Settlement Modding

[Seth Krn3ll]

Hi there.
I'm working to build some new settlement plans along with new buildings, so to have fully customized cities for my version of LOTR-TW mod.

The topic I'd like to ask questions about here are the settlement plans related file, to be sure I'm not wasting time for something useless.

Given I'm working on a "Roman Large City" I'll relate to roman large city files.

As far as now I have been working on those files:

of course all .xt files relating to campaign:
data/export_descr_building.txt
(building threes for each culture and their effects)

data\world\maps\campaign\Alexander\campaign_name\descr_strat.txt
(starting assignation of buildings to each settlement)

ITEMS/building_name.ITEM
(the 3d models of the buildings shown in battlegame)

settlement_plans/roman_large_city.txt
(coordinated list of all buildings in the battlegame, walls, primary buildings, ambient buildings)

settlement_plans/street_plans/roman_large_city_pathfinding.CAS
Well I already posted on that, seems to be just to tell AI how to move and place soldiers in sieges.

My questions are now related to those other files:
settlement_plans/ground_types/roman_large_city_ground.TGA
Is that only for the type of ground (sandy, rocky, etc) or have other meanings? Has it to be very accurate or its not important?

settlement_plans/overlays/roman_large_city_overlay.CAS
- Why there are shades at different heights? Are them just to set the viewpoint of the camera when passing on buildings or they have other meanings?
- Plenty shades around, some seem useless. What is *really* needed in this file?

settlement_plans/underlays/roman_large_city_underlay.CAS
- Not yet worked on, jut took a look and guess its about the topography. But if I want a flat city, what is needed here? A flat unique plane will do the job?

data\descr_settlement_plan.txt
Here are listed the primary building types and are set lot of groups for ambient and city structures.
- Is it possible to create custom slots with custom buildings and add them? The game will use them or will relate to some hardcoded list of buildings and slots?

[Thor the Bassist]

OVERLAYS:
Create textures. Can be made by copying your underlay in max and then applying the required textures to the right parts.

The shades are the shadows/and/or/the dark patches below trees. These are at different levels because the trees in the plan are at different levels :)

Nothing is really required but you can put different floor textures such as dirt, grass, sand, roads etc. If you dont put any textures anywhere then it will just use the default ground texture as defined in the campaign map.

The texture will appear as semi-trasparent so If the texture isn't on the floor it looks a bit dodgy. Although I think you can use this semi-transparentness to create water the effect may need to be tested and improved.

UNDERLAYS:
the topology - yes a simple plane is all that is required for a flat plan.

[Seth Krn3ll]

I've been working a lot on those files, but something is really not working.

Any kind of modification I try to do to overlays just crashes the game.

I am pretty sure its just the overlay .cas file, because game loads with ALL other modifications both on or off.

But if I try to change everything in the overlay cas model of the city, it just crashes or freeze during loading of tactical view.

I made infinite different tries, including:

- brand new and complicated overlay and underlay
- plain underlay and overlay with my custom models inside it renamed with original names of the game overlay
- plain underlay (outline and underlay as simple planar planes, no textures, no modelling at all) and overlay (the identical plane of the outline, no textures)
- original underlay of the game and custom made overlay (just the outline model of the original underlay with no textures)
- original underlay and original overlay of the game, with JUST a change in ONE texture for one of the models in the overlay

..and tons of other tentatives

I even tried to use my plain underlay with the original overlay of the game (even if they are mainly different, they even cover DIFFERENT ground areas ) and that damn game LOADS! Then I found my viewpoint in the clouds, nothing around. But at least no crashes.. so I'm pretty sure the underlay .CAS file its not doing damage.

All the time I try to change ANYTHING to the original overlay model, game crashes while loading tactical city overview.

There must be something I'm missing about the overlay thing... any hint?

[Thor the Bassist]

If its a cas file and you get no error message always try re-importing the model you made into max as it could be an export error. Are you working from an original underlay because i'd recommend it? Also make sure you have no outline geometry in the overlay as the outline will mess up some things.

[Seth Krn3ll]

Ok after about a hundred tries I get over that loading crash. As often happens, I really didn't get what made it, anyway now seems to work.

But something is still wrong: I tried at first were to modify a little the original overlay, and somehow it worked. Now I'm ok in creating my own overlay and underlay .CAS files and they work, tactical view of the city loads, with my walls, buildings, disposition and all... but textures!

Can't understand what I'm doing wrong there: I tried adding textures to the overlay files, and also to the underlay ones, but when it loads I always find the classical green grass all around.

I even tried to texture the original game files, but again, games load and shows green fields all around - no textures.

Its weird, because in building files they show up (even if its a hard job to have good results with custom modified objects).

Is there maybe any special rule to follow to texture the mesh in the overlay - underlay files?

[Thor the Bassist]

Its done the same as buildings and units.

You proberably need to place your textures in the overlays/textures/ folder.

[Seth Krn3ll]

Its done the same as buildings and units.

You proberably need to place your textures in the overlays/textures/ folder.

already done...
no way.

I can't understand whats wrong :(

In 3dmax, I open material panel, pick a material example, clik on map/diffuse, chosse the bitmap. The little image shows the example, i add it to the object, I see the object textured in the preview, i export all and nothing, ingame still green grass :(

Sigh

[Thor the Bassist]

Your ovelay does have the same goemetry as the underlay part of your underlay doesn't it? The overlay will only show if it is as high as the underlay or higher. The overlay effectively is a semi-transparent model that is put into the map. It has no collision, this is the underlay, but creates textures.

The only other thing I can think of is check theres no rogue alpha on your textures.

[Seth Krn3ll]

Ok here is an example.

I opened the original overlay_plaza_roman_192x192m.cas in 3d max and simply retextured it using my own textures:


Then, in game, here how it appears:


Of course its not a problem of overlay - underlay allignement given they are the original ones of the game, only difference are the textures on the overlay.
Anyone understands what I'm doing wrong?

[Burns]

My guess is that the texture pathing is wrong.

[Seth Krn3ll]

My guess is that the texture pathing is wrong.

Weird, I added lots of textures to buildings and they work, there I just added the textures to the texture folder inside
Data\MODELS_BUILDING\TEXTURES

so working on overlays / underlays I just added them to Data\settlement_plans\overlays\textures
and
Data\settlement_plans\underlays\textures

maybe with underlay/overlay must be done something different? How to set the texture path then?

[Seth Krn3ll]

here it is again:
large city overlay in 3dmax:


ingame result:



:(

[Thor the Bassist]

Your textures are in the right path.

I believe it could be texture alpha if you have copied the texture from somewhere else.

Also make sure you segment the different elements in max so that the number of vertices in the model is the same as the vertices in the mapping. With RTW I would steer well clear of UVW unwrapping and segment the model and do straigt UVmaps.

[Seth Krn3ll]

I believe it could be texture alpha if you have copied the texture from somewhere else.

I personally design my textures in photshop, and I set no alpha channel there.

Also make sure you segment the different elements in max so that the number of vertices in the model is the same as the vertices in the mapping. With RTW I would steer well clear of UVW unwrapping and segment the model and do straigt UVmaps.

Hem... ok I must admit it: I did not understand :)
Models are usually boxes converted to mesh and vertex modded, then I just apply the texture to the whole obejct. If its not the right procedure, can you
give me a step by step to do it right?

e.g., I tried to use some objects found in original game Items, like those rocks, but again textures are not taken and the result is.. well have a look:

in 3d max:


in game:

[Seth Krn3ll]

Still no success with overlay texturing. I made a huge number of different tentatives, most times games just ignore my ones, and when I try to move at different heights some parts of the overlay (e.g. roads) I get tactical view loading CTD.

Now I have a guess: maybe the overlay textures must be .dds compressed to work? One of the many tentatives I made made me think so, but I dunno what kind of coding to use for textures when I save them in photoshop with the dds nvidia plugin.

There are many different options and I can't find a clue which settings are the correct one to use for RTW texturing.

Anyone can help?

[Dol Guldur]

Most textures are saved with the default settings of the plug-in controls, but with the "DXT 5" selected. There are one or two that differ.

On my software compression is only an option for TGAs; though these should always be "uncompressed".

I'm not a battlemap building modder, but if the textures are correct and still not working then you probably need to repath or relocate the relative position of the cas file and the texture file. Best bet is to download a mod and see how they do it - that's the best way to learn. Chiv should have some and I think EB may too.

[Seth Krn3ll]

Most textures are saved with the default settings of the plug-in controls, but with the "DXT 5" selected. There are one or two that differ.

Thanks, I'll try that one out.

On my software compression is only an option for TGAs; though these should always be "uncompressed".

I thought dds was just a compression for TGAs, what else?

I'm not a battlemap building modder, but if the textures are correct and still not working then you probably need to repath or relocate the relative position of the cas file and the texture file. Best bet is to download a mod and see how they do it - that's the best way to learn. Chiv should have some and I think EB may too.

Mmmm
I am now working in the original data folders (backupped a copy) so i put the textures in their original folders...

I choose to work there because LOTR-TW is a mod for alexander, and the folder tree is a bit twisted:
RTW/alexander/lotrtw/data/(..)
If i get that right, game reads things in such order:
1. RTW/alexander/lotrtw/data/(..)
2. RTW/alexander/data/(..)
3. RTW/data/(..)
4. RTW/data/packs
But there are things read in different orders, I know because I tried to have the ITEMS and models_building folder in lotrtw/data and the game seems to consider just the latter. So i decided to work on RTW/data/ because I'm pretty sure here the game reads all.

Then, again, where shall i put the overlay textures if not in
RTW/data/settlement_plans/overlays/textures/
?

[Makanyane]

If i get that right, game reads things in such order:
1. RTW/alexander/lotrtw/data/(..)
2. RTW/alexander/data/(..)
3. RTW/data/(..)
4. RTW/data/packs

not quite it reads
1. RTW/alexander/lotrtw/data/(..)
2. RTW/alexander/data/(..)
2. RTW/data/(..)
3. RTW/data/packs
generally - it won't read alexander/data at all once you are using mod-folder,
RTW/data and data/packs is normal route but I think some things it seems to want to read from packs first if file of same name is there

Then, again, where shall i put the overlay textures if not in
RTW/data/settlement_plans/overlays/textures/
?

If .cas is in
RTW/data/settlement_plans/overlays/
I'd have said that - but vanilla ones don't seem to be there!

If you open a vanilla overlay .cas can you see what it's default texture name is and search for that in files?

I wonder if its defaulting to look in models_building/textures instead of what we assume is logical place? Items seem to do that even if you create them with .cas on different path.

[Wundai]

Hello there Seth Krn3ll,

About the texture deformations in your #14th post, I recognize those since I have also had them on my buildings.
They usually happened when I tried to texture a 3D building model.

What I did then was use the Edit Mesh to detach some sides of the building and thus making them seperate objects, then texture those sides seperately with the UV Unwrap.

Maybe this helps with your overlay/underlay as well :)

[Seth Krn3ll]

Hello there Seth Krn3ll,

About the texture deformations in your #14th post, I recognize those since I have also had them on my buildings.
They usually happened when I tried to texture a 3D building model.

What I did then was use the Edit Mesh to detach some sides of the building and thus making them seperate objects, then texture those sides seperately with the UV Unwrap.

Maybe this helps with your overlay/underlay as well :)

Yo Wunday,
I came to the same conclusion at least :)


BTW, my settlement plan modding is going on very well:

Isengard done:


Minas Tirith in progress:

[Thor the Bassist]

What I did then was use the Edit Mesh to detach some sides of the building and thus making them seperate objects, then texture those sides seperately with the UV Unwrap.

You dont have to detach to objects just to elements.

To elaborate:

RTW engine doesn't do more than one texture vertex per model vertex. This means in the UV mapping each vertex on the model can only be represented once.

This has several large impacts on the mapping in 3dsmax:

1. UVW Unwrap - this is often the worst idea especially with buildings that have regular sides. If you use this I'd advise selecting all the vertices in the model and clicking break and breaking the UVW map vertices.

2. The best tactic is to select all the polys that are parallel or nearly parallel and to detach them to elements. Then select them in element view and add an UVW map modifier making sure it is planar. Align the little box up with the elements (by clicking on the modifier and using the normal transform methods) and then collapse the stack. Continue to do this for all elements that are aligned correctly.

This should remove all the texture skewing.

eg:

A box with 6 sides.

In poly view select the top and bottom sides and detach selecting the "detach to element" box.
then do the same for left and right and front and back.

Use element view to select the top and bottom sides and add a planar map in the z plane.
Use element view to select the left and right sides and add a planar map in the y plane.
Use element view to select the front and back sides and add a planar map in the y plane and rotate the modifier (not the model) 90'.

Hope this is understandable.

[Seth Krn3ll]

I need help drawing the ground_type.tga for minas tirith.

1. what colors should i use for the different areas? do they have influence on the settlement results?
2. how to reproduce in scale the same areas of the .cas file? Is there a procedure to follow from 3dmax to obtain that kind of file?

Suggestions appreciated.

[Wundai]

1. Well it is the White City isn't it? Couldn't you make some sort of a white brick texture?

2. I'm afraid I don't know

One question back btw if you don't mind ( A team member of mine TBM has emailed this question to Makanyane but I'm afraid I can't figure it out)

Any idea how you remove the trees inside a settlement? Say, a Roman Minor City in Barbarian Invasion?

I have tried going into the Settlement_plans inside BOTH BI and RTW and put a ";" in front of every Tree I could find, so RTW wouldn't recognize it. But they still keep appearing

I ask this because there are also some trees on Roman Base Foundations, and since I removed the foundations, the Trees are now floating in the air Quite disturbing!

[Thor the Bassist]

Any idea how you remove the trees inside a settlement? Say, a Roman Minor City in Barbarian Invasion?

I have tried going into the Settlement_plans inside BOTH BI and RTW and put a ";" in front of every Tree I could find, so RTW wouldn't recognize it. But they still keep appearing

I ask this because there are also some trees on Roman Base Foundations, and since I removed the foundations, the Trees are now floating in the air Quite disturbing!

These are trees within buildings aren't they? You have to remove them from the building set in descr_settlement_plan.txt. Somewhere in there there's building groups - basically lots of items grouped together to act as one building. It's a huge file though and has lots of different types of entries so make sure you are deleting the right part.

[Wundai]

Thank You Thor! Wow that was really easy to do, and all I did was remove the trees from that specific building so I don't have remove all the trees in the city to accomplish my goal

Okay, if you don't mind another question:

I am trying to replace the textures from the streets within the city, now they are brick, but I want to make them something more like mud.
I have found the brick texture used, but when I replace it with my own the city streets remain the same.
Roads OUTSIDE the city however ( for example: a map with roads leading to a brdige) DO change into the mud texture.
Any idea how I can replace the texture of the streets within the city?

[Wundai]

Oh yes and to Add to that the building I just removed leaves a 'floor' on the ground with some cubes on it, any idea how I can remove those? I have added a picture below for clarification

[Thor the Bassist]

I am trying to replace the textures from the streets within the city, now they are brick, but I want to make them something more like mud.
I have found the brick texture used, but when I replace it with my own the city streets remain the same.
Roads OUTSIDE the city however ( for example: a map with roads leading to a brdige) DO change into the mud texture.
Any idea how I can replace the texture of the streets within the city?

This is a puzzler - I'm not totally sure how this works. Might have something to do with the overlay or ground types files.

Oh yes and to Add to that the building I just removed leaves a 'floor' on the ground with some cubes on it, any idea how I can remove those? I have added a picture below for clarification

? Have you totally removed the building from the settlment plan or just from the descr_settlement_plan.txt?

[Wundai]

Oh just from descr_settlement_plan.txt actually, how can I remove it in settlement_plan as well?

I have looked in the folder, but there is just a roman_town.txt and 2 barbarian txt files with 4 maps,
3 of these maps have .cas files but they are all named 'barbarian' so I figured it couldn't have anything to do with the Roman Minor City?

The roman_town.txt file doesn't have the roman_small_plinth building I tried to remove.

[Thor the Bassist]

Oh just from descr_settlement_plan.txt actually, how can I remove it in settlement_plan as well?

I have looked in the folder, but there is just a roman_town.txt and 2 barbarian txt files with 4 maps,
3 of these maps have .cas files but they are all named 'barbarian' so I figured it couldn't have anything to do with the Roman Minor City?

The roman_town.txt file doesn't have the roman_small_plinth building I tried to remove.

You might need to get it out of a pack somewhere.

[Wundai]

Ok, I'll see if I can find anything in the RTW packs.