Yes, that's it. Thanks. Also, digging through the other 3.0 thread, it appears that all gladius hisp. weapons should get 0.16 lethality. It's silly that atm Velites have it, but first cohorts don't. I will fix this.
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EDU updated. Please find it attached in original post.
Mardians should cost at least 992 Mnai now, applicating one level of increased incuracy. This way they have the right price relativley to other steppe archers as scythians.
Speutagardaz should become +1 attack/+1 defense, because they got both reduced becuase of phalanx mode (at least it should be that way). Spacing needs correction too perhaps, but I don't know what whould be the correct values here (1.2 as heavy infantry?).
They actually have slightly closer ranks in the non-GG2 edu when in close formation, so for that I'd say it's fine (their description says they fought in a very dense formation). In loose formation they are closer now though, but I don't know if that's only for when they were phalanx or not.
I think we can worry about re-balancing the Speduos when gg2 releases the new edu. I just didn't want them around in their ridiculously OP state for current play. Though maybe the same should apply to Cohortes Evocata? They need to be priced as top tier units or have their effectiveness reduced.
Attack and defense is not a balancing thing. The side-effect of giving phalanx in the EDU-system Gamegeek is using, is reducing attack and defense by 1. So if we take phalanx off, we need to give them back this two points. The spacing thing is not so important for now. I agree.
Re: Cohors Evocata
I will try to see if they are priced correctly.
Cool. I agree that Evocata is possibly too OP. I think GG2 gave them some sort of discount, so you might want to double check with him Kival.
I've made some analysis which showed some problems but essentially, cohors evocata are priced in the same way as the other marian units. The problem cannot be solved without changing the system for all marian units.
Guys evocata aren't OP, they are basically Rome at its military zenit in our time period...
They are veterans of the most professional unit there is around, of the largest and richest nation around...
Aye, I just find them somewhat cheap compared to other similar units. I do think the Auxiliary Hispanic Cavalry could use a price bump however. I mean, we always see Roman players in the time frame bringing these guys and they compare favorably to their Carthaginian and Luso equivalents with not all that much more of a price bump for wearing mail and a metal helmet.
Economically speaking in historical terms, I think that the Iberian mercenary would even cost more than the enlisted poor provincial Hispanic...
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Mercenaries would supply their own arms and be experienced fighters generally while statwise the "poor provincials" are considerably better. A poor provincial Hispanic would also not see the light of day in a cavalry contingent. I don't think the Romans supplied horses to Spaniards, Gauls and Germans. These men would be coming from the upper classes of society and still be rather expensive to outfit as medium cavalry.
Nontheless, you can't generalize all Iberian units for Carthage and the Lusos as mercenaries since some were recruited as allies. And even so, costs are generally done on a gameplay basis as far as I am aware with a few exceptions.
As you said one would require a pay to cover all his expenditures, while the other just his promised wager...
And as for the upper class, they would be legates, and most of all usually they were "political hostages", that's even cheaper to employ :D
Sure some joined the Kartadastim as allies, but that was on the promise of more loot for them, none of those Iberians would even care for carthaginian citizenship, they were hired warriors, that's their life...
My point was that historically, the auxilia would even cost less, in our gameplay balancing process, giving them a slighty superior cost is more than reasonable, as it covers the high quality equipment and the more resources available to the SPQR...
I think that the Auxiliary Cavalry contingents are supplying their own equipment. The Spanish helms, framaea of the Germans, or longer cavalry swords of the Thracians were hardly Roman equipment at this point in time. I believe the Imperial Alae cavalry units represent the standardizing of cavalry equipment to match that of the legions. As such, these auxiliaries would have to be rather well off to afford such things.
Also, the very "cream" of the nobility were taken as hostages, but men of high birth would still be expected to serve the Roman bureaucratic/governmental machine in the region and fight alongside the legions. Rome did not raise levies of Iberian or Gallic men but instead they were trained to operate alongside the legionary arm. Also by the time Marius reformed the army, parts of Iberia and Cisalpine Gaul had been under Roman control for about 100 years. I'm not so sure these regions required hostages in such large numbers anymore as to deprive the region of their traditional elites.
...The point of all of the discussion above being?
Enjoying a discussion :D
Raising the question: are auxilia too cheap?
In order to open a further discussion...
This is 100% legislative action going on :P
Yes :P
Though, for the Hispanics, I would say the closest unit (in function) is the Cantabrian Cavalry which costs a mere 1.9k or something while the Hispanics are considerably more expensive but also far far better.
Don't they have only superior armour?
For the rest I thought they had the same stats except the Cantabrae and Iberians have better missile attack...
Haha, thats good to know Vega :p
Btw guys, this is not really the place to talk about making things more expensive for game balancing purposes; however, if you feel there was an error on pricing, then by all means bring that up though.....and on that note, the hispanic cav is over 20% more expensive than the cant. cavalry. I think what makes them useful is that they have a "unique" set of stats (ie. a heavier armored version of cant. cav) rather than being "too cheap". In other words, they have no equivalent in terms of similar stats.
Most similar unit would be Iberi Equites Caetrati who are similar to Cantabrians but have slightly more armor.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
About 300 price difference for +7 armor and -1 defense skill. This seems too small to me especially considering the Roman unit gets an officer. Also compare to the differently purposed, but similarly equipped (in terms of armor rating and region of origin) Iberi Curisi:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
These have a spear, and so are differently purposed and might be considered higher tier with +1 melee attack and two higher morale. But their armor rating is again lower and yet cost about 600 more. There seems to be an issue here. Shouldn't the Romans be somewhere in between in terms of both effectiveness and price?
Okay I'll check their costs but I'm quite sure the costs for them are calculated correctly. Note: Iberi cursis are one tier higher unit, that's why they cost more.
Do you want me to move the cavalry pricing discussion to a new thread?
Lol, this part is fine, since Robin brings up a legitimate point +7 armor costs only 300 mnai- possible costing error? Esp since post marian and imperial romans get a cav cost penalty (increase) iirc. We should however note that the documentation for costing is not up-to-date nor does it include an example of how costing is worked out. I will post a request for this in other thread.
It's the "these guys are too OP" and should be changed (mostly if not purely) for gameplay reasons that doesn't really fit scope of this thread.
Relatively to the iberian light cav the iberian auxilariy seem's to be priced correctly. Chainmail + metal helmet cost 0,75 points in the system. Multiplied by 6,225 and 60 it's 280. Bringing in the 5 % additional cost for marian cav we land somewhere near 300. Though I'm not able at all to recalculate the absolute price of cav units. Theis seems to be a hidden factor not mentioned in the documentaiton.
Let's compare the Germanic Auxiliary cav which cost 2666 to the mercenary German cav which costs 2292. Difference is +2 armor and +2 morale for auxiliary version and yet the difference in price is larger than +7 armor of the Hispanic Auxilia. I'm not so sure the 2 extra morale points are worth more than +5 armor...
In my opinion, armor is the single most important stat in game, especially once fear units are removed. I'm a little unclear on how the costs are determined so maybe someone can help me out here.
In this special case I've no idea how the price of the germanic auxilariy is determined. The price increase is obviously not heavily based on the armour. 5 Armour does not cost much however it is determined. The morale increase is not specified in the Documentation.
In general morale if you did not get it by some unknown modifcation is based on the tier of the unit. The tier of the unit is normally the strongest price defining factor.
In short, they are overpriced :D