No Gun Shogun: A Self-Proclaimed Suicidal Campaign in Futility

I admire your idea, but if you try this on brutal difficulty, you will be erased in few turns.
I play this since good old STW, I even played and finished the first buggy version. But I have never finished a campaign in S2tw :no:

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

New rule: If I see a foreign veteran and assassination is feasible, it must be attempted. Feasible is defined as: above a 35% success rating, a suitable agent of my own within range to strike on that turn or the next, enough money that it won't get in the way of very important plans. Tom Cruise must die!

I started writing, and decided to change direction a little. Back to the beginning. I think the new idea works better. You'll see ...

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I object! You should try to assasinate any Foreign Veteran, unless its name is Nathan Algren.
If you find Nathan Algren, send your Daimyo's Geisha sister to convert him :laugh4:

Phew! Yesterday's patch has fixed the game. I've got an hour or so today, I'll see how far I can get.

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Originally Posted by Yesugey

I admire your idea, but if you try this on brutal difficulty, you will be erased in few turns.
I play this since good old STW, I even played and finished the first buggy version. But I have never finished a campaign in S2tw :no:

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If I played on legendary I'd probably die before the mid-game. The save limitations on that mode always make me nervous about losing the save file to an accident, and I end up playing poorly because I'm not concentrating. I should be able to give a good showing on hard though; I've already won several campaigns on that level, one of which was in FotS. The handicaps will make this game quite a bit harder than a normal FotS game though. If I die, I hope it's entertaining for people to watch.

If you want to see a real Shogun genius in action, take a look at Maltz's legendary difficulty Mori game report. He's scarily good at the game, and he gives a lot of advice in-between the story sections. It's very educational reading. I've learned a lot from him myself.

I played a few turns, made some progress. We've already reached our first hiccough: the Jozai.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attac...9&d=1335981268
That's the current situation. It's turn ... 9? 10? Something like that.

I have allied with Nagaoka and Sendai in order to keep them off my back. The Jozai have sprawled across three provinces, sprinting out the gate very aggressively across territories we wanted. They are currently rated very friendly and are shogunate in loyalty. That prompts two questions: how badly do we want those provinces, and do we trust them not to flip sides? I could ally with them and head in a different direction, or proceed with the original plan and risk getting ganged up on.

The pink people in Kozuke are Imperialist pig-dog-chicken-scum! War is only a matter of time. That province is not so appealing; it's poor and it will stretch our puny army far too thin. Fighting them gains us very little. However they are well positioned to dogpile us in the flank if we pursue the Jozai. I could attempt to cause a revolt in the province, get it to fall into rebel hands. The odds of success are very low however, and money is tight. The Yonezawa in Uzen are a little perilous too. Whilst still Shogunate in loyalty, they refuse to trade with me and are becoming increasingly unfriendly. War is an increasing possibility. I currently have no army to cover that border! Uzen is quite a nice province, excellent farmlands and a special which grants bonuses to traditional units.

I'm currently making a shade over 1,200 koku per turn. A level 3 farm is 3 turns from completion in our capital, and a cottage industry is 2 turns from completion in our new province. Both will boost our income significantly. I have also researched the first economic tech, and and almost done with the one which grants a 10% boost to farming income.

Army replenishment rates are punitive. Our precious starting samurai units can only replace 5 men per turn. Including them in the heaviest areas of combat is critical to our success, so this slowness makes our situation quite fragile. We need access to a dojo ASAP. My original thought was to place the dojo in Hitachi as that will make it easy to load new units onto ships ... but it might be nice to have a dojo prior to taking on the Jozai. Our starting province still has a semi-useless police station; I'm tempted to demolish it and replace it with either a dojo or an income building.

So, generals, how should we react to the situation which has evolved?

I would turtle in Shimotsuke, build a decent stronghold and station some troops there. Create two stacks of army and go north, taking Miyagi, Uzen, Iwate and Ugo. Eventually Aomori, to secure borders from Matsumae, not sure how much of a stink they will put up. If Jozai attack, you can lure them to your stronghold and kill them off, but in manual battles. Once you got the four above mentioned provinces (all fertile provinces, mind you!) you should have a substantial financial backing to continue your conquest towards south. However, this all depends on the strength of armies in the said provinces.

Slightly off topic, but how do you determine how many units per turn you can train in one province? I started of with Jozai in my last campaign, and I could train three units simultaneously. Several turns later, I could train only two at the same time. What factors are in that equation, except the size of the city (or was it the fort)?

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Originally Posted by Voigtkampf

Slightly off topic, but how do you determine how many units per turn you can train in one province? I started of with Jozai in my last campaign, and I could train three units simultaneously. Several turns later, I could train only two at the same time. What factors are in that equation, except the size of the city (or was it the fort)?

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It's based on the troop recruitment buildings. The castle provides the 1 slot every province has. A cadet school, dojo, and cannon range will all add 1 more slot as soon as they are constructed. Upgrading buildings does not increase the slots available. The capital always has one extra slot. I think there's one event which provides a temporary extra slot.

I think you should scout Jozai with your agent and take them out if you have the better army. You don't want them expanding to the West and taking YOUR rightful provinces (esp. Musashi). :)

Is Uzen the purple province? As a troop production province, it would only be useful if you were using your navy to take provinces on the the North coast. Walking troops from Uzen will take a long time and this is a short campaign. Those northern provinces are so far away from everything without a railroad. As a money making province it's a good idea, as long as your neighbors stay friendly.

I still like the idea of attacking South and West and creating a troop production province near Musashi.
I really like the idea of having the clump of provinces around Musashi and Hitachi as your core because they are fairly small and it will take fewer turns to move troops around.

edit - ultimately, I think you should first expand into the area where you want your core production facilities.

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

If you want to see a real Shogun genius in action, take a look at Maltz's legendary difficulty Mori game report. He's scarily good at the game, and he gives a lot of advice in-between the story sections. It's very educational reading. I've learned a lot from him myself.

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Thanks for the link, I will definitely check that. I think I know my problem, Im blitzing like I did in the old TW series. We'll see.

Two very different strategies! I'll give it another day to see if a third general arrives to break the deadlock.

This is half the fun - I know what I'd do, but that's not necessarily what others would do. Playing with occasional reader input means I cannot stick to my comfortable old strategies.

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Originally Posted by phred

Is Uzen the purple province?

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Yes, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Yesugey

Thanks for the link, I will definitely check that. I think I know my problem, Im blitzing like I did in the old TW series. We'll see.

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Blitizing is still possible, but it's harder now. You need to hit the right notes with your research, unit production, and expansion rates. Fail to do so, and your empire will collpase or the AI will roll over you because you lack the resources to resist. The Oda clan are the kings of the blitz - their superior ashigaru let them shred the opposition until the AI begins fielding pure samurai armies. The last patch introduced 40v40 battles, and that made the Oda ashigaru rush even more powerful. Jarmam has written a good breakdown of that, if you're interested. Rushing with other clans is harder.

I'm a slow, steady player by nature. I couldn't rush if my life depended upon it! :gring:



I wanted to include a few other pictures in the report post. Technical problems with the org's image hosting service made it impossible for me to upload them. Now that the problem is solved, here's the picture which sets the flavour for the campaign:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attac...4&d=1336239450
Beauty and destruction ...

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

here's the picture which sets the flavour for the campaign:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attac...4&d=1336239450
Beauty and destruction ...

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Is this good or bad for the Aizu?
Either way the following report will be eventful.

Apologies. I started a new job on the 8th and the amount of things I've needed to sort out has been rather insane. If I don't get chance to post an update before the weekend, I'll definitely post one during.

Hi, just thought I'd share some thoughts I had while playing my own No-Gun campaign (just on hard difficulty, not Legendary I'm not as courageous as you haha):

• I think it is possible to beat the campaign without ever going up a modernization level (At least, that's what I'm trying). The traditional dojo provides recruitment slots, and the traditionalists have an economic building, the Inn. Add to that farm upgrades, plus income from various copper mines, iron mines, etc and you have the makings of a respectable economy.
• In the early game I mostly built Yari Kachi, with a few Matchlock Kachi to back them up. The Yari Kachi have good enough morale to survive a few gunfire volleys and if they get into melee with early-game infantry they usually prevail. Spear Levys are pretty terrible in my opinion, their morale value means they'll probably run before they reach the enemy and their melee attack is only a little bit better than Levy Infantry.
• Bows have both a longer range than guns and can arc over obstacles unlike guns, which gives you a good advantage in sieges. On the attack you can simply snipe the enemy without fear of retaliation, and on the defence you can hit the enemy long before they can hit back.
• Kisho ninjas are great for evening out a fight by taking out artillery and Gatling guns.
• In the mid game at least, in an open battle, you can't go wrong by massing Katana Kachis and just charging at the enemy! Like Yari Kachi, they have good enough morale to keep going forward into gunfire and even if only half makes it to the enemy they will devastate them.

Well, enough rambling, hope you find this useful. Good luck!

Welcome @telas.

It seems your entire tactics revolve around 'the glorius charge'. So I assume defensive battles are a problem.
Also can a traditional army of the same size/value prevail against a modern one?
Artillery are incredibly important in FotS. How do you minimize the damage from enemy artillery?

A Tom Cruise campaign? :D

Welcome, telas, and thanks for sharing your experience. :bow:

I'm sorry about the delay in progressing this game. :embarassed: The commute for my new job is proving to be insane - I'm reliant on public transport and the bus service is so useless that I'm now looking for a safe route to walk the 4 miles home! I've only really got time to play games at the weekend, and the last couple of weekends have been busy.

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Originally Posted by Peasant Phill

Welcome @telas.

It seems your entire tactics revolve around 'the glorius charge'. So I assume defensive battles are a problem.
Also can a traditional army of the same size/value prevail against a modern one?
Artillery are incredibly important in FotS. How do you minimize the damage from enemy artillery?

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The artillery can be taken out quickly, providing you have "kisho ninja" units. They can be deployed at the start of the battle, outside (white borders will appear) the usual battle prep area (yellow box). And use their stealth ability to run behind artillery units, and hack through them. In an attack, you will have to do this with precision, as the artillery will be close to the main army and your ninja's will be vulnerable, so a massed charge with your main melee army, while ninjas creeping behind the artys might reduce your casualties and save your ninjas getting overwhelmed by the main enemy army, while they try to eliminate the arty units.

p.s: presently playing as the Republic of Satsuma, N/N (I'm not an elite player), but heavily depend on samurai and ninja units for Castle siege attacks. I kinda like the mixed army of 4-6 Katana/yari + 1-2 Kisho Ninja + 1-2 Bow kachi + 4-6 Rep. Infant + 2 Armstrong + 1-2 Gatling and rest Yari Ki :)

I would give this scenario a shot too very soon.

I am not sure if I would use the same rules of @frogbeastegg though. Shogunate never abandoned guns and technologies. And Spear Levy is totally useless even against Levy infantry. So I might not be using all-nontech units.

But I might always try to be under Development Research Level 1, for example. I think it's impossible because you advance after you complete the tree, but nevertheless. And all my decisions must be simple minded and conservative. (No alliance with nanbans, always pick the side of locals etc.)

We will see, if I lay low and make agreements, and wait for long time before take action... Why not? I believe it's possible to swarm the enemy from the sides with Kachi's, since AI makes mistakes.

I will take a look after I finish my Choshu Campaign, which turned greatly.

Interesting.. Coincidentally, yesterday I engaged with an army full of Shogitai, including 4 Yari Ki, 2 matchlocks, 1 bow and 1 Katana Samurai and 2 Kisho Ninjas, with my Line Infantry & Conscript Riflemen based army. And I lost the battle, even though I used kneel fire and Ganbatte ability..

I preferred a single line firing range, because I was sure that kneel fire will win the day. So when they get close, I shot one or two volleys and killed most of them, but after they got close, it turned to a bloodbath just like in the movie "The Last Samurai".

They surely got decimated too, 250 survivors on their side to 200 of mine. And I played very badly. But at the end they won.

I know it's impossible to say "No Gun Shogun" is possible only by the result of one battle.. But there sure is hope!

Looking forward to another update further down your campaign path, Yesugey.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

Looking forward to another update further down your campaign path, Yesugey.

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Thanks mate, my current campaign with Choshu actually gives me a lot of hints to how to succeed.

Yesterday I experienced that archers still decimates line infantry. They are short in numbers but they rain death from longer range and even they might be losing on one-to one, they have a good change of winning on army-scale battles. they may cause mass rout by hitting the enemy unit by unit. Especially with the threat of Horsemen. (Not the attack itself, but the threat of it. I believe only appearance of them at the rear would worry the enemy enough)

I think I might allow myself to only upgrade the techs not modern look alike. Like farms, or taxes maybe.

I decided to allow myself to use the wooden cannons though. They look primitive and useless enough to be allowed :laugh4:

I gave it a try with Aizu on Legendary, and it looks very promising.

At turn 1, I disbanded all my riflemen, including matchlocks. I trained 7-8 Spear levies instead. It was not disastrous at all, in fact I was still able to win the battle against two Imperial clans, ally with my northern neighbors and we destroyed several clans.

I made a mistake by having one I just beat as vassal so I might be starting again. But looks very promising.

But of course, I must be careful, still. I see even the riflemen with worst skills is able to kill one third of a unit in single volley, it means one mistake, and my army would melt under fire.

Ok everything turned out awesome for me. I now have 3 provinces around turn 40, only by using spearmen.

You see, you get a lot of sympathy bonuses because of the Shogunate-Imperial thing. Once you get strong alliances thanks to +75 allegiance bonus, even your fellas cut each other's throat around you, they don't even think lose friendliness towards you.

Moreover, even you don't use guns, your alliance members do. I am in completely safe zone, surrounded with Shogunate clans. I had to go Aizu to the small island close to Tosa, just to attack someone.

So after I survived from few critical turns, looks like Shogunate might win the battle without my help anyway.

I had to use the ships, as FrostbeatEgg already mentioned. You can't move your army or maintain your facilities because of bombardments. So ignore I use ships to move around, block passages or sink other ships. (I don't use Naval bombardment on Campaign Map of Battle Map of course)

I am fighting against Tosa now. If I don't make a mistake, soon No Gun Shogun will become real.

Attachment 17376

It's a battle I played myself. I was almost losing it, but killed the general at the last minute. I had the number advantage though.

But the game gone crazy, as usual. After eliminating Jozai, Edo, the strongest Shogunate clan went Imperial! It's obvious that there is an algorithm forces the clan to change allegiance, just to make the game harder. (It actually makes the game annoying.) Now I am at war with Edo and few other strongest Shogunate Clans.

My only hope is that once I become the Vanguard, they will rally under my flag and things will make sense again. We will see.

* I hit a problem for the first time: What if they attack my castle and I have riflemen garrison? Answer: Bayonets! I switched them to melee mode and they are just another regular infantry now.

* My modernization level is still at 2 around turn 55, thanks to all Shogunate buildings lowering it. Unfortunately after all researches done, it will jump me to 3.

* Another big clan with 8 provinces turned from Shogunate to Imperial! The game does that annoying feature, because I was basically won and it want it to change. I think it will stop once I become Vanguard. (Thanks to the "Too Late to change allegiance" event) I wish I knew that before!

* I am not limiting the build of "Cottage Industry". Yes it gives you some modernization, but it's an essential money maker, and it's just cottage. I always upgrade it with the one doesn't provide modernization though. And I always pick Gambling Den, not Market for my Geisha House.

* The autoresult solves the battles against my odds drastically. I think that's because I have no archers. But since the archers are of little use in self-played battles, I rather play the battles myself.

* I am using all techs on ships. I thought I might not use the fireball upgrade, but then decided to use it because I was winning all the battles anyway, it only takes longer to win.. It's an issue actually, because I think the game is buggy and my ships resists ten times more of a cannon balls because I am able to attack and repair at the same time.

* I haven't seen a battle "Full modern against full katana steel" yet. Because I am still fighting with my Shogunate neighbors, and they train Shogitai more than I do. I expect that type of army from Satsuma, once I become Vanguard and face with him.

I don't want to look like a guy talking with himself by posting over and over, (Like our helpful friend Druzhina from Medieval 2 Total War forum.) But I must put a screenshot to show the situation.

Attachment 17380

As you can see, my realm is divided by too. At west, I am keeping Satsuma at bay with my navy (I just lost a 202 men ship, but she took 8 enemy ships to bottom of the sea with her.) Yoko still bombards my docks brutally, but I am holding them too. They have no intention to send an invasion army so far. That's good news.

In the east, things look more promising. I beat 3 armies of the strongest clans around, by swarming with spearmen and cut down with swordsmen. Their pressure is high, but my new units are arrived to the field and soon I will advance again. It's only a matter of time that I take few more cities and become Vanguard. Only problem is the casualties. But I switch the units about to be depleted with the fresh ones close by. And I always send garrison riflemen as a cannon fodder.
I am disbanding Parrott Guns I captured. Don't want to lose my honor by using gunpowder.

Units trained from the Master Dojo starts with +5 Experience, which is an insane advantage. Before that I thought modern armies were extremely imbalanced because they have a foreign trainer. Moreover, I get %15 speed bonus trait for my general, I think it's an insane advantage too, since my army rely on getting close to the enemy as soon as possible.

Interestingly, Yari Kachi is more expensive than Katana Kachi. Looks like their morale is almost equal, armor difference is only one point. And better attack point of Katanas doesn't matter, since they will be slicing riflemen wearing coats instead of armor anyway. Is it possible that Yari Kachi is better? It's the same for Shogitai, their upkeep definitely doesn't worth the attack advantage.

Anyway that's all for now. I will continue playing whenever I have time.

I'm reading. I don't have FotS (yet), so I can't comment. Which colour is your faction on the screen print?

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

I'm reading. I don't have FotS (yet), so I can't comment. Which colour is your faction on the screen print?

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Thanks for being my audience mate. I hope frogbeastegg is ok with me taking over his topic. (Somehow I was reading it "FrostBeatEgg" the whole time)

I am black, Aizu. I started at Fukushima, one of the north-eastern regions. Only the Shogunate clans were left around me after few turns, then I migrated to invade Tosa (Red, which is my vassal now). Then Edo (White) converted to Imperial. I returned all the way back to invade him. I defeated Edo and made peace, but still figting with dark blue and light yellow neighbors of him. (All are Shogunate). During this whole conflict, the light blue at the the east invaded my beloved Aizu. It was Shogunate too. I am planning to not forgive him and not take him to my Vanguard team.

The other one turned allegiance is the big light blue at the center of the map. You can see how annoying this is :inquisitive: They have direct passage from island to island, so I shouldn't make any mistakes on naval combat or else they will march into my almost undefended islands.

You are in an unenviable position to be sure. Good luck - and stay true to tradition! :bow:

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

You are in an unenviable position to be sure. Good luck - and stay true to tradition! :bow:

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Thanks mate! I guess I am holding well so far, thanks to the diplomacy screen that gives a brief idea about any clan's army strength.

If I manage to hold firm against incoming Satsuma invasion, I will be fine. Then again, you never know: One landing would send me back to the stone age. We'll see.

I think I am around turn 100 now. The battle on sea didn't went well, and in the land doesn't look promising, despite several victories.

My western area is still quiet, no invasion fleet on the horizon. I see from the map that Satsuma is busy invading the mainland.

On the eastern area; I hold against the assault of the last army threatens my western flank. It was a Shogunate army of Odawara, consists of 5-6 "armored" Shogitai, 2 Kisho Ninjas and several Line Infantry, and Bow ki, etc. Yes they all were +2 armored, thanks to their province trained. I was almost sure that I will lose the battle, even I have only slight numerical advantage (1400 to 1700). My army was consists of only 2 Katana Samurai, a Bow Samurai and lots of Spearmen, because I was gambled and sent my brute force to invade Sampu (Light Green) and trusted the garrison levies in the castle to hold off an attack. (I have 9 garrison units there in total, and remember my riflemen swings their rifles like a club only.)

Here is the replay of the battle:
Attachment 17385

I think only "Stand & Fight" ability and very good defense bonuses on my General won the day. Here is the end of battle screenshot.

Attachment 17386


All 6 units I lost are the Garrison levies. That's good news. Then I marched towards lord Odawara and took his province. He is now my Vassal too. My general also provides %15 speed to my men, so I was able to run them down before they flee.

Sampu also lost one more decisive battle and now I am assaulting him. My army is Half Katana-Half Spearmen and I have good numerical advantage. But my general is inexperienced, and the enemy has deadly Shogitai, Kisho Ninjas and 2 Parrot Guns which can change the fate of the battle.

Attachment 17387

I haven't decide to assault the castle yet though. I can march through Odawara to take Sampu settlements from behind. Then they might be surrendered anyway.

At the northern flank, Edo, which was still hostile to me, declared war again, as soon as he gathered a stack. No surprise there. Good thing he is getting invaded from the north so he will not give me a headache. But the dark green which was my last ally, also broke his alliance, and declared war next turn. Funny thing is, he was Shogunate and "Very Friendly" with me. After just 2 turns, he is now hostile and at war. Ridiculous! Now I have officially no strong allies left. Let's hope no deadly strong stack appears on my front before I become Vanguard.

On sea, the enemies comes with stacks now. I was able to deal with them 1 against 3 or 4, but with that many ships bombing at the same time... My several ships exploded in half. I was downed to 3 ships in total, and my economy been hit hard. Good thing I always made the right economical decisions so I still have reasonable income. I have 4 or 5 ships now.

I get an event for "Modernization Level 3". Which probably means there is no chance holding yourself from advancing in the tech tree. Annoying to see my generals bodyguard downed from 30 to 12, since they will be holding their revolvers in their holster.

I noticed that I am not able to train +5 Honored samurai anymore. I wonder which general was providing such a trait? I would love to keep him in there.