Historical Rome Total War Plan

Ok everyone, I am sure the ones I messaged at TWC know what this thread will be about. For others, well this thread will discuss what HRTW will be about. This is just in general. No specifics, as we will have other threads for that. I want everyone associated with HRTW, that means anyone who contributes to this mod to post in this thread what exactly do they want to see in this mod. I will of course go first by posting what I want to see myself, and the others should post when they see this. We will then take everyone's ideas and views, discuss/debate/consider each one until we have a set plan where everyone involved is happy. Now remember only post exactly what you want in it, and what you want to do for it. I do not want to see vague posts like this:

"I think Scythia should not be in game"
"We should have Mundus Magnus map"
"Let's add Archers to Carthage"

Those will not be accepted ideas or a viewpoints!

If anyone has an idea, argument, etc. I expect them to be clear about it, and give a educated detailed description and/or argument about their concern.

Everyone, I am taking this mod very seriously for now on, and if anyone wants to be involved they should follow suit. So here is a guide to what you should post.

1.Name at TWC (if different from here):
2.What role do you want to partake in this mod? Your options are:

2a.Team Member: Meaning you are dedicated to the mod, will check in on a regular basis, and provide a consistent work flow. Also, list what position you would like to be or fill. Your options for those are these:
a.2D Artist (ranges from, loading screens, faction symbols/banners, signatures, unit skins, and anything else that may apply)
b.3D Artist (mainly making new models for units, editing models of current units, or making Unit Cards/UI's)
c.Mapper (title says it all, ranges from ground textures, heights, climates, regions and anything else that may apply)
d.Coder (someone who will edit the text files, from descr_strat, to edu)
e.Scripter (someone with enough knowledge to script in rebellions, historical events, and anything else that may apply)
f.Researcher (someone willing to research anything and everything, whether it be online, through people, books, or other mods)
g.Historian (someone who believes they have enough knowledge about a specific topic that would be included in HRTW, if you are this you must list what it is you h.have specific knowledge in)
i.Historian/Researcher (the two above positions combined)
j.Tester: someone who tests the work we finish, finds bugs, and gives analysis on the mod
k.Grunt: (doesn't sound like a fun position but it's actually very easy. Anyone can do it, but is recommended for those who are new to modding. Basically you go and download skin packs, unit packs, mini mods, and other little features that improve the RTW game in some way. Little releases like that can add definition to a mod. You would have to download it and post screens and your analysis about it, easy.)

2b. Helper: Meaning you like the mod and its ideas, but cannot commit yourself to it. However you are willing to do some work and/or help when available.
Please list what position you could help with. Depending on how many of us are on the team, you might be contacted regularly for help.

2c. Supporter: Meaning you cannot necessarily contribute to the mod, but you can support it by including a signature and by spreading the word around to new comers and discussion threads. You basically would give us publicity.

2d. Fan/Player/Critic: Does not really need a definition in my opinion.

3. What you want personally to see in this mod. I don't care what it is, I want to hear everyone's opinions. Remember I do not and I repeat DO NOT want a short, meaningless fragment of a sentence. This is a detailed description of what you want to see in HRTW. Make it clean and understandable for everyone to read.

After a few days (so hurry and post!) we will discuss what will be included, edited and taken away.

I shall go first.

I am the leader of HRTW. I Started it back on July 18th, 2011. I have tried to stay consistent with my ideas, but have failed. Well? That ends here on this thread. For whatever is the final decision, I will stick to it! Besides having the title as leader, I do text editing and coding. Most of it is very simple, and I enjoy doing it. It may take forever but it's easy work that creates big differences. I just hate errors. Also I am in charge with public relations. Heck, I'm majoring in Communications at school, so it comes easy to me. I enjoy, talking with other modders, picking their brains about hints and tips. Maintaining friendships with my team mates as best as I can, recruiting new members for the team, asking for help, and promoting the mod as much as I can. My main role is my vision for the mod. Ultimately it comes down to me about what we will be doing, making threads, pointing the team in a direction, and making sure everything is going according to plan. For my first mod ever, I have made many mistakes, but HRTW is still alive and I will never quit on it. My vision has changed many times and it has caused unrest, that is why I'm sticking to the final vision made on this thread.

What ahowl11 wants in HRTW (It's no longer a mystery!)

Wow! Where do I begin? This idea has been in my head for many years. It was not until I discovered the world of modding that I finally acted on it. As a kid I had dreams of my own Rome: Total War. Well in my mind I have found it in HRTW. I believe it is amazing to completely change something made by a professional company, within it's limits of course!
I love RTW vanilla. It's just fun! Very simple. I hate that it is so easy though. I have never completed a full campaign as I get too bored with it. I feel like I'm facing the same armies, putting my cities under auto management and constantly clicking the "End Turn button". Plus I see many historical inaccuracies with the game. As a kid I honestly thought Egypt was using chariots and Pharaohs against the Romans!
So this is what I want to see.

When I hear Historical Rome Total War, I see RTW but historical.

Here is what I see in my mind:

Okay, first of all I believe 280 BC is a perfect date! Who rules Macedon? What will become of Alexander's broken empire? Are the Romans for real, or can Pyrrhus dominate them? Will anyone be as wealthy as Carthage? Celts, Germans, Iberians and Dacians, merely barbaric peoples or are they actually developing major civilizations? Have you heard of the Parthians? They are a scary people, and words out that Bactria will revolt soon! Don't take to the seas unless you want to get robbed by Illyrian Pirates! Have you ever seen an Indian Elephant? They are huge!

The Greco-Roman world in 280 BC was about to change. It signifies the beginning of Roman prominence and the end of Greek domination. The clash of many cultures was inevitable!

So for HRTW I want to see this:
A map that stretches from Iberia and the British Isles all the way to the Punjab and from Scandinavia to the Arabian Sea.
historically accurate factions who are all unique in their own way
A wide variety of units
An AOR system so you aren't recruiting Nubians in Scotland
RS2 Environments (Not very vanilla, but it's a must in my opinion.)
Historically accurate cities that are positioned similar how they were in antiquity and owned by the proper faction in 280 BC
Historical Geography: mountain passes, rivers, lakes, islands etc that were not included in vanilla
BI exe.: meaning i want to see loyalty, culture, and hording features
Vanilla looking units: ok so to be clear: historically accurate uniforms, armor and weapons, just in each faction's colors. The realistic uniforms are nice but in my honest opinion i don't like it. Also the "realistic look" is too dull and boring for my taste. I like my units to be colored and to look bright. Remember the mod is historical, not realistic. The uniforms may be the only ahistorical feature of HRTW, but I wouldn't mind at all. So the models and textures I would like to see are vanilla or at least similar to vanilla.
Economic and Government systems for each faction
Historical Rebellions
Historical Characters, family trees, and generals (to the best of our ability)
Faction symbols and faction colors that resemble each faction historically
Super factions (similar to RS2's free people)
Other small add ons and features that would fit in nicely with HRTW..
Better unit stats so battles are not super short
One version, with other versions being simple fixes
280 BC to 30 BC
4 turn script
Accurate Military systems

I want a map that covers the length of the Roman and Greek world. Parthia is not properly represented in vanilla, the Seleucid Empire is cut off, and the idea of trade with India and Arabia is a myth. With a map encompassing Scotland to India, it would be much more historically accurate.
About the factions, Egypt.. Really? Four Roman factions.. No way! Every faction is totally misrepresented in my mind.
All the units in RTW are very generic. Militia Cavalry? Eastern Infantry? Warband? Such broad titles, for units. I want to see more specific unit names, and more historically accurate armies! Plus the military and recruitment systems are so basic, Nubians should be recruited in Nubia!
The geography of the vanilla map is okay, but not what it could be. Cities are misplaced, and landmarks are missing from the map. I say an end to that. And on the battlemap? RS2 environments are much nicer and enhanced than the original vanilla battlefields.
With the bi exe you can simply do more. It is easier and it's the best out of the three exe's
With economic and government systems, it seems vague. But each faction should have restrictions based on history when it comes to economy.
I want the player to feel like they were living in 280 BC. Pyrruhs was rampaging, Antigonus Saving, Brennus sacking. Real people with real traits is fun!
Each faction has a symbol that defines them that should be enough.
Little model fixes and add ons from the modding community can really take a mod far. I am all for them.
280 BC as I explained before is a great year in my mind for starting a mod. And 30 BC? Well yeah, it was the end of an era for the Romans.
It won't be so quick if we have four seasons in a year though right?
And, yes one version. The whole thing in one. We test as we go and release a huge mod. No more versions. Versions cause confusion and trouble as I have been finding out. Why not add it all into one? So it will take a lot of time. Well, that's what it's all about right?

For those of you that will post your ideas. Please follow the guidelines, and please do not question or argue with someone elses ideas yet, simply put down what you want. There will be much debate after we all say what we want to see. If you have anything personal to say anyone simply PM them with your thoughts. This thread is strictly for what you want to see in HRTW.

Thank you, and be creative! Don't be shy! What do YOU want to see? :)

I had this awesome post (took me 12 minute to write it) and this ...... forum wouldn't let me post it, so i'll make it this time shorter:

All my 12 minutes of writing came to this conclusion. What's the cherry on the pie of this mod? The only thing i see "unique" is the vanilla style units (but beign honest most of early DTW, XC, XGM have vaguely that type of units). That should be the real discussion. What's the special about this? Other than that the features you've posted are possible and don't require a hardcore modding team.

Also, if i may i'd suggest that your discussion would follow this order:
- Period of time covered
- Factions to be included
- Rosters for every faction
- Map
- Codding (traits, ancillaries, scripts, etc). This one is a MUST regarding the order, and should be left at the end, since most scripts require conditions to be met, mostly related to the map and cities on it, so once the map is finished (or almost) this should be disscussed.

Following my above suggestion i will post:
- Roman Republic
- Italic peoples (settlement emergent?)
- Republic of Carthage
- Kingdom of Epirus
- Kingdom of Macedon
- Seleucid Empire
- Ptolemaic Kingdom
- Achaean/Aetolian league (only one)
- Getae
- Arsacid dynasty
- Cimbri
- Arverni
- Aedui
- Bactria (emergent)

Superfactions:
- Celtic people
- Nomad People (far east invasions)
- Independent Kingdoms (mostly city-states)


- Rebels

The above are my ideas for THIS mod.

My suggestions to change: Either move up or down the starting date (280 BC or +-10 years is just too used). Maybe 20 years earlier and we could have a less powerful rome?

Move ahead 62 years and see Hannibal slaughtering roman heads. Antiochus the Great riviving the Seleucid Empire. Scipio Africanus beating the fearless carthaginian soldiers. (honestly, the only good thing about 280 BC is Pyrrus....)

hmm very good point. Well think of all the mods that are out there. Now think of one that sort of combines them together but also keeps it's own identity. I mean there is not one thing that is totally super unique about HRTW but many things from different mods coming together to make a mod that feels complete. Go ahead and post what you want though. This is what the thread is about. What do YOU want to see in it? If your afraid about losing your post simply copy what you typed before you post, that way you don't lose everything :)

Updated my post

I see it! Well let us wait and see about everything. You have some interesting ideas, but I want to wait and see what others post as well. I am not indulging into specifics right now. I will create a thread about factions later, same with units and scripting etc. I just want to see what people have to say. heck i messaged everyone that I knew on TWC about this post so let's hope it gets some action. About the time frame. You have an excellent point, but it will be hard to move me in any direction from 280 BC.. I'm in love with that year right now. If I moved it anywhere, it would be back to the Diadochi Wars.. maybe 300 BC? Samnites were around then. But i'm still set on 280 BC.. however if i see more requests for different start dates, I will be forced to consider and possibly change. C'mon everyone! Post what you want! :)

Diadochi Wars.... I've played DTW, and i liked it, but it still feels that is missing something. That's a good example of "uniqueness". Period: Diadochi Wars (only 1 mod around?, and only the concept, since the dates are the same as yours), and AWESOMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE soundtrack (i know it is hollywood style, but c'on! It just feels epic!). The bad thing was that the music was the only REAL difference, since factions (as i have stated before) are pretty much the same as every other mod around. Well i have stated my POV so, i just wanted to comment on DTW :P
I'll wait until everyone else joins the dusscussion.

Note: A real DTW (right after Alexander's death?) would be the neat

It would be, but you could easily make a sub mod for the Diadochi Wars. That's what is keeping me back. I have an idea that after the grand mod of HRTW is finished, that as a team we make sub mods focusing on specific time frames around the time of the Grand Campaign. You have Phillip and Alexander. The Diadochi Wars, The Roman Conquest of Italy, Hamilco Barca in Iberia, Caesar's Gallic Wars. We could continue HRTW with the Roman Empire. You see HRTW is the central idea of a possibly great project. It's like a series of mods you know? Covering the Roman Time frame. To make it easier on us we just start it off with the grand campaign from 280 BC to 30 BC.. you can add sequel mods and prequel mods to that! So that is why I'm set on 280 BC..

By the way what are you going to be for this mod?
Team Member?
Helper?
Supporter?
Fan?

Everyone please post what you will be for this mod :)

1: Edorix.
2: Archaeologo-historical advisor for the Western Barbarians (1: Britons, 2: Gauls, 3: everything else.)
3: I am in this to try and make sure the barbarian factions are properly represented. The normal way of doing this is to chop them up into individual powerful tribes and then let them fight it out, but this method is no solution, as then no faction can ever represent the whole of a barbarian nation, and with a 21 faction limit, it is impossible to represent every single important tribe. So on the whole I want to stick to the good ol' vanilla Gauls, Iberians, Britons etc - and then within this framework try and work out how best to represent them in-game, first in terms of historical accuracy but with gameplay as a close second. I therefore recommend the following European Barbarian factions:

- Britons (begin as a single tribe, but with expansion will represent all the British tribes on the grounds that there was a shared common identity between them)
- Gauls (includes all continental P-celtic-speaking Hallstatt or La Tene using barbarians, on the grounds that this is who the word referred to in the classical texts)
- Germans (in this case representing them as a single tribe may be preferable as there was originally no shared ethnic identity between all the Germans)
- Dacia (includes Getae - approximately Romania and half of Hungary)
- Celtiberians (central and NW Iberia)
- Iberians (E and S-central Iberia)
- Sarmatians (broadly Ukraine to Hungary)

That's seven factions, one third of the total number of factions, which will fill more than half the map and approximately 2/5 of the map's total population - which is a pretty good compromise between having a Mediterranean focus and correctly representing the barbarians. However, if you do decide to start the game a little earlier, then I would beg the inclusion of the Samnites, who are far too often neglected, but played an absolutely central role in obstructing Rome's rise to power, and as such have a crucial position in terms of both gameplay and historicity.

That's what I want to see in this mod, in a nutshell. You will notice I've only talked about Barbarians. That's because apart from general historical accuracy and game balance, you can do whatever the hell you like with the rest of the world and I won't give (much of) a damn. :P

1. RomeTotalwar, same name as TWC

2. Implementing units into HRTW (coder)

3. I am very low skilled modder, and after trying to implement my first unit i have hit a wall, as i cant figure out where i have gone wrong. Also as this is my first mod to join, i want this to be the one where i develop my modding skills which will be very useful for the future.

4. also i find this mod very intresting as i am a history fanactic, and as this mod is meant to be historical i couldnt ask for any more!! :)

Well, i prefer to start with who am i and why do i think my opinion matters.
I'm hameleona (real name - Nedialko Petrov) from Bulgaria. Currently getting trough my 3rd year of informatics in one of our universities. Got all the way trough one year in Ancient History, but leaved it, when i realized 1/2 of the thing we learn are impassible, and the other 1/2 - pure fiction, based on stuff like 10 stones arranged in a cross. Decided, that i don't want to lose my time in a useless degree.
From when i was 16 (6-7 years ago) i have been deeply interested by game-design. Have been a part in the development of two Bulgarian p'n'p RPG's, and i'm currently finishing my game-book (choose your own adventure stile books, but in my country, they have developed quite further). I was in the team of a football (european) board game, that i have lost track of (the team leader does not work on it anymore). Done a couple of minor systems for some minor games in Bulgaria.

So, what i'm saying is: I know one thing for certain, and that is game design. I've had the chance of working with some of the best game-designers in my country. And that was the way i started modding - i wanted to learn how to enhance the game-play experience of rtw. And more by chance than anything else i came across ahowl on the twc, helped him with some stuff, then made a few units, than... well it went out of control. :lol:

But i has come to a point, when i can't really just do a bunch of units. I want to work on a mod, that i will like in the end. And i have asked a thousand times our leader when historical and game-play collide, what will he choose? And i haven't got a straight answer since. ahowl, may think that it is possible to avoid those collisions, but i know that there is no way to avoid them.

So, enough about me, let me answer the thread.

1. hameleona
2. Modeler, Historian/Researcher (thrace, dacia and getai), Coder. I can do most parts of the modding, even a little mapping, but i'm to lazy to map ;)
3. well, now that is interesting. What DO i want?
Well, i want a well balanced (that does not mean that each faction to be equal to the others), well organized mod with decent historical accuracy. I do not like it when for some not-so-well-known historical accuracy people kill the game-play. EB is a good example for that. RTR is on the border, but still close to the "screwed by historical fanaticism" class.

I'll coment on the factions another time, so that i don't start a big "fight" with Edorix from the start. Manly, cuz i think britons don't deserve to occupy a precious faction-slot. Nothing personal, i think the same for Pontos, Armenia and Dacia - they all become real powers to late to deserve a place in a time-frame, when much greater powers are getting excluded, and game-play elements are left aside (the loyalty system for example). As i said i'll speak for this another time in more details.

Units... Well, the should be historically accurate, but we I'll make them only when we have a full faction list and full roosters for every faction. That is the way i think it will be most efficient way.

And in the end i think, that the mod should be kept as simple as possible.

Thank you, Edorix Rometotalwar, and hameleona! Yes, when it comes to factions we already have a thread for that.
@hameleona, I want both historical accuracy and game play, fanatic history but not so it ruins the game play.
@Edorix, I have many propositions for a faction list. It is tough though especially with the barbarians
@Rometotalwar, don't worry man you will get better!

Keep coming people!

good luck making a good game-play mod when thinking of historical accuracy.

lolIsuck
Will not do a lot, was the old mapper of this project (did nothing at all:P) and will hang around a bit and help where possible

Lord President of Gallifrey
aka Charger Flanker
Position: researcher/historian, but due to time restraints I am only a helper currently

I'll be a helper in any field except modelling (can´t do) and mapping (just not worth it; although i could edit regions if that's mapping enough for you)

Tashio takeda shingin
aka pharoah
i'll be mostly an ideas guy since i'm a bit caught up in my own mod

What i would like to see: historical generals like julius ceasar ptolomie I (forgot rest of name) Hanibal
non savage barbarians like comon everyone knows that barbarians were atleast somewhat civilised and not in the way vanila portrays them.
historical battles like tresamein raphia etc

1: TwoKnives

2: I'm a historian/researcher

3: In this mod, I want to see a single Roman faction. Realistic Egypt. Balanced, fun and historical unit rosters (although some historical inaccuracy may be tolerated for the sake of gameplay). Challenging AI in single player. A multiplayer community. "Barbarians" being portrayed as they should be not as savages. A detailed map and many other things that i dont remember for the moment

Hello everybody,

Let me first say that I agree with most of what ahowl11 said. Maybe because we have already discussed many points and I got him to accept some of my ideas.

My name is Philadelphos and I'm first of all a mapper and a historian. I can contribute to many other fields except texturing.

As a mapper I have already prepared what you need: a completely reworked map from Scotland to India featuring 199 regions with historic borders and loads of accurate mountain passes, rivers, fords, islands, land bridges as well as many other historic features. If you like it, this map is my contribution, my gift for your project. It only needs to be filled with life.

The map is designed for starting 280 BC, so this is perfect. But it would fit even for 300 or 250 BC.

A map that stretches from Scotland to India needs however to have some factions in the East, for example the Mauryans. As a consequence we won't be able to include every Mediterranean faction we'd like. On the other hand we need to increase competition in Greece, in order to avoid that it might be all too easily united. Absolutely necessary is a Greek faction stretching around the Ionian Sea. I think this should be Epirus, since that is historically accurate, especially if we start 280BC. A viable solution for some of the minor powers would be super-factions.
So here is my idea for a faction list:

1. The Roman Republic (former Julii)
2. The Republic of Carthage
3. Kingdom of Macedon
4. Seleucid Empire
5. Ptolemaic Empire
6. Kingdom of Pontus
7. Kingdom of Armenia
8. Mauryan Empire (former Brutii)
9. Parthia
10. Numidia
11. Kingdom of Epirus (former Scipii)
12. Gauls (including the Galatians)
13. Germanic Tribes
14. Iberian Tribes
15. Sarmatian Tribes
16. Balcan Kingdoms (Dacia, Illyria, Thrace ?)
17. Celtic Tribes (including Britons, Belgians and other Celtic tribes scattered over the Alpes and Balcan region)
18. Greek City States (including Syracuse, Massilia, Rhodes)
19. Hellenic Kingdoms (including Pergamum and Sparta)
20. Independent Kingdoms (Senate)
21. Rebels

As you can see, some factions are designed to start in a new and unusual manner, with their possessions scattered over a long range. This should turn out quite challenging. If you play them, you will find it much harder to defend your isolated cities and unite your territories. If you fight them, you might find it easy to conquer one place, but much harder to completely erase them.
Some of the super-factions still need to be discussed, to decide which cities and subfactions should be included. All factions need to have at least two (better three) cities. This excludes mini-factions such as the Aetolian or Achaean League standing alone. Though they would contribute to historical accuracy, in gameplay they will not be working. In any case we lack the slots.

Other desirable features are more accurate historic leaders and a better naming system. I have already worked on these two points preparing accurate family trees for the Hellenistic kingdoms and other factions such as the Mauryans.

So I think historic detail should be the starting point of the mod, but one thing is even more important: gameplay. The game should be balanced and challenging even if this means sometimes sacrifice historic accuracy. Let me explain my special thoughts on this point, because they might be a way to avoid some of the usual rows between players and historians.

I would like to start from the assumption that TIME IS RELATIVE in this mod. That means I don't want to hear people complaining that Epirus with starting date 280 can't have an army in Sicily, because Pyrrhus got there only three years later. The same way I don't want to hear people arguing that Carthago Nova, Lugdunum, Londinium, Mogontiacum were all founded much later. What should we do? Name the town vicus Chatti? We don't even know where that tribe lived around 280 BC! Large regions of Europe were completely unknown by 280 BC. So we need to accept that certain regions enter history at a later stage, but then they are not less important and we should represent them with the cities, tribes and leaders during their finest hour. I'm convinced that this is what players are most of all looking for. They want to have leaders such as Scipio Africanus and Hannibal Barca and they don't care much if he is born 280 or 247.
Therefore we need to accept that time is somehow relative in any scenario we can imagine. It's not so bad in any case. We can be quite accurate in the Eastern and Hellenic area and then slightly shift to a younger stage while moving west and north. Most players won't even notice, since when they start in the East their expansion will take quite a while before reaching Gaul or Britain. But even in the Hellenic area we should not make a case of the starting year. We might find that a certain town/region in that very year belonged to one power and two years later it was conquered and became a permanent stronghold for another one, maybe for a century or more to come. Then it would be stupid to give it to the first power and risk that the conqueror and historically most important owner never got in. So we should have a general look on what each power possessed in a longer term and not only in the year 280 BC. Time is relative, at least much more than great powers' political essentials and military goals!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philadelphos

I would like to start from the assumption that TIME IS RELATIVE in this mod.

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I know that the argument above totally destroys my previous posts regarding factions, however i must admit that this is by far THE BEST contribution for this mod. Also i want to point out that to meyour list is too much focused on the greek world.

Thank you, Xpartacus! I don't want to destroy your previous idea, but I want to find a solution for stale discussions that tend to destroy all efforts. If you look for example at Tashio takeda shingin's post, he wants to have three generals from three different periods. I don't think that time doesn't matter at all, but we need a little more flexibility to give the people what they want. I'm glad you understood that right.

As regards the factions list, you are right that it's focussed on the Greek world, but there are some good reasons. First of all the game is centered and starts in the Hellenistic period. Second, my map is centered on that period too. That means, I have tried to include all major hellenistic cities and as a consequence we have loads of regions in Greece, Asia Minor, Sicily and so on. In order to have more regions in the center, I have cut a bit in the peripheric areas. I think there is actually no use having two or three regions in Scandinavia, when there was barely a village. Let me make it clear that my map is really equilibrated in all its parts, but the Barbarian areas have less cities, while the central parts are pretty crammed. These regions need to be covered and the faction list has to take this into account.

As regards the details of the list, what I regret most is that there is currently no slot for Bactria. We thought of adding them to the Hellenic or the Independent Kingdoms. Others such as Bithynia, Cimmerian Chersonesus, Nabataea, Cyrene, Mauretania could be added there too. But this is more a question of fine tuning, because if we make those minor kingdoms to strong in their area they will prevent the major powers from expansion. Some, like Nabataea, might even prevent arch-enemies like the Seleucid and the Ptolemaic from clashing with each other. So usually these subfactions won't have more than one or maybe two cities from the start.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philadelphos

Thank you, Xpartacus! I don't want to destroy your previous idea, but I want to find a solution for stale discussions that tend to destroy all efforts. If you look for example at Tashio takeda shingin's post, he wants to have three generals from three different periods. I don't think that time doesn't matter at all, but we need a little more flexibility to give the people what they want. I'm glad you understood that right.

As regards the factions list, you are right that it's focussed on the Greek world, but there are some good reasons. First of all the game is centered and starts in the Hellenistic period. Second, my map is centered on that period too. That means, I have tried to include all major hellenistic cities and as a consequence we have loads of regions in Greece, Asia Minor, Sicily and so on. In order to have more regions in the center, I have cut a bit in the peripheric areas. I think there is actually no use having two or three regions in Scandinavia, when there was barely a village. Let me make it clear that my map is really equilibrated in all its parts, but the Barbarian areas have less cities, while the central parts are pretty crammed. These regions need to be covered and the faction list has to take this into account.

As regards the details of the list, what I regret most is that there is currently no slot for Bactria. We thought of adding them to the Hellenic or the Independent Kingdoms. Others such as Bithynia, Cimmerian Chersonesus, Nabataea, Cyrene, Mauretania could be added there too. But this is more a question of fine tuning, because if we make those minor kingdoms to strong in their area they will prevent the major powers from expansion. Some, like Nabataea, might even prevent arch-enemies like the Seleucid and the Ptolemaic from clashing with each other. So usually these subfactions won't have more than one or maybe two cities from the start.

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Haha i know your intention wasn't that one, but for the sake of this mod i believe that is a really good argument. Now, i've seen the map you're talking about (BTW good work), and i almost would agree 100% with you sir regarding your arguments above, however as a player myself too, i think the only way to achieve the kind of focus you want is with a larger scale map. Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying your map is wrong at all, i'm saying is uses vanilla RTW map scale, wich doesn't totally makes justice to the greek factions (wich is a very good idea, but the space isn't enough IMO).

I understand what you say. Indeed the map scale is a very delicate decision. And you are right, when you say that space in the Peloponnesus and in some other places doesn't seem to be enough. On the other hand in Asia and Sarmatia the spaces between cities are even too large. Unfortunately our stage is divided between tiny city states and huge territorial empires. A larger scale would not resolve this. Unless, and that's a totally different pair of shoes, we decide to concentrate on a small part of the current map, excluding Spain, England, northern Europe and most of Asia. But even in this case it is not said that a larger map would bring a better game play. I think for the best game play the ideal distance between two cities is what can be covered by an infantry or a cavalry unit in one turn. Now we have some areas where distances are below and others where they are above that value. And I think that it should be like that.
I remember the Medieval Rome TW scenario for the Byzantine empire which had a much larger scale. I don't want to say that it was all bad (the map was great), but I abandoned it immediately because it took years to encounter an enemy or even transfer your own armies from one city to another. At least they should have added more cities, I guess.

So I agree that my map doesn't totally make justice to the Greek factions, but at least it does partially, which is all we can hope for if we want to include areas like Spain and Parthia.

I want to answer to another argument that was brought up by you and Edorix. I mean the inclusion of the Samnites.
We have to consider that the scenario covers a time frame going from maybe 300 to 30 BC. Now the Samnites were already defeated by 290 BC and they never recovered. This should be enough to exclude them (They could be included though in a scenario about the Diadoch wars). But there are even stronger arguments against them. One is that they would prevent Rome and Pyrrhus from clashing. Even more important is the fact that this scenario is on the rise of Rome which was, whatever you may think about it, the most important historic fact in the timeframe covered. Now my experience from test runs is that it is already hard enough to get the Romans expanding at all. You can put their armies in front of Genua or Rhegium and often enough they won't even take that first test. We need to put the ai on a road to Roman expansion (without making it to easy for the human Roman player) and to this purpose it is absolutely not helpful create more obstacles in their backyard. If you want to put up some challenge in Italy keep to historic facts of the 3rd century BC: Tarentum (Pyrrhus) and the Gauls in Cisalpina. Maybe we could make Samnium more rebellious than other Italian regions though?

Hi.My Name is Skull.

And first...We have went thro a long ride,havent we?
Just remembering that this mod was suppose to be a small mod of Vannila,with some historical fixes and some new units...
Now,the idea has changed alot,aint it...

My job on this mod was skinning,and a lot of supporting.But eventualy my internet was cut off and shortly afterwards,my hard drive died,and while that was going on,the mod lost one of it's best members,Primo.
He had a almost finished version of 1.0 done,but he left mysteryosly...
He also sent me that version of the mod,I don't know did the other members get it tho...

And...well...you know the rest,I think...


And,ahowl,are you shure that we can get this big?
And I am against a total convension of all rousters.
Changing a rouster by 50-60% is OK.

My question:
Why don't we use Primos 1.0 modfolder for the base?

I agree with you again Mr. Philadelphos. In my personal opinion there's no way to get a balanced map, not at least within the harcoded limits (either by map size, number of factions, etc). The best thing one can expect to do with any map is to be able to balance iT by tweakin (playing around) with avaible regions, natural barriers, diplomacy, etc, and from your thread about your map looks like you have done that by the ammount of time invested on it.

Upload Primos' mod to the HRTW works thread. We can see what we had finished and port it to our mod now

@ahowl - I just checked.
They are all dead...:(

Yup...Those links are dead for a long time...I tryed 2 months ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asgaroth

Yup...Those links are dead for a long time...I tryed 2 months ago.

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Imas li te fajlove na kompijuteru?

Quote:

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Imas li te fajlove na kompijuteru?

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Do you have the files on your computer ?


Nemam ništa..Crkao mi komp nakon šta mi je on to dao pa se sve izbrisalo.

I don't have anything...My computer broke down after he sent me the files and they were all deleted.

well unless he comes back we will have to go without. It's ok, we are starting fresh anyways right? I feel like it's much more organized than before.

Ozman
Team member

Mapper & Regions and cities researcher
Traits and Ancillaries apprentice
Codder


What i would like to see? No more "that's not vanilla" discussion and only 1 version for the mod. Any other stuff that makes it in to the mod is welcomed by me.

I have no discussion regarding factions or anything else, i would like to just point out my toughts about what should be kept from vanilla:

- Low polygon count for units (low edge pc's friendly).
- Faction colors. Maybe not the whole clothing, since that looks bad, my suggestion for the modellers and texturers is to do is reduce the faction color "area" of the clothes, to maybe some strips here and there, so that we have not a cartoonish style unit (as i said, a suggestion).

Things to improve (think bigger, and think real)
- Help the AI trough some scripts (the basic ones are population control system and money helpers)
- Not going so deep regarding the realism of this mod (realism simulator??:dizzy2:), i liked the post of a fellow mapper (Philadelphos is his name?) saying that time is relative here; so not just restrain ourselves to the events and factions happening exactly at 280 BC.
- The one above goes with this: Keep the game feeling, after all that's what this is after all.:bounce:

If he sent the message by e-mail you should be able to retrieve it on your mail server (unless you canceled it). At least worth trying.