I think the AI is ripping me off!

I am playing Mori on Legendary and have had to bribe my neighbours into trading with me. However, recently a few of them started breaking the trade agreement and I have rebribe them to get it back. Well when I do my bribing I usually do something like 700 koku for say 20 turns making sure the amount I pay per turn is under how much I will earn from the trade. I assumed this also stopped them taking a lump sum and then giggling at me the next turn when they break the trade agreement. However, imagine my horror when I checked the Other mouse over in the Finance > Taxes and saw the payments spread over many turns still being paid the these stinking double crossing AIs!!!

I don't get why they get to break the trade agreement and still get my Koku, is there anyway I can stop this payment to them? Or do I have to wage war on them or something?

PS. I adore this legendary difficultly and is the main reason I purchased the game as the last title I got (Medieval 2) was too easy and very quickly became pointless to play. But this is something else as AI has got evil and sneaky and has kicked my butt several times already and I'm loving it :)

They don't obey nor listen to you, just wipe them until they have the last province [make sure that province is their home province] and make them vassal! best way to create economic even in the realm divided situation, its useful option if they not trade with you or distrust you. They even used for defense line from the direction you don't attention too.

BTW, don't let's your vassal have more than 2 province, its have high chance they will start to rebellion against your.

Welcome to the Org Altimis. ~:wave:

MrsCabbage, have you confirmed the koku is actually being paid over several turns after the break in the trade agreement?

Altimis I wish I could just wipe the blighters as causally as you suggest however just surviving one enemny I lost nearly my whole family several times combined with my capital city (several times) so I am weary of waging more on more than one front! Good tip on the Vassal business, thanks. And I feel special at being your first post :2thumbsup:

Gregoshi yes I have checked it continues after several turns and I added up all the individual tributes to confirm it adds up - and it does. If I was in normal mode I would wage war with one of the cheeky blighters and see if I stopped paying the tribute then but I can't on legendary - well I could if I could find the save game file but I don't want to do that as I will be tempted to abuse the non save aspect of the difficultly setting!

You know the more I think about this the more it feels like a bug rather than design...

Do you have the option to cancel the payments in the diplomatic screen? It's possible to cancel items like military access, trade agreements and alliances there, so maybe?

I find it best to offer up front payments for trade agreements, up to a limit of 5,000 koku if I am very rich. Paying out a little each turn tends to gobble up the entire value of the trade, sometimes more, meaning that there's no real gain aside from the chance at relationship modifiers. With a single payment my treasury takes a bit of a hit and then each turn after that my income is larger. Larger per turn income means I can support extra units, or stockpile koku faster.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

Welcome to the Org Altimis. ~:wave:

MrsCabbage, have you confirmed the koku is actually being paid over several turns after the break in the trade agreement?

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Oh thanks :-) I love this forum, very good designed!

Frogbeastegg - what you say about being able to cancel payments on the diplomatic screen is exactly what I would have expected to see but oddly it is not there!! I think it should be, obviously!

Don't you ever get worried if you pay say 5000 koku upfront for something like 1500 trade per turn that the AI might just cancel the trade and laugh in your face? That has happened to me several times on this legendary game I am playing...

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Originally Posted by MrsCabbage

Don't you ever get worried if you pay say 5000 koku upfront for something like 1500 trade per turn that the AI might just cancel the trade and laugh in your face? That has happened to me several times on this legendary game I am playing...

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I have had deals cancelled a few turns after paying out a large sum. It's reasonably rare as I am careful when selecting trading partners. Check their integrity, their honour, and their alliances/wars. If they are an honourable clan and not diplomatically tied to a situation which may bring them into conflict with you (or even the "you are an enemy of my friend" status) then the gamble is safe enough to take. Also check their location - if they only have a single port and are at war with another clan, the province could be captured. That automatically breaks the trade agreement.

I only make the gamble when I can afford the loss. I start out with 1,000 koku and work my way up if the AI refuses. If they have not agreed by 5,000 then it is likely they will not agree unless I offer ridiculous terms. By the point I am needing to offer large sums as bribes, I am able to swallow a loss with no more than a shrug. Because I aim for a high per turn income, I replenish my treasury very quickly. More income means more flexibility. That is partly personal preference; it's not a hard and fast rule every player must use. Once I have around 6 provinces and a couple of trade nodes I find I am bringing in over 5,000 per turn after all of my expenses are paid, and sometimes as much as 8,000 or 10,000. That's on the higher difficulties so it will apply to legendary too. Coincidentally, it's around that point when I need to start paying people in order to get a trade agreement.

Based on what you have said, money will be lost regardless. If I offered a smaller sum over multiple turns and they broke the deal, I'd still have to pay. Cheeky AI! The small loss is a better deal - your 700 koku over 20 turns example adds up to 14,000 koku. Ouch!

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

I have had deals cancelled a few turns after paying out a large sum. It's reasonably rare as I am careful when selecting trading partners. Check their integrity, their honour, and their alliances/wars. If they are an honourable clan and not diplomatically tied to a situation which may bring them into conflict with you (or even the "you are an enemy of my friend" status) then the gamble is safe enough to take. Also check their location - if they only have a single port and are at war with another clan, the province could be captured. That automatically breaks the trade agreement.

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Thanks for the excellent reply and what I paticularly like is it gives me a reason to think more strategically doing my diplomatic deals.