whats the difference? russia ( over half a map ) with 5 regions or poland smaller but with 5 regions too :balloon2: ...and the mongol problems... i think russians will stay where they r.
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whats the difference? russia ( over half a map ) with 5 regions or poland smaller but with 5 regions too :balloon2: ...and the mongol problems... i think russians will stay where they r.
i just say what happen in my games ( ive completed the game 3 times )... countries with the back covered like Denmark and Russia usually dominate the game between AI factions ..... so i would have liked to see a teutonic empire to give problems to them both :idea2: ...
hmm i completed it twice, but earlier....those danes r terrible.....they were weak...they never expand. its a little bit mistake with this one
after the viking period ofcourse :) :book:
A common misconception...Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem87
I consulted some of my history books.
The Volga-Bulgars at first successfully resisted the mongols. Impressive.
I thought Aragon was superfluous but it seems it was quite active militarily.
If anything, the Italo-Normans, I guess 'Sicily' lost power to the HRE, France and Aragon. If you want another European power, replace this one with it.
i no that sicily was not that strong but in the beginning of the game it had major impacts on italy and narth africa, then it became the capital of the hre under frederick II.
at this point i think everyone whos commented here has agreed that transoxiana needs to go. who wants to play a relaism mod with a non-existant nation? however, i just need a modder to openly support my cause then the major issue can be resolved. i would like volga-bulgaria removed but at least it existed!
Originally Posted by mayhem87
and what is worse on that? ----> ill tell you.....fighting for a piece of worthless land of steppes, where is one city in region that is 5000km big. Its the same for russians to capture Volga Bulgaria as for Egyptians to capture a big poor land of desert under Tunis ( dunno the name exactly ), the soldiers will be 20 y older before they arrive there. In Europe its different.... the provinces r smaller, wealthier, stronger, better defendable and civilised ! So its better to have smaller states in smaller area, than big states which r spread over half map and have 4 provinces ;-).....so its better to stay in Europe, than expand the map eastward
posted by Sarmatian : A common misconception...
posted by Mayhem87 : what an interesting argument :-X :skull: , something more to offer?
No I think a Transoxanian faction is a good addition. Perhaps the modders have to work on the name. I may have seemed negative in previous posts but I meant to lump the Timurids into this generic faction.
why dont the modders get rid of transoxiana and then mix in some of their units with the timurids because historically timurs powerbase and capital were in transoxiana. also many of his soldiers were from the area so the transoxianan units would be identical to those of the timurids.
How do we define importance? Let me see....That's right, anything that is recorded in western European history.
Come, come gentlemen, surely we should realise a World existed beyond European boundaries.
Similarly, for every call for Burgundy or Genoa there could just as easily be a call for Wales and Ireland and others too.
Transoxiana (currently a generic term)
The Qara-Khanid (oddly enough another misnomer that has been accepted) state was established by an offshoot of the Qarluk Turks and Uighurs who migrated there. They adopted Islam in the 10th Century and though considered vassals of the Seljuks, they were free to administer without interferance, the Seljuks were looking in another direction. Their Capital was Bukhara and they enjoyed the wealth brought via the 'silk road'.
They did later on become vassals of the Qara-Khitai (western Liao - Khitan refugees) who set up their own state but generally resided to the north east. Note that Khwarazm was also a vassal of Qara-Khitai (it had by this time shaken off the grip of the Seljuks though maintained an army which was mostly Turkic). Shah Muhammad took advantage of internal strife amongst Qara-Khitai to establish his own 'Empire' and with the fall of Qara-Khitai to Jebe and his Turfan Uighur allies, Muhammad was able to gain the land of 'Transoxiana' between the Oxus and Jaxartes (Amu Darya and Syr Daria) and establish his new Capital at Samarqand.
Volga Bulgars.
Retreated north under pressure from the Khazars and established themselves around the Bulgar/Kama area. Some remained under Khazar rule and others migrated west to found Bulgaria. They began as a mixed people Altaic, Turkic, Finn, Ugrian and Slav and formed a strong link with Baghdad. Their Capital, Bulgar was THE trade centre of the time, making major European cities look insignificant by comparison.
In 1223, after the annihilation of Russian and Qipchaq troops at Kalka and after rendezvousing with Jochi and reinforcements, Jebe and Subedei were forced to withdraw by a Volga Bulgar army. Later in 1236, an army of 30,000 Mongols under Batu's brother Suntai were driven back. They were defeated by Batu and the invasion force that went on into Russia and Hungary and were finally subjugated six years later.
Anything but another 'horse archer' faction (and there are plenty of HA in eastern European armies in vanilla M2TW), their armies were influenced by Russia and Byzantium as well as the Turks.
Now please accept the faction list has been decided and realise that threads like this will have no influence over it
.......Orda
the ilkhanate must also be in it in this mod because they were very big and good.
( Hülegü Khan, Abaka Khan, Arghun Khan, Ghazan Mahmud Khan and Muhammed Olcay-to Khan and his son Great and Last Khan: Ebü Sa'id Bahadir Khan )
the ilkhanate must also be in it in this mod because they were very big and good.
( Hülegü Khan, Abaka Khan, Arghun Khan, Ghazan Mahmud Khan and Muhammed Olcay-to Khan and his son Great and Last Khan: Ebü Sa'id Bahadir Khan )
A lot. Bear with me...Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem87
First, economy. Europe, in the middle ages, was not rich. Certain provinces were rich (like italian city states), but they make only a small percentage of europe. Richer cities were generaly those on the coast of the mediteranean, and they were highly dependable on resources from asia minor, middle east and north africa. And even though, only a certain percentege of people living in these cities were rich. Conclusion, only a really, really small number of people were rich. People of europe were generaly poor.
All major cereals were imported into Europe from Asia, Africa and America. In fact, of all vegetables and cereals you eat today, only cabbage is originaly from europe. Although agriculture in europe started to recover in the 12th century, it was barely able to feed 20-25 million people, which was tho whole population of europe at the time. Bad harvest, and famine is guaranteed. After 12th century, new advances and knowledges were implemented in agriculture and the population started to rise, but it was still higly depended on good harvest. Famine was a constant danger up until 17th, 18th century when europeans started to grow potatoes and maze in larger quantities. The fact that eastern roman empire was by far the richer part of the roman world, and it's influence was generally limited to balkans, asia minor and middle east, tells enough on its own. A citizen of medieval london or paris or vienna would probably stare in awe at the wealth of bokhara or samarqand. Not to mention some chinese cities.
Second, civility. Well, history is written by winners. Vandals sacked rome and today we use the term vandalism to describe barbaric behavior. Romans destroyed carthage, and yet they are considered cultured. Spaniards in the 16th century destroyed magnificent civilizations of Aztecs and Incas because of their gold and silver. Ottoman sacking of constantinople is considered barbaric, while the city in fact was damaged more by the "civilized" crusaders. Most of european nobility in the middle ages, were in fact so civilized, that they didn't want to disrupt their civility by bathing.
The period where europe starts advancing is after the age of discovery and rennesaince, and mostly by exploating the riches of africa, america and asia. After the industrial revolution europe becomes the center of the world politicaly, economicaly and scientificaly.
So, middle ages are certainly not a period where europe was dominant in any way. Some exceptions exist, mostly in italy and byzantium, but that was only a small part european population...
parts of europe were much poorer and less cultured then the east. however, certain areas were more advanced.
e.g. northern italy, constantinople(the rest of the empire was left to decay),burgundy, al-andalus, and germany.
france,the british isles, iberia(catholic),the balkans,scandanavia, and russia were far behind the east.
HOWEVER, people tend to think of the east as a land full of exotic cities filled with golden and ivory buildings and entire populations that were clad in silk. WRONG!
the exotic cities were rare(samarkand,buqhara, and a few more) most cities in the east were slums filled with murderers, prostitutes,bugs,rats,plague and dysentary. though europe had its fair share of slums none were as bad as the ones in the east. there were no golden buildings outside of samarkand and even there western accounts of wealth are questionable. the east is not samarkand and buqhara it is is also the dumps from where the bubonic plague started(yes the cultured, beautiful, utopia called the east was home to that and many more) so the next time someone says the east was more important and more cultured then the west think again. oh and the supposed anti-east schooling that i received never told about the real east. i found that out on my own.
Really? There were prostitutes, murderers, rats and bugs in the east? No, you're kidding, that can't be true...Quote:
Originally Posted by arfrisco
Sarcasm aside, all those things you've mentioned existed in europe and in much greater quantity. The plague originated in the east but it spread through europe like wildfire, because hygiene was not practiced very much. Oh, and then civilized europeans started to kill jews because they believed jews were responsible for the plague...
And there are a hell of a lot more beautiful and rich cities in the east than just samarkand and bokhara...
Orda instead of whining because the people complain about the faction list be happy because the people are talking of history on this forum that was otherwise dead .
How was Germany so advanced? I think Italy and Byzantium were far ahead of Germany as far as being advanced goes. Atleast politically the Holy Roman Empire was a mess, the Emperor was hardly able to excersize control over his vassals. Also, I don't think Burgundy was more advanced or cleaner than the rest of France.Quote:
and germany.
When the list has been posted and the fact that it is not about to be changed, "get rid of 'X' because I like 'Y' more" posted over and over is hardly something to be happy about. The list is not going to changeQuote:
Originally Posted by FrantzITA
.......Orda
NO MORE, PLEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEE, I CANT TAKE IT ANY MORE;
Enough with complainments!!!! Map and factions are REALISTIC and substituting factions would make only trouble!!!!!!!
:furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3:
complaints are a part of democracy ... we can live with transonnoxia in :inquisitive:
Democracy??? What does that have to do with a Mod?? You mean that one or two people harping on and on about their favourite faction and trying to discredit others is going to 'win over' the development team, make them realise the terrible mistake they have made in their list and cause them to change it?
There is NO democracy. The MTR Team decide on what their Mod contains and if that just happens to leave out your favourite faction it's just tough luck, as has been the case with TW mods since STW.
Feel free to talk about history but realise that arfrisco has spammed the MTR faction list thread at TWC over and over and has decided to do the same here. It is not conducive to repeat this stuff all the time when the answer was given ages ago. Being beligerant because the answer does not suit you and trying to belittle other factions or the Team is not my idea of discussion.
Transoxiana is simply a name applied to a region and mentioning Timur when talking about Samarqand really means nothing since he does not appear there until much, much later in the game.
Khwarazmian Empire was founded in the late 12th Century. Originally under Seljuk control (11th - 12th C) this had become nominal by the time of Ala al-Din Atsiz who at one point revolted, taking full advantage of Seljuk problems with the new Qara-Khitan Empire. Taj al-Dunya wa'l Din Il-Arslan succeeded in expanding boundaries into Khurasan. This expansion was halted under his feuding successors as Khwarazm was divided in two. Muhammad II reunited the Empire and took advantage when the Mongols brought about the end of Qara-Khitaid power in 1211, expanding his Empire further.
Under Seljuk rule, the area had been heavily Turkicised and much of the military remained Turkic right up until the Mongols conquered the area, a fact that was despised by the 'Persian' populace.
Established much earlier was the Qara-Khanid state who were independant of Seljuk control by the campaign start date.
Sarmatian has already mentioned the importance of the 'east' with regards the 'west' and this area and its wealth has been highly sought after throughout the ages. Likewise, Volga Bulgaria with its confluence of trade routes and its ideal location to take full advantage of this. They may initially have been pressed north by Khazar expansion but that expansion was checked and halted. With the adoption of Islam their culture flourished and easily outshone the major factions in Europe. Influenced by Rus, Byzantine and Islamic sources, they were powerful enough to prevent Qipchaq expansion into their territory, the Qipchaqs found it much easier to concentrate their efforts against the Rus. Whatever battles were fought amongst these three factions, ALL were independant at the campaign start date.
Forget what the Mongols did and how long it took them. They did this to everyone they met, Qara-Khitai, Khwarazm, Qangli, Qipchaq, Volga Bulgar, Rus, Pole, Hungarian and Bulgarian
.......Orda
i dont check other forums so i dont know what happened elsewhere ... btw yours is a poor marketing strategy ...let the people talk , we all know that is who make the work that have the right to put in whatever they want ( even gnomes and elves ... ) but keep in mind everyone that arrive here is interested in the mod and will download it ... if peoples cant make observations , questions , giving thoughts bcause "you already know that and you will decide everything anyway because history is a perfect science for you " they will go away like happened "elsewhere" ....
First I am accused of whining then of poor marketing strategy, for pointing out that the faction list is finalised? I see no point arguing personal opinions for the inclusion any faction when the list is final and will not be changed
......Orda
Like they have said: the faction list is not going to change before 1.0 out, probably not even then. So why give your opinions out now? It's not going to change anything at the moment. Wait until 1.0 and you get to play it.
Instead of focusing our energy and time on this useless babble we should think about other aspects of the game. What about units and mercenaries, economy, governing, religion? Debating over those issues could actually give them some ideas and make the mod better for all of us. As I see it, people are going to whine about the factions until 1.0 is out, after that they switch to whining about everything else. All that just because they didn't make themselfs heard when the time was right.
Dont worry the Mod team wont change their mind about the factions list wich is 83,3634%* realistic... So you can talk about history as much as you want, but there will be 0.00000000000004 x 0 changes... so I think complainting is useless (like "democracy").
*Calculated by nano-precision
Im quite satisfied with the faction list....and about those units ---> I asked some questions about some units and nobody responded from the team.
Thats the same like about factions. They wont talk about anything
I think they wanna surprise us with units, but dont wanna discuss about em.
they also show some raw pictures, but thats all......
ive made some threads talking about other aspect ... but no response either ( just the pathetic auto-interview of the faq ) so i say who cares of what they are doing , i will return here in one year and i will surely download it to give it a try .
the reason why people arent repsonding is that they would rather criticize people with suggestions for the mod then actually add their own ideas to it.
What you were doing can not be called "suggesting". In the worse case it can be considered spamming, and in the best - lobbying.
In all your posts you constantly repeat that the mod is eastcentric, that burgundy should be added in favour of some other factions.
compared to other peoples "lobbying" i think i been reasonably nice. i havent bashed the mod or modders unlike everyone else. also i have facts to back me up so its like im bsing. however, i must admit ive been very agressive in my posts.