Cavalry formations and charges: what's most effective?
What? No cavalry thread? Here we go.
1) Is wedge a useful formation? Does it increase kills considerably, or otherwise confer results which make it worthwhile? If you can tear through an enemy formation it's got some use but what about those other times where the target is denser or the situation so busy the cavalry is likely to get tangled as it emerges?
2) Is it better to have a long, thin cavalry formation, or a slightly deeper one? This one should be assessed in terms of combat total, not just the charge. On the charge it's obvious that a long, 2 man deep formation does more damage because more men have a clear strike. However in melee they get shredded even faster than usual. So is the slight kill bonus worth the slight loss increase? What's the sweet spot for kills/durability on average?
3) How do the above apply to the different cavalry types? I suspect units with a higher charge value may do best in a thin formation with do or die tactics, whereas durable low charge value units like katana cavalry may be better off with with a three or or man deep formation because they find it harder to break a unit in a single blow.
4) I read that charge bonus has a 10 second cooldown, i.e. 10 seconds must pass after the end of your charge before you are eligible for that bonus again. Combine this with the fact that most cavalry is shredded in melee, and charge to recharge tactics are definitely the best option.
4a) How effective is a cavalry charge before that 10 second period has passed? If you pull back and charge in again after 8 seconds do you make a good impact or is it worth pulling further away to gain those extra 2 seconds?
4b) Can we figure out at what point is the charge deemed to be finished and the timer begins for reset? This is a key to determining when to pull your unit back and ready for the next charge.
5) As per all prior TW games charge is a separate state to running. A double click order gets a unit running; the charge state happens automatically once a set distance for target is reached. Unlike STW and MTW, Shogun 2 has issues of momentum, mass, unit penetration, and other things which muddy the waters when charging. Statistically speaking, is there much difference between running into a charge and walking into one?
I expect the MP people will have some good info to add on the formations.
:charge:
Re: Cavalry formations and charges: what's most effective?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frogbeastegg
What? No cavalry thread? Here we go.
1) Is wedge a useful formation? Does it increase kills considerably, or otherwise confer results which make it worthwhile? If you can tear through an enemy formation it's got some use but what about those other times where the target is denser or the situation so busy the cavalry is likely to get tangled as it emerges?
2) Is it better to have a long, thin cavalry formation, or a slightly deeper one? This one should be assessed in terms of combat total, not just the charge. On the charge it's obvious that a long, 2 man deep formation does more damage because more men have a clear strike. However in melee they get shredded even faster than usual. So is the slight kill bonus worth the slight loss increase? What's the sweet spot for kills/durability on average?
3) How do the above apply to the different cavalry types? I suspect units with a higher charge value may do best in a thin formation with do or die tactics, whereas durable low charge value units like katana cavalry may be better off with with a three or or man deep formation because they find it harder to break a unit in a single blow.
4) I read that charge bonus has a 10 second cooldown, i.e. 10 seconds must pass after the end of your charge before you are eligible for that bonus again. Combine this with the fact that most cavalry is shredded in melee, and charge to recharge tactics are definitely the best option.
4a) How effective is a cavalry charge before that 10 second period has passed? If you pull back and charge in again after 8 seconds do you make a good impact or is it worth pulling further away to gain those extra 2 seconds?
4b) Can we figure out at what point is the charge deemed to be finished and the timer begins for reset? This is a key to determining when to pull your unit back and ready for the next charge.
5) As per all prior TW games charge is a separate state to running. A double click order gets a unit running; the charge state happens automatically once a set distance for target is reached. Unlike STW and MTW, Shogun 2 has issues of momentum, mass, unit penetration, and other things which muddy the waters when charging. Statistically speaking, is there much difference between running into a charge and walking into one?
I expect the MP people will have some good info to add on the formations.
:charge:
I really wish we'd have an indicator similar to the abilities (inspire, war cry) shown on the charging unit, and it would then disappear when the charge bonus is lost. That would help a lot in deciding when to withdraw.
Re: Cavalry formations and charges: what's most effective?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frogbeastegg
What? No cavalry thread? Here we go.
1) Is wedge a useful formation? Does it increase kills considerably, or otherwise confer results which make it worthwhile? If you can tear through an enemy formation it's got some use but what about those other times where the target is denser or the situation so busy the cavalry is likely to get tangled as it emerges?
2) Is it better to have a long, thin cavalry formation, or a slightly deeper one? This one should be assessed in terms of combat total, not just the charge. On the charge it's obvious that a long, 2 man deep formation does more damage because more men have a clear strike. However in melee they get shredded even faster than usual. So is the slight kill bonus worth the slight loss increase? What's the sweet spot for kills/durability on average?
3) How do the above apply to the different cavalry types? I suspect units with a higher charge value may do best in a thin formation with do or die tactics, whereas durable low charge value units like katana cavalry may be better off with with a three or or man deep formation because they find it harder to break a unit in a single blow.
4) I read that charge bonus has a 10 second cooldown, i.e. 10 seconds must pass after the end of your charge before you are eligible for that bonus again. Combine this with the fact that most cavalry is shredded in melee, and charge to recharge tactics are definitely the best option.
4a) How effective is a cavalry charge before that 10 second period has passed? If you pull back and charge in again after 8 seconds do you make a good impact or is it worth pulling further away to gain those extra 2 seconds?
4b) Can we figure out at what point is the charge deemed to be finished and the timer begins for reset? This is a key to determining when to pull your unit back and ready for the next charge.
5) As per all prior TW games charge is a separate state to running. A double click order gets a unit running; the charge state happens automatically once a set distance for target is reached. Unlike STW and MTW, Shogun 2 has issues of momentum, mass, unit penetration, and other things which muddy the waters when charging. Statistically speaking, is there much difference between running into a charge and walking into one?
I expect the MP people will have some good info to add on the formations.
:charge:
1. Wedge seems not to make any difference. We tested this and I cant see anything good about it.
2. In frontal charges vs. other cavs we couldnt notice a difference, if the unit was in 1 long line or in 3-4 rows ( we tested with medium size).
The advance of 1 line lay more into the fact, that you take less casualties, if a gun shot at you. Else for the sake of movement, its better to have a compact cav unit.
3. I dont make a difference within the units. There are some thoughts though.
If you want to bind more than 1 unit, you might want to spread the cav into one big line and move it in, this way you probably get more than one unit bound at your cav.
If you want to get into one unit only, than you have to use a compact formation, this is useful, if you want to charge into a sword unit, but there are spears nearby. You dont want that a single horse touch a spear.
3.1. In a perfect world, you had the time to micro this all, but in the heat of the fight, with a lots of clicks needed, you mostly dont got the time to change too many things.
4. Hidden CDs and recharging. Well, I wont give out any infos about hidden things, if you want to see this information, we have to get some guy from CA in here. All I can do is, showing from time to time in some vids, what can be done, than you can think about it and come to your own conclusion (note - I try to point exploits and also imbalances out as much, but at some points my hands are bound).
Right now, you can get cav to easy out of a skirmish. The best cav for charges only and recharging is Yari cav (one reason why it costs a bit more now). The cav has low combatstats but extreme high charge.
All hidden bonuses or CD´s are hidden, you hardly will see any infos official shared with us. CA has a strict policy about this kind of things.
5. concerning cav charges, there is no difference between walking into a charge or running into it. We did tests about this with Yari cav and walked into a charge and the outcome was (yari cav charge was bugged and thatswhy we tested this) more or less the same.
I want to add, that we did also tests with melee. Same outcome, you can walk into a charge.
Re: Cavalry formations and charges: what's most effective?
While I'm certainly less experienced than Kocmoc when it comes to multiplayer (I've only gotten my legal copy this Tuesday and only had time to play during a couple of evenings, reached only rank seven), I do have a few differences of opinion when it comes to answering the same questions.
To take the first issue, Wedge. Always was a silly formation, and seeing players keeping their cavalry in Wedge full time does make me cringe. It's not more lethal, but it dimishes the unit's loses during the initial charge. When you attack with cavalry, you always want the full benefit of the charge, you may say. Yes and no, sometimes you just want to pin down a unit in order for another to have an easier time charging in. And in that case, you don't want to outright sacrifice your cavalry unit to make it happen.
From what I've seen, many players have the tendency to overextend their Yari lines so as to protect as many missile troops as possible with as few Yari troops as possible. Now, you want your main sword-charge to happen without being peppered by missiles, so I prefer to attack with cavalry and sword infantry simultaneously. I.e. I take 1, maximum 2 squads of cavalry and have them charge in one single line, the sword infantry following. Now, the enemy player will unload one's missiles into that cavalry and will retreat behind one's infantry to avoid the charge. If the melee infantry are swords, I just let the remnants of my cavalry smash into them in single-line, disrupting their ranks and allowing my own sword infantry an easy charge. However, should they advance those thin-ranked spears (it's very common really) I quickly order wedge and break through. What happens is, the cavalry won't sustain as many casualties and it will find itself half-through the spear unit's couple of ranks. If you have given your sword infantry proper attack orders in the beginning, now you will have time to spam-attack the missile troops that have taken refuge behind the spears. Basically, you keep reissuing the same attack order to your cavalry to continue towards the missile troops and, just like when disengaging from the fray, some cavalrymen will manage to reach them and disrupt their ranks for at least a while, not letting them shoot.
Another, more basic use, is to order Wedge when you want your cavalry to squeeze between enemy units and keep charging at the same time. If they'd be headed towards an enemy unit and another would approach on their side, in order to not leave a side entangled by the one's flanking them and not interrupt your charge by ordering a formation with increased ranks, you can simply order Wedge.
Now, the second issue:
Quote:
Is it better to have a long, thin cavalry formation, or a slightly deeper one? This one should be assessed in terms of combat total, not just the charge. On the charge it's obvious that a long, 2 man deep formation does more damage because more men have a clear strike. However in melee they get shredded even faster than usual. So is the slight kill bonus worth the slight loss increase? What's the sweet spot for kills/durability on average?
Unless you attack spears, I'd always go for ranks thin enough for the line to cover the full front of the enemy unit when it comes to one versus one between two units.
However, if you are in a situation of two versus two, in my opinion, the situation is very clear: you always want to go for two men ranks at most. Take a showdown between four cavalry units, two on each side. Most players line up their units side by side and charge each unit into the other two. What I found to be effective against this is, starting from a similar side by side position, to charge one unit while extending it as much as possible, and right behind it do the same with the second unit. What happens is, the two enemy units both break their charge into just one of my thinly spread charging units, while my second one charges into the engaged enemy.
It's the same with enemy infantry. Two enemy units of Katana Samurai try to side by side counter charge two units of Katana cavalry? Say Medium unit size, that's eighty against one hundred and sixty. You get better results if you spread one unit of Katana Cavalry in one rank and charge into both, breaking the enemy charge, and two-three seconds later, once the first cavalry squad is already into the ranks of the infantry, the second smashes in.
Re: Cavalry formations and charges: what's most effective?
Some good observations in those two posts :bow:
Before Kocmoc posted I had begun some tests on two areas, haven't had chance to come back and report until now. The early findings match what is said in this thread, and what I myself expected to see after my various SP campaign battles, that I'm happy to let them rest.
1. Walking or running into charge is a difference of a couple of kills. Sometimes walking did better, sometimes running. Thus I conclude that it's more a case of how well the charge hits than which method is used to launch. I had similar findings in the earlier games so I'm happy to let this one rest.
This means the main reasons to choose between walking and running are micromanagement, how quickly you need the unit to be there, and whether the game has decided that the unit defaults to run (Gah! Stop doing that!).
2. Wedge, SP notes. The AI keeps its units in denser formations. It seldom strings them out into 2-3 men deep. This means that wedge has problems tearing through and so the main advantage the formation is meant to give is lost. It's not a great formation to be using in melee as the core of men inside the wedge have difficulty getting involved.
Away from the battlefield and SP only, wedge has a high opportunity cost. You need to buy access and doing so requires investment of highly limited points into an area which produces very little result. It's also poor in terms of what it opens up: most armies have a small cavalry component and so having better performance for them is not nearly as important as having better performance for one of the more widely used types, or a more indirect bonus such as moving further on the campaign map. Maybe for the Takeda it will be a bit useful, as they can recruit cheaper, stronger cavalry and are consequentially more likely to have cavalry heavy armies.
