Shaping the future of Total War modding
Shaping the Future of Total War modding
Earlier this year, prompted by a thread from Dol Guldur this forum held host to a variety of topics discussing the future of modding the Total War games.
Previously, the discussions on how best to handle the reuse and incorporation of other modders' work resulted in the introduction of suggested Conditions of Use. I'm happy to say now that all mods listed on the Mod Downloads forum now make clear exactly what the creators' intentions are.
The discussions on hosted forums has led to the Hosted Mod area being split up and aligned with regular mod forums; encouraging both interested mod-users to stop by the Hosted Mod areas and Hosted Mod team members to interact with the general modding boards.
There's also been further development of the Links Manager area:
- the Tutorials database now provides links to tutorials across the entire modding community from several different major TW mod sites.
- there's a new Modding Answers section, ideal for adding links to useful answers you've received or made to make them easy to find for others.
Now, Dol Guldur has shared with us some more insights about the characteristics of a good modder, and - with Medieval 2 just about to consume us - we'd like to spark up more discussions again in order to try and take as much of our knowledge with us into the new game.
Lessons from Rome in mod development and team management
How to best transform new modders into valuable members?
'Mod packs' and feature mods - vital ingredients or a waste of time?
These are just the starting topics. As before, these discussions are open for all - as conversations develop and tangential issues arise feel free to spin them off into other threads or start up new discussions of your own.
Re: Shaping the future of Total War modding
I, for one, was pleasecd to see the sensible approach to modding that was adopted around conditions of use. I think, as a community, we handled it far better than most. It reflects the general sensibility of the people who come here, and a degree of maturity in the community that is a refreshing change to some...'other' areas if the wonderful world of forums!
Having a section of answers saves having a mass of 'sticky' threads and also takes the load of the search function...so often missed by those who need it most! You can just point a novice in that direction and let him find the answers as best they can, without having to trawl the depths of years of posts! All good.
It is also good to highlight some of the things that have caused mods to sink, both those that fizzled out some months after their start, or those that launched majestically off the slipway only to plough straight beneath the waves before the paint was even dry.... All too ogften, the same mistakes are made over and over, resulting in despair. We cvan, as a community, point people in roughly the right direction.... but they STILL need to be free to make their own mistakes.
Lessons:
Some good points here..plus some stuff that is just as unhelpful as no advice at all! Personally, I have been pretty much a team of one. My experiences reflect the way I like to work on things. I can model, skin, animate, text edit, make a map and generally...given enough time....can do all the tasks that a mod requires. I have had people join me to help..but these have been volunteers who approached me and who had something to give. All too many 'recruitment' threads attract a mass of volunteers to research or test..but not to model, skin, animate etc. By relying on myself, I am in control of the development and the direction. For me to hand that over, I would have to be sure the person I handed it to shared my vision of the finished product. This works for me....but would be a disaster for most teams!
I refrain from giving advice on this point because I know my advice would not bo good for most.
Modders / Members .... only time and invovlement can do this. A member gains value in the community by learning, sharing that knowledge ( not sitting on a grand breakthrough to give their mod an ego boost! ), and by involving themselves in what goes on.
Mod Packs ..... hmmm.... interesting!
A mod is what you want to make it. I released my Skeleton Horde as a simple replacement for the Gauls. Unit stats were virtually unchanged bar minor tweaks, and the thing was just a fun way of putting some new visual content into the game. That is a simple 'modellers' mod and anyone could do it that way. Release them as simple swaps that can run in both skirmish and full campaign battles and that works very well. I was going to do more with them...but people wanted to play with them, and this was a simple solution.
Metal Mayhem, however, cannot be handled that way. It can't be sliced up into 'packs' since it changes far too much to ever be balanced. I have already had to remove all the standard horse and camel models from the game to make room for the units I have added. New build trees, new everything! It either goes out as a finished product....or I keep it on my HD for my own fun and for the entertainment of my kids...who love it!
In all things, though, the MOST important thing for ANY mod is to really thoroughly scope out what you intend to do, and the volume of work you will have to do to complete it. Be 100% sure that you can do everything you plan to do, and DO NOT EVERassume you can 'solve that problem later on once the mod gets going' . Test the concept, and if it works carry on. If it doesn't...work around it or give up!
I tested my animations, tested my 'all horse' concept ( and had to include some bi-pedal robots for skirmish battles involving cities... it INSISTS you have a sapper or ladder etc. ) I knew all the things I had to do COULD be done, and that left me just with the challenge of making the content.
I PLANNED it , I TESTED my theories...and then I started my Mod. I have pages and pages of notes, sketches, diagrams etc. and I know what I want to get done. If every mod did the same, I think more would get done!
Re: Shaping the future of Total War modding
the thing I was most frustrated about is how easily new mods are announced about themes that are already covered or very simular to existing mods. It seems everyone wants to be independant and their own team leader. I guess this is understandable but it definitly wasn't good for the modding community, especially with some of the larger mods who desperatly needed more help (ex: ChivalryTW) but never got it.
For me the situation is now different though. I'm part of the Lordz team and still working on NTW2, but it's far from certain I (and the rest of the Lordz) will move on to modding MTW2. We're just tired of the limitations of the engine (and the lack of official modding support for RTW) and want to explore other options that allow us more freedom.
Re: Shaping the future of Total War modding
Yes it was a great modding community for Rome. It's a pity though that not so much effort was put forth for mod development and discussion around MTW/VI.
Let's hope it does though just the same!:2thumbsup: hehe!
Thanks,
Aenarion
Re: Shaping the future of Total War modding
The question of supporting large mods is a difficult one.... I never really found what the large mod teams were doing all that interesting. I could see the 'community need' for making stuff for them, but at the end of the day, it was my free time! If they told me to make a detailed set of Swiss-Army knives for a boy-scout mod....well....no. Not even if the community depended on it's success!
People see a niche for their own ideas, and want the freedom to follow their dream. I understand that if the community only put out a couple of mods, and everyone worked for them...then we would have more finished mods. But that will never work! I have run through this debate in other modding circles when I built a certain model for inclusion in the game.
I was 'told off' for not making something which wasn't 'essential' and wasting valuable effort on a project the community didn't want. We have to have XXX, YYY and ZZZ they told me. Go and do them instead! So I told them how much I was going to charge for their commission....If I work for free, then I build what I want. If the 'community' wishes to employ and direct those with the talent to do the work, then it should pay. Ultimately....the thing ended up with me doing what I wanted to do anyway, since the community had no power to make me do otherwise. I did nothing further for them, and there are probably a few there still wondering 'where all the modellers went' .....
The lesson ..... people mod in their free time for their own pleasure. I know I do. If someone were to pressure me to do work I didn't feel like doing, I just wouldn't do it! You can guide and encourage a free community...but you can't dictate what it does. Sure, this can hurt the big mods.... but I never wanted to build stuff for Chivalry TW, or Blue Lotus TW etc..... I wanted to build stuff that fitted in no-one elses mod. If my efforts would have made the difference between someone elses mod being finished or not..... then I STILL wouldn't work on it unless I wanted to anyway. It's my time, and I spend it modding purely for pleasure.
The big mods should spend more time making people want to work for them if they stuck for certain talents .... and then the other mods can complain that 'mod XXXX has stolen all the modellers' :dizzy2:
Re: Shaping the future of Total War modding
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwian
I have had people join me to help..but these have been volunteers who approached me and who had something to give. All too many 'recruitment' threads attract a mass of volunteers to research or test..but not to model, skin, animate etc.
I think that's true of large mods with big fanbases - smaller mods tend to be lucky to get any kind of response.
That first sentence is a good lesson to take, I feel, to M2TW for mod teams who err on the large side. New recruits should be able to bring something to the table and be able to demonstrate it practically. It's a good idea to ask people to contribute to some non-vital activity first, before allowing them into the team.
Granted, some of these will disappear after joining, but at least something will have come out of them. And those who never reply would have been of no use anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwian
By relying on myself, I am in control of the development and the direction. For me to hand that over, I would have to be sure the person I handed it to shared my vision of the finished product.
That's very true for original background mods. A mod such as Blue Lotus for example was driven by one modder's vision of what he wanted to achieve - and it was just fortunate for the community that he had the talent and commitment to achieve it. It would have been far more difficult with a 'creative group' as each would have their own ideas - and because it was original none of them would be wrong or right.
This is probably one of the reasons why so many group mods focus on non-original background - either putting historical accuracy at the forefront or having a 'shared text' such as the Tolkien mods. There at least there are printed words to reference and not one person's grey-matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwian
Mod Packs ..... hmmm.... interesting!
A mod is what you want to make it. I released my Skeleton Horde as a simple replacement for the Gauls. Unit stats were virtually unchanged bar minor tweaks, and the thing was just a fun way of putting some new visual content into the game. That is a simple 'modellers' mod and anyone could do it that way. Release them as simple swaps that can run in both skirmish and full campaign battles and that works very well. I was going to do more with them...but people wanted to play with them, and this was a simple solution
I don't think there's any argument that the community should include both 'full experience' mods and mod packs. I think the real question here is balance - given their respective values (which is a matter of discussion) is the balance right with RTW? If not, what can be done to shift it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adherbal
the thing I was most frustrated about is how easily new mods are announced about themes that are already covered or very simular to existing mods. It seems everyone wants to be independant and their own team leader. I guess this is understandable but it definitly wasn't good for the modding community, especially with some of the larger mods who desperatly needed more help (ex: ChivalryTW) but never got it.
It's a tricky one - on the one hand this is a volunteer, egalitarian community where everyone can please themselves developing what they wish - and on the other there's the fact that at the end of the day a community's success can only really be judged by the mods actually released (and the fun people had along the way). There's no issue with lots of mods being announced if they actually result in mods being released :sad:
Mods that share period and themes will inevitably spring up - communication and collaboration between such teams however should perhaps be our watchwords. If the trading mentality that has started to come around in the RTW community comes to the fore quicker for M2TW then it would perhaps be best for all.
I understand the point made that trading can lead to mods using their uniqueness, and obviously the most predominant aspects will be developed individually. However, that still leaves much material that mods can trade and speed up their development, without losing their individuality. Animations are a good example of this, also elements such as trees, grass and buildings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adherbal
I'm part of the Lordz team and still working on NTW2, but it's far from certain I (and the rest of the Lordz) will move on to modding MTW2. We're just tired of the limitations of the engine (and the lack of official modding support for RTW) and want to explore other options that allow us more freedom.
NTW2 has certainly had an epic development process and the professionalism of its results speak for themselves. I know many of the 'new Lordz' (so to speak) have been coming off big major projects of their own - which makes finishing a second all the more laudable.
As for official modding support for M2TW - this is the primary reason the visit to the M2TW dev studio - so hopefully they will have something to say on the matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwian
The big mods should spend more time making people want to work for them if they stuck for certain talents .... and then the other mods can complain that 'mod XXXX has stolen all the modellers
Ah, now this is an interesting topic - some mod teams seem to have a far easier time recruiting than others.
Without getting too personal about how mod teams have negatively impacted their fortunes, can people offer any advice as to how to make their mod teams attractive for new recruits (and best of all experienced modders)?
The Lordz, as Adherbal mentions in the other, are a good example of a team that put together a very successful recruitment drive that found experienced modders to reinvigorate a project. Truly a great achievement within a community where people appear generally more interested in starting something new than in completing other people's work.
Re: Shaping the future of Total War modding
An argument for strict modification management: Getting off on the right foot with an ambitious project.
When reading the title of my reply, one may erroneously come to the conclusion that strict is equivalent to tyrannical and management is equivalent to beauracracy. The reader would do well to read on rather than come to hasty conclusions.
One of the most difficult aspects to negotiate in a major modification endeavor is that of cooridination and control. All modifications have a general "mission statement" as to what they desire to see accomplished: Most Historical, Better Gameplay, a Total Conversion, and etc. But how often do these modification find themselves bogged down with conflicting points of view, strong personalities, idea-burn, and data overload? The fact is that each of these probelms can create a single stumbling block large enough to cripple a modification before it can ever finish. Concurrent to these issues is the resource crisis- all mods struggle for great and consistent talent who are willing and able to dedicate hundreds of hours of time. I would argue that each of these major obstacles to success can be overcome with sound management principles implemented from the very inception of a serious modification effort.
Idea-Burn: When is enough really enough? Modders are imaginative out-of-the-box creators with a talent for conceptualization. But where is the follow-through? It is so very tempting to continue a streak of ideas with further ideas, one loaded upon the other until a vision of modding brilliance is achieved in the mind's eye. This very process can end up hindering a mod more than aiding it, as new ideas generate enthusiastic zeal and old ideas fall to side half-way finished. The old ideas, once new and exciting, soon become chores and dreaded tasks.
Data-Overload: A modification can become so overburdened with information that it becomes a job onto itself to track, store, and locate the currently relevant data to complete a task. A job which should have taken an hour now takes two , three, or four. New members drown in a sea of scattered images, debates, administration, and code. They become restless, then listless, and lastly disillusioned.
The Human Element- Personalities and points of view: Negotiation fails. Ideas clash. Roles and responsibilities are confused with respect and esteem. A talented member leaves or worse yet- the team breaks apart.
All of these issues are found in any organization, whether that be a non-profit, a corporation, a goverment agency, or the local elks lodge. BUt those organizations that find the most success are those that follow the basic rules of organizational management: Goals & Structure. A serious modification should be pursued with the same professionalism as a modern start-up corporation. Here is how.
Integrated Asynchronous Project Management
Goals.
Human Resource Structure.
Data Management.
Communication.
Each of these four elements is important in its own right. And each of these are typically well addressed within any project. The error is in failing to integrate these elements into a symbiotic model that works for mutual efficieny.
Goals are the basic building block of any project. Whether your goal is to type a line of text or to revise an entire component of the system, the vision of an end result is the first step to change towards that vision. Goal management begins with prioritization. The project shouls have a one-sentence mission statament that clearly defines the underlying motivation and purpose of the project. Such a mission statement could be:
" To achieve an accurate conversion of RTW: BI to the setting of pre-industrial Feudal Japan, incorporating modest changes in gameplay and reasonable depications of history. "
This mission statement offers a foundation from which all futures efforts will be directed towards.
Second to the mission statement is the overarching goals of the project. These goals are broad, mostly measurable, and achievable given the resources your team has. Goals may include: " Modify the existing Campaign map to accurately represent geography and population distribution in 1650 ".
Thrid your objectives. Objectives directly contribute to the specific outlined goal. For the example Goal above, objectives would include "Compile research on 1650 Japan". "Complete Geographical modification". "Complete Icon placement and territorial division". "Complete campaign map icons".
Lastly are the tasks. Tasks are brief and specific items of work that, when completed, will contribute towrds an objective. For the Objective of "Complete Campaign Map icons", A task would be "Complete Iron resource Icon" .
To Be continued...
