My personal army-setup

As I got asked to make such a tread, here we go.
This is a very personal view, it may differ from other peoples view or liking.
If I speak about numbers, I look at it with small unit-sizes.

Base Idea

Imo spear clan is strongest right now, especially with monks counting as spears. This give me the possibility to get bansai and/or inspire on my monks. It also give me the cheapest "inspire bot" in game - the ashi spear, with 4 base upgrades and inspire it costs me 569 Koku!

Another base thought is, that I can go with a full spear army and dont use any cav in team games, my ally can bring extra cav and I save me retainer or I play with guys who are in a cav-clan and use strong cavs with bansai and inspire.

I prefer (unless its 22k) a base army made of ashis, loan swords are extreme strong and cheap, same as ashi spears.
This I combinate with expensive shock units who do the spike job. My monk guns are good enough to rout a whole army on its own.
Monk guns are the strongest unit in game, at least from the killing-speed. With inspire and rapid shot the monk gun gets up to 170 reload skill and pump out 8-10 shots in the time a unit has to run the 150 range till it reach the gun, with some stopping from my cheap ashis.

In most games, my guns kill 100-130 each, sometimes even more ( there are friendly kills though).


I also use at least 1 good monk, my melee shock unit, it got inspire and can pump itself up to 25/27 Attack.
You can do tests yourself, this unit really eats other units, the killing speed with 27 attack is out of hands, it needs seconds to rout other units, unless its a very good veteran.

As example, this unit kills a normal monk in around 12-16 secs and lose about 4-8 mens out of the 40.



To not get too low on numbers, I bring my loans and ashi spears to get some mass, my Monk guns, monk bows (in 14k) and the monk melee are my shock units. Im weak with cav, since I bring low numbers in cav.
This means, that I have to keep my army clustered and has to counter enemy cav. I push with a combination of my monk guns and cheap bows. If you want, the cheap ashi bows are the cannonfodder.

It all depends on the enemy setup ofcourse, if there is a way to shotout with our bows, than I do that.



In our 2v2´s, Magy bring strong cav and at least 1 monk bow, he is the shotout and skirmish guy, to press people with his cav a bit and win a shotout with bows, if needed. Im the puncher, Im the guy who work for the right situation and than press like hell.

Imagine my 2 monkguns coming for you with 150 range, 170 reload and 120 accuracy. You either has strong guns yourself, some hardcore bows who can stop it or your toast. To rush it with melee is a bad idea, to send cav in first to make me move guns back and than get melee quick behind is a possible way.



at 10k I use mostly this setup:

2 Yari cav
2 ashi spears (one is 569 with inspire)
3 loan swoards (5 lvl upgraded)
2-3 cheap ashi archer
2 monk guns (1035 each)
1 Monk (depends on the other units, but if possible my inspire monk for 1159)


This is a 2v2 Setup, Magy use at least 1 monk bow and strong cav, else I would use a monk bow (200 range) myself.



Bows:

Unless you are in a bow-clan, you run around with 150 range bows - Ashi and samurai.
You can upgrade monk bows from 175 to 200 - without bow clan and thats a huge imbalance imo.

Samurai bows are pointless, forget about this unit! Either you use upgrades ashi bows or go for the expensive monk bows.
In 14k I use a combination of it, 2-3 cheap ashi bows (cannonfodder) and mostly 1 expensive monk bow.


swords

Loan swords are great, upgraded they really kick ass, you just have to watch the moral, these units has to be in range of your general, same as ashi spears
Katana are good, with some upgrades they really hurt
ND I dont like them, pretty low armor, very expensive. With upgrades katana do better!


cav

Light cav as cav-clan can be strong, if upgraded correctly this unit can be surprisely good - you can put bansai and inspire up on it
Yari cav - most used cav
Great guard - best cav on the field. Magy use a GG with inspire, it beats 3-4 yari cav on its own.


Spears

Ashi - with some upgrades the stats are pretty good and with the discount retainer it is a very cheap unit
yari sams, I hardly use it, the "speed" abiltiy is crap, else this unit has okay stats.
Naginata, I dont like that unit, if you have to relay on high armor, you lost already (even so many people faced them in rushes)
Monk - high end mega super duper monser killer, extreme strong unit, weak armour, but 15 moral and a real killer, especially as it counts as spear and rip of any cav.


Matchlocks

As with bows, either you go with ashi guns or with monks, there is no point into getting samurai guns.
Monk guns are extreme strong, especially as it gets to 150 range.

Nice post, I agree on almost everything, especially the yari sam/bow sam/matchlock sam, I never use them..
Only thing I'd add is that because of only encountering challenging players in 1v1 when playing vs. 10 stars I am building my limited amount of vet slots around 10 star armies.. It is hard to get 2 good armies in 10 star games when you don't want to lose too much in lower fund battles. For instance I still keep some loan sword and yari ashigaru but besides that I deleted most of my lower fund vets.. It is hard though to delete a rank 9 vetxD..
Altough I think 2 yari sam vets might be nice, to add on a cav fight..
What about ranked fire, worth it?

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Originally Posted by Jevanko

Nice post, I agree on almost everything, especially the yari sam/bow sam/matchlock sam, I never use them..
Only thing I'd add is that because of only encountering challenging players in 1v1 when playing vs. 10 stars I am building my limited amount of vet slots around 10 star armies.. It is hard to get 2 good armies in 10 star games when you don't want to lose too much in lower fund battles. For instance I still keep some loan sword and yari ashigaru but besides that I deleted most of my lower fund vets.. It is hard though to delete a rank 9 vetxD..
Altough I think 2 yari sam vets might be nice, to add on a cav fight..
What about ranked fire, worth it?

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Ranked fire is not good. The whole unit need LOS, else the unit wont shoot at all. Without the upgrade you get at least a part of the guns-unit to shoot, with ranked = nothing. You lose a lot more, than you gain. The only place where it would make sense are maps like rice field, which are very flat.

To get 2 good armies to play 22k all the time is no problem at all, you need 4-6 monk bows (4 will do, so you switch 2) and 6-8 good katana, monk or whatever melee units. I also have 4 good cavs to switch, this way I get enough units to always spent the 22k and also have room to use a cheap 670 (no retainer) inspire ashi for a 3rd inspire.

The problem is that if you use no ashi for 22k (and I use trading post for ultra battles) you get 19 2x for ultra battles of all expensive units which is 38 slots.. Then you have your 3 hero's so 41.. Then you only have two slots left for some loan swords or some other units to vary your setups, which is just too few.. It is ok, but that is when you run with the same setup most of the time..

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Originally Posted by Jevanko

The problem is that if you use no ashi for 22k (and I use trading post for ultra battles) you get 19 2x for ultra battles of all expensive units which is 38 slots.. Then you have your 3 hero's so 41.. Then you only have two slots left for some loan swords or some other units to vary your setups, which is just too few.. It is ok, but that is when you run with the same setup most of the time..

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You dont understand what I mean.

I use 6-8 normal units and just 3 veteran monks, 2 veteran gun monks, 2 veteran monk bows and some veteran cavs. Its a mix of normal units and veterans.
My expensive monks costs 1200+, the guns 1200 as well and the bows 1300. Some of the expensive units are the shock units, who win me the game, the rest has to hold it long enough.

This way I can bring 10-12 veterans, this said, I use about 20-24 units for the 22k games. Its pretty easy, as long you dont use only vets ;)

Thank you for sharing your tips, Kocmoc. I didn't make enough Ashi vets early in the game so once I hit rank 10 and open up the last 5 vet slots I'm going to start making some loan swords and a few more vet ashi spears. The inspire bot option is a nice touch. Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by Dionysus9

Thank you for sharing your tips, Kocmoc. I didn't make enough Ashi vets early in the game so once I hit rank 10 and open up the last 5 vet slots I'm going to start making some loan swords and a few more vet ashi spears. The inspire bot option is a nice touch. Thanks again.

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Inspire is the most important ability, alone the huge boost to your missles is awesome. I build my army always with cheap spots and expensive spots.
If you have a too balanced army, you wont have any units to "waste". As example, in a 22k game I got now expensive units, as described above, so I can field one inspire spear-ashi. This cheap unit I move with my archer or with my bow gen. I can block enemy cav with it, it gives inspire and I dont mind to use it as cannonfodder, if needed.

In each game you have to make sure, that you got some "cheap" units you can waste. Especially to block incoming infantry, so your guns can continue to shoot. You will have friendly fire, but if your units are cheaper than the enemy, it will pay off.

I also want to point out, that there are retainer, like +2 defense to spears, which only pay off, if you actual got enough spears.
Same goes for the +3 defense for swords. Whatever you choose, you have to ensure, that you make the retainer count as good as possible.

Those are really great points. With the retainers for -10% price of ashi units and -5% price of all units the basic Ashi spearmen costs only 297. I've been using them quite a bit as cannon fodder lately and also to guard my gunners. Also good for leading charges and absorbing uncoordinated missile fire while the swords come behind.

What retainers do you usually run with? What do you think about the Bad Omen (- morale of enemy ashi) retainer at 22k, based on what other armies you see out there?

Do you put your gunners in skirmish? or do you micromanage their skirmishing? Situational? I was leaving them to hold their positions for that last devastating volley but too often they were getting tangled up in melee so now I'm setting them to skirmish and they aren't getting as many shots in but are usually able to back up through my spears and resume firing.

Maybe my questions are going beyond the original intent of this post but I'm always interested to hear about what successful players are doing.

Could u explain the pointless of bow samurai?
Actually, Im not good at MP but I think bow samurai is really good except the range.
Could u explain it within the comparison between the bow monk and it.
And how about using a rocket unit?
I seriously considered GG vs yari cav+rocket in point a view of the retainer slot and efficiency.

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Originally Posted by shaia

Could u explain the pointless of bow samurai?
Actually, Im not good at MP but I think bow samurai is really good except the range.
Could u explain it within the comparison between the bow monk and it.
And how about using a rocket unit?
I seriously considered GG vs yari cav+rocket in point a view of the retainer slot and efficiency.

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1. I divide the different bow unit by range. The samurai bow is more expensive than the ashi bow and all it got is better accuracy and reload (if you want add some stats)
This said, You can raise the ashi bow with 2x reload and 2x accuracy to a total of 45 reload and 45 accuracy. Now kicks the important point in, the retainer. The 10% retainer for ashi dont help with the samurai bow, but with the ashi bow. Thats the main reason.

Ashi bows with 4 upgrades are good enough to work vs samurai bows, but costs a lot less. In the end your monk bows do the big hits. My monk bows with upgrades run around with 60 reload and 80 accuracy, add inspire and the unit needs about 3-4 volleys to kill a whole ashi or samuray bow unit.
Samurai bows are just not worth it, since my normal 150 range bows are more or less cannonfodder, to give my valuable unit some time to do their job.

Monk bow vs samuray bow. You have to look at it in a bigger context, if you compare it just unit by unit, that the samurai bow will keep moving into the range of the monk bow and the extra 50 range of the monk wont matter.

If you consider the aspect of additional 150 ashi bows, you hardly will move your samurai bow in 100 range (for the ashi) to reach the monk bow. I could move the monk bow back and your samurai bow gets shot by my cheap units. This shows, that you are doomed to shoot at my ashi bows first.
To counter a monk bow, you have to bring a monk bow, else you gonna lose. I have to bring some cheap blocking bows myself, else you can just walk in range and my 200 range wont count.

Rocket unit. Well, I try to stay neutral in this Guide section. But I dont like artillery at all. Im all in favor to ban artillery from the MM landbattles.
Rockets are pretty effective vs cav, especially in medium or large unit-size games, you can block 3-4 enemy cav with one of your own cavs and than just fire with your rocket into the bunched up cav. You lose one, the enemy lose 3-4. Good deal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kocmoc

1. I divide the different bow unit by range. The samurai bow is more expensive than the ashi bow and all it got is better accuracy and reload (if you want add some stats)
This said, You can raise the ashi bow with 2x reload and 2x accuracy to a total of 45 reload and 45 accuracy. Now kicks the important point in, the retainer. The 10% retainer for ashi dont help with the samurai bow, but with the ashi bow. Thats the main reason.

Ashi bows with 4 upgrades are good enough to work vs samurai bows, but costs a lot less. In the end your monk bows do the big hits. My monk bows with upgrades run around with 60 reload and 80 accuracy, add inspire and the unit needs about 3-4 volleys to kill a whole ashi or samuray bow unit.
Samurai bows are just not worth it, since my normal 150 range bows are more or less cannonfodder, to give my valuable unit some time to do their job.

Monk bow vs samuray bow. You have to look at it in a bigger context, if you compare it just unit by unit, that the samurai bow will keep moving into the range of the monk bow and the extra 50 range of the monk wont matter.

If you consider the aspect of additional 150 ashi bows, you hardly will move your samurai bow in 100 range (for the ashi) to reach the monk bow. I could move the monk bow back and your samurai bow gets shot by my cheap units. This shows, that you are doomed to shoot at my ashi bows first.
To counter a monk bow, you have to bring a monk bow, else you gonna lose. I have to bring some cheap blocking bows myself, else you can just walk in range and my 200 range wont count.

Rocket unit. Well, I try to stay neutral in this Guide section. But I dont like artillery at all. Im all in favor to ban artillery from the MM landbattles.
Rockets are pretty effective vs cav, especially in medium or large unit-size games, you can block 3-4 enemy cav with one of your own cavs and than just fire with your rocket into the bunched up cav. You lose one, the enemy lose 3-4. Good deal.

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thanks, it help me out for my decision. but Ive already spend my token to enlarge the range of the bow samurai unit(6 times)T_T

Well, Bow clan is actual a waste. Its the weakest clan right now, especially with those monks who can get upgraded to 200 by everyone.
To have bows hidden or the setup out of the box is pretty weak. Inspire wins you the shotout. The lack of inspire on units for a bow-clan alone make that bow-clan thing a big problem.

Excellent guide, it helped me a lot. One question though, you wrote, that yari samurai aren't very good. Actually my feelings about that unit are quite positive, as it can not just hold against the cavalry, but also chew through ashis, and even hold against the katana samurai for quite some time. For a unit that is cheaper than the katana samurai I find it far more universal and consider them very good flanks protection. My question is, as I'm pretty much a fresh player, do I omit some flaw I'm not aware of?

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Originally Posted by Sartori

Excellent guide, it helped me a lot. One question though, you wrote, that yari samurai aren't very good. Actually my feelings about that unit are quite positive, as it can not just hold against the cavalry, but also chew through ashis, and even hold against the katana samurai for quite some time. For a unit that is cheaper than the katana samurai I find it far more universal and consider them very good flanks protection. My question is, as I'm pretty much a fresh player, do I omit some flaw I'm not aware of?

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Hello Sartori,

its easy explained. Yari samurai, as you described, has some better combat-stats vs. other melee and also moral 10.
The problem is, yari sam costs 700 base, while an ashi costs you 350 Koku.

Now there are 2 basic thoughts on this:

1. The yari sam can only get the 5% discounter retainer, while the ashi also gets the 10% retainer (which means a lot)
2. If you use both retainer (most people do that) you can upgrade an ashi with 4 normal upgrades (2x att and 2x def) and on top (as spear clan) you can get the inspire.
My ashi with 4 normal upgrades and inspire costs a total of 569 Koku. Now do the maths, the ashi costs a lot less, than the yari sam and has 4 extra attack and 6 extra defense.

I personal want to have some cheap units in my army, which I can waste, sometimes you want to block something or give your opponent something to shoot at.
There are also situation, where you want to send a single archer in some woods and want some backup (especially vs. cav), at this point a cheap ashi spear is just great.


Yari sam is not a good unit, the stats are not the best, but the unit is pretty expensive. If you consider, that you pay 50 more and get already a katana sam or a naginata, than you clearly see, that the yari sam is not good. To block cav you simply take the cheaper ashi and done.
I personal go for a bit more spears and still use my loan swords in my center. Enemy cav has a harder time to hit something. This said, I dont need some "spears" to block a cav, I have everywhere 1 or 2 spears, so I dont mind a certain spot.

But again, yari sam dont pay off, to expensive for a anti cav unit and the speed ability is crap as well.

Thank you for your reply. It made some things clear to me now.

Hey Kocmoc

Thank you for this post, it is very interesting :D
I came to think, that you did not mention Naginata Samurais. Is it because they are so silly, that they are not worth mentioning? ;)
The naginata samurai is my favourite unit, but as much as I wanted a good reason to use them, I just cant find one.
Do you sometimes use them or do you know in what kind of army composition they might be good in?

Cosmus