FM/regions ratio - client rulers: do they count as FM´s now or not?

FM (birth rate)/regions ratio - client rulers ..do they count as FM´s now or not?

in order to find information about what to do best to increase the chances for FM´s to have children i found some threads pointing out that the FM´s/regions ratio is the most dominant factor.

and further: the question if Client rulers count in this regard as FM´s or not. (i mean push up the FM number though not listed as such in the familiy tree)

spent some time in finding some definite answer - but found very differing opinions ..and still dont know now if they do.

in my current KH campaign i use quite a lot of Client Rulers (in distant provinces) and i planned to change the Government to a type III there only when they die and everything there is ready for that change. ..but until then - im not so sure anymore after reading those threads if this is such a good thing.

..especially my original KH Families (Agiads, Eurypontids and Aithalids) often (not only in one campaign) have troubles to keep the bloodline.

well i only discovered lately that it is possible to swap retinue (which makes this game again much more fun) - so docters or herbalists (i guess both have the same effect on that?.) are available.


a second question is: the use of adoption - is this also some thing which prevents the original (or maybe all) Families to get own children?



much obliged,

Kleitos

Afaik they do count towards the limit.

Adoptees prevent the Guys they get adopted by getting children and ... well count towards the limit(tho I think you guessed that). A guy can only have 4 kids, Dead and Adopted FMs also count towards this.

thanks you very much Ca Putt! didnt know that - the four children limit and that those adoptees prevents the Benefactors to get their own. ...i only guessed that lately - but good to hear that.

actually i made much use of adoption in all of my campaigns - to use them as Governors.

so no wonder why in some of my campaigns the primary Dynasties died off. :cry2:

regarding the Client rulers - maybe someone knows about these too.?
if some detailed info helps: in my mentioned campaign now it´s 240BC and i have
9 Client Rulers and Generals
76 FM´s (all together - incl. children, wifes) and
41 regions controlled

will count, in case only the grown male FM´s count to that ratio (?), those separately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kleitos

FM (birth rate)/regions ratio - client rulers ..do they count as FM´s now or not?

in order to find information about what to do best to increase the chances for FM´s to have children i found some threads pointing out that the FM´s/regions ratio is the most dominant factor.

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I am pretty confident that it is the only factor that counts in the end. Fertility definitly doesn't change anything here, at best defines which one of the FM will have the next child. The exact ratio is a myth hidden somewhere inside the code, but my observation is:

- unconnected generals, such as client rulers or recruited generals, do count, definitly.
- woman do not count, so it seems. Agents, such as diplomats, do not count, definitly.
- when the ratio is "extremly low" you are granted with adoptions (I would suggest to reject them unless you are in danger of your family tree dying out; see below why)
- when the ratio is "rather low" you have a lot of briths, mostly boys
- male children under age don't seem to count either. So in this situation the game keeps on bombarding you with sons even though the current number will already be much to much when they all come of age.
- When the ratio is about even or silghtly positive you still have a considerable ammount of births, but more girls than boys.
- When you have more (male and of age) FMs and generals than settlements you only have few births, and those are mostly grils.
- The ratio also affects the ammount of suitors or the frequency with which suitors re-appear when you had rejected one (that's why you rather get girls when already having a sufficient ammount of FMs). I also have the impression that the ratio affects the age of the suitors, insofar that you see more grandpas asking for your 12-years old daugthers when already having more FMs (per settlements). It does not affect the quality/traits of the suitors. That's entirly controlled by EDCT.
- It also does not affect how old generals become. Most die with exact 60 years, unless you play with the Alex.exe

thanks very much konny for your answer ... so i have again some things i´ll do different in the next campaigns. ..and again a next campaign can be quite different because of that - thats what i like so much in this great mod.

no adoptions anymore, and less Client rulers.

i counted my FM´s ... thought so that only the grown male do count for that.

30 grown males
8 Client rulers/Generals ...one just died in battle
42 Regions now

30 grown females
8 boys
8 girls

actually i cannot complain now in this campaign but specially in one of my last Gaul Campaigns ..i adopted too much ...the original Arverni or Aedui Families died out or only had few weak choices for a faction heir. ..also in one KH campaign when the Agiads really died out.

but is fertility (docters, hetairas and what not) really something one can forget? ..was so happy now when i incidentally discovered here in some thread that retinues are exchangeable.

Someone wrote here that every faction has it's own FM/settlement ratio, that explains why macedonians always become crazy breeders (almost every FM has at least 3 offspring) and gauls always struggle to have 1/2 ratio.

I am intrested why factions have differing withdraws from public life (becoming unmarriageable) triggers, for example with Carthage I had 10 40 to 50 years old women who most likely couldn't reproduce anymore but wouldn't withdraw so they just took those slots which I really needed for male carthies to have my own hannibal, having some sharp/uncharismatic/brokes his every bone when he lays down FM's doesn't quite cut out for it.

regarding the gauls i have the same feeling.

..what do you mean with withdraw from public life (wouldn´t withdraw) ?
do i understand it right: you really have 10 women 40 to 50 years old who aren´t married? ..i cant remember a campaign when i even had one women older than 35 who weren´t married.

Non-marriage of female FMs happens quite often, especially if your empire goes through a FM boom, especially if your male children come of age in the span of a few years. You may go years without births or marriage proposals after that for the female children. Unless you expand dramatically. If you play a slow-paced game this will be less of a problem than when you try to blitz the entire game.

For a large empire, the ratio of FM / provinces will be lower as well compared to smaller factions. Thus a challenge with expansion is that you will have relatively fewer family members to go out on conquering sprees or governing difficult to control cities.

not really, as seleucids i control about 150 provinces and have 400 family members but thats including women/children and client rulers. Still thats more than enough fms

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Originally Posted by konny

- unconnected generals, such as client rulers or recruited generals, do count, definitly.

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While I agree with you on your other observations, I highly disagree with this one. I never had the feeling that Client Rulers count to the FM limit. In my last Romani campaign I heavily used Client rules. Nearly all cities outside of Italy were controlled by Client rulers but my Families are big and still growing in Number, with 2-4 children for every FM.

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Originally Posted by Kleitos

regarding the gauls i have the same feeling.

..what do you mean with withdraw from public life (wouldn´t withdraw) ?
do i understand it right: you really have 10 women 40 to 50 years old who aren´t married? ..i cant remember a campaign when i even had one women older than 35 who weren´t married.

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For me it gets increasingly difficult to roleplay my family tree if I let all my female FM's marry suitors who don't have ethnicity I require (it's feels somewhat stupid to play carthage if 3/4 of your FM's are puno-celts, puno-iberians etc etc).

Retiring from public life event is something that happens with most factions when their female FM's reach 40 years or so. After that happens they are taken away from the family tree as if they had died, their pictures change looking same as those ones who have really died.

well obviously the question if those client rulers count is still an issue ;-)

..but to be sure i wanna try with using less of them now in future - see what happens with the birth rate.

here on the main site https://www.europabarbarorum.com/features_traits.html is a link to a powerpoint presentation where i found for instance this:

"The game seems to be set to 'prefer' about 2-3 provinces to every general. More generals than that, and you won't get many new family members."
i found nothing there about the client rulers - but actually i can´t remember having this ideal ratio - so much provinces and so few generals.

regarding non marriage of female FM´s - i really had no experience with that yet. ..also never played Carthage, so i dont know the ethnicities there.

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Originally Posted by Rahl

While I agree with you on your other observations, I highly disagree with this one. I never had the feeling that Client Rulers count to the FM limit. In my last Romani campaign I heavily used Client rules. Nearly all cities outside of Italy were controlled by Client rulers but my Families are big and still growing in Number, with 2-4 children for every FM.

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Client rulers are just script spawned FMs, internally the two are indistinguishable as they are the same character type. Konny is correct, they do count towards the birth rate.

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Originally Posted by bobbin

Client rulers are just script spawned FMs, internally the two are indistinguishable as they are the same character type. Konny is correct, they do count towards the birth rate.

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But then why did I have 20+ FMs with around 45 provinces and 30+ Client Rulers and still a good amount of male children? Something must be wrong there, either the 2-3 provinces per male FM ratio or that Client Rulers are counted as FMs.
As far as I understood, Client Rulers are spawned Generals which are a feature of Alexander: Total war and the last patch for Rome? Are those Generals really the same as FMs?

The ratio is not known, it certainly isn't one FM per 2-3 provinces otherwise most factions on the EB map would die off within a generation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rahl

But then why did I have 20+ FMs with around 45 provinces and 30+ Client Rulers and still a good amount of male children? Something must be wrong there, either the 2-3 provinces per male FM ratio or that Client Rulers are counted as FMs.

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(according to my observation) The ratio is around one general per province, so having 50 generals with 45 provinces is perfectly fine for the engine.

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As far as I understood, Client Rulers are spawned Generals which are a feature of Alexander: Total war and the last patch for Rome? Are those Generals really the same as FMs?

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No. Spawned characters (as well as recruited generals and characters not connected to the family tree in descr_strat) cannot become faction leader. So when all FMs but those are dead your faction will die out for being incapable of providing a faction leader. They are already part of the RTW.exe (can't speak of the resprective patch) and were also used in BI.

BTW, the game considers recruited generals as adopted. So when you recruit a general he will get all traits that otherwise adopted characters get.

i only have one doubt konny

i understand that barbacues are important since they can be used in parties and all that but i never imagined grils to be that important in the matters of reproduction

imho you should give less attention to the bratwurrst on the grill and start concerning more about girls but thats just me :X

(/lame attempt at being funny)

whatever you are consuming, try to get clean ASAP.....

script spawned? I think at lastest 1.2 you recruit your own client ruler instead of they spawned?