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
"I never denied that there were nazis on Maidan" Oh yes, you did. You wrote things like "I wouldn't call them Nazi but extreme-nationalists" or close enough.
Again a misplaced quote. It was said about Svoboda, but besides them there were other extemists on Maidan, some of who were for sure nazis. And I never denied it, moreover, I had an explanation of it which is: in times of turmoils all kinds of extremists come to the limelight and when the turmoils are over, they merge into backgound. The turmoil in Ukraine didn't die but such elements have become no more conspicuous than in other countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
"You evidently don't either when you call Right Sector nazis" They call themselves Nazi, and wear Nazi Uniforms and symbols, named their organisations with Nazi names. I don't need twisted explanation.
You said it about Azov. Right Sector don't do these things.
And as is usual with you (as a Marxist) you see the world in two colors - black and white. No hues or shades.
Black is for Ukraine, the EU, NATO, the USA, obscurantists, religion... White is for fewer things - valiant French army and... rioting Russian-speaking populaces. Consequently, everything that refers to the first can't be any good and vice versa.
You eagerly search for nazis in Ukraine (and in Ukraine only) turning a blind eye elswhere.
Is this not nazism?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29700542
There were other numerous examples when Ukrainian POWs were marched through Donetsk or taken into the streets so that "the populaces" could kick them or spit them into the face.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28919683
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85qAWk_PKv4
Again propaganda?
And Tsarov thanked Right Sector for saving him from a crowd that tried to lynch him. For you to understand it better, it is like.... you thanking Le Pen.
You accuse Ukraine of planned ethnic cleansings, and Russia DOES it:
https://news.pn/en/RussiaInvadedUkraine/139919
Even if the numbers given by Dzhamilev are twice exaggerated, what would you say if
the same was said about Russian speakers fleeing the "junta-ruled Ukraine"?
You don't want to see anything of that becuase it doesn't fit into your vision of events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
Bla bla bla bla. From Ukrainianationalist.com, I suppose, or equivalent (Ukr.gov.propaganda.com?). With all the Russian Pro-Ukrainian government, some can wonder how Putin succeeded to find any volunteers to give weapons to fight. Of course, I always forgot. These were Chechen mercenaries...
You have no idea what Ukrainian media publish, yet you accuse all of them of propaganda. I once said (and it stays valid) that Ukrainian TV and internet sources are full of criticism of the Ukrainian government, the president, the way the crisis is addressed, the corruption in Ukrainian army, the oligarchs' depredations and so on. So one can find a lot of information, not only propaganda.
But here I see a strange thing - for the first time you admit that the separatists' weapons were given to them by Putin. It took you just a year to see it! Give me a break! That's too fast a progress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
And again, perhaps this time you will get it, it was nothing link with traitors, but with expansion of EU to the East in a USSR kind of way ...
...you don't debate, you attack randomly at what you perceived as weak points to your "opponents".
It is difficult to debate with a person who says something about traitor governments and rightaway links a one-year old information about Yaresko. Cohesion is what I percieve as a weak point in this post.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
One downside is that outside forces stronger than you might come apparently out of nowhere and attack you when you are unprepared - whether they are called Huns or Europeans.
What would be the point of blaming people? Whether the Huns had decided to settle outside the Roman Empire, or the Romans had run their empire properly, a lot of outcomes would have been similar as far as the health of the Roman Empire is concerned.
So you think modern morals and ideals are superfluous nd everyone should just learn to cope with the darwinist world we live in and make the best of it?
You're still saying a lot about facts without making an actual point. Would you say if a banker tricks me and I lose money and I find a way to kill him that's just how it is and the police shouldn't really do anything for he should have found a way to defend himself or do you sometimes hold your and other modern governments and societies to higher standards?
You sound incredibly darwinist to me. The strong will just trounce the weak and that's the way it is, nothing we should do about it. Is that your idea or are you just stating facts again without any morale at all? Do you have any idea what should be done in the future or are you just going to what what will happen and assume that it is what it is whatever it is?
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
"You again try to present the events as an ethnic and/or linguistic conflict, and neither is correct. Ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers were as numerous as Ukrainians and Ukrainian speakers on Maidan, 60% of ATO soldiers now are Russian-speakers, some predominantly Russian-speaking regions (Mykolayiv and Dnipropetrovsk) show a higher percentage of those who were mobilized than some "nationalistic" regions (Ternopil). So you still stay a prisoner of the stereotypes and misconceptions you adopted and are going by with." Bla bla bla bla. From Ukrainianationalist.com, I suppose, or equivalent (Ukr.gov.propaganda.com?).
Here's the chart that shows mobilization progress:
Attachment 15927
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Husar
You're still saying a lot about facts without making an actual point.
Of course there's a point: it pays to be prepared, it pays to make an effort. Taking the victim role typically won't work unless there are people capable of helping you out who takes pity on you; and in many cases, you are dead before that can happen.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
Of course there's a point: it pays to be prepared, it pays to make an effort. Taking the victim role typically won't work unless there are people capable of helping you out who takes pity on you; and in many cases, you are dead before that can happen.
How is that going to help now? Should they prepare now and for what?
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Here's a thought - if a people have a "cultural problem" forming a functioning state then those who flee are likely to export that cultural problem - something we see if countries in Europe today, in certain parts of the UK and especially in Scandinavia where they have allowed so many people in so quickly.
The weak response to the problem of illegal immigration encourages the belief in certain countries that we are soft (we are soft, but not as much as they think) and that encourages more people to come. Part of why the UK is currently fighting so hard to push back the Calais migrants is to disabuse them of the idea that the UK is a soft touch, or softer than France.
The open borders within mainland Europe at best mask the problem and at worse exacerbate it because if you can get ashore in Italy or Greece you can then travel throughout Europe until you get the UK, which is why all the illegals suddenly surface in Calais, it's the presence of a controlled border.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viking
That the idea of exploring the world and finding out what's out there could actually have struck them, as well as any other person on the planet. Most people are primarily concerned with what's right in front of their noses (except the stuff that's popular parlance, like global warming currently). There are downsides and upsides to this, like everything else.
One downside is that outside forces stronger than you might come apparently out of nowhere and attack you when you are unprepared - whether they are called Huns or Europeans.
Europeans discovered the Americas and became global colonizers because they wanted to find a sea route to the Indies and become rich trading in spices and other goods, not because they were naturally curious. The East coast of Africa already had sea routes to the Indies, where the wealthy Swahili city-states served as hubs for Arab traders. Europeans had reasons to explore that Africans didn't.
And besides that, the colonization of Africa happened a long time after Europeans made contact, the Europeans didn't just suddenly come out of nowhere.
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Re: The Issue of African illegal immigrants from Africa
Lets take an example to Hungary, they just build a fence that is not impossible to get over, but at least very tricky. We could also learn from the Ozzies, they haul the ships back without being jerks, they give good boats and plenty of supplies. As it is now it's a humanitarian disaster waiting to happen, it should be made VERY clear that there is no meaninfull life for them in Europe first, despite what these Maelström typs open-bordere fundie types say. It is indeed much harsher than some say by the way.
edit, it can also be downright cruel. Personal experience; a friend of mine lived in a house just before an asylum-centre, we always had a lot of barbecues and welcomed everyone. Pakistani guy thought he got a permit and a job and cooked us a big dinner to celebrate it,but they lied to him as the bus went straight to Schiphol airport. Nobody of us ever heard from him after that.
